I'm running a version of this with a few variations. I've got a pretty big collection, but I was missing several of the cantrips, and all of the fetchlands. I'm running Millikin since I'm not going to get to shuffle my library as much. I'm also running Magmatic Insight, which has been really nice if I draw it late, and not terrible if I draw it early as long as I already have blue available.
Success has been variable. Without the constant shuffling, and draw from the fetchlands things like Brainstorm and Future Sight aren't nearly as good. Delve is also worse, but I'm having to run more of it including Temporal Trespass.
My suggestion to people trying to run this is that it's an extremely tight list. You can sub the cantrips, but trying to do it without fetchlands is rough.
I'm running a version of this with a few variations. I've got a pretty big collection, but I was missing several of the cantrips, and all of the fetchlands. I'm running Millikin since I'm not going to get to shuffle my library as much. I'm also running Magmatic Insight, which has been really nice if I draw it late, and not terrible if I draw it early as long as I already have blue available.
Success has been variable. Without the constant shuffling, and draw from the fetchlands things like Brainstorm and Future Sight aren't nearly as good. Delve is also worse, but I'm having to run more of it including Temporal Trespass.
My suggestion to people trying to run this is that it's an extremely tight list. You can sub the cantrips, but trying to do it without fetchlands is rough.
Given how cheap most of the spells in this list are it means that turns can be a LOT more color intensive as there is a lot less colorless mana being paid. Having dual lands also gives more capability of casting the red spells considering I have unbalanced the landbase intentionally due to how blue the spells of this deck are. The landbase for this list is expensive and harder to budget out for sure.
I often find the Future Sight effects strong even without taking shuffles into account. We have so many cheap draw a card effects in the deck that I often cast from the top of my deck until I brick or don't want to cast my top card and then play draw from my hand to get past it. Its fairly normal for me to get 5+ free cards off of my deck in a turn with Future Sight not to mention that a lot of those cards put more cards into my hand.
I like this deck a lot, I just feel like I have run into a situation where there aren't a lot of other cards to try out. This deck is so focused on cheap 1-2 mana spells especially focusing on draw that I feel the card pool can be solved kind of quickly. The trick to the deck seems more on the front of what removal and what support cards we want to run. I have my own preference but that isn't to say that everyone feels the same. Every meta is different after all.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Great to see some activity in the topic again. Always nice to hear some other insights. I don't use a lot of shoffling effects either. Figured i don't need that effect ever to be honest.
What i do hold valuable is ways to reshuffle the graveyard into the deck for the obvious risk of decking myself. I do have a copy of Laboratory Maniac but havn't get around to try it yet.
What i have been willing to do instead lately is try Isochron Scepter.
Unfortunately, it didn't get here on time for the games tonight, but the general idea is sinple but effective. Imprint a 2cmc drawspell or counterspell and take it from there. Notice the copy gets cast, so bonus points on Jori-En synergy right there.
For the sake of consitency, i've dropped two 3cmc spells in favor for good ol' Counterspell and Think Twice.
Great to see some activity in the topic again. Always nice to hear some other insights. I don't use a lot of shoffling effects either. Figured i don't need that effect ever to be honest.
What i do hold valuable is ways to reshuffle the graveyard into the deck for the obvious risk of decking myself. I do have a copy of Laboratory Maniac but havn't get around to try it yet.
What i have been willing to do instead lately is try Isochron Scepter.
Unfortunately, it didn't get here on time for the games tonight, but the general idea is sinple but effective. Imprint a 2cmc drawspell or counterspell and take it from there. Notice the copy gets cast, so bonus points on Jori-En synergy right there.
For the sake of consitency, i've dropped two 3cmc spells in favor for good ol' Counterspell and Think Twice.
I ran Isochron early on but I ended up eventually cutting it in part because I found it was a lot more to set up and use it than the spells I was trying to use. It is nice if you need more value like if you are running out of draw / card advantage but overall I found that my commander was filling the role for that better than Isochron was. The amount of mana I was spending to set up and cast cantrip spells felt a little heavy too as often I was paying 4 mana upfront to cast a 1 mana spell then there was the issue that people would freak out because its Isochron and it was doing something but it needs to activate essentially 2+ times before it pays for itself not to mention the amount of extra mana you are spending between casting it upfront so I found I needed to get away with like 3+ uses before it would be worthwhile. In the end, I found that it just wasn't that impressive for me and I cut it myself.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Dreadhorde Arcanist could be kind of sweet in this deck. I counted something like 21 viable targets assuming no buffing him. The hard part being that he is kind of fragile and we probably wont be buffing him or giving him evasion. I guess there is some question as well as to how he is different from something like Isochron Scepter but I potentially like him more sooner in the game where as I think he gets worse as the game goes on.
I don't know ultimately but I thought he was interesting for a deck like this.
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I like it as another potential snapcaster effect for most cantrips we play.
Unfortunately it has trample instead of haste. Haste would have made it possible to trigger Jori en and this would have made it that much better in the later game.
I guess it's finally time to part with Propaganda. I've got high hopes for Saheeli, Sublime Artificer as a natural fit for the deck.
I also think this would finally make me play Pyromancer's Goggles for that sweet sweet synergy with her and my wincons.
I guess it's finally time to part with Propaganda. I've got high hopes for Saheeli, Sublime Artificer as a natural fit for the deck.
I also think this would finally make me play Pyromancer's Goggles for that sweet sweet synergy with her and my wincons.
I think there are a lot of interesting cards in this set. Lots of the cards aren't clear and or straightforward as to how good they will be either so I plan to do a full dive on the set after everything gets spoiled which should be this Friday.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
For now, i'm allready very excited about the set. I have two sure fire inclusions for Jori-En in Saheeli and !!!Kefnet!!! and a bunch of options for other decks, including a brand new one
Wanted to report, last weekend i had such a sweet sweet win with Jori-En. I Took out 3 players at 26, 28 and 30life resp. With one big play over two turns.
Had to count my cards and mana carefully, deciding NOT to play a land on that given turn, i guess it was T7 or T8 and had been setting up for a while with Thought Vessel, Rhystic Study and Jori En, Ruin Diver in play.
Had 16 cards in hand when i played The Locust God, followed up by Fateful Showdown targetting the 28life player, but not before i drew from Jori-En. With 15cards in hand, i then cast Expansion // Explosion copying Fateful Showdown to wheel two times 14 cards, resulting in 28damage to the dome of the 28life player, all the while gaining me 28+1 hasty flying insects. 27 of which flew to the 26 life player (extra, just to dodge removal). Two down.
The last player was figuring out how to dodge that swarm of locusts, knowing very well i had lethal on board either way bar boardwipe. So he played a well timed Mirage Mirror and copying my on board Propaganda, the table goes nuts as this would be very hard beat trough with all those insects, except.... With the first hand i discarded, i discarded Past in Flames
Upon revealing the fact i could pull the same routine again the game was over.
This is by far the sweetest finish to date and it was a blast to play the deck again after not having done so in a few gamenights.
The new spoiler season also has me pretty excited for things to come. the newly spoiled Commence the Endgame also looks like a playable thing. At 6cmc it can produce one huge dumb body in the deck and netting a card, at instant speed! Seems good value.
This is my War of the Spark set review for Jori En. I tried to hit on most rare / mythic / interesting common or uncommon. I bolded card selections that seemed more viable or that I thought the card required more analysis or thought for.
RED
Chandra, Fire Artisan I think she transitions to commander poorly and is a value over time walker that favors lower life totals and less opponents. I am going to pass.
Cyclops Electromancer as a removal option, I think he costs too much mana and the body we get isn't really that important. Its probably better to just pass on him for spell based removal.
Dreadhorde Arcanist I think this guy is really cool, that being said.... I have concerns about him living through his attacks for this deck. I currently have over 20 one mana spells that he could recast though. He is going to be strongest when curving him in but given that he is so cheap and gets value on attack I think even when he is bad later in the game he is a cheap investment to get back a spell. I am...... hesitantly thinking I might try him out.
