So i have my first draft done, gonna test it out on thursday see how it does and see how it fares in my meta. And come next sunday i may end up playing a bit more EDH with some people I don't play with often. (and in some cases, never played before.)
EDIT: hey would rowans ability trigger on Rings or is rings a triggered ability requiring mana?
yea while i have not used her in game yet, i was thinking about ultimating her again. and you would not have 8, you would gain 8, so you would have 11.
ult a torch of definace and that is 2048 chandra emblems. meaning you would be doing 10240 damage per spell cast, and at the same time, be able to spread it out. (I love absurdly large finite numbers.)
Still not the best combo with a finite number i have seen. One combo was able to produce more tokens than particles in the known universe. But it was not infinite, there was an actual number. (then a massacre wurm happened. Kind of wish i had an Ashnod's Altar to sac all tokens. but if I am going to die where the amount of tokens i control would not even fit in the known universe, So be it.
yea while i have not used her in game yet, i was thinking about ultimating her again. and you would not have 8, you would gain 8, so you would have 11.
ult a torch of definace and that is 2048 chandra emblems. meaning you would be doing 10240 damage per spell cast, and at the same time, be able to spread it out. (I love absurdly large finite numbers.)
I think you're doing some wrong application here. You can only get the trigger at the time of activating, so if you have 3 emblems in play and ultimate anything, then you get the emblem from the activation, then 3 copies. So it would be 8 emblems the third time you ultimate her. You don't get to apply the newly created emblems (that are created then), to that particular ultimate. The "activation" has already been done.
yea while i have not used her in game yet, i was thinking about ultimating her again. and you would not have 8, you would gain 8, so you would have 11.
ult a torch of definace and that is 2048 chandra emblems. meaning you would be doing 10240 damage per spell cast, and at the same time, be able to spread it out. (I love absurdly large finite numbers.)
I think you're doing some wrong application here. You can only get the trigger at the time of activating, so if you have 3 emblems in play and ultimate anything, then you get the emblem from the activation, then 3 copies. So it would be 8 emblems the third time you ultimate her. You don't get to apply the newly created emblems (that are created then), to that particular ultimate. The "activation" has already been done.
ah yes, my bad, it says copy not double.
still you would only have 7. The new emblem and the other 3 copying it giving you 4. (3+4=7)
How des Magosi give you infinite turns? With rowan's emblem, you have to skip your next two turns to get the eon counter. Then when you grab the extra turn, you have to return magosi to your hand.
i fail to see how you can truly utilize it except early game.
How des Magosi give you infinite turns? With rowan's emblem, you have to skip your next two turns to get the eon counter. Then when you grab the extra turn, you have to return magosi to your hand.
i fail to see how you can truly utilize it except early game.
I got a bit ahead of myself. So I found the combo with Rings of Brighthearth, but of course you don't copy the skip turn with Rings, where as with Rowan emblem you don't have a choice, and I didn't take this into consideration.
But to be clear you would skip two turns and get two extra turns, because even though the land is returned, the activated copy is still on the stack so does us much of it as it can. I'm pointing this out so as to show you that it is still possible, but requires extra steps/cards.
You can only do it specifically in a turn where you are going to ultimate Rowan, and get emblem(s).
You have to activate Magosi, the Waterveil "{U}, {T}: Put an eon counter on Magosi, the Waterveil. Skip your next turn", before you activate Rowan's ultimate.
Then you can ultimate Rowan [-8] to get emblem(s).
Use Deserted Temple to untap Magosi, the Waterveil.
Now you activate Magosi, the Waterveil "{T}, Remove an eon counter from Magosi, the Waterveil and return it to its owner's hand: Take an extra turn after this one." and you get two extra turns, but of course skip one, so you get just a single extra turn.
Right so we need to make use of this and cast Rowan Kenrith out again this turn, use her [+2] to build her back up to her ultimate. Will Kenrith [-2] ability should be able to pay for commander tax, as we have her emblem, so will be at 4 less to cast planeswalkers.
On the extra turn use Rowan [+2] to build her up to ultimate again, and then either we need an extra turn card, like Time Warp, etc, or to simply wait out a turn. The Chain Veil, Inexorable Tide and Deepglow Skate can also short cut this.
Now we get to repeat the pattern, by using the skip turn ability before we get other Rowan emblems.
When we activate Magosi, the Waterveil we skip 2 turns.
Now we use Rowan ultimate [-8] and we have 3 emblems.
Because we will have 3 Rowan emblems, we will get 4 extra turns when we activate Magosi, the Waterveil, so 2 extra turns because of the 2 skipped turns.
Now we can naturally get to Rowans emblems because we get 2 extra turns. Because of the way Rowans emblems work with Wills [-2] ability, the commander tax will always be covered to recast her, so this is infinite turns.
So I only came up with this method now, certainly not as elegant as just simply playing the lands, but Magosi, the Waterveil is a free land, so doesn't cost the deck really anything to potentially have this as an option.
And as I've shown if you already have a Rowan emblem(s), then you can set it up to go infinite straight away, given that you have Rowan setup for another ultimate as well.
Just seems too much of a hassle and set up to utilize fully. Seems like a dead strategy.
Then again if you have a rings no need to worry. Just copy the ability. So even if you have Rowan' emblem and have to skip two turns. You will be netting 3.
Just seems too much of a hassle and set up to utilize fully. Seems like a dead strategy.
Then again if you have a rings no need to worry. Just copy the ability. So even if you have Rowan' emblem and have to skip two turns. You will be netting 3.
I'm going to disagree about it's value.
First of all we assumed a Rowan emblem to start with for the combo. So for infinite turns, it's Rowans emblem AND Rowan setup for an ultimate. That's not very complicated or a hassle.
Secondly you can get an extra turn from just your lands. In the example of when you're going for her first ultimate, you can simply use some lands to get an extra turn, which is actually really powerful. Anytime you can turn your lands into spells, it's a really excellent way of stretching out the value of your deck. The Deserted Temple is in the deck anyway for the infinite mana and untap attacking creature protection. So this all comes at the "cost" of a tapped island.
Thirdly, you can actually setup Magosi, the Waterveil with the eon counter earlier in the game, and then use this to get infinite turns on the first Rowan emblem. In this example you don't need Deserted Temple at all.
It's important to note that Will Kenrith [+2] ability actually lasts "until your next turn", so will lock down the creatures until you actually have another turn.
Once you get a Rowan emblem and have previously skipped a turn, then you can get two extra turns, which as I've showed means that you can get infinite turns.
Fourthly the example on the first Rowan emblem, where you take an extra turn, you can use Will Kenrith [+2] ability, you will get to make four creatures 0/3, so you have a really good chance of just getting to your next turn with your planeswalkers intact.
I personally enjoy sequences which are a bit more complicated, and I think opponents appreciate it as well. Like if you just have two card combos, which don't require sequencing or thought, well it's not very challenging for you, and opponents certainly don't think it's clever. So call it my ego, but I actually prefer to work a bit harder to find the correct lines for winning. It's definitely win-less, but much more satisfying.
Just seems too much of a hassle and set up to utilize fully. Seems like a dead strategy.
Then again if you have a rings no need to worry. Just copy the ability. So even if you have Rowan' emblem and have to skip two turns. You will be netting 3.
I'm going to disagree about it's value.
First of all we assumed a Rowan emblem to start with for the combo. So for infinite turns, it's Rowans emblem AND Rowan setup for an ultimate. That's not very complicated or a hassle.
Secondly you can get an extra turn from just your lands. In the example of when you're going for her first ultimate, you can simply use some lands to get an extra turn, which is actually really powerful. Anytime you can turn your lands into spells, it's a really excellent way of stretching out the value of your deck. The Deserted Temple is in the deck anyway for the infinite mana and untap attacking creature protection. So this all comes at the "cost" of a tapped island.
Thirdly, you can actually setup Magosi, the Waterveil with the eon counter earlier in the game, and then use this to get infinite turns on the first Rowan emblem. In this example you don't need Deserted Temple at all.
It's important to note that Will Kenrith [+2] ability actually lasts "until your next turn", so will lock down the creatures until you actually have another turn.
Once you get a Rowan emblem and have previously skipped a turn, then you can get two extra turns, which as I've showed means that you can get infinite turns.
Fourthly the example on the first Rowan emblem, where you take an extra turn, you can use Will Kenrith [+2] ability, you will get to make four creatures 0/3, so you have a really good chance of just getting to your next turn with your planeswalkers intact.
I personally enjoy sequences which are a bit more complicated, and I think opponents appreciate it as well. Like if you just have two card combos, which don't require sequencing or thought, well it's not very challenging for you, and opponents certainly don't think it's clever. So call it my ego, but I actually prefer to work a bit harder to find the correct lines for winning. It's definitely win-less, but much more satisfying.
yea after thinking about it I agree that it does work, and as said, with rings it is a 2 card combo (Though slightly delayed.) You need deserted Temple for it to work out in your favor every time
Sadly minamo cannot untap it (I don't understand why Magosi is not legendary) (you need two uptaps, luckily if you have at least 1 blue mana, and 5 anything else, this does work.
Play Magosi, Use temple to untap, copy with rings. Tap for eon counter, use second untap, Use extra turn, copy with rings.
doing to rowan emblem each turn is a lot harder to pull off.
I think expropriate is going to be great in this deck. They don't want to give me more turns, but they also do not want me to steal their stuff. Twincast or fork it, boom they now need to give you even more turns or they have to give you a chance to take their blightsteel.
they all allow me to copy spells, which is good. and Wild Ricochet can also be used as protection. (they play Beast within, wild rochet and kill two of their things instead.)
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so i had a few games last night with my alteration and i lost all but one. (There was one i almost won, but stupid Aetherflux reservoir) I guess losing to the guy who always wins is more appealing than losing to me.
Still i had fun every game, it is truly a fun deck and I love that you made a primer for it (Well is this a primer? It feels like it is. I guess not really, but who cares?) Fact of the matter, I had fun even if i lost 7/8 games.
Just to put it in perspective I won 3/4 games last week with Ramos superfriends, and did not enjoy it. Granted with 5 color you can play any planeswalker so the decks get overwhelming. You want to do so many different things.
If you actually compare it with Jace, the Mind Sculptor, it does have legs. Costs 1 more, but comes with 2 more loyalty. If you compare [0] abilities, often you'll be drawing 2 cards with Tezzeret, where as Jace can leave you card locked without a shuffle ability. In this particular deck there are 13 shuffle effects, which is 1/7 cards, which is a little low to consistently be able to get a shuffle effect.
So what I'm saying is that the draw 2 with Tezzeret is probably a little better than Jaces Brainstorm effect. Not always, but I feel go-by-numbers might lean towards Tezzeret being the better card advantage.
Then the ultimate is a natural 6 turns with Jace, and 5 turns with Tezzeret. Tezzeret can ultimate with a Deepglow Skate off starting loyalty, where as Jace needs to build up first. Jace ultimate basically kills one opponent, where as Tezzeret is better setup to win a game among many opponents. Although it must be noted that, because his emblem triggers on end of turn, that you won't get use out of planeswalker you might search for, and it leaves them vunerable to being removed. It's likely that your first card is a defensive card like Meishin, the Mind Cage, or a setup card like Omniscience.
Jace can remove the biggest threat off the board with [-1], where as Tezzeret [+1] can offer a little protection in 1/1 creatures, but are not the greatest in the face of a board full of creatures, so it's a little hard to compare these abilities. But if we are talking about ticking up loyalty, Tezzeret is a little more proactive to the overall game plan than Jaces in my opinion.
So I'm kind of convincing myself that Tezzeret, Artifice Master might actually be a better card in this deck than Jace, the Mind Sculptor. And I am a sucker for art and Tez is looking awesome in this artwork.
I do think in a deck that naturally has cards like Storm the Vault would be more powerful in. Breya, Etherium Shaper seems like one of the better fits and you run Thopter Spy Network and some other synergies with small flyers.
so i had a few games last night with my alteration and i lost all but one. (There was one i almost won, but stupid Aetherflux reservoir) I guess losing to the guy who always wins is more appealing than losing to me.
Still i had fun every game, it is truly a fun deck and I love that you made a primer for it (Well is this a primer? It feels like it is. I guess not really, but who cares?) Fact of the matter, I had fun even if i lost 7/8 games.
Just to put it in perspective I won 3/4 games last week with Ramos superfriends, and did not enjoy it. Granted with 5 color you can play any planeswalker so the decks get overwhelming. You want to do so many different things.
Great to hear that you enjoy it, although I would have liked to see you score a few more wins. I do think you need to be careful about running too many reactive cards like twincast, Dualcaster mage, Wild ricochet, Fork, Reverberate, and reiterate, that you mentioned in previous post. They can end up being dead cards, and if you're being beaten up on, not going to help. I understand if you can't include some of the extra turn cards, they are $$ expensive. But the really do help to make the deck a lot stronger, as you can set up things like Rowans emblem so much better with extra turn cards.
If you get a chance maybe you can post your list, and can help to work better in your meta? Might be that we need to add more creature removal, there is plenty of options for more mass removal.
I aim to make all my deck list primers in a certain way, except I don't actually believe in "primers for commanders", as there are essentially infinite ways to build around a commander. Primers to me are more about a particular theme behind a deck (not commanders), and trying to explain it and all the strategies as clearly as possible, so that other people can potentially enjoy it as well.
Like this is in no way a "Will & Rowan Kenrith" primer. It's more like a ""Will & Rowan Kenrith SuperFriends" primer, and even then I wouldn't consider it the only way to go. So would never submit it for any official list, because it just doesn't make sense to me.
i think the biggest issue was that it was the first time anyone had seen Will and Rowan, and everyone i know does not like seeing PWs, so they focus me worried what i an do and because i used Planewalkers.. (i mean Archon of Valor's reach was used against me.) And as I said, Aetherflux reservoir killed me when i was about to win.
I think it is also because i was not fully sure how to pilot the deck yet.
I do think that you need more creature removal. I can understand you not wanting to play Jokulhaups or Obliterate because mass land destruction can be very frowned upon.
So some suggestions are: Chandra, Flamecaller - It is comparable to xR spells, but can only do 4 damage on it's first turn play. but this might be good enough. Dismissed this planewalker because of the [+1] is so useless to the game plan of the deck. But the [0] can be used. Mizzium Mortars - Too be honest I feel like I should be adding this to my deck list, even with the other creature kill cards in. You should play this for sure. Rolling Earthquake - $8, but the most robust of the X spells. Fault Line - waiting until just before your turn has a lot of upside. Lavaball Trap - You should get an opponent playing and using a fetch land, so this is much more reliable to be turn on for the 3RR than you might think. Obviously much more acceptable form of land destruction and should clear the board of a lot of creatures. Volcanic Offering - Better card than it looks Keranos, God of Storms - Can do work over time with the 3 damage, but with planeswalkers giving devotion has a chance at being an indestructible creature, which can threaten to block and kill most ground creatures. Seriously considering to include this card.
As far as what to take out, well I'm going to be biased towards making yours as close as a carbon copy of mine, but the reactive cards like Fork,Reverberate, Twincast, I feel don't benefit with cost reduction, and are really a multiplayer novelty. So definitely you'll lose more games with these cards in, but might have more memorable moments? So just depends on how you feel about being more consistent with SuperFriend plays, rather than general fun plays.
i am actually not against using MLD. I removed Jokulhaups due to the fact that I feel MLDing my own lands would not be beneficial. Since Haups hits artifacts as well, even my Mana rocks would be destroyed meaning i have 0 mana and my combo pieces would also be gone. I feel it hurts me way more than it hurts my opponent in the long run.
Paradox engine is brilliant. i will have to grab one.
yea i would have preferred cheaper spells but I feel Coldsteel heart is bsically a 3 drop since it costs 2 and comes into play tapped, and then felidar stone can only copy opponent colors. While blue is prominent, red is not, plus there are games i tend to not play against blue at all (Green deck, White deck, Black deck) meaning it is a 2 drop rock but doe snot produce the colored mana i need (Which is why i went with the other three rocks)
i actually cannot use the X spells that hurt me. mainly due to having multiple players hitting me early game, i won't have the life to survive the hits and deal self damage.
Mizzium mortars possibly, its overload is quite expensive but if i am casting cards like expropriate, it does not seem as bad. Granted chain reaction and blasphemous act have been doing their fair share of work.
Also expropriate has not been difficult to cast, even early game. they chose time since they had mana rocks they could afford me to gain control of. (And probably the right choice as I lost that game, even with 4 extra turns, i drew garbage.)
i am actually not against using MLD. I removed Jokulhaups due to the fact that I feel MLDing my own lands would not be beneficial. Since Haups hits artifacts as well, even my Mana rocks would be destroyed meaning i have 0 mana and my combo pieces would also be gone. I feel it hurts me way more than it hurts my opponent in the long run.
Mizzium mortars possibly, its overload is quite expensive but if i am casting cards like expropriate, it does not seem as bad. Granted chain reaction and blasphemous act have been doing their fair share of work.
Also expropriate has not been difficult to cast, even early game. they chose time since they had mana rocks they could afford me to gain control of. (And probably the right choice as I lost that game, even with 4 extra turns, i drew garbage.)
The only reason I don't run more artifact mana is because of Nevinyrral's Disk, Jokulhaups, and Obliterate. So it makes sense if you're not running them that you can play more artifacts, and then you do get the bonus that you get to play the Paradox Engine.
Mizzium Mortars can cost 4 mana with Will [-2], and also really great having the option being able to cast it for 1R to get an early commander. I've added it to the deck, I should have had it to start with.
Karn Liberated only real ability used is the [-3] exile a permanent. Even with the cost reduction, having a catch all removal at say [mana]5[/mama], is still a little slow. Mass removal is much better.
Also the ultimate is pretty annoying. It can actually win you the game, you can hit some exiled permanents that can send make you ahead on a restart, but you run the risk of being dragged off to the parking lot for a good old beating, lol.
Did you count Will and Rowan as shuffle effects? Cause partner with lets you search your library and fail to find always.
I'd agree he's better than JTMS in EDH overall but that's because JTMS isn't all that great outside of 1v1 environments.
Anyway got a couple more games in and something that comes up repeatedly is that when I go for the Jokulhaups that something relevant of me gets bounced/destroyed/chaos warped. As such I think I will be adding Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir even though the flash granting ability will not find that much use. Also works well w/ Rowan's +2 to surprise block.
Probably cutting Torrential Gearhulk as I've consistently found myself unable to make use of it.
While I'm generally opposed to running extra turns I'm also thinking about running Savor the Moment.
I never even thought about that shuffle you can do with casting Will or Rowan! Certainly makes Sensei's Divining Top a little better, and might be able to get a little extra out of Jace, the Mind Sculptor.
On the subject of creatures, I went through a bunch of creatures at 5 mana or less, because I wanted to see if there were some defensive creatures on mana curve leading up to castin Will & Rowan. This was the list:
I'm mentioning them, because with Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir, you could lean towards a more creature defensive deck and take out some of the creature removal. Not saying that's correct, but it is an option.
You can cast Willbreaker and then you can steal two creatures with Will Kenrith [+2] ability.
Ixidron seems powerful as well, you can make sure that all the creatures are within Rowans 3 damage range, plus lose any ability which is tricky to deal with.
Reef Worm just one of the best defensive creatures you can get, as you don't mind killing them to your own mass removal.
out of curiosity. with Will and rowan being cast. is it a forced search? Cause i can then force someone who just vampiric tutored to shuffle their deck if that is the case.
also I like the idea of willbreaker reef worm and ixodron.
Silent Arbiter is also really good.
Stuffy Doll can mean that the player you choose, is less likely to attack you, but it does also mean that other players can see the value in attacking you as well. So if you do it by numbers, in theory more players are incentivized to attack you.
Works nice with the damage to creature spells, but too be honest not really looking to kill opponents with damage anyway.
So I'm a bit on the fence about Stuffy Doll.
EDIT: hey would rowans ability trigger on Rings or is rings a triggered ability requiring mana?
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
I got Rowan's emblem. Then I thought I might as well cast her out again, and build up to another emblem, as you can have multiple of them.
But of course you get to copy the ultimate again with her emblem, so I had 3 of her emblems!
People scooped as I went to use Wills [+2] to make 8 creatures 0/3 and people figured it was a lock.
But funnily enough if for some reason the game went on longer, and you ultimate her again, then you'd get 8 emblems, lol.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
ult a torch of definace and that is 2048 chandra emblems. meaning you would be doing 10240 damage per spell cast, and at the same time, be able to spread it out. (I love absurdly large finite numbers.)
Still not the best combo with a finite number i have seen. One combo was able to produce more tokens than particles in the known universe. But it was not infinite, there was an actual number. (then a massacre wurm happened. Kind of wish i had an Ashnod's Altar to sac all tokens. but if I am going to die where the amount of tokens i control would not even fit in the known universe, So be it.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
ah yes, my bad, it says copy not double.
still you would only have 7. The new emblem and the other 3 copying it giving you 4. (3+4=7)
not as insane/broken as i thought.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
i fail to see how you can truly utilize it except early game.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
But to be clear you would skip two turns and get two extra turns, because even though the land is returned, the activated copy is still on the stack so does us much of it as it can. I'm pointing this out so as to show you that it is still possible, but requires extra steps/cards.
You can only do it specifically in a turn where you are going to ultimate Rowan, and get emblem(s).
You have to activate Magosi, the Waterveil "{U}, {T}: Put an eon counter on Magosi, the Waterveil. Skip your next turn", before you activate Rowan's ultimate.
Then you can ultimate Rowan [-8] to get emblem(s).
Use Deserted Temple to untap Magosi, the Waterveil.
Now you activate Magosi, the Waterveil "{T}, Remove an eon counter from Magosi, the Waterveil and return it to its owner's hand: Take an extra turn after this one." and you get two extra turns, but of course skip one, so you get just a single extra turn.
Right so we need to make use of this and cast Rowan Kenrith out again this turn, use her [+2] to build her back up to her ultimate. Will Kenrith [-2] ability should be able to pay for commander tax, as we have her emblem, so will be at 4 less to cast planeswalkers.
On the extra turn use Rowan [+2] to build her up to ultimate again, and then either we need an extra turn card, like Time Warp, etc, or to simply wait out a turn. The Chain Veil, Inexorable Tide and Deepglow Skate can also short cut this.
Now we get to repeat the pattern, by using the skip turn ability before we get other Rowan emblems.
When we activate Magosi, the Waterveil we skip 2 turns.
Now we use Rowan ultimate [-8] and we have 3 emblems.
Because we will have 3 Rowan emblems, we will get 4 extra turns when we activate Magosi, the Waterveil, so 2 extra turns because of the 2 skipped turns.
Now we can naturally get to Rowans emblems because we get 2 extra turns. Because of the way Rowans emblems work with Wills [-2] ability, the commander tax will always be covered to recast her, so this is infinite turns.
So I only came up with this method now, certainly not as elegant as just simply playing the lands, but Magosi, the Waterveil is a free land, so doesn't cost the deck really anything to potentially have this as an option.
And as I've shown if you already have a Rowan emblem(s), then you can set it up to go infinite straight away, given that you have Rowan setup for another ultimate as well.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Then again if you have a rings no need to worry. Just copy the ability. So even if you have Rowan' emblem and have to skip two turns. You will be netting 3.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
First of all we assumed a Rowan emblem to start with for the combo. So for infinite turns, it's Rowans emblem AND Rowan setup for an ultimate. That's not very complicated or a hassle.
Secondly you can get an extra turn from just your lands. In the example of when you're going for her first ultimate, you can simply use some lands to get an extra turn, which is actually really powerful. Anytime you can turn your lands into spells, it's a really excellent way of stretching out the value of your deck. The Deserted Temple is in the deck anyway for the infinite mana and untap attacking creature protection. So this all comes at the "cost" of a tapped island.
Thirdly, you can actually setup Magosi, the Waterveil with the eon counter earlier in the game, and then use this to get infinite turns on the first Rowan emblem. In this example you don't need Deserted Temple at all.
It's important to note that Will Kenrith [+2] ability actually lasts "until your next turn", so will lock down the creatures until you actually have another turn.
Once you get a Rowan emblem and have previously skipped a turn, then you can get two extra turns, which as I've showed means that you can get infinite turns.
Fourthly the example on the first Rowan emblem, where you take an extra turn, you can use Will Kenrith [+2] ability, you will get to make four creatures 0/3, so you have a really good chance of just getting to your next turn with your planeswalkers intact.
I personally enjoy sequences which are a bit more complicated, and I think opponents appreciate it as well. Like if you just have two card combos, which don't require sequencing or thought, well it's not very challenging for you, and opponents certainly don't think it's clever. So call it my ego, but I actually prefer to work a bit harder to find the correct lines for winning. It's definitely win-less, but much more satisfying.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
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-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
yea after thinking about it I agree that it does work, and as said, with rings it is a 2 card combo (Though slightly delayed.) You need deserted Temple for it to work out in your favor every time
Sadly minamo cannot untap it (I don't understand why Magosi is not legendary) (you need two uptaps, luckily if you have at least 1 blue mana, and 5 anything else, this does work.
Play Magosi, Use temple to untap, copy with rings. Tap for eon counter, use second untap, Use extra turn, copy with rings.
doing to rowan emblem each turn is a lot harder to pull off.
I think expropriate is going to be great in this deck. They don't want to give me more turns, but they also do not want me to steal their stuff. Twincast or fork it, boom they now need to give you even more turns or they have to give you a chance to take their blightsteel.
I wnat to include twincast, Dualcaster mage, Wild ricochet, Fork, Reverberate, and reiterate.
they all allow me to copy spells, which is good. and Wild Ricochet can also be used as protection. (they play Beast within, wild rochet and kill two of their things instead.)
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
So that just happened...
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
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Still i had fun every game, it is truly a fun deck and I love that you made a primer for it (Well is this a primer? It feels like it is. I guess not really, but who cares?) Fact of the matter, I had fun even if i lost 7/8 games.
Just to put it in perspective I won 3/4 games last week with Ramos superfriends, and did not enjoy it. Granted with 5 color you can play any planeswalker so the decks get overwhelming. You want to do so many different things.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
If you actually compare it with Jace, the Mind Sculptor, it does have legs. Costs 1 more, but comes with 2 more loyalty. If you compare [0] abilities, often you'll be drawing 2 cards with Tezzeret, where as Jace can leave you card locked without a shuffle ability. In this particular deck there are 13 shuffle effects, which is 1/7 cards, which is a little low to consistently be able to get a shuffle effect.
So what I'm saying is that the draw 2 with Tezzeret is probably a little better than Jaces Brainstorm effect. Not always, but I feel go-by-numbers might lean towards Tezzeret being the better card advantage.
Then the ultimate is a natural 6 turns with Jace, and 5 turns with Tezzeret. Tezzeret can ultimate with a Deepglow Skate off starting loyalty, where as Jace needs to build up first. Jace ultimate basically kills one opponent, where as Tezzeret is better setup to win a game among many opponents. Although it must be noted that, because his emblem triggers on end of turn, that you won't get use out of planeswalker you might search for, and it leaves them vunerable to being removed. It's likely that your first card is a defensive card like Meishin, the Mind Cage, or a setup card like Omniscience.
Jace can remove the biggest threat off the board with [-1], where as Tezzeret [+1] can offer a little protection in 1/1 creatures, but are not the greatest in the face of a board full of creatures, so it's a little hard to compare these abilities. But if we are talking about ticking up loyalty, Tezzeret is a little more proactive to the overall game plan than Jaces in my opinion.
So I'm kind of convincing myself that Tezzeret, Artifice Master might actually be a better card in this deck than Jace, the Mind Sculptor. And I am a sucker for art and Tez is looking awesome in this artwork.
I do think in a deck that naturally has cards like Storm the Vault would be more powerful in. Breya, Etherium Shaper seems like one of the better fits and you run Thopter Spy Network and some other synergies with small flyers.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
If you get a chance maybe you can post your list, and can help to work better in your meta? Might be that we need to add more creature removal, there is plenty of options for more mass removal.
I aim to make all my deck list primers in a certain way, except I don't actually believe in "primers for commanders", as there are essentially infinite ways to build around a commander. Primers to me are more about a particular theme behind a deck (not commanders), and trying to explain it and all the strategies as clearly as possible, so that other people can potentially enjoy it as well.
Like this is in no way a "Will & Rowan Kenrith" primer. It's more like a ""Will & Rowan Kenrith SuperFriends" primer, and even then I wouldn't consider it the only way to go. So would never submit it for any official list, because it just doesn't make sense to me.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
i think the biggest issue was that it was the first time anyone had seen Will and Rowan, and everyone i know does not like seeing PWs, so they focus me worried what i an do and because i used Planewalkers.. (i mean Archon of Valor's reach was used against me.) And as I said, Aetherflux reservoir killed me when i was about to win.
I think it is also because i was not fully sure how to pilot the deck yet.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
6 Rowan Kenrith
6 Will Kenrith
Creatures: 4
2 Aphetto Alchemist
4 Clever Impersonator
5 Deepglow Skate
6 The Locust God
Instants: 16
0 pact of Negation
1 Brainstorm
1 Flusterstorm
2 Cyclonic Rift
2 Comet Storm
2 Counterspell
2 Fork
2 reverberate
2 Starstorm
2 Trickbind
2 Twincast
3 Disallow
4 Cryptic Command
4 Fact or Fiction
4 reins of Power
5 Evacuation
1 Preordain
4 Chain Reaction
4 Past in Flames
4 Tezzeret's Gambit
5 Time Warp
8 Beacon of Tomorrows
9 Blasphemous Act
9 Expropriate
10 time Stretch
Enchantments: 5
4 Leyline of anticipation
5 Dream Halls
5 Inexorable tide
7 Meishin, the Mind Cage
10 Omniscience
Artifacts: 15
1 Pyramid of the Pantheon
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol ring
1 Voltaic Key
2 grim monolith
2 izzet signet
2 thaumatic Compass
3 Chromatic Lantern
3 Cloudstone Curio
3 Commander's Sphere
3 Darksteel Ingot
3 Rings of Brighthearth
4 Nevinyrral's disk
4 the Chain Veil
5 Gilded Lotus
3 Dack Fayden
3 Jace Beleren
4 Chandra, torch of Defiance
4 Jace, Architect of Thought
4 Jace, The Mind sculptor
4 Koth of the Hammer
4 Ral Zarek
5 Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
5 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
5 tezzeret the Seeker
6 Chandra, Bold Pyromancer
6 Teferi, temporal Archmage
the rest are lands.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
Maybe add, Coldsteel Heart and Fellwar Stone. Now a card that I really have been super close to adding is Paradox Engine. If you ended up playing these extra artifacts, I'd 100% play Paradox Engine. You'll be able to consistently do cool broken turns if you get to resolve it.
I do think that you need more creature removal. I can understand you not wanting to play Jokulhaups or Obliterate because mass land destruction can be very frowned upon.
So some suggestions are:
Chandra, Flamecaller - It is comparable to xR spells, but can only do 4 damage on it's first turn play. but this might be good enough. Dismissed this planewalker because of the [+1] is so useless to the game plan of the deck. But the [0] can be used.
Mizzium Mortars - Too be honest I feel like I should be adding this to my deck list, even with the other creature kill cards in. You should play this for sure.
Rolling Earthquake - $8, but the most robust of the X spells.
Fault Line - waiting until just before your turn has a lot of upside.
Lavaball Trap - You should get an opponent playing and using a fetch land, so this is much more reliable to be turn on for the 3RR than you might think. Obviously much more acceptable form of land destruction and should clear the board of a lot of creatures.
Volcanic Offering - Better card than it looks
Keranos, God of Storms - Can do work over time with the 3 damage, but with planeswalkers giving devotion has a chance at being an indestructible creature, which can threaten to block and kill most ground creatures. Seriously considering to include this card.
As far as what to take out, well I'm going to be biased towards making yours as close as a carbon copy of mine, but the reactive cards like Fork,Reverberate, Twincast, I feel don't benefit with cost reduction, and are really a multiplayer novelty. So definitely you'll lose more games with these cards in, but might have more memorable moments? So just depends on how you feel about being more consistent with SuperFriend plays, rather than general fun plays.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
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-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Paradox engine is brilliant. i will have to grab one.
yea i would have preferred cheaper spells but I feel Coldsteel heart is bsically a 3 drop since it costs 2 and comes into play tapped, and then felidar stone can only copy opponent colors. While blue is prominent, red is not, plus there are games i tend to not play against blue at all (Green deck, White deck, Black deck) meaning it is a 2 drop rock but doe snot produce the colored mana i need (Which is why i went with the other three rocks)
i actually cannot use the X spells that hurt me. mainly due to having multiple players hitting me early game, i won't have the life to survive the hits and deal self damage.
Mizzium mortars possibly, its overload is quite expensive but if i am casting cards like expropriate, it does not seem as bad. Granted chain reaction and blasphemous act have been doing their fair share of work.
Also expropriate has not been difficult to cast, even early game. they chose time since they had mana rocks they could afford me to gain control of. (And probably the right choice as I lost that game, even with 4 extra turns, i drew garbage.)
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
The only reason I don't run more artifact mana is because of Nevinyrral's Disk, Jokulhaups, and Obliterate. So it makes sense if you're not running them that you can play more artifacts, and then you do get the bonus that you get to play the Paradox Engine.
Mizzium Mortars can cost 4 mana with Will [-2], and also really great having the option being able to cast it for 1R to get an early commander. I've added it to the deck, I should have had it to start with.
Added
+ Mizzium Mortars
Removed
- Karn Liberated
Karn Liberated only real ability used is the [-3] exile a permanent. Even with the cost reduction, having a catch all removal at say [mana]5[/mama], is still a little slow. Mass removal is much better.
Also the ultimate is pretty annoying. It can actually win you the game, you can hit some exiled permanents that can send make you ahead on a restart, but you run the risk of being dragged off to the parking lot for a good old beating, lol.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
I never even thought about that shuffle you can do with casting Will or Rowan! Certainly makes Sensei's Divining Top a little better, and might be able to get a little extra out of Jace, the Mind Sculptor.
On the subject of creatures, I went through a bunch of creatures at 5 mana or less, because I wanted to see if there were some defensive creatures on mana curve leading up to castin Will & Rowan. This was the list:
I'm mentioning them, because with Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir, you could lean towards a more creature defensive deck and take out some of the creature removal. Not saying that's correct, but it is an option.
I really like Reef Worm, Faerie Artisans, Ixidron, Willbreaker, Creepy Doll, Keranos, God of Storms.
You can cast Willbreaker and then you can steal two creatures with Will Kenrith [+2] ability.
Ixidron seems powerful as well, you can make sure that all the creatures are within Rowans 3 damage range, plus lose any ability which is tricky to deal with.
Reef Worm just one of the best defensive creatures you can get, as you don't mind killing them to your own mass removal.
Reef Worm, Creepy Doll, Keranos, God of Storms all resilient with Nevinyrral's Disk, Jokulhaups, Obliterate, plus all the other removal.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
damn, since both of them are in command zone, no reason to search, i could mess people up who use tutors.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
also I like the idea of willbreaker reef worm and ixodron.
Silent Arbiter is also really good.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
Works nice with the damage to creature spells, but too be honest not really looking to kill opponents with damage anyway.
So I'm a bit on the fence about Stuffy Doll.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith