I've written the "card choices" section to better explain the deck design and how combinations of cards can work together.
These are such fresh new cards on the scene that if you have any ideas on the multitude of options available please leave a post
I've only just scratched the surface with these two. I feel like there are going to be a lot more broken things that can be done, but I'm sure the community is still figuring things out.
As I lack the amount of planeswalkers to do this list, I'm thinking a bit of a tap down theme would be good. This list looks great tho, I felt burned out on izzet after playing Locus God, and I've barely had my Jhoira deck build for two weeks, it looks like I'll be having two izzet decks in my box that do different shenanigans!!!
As I lack the amount of planeswalkers to do this list, I'm thinking a bit of a tap down theme would be good. This list looks great tho, I felt burned out on izzet after playing Locus God, and I've barely had my Jhoira deck build for two weeks, it looks like I'll be having two izzet decks in my box that do different shenanigans!!!
If you make a more Rowan Kenrith centric deck, then you might want to play creatures that can block, kill and survive to punish opponents that plan to come in at you.
I've struggled to find this creature base so far, but I'm sure it will unfold over time. I think you're mainly looking for converted-mana-cost 5 or less, so that you can cast Rowan on curve. If people have cards that they think would be great at blocking please suggest.
This way you can have less focus on creature removal, and there will be more consistency with having creatures to protect at least Rowan and Will.
Because I have a focused game plan on using Nevinyrral's Disk, Jokulhaups, Obliterate as ways to gain huge advantages, this is why my deck is almost creatureless.
Well I've been exploring Rowan Kenrith emblem more, and I've been figuring out a lot of powerful plays you can do, and adjusted the deck accordling. I've picked cards that slot into the deck without losing too much quality on the rest of the deck without the emblem.
But because you can potentially get the emblem naturally within 3 turns of her being in play, it is a solid game plan. Also Deepglow Skate can get you the emblem straight away. The extra turn cards also really help to make it possible to get her and Will's emblems.
Her emblem allows you to get infinite colorless mana with Grim Monolith.
With Voltaic Key and an artifact that produce two or more mana, you can get infinite mana. You can use one activation to untap itself and the other to untap the mana rock. Gilded Lotus and Pyramid of the Pantheon will get you infinite colored mana. Mana Crypt, Sol Ring, Mana Vault, will get you infinite colorless.
Note that Izzet Signet will not get you any infinite mana, but you can use it to get colored mana through the colorless fore-mentioned artifacts, as a means of filtering.
Note the same thing can be done with Basalt Monolith, but currently don't have this in the deck, as really colored mana is key to chaining off with my current configuration. Will Kenrith ability for cost reduction means that often the colorless portion of casting costs is covered.
Sensei's Divining Top can be used to basically draw a card, for as many times as you want to recast it for 1, as it will activate the draw twice, it'll go back on top of library, and then because you're drawing two card you'll draw it again. I don't have it in the deck, because already have enough draw effects, and not enough other uses for Top, other than a handful of shuffle effects.
Aphetto Alchemist is the same as Voltaic Key in that it can untap itself and a mana rock. Note this guy can be used with artifacts that only produce one mana for infinite.
All the lands that search for lands will get you double value. So you will be able to get two lands each time, and with Myriad Landscape you will be getting four.
With the emblem, Tolaria West will allow you to get whatever two combo lands you want to win.
You'll be able to use Maze of Ith or Spires of Orazca on two creatures.
If you have Deserted Temple as well, you can remove as many creatures from combat for each 1 you can pay.
An Azcanta, the Sunken Ruin activation will be more like casting a Dig Through Time, as you get to do it twice.
Then for the coup de grace, untap with either Minamo, School at Water's Edge or Deserted Temple which will have two activation's meaning that you can untap Azcanta twice, allowing you to essentially all up look at the top 24 cards of your library and put a selection of 6 of those non-creature non-land cards into your hand. This is all for 6UUUU plus the mentioned lands tapping.
Probably a more likely and less greedy play is to spend 4UU for a look at top 16 cards for 4 cards into hand.
You can see that her emblem can turn your land base into win conditions which is very powerful.
With the emblem, Tolaria West or Expedition Map will allow you to get whatever two combo lands you want to win.
I've finally been able to knock off the final cards needed for my build, didn't find a particular theme to stick to though nor did I go deep on the combos.
I went for a small nonbasic land hate theme to stall/lock the game out. The rest is a rather generic control deck.
Cards I've not seen mentioned have been Twisted Image and Inside Out. They work really well w/ Will's plus. Also haven't seen Time Spiral that generates mana w/ Will's minus.
When I was making piles of potential cards, I had a Back to Basics, Blood Moon, Ruination pile. The thing is that you could easily play a Wildfire, Burning of Xinye, Destructive Force, Devastation strategy. Will Kenrith ability to reduce your sorceries means that you can cast these for 2RR. So your ability to keep casting these back-to-back during games is highly realistic.
I do have the Jokulhaups and Obliterate for this type of plan, but you could go much deeper into it, but I'm into more interaction games, more fun shall we say.
Then you just combine Will & Rowan to keep clearing the first lots of creatures that keep hitting the board. A very powerful archetype in my opinion.
As far as your deck Schreckstoff the only changes I would make off-the-bat is: Molten Disaster => Fault Line - instant removal is so much better as you can do it before your turn to setup casting your planewalkers.
Any land => Strip Mine - you have the Crucible of Worlds, so really you should leverage this.
Primal Amulet and Metallurgic Summonings are not looking amazing in this deck. You have a 25% instant and sorcery spell ratio, so these cards will be a little slow. Not unplayable, but will not be as good as you will hope.
This deck is pretty sweet, and has inspired me to take my own spin on it. Also, fyi you have 35 lands, not 34.
Plenty of directions to take these two for sure.
Alright had to remove an Island, but the reality is that I'm really on 33 lands, because I consider Maze of Ith to be a spell. Probably should really take out another card and leave in the Island, but all the cards in the deck are so sweet, just can't decide on one, lol.
I put in The Locust God, over Creepy Doll. I think going wide is going to help more with protecting PWs, even though it's a turn slower.
Got a couple games in w/ the Twins and won 2 of them on the back of Obliterate. Will is the centrepiece of the deck but he's only there to Ult Rowan. Finished one of those games by getting 6 Chandra Emblems.
Kefnet and Locust God, have been my overperformers at protecting Twins But getting in a position to comfortably cast either of them has been difficult. They are bad vs conuntermagic and need only few creatures on the field. You almost want another control deck on the table.
I have been thinking about Vedalken Orrery as another way to get better timing with PWs, and it does line up well with navigating around opponents counterspells. You can pick your spots when opponents have tapped out.
I dearly wanted to play Chandra, Bold Pyromancer, but unfortunately it's other abilities don't do anything for us realistically. Stupid pre-con planeswalker decks, making sure the PW are unplayable.
But I have kept coming back to it going "hmmm, should I play it?", trying to convince myself. It might be better to play it over say Karn Liberated. Sure Karns [-3] is good in a pinch, but the other abilities are not really want you want to be doing in multiplayer.
Honestly I've probably convinced myself to give it a go over Karn.
alright played a good 12 hours of EDH over the last 2 days w/ the Twins. Best I can describe how my version plays is midrange, it's not really a control deck or stax or superfriends but it tries to play big stuff and keep some control of the board until it can profitably cast Obliterate. I took out Inside Out for now for Jaya Ballard and Primal Amulet for Mana Vault.
Still trying to stay away from Teferi but that just might be a fool's errand.
So I had a second turn win with Teferi, Temporal Archmage and The Chain Veil, but the thing was the I didn't play it out because I wanted to test MY actual deck
But Teferi, Temporal Archmage is the best mana producing planewalker, so get your grubby hands on a copy and you can ask for forgiveness at a later date to still get through those pearly gates.
I own one already from my Narset Superfriends list but didn't want to run him cause he pretty much invalidates the commanders imo, by being better than them in the same deck as the commander.
You know when I was first laying out concepts, I had this idea of being an artifact hosing deck as well.
I had this pile; Null Rod, Shatterstorm, Pulverize, Energy Flux.
Because I actually had in the back of my mind, how to make these two work as an actual alternative to Teferi.
So you could make a Stax deck, which is artifact light, which looks to punish artifact centric decks, like Teferi.
Combine this with a couple more of the mass land destruction cards, and you can really make a case for being legitimate alternative to Teferi as planewalker as commander.
Now I wanted to make a more fun deck, and really wanted to play with their abilities (outright learn what's possible) and also Super Friends just has more variance, so I consider it way more enjoyable to a Stax strategy.
But this mass removal on all fronts build is there to be had. You play only a select few planewalkers, and go for the heavy artifact removal, and incorporate cost more cards (Stax), and then use Wills ability to neutralize creatures, and then cost reduction for the mass removal, and it could be top-tiered. Combine that with Rowan being able to also deal with creatures and you can get mid-range control, that can potential hose artifact decks, like Teferi.
[EDIT] Oboro, Palace in the Clouds is a card that works with returning before a mass land destruction spell.
With Obliterate and Jokulhaups overlooking Enchantments, it might be a good idea to go deeper in that regard. As Foretold would be an option if it wasn't so slow w/ the deck being as high CMC as it is. The only other option for mana generating enchantments is Trove of Temptation funnily enough, which might still be good as PWs are going to be attacked anyway. I basically never run Darksteel Ingot as it's a 3 mana rock that only ramps by 1 and w/ basically no extra utility but Indestructible is actually that in this type of deck.
So there is a solid lock to be had if you resolve a few of these and follow it up with a Obliterate, Jokulhaups or even Wildfire.
One possible card to look at is Gush. You can return two Islands in response to your own land destruction spells. Plus Wills [-2] can mean that you can hard-cast it for 2U.
It pretty much is a creature less deck, so I feel like Jhoira, Weatherlight Captain would be a little bit too vulnerable to being removed, and not really setup to abuse her too much as well. Card draw I think is a little less important as we have plenty of PWs who provide adavantage it's more about deploying cards which is the bottle-neck.