Finale of Promise so, we can fairly easily spend 1RR and cast 3 spells. I think this card does have more appeal to me than some of the others like Snapcaster Mage and or Mission Briefing in that its cost efficient and we can get 3 spells cast for 3-4 mana in most situations. My only concern is if we are going too far into graveyard tactics as there are a number of others and most of these graveyard spell casting effects don't really work together in that they exile spells.
Mizzium Tank its an odd attacker. Its cool that it can dodge creature wraths in being its a vehicle but the pump effect of it is just until end of turn which I don't think is good enough and its again kind of just a stat creature.
Neheb, Dreadhorde Champion I like the card filtering and mana generation aspects of him. Really, I could see myself exploring him more. I have really found filter effects to be powerful and having more mana also sounds kind of appealing.
Spellgorger Weird its like an odd inverse Taurean Mauler. Its just a stat creature which makes me think its not good enough.
BLUE
Fblthp, the Lost its a cool and interesting card. But I don't think it belongs here.
God-Eternal Kefnet I have had to put a lot of thought into my opinon of this card. I am currently running 42 Instant / Sorcery cards in my list so this card has a little bit over 1/3 chance to draw and copy the card I would draw for my turn. The cost reduction for that card is kind of minor given that half of those 42 spells are 1 mana spells. This is sort of card advantage plus free spellcasting on that 40 percent of the time. My problem is weighing in if that is enough and I think ultimately that it isn't. Its nice that its a 4 mana 4/5 flyer but it has no immediate effect on the board for me to take advantage of. Its slow to generate value and its still only going to hit that free value about 40% of the time. Its possible that you could make this effect better if you were to jam a bunch of extra turns in your deck because then you might be chaining a bunch of extra turns. It also gets better if you build a bunch of topdeck manipulation into the deck which is something that I really don't run because I draw heavily. I think overall, I am going to pass on this Kefnet. The value generation is sort of slow and it puts a little different priority on what spells I want to be revealing. I think ultimately you want to be hitting 4+ mana spells with Kefnet so that you are cost reducing those and getting a lot more value off of the free copy. In this deck I would be getting a copy of a 1-2 spell and missing out on the cost reduction. I just think that ultimately it doesn't give enough value fast enough for this deck. I think that Kefnet can and could be a great effect for spellslinger decks I just think you might want a little different deck composition for it to do its thing.
Jace, Wielder of Mysteries its a lab man wincon. Its not something I have really over felt that I need. Its probably less fragile than Lab Man in that its a walker instead of a creature.
Narset's Reversal interesting card, it could slow an opponent who is ramping or screw with some different effects but I am not really sure. It feels a little more like a card that a draw go permission control deck would run.
Silent Submersible it has no evasion so even though Jori en could power it, I think I am going to pass. It doesn't seem like it adds much of anything towards my strategy and goal.
Teferi's Time Twist its a nice flicker which could trigger ETBs or protect but given I have very few ETBs here its better for me to just run a counterspell than it would be for me to run this.
Invade the City So, I actually don't hate this effect. I could easily see this deck getting a 10/10 fairly early in the game for 3 mana. It is just a beater but its a beater from a spell being cast which has synergy with this deck. I think it could be a thing I guess is where I stand.
Ral, Storm Conduit I guess the real questions here are 1) how long do we plan for him to live? 2) How much value do we need to get from him before he pays for himself. I think that he does ok work. The spell copy effect is only worth 1-2 mana for this deck but even a single copy probably recovers spending a card on him. I like that he pings players and or walkers when we cast spells even though its only one target rather than each opponent. I think I am just going to be cautiously optimistic and see if I can manage to test him. The only real downsides I see with him seem to stem from him being a four mana investment but I think I can recover his value either the same turn or by the next turn which makes me want to test him.
Ral's Outburst I like everything this card does but find its mana cost to be maybe one higher than I would be willing to pay for the effect. I am probably going to pass for now just feeling like this card could cost one less and I would be interested for it in this deck but I understand where it stands from a constructed format standpoint.
Role Reversal hummmmmmmmmmmmm thats an interesting thought. I like how cheap it is and how versatile it is. Being able to swap a mana doubler with another player's propaganda might even be a reasonable play with this. I want to test this I think. The fact that it could interact with literally any type of permanent has me intrigued. Pushing the Cabal Coffers away from the black player or so many other clutch plays could all be very good.
Saheeli, Sublime Artificer The activated abilities on her seem like they could but rarely will come up. In a nutshell this is a planeswalker version of Young Pyromancer. To be honest, Young Pyromancer seems like he is somewhat low on my list of preferred spellslinger enablers so my concerns here is that she costs more mana and is probably more vulnerable to survive multiple turns. Commander is a format where its hard to get a value over time walker to stick to the board. I don't think its wrong to test her, I just am not at the point that I think that she is a stronger include of what we are looking at and considering right now.
COLORLESS
Karn, the Great Creator I think his value for commander is sticking to the board for multiple turns to deprive artifact value. It takes a defensive deck to protect him which I don't really intend to be.
Ugin, the Ineffable where you really want this guy is a deck with a lot of colorless effects and or one that needs card advantage. That deck isn't this deck.
LANDS
Blast Zone I like this effect, but that said this deck is extremely greedy so I find that I am rarely able to keep mana up or much mana at least. Its possible I might do some testing with this though as an option to have removal options for enchantments, walkers, and artifacts in that this doesn't take up a lot of room. The issue is how color demanding this deck is so I try to keep my colorless lands down. I might test it, I might not for this deck. I have some other decks with less colors that it likely will work its way into.
Emergence Zone I like the effect just not that it requires sacrificing a land making it a one time effect. It could maybe be good to push out a token army at the end of my opponents turns. I think its kind of narrow though.
Karn's Bastion this isn't a deck that proliferate really matters.
So, I guess in conclusion I think there are a number of very interesting cards from this set. I want to do some testing with a number of them but I also think that there are a lot of them that are very borderline from this set that could go either way. My intentions as of right now are to get testing in for Dreadhorde Arcanist, Finale of Promise, Ral, Storm Conduit, and Role Reversal. I have no clue where I might make room for these cards as of right now so I won't commit to any changes right this moment but those are the cards at the front of the pack in my mind at least for this list.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Great and thorough list as Always! I'd like to express my views on some of the cards i would consider for the deck or not and why.
I won't go over all options mentioned above.
Red Finale of Promise: First of all, i'm a big fan of the whole cycle in this set. 3 of the 5 will probably find a place somewhere in my EDH collection. The Red one seems fit for Jori-En. The only thing i dislike is the sorcery speed. I see this thing as a spell with a nice floor, but with very high ceiling. I'm used to having a lot of mana available and allready a fan of recasting Brass's Bounty on the same turn, copied preferably This thing makes it possible to do that more than once. Turns like that will win the game.
I'm not quite sure what i'd take out though.
Dreadhorde Arcanist: I like the design, but i'm not quite sure if it's what i want to be doing. We have no means of pumping it's power and while the number of 1cmc spells is pretty high, in my build it's still only 13%. I've said it before. This guy should have had Haste instead of Trample.
Neheb, Dreadhorde Champion: Awesome card, like other Neheb. They both could do serious work and make early plays like Finale of Promise possible. They are quite threathening and vulnerable though. I would rather go mono red with them and add more haste/protection i think.
Also, and this is a meta call. In my meta, the strenght of this deck is it's unobtrusiveness.
Blue Narset's Reversal: This card seems very flexible to me. It's instant speed protection, "copy/steal" spell (Similar to but not quite Wild Ricochet) and recursion of your own spell for only two mana. With the newly added Isochron Scepter in my deck this card is card advantage for 2 and could potentially do some work. I Will probably find a spot for it.
Commence the Endgame: 6cmc is high, but it's uncounterable draw two and create a potentially hoge body. I've had many situations where i had 10+ cards in hand.
Even without max hand size, a 6 mana uncounterable 7/7 with etb draw two is very good in my book.
Jace, Wielder of Mysteries: I;ve had some time to think on this one. It is basically Labman with some added utility. It has two relevant activated abilities, has two alternative wincons and it's protection for the life total in that it will make people attack jace instead of you. All this makes Jace strictly better. That said, i don't run Labman since decking myself is not an option with resuffling effects in my deck. I would cut those and add more wheels for these effects. I don't know if i want that though. Personal preference.
Finale of Revelation: To me, the worst of the cycle. Had it been an instant it would have been another story. Pass.
God-Eternal Kefnet: This card is bonkers. I could use two of them for two decks. One here, and another in a more top-deck-matters build.
In Jori-En It's a very good beater and has the potential to discount our biggest spells. My deck has only 18 potential targets, but they are all great when copied :). Note that the reveal is a MAY so no need to reveal anything relevant. I would only add it i i can cut some other supporting creature.
Multi
Saheeli, Sublime Artificer: This one i'm excited about. I've Always viewed the token producers and Ever-Watching Threshold and Propaganda as means to protect my life total untill i combo off. Rarely are the tokens wincons. Propaganda is probably the best of the bunch, but also way off theme. Saheeli, Sublime Artificer could be the best on theme replacement i can think of. Added bonus is she triggers of off non-creature spells.
The activated ability probably needs a little build around but using cheap rocks and the servo's as targets to change into cards like: Pyromancer's Goggles, Gilded Lotus, Psychosis Crawler, Guttersnipe et all or even Primal Amulet on crucial turns seems pretty strong.
Unfortunately you can't copy your opponent's stuff, though the ability is very flexible and has potential to be protection, ramp and reach in my build.
Ral, Storm Conduit: Missed this one. But looks like it could replace/exist next to Sentinel Tower. I like that it triggers on all turns no just your own. 6 Loyalty on the turn he comes down makes him pretty likely to survive to the next turn to harvest the value.
Role Reversal: This is an interesting card. Sorcery speed permanent removal and potential wincon.
Lands and Colorless
None to be honest.
Recap
EDH has become my primary way of playing magic over the course of last year, Love the way it makes me view new sets and this set in perticular has me pretty excited. There are cards that fit any of my EDH decks.
For Jori En, the cards i'm most likely to find a spot for are Narset's Reversal, Saheeli, Sublime Artificer and Finale of Promise.
Regarding new Ral, there is some talk on the old internet about infinite combo's with ral and various Fork effects. From the looks of it, this deck could make use of that but i wonder, is it worth it?
How much fork effects should we have to run to make this viable next to Pyromancer's Goggles and Primal Wellspring?
Hi guy, I´m new to the Jori En as commander, i was playing SmauG list but I have some troubles with my store meta cause there's a heavy combo meta like tasigur flash hulk, what can I do to fight with them since the deck is more like non-combo I need some advice to improve my plays, thanks for the lists
Let me start by saying, good to hear you picked up the deck! Please feel free to contribute in this topic and share more of your experiences.
Next, your meta. I hear you say your game store has a lot of Tasigur Flash Hulk combo stuff going on. To me this sounds like way more competitive a meta than what I play in.
I'd say this is a casual to focussed (75%, but i find it very hard to rate decks) deck and I play it on casual tables with friends. I'm used to durdling around until i make my big play (or not) and have some interaction in the proces. Finishing is unlikely to happen anywhere before turn6 or so and most finishing plays feel like a big puzzle to solve, This gets easier with experience by playing the deck i guess.
In the end though i think, if cutthroat combo is what you're up against, my list doesn't suffice.
That's not to say it can't beat combo. You are in blue and you allready try to play mostly at instant speed, so you could try and tune more towards permission.
This deck can also profitably run Blood Moon effects if needed. Just adjust (blue)basics accordingly.
You could then run whatever tutors available next to the massive amount of card draw to get to your disruptive pieces.
Then there is new Ral with fork effects. The list can be tuned into a T4/5 combo deck if needed. This needs exploring but it's doable.
Regarding new Ral, there is some talk on the old internet about infinite combo's with ral and various Fork effects. From the looks of it, this deck could make use of that but i wonder, is it worth it?
How much fork effects should we have to run to make this viable next to Pyromancer's Goggles and Primal Wellspring?
Sorry for the delay, holiday weekend and all that.
Trinket Mage - I see you are still running this guy over Whir of Invention. I guess I am a bit interested to hear why. Your Trinket Mage package doesn't even look that deep to me. (I wrote this while looking at your list before reading the comments below. I think its very cuttable as it stands. If you wanted to keep it I would encourage to maybe find a 0-1 mana grave hate effect to keep it more viable and versatile. I think it could be cut though.)
Toothy, Imaginary Friend - its not in your list but when I saw Chasm Skulker I kind of made this jump and was curious if you wanted to run both, or maybe even Toothy instead of the Skulker. I don't really know the answer but thought I would just bring it up because it popped into my head.
Niv-Mizzet, The Firemind - interesting that you would resort to this Niv. I see the synergy with draw but he feels like you are getting like 1/3 of the power of niv 3.0 for this list. I guess maybe thats enough. I would be interested to hear how he has been for you.
Lightning Strike - My suggestion would be to replace it with Abrade for versatility. I have found that I essentially am never doming someone for three in this format. If you need the versatility to hit walkers then at least step it up to Incinerate which is a strictly better card.
Electrolyze - hows this working out for you? I love the card but it feels a little bulky as a three mana spell too often for me in commander.
Pyromancer's Goggles - Its not something I would really run myself but of my 42 spells only 8 of them are red and several of them like say Past in Flames would be irrelevant to cast twice (well it makes it harder to counter but meh). You do run more X mana red spells which I don't run so I guess there is that. I think I would still go to Swarm Intelligence with a lot better results.
Ral, Storm Conduit - he can infinite a fork effect but..... it won't really ever happen. The reason I say this is that he copies the next spell you cast so you would need to activate Ral's copy effect and then someone else would need to cast a spell that you can fork. You can't cast Fork without a target and any other spell you would cast to be able to fork would trigger Ral instead of the fork. So..... no you won't be infinite forking and even if you do somehow pull it off, its infinitely casting fork but its not actually triggering the on spellcast for anything because its just putting copies on the stack so it won't accomplish anything other than putting more forks on the stack but fork can't be cast on its own so there is another spell on the stack so you are not stuck in an infinite loop either. Its really not a thing from what I am seeing.
Hi guy, I´m new to the Jori En as commander, i was playing SmauG list but I have some troubles with my store meta cause there's a heavy combo meta like tasigur flash hulk, what can I do to fight with them since the deck is more like non-combo I need some advice to improve my plays, thanks for the lists
Welcome to Salvation forums posting! Thanks for your interest, I will do my best to outline some things that could be done to improve your games against decks like this. Please realize that SmauG and I are both coming at this deck from a 75% standpoint and mostly don't play against these decks so a lot of our suggestions will be hypothetical answers rather than experienced ones for that kind of environment.
Extra Turns - I am talking the 5 and 6 mana extra turns mostly focusing on the three variations of Time Warp, Temporal Manipulation, and Capture of Jingzhou. I did play some of these very early in my list being created and they were very powerful. I ended up cutting them because of bad feelings in my meta but honestly anytime I resolved one of these they usually moved the game towards ending. They trigger Jori En very well to draw additional cards and work very well with the token generators and a lot of the spellcast matters effects. I think this would be a good avenue to explore because assuming you get to cast them they let you advance your gameplan and buy you additional turns (literally) to try to close out the game.
Cheap Interaction - Keep your interaction cheap and instant speed where possible. Cut some of the more expensive interactions and go for cheap removal / counterspells. Both SmauG and I are running criminally low graveyard hate which you will probably find performs even better in the kind of environment you described. In my own list you will see some really cool and fun things like Firemind's Research / Future Sight / Possibility Storm. As things get more cutthroat combo you need to cut more of these things and have fast and brutal responses. When facing fast combo my suggestions usually tend to be to trim the list, make it lower curve with more instant speed responses and faster tempo ramp.
I think you are fine playing Jori En with fast combo but please understand that our lists aren't coming from that kind of environment so we can spitball some ideas for you but thats the best we can do. We built our decks from the ground up not in that kind of environment so its not a far shot to say that radical changes might be required. If you want to delve into using combos yourself we might be able to suggest a few assuming you are interested in racing rather than trying to interact and or slow them down. I think the closest psudo competitive thing I can think of from my list would just be adding the cheap extra turns but combos could be an option too.
Let me start by saying, good to hear you picked up the deck! Please feel free to contribute in this topic and share more of your experiences.
Next, your meta. I hear you say your game store has a lot of Tasigur Flash Hulk combo stuff going on. To me this sounds like way more competitive a meta than what I play in.
I'd say this is a casual to focussed (75%, but i find it very hard to rate decks) deck and I play it on casual tables with friends. I'm used to durdling around until i make my big play (or not) and have some interaction in the proces. Finishing is unlikely to happen anywhere before turn6 or so and most finishing plays feel like a big puzzle to solve, This gets easier with experience by playing the deck i guess.
In the end though i think, if cutthroat combo is what you're up against, my list doesn't suffice.
That's not to say it can't beat combo. You are in blue and you allready try to play mostly at instant speed, so you could try and tune more towards permission.
This deck can also profitably run Blood Moon effects if needed. Just adjust (blue)basics accordingly.
You could then run whatever tutors available next to the massive amount of card draw to get to your disruptive pieces.
Then there is new Ral with fork effects. The list can be tuned into a T4/5 combo deck if needed. This needs exploring but it's doable.
I am not sure this fork Ral idea checks out. I would have to hear more of it but it sounds like it has some basic flaws.
EDIT: I suppose I should resolve a few changes. I noticed I still don't have Mox Amber in my OP and I have made that change in paper for quite some time now so I should get some of this sorted out.
DECK CHANGES:
Mizzix's Mastery -> Finale of Promise I think Mizzix Mastery is fine, but my issue with it is if I draw it anywhere in the first like.... 8 turns I tend to horde the damn thing and think I need to cast like 20 spells from it to make it worthwhile. Its also like 8 freaking mana and I would never cast it for non overload which is kind of a shame. It ends games yea but I would rather work with something I am willing to cast earlier and puts less reliance on my graveyard and doesn't take so much mana. I like how fast the Finale should be active and I think it overall should be a much smoother experience on my end needing me to be less greedy overall.
Cackling Counterpart -> Role Reversal Overall, I like Cackling Counterpart but it can also be a little winmore. I love the versatility of what Role Reversal can do so I want to make room for that. I could deprive someone of their commander, move a problem enchantment around. It just seems so versatile I can't wait to get my hands on it.
Sword of Feast and Famine -> Ral, Storm Conduit I like F&F when it works. That said people have been willing to chump block with some really surprising things to keep me off of mana and my commander doesn't have any natural evasion. The mass untap can be incredibly strong but I find its unpredictable and overall it doesn't really work with the spellcast matters plan. Ral feels like similar mana to sword and a little more in line with the rest of the deck.
Thermo-Alchemist -> Mox Amber I made this change ages ago. The need to tap this guy for the damage puts him on a one turn delay over the others which has ended up being a big deal for me. I like how the Mox can drop the same turn as Jori En or other cards to trigger her draw and it gives me more mana quickly for no mana.
Sorry for the delay, holiday weekend and all that.
Trinket Mage - I see you are still running this guy over Whir of Invention. I guess I am a bit interested to hear why. Your Trinket Mage package doesn't even look that deep to me. (I wrote this while looking at your list before reading the comments below. I think its very cuttable as it stands. If you wanted to keep it I would encourage to maybe find a 0-1 mana grave hate effect to keep it more viable and versatile. I think it could be cut though.)
I do like the idea of Whir of Invention fill on of the slots though.
Toothy, Imaginary Friend - its not in your list but when I saw Chasm Skulker I kind of made this jump and was curious if you wanted to run both, or maybe even Toothy instead of the Skulker. I don't really know the answer but thought I would just bring it up because it popped into my head.
Without ways to blink/sac/abuse either creature, they both are a little lackluster to be completely honest.
Niv-Mizzet, The Firemind - interesting that you would resort to this Niv. I see the synergy with draw but he feels like you are getting like 1/3 of the power of niv 3.0 for this list. I guess maybe thats enough. I would be interested to hear how he has been for you.
Redundancy. I want as much payoff for drawing my deck as possible.
Lightning Strike - My suggestion would be to replace it with Abrade for versatility. I have found that I essentially am never doming someone for three in this format. If you need the versatility to hit walkers then at least step it up to Incinerate which is a strictly better card.
Electrolyze - hows this working out for you? I love the card but it feels a little bulky as a three mana spell too often for me in commander.
Pyromancer's Goggles - Its not something I would really run myself but of my 42 spells only 8 of them are red and several of them like say Past in Flames would be irrelevant to cast twice (well it makes it harder to counter but meh). You do run more X mana red spells which I don't run so I guess there is that. I think I would still go to Swarm Intelligence with a lot better results.
My finishers are all red spells. and putting two of them on the stack often mean i have protection from counterspells or give me the option to go off easier. Putting two copies of Brass's Bounty on the stack has won me games.
Ral, Storm Conduit - he can infinite a fork effect but..... it won't really ever happen. The reason I say this is that he copies the next spell you cast so you would need to activate Ral's copy effect and then someone else would need to cast a spell that you can fork. You can't cast Fork without a target and any other spell you would cast to be able to fork would trigger Ral instead of the fork. So..... no you won't be infinite forking and even if you do somehow pull it off, its infinitely casting fork but its not actually triggering the on spellcast for anything because its just putting copies on the stack so it won't accomplish anything other than putting more forks on the stack but fork can't be cast on its own so there is another spell on the stack so you are not stuck in an infinite loop either. Its really not a thing from what I am seeing.
You have misread Ral, Storm Conduit mate. This card triggers upon cast AND copy, so two fork effects and a single other spell go infinite. Cast Opt, copy with first Fork, then copy Fork with i.e. Expansion // Explosion and let the new copy of Fork copy Expansion // Explosion, Repeat. Fury Storm does it on its own with just one cast of our commander and any other spell. Ral, Storm Conduit's other abilities are just gravy, similar to Pyromancer's Goggles and Primal Wellspring and those have won me games.
The real question is, are the 2,3 and 4cmc instant speed copy spells worth it to run in this deck on their own. I kind of feel they do, and i've decided if i pull or trade Ral on prerelease i'm going to try it out and buy at least 4 more effects. I will cut Sentinel Tower and the Trinket Mage package for him.
Hi guy, I´m new to the Jori En as commander, i was playing SmauG list but I have some troubles with my store meta cause there's a heavy combo meta like tasigur flash hulk, what can I do to fight with them since the deck is more like non-combo I need some advice to improve my plays, thanks for the lists
Welcome to Salvation forums posting! Thanks for your interest, I will do my best to outline some things that could be done to improve your games against decks like this. Please realize that SmauG and I are both coming at this deck from a 75% standpoint and mostly don't play against these decks so a lot of our suggestions will be hypothetical answers rather than experienced ones for that kind of environment.
Extra Turns - I am talking the 5 and 6 mana extra turns mostly focusing on the three variations of Time Warp, Temporal Manipulation, and Capture of Jingzhou. I did play some of these very early in my list being created and they were very powerful. I ended up cutting them because of bad feelings in my meta but honestly anytime I resolved one of these they usually moved the game towards ending. They trigger Jori En very well to draw additional cards and work very well with the token generators and a lot of the spellcast matters effects. I think this would be a good avenue to explore because assuming you get to cast them they let you advance your gameplan and buy you additional turns (literally) to try to close out the game.
Cheap Interaction - Keep your interaction cheap and instant speed where possible. Cut some of the more expensive interactions and go for cheap removal / counterspells. Both SmauG and I are running criminally low graveyard hate which you will probably find performs even better in the kind of environment you described. In my own list you will see some really cool and fun things like Firemind's Research / Future Sight / Possibility Storm. As things get more cutthroat combo you need to cut more of these things and have fast and brutal responses. When facing fast combo my suggestions usually tend to be to trim the list, make it lower curve with more instant speed responses and faster tempo ramp.
I think you are fine playing Jori En with fast combo but please understand that our lists aren't coming from that kind of environment so we can spitball some ideas for you but thats the best we can do. We built our decks from the ground up not in that kind of environment so its not a far shot to say that radical changes might be required. If you want to delve into using combos yourself we might be able to suggest a few assuming you are interested in racing rather than trying to interact and or slow them down. I think the closest psudo competitive thing I can think of from my list would just be adding the cheap extra turns but combos could be an option too.
Let me start by saying, good to hear you picked up the deck! Please feel free to contribute in this topic and share more of your experiences.
Next, your meta. I hear you say your game store has a lot of Tasigur Flash Hulk combo stuff going on. To me this sounds like way more competitive a meta than what I play in.
I'd say this is a casual to focussed (75%, but i find it very hard to rate decks) deck and I play it on casual tables with friends. I'm used to durdling around until i make my big play (or not) and have some interaction in the proces. Finishing is unlikely to happen anywhere before turn6 or so and most finishing plays feel like a big puzzle to solve, This gets easier with experience by playing the deck i guess.
In the end though i think, if cutthroat combo is what you're up against, my list doesn't suffice.
That's not to say it can't beat combo. You are in blue and you allready try to play mostly at instant speed, so you could try and tune more towards permission.
This deck can also profitably run Blood Moon effects if needed. Just adjust (blue)basics accordingly.
You could then run whatever tutors available next to the massive amount of card draw to get to your disruptive pieces.
Then there is new Ral with fork effects. The list can be tuned into a T4/5 combo deck if needed. This needs exploring but it's doable.
I am not sure this fork Ral idea checks out. I would have to hear more of it but it sounds like it has some basic flaws.
Good to see you back up my advice on the deck to the new player. I'm very curious to hear more about the games he plays and what needs changing to fit it in a more competitive meta.
EDIT: I suppose I should resolve a few changes. I noticed I still don't have Mox Amber in my OP and I have made that change in paper for quite some time now so I should get some of this sorted out.
DECK CHANGES:
Mizzix's Mastery -> Finale of Promise I think Mizzix Mastery is fine, but my issue with it is if I draw it anywhere in the first like.... 8 turns I tend to horde the damn thing and think I need to cast like 20 spells from it to make it worthwhile. Its also like 8 freaking mana and I would never cast it for non overload which is kind of a shame. It ends games yea but I would rather work with something I am willing to cast earlier and puts less reliance on my graveyard and doesn't take so much mana. I like how fast the Finale should be active and I think it overall should be a much smoother experience on my end needing me to be less greedy overall.
Cackling Counterpart -> Role Reversal Overall, I like Cackling Counterpart but it can also be a little winmore. I love the versatility of what Role Reversal can do so I want to make room for that. I could deprive someone of their commander, move a problem enchantment around. It just seems so versatile I can't wait to get my hands on it.
Sword of Feast and Famine -> Ral, Storm Conduit I like F&F when it works. That said people have been willing to chump block with some really surprising things to keep me off of mana and my commander doesn't have any natural evasion. The mass untap can be incredibly strong but I find its unpredictable and overall it doesn't really work with the spellcast matters plan. Ral feels like similar mana to sword and a little more in line with the rest of the deck.
Thermo-Alchemist -> Mox Amber I made this change ages ago. The need to tap this guy for the damage puts him on a one turn delay over the others which has ended up being a big deal for me. I like how the Mox can drop the same turn as Jori En or other cards to trigger her draw and it gives me more mana quickly for no mana.
Lots of changes. Let me hear how you go with them!
I've never looked back on Mox Amber, it works wonders in this deck and am very happy i made the trade before the big spike
You have misread Ral, Storm Conduit mate. This card triggers upon cast AND copy, so two fork effects and a single other spell go infinite. Cast Opt, copy with first Fork, then copy Fork with i.e. Expansion // Explosion and let the new copy of Fork copy Expansion // Explosion, Repeat. Fury Storm does it on its own with just one cast of our commander and any other spell. Ral, Storm Conduit's other abilities are just gravy, similar to Pyromancer's Goggles and Primal Wellspring and those have won me games.
The real question is, are the 2,3 and 4cmc instant speed copy spells worth it to run in this deck on their own. I kind of feel they do, and i've decided if i pull or trade Ral on prerelease i'm going to try it out and buy at least 4 more effects. I will cut Sentinel Tower and the Trinket Mage package for him.
Ral, Storm Conduit oh ok so he does trigger to ping on spell copies for pinging. Still though, you need a third effect added to the mix to go infinite. If you add another fork into the fork party then yes, you go infinite. Its not a two card combo though which is what I thought you were saying.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Honestly, Forks aren't really that bad for this deck even without going infinite. The problem with most of the traditional forks is that we are talking about taking a 1 mana spell and using another card that costs twice as much to copy it which is the reason I have avoided them. Forks do have a lot of versatility though if you plan to keep them up with common versatility being 1) Destroy target thing 2) Ramp 3) Tutor. My biggest issue with forks though is that they play better into a draw / go mentality where you have mana dumps and or instant speed effects you regularly want to cast if you don't cast that effect.
I find when I play my own copy of this deck that I often use either all of my mana on my turn or 80% of it. I sometimes keep things like spot removal up but I tend to do it a little more reactively rather than being proactive thinking I always need it up unless the other things I am doing just arent that important. I often find with this deck that I spend a good portion of my mana casting a spell enabler and then follow it up emptying my sorcery speed spells from my hand to draw cards and trigger the spellcaster enabler.
Forks in my mind tend to be at their best when you regularly use them to copy more expensive spells and or big spells of your opponents. Cashing in a Fork on a big Exsanguinate for example would be a most excellent fork. My issue with them being that often if you get that to work you look back at the previous 6 turns you kept that spell and mana up without doing other things waiting for that to happen. In a lot of cases they feel more narrow to me than just running counterspells with the upside that you can use them on your own things but in this deck they seem like clunky versions of our good cards in a lot of cases.
Sorry if this rambled on, I ultimately often feel that forks don't work a lot more often than they do work. If you want to deliberately go infinite with it then thats fine but I think there is also a question of why not do other combos as well. I don't know that these combo pieces are really better or worse than other combos but I think its worth asking.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I always try to view things from the perspective of my own deck's strengths unless i would purposely build around abusing the strengts of others (which is not my cup of tea). In that regard, i'm looking for ways to make Forks viable within my own strategy.
I know my list runs spells i would gladly copy for two mana. But i agree that copying a cantrip or even a 2cmc spell can feel a little lackluster. It does however, always Trigger Jori En, Ruin Diver, so there's that.
Copying a big spell of an opponent is just icing on the cake by then.
The biggest problem, like you allready state, is keeping up mana with nothing to do. Like you, i almost always do something on my own turn, but whenever possible i try to trigger Jori En, Ruin Diver at least twice each round.
Most commander games are won by having and using the most resources each turn. So we could make use some good manasinks, especially early game. I'll have to look out for those. Guildmages spring to mind as some can also copy.
In the very beginning, i had Terrain Generator. But as the manabase got tighter and landcount smaller, this lost some value. It is however VERY good in UR with high basics count if you can use it once or twice a game. It also complements a more disruptive strategy with properly timed Blood Moon type effects.
I always try to view things from the perspective of my own deck's strengths unless i would purposely build around abusing the strengts of others (which is not my cup of tea). In that regard, i'm looking for ways to make Forks viable within my own strategy.
I know my list runs spells i would gladly copy for two mana. But i agree that copying a cantrip or even a 2cmc spell can feel a little lackluster. It does however, always Trigger Jori En, Ruin Diver, so there's that.
Copying a big spell of an opponent is just icing on the cake by then.
The biggest problem, like you allready state, is keeping up mana with nothing to do. Like you, i almost always do something on my own turn, but whenever possible i try to trigger Jori En, Ruin Diver at least twice each round.
Most commander games are won by having and using the most resources each turn. So we could make use some good manasinks, especially early game. I'll have to look out for those. Guildmages spring to mind as some can also copy.
In the very beginning, i had Terrain Generator. But as the manabase got tighter and landcount smaller, this lost some value. It is however VERY good in UR with high basics count if you can use it once or twice a game. It also complements a more disruptive strategy with properly timed Blood Moon type effects.
Yea I know what you mean. I often do try to push two instants to another players turn to draw again later from Jori En when I can but if my draw is coming in smooth sometimes it happens less.
I also toyed with Terrain Generator early on until I realized I essentially always needed all of my mana and I wanted as much of it to be colored and usually blue if possible. I did move to Walking Atlas but I can't think of a lot of clutch games with him yet.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I noticed you run Firemind's Research. This Seems like the kind of card that could serve as a flavorful manasink. Though it needs "charging". How has that card been working out thus far?
(Wish I could stop the endless tutoring of my playgroup in edh)
Success has been variable. Without the constant shuffling, and draw from the fetchlands things like Brainstorm and Future Sight aren't nearly as good. Delve is also worse, but I'm having to run more of it including Temporal Trespass.
My suggestion to people trying to run this is that it's an extremely tight list. You can sub the cantrips, but trying to do it without fetchlands is rough.
Given how cheap most of the spells in this list are it means that turns can be a LOT more color intensive as there is a lot less colorless mana being paid. Having dual lands also gives more capability of casting the red spells considering I have unbalanced the landbase intentionally due to how blue the spells of this deck are. The landbase for this list is expensive and harder to budget out for sure.
I often find the Future Sight effects strong even without taking shuffles into account. We have so many cheap draw a card effects in the deck that I often cast from the top of my deck until I brick or don't want to cast my top card and then play draw from my hand to get past it. Its fairly normal for me to get 5+ free cards off of my deck in a turn with Future Sight not to mention that a lot of those cards put more cards into my hand.
I like this deck a lot, I just feel like I have run into a situation where there aren't a lot of other cards to try out. This deck is so focused on cheap 1-2 mana spells especially focusing on draw that I feel the card pool can be solved kind of quickly. The trick to the deck seems more on the front of what removal and what support cards we want to run. I have my own preference but that isn't to say that everyone feels the same. Every meta is different after all.
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[Modern] Allies
What i do hold valuable is ways to reshuffle the graveyard into the deck for the obvious risk of decking myself. I do have a copy of Laboratory Maniac but havn't get around to try it yet.
What i have been willing to do instead lately is try Isochron Scepter.
Unfortunately, it didn't get here on time for the games tonight, but the general idea is sinple but effective. Imprint a 2cmc drawspell or counterspell and take it from there. Notice the copy gets cast, so bonus points on Jori-En synergy right there.
For the sake of consitency, i've dropped two 3cmc spells in favor for good ol' Counterspell and Think Twice.
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
I ran Isochron early on but I ended up eventually cutting it in part because I found it was a lot more to set up and use it than the spells I was trying to use. It is nice if you need more value like if you are running out of draw / card advantage but overall I found that my commander was filling the role for that better than Isochron was. The amount of mana I was spending to set up and cast cantrip spells felt a little heavy too as often I was paying 4 mana upfront to cast a 1 mana spell then there was the issue that people would freak out because its Isochron and it was doing something but it needs to activate essentially 2+ times before it pays for itself not to mention the amount of extra mana you are spending between casting it upfront so I found I needed to get away with like 3+ uses before it would be worthwhile. In the end, I found that it just wasn't that impressive for me and I cut it myself.
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And just like that, Jace got apoiled.
This seems like a great, on theme, secondary wincon.
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
I don't know ultimately but I thought he was interesting for a deck like this.
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[Modern] Allies
Unfortunately it has trample instead of haste. Haste would have made it possible to trigger Jori en and this would have made it that much better in the later game.
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
I also think this would finally make me play Pyromancer's Goggles for that sweet sweet synergy with her and my wincons.
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
I think there are a lot of interesting cards in this set. Lots of the cards aren't clear and or straightforward as to how good they will be either so I plan to do a full dive on the set after everything gets spoiled which should be this Friday.
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For now, i'm allready very excited about the set. I have two sure fire inclusions for Jori-En in Saheeli and !!!Kefnet!!! and a bunch of options for other decks, including a brand new one
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
Had to count my cards and mana carefully, deciding NOT to play a land on that given turn, i guess it was T7 or T8 and had been setting up for a while with Thought Vessel, Rhystic Study and Jori En, Ruin Diver in play.
Had 16 cards in hand when i played The Locust God, followed up by Fateful Showdown targetting the 28life player, but not before i drew from Jori-En. With 15cards in hand, i then cast Expansion // Explosion copying Fateful Showdown to wheel two times 14 cards, resulting in 28damage to the dome of the 28life player, all the while gaining me 28+1 hasty flying insects. 27 of which flew to the 26 life player (extra, just to dodge removal). Two down.
The last player was figuring out how to dodge that swarm of locusts, knowing very well i had lethal on board either way bar boardwipe. So he played a well timed Mirage Mirror and copying my on board Propaganda, the table goes nuts as this would be very hard beat trough with all those insects, except.... With the first hand i discarded, i discarded Past in Flames
Upon revealing the fact i could pull the same routine again the game was over.
This is by far the sweetest finish to date and it was a blast to play the deck again after not having done so in a few gamenights.
The new spoiler season also has me pretty excited for things to come. the newly spoiled Commence the Endgame also looks like a playable thing. At 6cmc it can produce one huge dumb body in the deck and netting a card, at instant speed! Seems good value.
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
RED
COLORLESS
LANDS
So, I guess in conclusion I think there are a number of very interesting cards from this set. I want to do some testing with a number of them but I also think that there are a lot of them that are very borderline from this set that could go either way. My intentions as of right now are to get testing in for Dreadhorde Arcanist, Finale of Promise, Ral, Storm Conduit, and Role Reversal. I have no clue where I might make room for these cards as of right now so I won't commit to any changes right this moment but those are the cards at the front of the pack in my mind at least for this list.
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I won't go over all options mentioned above.
Red
Finale of Promise: First of all, i'm a big fan of the whole cycle in this set. 3 of the 5 will probably find a place somewhere in my EDH collection. The Red one seems fit for Jori-En. The only thing i dislike is the sorcery speed. I see this thing as a spell with a nice floor, but with very high ceiling. I'm used to having a lot of mana available and allready a fan of recasting Brass's Bounty on the same turn, copied preferably This thing makes it possible to do that more than once. Turns like that will win the game.
I'm not quite sure what i'd take out though.
Dreadhorde Arcanist: I like the design, but i'm not quite sure if it's what i want to be doing. We have no means of pumping it's power and while the number of 1cmc spells is pretty high, in my build it's still only 13%. I've said it before. This guy should have had Haste instead of Trample.
Neheb, Dreadhorde Champion: Awesome card, like other Neheb. They both could do serious work and make early plays like Finale of Promise possible. They are quite threathening and vulnerable though. I would rather go mono red with them and add more haste/protection i think.
Also, and this is a meta call. In my meta, the strenght of this deck is it's unobtrusiveness.
Blue
Narset's Reversal: This card seems very flexible to me. It's instant speed protection, "copy/steal" spell (Similar to but not quite Wild Ricochet) and recursion of your own spell for only two mana. With the newly added Isochron Scepter in my deck this card is card advantage for 2 and could potentially do some work. I Will probably find a spot for it.
Commence the Endgame: 6cmc is high, but it's uncounterable draw two and create a potentially hoge body. I've had many situations where i had 10+ cards in hand.
Even without max hand size, a 6 mana uncounterable 7/7 with etb draw two is very good in my book.
Jace, Wielder of Mysteries: I;ve had some time to think on this one. It is basically Labman with some added utility. It has two relevant activated abilities, has two alternative wincons and it's protection for the life total in that it will make people attack jace instead of you. All this makes Jace strictly better. That said, i don't run Labman since decking myself is not an option with resuffling effects in my deck. I would cut those and add more wheels for these effects. I don't know if i want that though. Personal preference.
Finale of Revelation: To me, the worst of the cycle. Had it been an instant it would have been another story. Pass.
God-Eternal Kefnet: This card is bonkers. I could use two of them for two decks. One here, and another in a more top-deck-matters build.
In Jori-En It's a very good beater and has the potential to discount our biggest spells. My deck has only 18 potential targets, but they are all great when copied :). Note that the reveal is a MAY so no need to reveal anything relevant. I would only add it i i can cut some other supporting creature.
Multi
Saheeli, Sublime Artificer: This one i'm excited about. I've Always viewed the token producers and Ever-Watching Threshold and Propaganda as means to protect my life total untill i combo off. Rarely are the tokens wincons.
Propaganda is probably the best of the bunch, but also way off theme. Saheeli, Sublime Artificer could be the best on theme replacement i can think of. Added bonus is she triggers of off non-creature spells.
The activated ability probably needs a little build around but using cheap rocks and the servo's as targets to change into cards like: Pyromancer's Goggles, Gilded Lotus, Psychosis Crawler, Guttersnipe et all or even Primal Amulet on crucial turns seems pretty strong.
Unfortunately you can't copy your opponent's stuff, though the ability is very flexible and has potential to be protection, ramp and reach in my build.
Ral, Storm Conduit: Missed this one. But looks like it could replace/exist next to Sentinel Tower. I like that it triggers on all turns no just your own. 6 Loyalty on the turn he comes down makes him pretty likely to survive to the next turn to harvest the value.
Role Reversal: This is an interesting card. Sorcery speed permanent removal and potential wincon.
Lands and Colorless
None to be honest.
Recap
EDH has become my primary way of playing magic over the course of last year, Love the way it makes me view new sets and this set in perticular has me pretty excited. There are cards that fit any of my EDH decks.
For Jori En, the cards i'm most likely to find a spot for are Narset's Reversal, Saheeli, Sublime Artificer and Finale of Promise.
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
3 Jori En, Ruin Diver
Land
12 Island
5 Mountain
1 Command Tower
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Arid Mesa
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Great Furnace
1 Lonely Sandbar
1 Forgotten Cave
1 Steam Vents
1 Shivan Reef
1 Cascade Bluffs
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Temple of Epiphany
1 Izzet Boilerworks
1 Riptide Loboratory
1 Reliquary Tower
Creatures
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Young Pyromancer
2 Firebrand Archer
2 Electrostatic Field
3 Chasm Skulker
3 Guttersnipe
3 Trinket Mage
4 Murmuring Mystic
4 Talrand, Sky Summoner
5 Docent of Perfection
5 Azami, Lady of Scrolls
5 Psychosis Crawler
6 Consecrated Sphinx
6 Niv-Mizzet, The Firemind
6 Niv-Mizzet, Parun
6 The Locust God
1 Faithless Looting
1 Preordain
1 Ponder
1 Serum Visions
1 Gitaxian Probe
3 Finale of Promise
4 Past in Flames
7 Brass's Bounty
Instant
1 Brainstorm
1 Opt
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Peek
2 Lightning Strike
2 Arcane Denial
2 Radical Idea
2 Think Twice
2 Expansion // Explosion
2 Mission Briefing
2 Counterspell
2 Fall of the Titans
3 Chaos Warp
3 Wizards Lightning
3 Electrolyze
3 Frantic Search
3 Comet Storm
4 Chemister's Insight
4 Fateful Showdown
4 Commit // Memory
4 Cryptic Command
5 Mystic Confluence
7 Cyclonic Rift
0 Mox Amber
1 Skullclamp
1 Wayfarer's Bauble
1 Expedition Map
2 Isochron Scepter
2 Sapphire Medallion
2 Sky Diamond
2 Coldsteel Heart
2 Izzet Signet
2 Thought Vessel
4 Primal Amulet
4 Sentinel Tower
5 Gilded Lotus
Enchantment
3 Rhystic Study
3 Ever-Watching Threshold
6 Thousand Year Storm
Planeswalker
3 Saheeli, Sublime Artificer
Currently i'm trying to find room for Pyromancer's Goggles and Ral, Storm Conduit and with that i'm contemplating on dropping the small Trinket Mage/Expedition Map package to go with the wizards and Riptide Laboratory. Finding that land has proven to be very worthwile though.
Regarding new Ral, there is some talk on the old internet about infinite combo's with ral and various Fork effects. From the looks of it, this deck could make use of that but i wonder, is it worth it?
How much fork effects should we have to run to make this viable next to Pyromancer's Goggles and Primal Wellspring?
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
Next, your meta. I hear you say your game store has a lot of Tasigur Flash Hulk combo stuff going on. To me this sounds like way more competitive a meta than what I play in.
I'd say this is a casual to focussed (75%, but i find it very hard to rate decks) deck and I play it on casual tables with friends. I'm used to durdling around until i make my big play (or not) and have some interaction in the proces. Finishing is unlikely to happen anywhere before turn6 or so and most finishing plays feel like a big puzzle to solve, This gets easier with experience by playing the deck i guess.
In the end though i think, if cutthroat combo is what you're up against, my list doesn't suffice.
That's not to say it can't beat combo. You are in blue and you allready try to play mostly at instant speed, so you could try and tune more towards permission.
This deck can also profitably run Blood Moon effects if needed. Just adjust (blue)basics accordingly.
You could then run whatever tutors available next to the massive amount of card draw to get to your disruptive pieces.
Then there is new Ral with fork effects. The list can be tuned into a T4/5 combo deck if needed. This needs exploring but it's doable.
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
Sorry for the delay, holiday weekend and all that.
Trinket Mage - I see you are still running this guy over Whir of Invention. I guess I am a bit interested to hear why. Your Trinket Mage package doesn't even look that deep to me. (I wrote this while looking at your list before reading the comments below. I think its very cuttable as it stands. If you wanted to keep it I would encourage to maybe find a 0-1 mana grave hate effect to keep it more viable and versatile. I think it could be cut though.)
Toothy, Imaginary Friend - its not in your list but when I saw Chasm Skulker I kind of made this jump and was curious if you wanted to run both, or maybe even Toothy instead of the Skulker. I don't really know the answer but thought I would just bring it up because it popped into my head.
Niv-Mizzet, The Firemind - interesting that you would resort to this Niv. I see the synergy with draw but he feels like you are getting like 1/3 of the power of niv 3.0 for this list. I guess maybe thats enough. I would be interested to hear how he has been for you.
Lightning Strike - My suggestion would be to replace it with Abrade for versatility. I have found that I essentially am never doming someone for three in this format. If you need the versatility to hit walkers then at least step it up to Incinerate which is a strictly better card.
Electrolyze - hows this working out for you? I love the card but it feels a little bulky as a three mana spell too often for me in commander.
Pyromancer's Goggles - Its not something I would really run myself but of my 42 spells only 8 of them are red and several of them like say Past in Flames would be irrelevant to cast twice (well it makes it harder to counter but meh). You do run more X mana red spells which I don't run so I guess there is that. I think I would still go to Swarm Intelligence with a lot better results.
Ral, Storm Conduit - he can infinite a fork effect but..... it won't really ever happen. The reason I say this is that he copies the next spell you cast so you would need to activate Ral's copy effect and then someone else would need to cast a spell that you can fork. You can't cast Fork without a target and any other spell you would cast to be able to fork would trigger Ral instead of the fork. So..... no you won't be infinite forking and even if you do somehow pull it off, its infinitely casting fork but its not actually triggering the on spellcast for anything because its just putting copies on the stack so it won't accomplish anything other than putting more forks on the stack but fork can't be cast on its own so there is another spell on the stack so you are not stuck in an infinite loop either. Its really not a thing from what I am seeing.
Welcome to Salvation forums posting! Thanks for your interest, I will do my best to outline some things that could be done to improve your games against decks like this. Please realize that SmauG and I are both coming at this deck from a 75% standpoint and mostly don't play against these decks so a lot of our suggestions will be hypothetical answers rather than experienced ones for that kind of environment.
Extra Turns - I am talking the 5 and 6 mana extra turns mostly focusing on the three variations of Time Warp, Temporal Manipulation, and Capture of Jingzhou. I did play some of these very early in my list being created and they were very powerful. I ended up cutting them because of bad feelings in my meta but honestly anytime I resolved one of these they usually moved the game towards ending. They trigger Jori En very well to draw additional cards and work very well with the token generators and a lot of the spellcast matters effects. I think this would be a good avenue to explore because assuming you get to cast them they let you advance your gameplan and buy you additional turns (literally) to try to close out the game.
Cheap Interaction - Keep your interaction cheap and instant speed where possible. Cut some of the more expensive interactions and go for cheap removal / counterspells. Both SmauG and I are running criminally low graveyard hate which you will probably find performs even better in the kind of environment you described. In my own list you will see some really cool and fun things like Firemind's Research / Future Sight / Possibility Storm. As things get more cutthroat combo you need to cut more of these things and have fast and brutal responses. When facing fast combo my suggestions usually tend to be to trim the list, make it lower curve with more instant speed responses and faster tempo ramp.
I think you are fine playing Jori En with fast combo but please understand that our lists aren't coming from that kind of environment so we can spitball some ideas for you but thats the best we can do. We built our decks from the ground up not in that kind of environment so its not a far shot to say that radical changes might be required. If you want to delve into using combos yourself we might be able to suggest a few assuming you are interested in racing rather than trying to interact and or slow them down. I think the closest psudo competitive thing I can think of from my list would just be adding the cheap extra turns but combos could be an option too.
I am not sure this fork Ral idea checks out. I would have to hear more of it but it sounds like it has some basic flaws.
EDIT: I suppose I should resolve a few changes. I noticed I still don't have Mox Amber in my OP and I have made that change in paper for quite some time now so I should get some of this sorted out.
DECK CHANGES:
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[Modern] Allies
Trinket Mage is part of the wizards package and combo's very nicely with Expedition Map which in turn finds Riptide Laboratory which in turn can abuse or protect Trintet Mage et al. It's a little clunky but it works. I consider Riptide Laboratory as the best utility land for the deck.
Cutting Trinket Mage would result in cutting Expedition Map and probably the land too.
Elixir of Immortality was allready cut to try Isochron Scepter and i've tought about adding either Grafdigger's Cage or Day's Undoing as grave hate piece and emergency brake.
I do like the idea of Whir of Invention fill on of the slots though.
Without ways to blink/sac/abuse either creature, they both are a little lackluster to be completely honest.
Redundancy. I want as much payoff for drawing my deck as possible.
Just burn spells that have won me the game. These are finishers when going of with Thousand-Year Storm
I can see why Incinerate is better thatn Lightning Strike. Electrolyze is just a pet card of mine and i love it to bits
My finishers are all red spells. and putting two of them on the stack often mean i have protection from counterspells or give me the option to go off easier. Putting two copies of Brass's Bounty on the stack has won me games.
You have misread Ral, Storm Conduit mate. This card triggers upon cast AND copy, so two fork effects and a single other spell go infinite. Cast Opt, copy with first Fork, then copy Fork with i.e. Expansion // Explosion and let the new copy of Fork copy Expansion // Explosion, Repeat. Fury Storm does it on its own with just one cast of our commander and any other spell.
Ral, Storm Conduit's other abilities are just gravy, similar to Pyromancer's Goggles and Primal Wellspring and those have won me games.
The real question is, are the 2,3 and 4cmc instant speed copy spells worth it to run in this deck on their own. I kind of feel they do, and i've decided if i pull or trade Ral on prerelease i'm going to try it out and buy at least 4 more effects. I will cut Sentinel Tower and the Trinket Mage package for him.
Good to see you back up my advice on the deck to the new player. I'm very curious to hear more about the games he plays and what needs changing to fit it in a more competitive meta.
Lots of changes. Let me hear how you go with them!
I've never looked back on Mox Amber, it works wonders in this deck and am very happy i made the trade before the big spike
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
Ral, Storm Conduit oh ok so he does trigger to ping on spell copies for pinging. Still though, you need a third effect added to the mix to go infinite. If you add another fork into the fork party then yes, you go infinite. Its not a two card combo though which is what I thought you were saying.
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[Modern] Allies
I currently have:
Primal Wellspring and Expansion // Explosion
add to that:
Pyromancer's Goggles, Twincast, Reverberate and the best one, Increasing Vengeance. If budget allows, also take Fork.
After that you get Reiterate and Fury Storm which probably is a must-include by then.
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
Honestly, Forks aren't really that bad for this deck even without going infinite. The problem with most of the traditional forks is that we are talking about taking a 1 mana spell and using another card that costs twice as much to copy it which is the reason I have avoided them. Forks do have a lot of versatility though if you plan to keep them up with common versatility being 1) Destroy target thing 2) Ramp 3) Tutor. My biggest issue with forks though is that they play better into a draw / go mentality where you have mana dumps and or instant speed effects you regularly want to cast if you don't cast that effect.
I find when I play my own copy of this deck that I often use either all of my mana on my turn or 80% of it. I sometimes keep things like spot removal up but I tend to do it a little more reactively rather than being proactive thinking I always need it up unless the other things I am doing just arent that important. I often find with this deck that I spend a good portion of my mana casting a spell enabler and then follow it up emptying my sorcery speed spells from my hand to draw cards and trigger the spellcaster enabler.
Forks in my mind tend to be at their best when you regularly use them to copy more expensive spells and or big spells of your opponents. Cashing in a Fork on a big Exsanguinate for example would be a most excellent fork. My issue with them being that often if you get that to work you look back at the previous 6 turns you kept that spell and mana up without doing other things waiting for that to happen. In a lot of cases they feel more narrow to me than just running counterspells with the upside that you can use them on your own things but in this deck they seem like clunky versions of our good cards in a lot of cases.
Sorry if this rambled on, I ultimately often feel that forks don't work a lot more often than they do work. If you want to deliberately go infinite with it then thats fine but I think there is also a question of why not do other combos as well. I don't know that these combo pieces are really better or worse than other combos but I think its worth asking.
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[Modern] Allies
I know my list runs spells i would gladly copy for two mana. But i agree that copying a cantrip or even a 2cmc spell can feel a little lackluster. It does however, always Trigger Jori En, Ruin Diver, so there's that.
Copying a big spell of an opponent is just icing on the cake by then.
The biggest problem, like you allready state, is keeping up mana with nothing to do. Like you, i almost always do something on my own turn, but whenever possible i try to trigger Jori En, Ruin Diver at least twice each round.
Most commander games are won by having and using the most resources each turn. So we could make use some good manasinks, especially early game. I'll have to look out for those. Guildmages spring to mind as some can also copy.
In the very beginning, i had Terrain Generator. But as the manabase got tighter and landcount smaller, this lost some value. It is however VERY good in UR with high basics count if you can use it once or twice a game. It also complements a more disruptive strategy with properly timed Blood Moon type effects.
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
Yea I know what you mean. I often do try to push two instants to another players turn to draw again later from Jori En when I can but if my draw is coming in smooth sometimes it happens less.
I also toyed with Terrain Generator early on until I realized I essentially always needed all of my mana and I wanted as much of it to be colored and usually blue if possible. I did move to Walking Atlas but I can't think of a lot of clutch games with him yet.
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[Modern] Allies
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -