I've been contributing ideas to the "Let's Brew" thread for this commander, and I finally put a deck together and been going through quite a few different iterations since, trying all sorts of different cards and themes.
It took me a while to even start with a theme, as there are really quite a few different ways to tackle this commander.
When I make and post deck lists, I'm not always trying to present "the best" deck that you might be able to build, but rather unique angles or themes, so that it gives potential deck makers a take that they might not have seen or thought about before.
My first brew I was really hoping to do a lot of different things each game. But what happened is that I ended up always winning the same way.
It was turning Lazav into Vector Asp and Phyrexian Dreadnought, along with some evasive creature, mostly Invisible Stalker.
You can give Lazav infect until end of turn, and then change him into a 12/12 trampler, and that is usually enough to kill a player.
So why did it end up being this most of the time? Well it's super mana efficient firstly. But thing with competitive games of commander, is that somebody is usually going off and getting ahead, and you don't have time to setup necessarily your own card advantages. I just found myself pressured enough to try and eliminate at least one player who is threatening to win, and this is a very efficient way of killing that player.
So what's the problem? Well no real problem, just became a bit linear and frankly boring. You do the same thing 5 games in a row and it feels like just about time to shelve the deck.
What ended up being "meh"?
I will give you some insight into additional themes I was trying to play into, so that it might help with what you might have planned with your build of Lazav. The first one was "value creatures". The idea was to get to copy some creatures to gain some card draw, etc.
For me these included Maralen of the Mornsong, Silas Renn, Seeker Adept, Sygg, River Cutthroat, Kami of the Crescent Moon, Disciple of Deceit. Copying these creatures from your graveyard, you can wait for example until end of opponents turn to make Lazav into Maralen of the Mornsong to tutor for a card, and then turn Lazav into something else so that opponents don't get the same benefits.
I really liked the idea of turning Lazav into Silas Renn, Seeker Adept, and then casting Silas Renn from your graveyard as an artifact (from the trigger of the first one), and then you'll get two versions in play, as Lazav is still unique. It's not often that you can get two of the same type of legendary creatures in play.
So what's the problem? Well, the thing with spending mana to make Lazav different creatures is that it is mana intensive, even if the converted-mana-cost of the creatures is only 2 or 3 mana. The fact of the matter is that you can never have enough mana to bounce around different creatures the way you'd like to in your head. If you're being aggressive with Lazav, trying to attack with some sort of big hit combo, then it's unlikely that you can look to also get value from him as well, or for the matter protect him. By protect I mean leaving up enough mana to turn him into a hexproof, indestructible or undying creature.
So in the end you need to pick a lane, if you're lucky two lanes, but you can't look to do everything. It turns out that the lane that gets you the least ahead is medium value, so turning him into something like Jace, Vryn's Prodigy is fine, but you'll find on average that games are pushing the action too much to have turns like that. You still need mana to cast spells as well, to further your board or disrupt your opponents.
I also was trying a number of different infinite combos, as I really like to break down commanders and their synergies with infinite's. However in the end I just found I wasn't getting them, as I already mentioned every game I just ended up doing the same aggressive 12/12 infect attacks, rather than setting up for complicated combo sequences. The other problem is that some of those combo cards, didn't really have a broad spectrum of uses, so often were fairly useless until you have the complete combo. In this regard I normally like to have cards that have cross synergies, so that I can feel the slot is warranted, and some of these I felt just didn't work out.
These included Phyrexian Altar and Ashnod's Altar. Most of you will recognize these as super powerful cards in the right build, but unfortunately for my deck they ended up being too specialized to one particular combo, so much of the time were not used for any value at all. So these types of specialized combo cards were cut.
With the next iteration of the deck I played, I had been enjoying the unblockable part of the combos, so I went for a low to the ground unblockable/flying squad, with the idea that I would lean on some draw enchantments; Bident of Thassa, Coastal Piracy and Thopter Spy Network, to gain card advantage.
This was pretty short lived, it turns out if you don't draw one of those cards, your small squad sucks, lol.
Robot Spy Drones.
The current build I've gone to an idea that I was floating around in the Let's Brew thread, and that was utilizing artifact creatures and +1/+1 counters. With Lazav ability to become different creatures, you can potentially toolbox how those +1/+1 counters are used. If he is a Walking Ballista then he can deal damage. If he is a Mindless Automaton then he can use them for draw and discarding cards to your graveyard.
But the reason I've gone down the path of a heavy artifact build is for two reasons.
The main reason is Artificer's Intuition. This card is like Survival of the Fittest for Lazav, the Multifarious decks that are looking to hit with a "12/12 infect flying trampling" commander.
Around about 1/3 of the deck is artifacts, so you're likely to have the fuel for it at any given time. You can go through for Ornithopter, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Vector Asp, each pitching the other to search for the next one, and then even on the last search maybe get Mana Crypt to help with the mana costs of turning Lazav between the creatures.
On top of this I'm also using Necrotic Ooze combos. The reason is that although Phyrexian Dreadnought and Vector Asp is very efficient at killing a single player, sometimes you need to find the opportunity to kill everybody at once.
I'm using Pili-Pala in combination with a bunch of different mana producing creatures to get infinite mana; Palladium Myr, Metalworker, Apprentice Wizard. Millikin doesn't provide infinite mana, but it does put cards into your graveyard, which will find you these other cards to actually win.
You can get infinite mana with Necrotic Ooze using Pili-Pala and a mana creature that can tap for two or more mana both in your graveyard. With infinite mana you have a lot of different cards that you can win with. Walking Ballista is the main one I use, but you can also use Kefnet the Mindful or Mindless Automaton to draw into what you need.
So with a bunch of artifact creatures already for combos, it reminded me of "Affinity" themes you'd find in Modern, and I thought I'd just run with this idea a little bit more with some additional artifact creature synergies.
Graveyard as a resource.
Using your graveyard as a resource is one of the main ways to victory, so anything that can put massive amounts of cards into your graveyard is going to help you. There is Mirror-Mad Phantasm, as well as Cephalid Illusionist with Lightning Greaves that can put your library into your graveyard. With Lazav ability to copy a creature, often you can make him the Necrotic Ooze for a win.
There are lots more interactions, combos and synergies, but I'll go into more detail in the card choices section.
This is definetely early days for this commander, I'd like to hear what other people have been brewing or changes they think I could make, or cards that I should include.
Let's make this clear from the start, when you end up resolving a Buried Alive or Intuition, then your odds on winning are very high. You have a variety of different modes to choose your opponents ultimate demise.
So in this respect it can be a linear strategy. But as long as you build your deck to also be fun in other ways you can get a lot of enjoyment from any deck you base around Lazav.
In general the converted-mana-cost of the creatures, and really the entire deck is very low. Currently it has a literally average casting cost of 2.07. Which is pretty amazing for how powerful the combination of the cards actually are.
I will touch upon Artificer's Intuition again, because this really is the main reason I built this deck in the first place. This will provide you all the tools you need to start killing opponents with a huge infect creature.
I've purposefully kept a high count of artifacts in the deck, so that you are more likely to have one in hand, in addition to some that you might have played out to keep up a board presence.
So rather than playing some extra lands, you'll find the zero costing 'Mox' artifacts like; Mox Opal, Chrome Mox, Mox Diamond, Mox Amber. These help with speed, but also as I say potential fodder for Artificer's Intuition.
There is also the artifact lands in Seat of the Synod and Vault of Whispers, so these are even transferable if you're wanting lands, or maybe the combo creatures.
There are some protection creatures that you can turn Lazav into if you've manage to put them into your graveyard at some stage.
For indestructible you have Thassa, God of the Sea, Kefnet the Mindful.
For hexproof you have Invisible Stalker.
For undying you have Treacherous Pit-Dweller and Butcher Ghoul. Undying can be very good if faced with a board wipe, as you can turn Lazav into one if the undying creatures, and let him go to graveyard, to return with a +1/+1 counter.
There is also Nightscape Familiar for regeneration.
So leaving enough mana, usually between 2-3 to make Lazav some of these creatures does help to stifle your opponents plans of removing him.
The nice thing about having such low costing creatures, is that you can just simply cast them and you don't care if they get destroyed. They end up being very handy blockers against aggressive decks, buying you time.
If you have an Entomb in your starting hand then you can look to cast Lazav on Turn 1 (Mox artifacts) or Turn 2 and then look to hit with 12 commander damage (Phyrexian Dreadnought) the following turn. It can often be too much for your opponents to deal with as it presents each one of them with a two turn clock. You certainly end up killing at least one person, before they can do anything. It's pretty brutal too be honest.
Mirror-Mad Phantasm is special in that not only will it potentially put tons of cards into your graveyard by itself, but you can also use Lazav to copy it and then the rule where because the "card" it is looking for won't actually be "Mirror-Mad Phantasm", you can mill your entire deck at once. You'll need to be able to cast Lazav again to combo win with for example with Necrotic Ooze, so you just need to keep in mind that you do need quite a bit of mana if you're looking to combo this way.
You can cast Cephalid Illusionist (or use Lazav to copy) and keep swapping Lightning Greaves between this and another creature, and each time the triggered ability will happen. So you can mill as much as your library as you want.
Originally I had Laboratory Maniac and was focused on this aspect of winning, but too be honest it's a general theme I've done a million times before.
You could make a potentially more competitive build that focuses on "having no library" for wins.
You can also build them to have a Dread Return package, so that you don't even need Lazav back in play. Because Dread Return can be flashed back by sacrificing 3 creatures, you can run support cards like, Fatestitcher, Narcomoeba to help you reach that number. These can all be played from your graveyard.
In the end I'm not running these, well because I like to keep things a bit fresh for myself. But I need to be respectful that other players are looking to do this sort of stuff for the first time, or for the most competitive build, so by all means these are very strong cards and plays to put into a Lazav deck.
Even without infect the Phyrexian Dreadnought can still make Lazav hit for 12 damage, and with commander 21 damage rule, it can kill players in a couple of hits.
You can copy Crackdown Construct with Lazav and then you can copy any zero costing creature in your graveyard as many times as you want to make Lazav get infinite +1/+1 until end of turn. You just need to make sure you keep responding to making him the zero cost creature, before it resolves, so that he remains Crackdown Construct for as long as you want. Even with the creatures like Walking Ballista and Hangarback Walker which are 0/0, Lazav will get the bonus of +1/+1 before he resolves into one of them, so will remain alive.
There is a combo using Jace's Archivist and Notion Thief together. With Lazav being able to copy creatures from your graveyard, you can even setup a Buried Alive or Intuition.
If both of them are in your graveyard then you can make Lazav the Jace's Archivist and use the discard draw ability, make sure you respond to it before it resolves by making Lazav the Notion Thief. Opponents will be left probably empty handed, while you will have..well a lot.
I've already mentioned winning with Necrotic Ooze. You can get infinite mana, and this normally means some other broken plays. Grand Architect can also be used with Pili-Pala in play. You can make the Pili-Pala a blue creature, so that you can tap it for 2 arifact mana and use this to untap itself for gaining the mana.
It's important to note that Necrotic Ooze cannot use the Grand Architect with Pili-Pala as the Ooze is not an artifact to start with.
So you still need one of the mana producing creature in your graveyard; Palladium Myr, Metalworker, Apprentice Wizard for the Necrotic Ooze to go infinite. The reason I like to run this is that you can have some redundancy with 3 creatures that do this, and you're happy to draw these at anytime during the game as they do provide mana in general.
If you have 4 artifacts in hand, you can look to use Metalworker and Pili-Pala with Lazav by himself to gain infinite mana. You need 5 to keep switching Lazav between the two creatures and the 2 to activate the Pili-Pala, so this will net you a mana each time.
Training Grounds is obviously one of the signature cards of the deck, allowing you to much more easily switch between creatures.
But it also opens up some infinite's with Pili-Pala, Palladium Myr/Metalworker/Apprentice Wizard and Lazav by himself as well. As it only costs 1 to switch Lazav between each creature, and then Pili-Pala activation is also reduced you can net mana each time to you rotate around Pili-Pala and one of the mana creatures.
This also means that you can use the creatures that produce at least one mana to also combo with the Necrotic Ooze and Pili-Pala to get infinite mana; Millikin, Leaden Myr, Silver Myr.
Glen Elendra Archmage is a great control card, and I've even used it with Lazav copying it, or Necrotic Ooze. You might get the infinite combos, but say not have a "win-con". I've used Glen Elendra Archmage as a pseudo win-con as opponents couldn't cast non-creature spells, as I could keep countering everything, and then removing the -1/-1 counters, with some of the +1/+1 counter creatures.
Crypt Rats is a great catch all for destroying creatures. A clever trick is to make Lazav the Crypt Rats if in your graveyard, then you can put the damage effect on the stack and then turn Lazav into another creature that would survive the effect. For example Phyrexian Dreadnought with 12 toughness, or the indestructible or undying creatures.
This also means that you can do it every turn, locking opponents out of playing creatures at all.
Although not technically a creature, Smuggler's Copter is really good in this deck with the ability to filter cards into your graveyard.
There is an artifact cost reduction creature in Etherium Sculptor.
Although not an artifact creature, there is also Nightscape Familiar for cost reduction of blue spells.
What nice about these creatures is that if they are in your graveyard then you can copy them with Lazav, and often the 2 you invest into copying one, is recouped straight away with the cost reduction of casting spells. So this feels very efficient during game play.
I have enjoyed using Hex Parasite to provide a loop with undying creatures. You can remove the +1/+1 counters, so you can even look to keep Lazav from being killed by making him an undying creature and then removing the +1/+1 to setup the process again.
I was using Butcher Ghoul with Skullclamp, and then using Hex Parasite to remove the counter. If you use the Phyrexian mana life loss portion, then it essentially works out to 2 and 2 life for drawing 2 cards. You can just keep doing it for as much mana as you want to invest in drawing.
I've even used Hex Parasite on opponents planeswalkers to kill them off. Can be used to remove -1/-1 counters, so excellent with Glen Elendra Archmage. Surprisingly versatile creature.
On subsequent non-creature artifact searches you can get Skullclamp to get further draw from the artifact creatures you are sacrificing to Arcum Dagsson.
-OR-
You can get Lightning Greaves with the non-creature artifact search, and search for Cephalid Illusionist with the Citanul Flute. This way you can put as many cards into graveyard as you want.
-OR-
Simpy go through for any of your other combo creatures, matching them up with maybe artifact mana to help the process.
Skullclamp is really amazing in this deck, you're very happy to kill off your small creatures to get them into your graveyard, whilst also drawing cards in the process.
The Universal Solvent seems like unusual removal, but there have been a number of games where I've had Artificer's Intuition and I've not been able to go for any combo cards because of some graveyard hate card. So it's a catch-all for situations like this. You can always get Mana Crypt and Sol Ring with Artificer's Intuition so getting the 7 mana for Universal Solvent is very doable.
Note that even Maze of Ith and Scavenger Grounds can be destroyed with it, as lands can pose problems as well.
What's not in the deck?
I did have Phage the Untouchable in my first few games, and I did end up actually killing a player with it. However it is 7 mana for the purposes of the kill, and there are just more mana efficient ways to win, so I just found it a little too expensive for what the rest of the deck can operate on.
I found Hunted Horror to be disappointing. It's far better to have creatures that you are happy to naturally cast, and then get killed if needing to go to graveyard. So it can get stuck in your hand, by not wanting to give an opponent 6 power of creatures, that's hard for you to block.
The only creature left in the deck that you really don't want to put into play is Treacherous Pit-Dweller. But the 2 mana undying you can give Lazav is too invaluable to pass up.
As far as Necrotic Ooze combos, there will be plenty of potential combos over what I run in particular. But I specifically stayed away from Phyrexian Devourer with Walking Ballista. The reason is that you actually need to produce 120 converted-mana-cost of spells from the rest of your deck in order to kill say 3 opponents on healthy life. So there is no guarantee of doing this. Specifically doesn't work with milling most/all of your library as well.
Also there is a Grimgrin, Corpse-Born and Bloodline Keeper that could be run, but again the mana cost of these creatures just do not line up well with my very low casting cost approach, if you were cast them naturally. Plus you still need to do something with the +1/+1 counters, so need the additional win-cons.
I did have Mikaeus, the Unhallowed in the first build, but for the reasons of being expensive to cast or copy, I ended up cutting him. Therefore Triskelion is also too expensive for what we are looking to operate on mana wise.
I fully endorse Artificer's Intuition. It is a great card that does very heavy lifting if you are using artifacts.
For your build I would suggest Nether Traitor and Meekstone. The traitor is another very good unblockable creature that offers some self reanimation and the ability to give Lazav haste later in the game. Meekstone can be searched with Artificer's Intuition and is pretty effective at slowing down any battle cruiser creatures your opponents may have.
I stumbled upon your thread while brewing my own - a lot more casual - Lazav, the Multifarious deck. I really like the idea of going with artifacts, though!
I don't know if it is good enough for your liking, but Thran Turbine with your curve and being Artificer's Intuition tutorable could be a worthy include. You have 28 (including Ornithopter :P) creatures he could transform into for free with this. It's no Training Grounds, but it's something.
I fully endorse Artificer's Intuition. It is a great card that does very heavy lifting if you are using artifacts.
For your build I would suggest Nether Traitor and Meekstone. The traitor is another very good unblockable creature that offers some self reanimation and the ability to give Lazav haste later in the game. Meekstone can be searched with Artificer's Intuition and is pretty effective at slowing down any battle cruiser creatures your opponents may have.
Nether Traitor is a good one, the haste is a relevant feature. It's good to be able to potentially have one of each creature ability to pull from if need be.
I stumbled upon your thread while brewing my own - a lot more casual - Lazav, the Multifarious deck. I really like the idea of going with artifacts, though!
I don't know if it is good enough for your liking, but Thran Turbine with your curve and being Artificer's Intuition tutorable could be a worthy include. You have 28 (including Ornithopter :P) creatures he could transform into for free with this. It's no Training Grounds, but it's something.
More a general question, but is Phyrexian Arena really worth it? My meta is a lot less competitive, and even i feel it is too slow.
Crypt Rats is interesting tech for sure. You can put the ability on the stack and then turn Lazav into an indestructible creature. But obviously this requires a fair amount of mana.
I actually played Dimir Infiltrator and Disciple of Deceit in my first build and I found them a little slow. The Dimir Infiltrator is still pretty deece, but I found myself if transmutting it going for Demonic Tutor. How is this bad? Well it's not but it ends up being like a 5 mana tutor. In which case maybe just casting Final Parting is better? This isn't entirely true, as it can just go to your graveyard naturally through mill, etc, to get the unblockable ability.
I did find the Disciple of Deceit was a bit slower than I was hoping. Of course I had designs of changing Lazav into Disciple of Deceit just before my turn to get a tutoring effect going on. But a few things do need to line up. As I was pointing out in the original post trying to get value from from creatures is actually mana intensive. If you're having to make Lazav unblockable to get him tapped and spending mana to make him Disciple of Deceit then it's actually a lot of mana to spend, and is a slow way to search for cards, that are still conditional on the converted-mana-cost in your hand.
Thran Turbine is an interesting one. It could be good, but can't quite wrap my head around how often it'll be good.
Tolarian Winds is something that I should look at, pretty close to Frantic Search. The instant speed is quite good I'd imagine as you can setup before your turn to get the surprise on opponents.
Thran Turbine is an interesting one. It could be good, but can't quite wrap my head around how often it'll be good.
Neither do i - yet.
It's clearly better than Heartstone, does more but is less flexible than Training Grounds.
In the end it all comes down on curve and the number of swaps one has planned. In my case and deck it allows me to swap to 11/32 creatures for free and reduce another 13/21 to 1.
There's another thread of someone who plans on using Lazav, the Multifarious like a toolbox, my deck will only include 3 activated abilities, that could be paid by it so that's no option. But hey, i think Mairsil, the Pretender would be the better pick for that route anyhow.
May i ask about your maybeboard creaturewise? I never mind to get inspired.
Thran Turbine is an interesting one. It could be good, but can't quite wrap my head around how often it'll be good.
Neither do i - yet.
It's clearly better than Heartstone, does more but is less flexible than Training Grounds.
In the end it all comes down on curve and the number of swaps one has planned. In my case and deck it allows me to swap to 11/32 creatures for free and reduce another 13/21 to 1.
There's another thread of someone who plans on using Lazav, the Multifarious like a toolbox, my deck will only include 3 activated abilities, that could be paid by it so that's no option. But hey, i think Mairsil, the Pretender would be the better pick for that route anyhow.
May i ask about your maybeboard creaturewise? I never mind to get inspired.
If I was still running some of the value card advantage creatures like; Maralen of the Mornsong and Kami of the Crescent Moon then Thran Turbine would be much more usable. Turning him into one of these types of creatures in your upkeep gives you much more scope. It must be noted that oracle text does make it "At the beginning of your upkeep", not during, so it does mean that you can't use it in response very well to an upkeep trigger you might have been trying to avoid. For example cumulative upkeeps.
As far as creatures that I'd like to try, I mean I have played a bunch already that I've cut. That's not to say they don't work well with Lazav, but I've just settled on a very low mana curve.
But these are cards that I think could be good; Deadeye Tracker - Cheap creature to copy, and actually the +1/+1 counters you might get from explore is relevant in my deck. But I've been careful to point out that spending your time on value plays like this tends to be a luxury, rather than a full on game plan. Bontu the Glorified - This is probably the one I want to most play the most. Being able to attack/block with Lazav as another creature, can mitigate the attack/block clause of Bontu (and other Amonket Gods). The indestructible part is the ability that is great with Lazav. Sometimes sacrificing a creature can be wanted. I've cast a Pili-Pala before with no way of getting it into my graveyard in a hasty manner for a combo. Cephalid Inkshrouder - You've already pointed this card out, and it's got a lot of what you want. The greedy part for me is that it's 3 mana and not 2 mana like a lot of the others. I should realistically play this over something like Arcbound Ravager from a competitive stand point, but I'm stubborn when it comes to themes. Cavern Harpy - The reason I havent played it, is that you do end up wanting to potentially just cast your creatures, probably with the intent of just getting them killed via blocking or whatever. The thing with a card like this is that it does have a clause, so maybe it does just get stuck in your hand. Erebos, God of the Dead - I really like the industrucble creatures, but I'm thinking I'll probably never use the 1B draw ability, and the Gods that stop being a creature are not as good as the other imo for the reason I was pointing out with Bontu. 4 mana is also a lot.
Deadeye Tracker is one of those corner cases... I like that he's cheap and his ability is solid, but his tap ability isn't strong enough for me to potentially tap down Lazav, the Multifarious. In fact only Jace's Archivist generates enough value that he's allowed to tap my commander.
I really like the explore mechanic though and thought of including it here and in my Alesha, Who Smiles at Death deck. As you don't want that as an ETB effect the only alternative to Deadeye Tracker is Tomb Robber. I think he scales better in the late game, but both of them are outclassed by Stinkweed Imp.
I like the Will-o'-the-Wisp. I think this looks to be a solid evasion+protection creature. I think I might just have to replace the Vault Skirge with it as life gain isn't really that great, even if it is part of the robots theme.
I am pursuing a lantern control style dream. The idea is to use Lantern of Insight or Wizened Snitches to grant me knowledge of my opponents upcoming draw, then I can use Codex Shredder or preferably Mindshrieker to sculpt their draws. Phyrexian Devourer is both a combo piece and a way to sculpt my draws for the better.
Now that I have finally taken the time to type this up, it looks like I am using far less artifacts than I though I was. I may have to give this list another revision. either remove the heavy artifact support, or double down and add more artifact combo pieces. I was thinking about a Salvaging Station package and Sai, Master Thopterist but that may be another entirely different deck. I could help changing the list while I was posting it. I think I figured out how to include the above.
I am running very few unblockable creatures. Instead most of them are utility creatures with either 1 power or 1 toughness that I can make unblockable with Tetsuko Umezawa, Fugitive.
Is Crackdown Construct too slow and tricky to pull off for this deck, even though it fits the robo theme? Its another card along with the Cephalid to combo off with Lightning Greaves, and you can pay a bunch of life with Hex Parasite to one-shot someone (or with Vector Asp's infect its much less life but much more mana), but the real combo is to target Ornithopter, Walking Ballista or any other 0 cost artifact creature in your yard infinite times with Lasav to pump up Lasav infinitely (and it doesn't matter if the creature Lasav becomes is 0/0, he'll get the Crackdown pump first before copying it and then all the other pumps will still apply). Then you just need to give Lasav evasion (Ornithopter comes pre-built with it) and someone's dead.
What do you think about more Surveil and Surveil matters cards in a slightly more casual build of the deck, i.e. Enhanced Surveillance, Nightveil Sprite, Disinformation Campaign? If you surveil even just twice, the extra 4 cards you get to see with Enhanced Surveillance can help you dig into your deck to set up combos, any more cards than that and its overperforming. You can always loot it away if you draw it late (since the real strength is playing this turn 2 and then playing Lasav, it just seems very consistently strong when played early), plus the shuffle effect can help you protect your combo pieces from graveyard hate so you can tutor them up again later. The Sprite is similar to the loot creatures and is an additional source of evasion for Lasav, but surveiling is quite a bit worse than looting, though its very strong with the other cards listed I here. Campaign, along with some other card advantage/filter surveil cards I might run like Notion Rain and Discovery // Dispersal, seems like a good source of sustain in a deck that will most likely combo off slower than your build and thus will need some amount of sustain to keep going past my opponent's interaction and threats, but maybe its still too slow even for that.
This far I don't think there are too many worthwhile Surveil cards. Nightveil Sprite comes with evasion and surveils pre combat damage, which is a lot better than looting with tiny combat damage. Overall enough value for me to run it.
The only other possible include would be Notion Rain, though for that mana you can get better (pseudo) wheels. It will serve as a filler card until other orders arrived, but isn't set to stay in the deck.
A slow, yet decent alternative option would be Monastery Siege, because both modes are pretty good.
Would be great to see more Surveil support in the block though, because I really like the mechanic.
Wow, I was already in love with Lazav, but this list got me even more excited. Plus, the discussed Crackdown Construct combos just blew my mind; I love it.
Is Crackdown Construct too slow and tricky to pull off for this deck, even though it fits the robo theme? Its another card along with the Cephalid to combo off with Lightning Greaves, and you can pay a bunch of life with Hex Parasite to one-shot someone (or with Vector Asp's infect its much less life but much more mana), but the real combo is to target Ornithopter, Walking Ballista or any other 0 cost artifact creature in your yard infinite times with Lasav to pump up Lasav infinitely (and it doesn't matter if the creature Lasav becomes is 0/0, he'll get the Crackdown pump first before copying it and then all the other pumps will still apply). Then you just need to give Lasav evasion (Ornithopter comes pre-built with it) and someone's dead.
What do you think about more Surveil and Surveil matters cards in a slightly more casual build of the deck, i.e. Enhanced Surveillance, Nightveil Sprite, Disinformation Campaign? If you surveil even just twice, the extra 4 cards you get to see with Enhanced Surveillance can help you dig into your deck to set up combos, any more cards than that and its overperforming. You can always loot it away if you draw it late (since the real strength is playing this turn 2 and then playing Lasav, it just seems very consistently strong when played early), plus the shuffle effect can help you protect your combo pieces from graveyard hate so you can tutor them up again later. The Sprite is similar to the loot creatures and is an additional source of evasion for Lasav, but surveiling is quite a bit worse than looting, though its very strong with the other cards listed I here. Campaign, along with some other card advantage/filter surveil cards I might run like Notion Rain and Discovery // Dispersal, seems like a good source of sustain in a deck that will most likely combo off slower than your build and thus will need some amount of sustain to keep going past my opponent's interaction and threats, but maybe its still too slow even for that.
Well now that's a complete combo. Crackdown Construct plus any zero costing creature. I'll definitely give it a go, and now I think I'll have to slot back in Hangarback Walker.
As far as surveil goes, there isn't a lot of cards that impress me for commander multiplayer too be honest. I did actually play Doom Whisperer in my first build, and i'ts always going to be a fine card, but didn't fit my low mana curve in the end.
The best way of describing surveil is it is still nickle and diming your way to get your graveyard as a resource, but there are just much more broken ways of doing this in an eternal format.
I could see Nightveil Sprite being alright, but I will point out that a card like Merfolk Looter is straight up better. You actually get to draw the card, so you can keep it and discard another potentially, or discard it straight away with a Merfolk Looter. Where as surveil is only being able to put into graveyard. Merfolk Looter doesn't need to attack either.
Surveil is a nice ability, but as I say in a format that packs a lot of powerful draw cards, I feel it struggles a bit to compete.
I do rate Price of Fame highly however, and it probably correct for me to run at least one creature removal card, and I think I'd pick this one for the deck, for it's ability to pick off commanders for 1B and you get the surveil 2.
As far as surveil goes, there isn't a lot of cards that impress me for commander multiplayer too be honest. I did actually play Doom Whisperer in my first build, and i'ts always going to be a fine card, but didn't fit my low mana curve in the end.
The best way of describing surveil is it is still nickle and diming your way to get your graveyard as a resource, but there are just much more broken ways of doing this in an eternal format.
I could see Nightveil Sprite being alright, but I will point out that a card like Merfolk Looter is straight up better. You actually get to draw the card, so you can keep it and discard another potentially, or discard it straight away with a Merfolk Looter. Where as surveil is only being able to put into graveyard. Merfolk Looter doesn't need to attack either.
Surveil is a nice ability, but as I say in a format that packs a lot of powerful draw cards, I feel it struggles a bit to compete.
I do rate Price of Fame highly however, and it probably correct for me to run at least one creature removal card, and I think I'd pick this one for the deck, for it's ability to pick off commanders for 1B and you get the surveil 2.
Yeah I was planning on playing Price as well, when I was looking to take this deck and add my own pet cards/meta calls the lack of removal really jumped out to me. My more casual build would probably run that + Sinister Sabotage over Force of Will as a budget+thematic alternative. The other clunky cards I mentioned probably aren't worth it though, but I'm gonna try Enhanced Surveillance to see if supercharging Lasav is enough to make it worth it.
Yeah I was planning on playing Price as well, when I was looking to take this deck and add my own pet cards/meta calls the lack of removal really jumped out to me. My more casual build would probably run that + Sinister Sabotage over Force of Will as a budget+thematic alternative. The other clunky cards I mentioned probably aren't worth it though, but I'm gonna try Enhanced Surveillance to see if supercharging Lasav is enough to make it worth it.
I feel like Enhanced Surveillance has a lot of potential if you're running Surveil already. But my real draw to it is a protection card against Bojuka Bogs and the like.
I am not sold on Enhanced Surveillance. It has been my experience that if you want to run a card that references a keyword, you will need to run at least 10 other cards with that keyword. Exceptions can be made if your commander has the key word, but in this case Lazav only surveil's when he enters the battlefield. I don't see him triggering enough times for that.
If you want an effect that can protect you graveyard, Elixir of Immortality is probably best.
I am not sold on Enhanced Surveillance. It has been my experience that if you want to run a card that references a keyword, you will need to run at least 10 other cards with that keyword. Exceptions can be made if your commander has the key word, but in this case Lazav only surveil's when he enters the battlefield. I don't see him triggering enough times for that.
If you want an effect that can protect you graveyard, Elixir of Immortality is probably best.
I tend to agree, like you're really playing the Enhanced Surveillance for the "Exile Enhanced Surveillance: Shuffle your graveyard into your library.", rather than getting much value out of surveil aspect. At the end of the day there are just way more efficient ways to get cards into your graveyard.
However I have been graveyard hated out of my win conditions before, and Elixir of Immortality does require that you hold up 2, which you'll have to trust me is super hard in a deck like Lazav. I honestly think that you're going to caught out trying to use Elixir.
But that's why it's actually nice to have several different win condition packages, and if you play well, try and not fill your graveyard with various pieces from each set.
Sometimes it pays to keep them in hand, even if the opportunity to discard them arises. For example there really are 4 main win conditions;
4) Crackdown Construct + any zero costing creature in graveyard + evasion creature in graveyard.
Try and just setup your graveyard for one of them if possible. Meaning that you have more win conditions that you can setup for in the face of graveyard hate.
I have been giving it some thought. The thing that is turning me off about Enhanced Surveillance is that my artifact tutors cant find it for me. I did some more research on gatherer. At first I was going to switch to Feldon's Cane, but I eventually decided on Thran Foundry. With the foundry I still have to keep mana open, but not as much, and it functions as grave hate against my opponents in a pinch.
What are your thoughts on masticore for this deck?
I have been giving it some thought. The thing that is turning me off about Enhanced Surveillance is that my artifact tutors cant find it for me. I did some more research on gatherer. At first I was going to switch to Feldon's Cane, but I eventually decided on Thran Foundry. With the foundry I still have to keep mana open, but not as much, and it functions as grave hate against my opponents in a pinch.
What are your thoughts on masticore for this deck?
Actually in the 'Lets Brew' thread I had researched lots of the 'upkeep' creatures to see what could be potentially mitigated with Lazav. I'll just repost my results.
I looked up creatures with sort of downside to their upkeeps with the idea that you can swap what Lazav is to mitigate payment costs or whatever, if you have other cheap creatures to swamp before a clause happens.
You can in fact use Cumulative upkeeps with "age counters" as transferable resource.
So for example if you've used Flow of Maggots for it's evasion and you've also kept it's upkeep cost for say 3 turns and have 3 age counters on Lazav.
Then later on in the game this can be used with say Herald of Leshrac or Vexing Sphinx to get the bonuses.
More +1/+1 counters; Vebulid - will need a +1/+1 counter from another source first Necroplasm - can change before end of turn once has the 3 +1/+1 counters. Good thing is that you can change it during the game if needing to remove creatures, and use other +1/+1 to get it past the natural 3 counters. Khabál Ghoul
Chronozoa - Lazav will not have any counters, so you'll get the split straight away. Unfortunately needs to "die", so you want backup graveyard removal or reanimation, otherwise he'll remain there. Forgotten Creation - fueling graveyard
The problem is that you'd be spending 4 mana turning him into Masticore each turn, even if you have Ornithopter to turn him into before your upkeep, that is just so mana intensive. Even with Training Grounds in play it'll be unplayable.
You'll just never have the mana to actually use the Masticore abilities as well.
I've had another look through your deck and there are some really sweet stuff in there. I think I'm going to play Sai, Master Thopterist. Seems like a good way to get extra value.
I noticed you play all the Stifle effects, Nimble Obstructionist, Stifle, Trickbind. Must be pretty scared of Bojuka Bog, and rightfully so. I think I should play at least Stifle, so that I have some long term answer for it.
How has Unfulfilled Desires been? Looks like a pretty strong card in general and I'm certainly thinking of trying it. Basically all the creatures are disposable from your hand, so for me that's about 1/3 of the deck.
For your deck there is possible Zur's Weirding for your Lantern theme.
Thank you. I never really took notice of the Let's Brew thread. I was on the fence about masticore, but I think you are right. I'll be giving him a pass.
I noticed you play all the Stifle effects, Nimble Obstructionist, Stifle, Trickbind. Must be pretty scared of Bojuka Bog, and rightfully so. I think I should play at least Stifle, so that I have some long term answer for it.
I have picked up a reputation among my LGS as the dedicated graveyard player, as I have yet to build a deck that does not use it in some capacity. That means everyone holds onto their grave hate just for me. Those spells also help with Planeswalker ultimates and Eldrazi cast triggers, which can always ruin your day.
How has Unfulfilled Desires been? Looks like a pretty strong card in general and I'm certainly thinking of trying it. Basically all the creatures are disposable from your hand, so for me that's about 1/3 of the deck.
I have extensive experience with this card thanks to the various incarnations of my Grimgrin, Corpse-Born deck. In that deck I has lost track of the times I have used it to dig for an answer or a win condition. I have also lost track of the number of times doing so has nearly killed me! It will keep the game interesting at least. If you are durdling and finding nothing, it is over quick.
For your deck there is possible Zur's Weirding for your Lantern theme
I like that. It allows the group to get in the action too. Unfortunately I have had to drop the lantern focus from my build. It is a strategy that still think could work but it is divergent from artifact centered build. Trying to do both causes a loss in synergy. I may put together a list that focus on Lantern control, but for now I have doubled down on artifacts.
This is my updated list. I used yours as template. One major change I had to make was the mana base. I can't afford most MOX cards, so I'll have to see if I can still make 30 land work.
Library of Leng - We are both running enough cards with discarding as a part of the effect that I figured this might come in handy. I hate loosing my Cyclonic Rift because I had a handful of things that needed to be in the grave. A note to others: This does work with cards where discarding is part of the cost like Artificer's Intuition
Salvage Slasher - This is my back up Phyrexian Dreadnought. I know they don't seem similar, but their function within the deck is very close. In both cases it is preferable to make Lazav a copy after he has gone unblocked. Phyrexian Dreadnought is strictly better because his size is unconditional and he costs less to copy, Salvage Slasher will scale later in the game as your graveyard fills. He also isn't as recognizable as Phyrexian Dreadnought, slowing the hate he will receive in graveyard.
Noteworthy is that I have omitted Crackdown Construct from the list. I feel like he and Phyrexian Devourer were fighting for the same slot. Crackdown Construct gets bigger overall, but after Lazav becomes a 21/21 his size is not relevant anymore. In terms of a hard cast, Phyrexian Devourer does cost more, but I still prefer him for aid in top deck control and his ability to combo with other cards in the deck.
Noteworthy is that I have omitted Crackdown Construct from the list. I feel like he and Phyrexian Devourer were fighting for the same slot. Crackdown Construct gets bigger overall, but after Lazav becomes a 21/21 his size is not relevant anymore. In terms of a hard cast, Phyrexian Devourer does cost more, but I still prefer him for aid in top deck control and his ability to combo with other cards in the deck.
Your deck is looking much refined now. I really like the Riddlesmith, that is some sweet tech. I have been reducing my artifact count a bit since I first posted my list, so I think I'd be borderline on play it. So I think Riddlesmith and Sai, Master Thopterist will be the next cards for me to give a try.
I do like the Salvage Slasher in your list. I'm just not quite artifact heavy enough to get value out of it. There is Phyrexian Soulgorger as an "alternative" to Phyrexian Devourer as well. Believe it or not, there are even situation where you want to use the sacrifice ability to get a creature into the graveyard. There are often times you'll draw a Pili-Pala, Vector Asp, etc and want it in your graveyard, for a combo. I normally play them out if I don't have discard, hoping to just block and kill them, or run into a board wipe
But Phyrexian Soulgorger does give you access to guaranteeing this.
I do think you should run a few more counterspells. I mean if you're worried about graveyard hate, then you should also be worried about artifact mass removal, or hate.
A Vandalblast, Austere Command, Stony Silence, is going to ruin you. So I lean on a few counterspells to react to these types of spells.
I've been very impressed with the Crackdown Construct. Thanks to @Stapler for that suggestion. The great thing about it is that you can pull it off with just putting Crackdown Construct into play. So you don't need Lazav to be a copy of it. I kind of didn't think of this at first. So you don't need to set it up into your graveyard, which a lot of the other combos lean on. You obviously want to catch opponents of a blocker, or have something like Thassa, God of the Sea to make it unblockable, but I have won off just killing an opponent off guard with cracking in (pun intended) with the Crackdown Construct itself.
If you're playing inexperience players, then you can do this after blockers, so they might not even know that you can do it. Sort of looks like a harmless 2/2 coming in.
You still need a zero cost creature in your graveyard, but I have 3 of these.
I do like the Salvage Slasher in your list. I'm just not quite artifact heavy enough to get value out of it. There is Phyrexian Soulgorger as an "alternative" to Phyrexian Devourer as well. Believe it or not, there are even situation where you want to use the sacrifice ability to get a creature into the graveyard. There are often times you'll draw a Pili-Pala, Vector Asp, etc and want it in your graveyard, for a combo. I normally play them out if I don't have discard, hoping to just block and kill them, or run into a board wipe
But Phyrexian Soulgorger does give you access to guaranteeing this.
I have Reshape, Trading Post, and Arcum Dagsson that are also solutions to that problem. I do like the interaction Phyrexian Soulgorger has with Hex Parasite. 1B is not a bad tax to keep an 8/8 trampler around for a turn or 2 in the early game. I just wish I hadn't sold my copy of that card in a big pile 2 months ago for some fetch lands. After I trying out both The Mimeoplasm and Varolz, the Scar-Striped and disliking them, I figured I would not need it again. The only reason I kept Phyrexian Dreadnought is that I thought it would be better to keep as a trader.
I do think you should run a few more counterspells. I mean if you're worried about graveyard hate, then you should also be worried about artifact mass removal, or hate.
A Vandalblast, Austere Command, Stony Silence, is going to ruin you. So I lean on a few counterspells to react to these types of spells.
I don't see those specific cards very often, but that is a meta thing could change. I do sometimes see a Merciless Eviction and many opposing Cyclonic Rifts.
I have Reshape, Trading Post, and Arcum Dagsson that are also solutions to that problem. I do like the interaction Phyrexian Soulgorger has with Hex Parasite. 1B is not a bad tax to keep an 8/8 trampler around for a turn or 2 in the early game. I just wish I hadn't sold my copy of that card in a big pile 2 months ago for some fetch lands. After I trying out both The Mimeoplasm and Varolz, the Scar-Striped and disliking them, I figured I would not need it again. The only reason I kept Phyrexian Dreadnought is that I thought it would be better to keep as a trader.
You can also change Lazav into another creature to avoid the cumulative upkeep altogether. I hadn't thought about Hex Parasite with cumulative upkeeps!
Arcum Dagsson looks incredible in your build. I don't have that many non-creature artifacts that are too worthwhile to search for. Skullclamp would be nice to grab, but I would need to play some more utility artifacts to truly warrant a slot.
But I do have 16 artifact creatures, so I think this is enough if I did decide to run him. I think if I did, then I might seriously look at Citanul Flute. That way you can sacrifice an artifact creature to put it into play, then you can easily search for another cheap artifact creature. Keep looping this. Hmm, I like this.
I dearly wanted to get Silas Renn, Seeker Adept being a superstar in my original deck, but in the end even though he has deathtouch, I found it impossible to attack into an opponent without him simply being killed.
So I think having some card dedicated to making him and of course Lazav as well unblockable will help.
You do have Key to the City and Thassa, God of the Sea, but you could look for more options.
As far as cuts, I not convinced on Lotus Bloom. It's not the sort of deck that's looking to exploded once you hit a certain mana threshold. You can't cast it from graveyard (Silas Renn, Seeker Adept).
Also not sure about As Foretold in your deck. I prefer decks that have a lot of instants, as then you can use it in opponents turns to get much more value from it. Otherwise it's kind of slow and only really providing mana in your turn. It's not terrible, but also not the best. You might literally be better off playing something like Thran Dynamo or Gilded Lotus, as at least you can search for it with Arcum Dagsson. Plus that mana can be used to activate Lazav.
It took me a while to even start with a theme, as there are really quite a few different ways to tackle this commander.
When I make and post deck lists, I'm not always trying to present "the best" deck that you might be able to build, but rather unique angles or themes, so that it gives potential deck makers a take that they might not have seen or thought about before.
My first brew I was really hoping to do a lot of different things each game. But what happened is that I ended up always winning the same way.
It was turning Lazav into Vector Asp and Phyrexian Dreadnought, along with some evasive creature, mostly Invisible Stalker.
You can give Lazav infect until end of turn, and then change him into a 12/12 trampler, and that is usually enough to kill a player.
So why did it end up being this most of the time? Well it's super mana efficient firstly. But thing with competitive games of commander, is that somebody is usually going off and getting ahead, and you don't have time to setup necessarily your own card advantages. I just found myself pressured enough to try and eliminate at least one player who is threatening to win, and this is a very efficient way of killing that player.
So what's the problem? Well no real problem, just became a bit linear and frankly boring. You do the same thing 5 games in a row and it feels like just about time to shelve the deck.
What ended up being "meh"?
I will give you some insight into additional themes I was trying to play into, so that it might help with what you might have planned with your build of Lazav. The first one was "value creatures". The idea was to get to copy some creatures to gain some card draw, etc.
For me these included Maralen of the Mornsong, Silas Renn, Seeker Adept, Sygg, River Cutthroat, Kami of the Crescent Moon, Disciple of Deceit. Copying these creatures from your graveyard, you can wait for example until end of opponents turn to make Lazav into Maralen of the Mornsong to tutor for a card, and then turn Lazav into something else so that opponents don't get the same benefits.
I really liked the idea of turning Lazav into Silas Renn, Seeker Adept, and then casting Silas Renn from your graveyard as an artifact (from the trigger of the first one), and then you'll get two versions in play, as Lazav is still unique. It's not often that you can get two of the same type of legendary creatures in play.
So what's the problem? Well, the thing with spending mana to make Lazav different creatures is that it is mana intensive, even if the converted-mana-cost of the creatures is only 2 or 3 mana. The fact of the matter is that you can never have enough mana to bounce around different creatures the way you'd like to in your head. If you're being aggressive with Lazav, trying to attack with some sort of big hit combo, then it's unlikely that you can look to also get value from him as well, or for the matter protect him. By protect I mean leaving up enough mana to turn him into a hexproof, indestructible or undying creature.
So in the end you need to pick a lane, if you're lucky two lanes, but you can't look to do everything. It turns out that the lane that gets you the least ahead is medium value, so turning him into something like Jace, Vryn's Prodigy is fine, but you'll find on average that games are pushing the action too much to have turns like that. You still need mana to cast spells as well, to further your board or disrupt your opponents.
I also was trying a number of different infinite combos, as I really like to break down commanders and their synergies with infinite's. However in the end I just found I wasn't getting them, as I already mentioned every game I just ended up doing the same aggressive 12/12 infect attacks, rather than setting up for complicated combo sequences. The other problem is that some of those combo cards, didn't really have a broad spectrum of uses, so often were fairly useless until you have the complete combo. In this regard I normally like to have cards that have cross synergies, so that I can feel the slot is warranted, and some of these I felt just didn't work out.
These included Phyrexian Altar and Ashnod's Altar. Most of you will recognize these as super powerful cards in the right build, but unfortunately for my deck they ended up being too specialized to one particular combo, so much of the time were not used for any value at all. So these types of specialized combo cards were cut.
With the next iteration of the deck I played, I had been enjoying the unblockable part of the combos, so I went for a low to the ground unblockable/flying squad, with the idea that I would lean on some draw enchantments; Bident of Thassa, Coastal Piracy and Thopter Spy Network, to gain card advantage.
This was pretty short lived, it turns out if you don't draw one of those cards, your small squad sucks, lol.
Robot Spy Drones.
The current build I've gone to an idea that I was floating around in the Let's Brew thread, and that was utilizing artifact creatures and +1/+1 counters. With Lazav ability to become different creatures, you can potentially toolbox how those +1/+1 counters are used. If he is a Walking Ballista then he can deal damage. If he is a Mindless Automaton then he can use them for draw and discarding cards to your graveyard.
But the reason I've gone down the path of a heavy artifact build is for two reasons.
Around about 1/3 of the deck is artifacts, so you're likely to have the fuel for it at any given time. You can go through for Ornithopter, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Vector Asp, each pitching the other to search for the next one, and then even on the last search maybe get Mana Crypt to help with the mana costs of turning Lazav between the creatures.
On top of this I'm also using Necrotic Ooze combos. The reason is that although Phyrexian Dreadnought and Vector Asp is very efficient at killing a single player, sometimes you need to find the opportunity to kill everybody at once.
I'm using Pili-Pala in combination with a bunch of different mana producing creatures to get infinite mana; Palladium Myr, Metalworker, Apprentice Wizard.
Millikin doesn't provide infinite mana, but it does put cards into your graveyard, which will find you these other cards to actually win.
You can get infinite mana with Necrotic Ooze using Pili-Pala and a mana creature that can tap for two or more mana both in your graveyard. With infinite mana you have a lot of different cards that you can win with.
Walking Ballista is the main one I use, but you can also use Kefnet the Mindful or Mindless Automaton to draw into what you need.
So with a bunch of artifact creatures already for combos, it reminded me of "Affinity" themes you'd find in Modern, and I thought I'd just run with this idea a little bit more with some additional artifact creature synergies.
Graveyard as a resource.
Using your graveyard as a resource is one of the main ways to victory, so anything that can put massive amounts of cards into your graveyard is going to help you. There is Mirror-Mad Phantasm, as well as Cephalid Illusionist with Lightning Greaves that can put your library into your graveyard. With Lazav ability to copy a creature, often you can make him the Necrotic Ooze for a win.
There are lots more interactions, combos and synergies, but I'll go into more detail in the card choices section.
This is definetely early days for this commander, I'd like to hear what other people have been brewing or changes they think I could make, or cards that I should include.
Let's make this clear from the start, when you end up resolving a Buried Alive or Intuition, then your odds on winning are very high. You have a variety of different modes to choose your opponents ultimate demise.
So in this respect it can be a linear strategy. But as long as you build your deck to also be fun in other ways you can get a lot of enjoyment from any deck you base around Lazav.
In general the converted-mana-cost of the creatures, and really the entire deck is very low. Currently it has a literally average casting cost of 2.07. Which is pretty amazing for how powerful the combination of the cards actually are.
I will touch upon Artificer's Intuition again, because this really is the main reason I built this deck in the first place. This will provide you all the tools you need to start killing opponents with a huge infect creature.
I've purposefully kept a high count of artifacts in the deck, so that you are more likely to have one in hand, in addition to some that you might have played out to keep up a board presence.
So rather than playing some extra lands, you'll find the zero costing 'Mox' artifacts like; Mox Opal, Chrome Mox, Mox Diamond, Mox Amber. These help with speed, but also as I say potential fodder for Artificer's Intuition.
There is also the artifact lands in Seat of the Synod and Vault of Whispers, so these are even transferable if you're wanting lands, or maybe the combo creatures.
There are some protection creatures that you can turn Lazav into if you've manage to put them into your graveyard at some stage.
For indestructible you have Thassa, God of the Sea, Kefnet the Mindful.
For hexproof you have Invisible Stalker.
For undying you have Treacherous Pit-Dweller and Butcher Ghoul. Undying can be very good if faced with a board wipe, as you can turn Lazav into one if the undying creatures, and let him go to graveyard, to return with a +1/+1 counter.
There is also Nightscape Familiar for regeneration.
So leaving enough mana, usually between 2-3 to make Lazav some of these creatures does help to stifle your opponents plans of removing him.
How to get creatures into your graveyard?
There are a number of cards that allow you to put cards from your hand into the graveyard; Wharf Infiltrator, Looter il-Kor, Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, Smuggler's Copter, Jace's Archivist, Artificer's Intuition, Frantic Search, Tolarian Winds.
The nice thing about having such low costing creatures, is that you can just simply cast them and you don't care if they get destroyed. They end up being very handy blockers against aggressive decks, buying you time.
There are also a number of cards that will put cards into graveyard from your library; Lazav, the Multifarious, Entomb, Buried Alive, Intuition, Search for Azcanta, Millikin, Mirror-Mad Phantasm, (Cephalid Illusionist + Lightning Greaves).
If you have an Entomb in your starting hand then you can look to cast Lazav on Turn 1 (Mox artifacts) or Turn 2 and then look to hit with 12 commander damage (Phyrexian Dreadnought) the following turn. It can often be too much for your opponents to deal with as it presents each one of them with a two turn clock. You certainly end up killing at least one person, before they can do anything. It's pretty brutal too be honest.
Mirror-Mad Phantasm is special in that not only will it potentially put tons of cards into your graveyard by itself, but you can also use Lazav to copy it and then the rule where because the "card" it is looking for won't actually be "Mirror-Mad Phantasm", you can mill your entire deck at once. You'll need to be able to cast Lazav again to combo win with for example with Necrotic Ooze, so you just need to keep in mind that you do need quite a bit of mana if you're looking to combo this way.
You can cast Cephalid Illusionist (or use Lazav to copy) and keep swapping Lightning Greaves between this and another creature, and each time the triggered ability will happen. So you can mill as much as your library as you want.
You could make a potentially more competitive build that focuses on "having no library" for wins.
You can also build them to have a Dread Return package, so that you don't even need Lazav back in play. Because Dread Return can be flashed back by sacrificing 3 creatures, you can run support cards like, Fatestitcher, Narcomoeba to help you reach that number. These can all be played from your graveyard.
In the end I'm not running these, well because I like to keep things a bit fresh for myself. But I need to be respectful that other players are looking to do this sort of stuff for the first time, or for the most competitive build, so by all means these are very strong cards and plays to put into a Lazav deck.
Having a number of creatures that are unblockable does come in handy for alpha strikes attacks with Lazav; Blighted Agent, Invisible Stalker, Nether Traitor, Wharf Infiltrator, Looter il-Kor.
Wharf Infiltrator and Looter il-Kor are nice in that you can use them for card filtering, putting creatures, etc into your graveyard.
Even without infect the Phyrexian Dreadnought can still make Lazav hit for 12 damage, and with commander 21 damage rule, it can kill players in a couple of hits.
You can copy Crackdown Construct with Lazav and then you can copy any zero costing creature in your graveyard as many times as you want to make Lazav get infinite +1/+1 until end of turn. You just need to make sure you keep responding to making him the zero cost creature, before it resolves, so that he remains Crackdown Construct for as long as you want. Even with the creatures like Walking Ballista and Hangarback Walker which are 0/0, Lazav will get the bonus of +1/+1 before he resolves into one of them, so will remain alive.
There is a combo using Jace's Archivist and Notion Thief together. With Lazav being able to copy creatures from your graveyard, you can even setup a Buried Alive or Intuition.
If both of them are in your graveyard then you can make Lazav the Jace's Archivist and use the discard draw ability, make sure you respond to it before it resolves by making Lazav the Notion Thief. Opponents will be left probably empty handed, while you will have..well a lot.
I've already mentioned winning with Necrotic Ooze. You can get infinite mana, and this normally means some other broken plays.
Grand Architect can also be used with Pili-Pala in play. You can make the Pili-Pala a blue creature, so that you can tap it for 2 arifact mana and use this to untap itself for gaining the mana.
It's important to note that Necrotic Ooze cannot use the Grand Architect with Pili-Pala as the Ooze is not an artifact to start with.
So you still need one of the mana producing creature in your graveyard; Palladium Myr, Metalworker, Apprentice Wizard for the Necrotic Ooze to go infinite. The reason I like to run this is that you can have some redundancy with 3 creatures that do this, and you're happy to draw these at anytime during the game as they do provide mana in general.
If you have 4 artifacts in hand, you can look to use Metalworker and Pili-Pala with Lazav by himself to gain infinite mana. You need 5 to keep switching Lazav between the two creatures and the 2 to activate the Pili-Pala, so this will net you a mana each time.
Training Grounds is obviously one of the signature cards of the deck, allowing you to much more easily switch between creatures.
But it also opens up some infinite's with Pili-Pala, Palladium Myr/Metalworker/Apprentice Wizard and Lazav by himself as well. As it only costs 1 to switch Lazav between each creature, and then Pili-Pala activation is also reduced you can net mana each time to you rotate around Pili-Pala and one of the mana creatures.
This also means that you can use the creatures that produce at least one mana to also combo with the Necrotic Ooze and Pili-Pala to get infinite mana; Millikin, Leaden Myr, Silver Myr.
Glen Elendra Archmage is a great control card, and I've even used it with Lazav copying it, or Necrotic Ooze. You might get the infinite combos, but say not have a "win-con". I've used Glen Elendra Archmage as a pseudo win-con as opponents couldn't cast non-creature spells, as I could keep countering everything, and then removing the -1/-1 counters, with some of the +1/+1 counter creatures.
Crypt Rats is a great catch all for destroying creatures. A clever trick is to make Lazav the Crypt Rats if in your graveyard, then you can put the damage effect on the stack and then turn Lazav into another creature that would survive the effect. For example Phyrexian Dreadnought with 12 toughness, or the indestructible or undying creatures.
This also means that you can do it every turn, locking opponents out of playing creatures at all.
Robot Spy Drones.
Artifact creatures in the deck are Ornithopter, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Vector Asp, Hex Parasite, Etherium Sculptor, Millikin, Leaden Myr, Silver Myr, Pili-Pala, Baleful Strix, Smuggler's Copter, Metalworker, Crackdown Construct, Walking Ballista, Hangarback Walker.
Although not technically a creature, Smuggler's Copter is really good in this deck with the ability to filter cards into your graveyard.
There is an artifact cost reduction creature in Etherium Sculptor.
Although not an artifact creature, there is also Nightscape Familiar for cost reduction of blue spells.
What nice about these creatures is that if they are in your graveyard then you can copy them with Lazav, and often the 2 you invest into copying one, is recouped straight away with the cost reduction of casting spells. So this feels very efficient during game play.
I have enjoyed using Hex Parasite to provide a loop with undying creatures. You can remove the +1/+1 counters, so you can even look to keep Lazav from being killed by making him an undying creature and then removing the +1/+1 to setup the process again.
I was using Butcher Ghoul with Skullclamp, and then using Hex Parasite to remove the counter. If you use the Phyrexian mana life loss portion, then it essentially works out to 2 and 2 life for drawing 2 cards. You can just keep doing it for as much mana as you want to invest in drawing.
I've even used Hex Parasite on opponents planeswalkers to kill them off. Can be used to remove -1/-1 counters, so excellent with Glen Elendra Archmage. Surprisingly versatile creature.
Because there are 16 artifact creatures, Arcum Dagsson can be used consistently to get non-creature artifacts. There is a mini-combo where you can get Citanul Flute. Because the creatures in the deck are so cheap, you can look to spend little mana on the searches. Of course you can go for the classic Vector Asp, Phyrexian Dreadnought. You can even just tap the Citanul Flute to get Ornithopter, Walking Ballista, Hangarback Walker.
On subsequent non-creature artifact searches you can get Skullclamp to get further draw from the artifact creatures you are sacrificing to Arcum Dagsson.
-OR-
You can get Lightning Greaves with the non-creature artifact search, and search for Cephalid Illusionist with the Citanul Flute. This way you can put as many cards into graveyard as you want.
-OR-
Simpy go through for any of your other combo creatures, matching them up with maybe artifact mana to help the process.
Skullclamp is really amazing in this deck, you're very happy to kill off your small creatures to get them into your graveyard, whilst also drawing cards in the process.
The Universal Solvent seems like unusual removal, but there have been a number of games where I've had Artificer's Intuition and I've not been able to go for any combo cards because of some graveyard hate card. So it's a catch-all for situations like this. You can always get Mana Crypt and Sol Ring with Artificer's Intuition so getting the 7 mana for Universal Solvent is very doable.
Note that even Maze of Ith and Scavenger Grounds can be destroyed with it, as lands can pose problems as well.
What's not in the deck?
I did have Phage the Untouchable in my first few games, and I did end up actually killing a player with it. However it is 7 mana for the purposes of the kill, and there are just more mana efficient ways to win, so I just found it a little too expensive for what the rest of the deck can operate on.
I found Hunted Horror to be disappointing. It's far better to have creatures that you are happy to naturally cast, and then get killed if needing to go to graveyard. So it can get stuck in your hand, by not wanting to give an opponent 6 power of creatures, that's hard for you to block.
The only creature left in the deck that you really don't want to put into play is Treacherous Pit-Dweller. But the 2 mana undying you can give Lazav is too invaluable to pass up.
As far as Necrotic Ooze combos, there will be plenty of potential combos over what I run in particular. But I specifically stayed away from Phyrexian Devourer with Walking Ballista. The reason is that you actually need to produce 120 converted-mana-cost of spells from the rest of your deck in order to kill say 3 opponents on healthy life. So there is no guarantee of doing this. Specifically doesn't work with milling most/all of your library as well.
Also there is a Grimgrin, Corpse-Born and Bloodline Keeper that could be run, but again the mana cost of these creatures just do not line up well with my very low casting cost approach, if you were cast them naturally. Plus you still need to do something with the +1/+1 counters, so need the additional win-cons.
I did have Mikaeus, the Unhallowed in the first build, but for the reasons of being expensive to cast or copy, I ended up cutting him. Therefore Triskelion is also too expensive for what we are looking to operate on mana wise.
1 Lazav, the Multifarious
Creatures
1 Ornithopter
1 Phyrexian Dreadnought
1 Vector Asp
1 Hex Parasite
1 Blighted Agent
1 Invisible Stalker
1 Wharf Infiltrator
1 Looter il-Kor
1 Nether Traitor
1 Gilded Drake
1 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
1 Dark Confidant
1 Cephalid Illusionist
1 Treacherous Pit-Dweller
1 Butcher Ghoul
1 Nightscape Familiar
1 Etherium Sculptor
1 Millikin
1 Leaden Myr
1 Silver Myr
1 Pili-Pala
1 Baleful Strix
1 Smuggler's Copter
1 Thassa, God of the Sea
1 Kefnet the Mindful
1 Grand Architect
1 Trinket Mage
1 Crypt Rats
1 Palladium Myr
1 Metalworker
1 Apprentice Wizard
1 Jace's Archivist
1 Notion Thief
1 Necrotic Ooze
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Arcum Dagsson
1 Crackdown Construct
1 Mirror-Mad Phantasm
1 Walking Ballista
1 Hangarback Walker
1 Training Grounds
1 Artificer's Intuition
1 Search for Azcanta
1 Rhystic Study
Instants and Sorcery
1 Stifle
1 Entomb
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Arcane Denial
1 Swan Song
1 Mana Drain
1 Tolarian Winds
1 Windfall
1 Intuition
1 Buried Alive
1 Frantic Search
1 Force of Will
1 Cyclonic Rift
Artifacts
1 Mox Opal
1 Chrome Mox
1 Mox Diamond
1 Mox Amber
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Skullclamp
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Universal Solvent
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Citanul Flute
Lands (30)
1 Command Tower
1 Mana Confluence
1 Underground Sea
1 Watery Grave
1 Morphic Pool
1 Sunken Ruins
1 Underground River
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Fetid Pools
1 Sunken Hollow
4 Island
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
1 Seat of the Synod
2 Swamp
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
1 Vault of Whispers
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Inkmoth Nexus
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Verdant Catacombs
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
I fully endorse Artificer's Intuition. It is a great card that does very heavy lifting if you are using artifacts.
For your build I would suggest Nether Traitor and Meekstone. The traitor is another very good unblockable creature that offers some self reanimation and the ability to give Lazav haste later in the game. Meekstone can be searched with Artificer's Intuition and is pretty effective at slowing down any battle cruiser creatures your opponents may have.
I don't know if it is good enough for your liking, but Thran Turbine with your curve and being Artificer's Intuition tutorable could be a worthy include. You have 28 (including Ornithopter :P) creatures he could transform into for free with this. It's no Training Grounds, but it's something.
As said in the brewing thread, i think Cephalid Inkshrouder, Crypt Rats Dimir Infiltrator and Disciple of Deceit could be stellar in this type of deck. I wonder why you aren't playing Tolarian Winds, as it can wheel you on the cheap at instant speed.
More a general question, but is Phyrexian Arena really worth it? My meta is a lot less competitive, and even i feel it is too slow.
Nether Traitor is a good one, the haste is a relevant feature. It's good to be able to potentially have one of each creature ability to pull from if need be.
You should post you list sometime.
Added
+ Nether Traitor
Removed
- Siren Stormtamer
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
I actually played Dimir Infiltrator and Disciple of Deceit in my first build and I found them a little slow. The Dimir Infiltrator is still pretty deece, but I found myself if transmutting it going for Demonic Tutor. How is this bad? Well it's not but it ends up being like a 5 mana tutor. In which case maybe just casting Final Parting is better? This isn't entirely true, as it can just go to your graveyard naturally through mill, etc, to get the unblockable ability.
I did find the Disciple of Deceit was a bit slower than I was hoping. Of course I had designs of changing Lazav into Disciple of Deceit just before my turn to get a tutoring effect going on. But a few things do need to line up. As I was pointing out in the original post trying to get value from from creatures is actually mana intensive. If you're having to make Lazav unblockable to get him tapped and spending mana to make him Disciple of Deceit then it's actually a lot of mana to spend, and is a slow way to search for cards, that are still conditional on the converted-mana-cost in your hand.
Thran Turbine is an interesting one. It could be good, but can't quite wrap my head around how often it'll be good.
Phyrexian Arena is a slow one, I should probably just play Windfall instead.
Tolarian Winds is something that I should look at, pretty close to Frantic Search. The instant speed is quite good I'd imagine as you can setup before your turn to get the surprise on opponents.
Added
+ Windfall
+ Tolarian Winds
Remove
- Phyrexian Arena
- Hangarback Walker
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
It's clearly better than Heartstone, does more but is less flexible than Training Grounds.
In the end it all comes down on curve and the number of swaps one has planned. In my case and deck it allows me to swap to 11/32 creatures for free and reduce another 13/21 to 1.
There's another thread of someone who plans on using Lazav, the Multifarious like a toolbox, my deck will only include 3 activated abilities, that could be paid by it so that's no option. But hey, i think Mairsil, the Pretender would be the better pick for that route anyhow.
May i ask about your maybeboard creaturewise? I never mind to get inspired.
As far as creatures that I'd like to try, I mean I have played a bunch already that I've cut. That's not to say they don't work well with Lazav, but I've just settled on a very low mana curve.
But these are cards that I think could be good;
Deadeye Tracker - Cheap creature to copy, and actually the +1/+1 counters you might get from explore is relevant in my deck. But I've been careful to point out that spending your time on value plays like this tends to be a luxury, rather than a full on game plan.
Bontu the Glorified - This is probably the one I want to most play the most. Being able to attack/block with Lazav as another creature, can mitigate the attack/block clause of Bontu (and other Amonket Gods). The indestructible part is the ability that is great with Lazav. Sometimes sacrificing a creature can be wanted. I've cast a Pili-Pala before with no way of getting it into my graveyard in a hasty manner for a combo.
Cephalid Inkshrouder - You've already pointed this card out, and it's got a lot of what you want. The greedy part for me is that it's 3 mana and not 2 mana like a lot of the others. I should realistically play this over something like Arcbound Ravager from a competitive stand point, but I'm stubborn when it comes to themes.
Cavern Harpy - The reason I havent played it, is that you do end up wanting to potentially just cast your creatures, probably with the intent of just getting them killed via blocking or whatever. The thing with a card like this is that it does have a clause, so maybe it does just get stuck in your hand.
Erebos, God of the Dead - I really like the industrucble creatures, but I'm thinking I'll probably never use the 1B draw ability, and the Gods that stop being a creature are not as good as the other imo for the reason I was pointing out with Bontu. 4 mana is also a lot.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Deadeye Tracker is one of those corner cases... I like that he's cheap and his ability is solid, but his tap ability isn't strong enough for me to potentially tap down Lazav, the Multifarious. In fact only Jace's Archivist generates enough value that he's allowed to tap my commander.
I really like the explore mechanic though and thought of including it here and in my Alesha, Who Smiles at Death deck. As you don't want that as an ETB effect the only alternative to Deadeye Tracker is Tomb Robber. I think he scales better in the late game, but both of them are outclassed by Stinkweed Imp.
I don't like Cavern Harpy too much, because i don't want to recast my commander, i want him to stick around. Hibernation Sliver would be a different variant without a clause, yet i'd always prefer indestructible (Darksteel Myr, Bontu the Glorified, Kefnet the Mindful, Yahenni, Undying Partisan), regenerate (Will-o'-the-Wisp, Nightscape Familiar, Mischievous Poltergeist), undying (Butcher Ghoul, Stormbound Geist), hexproof (Invisible Stalker, Slippery Scoundrel) and shroud (Cephalid Inkshrouder) over self-bounce.
I like the Will-o'-the-Wisp. I think this looks to be a solid evasion+protection creature. I think I might just have to replace the Vault Skirge with it as life gain isn't really that great, even if it is part of the robots theme.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
I mean, Maralen of Mornsong is set to go in my deck anyways, i'm not so sure about Kami of Crecent Moon, as he's more or less a Radical Idea without the jump start if you transform Lazav, the Multifarious again after the additional draw.
1 Lazav, the Multifarious
Creature
1 Nether Traitor
1 Dreamscape Artist
1 Grand Architect
1 Invisible Stalker
1 Mindshrieker
1 Tetsuko Umezawa, Fugitive
1 Sai, Master Thopterist
1 Jace's Archivist
1 Syndicate Trafficker
1 Nimble Obstructionist
1 Necrotic Ooze
1 Phyrexian Obliterator
1 Deceiver of Form
Enchantment
1 Unfulfilled Desires
1 Artificer's Intuition
1 Training Grounds
Land
1 Bad River
1 Rootwater Depths
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Waterveil Cavern
1 Watery Grave
1 Sunken Ruins
1 Command Tower
1 Buried Ruin
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Academy Ruins
1 Temple of Deceit
1 Esper Panorama
4 Island
3 Swamp
1 Polluted Delta
1 Sunken Hollow
1 Wasteland
1 Geier Reach Sanitarium
1 Inventors' Fair
1 Fetid Pools
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Dimir Aqueduct
1 Darkwater Catacombs
1 Underground River
1 Grixis Panorama
1 Tolaria West
1 Morphic Pool
1 Meekstone
1 Lotus Petal
1 Talisman of Dominance
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Lantern of Insight
1 Salvaging Station
1 Chromatic Star
1 Torpor Orb
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Codex Shredder
1 Executioner's Capsule
1 Lotus Bloom
1 Trading Post
1 Sol Ring
1 Expedition Map
1 Terrarion
1 Dimir Signet
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Damping Sphere
1 Mox Amber
1 Ornithopter
1 Arcbound Ravager
1 Hangarback Walker
1 Mindless Automaton
1 Walking Ballista
1 Phyrexian Devourer
1 Pili-Pala
1 Puppet Conjurer
1 Skill Borrower
1 Vector Asp
1 Hex Parasite
1 Myr Retriever
1 Silent Arbiter
1 Crystalline Crawler
1 Etherium Sculptor
1 Crackdown Construct
1 Phyrexian Dreadnought
1 Counterspell
1 Insidious Dreams
1 Stifle
1 Echoing Truth
1 Trickbind
1 Entomb
1 Negate
1 Ancient Excavation
1 Disallow
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Pact of Negation
Sorcery
1 Buried Alive
1 Final Parting
I am pursuing a lantern control style dream. The idea is to use Lantern of Insight or Wizened Snitches to grant me knowledge of my opponents upcoming draw, then I can use Codex Shredder or preferably Mindshrieker to sculpt their draws. Phyrexian Devourer is both a combo piece and a way to sculpt my draws for the better.
Now that I have finally taken the time to type this up, it looks like I am using far less artifacts than I though I was. I may have to give this list another revision. either remove the heavy artifact support, or double down and add more artifact combo pieces. I was thinking about a Salvaging Station package and Sai, Master Thopterist but that may be another entirely different deck.I could help changing the list while I was posting it. I think I figured out how to include the above.I am running very few unblockable creatures. Instead most of them are utility creatures with either 1 power or 1 toughness that I can make unblockable with Tetsuko Umezawa, Fugitive.
I also really wanted to add Wormfang Manta so I could combo it with Deceiver of Form, but I just can't justify the space. Phyrexian Obliterator and Phyrexian Dreadnought are both sufficient.
What do you think about more Surveil and Surveil matters cards in a slightly more casual build of the deck, i.e. Enhanced Surveillance, Nightveil Sprite, Disinformation Campaign? If you surveil even just twice, the extra 4 cards you get to see with Enhanced Surveillance can help you dig into your deck to set up combos, any more cards than that and its overperforming. You can always loot it away if you draw it late (since the real strength is playing this turn 2 and then playing Lasav, it just seems very consistently strong when played early), plus the shuffle effect can help you protect your combo pieces from graveyard hate so you can tutor them up again later. The Sprite is similar to the loot creatures and is an additional source of evasion for Lasav, but surveiling is quite a bit worse than looting, though its very strong with the other cards listed I here. Campaign, along with some other card advantage/filter surveil cards I might run like Notion Rain and Discovery // Dispersal, seems like a good source of sustain in a deck that will most likely combo off slower than your build and thus will need some amount of sustain to keep going past my opponent's interaction and threats, but maybe its still too slow even for that.
This far I don't think there are too many worthwhile Surveil cards. Nightveil Sprite comes with evasion and surveils pre combat damage, which is a lot better than looting with tiny combat damage. Overall enough value for me to run it.
The only other possible include would be Notion Rain, though for that mana you can get better (pseudo) wheels. It will serve as a filler card until other orders arrived, but isn't set to stay in the deck.
A slow, yet decent alternative option would be Monastery Siege, because both modes are pretty good.
Would be great to see more Surveil support in the block though, because I really like the mechanic.
As far as surveil goes, there isn't a lot of cards that impress me for commander multiplayer too be honest. I did actually play Doom Whisperer in my first build, and i'ts always going to be a fine card, but didn't fit my low mana curve in the end.
The best way of describing surveil is it is still nickle and diming your way to get your graveyard as a resource, but there are just much more broken ways of doing this in an eternal format.
I could see Nightveil Sprite being alright, but I will point out that a card like Merfolk Looter is straight up better. You actually get to draw the card, so you can keep it and discard another potentially, or discard it straight away with a Merfolk Looter. Where as surveil is only being able to put into graveyard. Merfolk Looter doesn't need to attack either.
Surveil is a nice ability, but as I say in a format that packs a lot of powerful draw cards, I feel it struggles a bit to compete.
I do rate Price of Fame highly however, and it probably correct for me to run at least one creature removal card, and I think I'd pick this one for the deck, for it's ability to pick off commanders for 1B and you get the surveil 2.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Yeah I was planning on playing Price as well, when I was looking to take this deck and add my own pet cards/meta calls the lack of removal really jumped out to me. My more casual build would probably run that + Sinister Sabotage over Force of Will as a budget+thematic alternative. The other clunky cards I mentioned probably aren't worth it though, but I'm gonna try Enhanced Surveillance to see if supercharging Lasav is enough to make it worth it.
I feel like Enhanced Surveillance has a lot of potential if you're running Surveil already. But my real draw to it is a protection card against Bojuka Bogs and the like.
If you want an effect that can protect you graveyard, Elixir of Immortality is probably best.
However I have been graveyard hated out of my win conditions before, and Elixir of Immortality does require that you hold up 2, which you'll have to trust me is super hard in a deck like Lazav. I honestly think that you're going to caught out trying to use Elixir.
But that's why it's actually nice to have several different win condition packages, and if you play well, try and not fill your graveyard with various pieces from each set.
Sometimes it pays to keep them in hand, even if the opportunity to discard them arises. For example there really are 4 main win conditions;
1) Phyrexian Dreadnought + Vector Asp.
2) Necrotic Ooze + Pili-Pala + creatures that tap for 2 or more mana.
3) Jace's Archivist + Notion Thief.
4) Crackdown Construct + any zero costing creature in graveyard + evasion creature in graveyard.
Try and just setup your graveyard for one of them if possible. Meaning that you have more win conditions that you can setup for in the face of graveyard hate.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
What are your thoughts on masticore for this deck?
This will be particular good with Training Grounds and/or Heartstone.
Phyrexian Vatmother
Razormane Masticore, Masticore, Molten-Tail Masticore
Serendib Djinn
Magus of the Abyss
Cumulative upkeeps can be avoided;
Survivor of the Unseen
Phyrexian Soulgorger
Vexing Sphinx - this card is just good for getting some creatures into graveyard off its ability anyway.
Flow of Maggots
You can in fact use Cumulative upkeeps with "age counters" as transferable resource.
So for example if you've used Flow of Maggots for it's evasion and you've also kept it's upkeep cost for say 3 turns and have 3 age counters on Lazav.
Then later on in the game this can be used with say Herald of Leshrac or Vexing Sphinx to get the bonuses.
These one you want to turn into the creature before your turn;
Braids, Conjurer Adept
Seizan, Perverter of Truth
Maralen of the Mornsong
Kami of the Crescent Moon
More +1/+1 counters;
Vebulid - will need a +1/+1 counter from another source first
Necroplasm - can change before end of turn once has the 3 +1/+1 counters. Good thing is that you can change it during the game if needing to remove creatures, and use other +1/+1 to get it past the natural 3 counters.
Khabál Ghoul
Chronozoa - Lazav will not have any counters, so you'll get the split straight away. Unfortunately needs to "die", so you want backup graveyard removal or reanimation, otherwise he'll remain there.
Forgotten Creation - fueling graveyard
The problem is that you'd be spending 4 mana turning him into Masticore each turn, even if you have Ornithopter to turn him into before your upkeep, that is just so mana intensive. Even with Training Grounds in play it'll be unplayable.
You'll just never have the mana to actually use the Masticore abilities as well.
I've had another look through your deck and there are some really sweet stuff in there. I think I'm going to play Sai, Master Thopterist. Seems like a good way to get extra value.
I noticed you play all the Stifle effects, Nimble Obstructionist, Stifle, Trickbind. Must be pretty scared of Bojuka Bog, and rightfully so. I think I should play at least Stifle, so that I have some long term answer for it.
How has Unfulfilled Desires been? Looks like a pretty strong card in general and I'm certainly thinking of trying it. Basically all the creatures are disposable from your hand, so for me that's about 1/3 of the deck.
For your deck there is possible Zur's Weirding for your Lantern theme.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
I have picked up a reputation among my LGS as the dedicated graveyard player, as I have yet to build a deck that does not use it in some capacity. That means everyone holds onto their grave hate just for me. Those spells also help with Planeswalker ultimates and Eldrazi cast triggers, which can always ruin your day.
I have extensive experience with this card thanks to the various incarnations of my Grimgrin, Corpse-Born deck. In that deck I has lost track of the times I have used it to dig for an answer or a win condition. I have also lost track of the number of times doing so has nearly killed me! It will keep the game interesting at least. If you are durdling and finding nothing, it is over quick.
I like that. It allows the group to get in the action too. Unfortunately I have had to drop the lantern focus from my build. It is a strategy that still think could work but it is divergent from artifact centered build. Trying to do both causes a loss in synergy. I may put together a list that focus on Lantern control, but for now I have doubled down on artifacts.
This is my updated list. I used yours as template. One major change I had to make was the mana base. I can't afford most MOX cards, so I'll have to see if I can still make 30 land work.
1 Lazav, the Multifarious
Artifact Creatures
1 Ornithopter
1 Phyrexian Dreadnought
1 Vector Asp
1 Hex Parasite
1 Arcbound Ravager
1 Etherium Sculptor
1 Millikin
1 Leaden Myr
1 Silver Myr
1 Pili-Pala
1 Salvage Slasher
1 Etched Champion
1 Silas Renn, Seeker Adept
1 Skill Borrower
1 Palladium Myr
1 Silent Arbiter
1 Walking Ballista
1 Phyrexian Devourer
Creatures
1 Tetsuko Umezawa, Fugitive
1 Contraband Kingpin
1 Nether Traitor
1 Riddlesmith
1 Thassa, God of the Sea
1 Jace's Archivist
1 Grand Architect
1 Sai, Master Thopterist
1 Necrotic Ooze
1 Notion Thief
1 Arcum Dagsson
1 Magus of the Future
1 Training Grounds
1 Artificer's Intuition
1 Unfulfilled Desires
1 As Foretold
Instants and Sorcery
1 Entomb
1 Reanimate
1 Trickbind
1 Disallow
1 Reshape
1 Echoing Truth
1 Stifle
1 Windfall
1 Whispering Madness
1 Buried Alive
1 Pact of Negation
1 Cyclonic Rift
Artifacts
1 Lotus Bloom
1 Mox Amber
1 Paradise Mantle
1 Sol Ring
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Universal Solvent
1 Library of Leng
1 Lantern of Insight
1 Meekstone
1 Codex Shredder
1 Thran Foundry
1 Chromatic Star
1 Terrarion
1 Key to the City
1 Talisman of Dominance
1 Dimir signet
1 Anvil of Bogardan
1 Torpor Orb
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Trading Post
1 Salvaging Station
1 Maze of Ith
1 Command Tower
1 Watery Grave
1 Morphic Pool
1 Sunken Ruins
1 Underground River
1 Darkwater Catacombs
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Fetid Pools
1 Sunken Hollow
4 Island
1 Seat of the Synod
3 Swamp
1 Academy Ruins
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Polluted Delta
1 Rocky Tar Pit
1 Bad River
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Vault of Whispers
1 Geier Reach Sanitarium
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Inventors' Fair
1 Tolaria West
1 Buried Ruin
1 Wasteland
I managed to finally pick up a Sensei's Divining Top in a trade. Once I did, I took you suggestion and added Magus of the Future. I am not looking back from that decision. I have dropped the Deceiver of Form plan due to complexity, but the ability to play my top deck sounds great. I also look forward to my first Magus of the Future + Sensei's Divining Top + Etherium Sculptor combo.
I added a couple of things that may interest you:
Library of Leng - We are both running enough cards with discarding as a part of the effect that I figured this might come in handy. I hate loosing my Cyclonic Rift because I had a handful of things that needed to be in the grave. A note to others: This does work with cards where discarding is part of the cost like Artificer's Intuition
Salvage Slasher - This is my back up Phyrexian Dreadnought. I know they don't seem similar, but their function within the deck is very close. In both cases it is preferable to make Lazav a copy after he has gone unblocked. Phyrexian Dreadnought is strictly better because his size is unconditional and he costs less to copy, Salvage Slasher will scale later in the game as your graveyard fills. He also isn't as recognizable as Phyrexian Dreadnought, slowing the hate he will receive in graveyard.
Noteworthy is that I have omitted Crackdown Construct from the list. I feel like he and Phyrexian Devourer were fighting for the same slot. Crackdown Construct gets bigger overall, but after Lazav becomes a 21/21 his size is not relevant anymore. In terms of a hard cast, Phyrexian Devourer does cost more, but I still prefer him for aid in top deck control and his ability to combo with other cards in the deck.
I do like the Salvage Slasher in your list. I'm just not quite artifact heavy enough to get value out of it. There is Phyrexian Soulgorger as an "alternative" to Phyrexian Devourer as well. Believe it or not, there are even situation where you want to use the sacrifice ability to get a creature into the graveyard. There are often times you'll draw a Pili-Pala, Vector Asp, etc and want it in your graveyard, for a combo. I normally play them out if I don't have discard, hoping to just block and kill them, or run into a board wipe
But Phyrexian Soulgorger does give you access to guaranteeing this.
I do think you should run a few more counterspells. I mean if you're worried about graveyard hate, then you should also be worried about artifact mass removal, or hate.
A Vandalblast, Austere Command, Stony Silence, is going to ruin you. So I lean on a few counterspells to react to these types of spells.
I would add Arcane Denial and Swan Song.
I've been very impressed with the Crackdown Construct. Thanks to @Stapler for that suggestion. The great thing about it is that you can pull it off with just putting Crackdown Construct into play. So you don't need Lazav to be a copy of it. I kind of didn't think of this at first. So you don't need to set it up into your graveyard, which a lot of the other combos lean on. You obviously want to catch opponents of a blocker, or have something like Thassa, God of the Sea to make it unblockable, but I have won off just killing an opponent off guard with cracking in (pun intended) with the Crackdown Construct itself.
If you're playing inexperience players, then you can do this after blockers, so they might not even know that you can do it. Sort of looks like a harmless 2/2 coming in.
You still need a zero cost creature in your graveyard, but I have 3 of these.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
I have Reshape, Trading Post, and Arcum Dagsson that are also solutions to that problem. I do like the interaction Phyrexian Soulgorger has with Hex Parasite. 1B is not a bad tax to keep an 8/8 trampler around for a turn or 2 in the early game. I just wish I hadn't sold my copy of that card in a big pile 2 months ago for some fetch lands. After I trying out both The Mimeoplasm and Varolz, the Scar-Striped and disliking them, I figured I would not need it again. The only reason I kept Phyrexian Dreadnought is that I thought it would be better to keep as a trader.
I don't see those specific cards very often, but that is a meta thing could change. I do sometimes see a Merciless Eviction and many opposing Cyclonic Rifts.
Anvil of Bogardan and Unfulfilled Desires removed, Forbid and Memory Lapse added. Those are the best choices I have in my binder at the moment. I was thinking windfall instead of Unfulfilled Desires, but I have Notion Thief and I want to trigger him reliably. Anvil of Bogardan needs to stay in another deck that cares about max hand size.
One of my first thoughts was to cut Contraband Kingpin. He was mostly a falvour choice that seemed to fit. I think I'll swap him with either Lore Broker or Dreamscape Artist.
Arcum Dagsson looks incredible in your build. I don't have that many non-creature artifacts that are too worthwhile to search for. Skullclamp would be nice to grab, but I would need to play some more utility artifacts to truly warrant a slot.
But I do have 16 artifact creatures, so I think this is enough if I did decide to run him. I think if I did, then I might seriously look at Citanul Flute. That way you can sacrifice an artifact creature to put it into play, then you can easily search for another cheap artifact creature. Keep looping this. Hmm, I like this.
I dearly wanted to get Silas Renn, Seeker Adept being a superstar in my original deck, but in the end even though he has deathtouch, I found it impossible to attack into an opponent without him simply being killed.
So I think having some card dedicated to making him and of course Lazav as well unblockable will help.
You do have Key to the City and Thassa, God of the Sea, but you could look for more options.
Further options I think are playable are;
Mask of Riddles, Minamo Sightbender, Whirler Rogue, Whispersilk Cloak, Zhuge Jin, Wu Strategist, Zombie Trailblazer.
I'd personally take out Tetsuko Umezawa, Fugitive for one of these. He is a bit limited on your unblockable options compared to these others.
Shizo, Death's Storehouse is really good in Lazav deck in general. It is a $12 card, but look to get one of these in your future.
I also think that running a few more draw cards that you can get from artifacts going to graveyard will help.
I was specifically running Mishra's Bauble and Urza's Bauble for exactly that, but end up cutting them when I took out Silas Renn, Seeker Adept.
Other options are Chromatic Sphere, Nihil Spellbomb, Phyrexian Furnace, Scrabbling Claws, Wayfarer's Bauble.
Expedition Map is also excellent, and if you get Shizo, Death's Storehouse then you can use it to get this, and then use Silas Renn, Seeker Adept to get the Expedition Map back and keep cycling each turn to get a land drop of your choice each turn.
As far as cuts, I not convinced on Lotus Bloom. It's not the sort of deck that's looking to exploded once you hit a certain mana threshold. You can't cast it from graveyard (Silas Renn, Seeker Adept).
Also not sure about As Foretold in your deck. I prefer decks that have a lot of instants, as then you can use it in opponents turns to get much more value from it. Otherwise it's kind of slow and only really providing mana in your turn. It's not terrible, but also not the best. You might literally be better off playing something like Thran Dynamo or Gilded Lotus, as at least you can search for it with Arcum Dagsson. Plus that mana can be used to activate Lazav.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith