So, and maybe I'm missing something obvious, but what exactly is the win condition in this deck?
Most of the time it's via Words of Wind making opponents pick up all their permanents, including lands. So you just lock them out and can finish them off with a few creatures, as they can't get out of it.
You don't even need infinite for this just a big mana and draw for a turn or two.
The other way is making all your enchantments creatures via Starfield of Nyx.
I've used Shalai, Voice of Plenty not only with infinite mana, but actually just with large amounts of mana to build up quite a formidable force with the +1/+1 counters.
Basically the deck just has inevitability once you are setup with draw and lock pieces.
So in the original post you say that Doubling Season et al can create auras on multiple permanents when in fact those cards do not do that. The way Estrid's ability is worded, when the token is created it is already targeting a single permanent. Any extra tokens created by the Doubling Season effects are still created targeting the same permanent. I didn't see this corrected anywhere else in the comments and just wanted to let you guys know. I still run the trio in my Estrid as mine is mostly token based, but if you're using them just to get extra Aura tokens from Estrid, they don't actually do what you're wanting them to.
So in the original post you say that Doubling Season et al can create auras on multiple permanents when in fact those cards do not do that. The way Estrid's ability is worded, when the token is created it is already targeting a single permanent. Any extra tokens created by the Doubling Season effects are still created targeting the same permanent. I didn't see this corrected anywhere else in the comments and just wanted to let you guys know. I still run the trio in my Estrid as mine is mostly token based, but if you're using them just to get extra Aura tokens from Estrid, they don't actually do what you're wanting them to.
OK, that makes sense now that I read it properly. You can still use Doubling Season for ultimate Estrid more easily and any other planeswalkers you might run.
Very silly thing I came across looking for something else that I did not know existed.
Enchantment Retract! Which would basically turn this deck into Cheerios.
Here is what the cards says these days:
Oracle Text: Return to your hand all enchantments you both own and control, all Auras you own attached to permanents you control, and all Auras you own attached to attacking creatures your opponents control. Then destroy all other enchantments you control, all other Auras attached to permanents you control, and all other Auras attached to attacking creatures your opponents control.
Very silly thing I came across looking for something else that I did not know existed.
Enchantment Retract! Which would basically turn this deck into Cheerios.
Here is what the cards says these days:
Oracle Text: Return to your hand all enchantments you both own and control, all Auras you own attached to permanents you control, and all Auras you own attached to attacking creatures your opponents control. Then destroy all other enchantments you control, all other Auras attached to permanents you control, and all other Auras attached to attacking creatures your opponents control.
I been playing since Legends and remember re-reading it like a hundred times, and thinking "I don't know what this card does, no idea.".
So the oracle text has made it a little clearer, although I'm still confused at how situational the last part actually is, after you return your enchantments.
Then destroy all other enchantments you control, all other Auras attached to permanents you control,
Enchantments that would get returned are enchantments that you control but don't own, so if a Zedruu the Greathearted player gave you an enchantment, say Illusions of Grandeur, then you could use this to "destroy" it. Oh man, the number of times this comes up and I just so happen to have a Remove Enchantments Boom got the answer.
But this card is an interesting way to save a bunch of your enchantment in the face of removal -OR- you could try and generate more mana and draw with certain setups. With a few enchantresses and enchant lands that essentially pay for themselves.
I guess there is a little bit of insurance against people who might steal one of your creatures that you've put a bunch on auras onto. Oh boy this card puts some very situational text onto the card, just to make sure to confused the heck out of us.
It destroys things in the extreme corner cases everything else is returned.
If you for example gained control of something an Opponent owned it would not return it and instead destroy it. But for the purposes here it would just put everything back to hand for recasting for profit, like using Retract in the right situations with artifacts.
I guess they just had to word it really wildly because Aura's operate much different than artifacts or just enchantments ever would.
I love my Estrid deck, and I wanted to mention Attunement. It does a TON of work for me.
Yeah, this card actually looks amazing in my deck. Not only can it setup Estrids [-7], but I can also use it with Life from the Loam, just discarding lands that I grabbed with the Loam. I can literally do this every turn if needing the massive draw. It just represents an incredible way to filter through the deck, even without the entrantresses in play, which is huge thing to be able to have redundancy and a secondary game plan if your draw creatures are removed.
Will definitely have to add it. Trying to find a cut was the hard part. I've decided on Shalai, Voice of Plenty, even though it has been good and does represent a potential win condition once you have infinite. I just find that once have the game locked down (literally) once I have infinite anyway, just playing out Stasis or Static Orb and crushing people souls, which always has inevitability. Creatures are a little weaker to removal than enchantments, so will often be a focus of spot removal.
With Doubling Season being able to get them to ultimate range straight away, they represent pretty lethal clocks. Garruk Wildspeaker [-4] isn't amazing, but if you did have a token army then it can represent lethal. But he is still mainly in the deck for the ability to generate lots of mana for you over the course of the game with his untap lands ability and then your own enchant lands producing more mana.
With Doubling Season and Garruk, Primal Hunter you could [-6] straight away and say you have 6 lands in play, that would be 12 x 6/6 Wurms. Your opponents would need an answer to these immediately or face lethal attacks from 72 worth of power.
Also even though your deck doesn't have creatures with natural big "power" for the [-3] draw cards, you can always make a 3/3 Beast with his [+1] and then draw 3 from this token next turn, if needing the draw.
Cards that you could consider cutting are Avacyn, Angel of Hope. Even though it's a great card, the 8 mana can often mean it's the only card you cast for a turn. You can think of Elspeth, Knight-Errant as the replacement card in this slot for getting indestructible permanents, even though you have to work harder to get the emblem.
Heliod, God of the Sun looks like one of the weaker cards. Spending the 4 mana to produce tokens, is unlikely to be a winning game plan for such a mana hungry deck. The 5/6 indestructible is pretty nice for defending Estrid, but you can't always guarantee you'll have 5 white devotion, the deck is pretty spread through the other colors for color symbols on-board.
Yeah I decided pretty early that I wanted it to be a primal surge deck, so I’ve trimmed as many non permanents as possible and it has paid off well. Even if I cast it early and don’t get but a few things it just sets me up so well to endure into the long game.
I did have an orrery/leyline/refuge and Seedborn package in, which lead to a want for things like Heliod to dump all of that mana into, but I’ve since taken out that package to put into another deck and to lessen the power of this one.
Those walkers all are great, and I’ve looked at them on and off some, but there are already a couple people with Atraxa decks in my group and a lot of love for many different walkers so I use fewer of them generally just to go against the grain a bit.
I know the deck could be way better by upgrading the mana base, but I’ve kept it as simple as possible to try to keep the deck a little less powerful on purpose. My playgroup is almost excruciatingly casual, so dumbing down the mana base is an easy way to dumb down the deck without just putting bad cards in.
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[EDH Non-Primers] Newzuri | Breya
You don't even need infinite for this just a big mana and draw for a turn or two.
The other way is making all your enchantments creatures via Starfield of Nyx.
I've used Shalai, Voice of Plenty not only with infinite mana, but actually just with large amounts of mana to build up quite a formidable force with the +1/+1 counters.
Basically the deck just has inevitability once you are setup with draw and lock pieces.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Post your list sometime if you get time.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Enchantment Retract! Which would basically turn this deck into Cheerios.
Here is what the cards says these days:
So the oracle text has made it a little clearer, although I'm still confused at how situational the last part actually is, after you return your enchantments.
Enchantments that would get returned are enchantments that you control but don't own, so if a Zedruu the Greathearted player gave you an enchantment, say Illusions of Grandeur, then you could use this to "destroy" it. Oh man, the number of times this comes up and I just so happen to have a Remove Enchantments
But this card is an interesting way to save a bunch of your enchantment in the face of removal -OR- you could try and generate more mana and draw with certain setups. With a few enchantresses and enchant lands that essentially pay for themselves.
I guess there is a little bit of insurance against people who might steal one of your creatures that you've put a bunch on auras onto. Oh boy this card puts some very situational text onto the card, just to make sure to confused the heck out of us.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
If you for example gained control of something an Opponent owned it would not return it and instead destroy it. But for the purposes here it would just put everything back to hand for recasting for profit, like using Retract in the right situations with artifacts.
I guess they just had to word it really wildly because Aura's operate much different than artifacts or just enchantments ever would.
Will definitely have to add it. Trying to find a cut was the hard part. I've decided on Shalai, Voice of Plenty, even though it has been good and does represent a potential win condition once you have infinite. I just find that once have the game locked down (literally) once I have infinite anyway, just playing out Stasis or Static Orb and crushing people souls, which always has inevitability. Creatures are a little weaker to removal than enchantments, so will often be a focus of spot removal.
Added
+ Attunement
Removed
- Shalai, Voice of Plenty
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Link to deck @ TappedOut.net
1 Estrid, the Masked
Artifacts:
1 Torpor Orb
Planeswalkers:
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Instants:
1 Cyclonic Rift
Sorceries:
1 Primal Surge
1 Replenish
1 Supreme Verdict
Creatures:
1 Ajani's Chosen
1 Argothian Enchantress
1 Avacyn, Angel of Hope
1 Dawntreader Elk
1 Eidolon of Blossoms
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Heliod, God of the Sun
1 Mesa Enchantress
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Satyr Enchanter
1 Sun Titan
1 Tuvasa the Sunlit
1 Verduran Enchantress
Enchantments:
1 Anointed Procession
1 Aura of Silence
1 Awakening Zone
1 Carpet of Flowers
1 Copy Enchantment
1 Dawn's Reflection
1 Doubling Season
1 Enchantress's Presence
1 Estrid's Invocation
1 Fable of Wolf and Owl
1 Fertile Ground
1 Font of Fertility
1 Frontier Siege
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Gift of Paradise
1 Grasp of Fate
1 Greater Auramancy
1 Ground Seal
1 Karmic Justice
1 Khalni Heart Expedition
1 Legion's Landing Flip
1 Luminarch Ascension
1 Market Festival
1 New Horizons
1 Overgrowth
1 Parallel Lives
1 Pattern of Rebirth
1 Privileged Position
1 Propaganda
1 Rhystic Study
1 Sandwurm Convergence
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Search for Azcanta
1 Sheltered Aerie
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 Sphere of Safety
1 Squirrel Nest
1 Starfield of Nyx
1 Sterling Grove
1 Stony Silence
1 Sylvan Library
1 Utopia Sprawl
1 Verdant Haven
1 Weirding Wood
1 Wild Growth
1 Bant Panorama
1 Blighted Woodland
1 Bountiful Promenade
1 Breeding Pool
1 Canopy Vista
1 Command Beacon
1 Command Tower
1 Evolving Wilds
7 Forest
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Hinterland Harbor
6 Island
1 Krosan Verge
4 Plains
1 Prairie Stream
1 Scattered Groves
1 Sea of Clouds
1 Sunpetal Grove
1 Temple Garden
1 Terramorphic Expanse
The only cards I can think of that I would like to add are a few token generating planeswalkers;
Elspeth, Knight-Errant, Garruk Wildspeaker, Garruk, Primal Hunter.
The reason is that with Doubling Season and even Parallel Lives and Anointed Procession they are very potent cards, and they will make these 3 enchantments more valuable in your deck as well.
With Doubling Season being able to get them to ultimate range straight away, they represent pretty lethal clocks.
Garruk Wildspeaker [-4] isn't amazing, but if you did have a token army then it can represent lethal. But he is still mainly in the deck for the ability to generate lots of mana for you over the course of the game with his untap lands ability and then your own enchant lands producing more mana.
Elspeth, Knight-Errant [-8] emblem is hard to beat, and producing tokens is on theme.
With Doubling Season and Garruk, Primal Hunter you could [-6] straight away and say you have 6 lands in play, that would be 12 x 6/6 Wurms. Your opponents would need an answer to these immediately or face lethal attacks from 72 worth of power.
Also even though your deck doesn't have creatures with natural big "power" for the [-3] draw cards, you can always make a 3/3 Beast with his [+1] and then draw 3 from this token next turn, if needing the draw.
Cards that you could consider cutting are Avacyn, Angel of Hope. Even though it's a great card, the 8 mana can often mean it's the only card you cast for a turn. You can think of Elspeth, Knight-Errant as the replacement card in this slot for getting indestructible permanents, even though you have to work harder to get the emblem.
Heliod, God of the Sun looks like one of the weaker cards. Spending the 4 mana to produce tokens, is unlikely to be a winning game plan for such a mana hungry deck. The 5/6 indestructible is pretty nice for defending Estrid, but you can't always guarantee you'll have 5 white devotion, the deck is pretty spread through the other colors for color symbols on-board.
Maybe Ground Seal as it works against your Starfield of Nyx.
I really like the Primal Surge in your deck, probably will win you most games you cast it successfully with only 4 non-permanents in your list.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
I did have an orrery/leyline/refuge and Seedborn package in, which lead to a want for things like Heliod to dump all of that mana into, but I’ve since taken out that package to put into another deck and to lessen the power of this one.
Those walkers all are great, and I’ve looked at them on and off some, but there are already a couple people with Atraxa decks in my group and a lot of love for many different walkers so I use fewer of them generally just to go against the grain a bit.
I know the deck could be way better by upgrading the mana base, but I’ve kept it as simple as possible to try to keep the deck a little less powerful on purpose. My playgroup is almost excruciatingly casual, so dumbing down the mana base is an easy way to dumb down the deck without just putting bad cards in.