@lumovanis
It seems like you're playing a really high number of anthem effects, ones that effect only toughness of course. Have you found that it's more effective to only have 2-3 Walls in play at only one time? I would also recommend Edric, Spymaster of Trest in your decklist. With a higher focus of getting your Defender creatures into the Red Zone, it seems like the card draw that Edric enables would be useful.
@umtiger and @darrenhabib
I still haven't been sold off of Wall of Redemption completely. I'm going to try out a few more games with it and then test out Brago. Brago has a pretty notorious reputation in my group, so he often dies pretty quickly before I get the chance to swing with him when I'm playing him. I'll keep testing the Redemption Wall.
@lumovanis
It seems like you're playing a really high number of anthem effects, ones that effect only toughness of course. Have you found that it's more effective to only have 2-3 Walls in play at only one time? I would also recommend Edric, Spymaster of Trest in your decklist. With a higher focus of getting your Defender creatures into the Red Zone, it seems like the card draw that Edric enables would be useful.
I don't really want to be running Edric, I'm already not a target and the card draw, while nice there sometimes, isn't gong to be as great because I'm not going as wide as other aggro decks.
The only problem is that they are all "tried-and-true"
Yes, but aren't they still being done off walls?
That is indeed true. While I'm sure Pink Floyd is also upset that I missed an opportunity to name the thread after their titular "The Wall" album, I thought that Wall-Ball would more accurately convey the strategy of the deck while still piquing interest in the thread itself.
I made a small change to the deck and added in Pact of Negation in place of Jungle Barrier. The 4 CMC isn't a terrible issue, but the Pact has a lot more application to the deck strategy.
I'm currently working on a hybrid Stax-Aggro deck that takes advantage of the second of Arcades' abilities. The general idea of the deck is that you slow the game down with the plethora of Stax effects in GWU and turn your Defender creatures sidways while generating card advantage via Arcades' draw trigger. I'll post a list once I've got the right framework put together.
A card has come up as a candidate for cutting. In both goldfishes and in live games, Gyre Sage has been in awkward spot where I can't get a T3 Arcades off of it immediately following my casting the Gyre Sage on T2. While her evolve ability is pretty cool, and can scale into super mana production during a combo turn, she doesn't help the deck get off the ground by getting Arcades into play on time.
I'm debating about adding another tutor effect or if there should be a mana dork to replace the Sage. 14 mana sources plus the cost reducer of the Familiar seems just fine to me, so I'm leaning towards a tutor or even a removal effect. Any Arcades lurkers with some input on this?
I've also added a couple of more sections to the OP with the goal of hopefully getting this thread into a Primer. I think a couple of other decklists need to be fully explored (Stax and casual-ish straight Aggro) within the OP for it to be considered a complete Primer, but I think it's a good place to start.
Gyre Sage finally got the cut. In actual games, there were two of them where I couldn't cast Arcades on T3 off of the Sage. At this point, it's a hindrance to getting the deck off the ground and isn't a Defender creature.
I've scrapped several decklists for a Stax based Arcades deck. I can't find the right mix of cards to be truly effective since Arcades' primary synergies have 0 integration with the existing Stax pieces. Essentially, any Stax pieces that are added are standalone cards that don't directly help this strategy. It might be better to abandon the idea, but I'll keep tweaking around with the Stax cards available and what would be the most effective Stax package for the deck without diluting its game strategy.
Hey guys,and gals, Ive been having a lot of success with my build. Its not quite degenerate combo, and not quite degenerate stax. But it is in a good place.
Welcome to the forums! I took a look at your list and the political rhetoric is amusing, haha.
I like what you have going there, personally. I think that I'm going to use your list as a framework for a possible Stax-y list and incorporate some more aggressive Stax pieces into the list.
Which cards have been the best to play in practice?
EDIT: I brewed up a quick Stax list. It's got some nice redundancies and is geared to be effective against Storm and Hulk decks. We're hoping to be able to overwhelm any other mana dork based Stax deck with our relatively superior creatures in combat. Otherwise, the core of the deck is still there.
There are still 27 creatures with Defender and the counterspells have been almost cleanly exchanged for the Stax elements that are present in the deck. Sun Titan to recur the Stax pieces as well as the majority of our permanents. Tetsuko Umezawa, Fugitive to make sure that our TarmoWalls can get in for huge chunks of damage. The one card I want to try and find room for is Eternal Witness somehow. I'm thinking that 8 Stax effect should be enough, so I would like to either cut a removal spell or a Stax piece to make room for the Witness. I think going under 27 Defender creatures becomes dangerous, but additional games will verify this.
@Nyassss
Welcome to the forums! I hope you had an enjoyable read through the decklist. The goal is to eventually make this thread a Primer for Arcades. I think he's one of the most odd-ball Commanders and I love having him in my arsenal. Me: "I'll attack you for 24." Opponent: "But those are WALLS. They can't attack!" Me: "Read Arcades' second ability." Opponent: "Block two of them and take the other two for 15..." Hilarious.
In regards to the RemediesDruid that's one of the more powerful combos in Modern, it's a decent combo. The Druid is a mana source for our deck that enables a T3 Arcades like many of the other mana dorks. I also appreciate how compact this combo is in terms of CMC; with proper sequencing you can do it for just 4 mana, which is a great rate as far as infinite combos.
However, I don't think I'd recommend playing this combo in Arcades. The reasons being that the pieces, by themselves, do not have any synergy with the deck whatsoever. I've tried to maximize the efficiency and synergy of each card in the deck so that each card drawn has some sort of impact on our game strategy. The deck is built around the Defender keyword and recycling those Defenders with Arcades (preferably with infinite mana and Temur Sabertooth or Aluren + Cloudstone Curio). Sadly, none of the pieces in the Remedies Druid combo have that important keyword and therefore do not synergize with our Commander. And since none of the pieces do anything to impact the board (especially the Vizier of Remedies), draw cards, offer interaction with our opponents, or otherwise do anything substantial outside of comboing out we elect to pass on this particular combo.
I like where your mind is at, though. Are you just getting into Commander?
Ah, I understand better. If you're looking for a good option to get into Commander for the first time, I recommend checking out the Alternate/Budget Build section on the Original Post (OP, for short). I think that if you combined some of the Stax elements with the cheaper budget options that the Budget list, you'll have a great starting decklist to work off of.
The Commander card pool is vast, but thankfully many of the cards for this particular Commander are super cheap, ranging in the $0.25 to $3.00 range. The Current decklist is my selection of the best ones, but I'll be updating the Budget list with some cards that have tested well that aren't terribly expensive.
In regards to the Ballista, it's a great infinite mana outlet. I think it comes down simply to preference. I selected infinite combos that are either Defender creatures or that are naturally complementary to the decklist as a whole. The primary combo win, where I infinitely loop Beast Within + Reality Shift to deck all of my opponents and leave them with empty boardstates, is compact and all the pieces are relevant to the deck. Doorkeeper is mostly there for the lolz. "Dude, you just died to a Homunculus!" is an expression that I've used a few times. Arcades takes some really weird, dorky Defender creatures and makes them relevant, which is highly amusing to me.
This deck is SUPER budget. Actually, it's almost a Pauper deck. But there's enough synergies and combo pieces that you should still be able to close out games with some good consistency.
Very good, comrade! I hope that the OP was useful to you!
Brawl is definitely an interesting format. I don't like how they basically force you into another money pit with a rotating card pool, but Wizards is a business first.
Which cards have been the best to play in practice?[/quote]
Obviously aluren and curio are amazing and thats the real end game for me if i havent been smashing people to death with 2 mana 5/5's.
The really strong peices are opposition and static orb. The two are fantastic both together and seperate. Ive also been super impressed with reconnasence. It allows you to just attack with everything every turn avoid bad combat math, and tricks. and on top of that the way the card works and the way the turns are segmented. you can untap all your guys after damage, but still in the combat step, giving you vigilance!
also I have got down to a lean 23 defenders. And I havent been having many issues having them when i need them. so I think you can cut down alittle to find room for other things.
My hardest cuts were making enough blue cards to support force of will.
Thanks for sharing! The pseudo Vigilance of Reconnaissance are quite strong with this deck, so I'll want to look into that for sure.
I've played a couple of games since I last posted and the games were pretty fun. I lost both of them, but I still had a grand time. One of the games was against my brother's Elfball deck and the mono-B Tetsuo Umezawa and ALL of Tetsuo's removal spells were pointed at Arcades. By the end of the game, Arcades cost 10GWU. I did swing for some significant points of damage and I couldn't find any combo pieces in either of those games. So, I think it was mostly just bad luck on my part.
I wanted to make an Aluren deck and Arcades seemed like a great plan. Was mostly finished when I came across this primer looking for pieces I might have missed (found out about wall of kelp). I wanted to suggest one land that will add a nice combo to your deck (and mine). Forbidden Orchard is all you need to add. Remove Seaside Citadel since it's really awkward in your high powered mana base. The deck definitely does not need ETB tapped mana fixing.
The combo is: Intruder Alarm+Forbidden Orchard+Wall of Resurgence
Gives Infinite Mana, and has the downside of also giving an opponent infinite creatures. You don't need to go infinite though, and a cyclonic rift can take care of it all. It's a good land for a 3 color deck anyway.
@ThrowbackLegend
First, welcome to the forums! I hope that you find them useful and engaging for your own deck inspiration!
I think that Forbidden Orchard is a good idea! I think that's an easy switch to make and adds another way to combo. I'll simply have to evaluate the decklist to see how readily I can clear the board of an opponent's infinite Spirits, since the combo you mention doesn't actually draw the deck or guarantee a way to deal with the horde of Spirits.
Maybe i'm overthinking this but can you explain combo 7 to me in a different way? I don't see how I can net infinite mana or infinite card draw. I understand the infinite flickers but to get them you have to target the E wit/Mnem wall and the lotus to do it. If you switch a target of off either of those you lose your ability to net enough mana to cast the flicker or you lose the ability to get the flicker back. Unless you have Paradox engine in play already as well (to untap the lotus every time you cast the flicker) I don't see how you net mana.
@Islanzadi38
Great point! You certainly didn't overthink the combo at all... somehow I was, in my mind, able to infinitely flicker 3 Flicker targets instead of the 2. You can still net infinite draw with Arcades in play AND if Mnemonic Wall is the recursion piece. If you have Sunscape Familiar, you can net infinite mana in the same loop (since it reduces the Ghostly Flicker's casting cost by 1, netting you mana off of each Lotus tap). And, as you noted, if the Engine is in play we'll be able to net mana off the casting of the Flicker.
Thanks for catching this! Update to the Combo list will be forthcoming.
With the full spoilers up for Guilds, some testing done with the main decklist, and with my Teferi Primer being awarded its tag, I have some edits that I'll be making to the main decklist, some changes I'll be making to the Primer in order to receive the Primer tag, and a set review to do for Arcades.
First, set review:
Guilds of Ravnica Set Review
Portcullis Vine - easy include to the deck, as it is a CMC 1 Defender that can get more Card Advantage when we sac other Defenders. I like the fact that it's CMC is 1 and that you COULD draw more cards by sacc-ing Defender creatures. With the recent shift in my approach for this deck, after some fairly extensive game testing, it's not going to be as All-In on the combo as it initially was created to be. This Wall will find a place in this new list.
Grappling Sundew - a nice CMC 2 Defender that can become indestructible. Not bad, but there are better options at the same CMC.
Wall of Mist - cool reprint with an awesome flavor text.
Knight of Autumn - a really cool Selesnya ETB creature, it doesn't quite have the synergy we need with Arcades. EDIT: With the new changes that are being made to the deck, the Knight makes the cut for sure.
Thoughtbound Phantasm - another nice CMC 1 Defender that, sadly, we won't be able to consistently grow. The Surveil mechanic is VERY limited in Bant colors, so sadly this Phantasm will have to keep passing through.
Beast Whisperer - drawing cards off of the high number of creatures this deck has is really good. Not quite Soul of the Harvest, it's still a decent source of card advantage that rewards us well for doing what we're already doing.
I don't think there's anything else that really caught my eye from the new set.
But, as mentioned, I've gotten in quite a few more reps with the main decklist than I had when I originally wrote out the Primer, and I've come to a conclusion about this decklist.
Arcades is firmly a semi-Competitive Commander.
Arcades doesn't have the speed to compete with Ad Naus decks or other Storm based decks. It's main card advantage engine (Arcades' trigger) relies on casting vanilla-ish Defender creatures that don't impact the board/opponents' strategies like Hate-Bears do. There are multiple points of interaction during the combo turn and not enough interaction to reliably prevent others from combo-ing off or protecting our own win condition. And people killing Arcades puts a MAJOR setback to this deck's gameplan.
All of these weaknesses together reaffirm the idea that although there are competitive ways to build this deck, I shouldn't be building this deck to compete against those more streamlined and efficient Combo decks. It quite simply doesn't have the card quality to reliably do that.
So! What this means is that I'll be updating the list in a very significant way to have it fit with the level of play it can actually produce on a consistent basis. The amount of damage that this deck can output (as long as Arcades isn't dead) is quite significant, and I think I might lean into the natural creature synergies that Bant colors have. I think I'll also be making the deck less reliant on Arcades being in play. Perhaps I just had some bad experiences with my playgroup, but I simply could NOT keep Arcades around for some reason. It felt like I was constantly doing nothing except recasting Arcades and eking out a few draw triggers here and there and swinging in for beats.
This list is the list that I will eventually be posting as the main decklist. I'll be constantly editing this list until I feel like it's at a place where it can effectively compete. I'll update this post once the decklist is totally firmed up.
I really liked your deck list so I created a fork of my own that is working decently with my play group. I have been trying a couple of other iterations to see if I can get better results. However it generally will win about 50% of the time which isn't bad, I find my only issue is if my mana dorks get wiped early and I have no way of generating mana then relying on top deck mode.
I think I will replace wall of frost with wall of shards, one it shows up in the mail. I believe that growing rites is a great card to have since it's a cheap Gaea's cradle if you can get it to flip, and you also get to search a potential defender. I was also toying with adding Conjurer's closet and maybe adding Spidersilk armor, but ensaring bridge does a good job of shutting down the arial threat if there is one. As I play with the deck it become more efficient with it, but it still have a couple of hickups that do happen which I am trying to work out. The slow bounce lands I find are nice because they are cheap and I can get away with running less mana sources. As well I like having the cycle lands for when you need to draw anything other than land. I also like Rystic Study, if you get it early you get a great card advantage, and late game it help me draw through a mana flood. Let me know what you think, I appreciate your the time you have put into your primers and the commander.
I forgot to add, I normally win by milling out people or going infinite with walking ballista. Normally I do nothing until I do something so I don't appear to be a large threat. But people are now treating the deck with more respect so its getting harder.
@Pufflex
Thanks for the compliments and welcome to the MTGSal forums, comrade! I'm glad that you've found the list to be inspiring for you.
I like what you have going on here. My initial observations is that you seem a little low on Defender creatures in order to reliably trigger Arcades, but I could be wrong on that. YOu have a goodly number of flicker effects so that you get the most mileage out of your Board state, so I approve of that as well. The only card that sticks out to me is Ensnaring Bridge. It doesn't seem like it would be relevant a great deal of the time? More often than not, my hand size is somewhere between 3-5 cards at any given time which doesn't stop any creatures I play against from attacking at all.
I too have found that this list can run dry on Card Advantage as well. I've actually been semi-testing a newer build of the list (found at the bottom of Page 2) that seems to be working decently. It has several engines outside of Arcades so that if Arcades dies I'm not stranded with a bunch of Defender creatures.
Otherwise, I think the list is well made and could definitely fly under the radar. Keep working at it!
Ensnaring bridge is a tough one, normally I bring it in if all of the card draw just isn't there with wargate or top deck. Or even if I have a full hand of cards, it shutsdown all scary Eldrazi threats at the table since most of them have power larger than 7 from what I have seen. Also I have found that the control players at the table give me some protection if a creature player attempts to remove the artifact. But its really situationally based and really dependant on your meta, its one of those cards that isn't relevant until it is. I want to integrate additional defenders on the board, but however I think adding more weenie vanilla defenders isn't the way to go. I think the backup card draw engines would be superior, because well if you have infinite mana you should be able to bring out arcades and win / find another way.
I might try to bring relevark in, however his relevancy all depends on what is in your current situation, just like the bridge. Do you think it's worth adding some wheel effects like Tolarian Winds? We could use the other wheel effects but I would prefer not to refil everyone else with potential responses. What do you think?
I think that adding in Wheel effects like Tolarian Winds is dangerous. If I were to run hard Wheel effects, I would definitely choose to run the draw 7's. While it absolutely sucks to have your opponents get fresh hands, the fact that you can dump your hand of cards and then draw a fresh 7 usually outweighs the cost to your opponents. I will admit, it's taken me literally years to come around to draw 7 effects.
i would actually recommend running Edric. He's a very efficient Card Advantage machine that usually rewards you more than your opponents. I've had a lot of success with it in turning my Goyf-like creatures sideways. I recommend running around 10 sources of card advantage in the deck outside of the Arcades triggers and it's made a noticeable difference.
I will give Edric a try and let you know how it goes. Any suggestions on a card I should cut to make room for Edric?
Also I wanted to know what you thought of Bramble Sovereign it might have an interesting application as we could copy arcades or any other wall that ETBs. Granted we could do this with helm of the host, but this would have interesting interactions if you say copied Eternal Witness and I would assume this would trigger curio and intruder alarm?
It seems like you're playing a really high number of anthem effects, ones that effect only toughness of course. Have you found that it's more effective to only have 2-3 Walls in play at only one time? I would also recommend Edric, Spymaster of Trest in your decklist. With a higher focus of getting your Defender creatures into the Red Zone, it seems like the card draw that Edric enables would be useful.
@umtiger and @darrenhabib
I still haven't been sold off of Wall of Redemption completely. I'm going to try out a few more games with it and then test out Brago. Brago has a pretty notorious reputation in my group, so he often dies pretty quickly before I get the chance to swing with him when I'm playing him. I'll keep testing the Redemption Wall.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
I mean, there's still around 25 defenders in the deck. Builder's Blessing and Stalwart Shield-Bearers are the most basic anthem effect. Oathsworn Giant, Hold the Gates and Brave the Sands all provide vigilance, which has proven to make me one of the most undesirable targets to attack. Spidersilk Armor provides team reach which even lets things like Shield Sphere deter large fliers (which are very common in semi-casual environments, I often see things like Rune-Scarred Demon and Sigarda, Host of Herons). The toughness boosts go quite a ways towards making things like Hornet Nest and Sprouting Phytohydra into real nightmares.
I don't really want to be running Edric, I'm already not a target and the card draw, while nice there sometimes, isn't gong to be as great because I'm not going as wide as other aggro decks.
Yes, but aren't they still being done off walls?
That is indeed true. While I'm sure Pink Floyd is also upset that I missed an opportunity to name the thread after their titular "The Wall" album, I thought that Wall-Ball would more accurately convey the strategy of the deck while still piquing interest in the thread itself.
I made a small change to the deck and added in Pact of Negation in place of Jungle Barrier. The 4 CMC isn't a terrible issue, but the Pact has a lot more application to the deck strategy.
I'm currently working on a hybrid Stax-Aggro deck that takes advantage of the second of Arcades' abilities. The general idea of the deck is that you slow the game down with the plethora of Stax effects in GWU and turn your Defender creatures sidways while generating card advantage via Arcades' draw trigger. I'll post a list once I've got the right framework put together.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
I'm debating about adding another tutor effect or if there should be a mana dork to replace the Sage. 14 mana sources plus the cost reducer of the Familiar seems just fine to me, so I'm leaning towards a tutor or even a removal effect. Any Arcades lurkers with some input on this?
I've also added a couple of more sections to the OP with the goal of hopefully getting this thread into a Primer. I think a couple of other decklists need to be fully explored (Stax and casual-ish straight Aggro) within the OP for it to be considered a complete Primer, but I think it's a good place to start.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
In its place, I'm testing out Ghostly Flicker. It's great with Arcades in play, helps me get more mana out of my mana Walls (Axebane Guardian might be the best card in the whole deck!) with Lightning Greaves, and forms yet another infinite loop with Mnemonic Wall/Eternal Witness + Gilded Lotus + another Defender creature.
I've scrapped several decklists for a Stax based Arcades deck. I can't find the right mix of cards to be truly effective since Arcades' primary synergies have 0 integration with the existing Stax pieces. Essentially, any Stax pieces that are added are standalone cards that don't directly help this strategy. It might be better to abandon the idea, but I'll keep tweaking around with the Stax cards available and what would be the most effective Stax package for the deck without diluting its game strategy.
Decklist Changes
- Gyre Sage
+ Ghostly Flicker
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/murica-its-got-walls-and-prisons/?cb=1532968189
I like what you have going there, personally. I think that I'm going to use your list as a framework for a possible Stax-y list and incorporate some more aggressive Stax pieces into the list.
Which cards have been the best to play in practice?
EDIT: I brewed up a quick Stax list. It's got some nice redundancies and is geared to be effective against Storm and Hulk decks. We're hoping to be able to overwhelm any other mana dork based Stax deck with our relatively superior creatures in combat. Otherwise, the core of the deck is still there.
4x Arcades, the Strategist
Mana Sources (15)
0x Mana Crypt
0x Chrome Mox
1x Sol Ring
1x Birds of Paradise
1x Llanowar Elves
1x Noble Hierarch
1x Avacyn’s Pilgrim
2x Sylvan Caryatid
2x Overgrown Battlement
2x Vine Trellis
2x Ulvenwald Captive
2x Wall of Roots
2x Gatecreeper Vine
2x Sunscape Familiar
3x Axebane Guardian
Tutors (7)
1x Enlightened Tutor
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Worldly Tutor
2x Eladamri’s Call
3x Wargate
3x Whir of Invention
3x Drift of Phantasms
Stax Pieces (9)
1x Grafdigger’s Cage
2x Winter Orb
2x Stony Silence
2x Null Rod
2x Thorn of Amethyst
2x Rest in Peace
2x Gaddok Teeg
3x Aura of Silence
3x Aven Mindcensor
Combo/Utility (8)
2x Tetsuko Umezawa, Fugitive
3x Intruder Alarm
3x Eerie Interlude
3x Cloudstone Curio
4x Aluren
4x Temur Sabertooth
5x Paradox Engine
6x Sun Titan
1x Rapid Hybridization
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Swords to Plowshares
1x Nature’s Claim
2x Gilded Drake
2x Reality Shift
2x Cyclonic Rift
3x Beast Within
3x Aura Shards
5x Fell the Mighty
Defenders (18)
0x Shield Sphere
1x Steel Wall
1x Wall of Vines
2x Wall of Kelp
2x Wall of Shards
2x Wall of Omens
2x Wall of Blossoms
2x Wall of Junk
2x Wall of Mulch
2x Orator of Ojutai
2x Jeskai Barricade
2x Stalwart Shield-Bearers
2x Wall of Tanglecord
3x Carven Caryatid
3x Wall of Denial
3x Hover Barrier
3x Quicksilver Wall
5x Mnemonic Wall
Lands (32)
1x Ancient Tomb
1x Gaea’s Cradle
1x City of Brass
1x Reflecting Pool
1x Command Tower
1x Mana Confluence
1x Tropical Island
1x Tundra
1x Savannah
1x Breeding Pool
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Temple Garden
1x Sunpetal Grove
1x Glacial Fortress
1x Hinterland Harbor
1x Wooded Bastion
1x Flooded Grove
1x Mystic Gate
1x Brushland
1x Adarkar Wastes
1x Yavimaya Coast
1x Windswept Heath
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Flooded Strand
1x Polluted Delta
1x Verdant Catacombs
1x Marsh Flats
1x Wooded Foothills
2x Forest
1x Island
1x Plains
There are still 27 creatures with Defender and the counterspells have been almost cleanly exchanged for the Stax elements that are present in the deck. Sun Titan to recur the Stax pieces as well as the majority of our permanents. Tetsuko Umezawa, Fugitive to make sure that our TarmoWalls can get in for huge chunks of damage. The one card I want to try and find room for is Eternal Witness somehow. I'm thinking that 8 Stax effect should be enough, so I would like to either cut a removal spell or a Stax piece to make room for the Witness. I think going under 27 Defender creatures becomes dangerous, but additional games will verify this.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
Welcome to the forums! I hope you had an enjoyable read through the decklist. The goal is to eventually make this thread a Primer for Arcades. I think he's one of the most odd-ball Commanders and I love having him in my arsenal. Me: "I'll attack you for 24." Opponent: "But those are WALLS. They can't attack!" Me: "Read Arcades' second ability." Opponent: "Block two of them and take the other two for 15..." Hilarious.
In regards to the Remedies Druid that's one of the more powerful combos in Modern, it's a decent combo. The Druid is a mana source for our deck that enables a T3 Arcades like many of the other mana dorks. I also appreciate how compact this combo is in terms of CMC; with proper sequencing you can do it for just 4 mana, which is a great rate as far as infinite combos.
However, I don't think I'd recommend playing this combo in Arcades. The reasons being that the pieces, by themselves, do not have any synergy with the deck whatsoever. I've tried to maximize the efficiency and synergy of each card in the deck so that each card drawn has some sort of impact on our game strategy. The deck is built around the Defender keyword and recycling those Defenders with Arcades (preferably with infinite mana and Temur Sabertooth or Aluren + Cloudstone Curio). Sadly, none of the pieces in the Remedies Druid combo have that important keyword and therefore do not synergize with our Commander. And since none of the pieces do anything to impact the board (especially the Vizier of Remedies), draw cards, offer interaction with our opponents, or otherwise do anything substantial outside of comboing out we elect to pass on this particular combo.
I like where your mind is at, though. Are you just getting into Commander?
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
The Commander card pool is vast, but thankfully many of the cards for this particular Commander are super cheap, ranging in the $0.25 to $3.00 range. The Current decklist is my selection of the best ones, but I'll be updating the Budget list with some cards that have tested well that aren't terribly expensive.
In regards to the Ballista, it's a great infinite mana outlet. I think it comes down simply to preference. I selected infinite combos that are either Defender creatures or that are naturally complementary to the decklist as a whole. The primary combo win, where I infinitely loop Beast Within + Reality Shift to deck all of my opponents and leave them with empty boardstates, is compact and all the pieces are relevant to the deck. Doorkeeper is mostly there for the lolz. "Dude, you just died to a Homunculus!" is an expression that I've used a few times. Arcades takes some really weird, dorky Defender creatures and makes them relevant, which is highly amusing to me.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
4x Arcades, the Strategist
Mana Sources (14)
1x Sol Ring
1x Llanowar Elves
1x Elvish Mystic
1x Avacyn's Pilgrim
1x Fyndhorn Elves
2x Overgrown Battlement
2x Sylvan Caryatid
2x Vine Trellis
2x Wall of Roots
2x Ulvenwald Captive
2x Gatecreeper Vine
2x Sunscape Familiar
3x Axebane Guardian
5x Gilded Lotus
Combo Pieces (5)
1x Banishing Knack
2x Vedalken Mastermind
3x Village Bell-Ringer
3x Intruder Alarm
4x Temur Sabertooth
Utility (11)
2x Tetsuko Umezawa, Fugitive
2x Assault Formation
3x Mentor of the Meek
3x Edric, Spymaster of Trest
3x Ghostly Flicker
3x Eerie Interlude
3x Eternal Witness
4x Brago, King Eternal
5x Reveillark
5x Karmic Guide
5x Sight of the Scalelords
2x Eladamri's Call
3x Wargate
5x Bring to Light
Removal (10)
1x Swords to Plowshares
1x Nature's Claim
2x Reality Shift
2x Blink of an Eye
2x Unexpectedly Absent
3x Beast Within
4x Dusk // Dawn
4x Profaner of the Dead
4x Venser, Shaper Savant
5x Fell the Mighty
Defenders (22)
1x Steel Wall
1x Wall of Vines
2x Wall of Omens
2x Wall of Blossoms
2x Orator of Ojutai
2x Jeskai Barricade
2x Wall of Junk
2x Wall of Mulch
2x Wall of Tanglecord
2x Stalwart Shield-Bearers
2x Doorkeeper
3x Carven Caryatid
3x Wall of Resurgence
3x Quicksilver Wall
3x Wall of Denial
3x Hover Barrier
3x Wall of Frost
3x Basilica Guards
4x Jungle Barrier
4x Tree of Redemption
5x Mnemonic Wall
8x Colossus of Akros
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Sunpetal Grove
1 Simic Guildgate
1 Azorius Guildgate
1 Command Tower
1 Seaside Citadel
1 Selesnya Guildgate
1 Hinterland Harbor
1 Meandering River
1 Tranquil Expanse
1 Woodland Stream
1 Temple of Mystery
1 Temple of Plenty
1 Temple of Enlightenment
1 Simic Growth Chamber
1 Selesnya Sanctuary
1 Azorius Chancery
4 Plains
7 Forest
4 Island
This deck is SUPER budget. Actually, it's almost a Pauper deck. But there's enough synergies and combo pieces that you should still be able to close out games with some good consistency.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
Brawl is definitely an interesting format. I don't like how they basically force you into another money pit with a rotating card pool, but Wizards is a business first.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
Which cards have been the best to play in practice?[/quote]
Obviously aluren and curio are amazing and thats the real end game for me if i havent been smashing people to death with 2 mana 5/5's.
The really strong peices are opposition and static orb. The two are fantastic both together and seperate. Ive also been super impressed with reconnasence. It allows you to just attack with everything every turn avoid bad combat math, and tricks. and on top of that the way the card works and the way the turns are segmented. you can untap all your guys after damage, but still in the combat step, giving you vigilance!
also I have got down to a lean 23 defenders. And I havent been having many issues having them when i need them. so I think you can cut down alittle to find room for other things.
My hardest cuts were making enough blue cards to support force of will.
I've played a couple of games since I last posted and the games were pretty fun. I lost both of them, but I still had a grand time. One of the games was against my brother's Elfball deck and the mono-B Tetsuo Umezawa and ALL of Tetsuo's removal spells were pointed at Arcades. By the end of the game, Arcades cost 10GWU. I did swing for some significant points of damage and I couldn't find any combo pieces in either of those games. So, I think it was mostly just bad luck on my part.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
Forbidden Orchard is all you need to add. Remove Seaside Citadel since it's really awkward in your high powered mana base. The deck definitely does not need ETB tapped mana fixing.
The combo is: Intruder Alarm+Forbidden Orchard+Wall of Resurgence
Gives Infinite Mana, and has the downside of also giving an opponent infinite creatures. You don't need to go infinite though, and a cyclonic rift can take care of it all. It's a good land for a 3 color deck anyway.
Nice work!
First, welcome to the forums! I hope that you find them useful and engaging for your own deck inspiration!
I think that Forbidden Orchard is a good idea! I think that's an easy switch to make and adds another way to combo. I'll simply have to evaluate the decklist to see how readily I can clear the board of an opponent's infinite Spirits, since the combo you mention doesn't actually draw the deck or guarantee a way to deal with the horde of Spirits.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
Great point! You certainly didn't overthink the combo at all... somehow I was, in my mind, able to infinitely flicker 3 Flicker targets instead of the 2. You can still net infinite draw with Arcades in play AND if Mnemonic Wall is the recursion piece. If you have Sunscape Familiar, you can net infinite mana in the same loop (since it reduces the Ghostly Flicker's casting cost by 1, netting you mana off of each Lotus tap). And, as you noted, if the Engine is in play we'll be able to net mana off the casting of the Flicker.
Thanks for catching this! Update to the Combo list will be forthcoming.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
First, set review:
Guilds of Ravnica Set Review
I don't think there's anything else that really caught my eye from the new set.
But, as mentioned, I've gotten in quite a few more reps with the main decklist than I had when I originally wrote out the Primer, and I've come to a conclusion about this decklist.
Arcades is firmly a semi-Competitive Commander.
Arcades doesn't have the speed to compete with Ad Naus decks or other Storm based decks. It's main card advantage engine (Arcades' trigger) relies on casting vanilla-ish Defender creatures that don't impact the board/opponents' strategies like Hate-Bears do. There are multiple points of interaction during the combo turn and not enough interaction to reliably prevent others from combo-ing off or protecting our own win condition. And people killing Arcades puts a MAJOR setback to this deck's gameplan.
All of these weaknesses together reaffirm the idea that although there are competitive ways to build this deck, I shouldn't be building this deck to compete against those more streamlined and efficient Combo decks. It quite simply doesn't have the card quality to reliably do that.
So! What this means is that I'll be updating the list in a very significant way to have it fit with the level of play it can actually produce on a consistent basis. The amount of damage that this deck can output (as long as Arcades isn't dead) is quite significant, and I think I might lean into the natural creature synergies that Bant colors have. I think I'll also be making the deck less reliant on Arcades being in play. Perhaps I just had some bad experiences with my playgroup, but I simply could NOT keep Arcades around for some reason. It felt like I was constantly doing nothing except recasting Arcades and eking out a few draw triggers here and there and swinging in for beats.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
4x Arcades, the Strategist
Mana Sources (14)
1x Sol Ring
1x Noble Hierarch
1x Avacyn's Pilgrim
1x Birds of Paradise
1x Llanowar Elves
2x Bloom Tender
2x Sylvan Caryatid
2x Overgrown Battlement
2x Wall of Roots
2x Vine Trellis
2x Gatecreeper Vine
2x Ulvenwald Captive
2x Sunscape Familiar
3x Axebane Guardian
Removal (14)
1x Swords to Plowshares
1x Nature's Claim
2x Reality Shift
2x Cyclonic Rift
3x Knight of Autumn
3x Reflector Mage
3x Beast Within
4x Sower of Temptation
4x Profaner of the Dead
4x Venser, Shaper Savant
4x Dusk // Dawn
5x Acidic Slime
6x Duplicant
6x Bane of Progress
Blink Effects (8)
2x Jeskai Barricade
3x Eerie Interlude
3x Ghostly Flicker
3x Cloudstone Curio
4x Brago, King Eternal
4x Felidar Guardian
4x Temur Sabertooth
6x Deadeye Navigator
1x Portcullis Vine
2x Wall of Blossoms
2x Wall of Omens
2x Wall of Mulch
2x Orator of Ojutai
3x Mentor of the Meek
3x Edric, Spymaster of Trest
3x Carven Caryatid
4x Jungle Barrier
5x Mulldrifter
Recursion (4)
3x Eternal Witness
5x Mnemonic Wall
5x Reveillark
6x Sun Titan
Tutors (3)
2x Eladamri's Call
3x Wargate
3x Drift of Phantasms
Utility (11)
0x Shield Sphere
2x Wall of Kelp
2x Wall of Junk
2x Wall of Shards
2x Stalwart Shield-Bearers
2x Assault Formation
3x Derevi, Empyrial Tactician
3x Village Bell-Ringer
3x Intruder Alarm
3x Wall of Denial
3x Quicksilver Wall
3x Wall of Resurgence
Lands (34)
1x Krosan Verge
1x Gaea’s Cradle
1x Reflecting Pool
1x Command Tower
1x City of Brass
1x Tropical Island
1x Tundra
1x Savannah
1x Breeding Pool
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Temple Garden
1x Sunpetal Grove
1x Glacial Fortress
1x Hinterland Harbor
1x Wooded Bastion
1x Flooded Grove
1x Mystic Gate
1x Sea of Clouds
1x Bountiful Promenade
1x Brushland
1x Adarkar Wastes
1x Yavimaya Coast
1x Windswept Heath
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Flooded Strand
1x Polluted Delta
1x Verdant Catacombs
1x Marsh Flats
2x Forest
2x Island
2x Plains
Cards I want to Test/Find Room for:
1 Wall of Tanglecord
1 Doorkeeper
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Ephara, God of the Polis
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
I really liked your deck list so I created a fork of my own that is working decently with my play group. I have been trying a couple of other iterations to see if I can get better results. However it generally will win about 50% of the time which isn't bad, I find my only issue is if my mana dorks get wiped early and I have no way of generating mana then relying on top deck mode.
4x Arcades, the Strategist
Utility Creatures
4x Brago, King Eternal
6x Sun Titan
3x Eternal Witness
4x Temur Sabretooth
2x Tetsuko Umezawa, Fugitive
0x Walking Ballista
Tutors
3x Drift of Phantasms
2x Eladamri's Call
1x Enlightened Tutor
3x Wargate
1x Wordly Tutor
Counter Spells
2x Arcane Denial
2x Counter Spell
2x Delay
0x Pact of Negation
3x Render Silent
1x Spell Pierce
1x Swan Song
Artifcats
3x Cloudstone Curio
3x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Lightning Greaves
5x Paradox Engine
Defenders
2x Doorkeeper
2x Jeskai Barricade
5x Mnemonic Wall
1x Perimeter Captain
3x Quicksilver Wall
0x Shield Sphere
2x Stalwart Shield-Bearers
4x Tree of Redemption
2x Wall of Blossoms
3x Wall of Denial
2x Wall of Junk
2x Wall of Kelp
2x Wall of Mulch
2x Wall of Omens
3x Wall of Resurgence
2x Wall of Tanglecord
4x Aluren
5x Asceticism
2x Assault Formation
3x Aura Shards
3x Intruder Alarm
3x Rhystic Study
Instant Removal
2x Cyclonic Rift
2x Reality Shift
1x Swords to Plowshares
Board Wipes
4x Dusk // Dawn
5x Fell the Mighty
5x Wave of Reckoning
Instants
3x Eerie Interlude
3x Ghostly Flicker
Mana Sources
1x Avacyn's Pilgrim
3x Axebane Guardian
1x Birds of Paradise
2x Fellwar Stone
5x Gilded Lotus
3x Growing Rites of Itlimoc
1x Llanowar Elves
2x Overgrown Battlement
1x Sol Ring
2x Sunscape Familiar
2x Sylvan Caryatid
2x Ulvenwald Captive
2x Vine Trellis
2x Wall of Roots
Land
1x Adarkar Wastes
1x Azorius Chancery
1x Bountiful Promenade
1x Breeding Pool
1x Brushland
1x Command Tower
1x Exotic Orchard
1x Flooded Grove
1x Flooded Strand
2x Forest
1x Glacial Fortress
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Irrigated Farmland
1x Mystic Gate
1x Path of Ancestry
1x Plains
1x Polluted Deta
1x Scattered Groves
1x Sea of Clouds
1x Seaside Citadel
1x Selesnya Sanctuary
1x Simic Growth Chamber
1x Sunpetal Grove
1x Temple Garden
1x Windswept Heath
1x Wooded Bastion
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Yavimaya Coast
I think I will replace wall of frost with wall of shards, one it shows up in the mail. I believe that growing rites is a great card to have since it's a cheap Gaea's cradle if you can get it to flip, and you also get to search a potential defender. I was also toying with adding Conjurer's closet and maybe adding Spidersilk armor, but ensaring bridge does a good job of shutting down the arial threat if there is one. As I play with the deck it become more efficient with it, but it still have a couple of hickups that do happen which I am trying to work out. The slow bounce lands I find are nice because they are cheap and I can get away with running less mana sources. As well I like having the cycle lands for when you need to draw anything other than land. I also like Rystic Study, if you get it early you get a great card advantage, and late game it help me draw through a mana flood. Let me know what you think, I appreciate your the time you have put into your primers and the commander.
I forgot to add, I normally win by milling out people or going infinite with walking ballista. Normally I do nothing until I do something so I don't appear to be a large threat. But people are now treating the deck with more respect so its getting harder.
Thanks for the compliments and welcome to the MTGSal forums, comrade! I'm glad that you've found the list to be inspiring for you.
I like what you have going on here. My initial observations is that you seem a little low on Defender creatures in order to reliably trigger Arcades, but I could be wrong on that. YOu have a goodly number of flicker effects so that you get the most mileage out of your Board state, so I approve of that as well. The only card that sticks out to me is Ensnaring Bridge. It doesn't seem like it would be relevant a great deal of the time? More often than not, my hand size is somewhere between 3-5 cards at any given time which doesn't stop any creatures I play against from attacking at all.
I too have found that this list can run dry on Card Advantage as well. I've actually been semi-testing a newer build of the list (found at the bottom of Page 2) that seems to be working decently. It has several engines outside of Arcades so that if Arcades dies I'm not stranded with a bunch of Defender creatures.
Otherwise, I think the list is well made and could definitely fly under the radar. Keep working at it!
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
I might try to bring relevark in, however his relevancy all depends on what is in your current situation, just like the bridge. Do you think it's worth adding some wheel effects like Tolarian Winds? We could use the other wheel effects but I would prefer not to refil everyone else with potential responses. What do you think?
i would actually recommend running Edric. He's a very efficient Card Advantage machine that usually rewards you more than your opponents. I've had a lot of success with it in turning my Goyf-like creatures sideways. I recommend running around 10 sources of card advantage in the deck outside of the Arcades triggers and it's made a noticeable difference.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
Also I wanted to know what you thought of Bramble Sovereign it might have an interesting application as we could copy arcades or any other wall that ETBs. Granted we could do this with helm of the host, but this would have interesting interactions if you say copied Eternal Witness and I would assume this would trigger curio and intruder alarm?