Honor-Worn Shaku is interesting, being able to tap planewalkers, which ordinary don't care about tapping, does provide some value. But too be honest, it's really colored mana which is the important factor to this deck. If it provided colored mana, it would be in an auto include.
I'm really looking to build a UR Superfriends with the twins at the helm since I can't run red planeswalkers in my Atraxa, Praetors' Voice build. So I'm really interested in where you take this.
However, I did see a mistake in how you're using Rowan's emblem with Chandra, Torch of Defiance. Her emblem doesn't allow duplicating mana abilities, so Chandra won't give RRRR.
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I'm really looking to build a UR Superfriends with the twins at the helm since I can't run red planeswalkers in my Atraxa, Praetors' Voice build. So I'm really interested in where you take this.
However, I did see a mistake in how you're using Rowan's emblem with Chandra, Torch of Defiance. Her emblem doesn't allow duplicating mana abilities, so Chandra won't give RRRR.
Oh yeah, same with Koths [-2]. Luckily the rest are around untapping things.
I personally think this is the most fun build of Super Friends I've had yet, and it's power level is really good.
I've played a 5-color Super Friends. A Sultai Super Friends. And Atraxa as well. The thing is that often you win through the Doubling Season when in green, and there is only so many times you can do this and not want more of a depth to a game plan, just for variety.
The other thing is you don't need all the colors for thresholds of planewalkers, there is enough quality of power and numbers to be just in..well two colors.
i am trying this deck out, but since i do not have money to buy 300 dollar cards. i have to make some tweaks.
I do wish that you however explained some card choices a bit better. Like why you chose those planewalkers as opposed to not using Chandra, Bold Pyromancer instead of Chandra Pyromancer. While i know what Tamiyo does, her other abilities are a littel sub par in my opinion. Why are you not running the other jaces (mainly beleren)
i am trying this deck out, but since i do not have money to buy 300 dollar cards. i have to make some tweaks.
I do wish that you however explained some card choices a bit better. Like why you chose those planewalkers as opposed to not using Chandra, Bold Pyromancer instead of Chandra Pyromancer. While i know what Tamiyo does, her other abilities are a littel sub par in my opinion. Why are you not running the other jaces (mainly beleren)
I'll give you a run down of the Planeswalker choices. It is important to note, that you don't want too many PWs in well any deck in my opinion, as you can get flooded out with them, being as that you want to have opportunities to get multiple uses out of them (i.e. opponents don't have creatures to simply kill them). Otherwise they just turn into a 5 mana sorcery to draw a card in a lot of cases.
Also you have two planewalkers as your commander, so already you have PW options as the game goes on, so flooding on them is something that you want to avoid. So keeping the number to a certain amount is important.
The 3 important factors are;
1) General abilities work with the other content of the deck.
2) Emblem or ultimate which works with the other cards in the deck or just a straight out win condition.
3) Extra value off Rowan emblem. Extra value off Will emblem.
So I'll add the PWs that I considered to start off with (besides the one included in the deck).
Chandra, Bold Pyromancer
The problem is that [-3] and [-7] are really too weak in this deck. The [+1] is perfect for the deck theme, but I've found it hard to justify when the quality of the other PWs are just better.
Chandra, the Firebrand
This actually not bad the [-3] is potent with extra turn cards and the [-6] is relevant to potentially clearing the board of creatures. But they are not game ending things, and the {+1] is pretty much a dead ability. You are hoping that when you plus a PWs ability that you get ahead on resources and this one isn't doing enough.
Daretti, Scrap Savant
Not quite enough synergy with artifacts in the deck to make this guy really good. But honestly you could play him for the filtering alone, and he wouldn't be bad. But you would just have to work in a little bit more to make this guy worthwhile.
Jace Beleren
Was a very close call, was in the original list, but I just felt that the ultimate doesn't do anything for us, and there is enough card draw in the deck. It's about deploying the cards you have already have in hand, which is the bottleneck, rather than draw.
Jace, Cunning Castaway
I actually really thought hard on this one, even though the [+1] is pretty much a dead ability. If you can get Rowan emblem, then you can get an out-of-control setup with his [-5]. Imagine just spending two turns plusing him for no value, but then you get to make 4 Jaces with Rowan emblem. You can create Illusions to block with and look to build up one of the others to do the [-5] again. It can cascade pretty quickly. So I do think he is better than you expect in this deck potentially. But simply because the [+1] is pretty bad in this deck, couldn't warrant a slot.
Jace, Ingenious Mind-Mage
He is fine, but at 6 mana for basically drawing a card, there are better options. Ultimate is pretty weak.
Jace, Memory Adept
This guy is pretty close to being included. The ultimate is actually pretty good, like you should be able to setup a win from that position most times.
At this stage is probably good to explain why a card like Karn, Scion of Urza was chosen over this? On the surface Jace, Memory Adept seems to be a bit more consistent. Well it's mainly due to Will Kenrith [-2] ability and the color requirements of spells.
It just much harder to get the UU rather than colorless. You can use Koth of the Hammer and Chandra, Torch of Defiance mana abilities to cast Karn, Scion of Urza. With Rowans emblem or Cloudstone Curio there is a knock on effect where the colorless planewalkers can be cast more easily.
Jace, the Living Guildpact
The [+1] doesn't actually draw you the card. The ultimate is a win condition, but you need the card advantage to warrant a slot.
Jaya Ballard
Pretty interesting actually, but unfortunately the RRR isn't quite what you want for the mainly blue spells in the deck. But the ultimate is the real deal with extra turn cards. This PW should be on people include list if you did end up playing a few extra of the mass destruction cards like Wildfire. The filter ability is also better than you think.
There is definitely a build where you could have Daretti, Scrap Savant as well and work in graveyard a bit more. Go for a bit more land destruction, and lean on artifacts for mana a bit more.
Saheeli Rai
The [-2] would be awesome to copy a Gilded Lotus. With Cloudstone Curio you could get infinites, and Rowan emblem would be great as well to get an extra copy. However it's so situational on having particular cards. Close call however.
Running some more PWs in the deck is not incorrect. But I personally just being disciplined for the reason I stated of flooding when play them can be situational.
But if somebody was to play more I'd certainly would like to know how that goes for them.
To explain some of the inclusions over the ones I listed above:
Chandra, Pyromaster
The [+1] is a dead ability for sure, but I do like the [0] ability for card advantage. The ultimate is game winning if you hit an extra turn card.
So this would be a good time to compare it to something similar like Jace, Unraveler of Secrets.
The main advantage is the fact that Chandra, Torch of Defiance and Koth of the Hammer can be used to cast it, especially with Will Kenrith [-2].
Jace, Architect of Thought
Costs 4 mana rather than 5 that the other Jaces mostly are. Provides some protection. The ultimate can really setup wins.
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Not amazing, but again the 4 cost rather than 5, edges him out over other Jaces. But the ultimate only gets one player. Luckily enough different abilities to be good enough. Pretty nice with Rowan emblem, where you get to basically draw 4 cards and put 2 cards from hand on library with [0] ability. That is real card advantage.
Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
I do actually think that she is strong in the deck. You can use Rowan [+2] ability, and then potential cast Tamiyo and use her [-2] ability to draw a bunch of cards, as it forced your opponent to tap all their creatures. Then obviously her ultimate is game ending. Her [+1] can help with protection.
Karn, Scion of Urza, Karn Liberated, Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
All these guys are not overly impressive in this deck, but the colorless aspect is really key for some combo turns.
Ugin ultimate is the real deal however, as I often look to this in Super Friends decks to flood the board with my planeswalkers.
So I probably being a little bit too focused on cards like Cloudstone Curio, but I really wanted it to stand out a little from the normal Super Friends fare.
True, tamiyo's emblem and any extra turn spell (aside form ones that shuffle into your deck (Beacon of tomorrows) or one that exile themselves (Expropriate) plus Omniscience is infinite turns.
I need to get ugin, i have scion and see little need for liberated. I mean i guess his +1 and -3 are good and all, but i am not about to spend 100 bucks on him. (ugin is still 45 and thus still appealing)
I think i will still run bold pyromancer, Her -7 is niche only. Downfall is that you need to activate Will twice to have her recast herself. (unless you have Rowan's emblem. Geeze rowan's emblem is pretty key in this deck.
Issue with Scion of urza is while he does give card advantage the secondary ability can be a problem. I would not want to get both cloudstone curio and The chain veil and then have karn killed before i can bring the one with a silver counter into play. Granted that is not the most likely of scenarios, but i can see to many times when i get two cards i want and end up losing one due to an attack at karn.
EDIT: Mu Yanling may be something to add to the deck. (I am buying the duel deck anyway to add to my battelbox.) And we need a blue PW that adds UU to the mana pool as a [+] ability.
True, tamiyo's emblem and any extra turn spell (aside form ones that shuffle into your deck (Beacon of tomorrows) or one that exile themselves (Expropriate) plus Omniscience is infinite turns.
I need to get ugin, i have scion and see little need for liberated. I mean i guess his +1 and -3 are good and all, but i am not about to spend 100 bucks on him. (ugin is still 45 and thus still appealing)
I think i will still run bold pyromancer, Her -7 is niche only. Downfall is that you need to activate Will twice to have her recast herself. (unless you have Rowan's emblem. Geeze rowan's emblem is pretty key in this deck.
Issue with Scion of urza is while he does give card advantage the secondary ability can be a problem. I would not want to get both cloudstone curio and The chain veil and then have karn killed before i can bring the one with a silver counter into play. Granted that is not the most likely of scenarios, but i can see to many times when i get two cards i want and end up losing one due to an attack at karn.
EDIT: Mu Yanling may be something to add to the deck. (I am buying the duel deck anyway to add to my battelbox.) And we need a blue PW that adds UU to the mana pool as a [+] ability.
Yeah Rowan emblem just does so much. I've decided that it's probably correct to run Rings of Brighthearth as a partial backup plan. Not nearly as good as it requires mana, so some of the infinites I've mentioned with Rowan emblem are not the same. But you can still get great value once you have a bit of mana freed up and it still leads to some infinites.
That's a fair call on Karn, Scion of Urza. He is actually a bit slow with card advantage, and it is possible to lose a key card. And the reality is that the [-2] is pretty mediocre in the deck.
With Chandra, Bold Pyromancer you can use her [-3] to finish off a creature that Rowan [-2] didn't quite kill. Her mana ability is exactly what we want for the theme of the deck.
I was Saying Mu Yanling could be interesting, The UU producing PW was not related. I am saying we need to get one printed. (but probably never will. Blue is not great at ramp.)
You should keep voltaic key. With rowan emblem it goes infinite mana with any mana rock that produces 2 or more. (Sol ring, Mana crypt, Mana vault, Grim monolith. (Grim goes infinite by itself with rowan and thus does not need voltaic key) Basalt monolith (Goes infinite with rings or rowan's emblem) Thran Dynamo, Gilded lotus.)
Yea bold pyromancer can finish off someone that Rowan does not. But again it is her [+1] i like
Also one chain veil activation, will [-2], Cloudstone and Torch of defiance or Koth is a game winner. Infinit mana and Bold deal damage for every activation. So you put her in, cast her ability twice deal 4 damage, rotate to one of the others and repeat.
While you have very few PWs they are really good in unison with each other. I never though i would play a PW deck that did not run green (doubling season), but here I am loving this.
I am also running clever impersonator and Copy enchantment, just in case i play someone who is playing doubling season or something else that i may want to make a copy of. (i may remove copy enchantment as it is not the best card in my version, it is a slot filler for now. I may go shopping sometime during teh day tomorrow and pick up dinner on my way home.)
Karn Scion of Urza is a win condition, his Constructs get out of hand fast especially doubled. He's also fantastic powered out early.
Something I've been thinking about is Stasis there's a variety of PWs (Tezzeret, Koth, Ral) that can keep it up indefinitely by plussing.
You're not wrong, but you are also not right. In this deck however, you are wrong. I mean I am gonna leave him in for now since i need slot holders, so there is that. But in the end, he may prove to be a waste, or maybe you are right Maybe i tend to have enough artifacts out every game to make his [-2] playable.
stasis is a thought i had and in my first variation of Superfriends it was a combo piece. this however seems to not need it.
W/ just a 2 other mana rocks Karn spits out 3/3s if you have a Rowan Emblem 2 that pump each other, you're likely to hit for 10 the next turn. It's a fast clock and also a huge wall.
Anyway I adjusted my build today w/ including the indestructible lands and mana rock as well as As Foretold and am very happy w/ the changes. As expected As Foretold doesn't cast many things but it's fantastic w/ Obliterate, ended up cutting Ruination which I'm still conflicted over.
Once again Will has shown himself to be the support to getting an Emblem w/ Rowan, which then makes the deck play on a whole different level. Fetchlands become ramp! I don't even try to go for Will's emblem anymore.
CRAP, forgot that fetch lands would grab 2 lands. (temped to put in Grixis Panorama. Along with teramorphic and his borther, just to get the ramp effect. Maybe i am looking too much into it.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
These are such fresh new cards on the scene that if you have any ideas on the multitude of options available please leave a post
I've only just scratched the surface with these two. I feel like there are going to be a lot more broken things that can be done, but I'm sure the community is still figuring things out.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
I've struggled to find this creature base so far, but I'm sure it will unfold over time. I think you're mainly looking for converted-mana-cost 5 or less, so that you can cast Rowan on curve. If people have cards that they think would be great at blocking please suggest.
This way you can have less focus on creature removal, and there will be more consistency with having creatures to protect at least Rowan and Will.
Because I have a focused game plan on using Nevinyrral's Disk, Jokulhaups, Obliterate as ways to gain huge advantages, this is why my deck is almost creatureless.
These are cards I've found to support the ability "During target player's next turn, each creature that player controls attacks if able."
Time of Ice
Dream Tides
Mudslide
Meekstone
Domineering Will
Aetherize
Ætherspouts
Illusionist's Gambit
Keep Watch
Márton Stromgald
Portal Mage
Cards to support the ability "deals 3 damage to each tapped creature target player controls."
Opposition
Turnabout
Urabrask the Hidden
Aboshan, Cephalid Emperor
Static Orb
Fumiko the Lowblood
Disciple of the Ring
Guardian of Tazeem
Icefall Regent
Ixidron
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Well I've been exploring Rowan Kenrith emblem more, and I've been figuring out a lot of powerful plays you can do, and adjusted the deck accordling. I've picked cards that slot into the deck without losing too much quality on the rest of the deck without the emblem.
But because you can potentially get the emblem naturally within 3 turns of her being in play, it is a solid game plan. Also Deepglow Skate can get you the emblem straight away. The extra turn cards also really help to make it possible to get her and Will's emblems.
Her emblem allows you to get infinite colorless mana with Grim Monolith.
With Voltaic Key and an artifact that produce two or more mana, you can get infinite mana. You can use one activation to untap itself and the other to untap the mana rock. Gilded Lotus and Pyramid of the Pantheon will get you infinite colored mana. Mana Crypt, Sol Ring, Mana Vault, will get you infinite colorless.
Note that Izzet Signet will not get you any infinite mana, but you can use it to get colored mana through the colorless fore-mentioned artifacts, as a means of filtering.
Sensei's Divining Top can be used to basically draw a card, for as many times as you want to recast it for 1, as it will activate the draw twice, it'll go back on top of library, and then because you're drawing two card you'll draw it again. I don't have it in the deck, because already have enough draw effects, and not enough other uses for Top, other than a handful of shuffle effects.
Aphetto Alchemist is the same as Voltaic Key in that it can untap itself and a mana rock. Note this guy can be used with artifacts that only produce one mana for infinite.
You can also get infinite turns with Magosi, the Waterveil and Deserted Temple with her emblem.
You can get infinite U with either Minamo, School at Water's Edge or Deserted Temple and Teferi's Isle.
You can get infinite UR with Izzet Boilerworks and Deserted Temple.
All the lands that search for lands will get you double value. So you will be able to get two lands each time, and with Myriad Landscape you will be getting four.
With the emblem, Tolaria West will allow you to get whatever two combo lands you want to win.
You'll be able to use Maze of Ith or Spires of Orazca on two creatures.
If you have Deserted Temple as well, you can remove as many creatures from combat for each 1 you can pay.
An Azcanta, the Sunken Ruin activation will be more like casting a Dig Through Time, as you get to do it twice.
Then for the coup de grace, untap with either Minamo, School at Water's Edge or Deserted Temple which will have two activation's meaning that you can untap Azcanta twice, allowing you to essentially all up look at the top 24 cards of your library and put a selection of 6 of those non-creature non-land cards into your hand. This is all for 6UUUU plus the mentioned lands tapping.
Probably a more likely and less greedy play is to spend 4UU for a look at top 16 cards for 4 cards into hand.
You can see that her emblem can turn your land base into win conditions which is very powerful.
With the emblem, Tolaria West or Expedition Map will allow you to get whatever two combo lands you want to win.
Added
+ Voltaic Key
+ Minamo, School at Water's Edge
+ Magosi, the Waterveil
+ Teferi's Isle
+ Deserted Temple
+ Tolaria West
+ Izzet Boilerworks
+ Field of Ruin
+ Maze of Ith
+ Thaumatic Compass
+ Expedition Map
Removed
- Mizzix's Mastery
- Rhystic Study
- Dig Through Time
- Ancient Tomb
- 6 x Island
- Mountain
I wanted more PW protection, so the lands Maze of Ith and Spires of Orazca off Thaumatic Compass can really help.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
I do have the Jokulhaups and Obliterate for this type of plan, but you could go much deeper into it, but I'm into more interaction games, more fun shall we say.
Then you just combine Will & Rowan to keep clearing the first lots of creatures that keep hitting the board. A very powerful archetype in my opinion.
As far as your deck Schreckstoff the only changes I would make off-the-bat is:
Molten Disaster => Fault Line - instant removal is so much better as you can do it before your turn to setup casting your planewalkers.
Any land => Strip Mine - you have the Crucible of Worlds, so really you should leverage this.
Primal Amulet and Metallurgic Summonings are not looking amazing in this deck. You have a 25% instant and sorcery spell ratio, so these cards will be a little slow. Not unplayable, but will not be as good as you will hope.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Alright had to remove an Island, but the reality is that I'm really on 33 lands, because I consider Maze of Ith to be a spell. Probably should really take out another card and leave in the Island, but all the cards in the deck are so sweet, just can't decide on one, lol.
I put in The Locust God, over Creepy Doll. I think going wide is going to help more with protecting PWs, even though it's a turn slower.
Added
+ The Locust God
Removed
- Creepy Doll
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
But I have kept coming back to it going "hmmm, should I play it?", trying to convince myself. It might be better to play it over say Karn Liberated. Sure Karns [-3] is good in a pinch, but the other abilities are not really want you want to be doing in multiplayer.
Honestly I've probably convinced myself to give it a go over Karn.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Mana Vault, Grim Monolith, The Chain Veil, Teferi, Temporal Archmage, Island, Bloodstained Mire, Voltaic Key.
So I had a second turn win with Teferi, Temporal Archmage and The Chain Veil, but the thing was the I didn't play it out because I wanted to test MY actual deck
But Teferi, Temporal Archmage is the best mana producing planewalker, so get your grubby hands on a copy and you can ask for forgiveness at a later date to still get through those pearly gates.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
I had this pile; Null Rod, Shatterstorm, Pulverize, Energy Flux.
Because I actually had in the back of my mind, how to make these two work as an actual alternative to Teferi.
So you could make a Stax deck, which is artifact light, which looks to punish artifact centric decks, like Teferi.
Combine this with a couple more of the mass land destruction cards, and you can really make a case for being legitimate alternative to Teferi as planewalker as commander.
Now I wanted to make a more fun deck, and really wanted to play with their abilities (outright learn what's possible) and also Super Friends just has more variance, so I consider it way more enjoyable to a Stax strategy.
But this mass removal on all fronts build is there to be had. You play only a select few planewalkers, and go for the heavy artifact removal, and incorporate cost more cards (Stax), and then use Wills ability to neutralize creatures, and then cost reduction for the mass removal, and it could be top-tiered. Combine that with Rowan being able to also deal with creatures and you can get mid-range control, that can potential hose artifact decks, like Teferi.
[EDIT]
Oboro, Palace in the Clouds is a card that works with returning before a mass land destruction spell.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
So there is a solid lock to be had if you resolve a few of these and follow it up with a Obliterate, Jokulhaups or even Wildfire.
One possible card to look at is Gush. You can return two Islands in response to your own land destruction spells. Plus Wills [-2] can mean that you can hard-cast it for 2U.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Honor-Worn Shaku is interesting, being able to tap planewalkers, which ordinary don't care about tapping, does provide some value. But too be honest, it's really colored mana which is the important factor to this deck. If it provided colored mana, it would be in an auto include.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
However, I did see a mistake in how you're using Rowan's emblem with Chandra, Torch of Defiance. Her emblem doesn't allow duplicating mana abilities, so Chandra won't give RRRR.
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I personally think this is the most fun build of Super Friends I've had yet, and it's power level is really good.
I've played a 5-color Super Friends. A Sultai Super Friends. And Atraxa as well. The thing is that often you win through the Doubling Season when in green, and there is only so many times you can do this and not want more of a depth to a game plan, just for variety.
The other thing is you don't need all the colors for thresholds of planewalkers, there is enough quality of power and numbers to be just in..well two colors.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
I do wish that you however explained some card choices a bit better. Like why you chose those planewalkers as opposed to not using Chandra, Bold Pyromancer instead of Chandra Pyromancer. While i know what Tamiyo does, her other abilities are a littel sub par in my opinion. Why are you not running the other jaces (mainly beleren)
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
Also you have two planewalkers as your commander, so already you have PW options as the game goes on, so flooding on them is something that you want to avoid. So keeping the number to a certain amount is important.
The 3 important factors are;
1) General abilities work with the other content of the deck.
2) Emblem or ultimate which works with the other cards in the deck or just a straight out win condition.
3) Extra value off Rowan emblem. Extra value off Will emblem.
So I'll add the PWs that I considered to start off with (besides the one included in the deck).
Chandra, Bold Pyromancer
The problem is that [-3] and [-7] are really too weak in this deck. The [+1] is perfect for the deck theme, but I've found it hard to justify when the quality of the other PWs are just better.
Chandra, the Firebrand
This actually not bad the [-3] is potent with extra turn cards and the [-6] is relevant to potentially clearing the board of creatures. But they are not game ending things, and the {+1] is pretty much a dead ability. You are hoping that when you plus a PWs ability that you get ahead on resources and this one isn't doing enough.
Daretti, Scrap Savant
Not quite enough synergy with artifacts in the deck to make this guy really good. But honestly you could play him for the filtering alone, and he wouldn't be bad. But you would just have to work in a little bit more to make this guy worthwhile.
Jace Beleren
Was a very close call, was in the original list, but I just felt that the ultimate doesn't do anything for us, and there is enough card draw in the deck. It's about deploying the cards you have already have in hand, which is the bottleneck, rather than draw.
Jace, Cunning Castaway
I actually really thought hard on this one, even though the [+1] is pretty much a dead ability. If you can get Rowan emblem, then you can get an out-of-control setup with his [-5]. Imagine just spending two turns plusing him for no value, but then you get to make 4 Jaces with Rowan emblem. You can create Illusions to block with and look to build up one of the others to do the [-5] again. It can cascade pretty quickly. So I do think he is better than you expect in this deck potentially. But simply because the [+1] is pretty bad in this deck, couldn't warrant a slot.
Jace, Ingenious Mind-Mage
He is fine, but at 6 mana for basically drawing a card, there are better options. Ultimate is pretty weak.
Jace, Memory Adept
This guy is pretty close to being included. The ultimate is actually pretty good, like you should be able to setup a win from that position most times.
At this stage is probably good to explain why a card like Karn, Scion of Urza was chosen over this? On the surface Jace, Memory Adept seems to be a bit more consistent. Well it's mainly due to Will Kenrith [-2] ability and the color requirements of spells.
It just much harder to get the UU rather than colorless. You can use Koth of the Hammer and Chandra, Torch of Defiance mana abilities to cast Karn, Scion of Urza. With Rowans emblem or Cloudstone Curio there is a knock on effect where the colorless planewalkers can be cast more easily.
Jace, the Living Guildpact
The [+1] doesn't actually draw you the card. The ultimate is a win condition, but you need the card advantage to warrant a slot.
Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
Similar to Jace, Memory Adept, pretty close to being good enough, but just because I don't want to flood on PWs, didn't make the final cut.
Jaya Ballard
Pretty interesting actually, but unfortunately the RRR isn't quite what you want for the mainly blue spells in the deck. But the ultimate is the real deal with extra turn cards. This PW should be on people include list if you did end up playing a few extra of the mass destruction cards like Wildfire. The filter ability is also better than you think.
There is definitely a build where you could have Daretti, Scrap Savant as well and work in graveyard a bit more. Go for a bit more land destruction, and lean on artifacts for mana a bit more.
Saheeli Rai
The [-2] would be awesome to copy a Gilded Lotus. With Cloudstone Curio you could get infinites, and Rowan emblem would be great as well to get an extra copy. However it's so situational on having particular cards. Close call however.
Running some more PWs in the deck is not incorrect. But I personally just being disciplined for the reason I stated of flooding when play them can be situational.
But if somebody was to play more I'd certainly would like to know how that goes for them.
To explain some of the inclusions over the ones I listed above:
Chandra, Pyromaster
The [+1] is a dead ability for sure, but I do like the [0] ability for card advantage. The ultimate is game winning if you hit an extra turn card.
So this would be a good time to compare it to something similar like Jace, Unraveler of Secrets.
The main advantage is the fact that Chandra, Torch of Defiance and Koth of the Hammer can be used to cast it, especially with Will Kenrith [-2].
Jace, Architect of Thought
Costs 4 mana rather than 5 that the other Jaces mostly are. Provides some protection. The ultimate can really setup wins.
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Not amazing, but again the 4 cost rather than 5, edges him out over other Jaces. But the ultimate only gets one player. Luckily enough different abilities to be good enough. Pretty nice with Rowan emblem, where you get to basically draw 4 cards and put 2 cards from hand on library with [0] ability. That is real card advantage.
Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
I do actually think that she is strong in the deck. You can use Rowan [+2] ability, and then potential cast Tamiyo and use her [-2] ability to draw a bunch of cards, as it forced your opponent to tap all their creatures. Then obviously her ultimate is game ending. Her [+1] can help with protection.
Karn, Scion of Urza, Karn Liberated, Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
All these guys are not overly impressive in this deck, but the colorless aspect is really key for some combo turns.
Ugin ultimate is the real deal however, as I often look to this in Super Friends decks to flood the board with my planeswalkers.
So I probably being a little bit too focused on cards like Cloudstone Curio, but I really wanted it to stand out a little from the normal Super Friends fare.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
I need to get ugin, i have scion and see little need for liberated. I mean i guess his +1 and -3 are good and all, but i am not about to spend 100 bucks on him. (ugin is still 45 and thus still appealing)
I think i will still run bold pyromancer, Her -7 is niche only. Downfall is that you need to activate Will twice to have her recast herself. (unless you have Rowan's emblem. Geeze rowan's emblem is pretty key in this deck.
Issue with Scion of urza is while he does give card advantage the secondary ability can be a problem. I would not want to get both cloudstone curio and The chain veil and then have karn killed before i can bring the one with a silver counter into play. Granted that is not the most likely of scenarios, but i can see to many times when i get two cards i want and end up losing one due to an attack at karn.
EDIT: Mu Yanling may be something to add to the deck. (I am buying the duel deck anyway to add to my battelbox.) And we need a blue PW that adds UU to the mana pool as a [+] ability.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
Yeah Rowan emblem just does so much. I've decided that it's probably correct to run Rings of Brighthearth as a partial backup plan. Not nearly as good as it requires mana, so some of the infinites I've mentioned with Rowan emblem are not the same. But you can still get great value once you have a bit of mana freed up and it still leads to some infinites.
That's a fair call on Karn, Scion of Urza. He is actually a bit slow with card advantage, and it is possible to lose a key card. And the reality is that the [-2] is pretty mediocre in the deck.
With Chandra, Bold Pyromancer you can use her [-3] to finish off a creature that Rowan [-2] didn't quite kill. Her mana ability is exactly what we want for the theme of the deck.
What do you mean UU with Mu Yanling?
Added
+ Chandra, Bold Pyromancer
+ Rings of Brighthearth
Removed
- Karn, Scion of Urza
- Voltaic Key
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
You should keep voltaic key. With rowan emblem it goes infinite mana with any mana rock that produces 2 or more. (Sol ring, Mana crypt, Mana vault, Grim monolith. (Grim goes infinite by itself with rowan and thus does not need voltaic key) Basalt monolith (Goes infinite with rings or rowan's emblem) Thran Dynamo, Gilded lotus.)
Yea bold pyromancer can finish off someone that Rowan does not. But again it is her [+1] i like
Also one chain veil activation, will [-2], Cloudstone and Torch of defiance or Koth is a game winner. Infinit mana and Bold deal damage for every activation. So you put her in, cast her ability twice deal 4 damage, rotate to one of the others and repeat.
While you have very few PWs they are really good in unison with each other. I never though i would play a PW deck that did not run green (doubling season), but here I am loving this.
I am also running clever impersonator and Copy enchantment, just in case i play someone who is playing doubling season or something else that i may want to make a copy of. (i may remove copy enchantment as it is not the best card in my version, it is a slot filler for now. I may go shopping sometime during teh day tomorrow and pick up dinner on my way home.)
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
stasis is a thought i had and in my first variation of Superfriends it was a combo piece. this however seems to not need it.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
CRAP, forgot that fetch lands would grab 2 lands. (temped to put in Grixis Panorama. Along with teramorphic and his borther, just to get the ramp effect. Maybe i am looking too much into it.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist