Curiosity seems like it would be really good with your pingers. Maybe run additional similar cards for redundancy as well.
Also Forbid, seems like you might have enough cards to fuel that.
Curiosity - that's a very interesting idea. I do also have Niv-Mizzet, Parun in the list but given how I play I would never set that up myself. I guess my only real concern is we are talking about cards here that would be added for the intent purpose of combining with one of four cards in the list. I think the idea of Curiosity looks really cool and sounds amazing when you would get it set up but I also think that its kind of incredibly narrow in that it seems like not a very good concept outside of getting one of those four cards into play and to stick. I just wonder if we have enough redundancy and targets to justify it even though it does sound SUPER cool if you got that set up. I checked into the rules and the response I got back is that these creatures will draw a card per opponent hit rather than one / spellcast so that does sound promising but I guess I will continue to question the targeting options for this deck for this type of effect.
Forbid - I prefer it more myself in a draw / go style of list if at all. Keeping three mana up turn after turn to keep this as an option can be challenging for this deck because I constantly have things to do with my mana. There are turns where I don't have an issue doing that but I find that I play a lot of my mana on my turn with this deck as of right now. If it was cheaper to cast it might be a different case but I think its a little more reactive than I am currently trying to be with this deck. I have a lot of proactive things I am trying to do between the spellcast enablers and casting spells to cash in on their value generation quickly as well. On occasion I will keep up response options but they tend to be 1-2 mana things with a backup plan of potentially casting some cantrips or answer + cantrip. Being three mana for one spell that I have to have ready in response to a problem can be a problem. Something like Chaos Warp I could have ready in a pinch but I can also untap and answer a problem potentially if I didn't have the mana up beforehand to use for a counterspell which is why I have opted to run counter light in this list so far.
This all said, I don't think that either of these cards / concepts are bad ideas. I think both of these do have promise but right now, I am probably going to pass on them. If you can land Curiosity on one of the pingers, it absolutely does sound glorious I just question the count of pingers we have and the reliance on those few cards for this effect.
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It's not like Curiosity is totally dead without a pinger. Strap it on your commander and attack once and then it's basically a cantrip.
I will keep it in mind. Some of my concern is that I need to connect for its value and my commander has no evasion. There is also the concern that it adds more incentive to remove her as I try to add extra value to her via this kind of thing. I think the potential of curiosity is very high but I also think that the average use is is a little questionable.
GAME RECAP:
I did get to play a game last night where I did manage to see an opening hand Sword of the Animist which was fairly good for me. I ended up hitting several extra lands as I think I got an extra 4-6 lands from it over the course of the game. There were several times where I could have been chump blocked but the bump in size kept her alive and the value being generated on attack kept chump blocking from being a problem.
The Locust God showed up and did some serious work. The overall stickiness of that card was really great yesterday as he fought me through a few wraths giving me blockers and attackers. Ultimately I did power through on something like my third time playing him. I finished off said game with Locus God + Niv-Mizzet, Parun finally resolving an overloaded Mizzix's Mastery for the win on the same turn I played Niv Mizzet. There were like 20+ spells in my graveyard when I closed it out.
I got to see a little more of Arclight Phoenix in said game as well. It wasn't really huge but it did buy me a repeat blocker as well as something to cast through counter magic that I knew of thanks to a Peek effect. It did end up auto rezing several times and I actually did use it to trade with attackers a few times which I found amusing. I had the option to try to filter it in that game but I suspected I would eat counter magic if I had tried at the time so I ended up hard casting it. I still don't think I would call it amazing but I will say I think its very very easy to resurrect it in this list and thus far I still think its a worthy include but far from something necessary to play this deck. I will continue to keep an eye on what it does for me and how useful I find it but so far I would say its been fairly good for me. The key to the power of this card seems to be in filtering / discarding it and getting it back for free but I was still fairly happy in the situation this game where I cast it (given known counter magic).
I feel like I didn't get much of an opportunity to test most of my recent changes so I guess I will have to get more testing moving forward. I did get to T4 attack with Sword of the Animist on Jori En + Chart a Course post combat main and that was spicy I suppose. I also managed to find Firemind's Research super late in the game but it was kind of as I was spinning up to end the game so I opted to do relevant things then rather than play it.
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I'm in the process of doing some changes, like you said Peek effects are good as a tool and cantrip, so i got it and probe. Have see what i'll cut though.
We'll play several games next friday, will try to report some.
I'm in the process of doing some changes, like you said Peek effects are good as a tool and cantrip, so i got it and probe. Have see what i'll cut though.
We'll play several games next friday, will try to report some.
Sounds good let me know how it goes.
Skullclamp - my only concern is that it seems a little winmore in that if its good, its good because we have a token maker in play and probably made a several tokens. In that kind of setup I feel like I am probably already doing alright but I guess it depends on the game state. I just feel like if the game is not going well this card showing up won't make it suddenly work out is my concern.
Peek effects - I think there is a lot of deceptive assistance in these cards because they let you know about wraths, spot removal, and counter magic as well as if someone has some sort of combo they are setting up. These cards can help you play in a certain direction or keep yourself from moving into some answers. They can also be political if you want to tell other players about broken things about to happen and rally them with you to beat someone up if need be. I wasn't really sure about them at first but really I have had nothing but positive feedback for them since adding them. Its not the sort of effect I would jam in any deck but with all the spellcast assistance they have been fantastic for me. In the game last week I knew about several counter magic effects that I kind of wove myself through as well as several wraths that happened later that I used the God to clear. Lots of how the game went last week came from me knowing about several problems and answers before they happened.
Thermo-Alchemist - I am contemplating if I cut this guy moving forward. The fact that he needs to tap to do his thing has felt too slow when I have seen him. I think I just need to commit myself to playing him and seeing if he lives but he feels a lot slower and more clunky than most of the creatures in this list right now with not having immediate impact. I just thought I would mention that he is maybe on my cutting block right now due to that.
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I would consider Shattering Pulse as your artifact removal of choice. There are times where it'll be the engine that draws you back into a game (by cantrip drawing and killing an artifact on multiple turns) or games you use it as a shatter. It's not amazingly efficient but maybe worth a think. I was really surprised by how often it was great in Inalla (which mind you is a much slower deck). Having those sneaky sources of card advantage can be really nice.
Also wanted to say I really dig this deck. Looks pretty fun and like a unique style of play.
I would consider Shattering Pulse as your artifact removal of choice. There are times where it'll be the engine that draws you back into a game (by cantrip drawing and killing an artifact on multiple turns) or games you use it as a shatter. It's not amazingly efficient but maybe worth a think. I was really surprised by how often it was great in Inalla (which mind you is a much slower deck). Having those sneaky sources of card advantage can be really nice.
Also wanted to say I really dig this deck. Looks pretty fun and like a unique style of play.
So far the actual draw of the deck has been really good. I think its better to resort to buyback spells a little more if you can't maintain moving the spells quickly and repeatedly but they also get better if you put more focus into cost reduction which I am not really delving into right now due to half or more of my spells being not really effectively working with cost reduction effects. I think it probably depends a little on what metas look like as to how much artifact hate to run but I have actually had a fairly fast clock with this deck so far often winning by turns 6-10.
I also think its likely that I would prefer Capsize due to its versatility in targeting over Shattering Pulse but I don't think that either of them are all that useful for this build right now because of how mana intensive they are. They tend to be better in draw go style of decks if you ask me where you might just wait to respond as needed and dump mana to them if nothing else comes up. Overall, I would consider them more in high mana generating decks, draw go decks, and decks with cost reduction primarily. Its true that this deck cares about spellcasting but the primary benefit of buyback is generating some sort of value in that you don't use up a card to do something and this deck has draw in spades.
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With removing the wheels and lowering the curve, i'm also considering dropping a Mountain for Wayfarer's Bauble. But i could also put back Spell Swindle as i can go off the turn after a successful counter.
Looking at what your previous list was with those thoughts, I guess I have a few thoughts:
Snapcaster Mage - I own a playset of these guys and I actually cut mine very early in my testing of this deck. I thought I would say a few things about him. Generally speaking he is powerful if you want to play a responsive style of deck with a wide variety of tools so he gives you selection when you want it. This kind of deck I noticed I had a LOT of consistency in what my effects did and so mostly I felt like I was paying three mana for a cantrip which felt bad. Ideally in this deck you might want to recover something like Cyclonic Rift but due to how flashback works you can't even overload it from it so I had a hard time really feeling like he was pulling his weight. It turns a 1 mana spell into a 3 mana spell while only giving a 2/1 body from the two mana increase in cost. I found the deck was just too consistent on what kind of effects I was running and I wasn't really toolboxing with him which is why I cut him from my own list. The difference in what a non evasive 2/1 does in this format in comprarison of every constructed competative format is huge. Its unlikely you are going to value trade him or poke someone to death with him here so I find a lot of his value here is moved to diversity in targets which I do have but I value efficiency over selection more often which is why I cut him from my list before I made this thread.
Trinket Mage - this should be Whir of Invention. The 2/2 body isn't that valuable and you don't really have much to incentive creatures so really its the trade off between a chump blocker vs something that is on theme and has a larger scope of targeting.
I still think that some of these big value cards in your list could be replaced by fast and cheap cantrips which would push more value into drawing from Jori En. I often stagger some of my plays onto an opponents turn just to stagger and draw multiple cards from my commander. This tends to work best because I have so many one mana cards. Your list really kind of reminds me of a Arjun, The Shifting Flame deck as it is right now it seems very focused on triggering "draw cards" even at the cost of just turning your hand into a new hand. I am not sure if there is a problem with that, I just wanted to point out that there is more positive incentive to cast 2 cards in a turn as many times as we can. If there were more copies of Opt or something like it I would totally run it, I am just unfortunately capped out on how many instant speed "decent cantrips" there are.
I don't hate the cost reduction plan you are playing with but I would strongly suggest bolstering your number if you want to focus on 2-3 mana spells. Adding something like say Jace's Sanctum and probably considering Sapphire Medallion as well (I would run the blue one over the red for sure). If you are going to play in such a way that they are good I think its well worth it to run even more of them. I think I would probably either go deep on having those effects or go away from them.
Wayfarer's Bauble is solid. I like that it can ramp before Jori En is online which might make the turn we cast her give us an option to cantrip and its also cheap to cast in a turn making it easy to draw with and leaves options on when you pop it as well as maybe having interaction or casting other spells instead. Overall I like it so far.
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Thanks for your response.
I torally agree with you on the "discount plan". When adding one mana cantrips those lose value. I might look into that.
I figured, the wheel effects like Mindmoil and Arjun, the Shifting Flame are only ever really good if you got one of the (also more expensive, cmc-wise) payoff cards out. Those are a leftover from the Niv-Mizzet list.
Originally i wanted the deck to be able to switch between three commanders. Jori-En, Ruin Diver, Niv-Mizzet, Parun and The Locust God.
Two of those profit heavilly from the wheel effects. So i guess now i'm more focussed towards Jori-En.
Wayfarer's Bauble is in, I'll have to see if i'll ever miss the 38th land. The extra basic would make Terrain Generator better, which is why i was that high in the first place. Having a lot of mana at my disposal means winning more. We'll see how it goes.
Thanks for the advise on Whir. I used to have 5 of them but sold out I can see why it could be preferable over Trinket Mage though.
In defense. Trinket Mage fetches Expedition Map which in turn fetches Riptide Laboratory to reuse the value engine and offer some board protection. There is a slight wizard theme in there which is also why Snapcaster Mage is in there as more than a tool.
What about Thermo-Alchemist? Did you test it out?
To me, it's a strictly worse Electrosratic Field but offers some redundancy on early game pings round the table.
Thanks for your response.
I torally agree with you on the "discount plan". When adding one mana cantrips those lose value. I might look into that.
I figured, the wheel effects like Mindmoil and Arjun, the Shifting Flame are only ever really good if you got one of the (also more expensive, cmc-wise) payoff cards out. Those are a leftover from the Niv-Mizzet list.
Originally i wanted the deck to be able to switch between three commanders. Jori-En, Ruin Diver, Niv-Mizzet, Parun and The Locust God.
Two of those profit heavilly from the wheel effects. So i guess now i'm more focussed towards Jori-En.
Wayfarer's Bauble is in, I'll have to see if i'll ever miss the 38th land. The extra basic would make Terrain Generator better, which is why i was that high in the first place. Having a lot of mana at my disposal means winning more. We'll see how it goes.
Thanks for the advise on Whir. I used to have 5 of them but sold out I can see why it could be preferable over Trinket Mage though.
In defense. Trinket Mage fetches Expedition Map which in turn fetches Riptide Laboratory to reuse the value engine and offer some board protection. There is a slight wizard theme in there which is also why Snapcaster Mage is in there as more than a tool.
What about Thermo-Alchemist? Did you test it out?
To me, it's a strictly worse Electrosratic Field but offers some redundancy on early game pings round the table.
I am down to 32 lands in my build. I have found that given the extremely high density of cheap draw cards that I can operate opening hands of 1-2 lands in a lot of cases and not miss land drops. I think that as you slim down and run more cheap cantrips (assuming thats your plan) that it will be less and less of an issue.
Thermo-Alchemist - I haven't played the list again since my prior comment. I likely will end up replacing him with something else I just haven't come up with something else I feel I want or need yet. I was more mentioning it because I think I likely will be making that move as I move forward. I still think it "can work" I just think I get too wrapped up in trying to cast these spell enablers and immediately having pay off from them. He is cheap enough I probably can just fire him off and see if he lives but it still feels bad to not get that immediate return that most of the rest of the creatures in the deck have.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
So, last weekend we played 4 games, By far, the longest of which i used Jori-En. For this one we played 6player multiplayer and the game took forever.
I don't recall much details, but i know i didn't go trough my deck as fast as i'm used to.
Wierd draws, a few hard resets on the board and a playgroup on-to Jori-En. She was like 13cmc at one point in the game. When someone thought Armageddon was a good idea.
Fortunately i had my Elixir of Immortality on board to shuffle everything back that turn and i could regain somewhat of a position, but it wasn't enough to take the game. Got to 3rd place and the turn thereafter, it was over.
Not much else to report i'm afraid it's a fun deck nonetheless.
Six player games can be such a slog. The big problem is that a lot of the good threats to possibly take on that many players draw a lot of attention and with that many players its easy for there to be an answer somewhere for them. I think this deck generally plays better with less players but I haven't tested it a lot at 5+ to say that for sure.
Our guttersnipe style creatures are definitely going to do more work with more players but its asking for a lot for them to live long most of the time.
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I figured, if the curve goes any lower and i'm cutting basics, both Terrain Generator and Electromancer lose value in the deck.
I will cut Baral for Sapphire Medallion when i get one.
I'm going to try Mox Amber to play the turn Jori En, Ruin Diver comes down. Drawing me a card AND keeping up mana for a follow up instant speed something EOT. It's spicy, but could be nice
Mox Amber is an interesting thought. I had not really thought about it in this deck but yea it could really be nice. Maybe I will hunt down a copy to try out myself. I was just so used to it being such a questionable card I really didn't think about it here lol. Great catch let me know if you get any testing in.
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The card came up in a trade with a friend and i had never thought of putting it in any deck to be honest.
Figured if anything, this would be it
Three more cards i'd like to try next time: Dig Through Time, Treasure Cruise and Supreme Will.
I don't know if delving away reusable spells is something? I want to be doing, but the dig is sometimes needed.
Same goes for the flexibility of Supreme Will. I would probably cut Dream Fracture.
The card came up in a trade with a friend and i had never thought of putting it in any deck to be honest.
Figured if anything, this would be it
Three more cards i'd like to try next time: Dig Through Time, Treasure Cruise and Supreme Will.
I don't know if delving away reusable spells is something? I want to be doing, but the dig is sometimes needed.
Same goes for the flexibility of Supreme Will. I would probably cut Dream Fracture.
Delve also gets better as you lower your curve more and run more one drops. I don't have as much spell recovery as you do in my list either but the mass flashback or the one that casts a copy of every instant / sorcery in grave is already super ridiculous if you are casting them. Most of the time I find that if I am delving these cards I still get a lot of options and I can delve through fetchlands and creatures first and foremost which often covers half or more of the delve. I usually get a chance to make decisions as well and keep my best cards to flash them back. More cheap spells often means you will dig deeper faster and it makes delve much better.
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How much are you missing counterspells in this deck? Even the cheapest of 1cmc.
Your deck looks fun to play, I'm thinking in building, cause looks cheap too.
Thanks.
How much are you missing counterspells in this deck? Even the cheapest of 1cmc.
Your deck looks fun to play, I'm thinking in building, cause looks cheap too.
Thanks.
It depends a bit on how often spells that resolving end the game happen and how comfortable you are trying to race them. I don't see a ton of spells that end the game if they resolve but my other issue with those spells is if you are keeping mana up repeatedly for "if I need this counterspell" its potentially less you are doing in your turn. I tried to make the deck as it is right now into a deck that can play heavily on its own turn and just turn over resources. Sometimes you cast your spell enabler effect then cast your cantrip and draw into more cantrips and you just burn out your mana playing those. Adding more answers means that you might not chain your spells together as nicely and keeping up mana for counterspells sometimes not using all of your mana to be proactive which is primarily what I am trying to do right now.
Force of Will has been great in that I don't need to hold mana up for it but even then its possible to hit too many lands or answers and not enough gas to keep the deck chaining. If you want more counterspells I would probably bring them in for some of the creature interaction effects but I very much like them in the build as it is because I can use up all of my mana to do things then untap and use them if needed still.
In short, I find that I have need for most all of the mana I can muster in a turn repeatedly most turns. Sometimes you can keep the mana up and options for counter magic and sometimes I can't which is why I tend to run less of them here. Depending on how many things resolving end the game you see the more important counterspells are. I would not however try to run counter magic in this deck as a general answer or to try to protect your board, its more efficient to run more draw instead.
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Game recap:
Over the course of last saturday evening, we played 5 games. One of which i played with Jori-En and won.
The particular game was 3 player game with Animar, Soul of Elements and Marchesa, the Black Rose.
I had my early drawing engine going, but kept a low profile during the whole game. Durdling around, trying to get as much triggers of off Jori En, Ruin Diver which worked like a dream. Since both other decks went full steam bashing in on eachother. Sadly, i had my early Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind countered. so i couldn't close at that moment.
The casting of said Dragon Wizard did put a little focus on my side of the table and i had to face an attack of Steel Hellkite which i could not block. The Animar player paid x=4 to take care of my Primal Amulet with three counters on it. Luckilly in response, i could go Snapcaster Mage into Brainstorm to draw me 4 cards and flip the Amulet.
With the Primall Welspring now in play, i was in business. I had Fateful Showdown in hand which ment i could do a lot of damage when copied. I struck a deal with Marchesa, the Black Rose to use the damage to take out the big Animar, Soul of Elements so he could take out that player, and after the last wheel i drew into Expansion // Explosion which i could then use on his remaining life total the following turn
Some notable happenings:
Obviously Snapcaster Mage into Brainstorm was a game saver. This makes me wonder if Snappy should ever be cut. Yes, it's a three mana cantrip most of the time, and the body is not very relevant. Though, when reusable (i have Riptide Laboratory in play a lot!) it's such a great engine. Mind you, it always draws of off Jori En, Ruin Diver.
The lower curve is starting to pay out. Casting multiple spells each turn is good. I'm down to 35 lands now and mana was good. The discount from Goblin Electromancer was never relevant during the game.
I played this game with Mox Amber in the deck, but didn't got to test it. I feel it has it's function though so i will keep it in.
Visions of Beyond was lackluster this game. I had it in hand for three turns before i had to cast it for a mere one card. This is a very situational, do nothing, instant speed, cantrip. When i cast it, my yard had 14 cards in it. I feel this is better suited for a deck with more Wheel type effects in it.
If i would cut Visions of Beyond, i'd like to replace it with another instant speed drawspell. Dig Through Time is an option. Treasure Cruise feels slightly better because it triggers my payof cards, but this is sorcery speed. I'm open to suggestions.
I'm curious to hear what others think of cards like Pteramander as another very easy to enable threat. And what about Electrodominance as a neat trick to reliably trigger Jori-En (floor). Let alone when copied or with Thousand-Year Storm on the battlefield. The free spell is cast so counts towards storm.
I just love this deck. It unfolds as a puzzle every time i play it. The ability to draw my whole deck for the right answers is nothing short of amazing. Great fun.
I have fought my way trough the last standing player (Muldrotha) with half my graveyard exiled and 23 cards in hand and only 20 in my library. I had a boardstate capable of beating him with 6 flying insect tokens, Guttersnipe and Thousand-Year Storm, but he had a Glacial Chasm, Spore Frog and on top of that Glen Elendra Archmage in play, so i had to figure out how to do it.
The main way was to first cast my Psychosis Crawler and start bleeding him while i was digging to a way to remove the troublesome permanents. This could be done by either bouncing or tugging chasm and the frog with enough copies of Cryptic Command or Chaos Warp. One of which was in my hand, the other i knew for sure, was in the library.
I knew he wouldn't counter any draw spells because he needed the protection, so i started casting spells to dig for the answers i needed and when i did, i could finish him of with 5 copies of Expansion // Explosion making him take the damage and drawing the cards.
In the end, i was left with only 2 cards in the library but the victory felt truely awesome!
Sorry, the last few weeks have been brutal for me at work and I picked up Arena, did the pre release events, was doing modern events, and it has just stretched me a bit thin.
I'm curious to hear what others think of cards like Pteramander as another very easy to enable threat. And what about Electrodominance as a neat trick to reliably trigger Jori-En (floor). Let alone when copied or with Thousand-Year Storm on the battlefield. The free spell is cast so counts towards storm.
Any more gems?
I did take a look at the new ravnica set and offhand, no I don't really think there is anything all that viable from it. This really wasn't a spells focused set so I wasn't really expecting all that much this set.
Mass Manipulation could maybe be amusing but ultimately at the mana it would be effective other big spells like Blatant Thievery or Expropriate are probably just better effects.
Pteramander - strict beaters are rarely good in this format. I do make an exception for Arclight Phoenix but that is in part due to how sticky it is and I can often filter and not actually have to cast it.
Electrodominance ends up being sort of just a bad Epic Experiment and I ended up cutting Epic early on in my testing finding it to be not too impressive given how big the X needed to be before a decent payoff happened on top of the fact that lands and non spell things popped up too often so like X=8 was like cast 3-4 spells which were mostly just 1 mana cantrips lol.
Light Up the Stage - it might seem like an odd one to point out but its been actually doing impressive things in a lot of formats. Given the cheap costing commander and a bunch of flying tokens it seems fairly likely I could trigger the Spectacle which mostly makes this a one mana draw 2 spell (even though it doesn't draw and has its limitations). I am not saying this one is going to be an auto include or anything but..... I think it maybe has some potential.
I managed to play the deck a few weeks ago before pulling a few cards to play my modern Arclight list for the first time. I happened to get my hands on the mox as well that game but ultimately I saw it late in the game where it wasn't really relevant. From what I recall I ended up winning that game off the back of the The Locust God + Future Sight making me a disgusting number of flyers and running my opponents down. That game was kind of odd in that I ended up getting Sword of Feast and Famine + Sword of the Animist in my opener and managed to get them to proc quite a bit which helped me out a lot in building up.
Don't apologise for prioritizing, eventhough it has been a month since there was some activity in this topic .
I also have been busy brewing and playing different style of decks so haven't really come to play with my beloved Jori-En that much. Our playgroup only plays 3 or 4 games per session before exhaustion/time kicks in. Durdling around does not help with that
That being said, has anyone ever tried to make Mind's Desire work in this deck? The card looks lovely and pretty easy to trigger storm multiple times in a single turn. The same optimal sequences apply to this card as they do to Thousand-Year Storm let alone in conjunction with said card or one of the many payoff cards in play. Only thing is, there is no clear finisher spell because of the "X=0" clause.
Curious to hear some experiences or thoughts on this one!
Don't apologise for prioritizing, eventhough it has been a month since there was some activity in this topic .
I also have been busy brewing and playing different style of decks so haven't really come to play with my beloved Jori-En that much. Our playgroup only plays 3 or 4 games per session before exhaustion/time kicks in. Durdling around does not help with that
That being said, has anyone ever tried to make Mind's Desire work in this deck? The card looks lovely and pretty easy to trigger storm multiple times in a single turn. The same optimal sequences apply to this card as they do to Thousand-Year Storm let alone in conjunction with said card or one of the many payoff cards in play. Only thing is, there is no clear finisher spell because of the "X=0" clause.
Curious to hear some experiences or thoughts on this one!
I also really like this deck and still play it but that being said I haven't seen a lot of room for big changes of late which has slowed down how much I have played it of late. I also ended up buying into the modern arclight deck which when I fielded it I had to pull cards from this which hurt me running it for a bit.
I think Mind's Desire could be a thing but I also think that its a lot of mana to resolve it for a big number. The other thing to consider with it is how it would play in relation to something like Swarm Intelligence. I think both are kind of hard to multi cast in a turn with a bunch of other cards in the same turn but Swarm Intelligence potentially provides much more value over time. I don't think its wrong to test, I just think that potentially it costs similar mana to other reasonable things that might have similar but maybe better results. Hitting lands with Mind's Desire seems like it would be the biggest handicap part of it.
I really wish I didn't feel so bad resolving extra turns because Time Warp and friends really were incredible. I only cut them because everyone at the table made me feel bad about resolving them.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Curiosity - that's a very interesting idea. I do also have Niv-Mizzet, Parun in the list but given how I play I would never set that up myself. I guess my only real concern is we are talking about cards here that would be added for the intent purpose of combining with one of four cards in the list. I think the idea of Curiosity looks really cool and sounds amazing when you would get it set up but I also think that its kind of incredibly narrow in that it seems like not a very good concept outside of getting one of those four cards into play and to stick. I just wonder if we have enough redundancy and targets to justify it even though it does sound SUPER cool if you got that set up. I checked into the rules and the response I got back is that these creatures will draw a card per opponent hit rather than one / spellcast so that does sound promising but I guess I will continue to question the targeting options for this deck for this type of effect.
Forbid - I prefer it more myself in a draw / go style of list if at all. Keeping three mana up turn after turn to keep this as an option can be challenging for this deck because I constantly have things to do with my mana. There are turns where I don't have an issue doing that but I find that I play a lot of my mana on my turn with this deck as of right now. If it was cheaper to cast it might be a different case but I think its a little more reactive than I am currently trying to be with this deck. I have a lot of proactive things I am trying to do between the spellcast enablers and casting spells to cash in on their value generation quickly as well. On occasion I will keep up response options but they tend to be 1-2 mana things with a backup plan of potentially casting some cantrips or answer + cantrip. Being three mana for one spell that I have to have ready in response to a problem can be a problem. Something like Chaos Warp I could have ready in a pinch but I can also untap and answer a problem potentially if I didn't have the mana up beforehand to use for a counterspell which is why I have opted to run counter light in this list so far.
This all said, I don't think that either of these cards / concepts are bad ideas. I think both of these do have promise but right now, I am probably going to pass on them. If you can land Curiosity on one of the pingers, it absolutely does sound glorious I just question the count of pingers we have and the reliance on those few cards for this effect.
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[Modern] Allies
I will keep it in mind. Some of my concern is that I need to connect for its value and my commander has no evasion. There is also the concern that it adds more incentive to remove her as I try to add extra value to her via this kind of thing. I think the potential of curiosity is very high but I also think that the average use is is a little questionable.
GAME RECAP:
I did get to play a game last night where I did manage to see an opening hand Sword of the Animist which was fairly good for me. I ended up hitting several extra lands as I think I got an extra 4-6 lands from it over the course of the game. There were several times where I could have been chump blocked but the bump in size kept her alive and the value being generated on attack kept chump blocking from being a problem.
The Locust God showed up and did some serious work. The overall stickiness of that card was really great yesterday as he fought me through a few wraths giving me blockers and attackers. Ultimately I did power through on something like my third time playing him. I finished off said game with Locus God + Niv-Mizzet, Parun finally resolving an overloaded Mizzix's Mastery for the win on the same turn I played Niv Mizzet. There were like 20+ spells in my graveyard when I closed it out.
I got to see a little more of Arclight Phoenix in said game as well. It wasn't really huge but it did buy me a repeat blocker as well as something to cast through counter magic that I knew of thanks to a Peek effect. It did end up auto rezing several times and I actually did use it to trade with attackers a few times which I found amusing. I had the option to try to filter it in that game but I suspected I would eat counter magic if I had tried at the time so I ended up hard casting it. I still don't think I would call it amazing but I will say I think its very very easy to resurrect it in this list and thus far I still think its a worthy include but far from something necessary to play this deck. I will continue to keep an eye on what it does for me and how useful I find it but so far I would say its been fairly good for me. The key to the power of this card seems to be in filtering / discarding it and getting it back for free but I was still fairly happy in the situation this game where I cast it (given known counter magic).
I feel like I didn't get much of an opportunity to test most of my recent changes so I guess I will have to get more testing moving forward. I did get to T4 attack with Sword of the Animist on Jori En + Chart a Course post combat main and that was spicy I suppose. I also managed to find Firemind's Research super late in the game but it was kind of as I was spinning up to end the game so I opted to do relevant things then rather than play it.
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[Modern] Allies
The Locust God is an absolute house! Pair it with Skullclamp for maximum value.
I'm in the process of doing some changes, like you said Peek effects are good as a tool and cantrip, so i got it and probe. Have see what i'll cut though.
We'll play several games next friday, will try to report some.
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
Sounds good let me know how it goes.
Skullclamp - my only concern is that it seems a little winmore in that if its good, its good because we have a token maker in play and probably made a several tokens. In that kind of setup I feel like I am probably already doing alright but I guess it depends on the game state. I just feel like if the game is not going well this card showing up won't make it suddenly work out is my concern.
Peek effects - I think there is a lot of deceptive assistance in these cards because they let you know about wraths, spot removal, and counter magic as well as if someone has some sort of combo they are setting up. These cards can help you play in a certain direction or keep yourself from moving into some answers. They can also be political if you want to tell other players about broken things about to happen and rally them with you to beat someone up if need be. I wasn't really sure about them at first but really I have had nothing but positive feedback for them since adding them. Its not the sort of effect I would jam in any deck but with all the spellcast assistance they have been fantastic for me. In the game last week I knew about several counter magic effects that I kind of wove myself through as well as several wraths that happened later that I used the God to clear. Lots of how the game went last week came from me knowing about several problems and answers before they happened.
Thermo-Alchemist - I am contemplating if I cut this guy moving forward. The fact that he needs to tap to do his thing has felt too slow when I have seen him. I think I just need to commit myself to playing him and seeing if he lives but he feels a lot slower and more clunky than most of the creatures in this list right now with not having immediate impact. I just thought I would mention that he is maybe on my cutting block right now due to that.
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[Modern] Allies
Also wanted to say I really dig this deck. Looks pretty fun and like a unique style of play.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
So far the actual draw of the deck has been really good. I think its better to resort to buyback spells a little more if you can't maintain moving the spells quickly and repeatedly but they also get better if you put more focus into cost reduction which I am not really delving into right now due to half or more of my spells being not really effectively working with cost reduction effects. I think it probably depends a little on what metas look like as to how much artifact hate to run but I have actually had a fairly fast clock with this deck so far often winning by turns 6-10.
I also think its likely that I would prefer Capsize due to its versatility in targeting over Shattering Pulse but I don't think that either of them are all that useful for this build right now because of how mana intensive they are. They tend to be better in draw go style of decks if you ask me where you might just wait to respond as needed and dump mana to them if nothing else comes up. Overall, I would consider them more in high mana generating decks, draw go decks, and decks with cost reduction primarily. Its true that this deck cares about spellcasting but the primary benefit of buyback is generating some sort of value in that you don't use up a card to do something and this deck has draw in spades.
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Mindmoil -> Gitaxian Probe
Spell Swindle -> Peek
Arjun, the Shifting Flame -> Consecrated Sphinx
With removing the wheels and lowering the curve, i'm also considering dropping a Mountain for Wayfarer's Bauble. But i could also put back Spell Swindle as i can go off the turn after a successful counter.
What do you think?
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
Snapcaster Mage - I own a playset of these guys and I actually cut mine very early in my testing of this deck. I thought I would say a few things about him. Generally speaking he is powerful if you want to play a responsive style of deck with a wide variety of tools so he gives you selection when you want it. This kind of deck I noticed I had a LOT of consistency in what my effects did and so mostly I felt like I was paying three mana for a cantrip which felt bad. Ideally in this deck you might want to recover something like Cyclonic Rift but due to how flashback works you can't even overload it from it so I had a hard time really feeling like he was pulling his weight. It turns a 1 mana spell into a 3 mana spell while only giving a 2/1 body from the two mana increase in cost. I found the deck was just too consistent on what kind of effects I was running and I wasn't really toolboxing with him which is why I cut him from my own list. The difference in what a non evasive 2/1 does in this format in comprarison of every constructed competative format is huge. Its unlikely you are going to value trade him or poke someone to death with him here so I find a lot of his value here is moved to diversity in targets which I do have but I value efficiency over selection more often which is why I cut him from my list before I made this thread.
Trinket Mage - this should be Whir of Invention. The 2/2 body isn't that valuable and you don't really have much to incentive creatures so really its the trade off between a chump blocker vs something that is on theme and has a larger scope of targeting.
I still think that some of these big value cards in your list could be replaced by fast and cheap cantrips which would push more value into drawing from Jori En. I often stagger some of my plays onto an opponents turn just to stagger and draw multiple cards from my commander. This tends to work best because I have so many one mana cards. Your list really kind of reminds me of a Arjun, The Shifting Flame deck as it is right now it seems very focused on triggering "draw cards" even at the cost of just turning your hand into a new hand. I am not sure if there is a problem with that, I just wanted to point out that there is more positive incentive to cast 2 cards in a turn as many times as we can. If there were more copies of Opt or something like it I would totally run it, I am just unfortunately capped out on how many instant speed "decent cantrips" there are.
I don't hate the cost reduction plan you are playing with but I would strongly suggest bolstering your number if you want to focus on 2-3 mana spells. Adding something like say Jace's Sanctum and probably considering Sapphire Medallion as well (I would run the blue one over the red for sure). If you are going to play in such a way that they are good I think its well worth it to run even more of them. I think I would probably either go deep on having those effects or go away from them.
Wayfarer's Bauble is solid. I like that it can ramp before Jori En is online which might make the turn we cast her give us an option to cantrip and its also cheap to cast in a turn making it easy to draw with and leaves options on when you pop it as well as maybe having interaction or casting other spells instead. Overall I like it so far.
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[Modern] Allies
I torally agree with you on the "discount plan". When adding one mana cantrips those lose value. I might look into that.
I figured, the wheel effects like Mindmoil and Arjun, the Shifting Flame are only ever really good if you got one of the (also more expensive, cmc-wise) payoff cards out. Those are a leftover from the Niv-Mizzet list.
Originally i wanted the deck to be able to switch between three commanders. Jori-En, Ruin Diver, Niv-Mizzet, Parun and The Locust God.
Two of those profit heavilly from the wheel effects. So i guess now i'm more focussed towards Jori-En.
Wayfarer's Bauble is in, I'll have to see if i'll ever miss the 38th land. The extra basic would make Terrain Generator better, which is why i was that high in the first place. Having a lot of mana at my disposal means winning more. We'll see how it goes.
Thanks for the advise on Whir. I used to have 5 of them but sold out I can see why it could be preferable over Trinket Mage though.
In defense. Trinket Mage fetches Expedition Map which in turn fetches Riptide Laboratory to reuse the value engine and offer some board protection. There is a slight wizard theme in there which is also why Snapcaster Mage is in there as more than a tool.
What about Thermo-Alchemist? Did you test it out?
To me, it's a strictly worse Electrosratic Field but offers some redundancy on early game pings round the table.
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
I am down to 32 lands in my build. I have found that given the extremely high density of cheap draw cards that I can operate opening hands of 1-2 lands in a lot of cases and not miss land drops. I think that as you slim down and run more cheap cantrips (assuming thats your plan) that it will be less and less of an issue.
Thermo-Alchemist - I haven't played the list again since my prior comment. I likely will end up replacing him with something else I just haven't come up with something else I feel I want or need yet. I was more mentioning it because I think I likely will be making that move as I move forward. I still think it "can work" I just think I get too wrapped up in trying to cast these spell enablers and immediately having pay off from them. He is cheap enough I probably can just fire him off and see if he lives but it still feels bad to not get that immediate return that most of the rest of the creatures in the deck have.
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[Modern] Allies
I don't recall much details, but i know i didn't go trough my deck as fast as i'm used to.
Wierd draws, a few hard resets on the board and a playgroup on-to Jori-En. She was like 13cmc at one point in the game. When someone thought Armageddon was a good idea.
Fortunately i had my Elixir of Immortality on board to shuffle everything back that turn and i could regain somewhat of a position, but it wasn't enough to take the game. Got to 3rd place and the turn thereafter, it was over.
Not much else to report i'm afraid it's a fun deck nonetheless.
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
Our guttersnipe style creatures are definitely going to do more work with more players but its asking for a lot for them to live long most of the time.
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[Modern] Allies
made some more small adjustments to lower the curve and focus on some immediate value.
Added:
Visions of Beyond
Mox Amber
Sentinel Tower
Cut:
Mountain
Goblin Electromancer
Terrain Generator
I figured, if the curve goes any lower and i'm cutting basics, both Terrain Generator and Electromancer lose value in the deck.
I will cut Baral for Sapphire Medallion when i get one.
I'm going to try Mox Amber to play the turn Jori En, Ruin Diver comes down. Drawing me a card AND keeping up mana for a follow up instant speed something EOT. It's spicy, but could be nice
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
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Figured if anything, this would be it
Three more cards i'd like to try next time: Dig Through Time, Treasure Cruise and Supreme Will.
I don't know if delving away reusable spells is something? I want to be doing, but the dig is sometimes needed.
Same goes for the flexibility of Supreme Will. I would probably cut Dream Fracture.
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
Delve also gets better as you lower your curve more and run more one drops. I don't have as much spell recovery as you do in my list either but the mass flashback or the one that casts a copy of every instant / sorcery in grave is already super ridiculous if you are casting them. Most of the time I find that if I am delving these cards I still get a lot of options and I can delve through fetchlands and creatures first and foremost which often covers half or more of the delve. I usually get a chance to make decisions as well and keep my best cards to flash them back. More cheap spells often means you will dig deeper faster and it makes delve much better.
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[Modern] Allies
Your deck looks fun to play, I'm thinking in building, cause looks cheap too.
Thanks.
It depends a bit on how often spells that resolving end the game happen and how comfortable you are trying to race them. I don't see a ton of spells that end the game if they resolve but my other issue with those spells is if you are keeping mana up repeatedly for "if I need this counterspell" its potentially less you are doing in your turn. I tried to make the deck as it is right now into a deck that can play heavily on its own turn and just turn over resources. Sometimes you cast your spell enabler effect then cast your cantrip and draw into more cantrips and you just burn out your mana playing those. Adding more answers means that you might not chain your spells together as nicely and keeping up mana for counterspells sometimes not using all of your mana to be proactive which is primarily what I am trying to do right now.
Force of Will has been great in that I don't need to hold mana up for it but even then its possible to hit too many lands or answers and not enough gas to keep the deck chaining. If you want more counterspells I would probably bring them in for some of the creature interaction effects but I very much like them in the build as it is because I can use up all of my mana to do things then untap and use them if needed still.
In short, I find that I have need for most all of the mana I can muster in a turn repeatedly most turns. Sometimes you can keep the mana up and options for counter magic and sometimes I can't which is why I tend to run less of them here. Depending on how many things resolving end the game you see the more important counterspells are. I would not however try to run counter magic in this deck as a general answer or to try to protect your board, its more efficient to run more draw instead.
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[Modern] Allies
Over the course of last saturday evening, we played 5 games. One of which i played with Jori-En and won.
The particular game was 3 player game with Animar, Soul of Elements and Marchesa, the Black Rose.
I had my early drawing engine going, but kept a low profile during the whole game. Durdling around, trying to get as much triggers of off Jori En, Ruin Diver which worked like a dream. Since both other decks went full steam bashing in on eachother. Sadly, i had my early Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind countered. so i couldn't close at that moment.
The casting of said Dragon Wizard did put a little focus on my side of the table and i had to face an attack of Steel Hellkite which i could not block. The Animar player paid x=4 to take care of my Primal Amulet with three counters on it. Luckilly in response, i could go Snapcaster Mage into Brainstorm to draw me 4 cards and flip the Amulet.
With the Primall Welspring now in play, i was in business. I had Fateful Showdown in hand which ment i could do a lot of damage when copied. I struck a deal with Marchesa, the Black Rose to use the damage to take out the big Animar, Soul of Elements so he could take out that player, and after the last wheel i drew into Expansion // Explosion which i could then use on his remaining life total the following turn
Some notable happenings:
Going forward:
Great fun to build, tune and pilot this deck!
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
I'm curious to hear what others think of cards like Pteramander as another very easy to enable threat. And what about Electrodominance as a neat trick to reliably trigger Jori-En (floor). Let alone when copied or with Thousand-Year Storm on the battlefield. The free spell is cast so counts towards storm.
Any more gems?
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
I just love this deck. It unfolds as a puzzle every time i play it. The ability to draw my whole deck for the right answers is nothing short of amazing. Great fun.
I have fought my way trough the last standing player (Muldrotha) with half my graveyard exiled and 23 cards in hand and only 20 in my library. I had a boardstate capable of beating him with 6 flying insect tokens, Guttersnipe and Thousand-Year Storm, but he had a Glacial Chasm, Spore Frog and on top of that Glen Elendra Archmage in play, so i had to figure out how to do it.
The main way was to first cast my Psychosis Crawler and start bleeding him while i was digging to a way to remove the troublesome permanents. This could be done by either bouncing or tugging chasm and the frog with enough copies of Cryptic Command or Chaos Warp. One of which was in my hand, the other i knew for sure, was in the library.
I knew he wouldn't counter any draw spells because he needed the protection, so i started casting spells to dig for the answers i needed and when i did, i could finish him of with 5 copies of Expansion // Explosion making him take the damage and drawing the cards.
In the end, i was left with only 2 cards in the library but the victory felt truely awesome!
I changed two cards prior to the game.
Out:
Baral, Chief of Compliance
Visions of Beyond
In:
Sapphire Medallion
Azami, Lady of Scrolls
edit:
And, truth be told, i've swapped the plain OGW Jori En for the game day promo version of her. That card is just so pretty.
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
I did take a look at the new ravnica set and offhand, no I don't really think there is anything all that viable from it. This really wasn't a spells focused set so I wasn't really expecting all that much this set.
I managed to play the deck a few weeks ago before pulling a few cards to play my modern Arclight list for the first time. I happened to get my hands on the mox as well that game but ultimately I saw it late in the game where it wasn't really relevant. From what I recall I ended up winning that game off the back of the The Locust God + Future Sight making me a disgusting number of flyers and running my opponents down. That game was kind of odd in that I ended up getting Sword of Feast and Famine + Sword of the Animist in my opener and managed to get them to proc quite a bit which helped me out a lot in building up.
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[Modern] Allies
I also have been busy brewing and playing different style of decks so haven't really come to play with my beloved Jori-En that much. Our playgroup only plays 3 or 4 games per session before exhaustion/time kicks in. Durdling around does not help with that
That being said, has anyone ever tried to make Mind's Desire work in this deck? The card looks lovely and pretty easy to trigger storm multiple times in a single turn. The same optimal sequences apply to this card as they do to Thousand-Year Storm let alone in conjunction with said card or one of the many payoff cards in play. Only thing is, there is no clear finisher spell because of the "X=0" clause.
Curious to hear some experiences or thoughts on this one!
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
I also really like this deck and still play it but that being said I haven't seen a lot of room for big changes of late which has slowed down how much I have played it of late. I also ended up buying into the modern arclight deck which when I fielded it I had to pull cards from this which hurt me running it for a bit.
I think Mind's Desire could be a thing but I also think that its a lot of mana to resolve it for a big number. The other thing to consider with it is how it would play in relation to something like Swarm Intelligence. I think both are kind of hard to multi cast in a turn with a bunch of other cards in the same turn but Swarm Intelligence potentially provides much more value over time. I don't think its wrong to test, I just think that potentially it costs similar mana to other reasonable things that might have similar but maybe better results. Hitting lands with Mind's Desire seems like it would be the biggest handicap part of it.
I really wish I didn't feel so bad resolving extra turns because Time Warp and friends really were incredible. I only cut them because everyone at the table made me feel bad about resolving them.
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[Modern] Allies