I haven't played it in about a month now. Basically I turned it more and more into a pure Sunforger deck each time I played it, so it not really a pure Firesong and Sunspeaker deck that others might build around more.
So just looking at my current deck and it has these changes;
I actually play a Boros control deck with no creatures and I feel that there are some very powerful cards that get overlooked because it's not easy to see how they all work together at first.
First off Orim's Chant is massively underrated. This card has won me more games than I can count.
Second, Repercussion is extremely powerful. Repercussion and Blasphemous Act can literally one shot all your opponents on the same turn if you let them set up properly.
I use a strategy where I play Mana Flare, Howling Mine, Helm of Awakening, let my opponents get out a bunch of creatures tap out and then use Repercussions to one hit kill them. Or I make them draw a bunch of cards and play Molten Psyche (which is surprisingly good in Boros) with a damage doubler and hit everyone of huge amounts of damage.
If you combine Repercussion with any thing that doubles damage, you actually do 4 x damage to the creatures controllers, and kill their creatures at the same time. So if you cast a lighting bolt for one mana, hit a creature for 6, and then the creatures controller for 12. Then you fork it. And hit a second creature, you just did 24 damage for 3 mana, killing two creatures.
Æther Flash with Repercussion and a damage doubler will keep almost all creatures off the board, and do 8 damage to the creature's controller every time they cast a creature spell.
Powerstone Minefield and a damage doubler can really reduce your chances of being attacked.
Reverse Damage and damage redirection cards are highly underrated. When someone swings for 21 commander damage and you have Furnace of Rath out, and redirect it back to them, then it's a one shot. Or you gain 10 life when they thought you were going to die and then on your turn board wipe, now the game is reset.
That's just my two cents. In Boros control creatures matter very little as you should be blowing up the board all the time, so you are better off setting up ways to one shot opponents, with damage doublers, Forks and Repercussion with cards like Chain Reaction.
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I think I'm actually going to load my deck up with every red card that doubles damage. Play two damage doublers (for 4x damage), play Sunforger, play the commander and Sunforge into Warleader's Helix, do 40 damage to one opponent, then fork it. And if you know someone's holding counter spells you would cast Orim's Chant on them first, many people don't see a one shot coming in a Red White deck, and don't realize how much damage you can easily do, as no one plays Boros control.
I actually play a Boros control deck with no creatures and I feel that there are some very powerful cards that get overlooked because it's not easy to see how they all work together at first.
First off Orim's Chant is massively underrated. This card has won me more games than I can count.
Second, Repercussion is extremely powerful. Repercussion and Blasphemous Act can literally one shot all your opponents on the same turn if you let them set up properly.
I use a strategy where I play Mana Flare, Howling Mine, Helm of Awakening, let my opponents get out a bunch of creatures tap out and then use Repercussions to one hit kill them. Or I make them draw a bunch of cards and play Molten Psyche (which is surprisingly good in Boros) with a damage doubler and hit everyone of huge amounts of damage.
If you combine Repercussion with any thing that doubles damage, you actually do 4 x damage to the creatures controllers, and kill their creatures at the same time. So if you cast a lighting bolt for one mana, hit a creature for 6, and then the creatures controller for 12. Then you fork it. And hit a second creature, you just did 24 damage for 3 mana, killing two creatures.
Æther Flash with Repercussion and a damage doubler will keep almost all creatures off the board, and do 8 damage to the creature's controller every time they cast a creature spell.
Powerstone Minefield and a damage doubler can really reduce your chances of being attacked.
Reverse Damage and damage redirection cards are highly underrated. When someone swings for 21 commander damage and you have Furnace of Rath out, and redirect it back to them, then it's a one shot. Or you gain 10 life when they thought you were going to die and then on your turn board wipe, now the game is reset.
That's just my two cents. In Boros control creatures matter very little as you should be blowing up the board all the time, so you are better off setting up ways to one shot opponents, with damage doublers, Forks and Repercussion with cards like Chain Reaction.
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I think I'm actually going to load my deck up with every red card that doubles damage. Play two damage doublers (for 4x damage), play Sunforger, play the commander and Sunforge into Warleader's Helix, do 40 damage to one opponent, then fork it. And if you know someone's holding counter spells you would cast Orim's Chant on them first, many people don't see a one shot coming in a Red White deck, and don't realize how much damage you can easily do, as no one plays Boros control.
Oh wow, Repercussion is the secret sauce I've been looking for.
The game that go the best is when opponents set up with heaps of creatures that are not necessarily pressuring you and then you do a massive Chain Reaction or Blasphemous Act and literally gain a hundred or even two hundred or more life. Then you just have this massive cushion that you can sit on. But Repercussion actually gives you a win con with that.
I know what you mean, like you are just happy that people are playing creatures out, and you start counting them, like "play more, play more please". So I can understand the hug deck style with Howling Mine and Mana Flare. But I think because the deck is so slow to start with, not helping opponents gives you some breathing space to keep on top of whats going on, rather than just getting combo winned out.
I do play Silence in the deck, but I can see having Orim's Chant as an alternative or as well of.
Blaze Commando has turned out to be actual factual terrible in my deck. Just not enough instants and soceries dealing damage to get value out of the guy at 5 mana. Young Peezy at least only cost two mana. Honestly I never got any tokens out of Blaze Commando because I couldn't cast it in a timely manner.
The hug strategy works very well in Boros, you might think you need to buy time, but really the doubling the mana and extra card draw allows you to set up very quickly and then control the whole game. People started blowing up those two cards as soon as I would play them after they played the deck, because they realized that I got way more advantage then they did, because I could lay down several damage doublers and then one shot everyone if I had the cards and enough mana.
I also have pretty much every card draw artifact and land in that deck, I really like one's that let everyone draw though. You can never have too much stuff to blow up. You also have to play like a hug deck and be very political, to ensure whoever is about to combo out get's stopped, in many cases this is you just whipping the board to the appreciation of everyone that wasn't going to combo out. Board wipes that do damage are much better than those that do not by the way.
This is the deck I had where Reliquary Tower was very good, as I would want to accumulate as many cards in my hand as fast as I could. Then cast all win condition cards in one turn.
Oh nothing really. Originally I was going to put a Wildfire in the deck, but didn't, then I didn't removed the Flagstones of Trokair. Just an alternative to a Plains, only downside would be Land Tax, but otherwise good against land destruction.
Well I created my own version which relies heavily on wheel effects. I tried your version first, but it was too slow, so took out all the equipment stuff and replaced it with wheel effects and ways to get mana. it's been working pretty well so far. Once game I was able to copy Mizzix's Mastery with two Wheel cards in my grave, so that I built up a huge second grave for the copy of Mizzix's Mastery, ended up casting over 20 spells, lots of fun.
I will need to post my deck list up one of these days, what's the best way to post a deck list on this site?
Deck looks great! I alluded to the fact that I've not gone down the path of big spell slinger, as I felt that Neheb, the Eternal is just better at that sort of strategy.
The changes I would make are simply adding more lands. I'd easily go up to 34, but I personally would play 35 probably 36 in your deck.
Easy cuts for land in my opinion; Contemplation Plea for Guidance Orim's Chant Sentinel Tower
Great deck, by the way! Although, how does it run with so few lands? Do you hit any snags?
EDIT:
You guys have inspired me to do a Boros control / reanimator / spellslinger deck with this minotaur couple at the helm. When I'm finished drafting a list I'll be sure to post it!
My YouTube Channel: The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
A bit inspired by darrenhabib and Andrew O., here's a rundown on some of my choices:
Sometimes you'll face off against similar decks that are light on creatures. That's not good if you're working on getting life and giving damage depending on their creatures (especially with Repercussion in play). That's why I added Forbidden Orchard and Benevolent Offering; gotta make sure your opponents have creatures for cards like Blasphemous Act and Chain Reaction.
Sometimes you'll have a game against a voltron commander or are gonna get smacked by a Blightsteel Colossus. Having Comeuppance in the deck is great against this because casting it in response will have that opponent kill himself/herself in one swing similar to how they expected to that to you. Not only that, sometimes you might get attacked by a huge swarm and don't have Repercussion in play in order to take advantage of Chain Reaction. Just sunforger for Comeuppance instead. Comeuppance also goes great against an opponent playing a similar strategy with spellsling or just casting huge X spells like Rolling Earthquake, Comet Storm, etc.
I'm running Flagstones of Trokair for the nonbasic hate. If it gets destroyed then it can tutor for Mistveil Plains. I don't see why I shouldn't run it considering it gives colored mana and doesn't enter the battlefield tapped.
Since the deck is basically a RWSunforger deck, lots of tutoring for Sunforger and lots of wheels. In order to take advantage of this I'm running Replenish. Let's say you do dig deep enough to get Sunforger, but all your key enchantments are in the graveyard. Don't sweat it, just sunforger for Replenish. Along the same vein I'm running Elixir of Immortality to save my graveyard, just in case. Thanks to Sunforger and recurring spells it's very easy to abuse cards like Elixir of Immortality. So it's good to keep it around just in case. Along that vein, Pull from Eternity's included in case Sunforger gets exiled, which is iteself sunforgeable just in case any other key cards are exiled and you want to recover them to the graveyard.
I chose Cleansing Meditation as my enchantment hater because it's very easy to get threshold in this deck so you're able to save your own enchantments in case you have to wipe the board of your opponents'. Even if you do end up wiping your own enchantments for lack of threshold, you can recover them later on with Replenish.
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A bit inspired by darrenhabib and Andrew O., here's a rundown on some of my choices:
Sometimes you'll face off against similar decks that are light on creatures. That's not good if you're working on getting life and giving damage depending on their creatures (especially with Repercussion in play). That's why I added Forbidden Orchard and Benevolent Offering; gotta make sure your opponents have creatures for cards like Blasphemous Act and Chain Reaction.
Great call. A lot of the successful games come down to waiting for enough creatures on the battlefield to make your damage dealing spells effective. I'm quite often patiently waiting for at least a few more creatures to hit the battlefield before I want to use Blasphemous Act and Chain Reaction. So will definitely add Forbidden Orchard to my deck.
Although I love original concepts, this will be super hard to pull off. It has a lot of moving parts.You specifically need RW (Sunforger) and W (Mistveil Plains), so only Coveted Jewel, Gilded Lotus will do the colored portion. But then you also need 3 to untap the Mistveil Plains and you also need 3 to reequip the Sunforger.
Sometimes you'll have a game against a voltron commander or are gonna get smacked by a Blightsteel Colossus. Having Comeuppance in the deck is great against this because casting it in response will have that opponent kill himself/herself in one swing similar to how they expected to that to you. Not only that, sometimes you might get attacked by a huge swarm and don't have Repercussion in play in order to take advantage of Chain Reaction. Just sunforger for Comeuppance instead. Comeuppance also goes great against an opponent playing a similar strategy with spellsling or just casting huge X spells like Rolling Earthquake, Comet Storm, etc.
I do have a deck with Comeuppance and when it's good, it's really good. Basically you can consider this commanders Settle the Wreckage. I've found Settle the Wreckage unplayable in multiplayer commander, as it just gives too much of an advantage with basic lands, so Comeuppance is the better card for dealing with opponents attacks.
Since the deck is basically a RWSunforger deck, lots of tutoring for Sunforger and lots of wheels. In order to take advantage of this I'm running Replenish. Let's say you do dig deep enough to get Sunforger, but all your key enchantments are in the graveyard. Don't sweat it, just sunforger for Replenish. Along the same vein I'm running Elixir of Immortality to save my graveyard, just in case. Thanks to Sunforger and recurring spells it's very easy to abuse cards like Elixir of Immortality. So it's good to keep it around just in case. Along that vein, Pull from Eternity's included in case Sunforger gets exiled, which is iteself sunforgeable just in case any other key cards are exiled and you want to recover them to the graveyard.
Well you do need more creatures in the deck for Sunforger. I have 15 creatures, plus some token generators in Elspeth, Knight-Errant, Elspeth, Sun's Champion and Assemble the Legion.
But an issue that comes up is having a creature to equip Sunforger too. If you read through my posts I've brought up this subject before.
So 7 creatures in your deck is not going to cut it. You will have games where your Sunforger will be sitting on the battlefield without a creature to equip it too.
"But can't I just equip it to Firesong and Sunspeaker?". The problem with playing a 6 mana commander is that if it's dealt with, then recasting for 8 mana, etc, is a huge tax. Often you really want to just be able to equip a cheap creature to have the flexibility of dealing with opponents immediately.
Also be careful that Aether Flash just doesn't lock you out of playing your creatures, which 5 of them will die (5/7 is pretty bad).
I chose Cleansing Meditation as my enchantment hater because it's very easy to get threshold in this deck so you're able to save your own enchantments in case you have to wipe the board of your opponents'. Even if you do end up wiping your own enchantments for lack of threshold, you can recover them later on with Replenish.
I do think that the Replenish looks pretty weak in the deck. You a re literally only using this card if a board wipe has happened AND you've had a good number of them in play. With only 9 enchantments, this is unlikely to happen. You'll probably only get one back in most occasions, and you've had to wait until the senerio of removal has happened.
You'll just have to trust me that you'll find this a dead draw for 90% of your games. You really need a deck that is able to fuel your graveyard -OR- has a lot of mass removal. Cleansing Meditation just isn't enough removal for a Replenish strategy.
[EDIT]
Ahh I've realized that you thought that Sunforger gets Replenish, unfortunately it's a sorcery not an instant. I can see why you were trying to include it.
Damn, you're right about Replenish... I don't know how that flew over my head; quite the brain fart! Taking it out would definitely open a slot. You're also right on Tithe over Gift of Estates.
The amount of life gained in the deck due to FS&SS is ridiculous, so I was also considering adding Aetherflux Reservoir. Because, regardless of Sunforger (which I admit, is almost a glass cannon), gaining over 100 life out a well-timed Blasphemous Act is nothing to scoff at. The amount of life is also why I included Glacial Chasm. Glacial Chasm helps against being attacked and burned. You could also cast cards like Earthquake relatively carefree thanks to it, as well.
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You can cast Chance for Glory and then next turn cast Angel's Grace, so you don't need to be casting them both in the same turn. In fact this doesn't work. So you're naturally just using Sunforger to cast each one in subsequent turns.
[EDIT]
Oh right you're going for infinite turns.
Pull from Eternity is such a corner case. It's super hard to justify a slot for the 1 in 20 games that Sunforger gets exiled. That means in 19 games this card will do absolutely nothing.
You should run at least one other equipment, you do get games where a Stonehewer Giant, Godo, Bandit Warlord, Stoneforge Mystic cannot get value.
If have a token theme, then Skullclamp is your best bet. Sword of Fire and Ice works with the protection from red strategy of dealing damage to creatures, so can mitigate this for a creature.
Basically you need to run more creatures for Sunforger still. Adanto Vanguard is resilient to your spells.
Others like this are; Auriok Champion, Burrenton Forge-Tender, Crimson Acolyte, Kor Firewalker.
You're running 4 more spells than I do which deal damage to your own creatures (with red spells) so I can see these being good in your deck.
The reason for the smaller creatures, is that they are far less appealing for opponents to specifically use removal on them. Where as a Gisela, Blade of Goldnight, Neheb, the Eternal, Stonehewer Giant, Godo, Bandit Warlord are far more likely to see opponents happily removing them.
What I'm saying is that even these bigger creatures can't reliable be used to equip Sunforger, as opponents are quick to bounce on them with removal.
You will need to make cuts for some smaller creatures.
Insult // Injury, is the worst of the double damage, just because it require spending mana in the same turn as the other cards you want to cast to deal damage.
True, I see what you mean. I could cut down on some of the more higher costed mana doublers in order to make more room for cheaper creatures, which also lower the curve. Skullclamp goes great with Assemble the Legion. You're right on Pull from Eternity since the deck isn't intensely dependent on Sunforger. I forgot to remove Paradox Engine since I don't have that many mana rocks. That should open up a few slots.
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True, I see what you mean. I could cut down on some of the more higher costed mana doublers in order to make more room for cheaper creatures, which also lower the curve. Skullclamp goes great with Assemble the Legion. You're right on Pull from Eternity since the deck isn't intensely dependent on Sunforger. I forgot to remove Paradox Engine since I don't have that many mana rocks. That should open up a few slots.
Also you could look at Tajic, Legion's Edge as an additional creature to help with preventing damage. Play this over Light of Sanction to up your creature equip targets.
Alright these are the changes I've made over the last month.
Hey guys, I see you've sparked up quite a discussion, I didn't read it all. Here's an answer to a couple of questions that I was asked:
Do you have enough mana?
I've never run into trouble with mana, I've always gotten Land Tax, Oath of Lieges, Mana Flare or some other card that lets me ramp lands (these cards also help opponents ramp and thus lay down creatures to gain life off of). And I always get Wheel effects, so if you are low on land just cast a Wheel. In fact it works better with less lands, as I'm constantly drawing new hands anyway and don't want too many.
Sun Forger is not a key part of the deck. Just a nice to have to use to cast instants and fill up the grave. My win cards are Mizzix's Mastery or Repercussions. I also don't run any token generators or other equipment, so my deck has a much different build.
My deck is more about filling the grave with instants and sorceries than tutoring for the right spells. When I tried to be more equipment focused my equipment kept getting exiled.
Contemplation could probably be replaced with Angel's Feather, I used it instead because I had something that needed 3 white permanents in play to work, but I took it out and can't recall what it is now. Or taken out altogether, but I like getting a bolt effect off of every white spell I cast.
Given that I make heavy use of enchantments and can cast it a second time form the grave Plea for Guidance has been a really good card in this deck. I don't like blowing up my Treasonous Ogre, when I cast Blasphemous Act, so I need to tutor for the damage prevention enchantments and Repercussions is always perfect at that time too.
Orim's Chant is normally good when I get it. But would consider taking it out for something better.
Sentinel Tower: I've never drawn this card, so don't know how good it is, but when I'm casting 20 spells at a time with Mizzix's Mastery, it would be very good.
Pull from Eternity is a card I would consider using, as I do tent to use flashback, so I could grab some exiled card, and do trick using my Mistveil Plains and maybe use Gamble to get the card again.
I actually invest a lot of time into playing and tweaking this deck, because I find it to be a really fun and balanced deck to play for casual games. Normally my decks are designed a bit more spikey.
There is a lot of pleasure from trying to win grindy games and especially in Boros colors which is in reality the underdog of colors in commander.
So when a call for a casual game is suggested, I often will make this my go to deck, as it has tons of interaction and answers.
I've made quite a few more changes over the last week.
There is a red counterspell in Mages' Contest which can be searched with Sunforger. Where have you been hiding all my life!!! Didn't know this card existed, I love surprising people with my counterspell suite in Boros.
Because the deck has such a heavy focus on Sunforger, I added Sculpting Steel as a way to copy it, for more ways to use it. It's possibly that Masterwork of Ingenuity is the better option, as the deck doesn have more equipment tutors, but just wanting to keep it a bit more versatile with Sculpting Steel for copying other stuff.
Removed Young Pyromancer super underperformed, I mean a few extra 1/1 per games was pretty mediocre.
It's not that I never used Aurelia's Fury to some good effects, but the fact that you can't search it with Sunforger isn't great, and the "life gain from white spells deals 3 damage" with Firesong and Sunspeaker doesn't really make much of an impact, unless you combine a spell with Radiate.
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Lol, that sounds quite brutal. But it's so convoluted that it might be worth pulling off without having too many players hate you off the table. You'd simply be untouchable until after they stop killing each other. It's also easy to equip Sunforger for free multiple times with Kazuul's Toll Collector.
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Teferi's Protection doesn't stop people from messing with your hand or library, I've had people make me discard everything after I cast that, which still ended the game for me. But it would be generally good to be able to cast in every turn. I would like to reuse Mizzix's Mastery so I will play Pull from Eternity for that purpose.
Teferi's Protection doesn't stop people from messing with your hand or library, I've had people make me discard everything after I cast that, which still ended the game for me. But it would be generally good to be able to cast in every turn. I would like to reuse Mizzix's Mastery so I will play Pull from Eternity for that purpose.
Well this is a pretty funny story. I altered the deck to actually have this combo and I got a game that had it all setup. I was literally able to Pull from Eternity the Teferi's Protection. I had Grand Abolisher, so my opponents were not really able to interact with me whilst doing this, and I was using Deserted Temple to untap the Mistveil Plains so I was shuffling both the Pull from Eternity and Teferi's Protection back into the deck. I had enough mana to do all the equipping and casting each turn, using Kazuul's Toll Collector, as DementedKirby had suggested.
You know what the very first spell an opponent played on the turn after I properly had this all set this all setup? I'm not even joking, Archon of Valor's Reach naming instants...I actually wanted to cry.
But I never in a millions years expected an opponent to literally have the perfect answer for when I spent actually like 5 other games trying to get the combo, and the game that I get it, wham, "now what does your deck do?", lol.
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That is super funny how it worked out that way. I mean you do have the perfect colors for creature removal though, so I would think you could Gamble into a card to get rid of that Archon. But I've had similar things happen to me, or I had the perfect setup and just forgot to use one card at the right time.
I do like my build, it's super fun to play, and the constant discard and draw screws up momentum on control decks, while the Mana Flare and Oath of Lieges screw up tempo for agro players and offer some great targets to gain life off of.
I may try the build you are doing online, but I've had the worst luck with Sunforger constantly getting destroyed the second I play it. I use it now just to waste opponents removal and counter spells so they don't kill the cards I'm going to use to do massive damage to them in one turn.
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So just looking at my current deck and it has these changes;
Added
+ Auriok Windwalker
+ Knight of the White Orchid
+ Elspeth, Knight-Errant
+ Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Removed
- Mizzix's Mastery
- Primal Amulet
- Archangel of Thune
- Adanto Vanguard
I wanted some more creature token makers, so added in the Elspeth's and actually all their abilities are potentially relevant.
I found the Primal Amulet a bit slow unfortunately.
The new cards that I would add to the deck for a try is Chance for Glory and Tajic, Legion's Edge.
Unfortunately not being able to search Integrity//Intervention with Sunforger is enough to put me off. Casting Warleader's Helix naturally usually feels pretty bad.
The trick with Chance for Glory is to use it with Angel's Grace.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
First off Orim's Chant is massively underrated. This card has won me more games than I can count.
Second, Repercussion is extremely powerful. Repercussion and Blasphemous Act can literally one shot all your opponents on the same turn if you let them set up properly.
I use a strategy where I play Mana Flare, Howling Mine, Helm of Awakening, let my opponents get out a bunch of creatures tap out and then use Repercussions to one hit kill them. Or I make them draw a bunch of cards and play Molten Psyche (which is surprisingly good in Boros) with a damage doubler and hit everyone of huge amounts of damage.
If you combine Repercussion with any thing that doubles damage, you actually do 4 x damage to the creatures controllers, and kill their creatures at the same time. So if you cast a lighting bolt for one mana, hit a creature for 6, and then the creatures controller for 12. Then you fork it. And hit a second creature, you just did 24 damage for 3 mana, killing two creatures.
Æther Flash with Repercussion and a damage doubler will keep almost all creatures off the board, and do 8 damage to the creature's controller every time they cast a creature spell.
Powerstone Minefield and a damage doubler can really reduce your chances of being attacked.
Reverse Damage and damage redirection cards are highly underrated. When someone swings for 21 commander damage and you have Furnace of Rath out, and redirect it back to them, then it's a one shot. Or you gain 10 life when they thought you were going to die and then on your turn board wipe, now the game is reset.
That's just my two cents. In Boros control creatures matter very little as you should be blowing up the board all the time, so you are better off setting up ways to one shot opponents, with damage doublers, Forks and Repercussion with cards like Chain Reaction.
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I think I'm actually going to load my deck up with every red card that doubles damage. Play two damage doublers (for 4x damage), play Sunforger, play the commander and Sunforge into Warleader's Helix, do 40 damage to one opponent, then fork it. And if you know someone's holding counter spells you would cast Orim's Chant on them first, many people don't see a one shot coming in a Red White deck, and don't realize how much damage you can easily do, as no one plays Boros control.
The game that go the best is when opponents set up with heaps of creatures that are not necessarily pressuring you and then you do a massive Chain Reaction or Blasphemous Act and literally gain a hundred or even two hundred or more life. Then you just have this massive cushion that you can sit on. But Repercussion actually gives you a win con with that.
I know what you mean, like you are just happy that people are playing creatures out, and you start counting them, like "play more, play more please". So I can understand the hug deck style with Howling Mine and Mana Flare. But I think because the deck is so slow to start with, not helping opponents gives you some breathing space to keep on top of whats going on, rather than just getting combo winned out.
I do play Silence in the deck, but I can see having Orim's Chant as an alternative or as well of.
Added
+ Repercussion
Removed
- Blaze Commando
Blaze Commando has turned out to be actual factual terrible in my deck. Just not enough instants and soceries dealing damage to get value out of the guy at 5 mana. Young Peezy at least only cost two mana. Honestly I never got any tokens out of Blaze Commando because I couldn't cast it in a timely manner.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
I also have pretty much every card draw artifact and land in that deck, I really like one's that let everyone draw though. You can never have too much stuff to blow up. You also have to play like a hug deck and be very political, to ensure whoever is about to combo out get's stopped, in many cases this is you just whipping the board to the appreciation of everyone that wasn't going to combo out. Board wipes that do damage are much better than those that do not by the way.
This is the deck I had where Reliquary Tower was very good, as I would want to accumulate as many cards in my hand as fast as I could. Then cast all win condition cards in one turn.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
I will need to post my deck list up one of these days, what's the best way to post a deck list on this site?
I've put my deck list up, here's a link to it. It works pretty well.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/firesong-and-sunspeaker-wheels-of-fire/?cb=1543099314
Best,
Andrew
The changes I would make are simply adding more lands. I'd easily go up to 34, but I personally would play 35 probably 36 in your deck.
Easy cuts for land in my opinion;
Contemplation
Plea for Guidance
Orim's Chant
Sentinel Tower
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Here, just quote my reply and see how the coding is to post a deck in the forums:
1 Firesong and Sunspeaker
Artifacts: 14
1 Aetherflux Reservoir
1 Alhammarret's Archive
1 Boros Signet
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mirage Mirror
1 Primal Amulet
1 Pyromancer's Goggles
1 Seal of the Guildpact
1 Sentinel Tower
1 Sol Ring
1 Sunforger
1 Thaumatic Compass
1 Thran Dynamo
Creatures: 6
1 Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
1 Mother of Runes
1 Neheb, the Eternal
1 Rune-Tail, Kitsune Ascendant
1 Treasonous Ogre
1 Weathered Wayfarer
Enchantment: 10
1 Contemplation
1 Dictate of the Twin Gods
1 Furnace of Rath
1 Land Tax
1 Light of Sanction
1 Mana Flare
1 Mark of Asylum
1 Oath of Lieges
1 Repercussion
1 Sunbird's Invocation
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Jaya Ballard
Instants: 13
1 Argivian Find
1 Aurelia's Fury
1 Boros Charm
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Firestorm
1 Invoke the Divine
1 Lightning Helix
1 Magmaquake
1 Orim's Chant
1 Return to Dust
1 Silence
1 Tithe
1 Warleader's Helix
Sorceries: 24
1 Blasphemous Act
1 Bonus Round
1 Chain Reaction
1 Deafening Clarion
1 Fiery Confluence
1 Gamble
1 Gift of Estates
1 Hour of Devastation
1 Incendiary Command
1 Insult // Injury
1 Khorvath's Fury
1 Mana Geyser
1 Mizzium Mortars
1 Mizzix's Mastery
1 Molten Psyche
1 Past in Flames
1 Plea for Guidance
1 Reforge the Soul
1 Righteous Confluence
1 Star of Extinction
1 Vandalblast
1 Volcanic Vision
1 Wheel of Fate
1 Wheel of Foturne
1 Arid Mesa
1 Battlefield Forge
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Boros Garrison
1 Clifftop Retreat
1 Command Tower
1 Flooded Strand
1 Kor Haven
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1 Mistveil Plains
8 Mountain
1 Myriad Landscape
6 Plains
1 Plateau
1 Rugged Prairie
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
Great deck, by the way! Although, how does it run with so few lands? Do you hit any snags?
EDIT:
You guys have inspired me to do a Boros control / reanimator / spellslinger deck with this minotaur couple at the helm. When I'm finished drafting a list I'll be sure to post it!
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
6 Firesong and Sunspeaker
Artifacts: 15
5 Alhammarret's Archive
2 Boros Signet
6 Coveted Jewel
1 Elixir of Immortality
5 Gilded Lotus
2 Helm of Awakening
2 Hematite Talisman
2 Howling Mine
2 Mirage Mirror
2 Nacre Talisman
5 Paradox Engine
5 Pyromancer's Goggles
1 Sol Ring
3 Sunforger
4 Thran Dynamo
Creatures: 7
7 Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
3 Kazuul's Toll Collector
2 Leonin Shikari
5 Neheb, the Eternal
3 Rune-Tail, Kitsune Ascendant
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Weathered Wayfarer
Enchantments: 9
4 Aether Flash
5 Dictate of the Twin Gods
4 Furnace of Rath
1 Land Tax
3 Light of Sanction
3 Mana Flare
2 Mark of Asylum
2 Oath of Lieges
3 Repurcussion
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
5 Jaya Ballard
Instants: 14
1 Angel's Grace
4 Benevolent Offering
2 Boros Charm
3 Chance for Glory
4 Comeuppance
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Lightning Helix
2 Magmaquake
1 Orim's Chant
1 Path to Exile
1 Pull from Eternity
4 Return to Dust
1 Silence
4 Warleader's Helix
Sorceries: 19
9 Blasphemous Act
3 Bonus Round
4 Chain Reaction
3 Cleansing Meditation
3 Deafening Clarion
2 Gift of Estates
5 Hour of Devastation
4 Insult // Injury
5 Mana Geyser
3 Molten Psyche
2 Open the Armory
5 Reforge the Soul
4 Replenish
7 Star of Extinction
1 Steelshaper's Gift
1 Vandalblast
7 Volcanic Vision
0 Wheel of Fate
3 Wheel of Fortune
0 Arid Mesa
0 Battlefield Forge
0 Boros Garrison
0 Clifftop Retreat
0 Command Tower
0 Deserted Temple
0 Flagstones of Trokair
0 Forbidden Orchard
0 Geier Reach Sanitarium
0 Glacial Chasm
0 Kor Haven
0 Marsh Flats
0 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
0 Mistveil Plains
10 Mountains
0 Myriad Landscape
5 Plains
0 Rugged Prairie
0 Sacred Foundry
0 Windswept Heath
A bit inspired by darrenhabib and Andrew O., here's a rundown on some of my choices:
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
So what I'm saying is that it specifically needs to be for your current deck configuration;
Mistveil Plains + Sunforger + Paradox Engine + Hematite Talisman/Nacre Talisman + Gilded Lotus/Coveted Jewel + Thran Dynamo + (Boros Signet/Pyromancer's Goggles + Sol Ring)
-OR-
Instead of the (Boros Signet/Pyromancer's Goggles + Sol Ring) to pay for the equip of Sunforger you have Kazuul's Toll Collector.
But you absolutely need every single one of these cards in order to work, which is a tall order.
Hey any chance for getting glory is worth it Sundial of the Infinite is the other card you can use to negate the 'lose at end of turn'. It's possible that a deck could be built around a few more token generators to make the Sundial have more uses, like; Feldon of the Third Path, Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker, Valduk, Keeper of the Flame, Flameshadow Conjuring, Elemental Mastery, Akoum Stonewaker, Chandra, Flamecaller, Felhide Spiritbinder, Firecat Blitz, Splinter Twin, Tilonalli's Summoner, Twinflame
Token generators are nice as they lead into the Blasphemous Act and Chain Reaction combos.
I do have a deck with Comeuppance and when it's good, it's really good. Basically you can consider this commanders Settle the Wreckage. I've found Settle the Wreckage unplayable in multiplayer commander, as it just gives too much of an advantage with basic lands, so Comeuppance is the better card for dealing with opponents attacks. Well you do need more creatures in the deck for Sunforger. I have 15 creatures, plus some token generators in Elspeth, Knight-Errant, Elspeth, Sun's Champion and Assemble the Legion.
But an issue that comes up is having a creature to equip Sunforger too. If you read through my posts I've brought up this subject before.
So 7 creatures in your deck is not going to cut it. You will have games where your Sunforger will be sitting on the battlefield without a creature to equip it too.
"But can't I just equip it to Firesong and Sunspeaker?". The problem with playing a 6 mana commander is that if it's dealt with, then recasting for 8 mana, etc, is a huge tax. Often you really want to just be able to equip a cheap creature to have the flexibility of dealing with opponents immediately.
Also be careful that Aether Flash just doesn't lock you out of playing your creatures, which 5 of them will die (5/7 is pretty bad).
With Sunforger you definitely want at least one catch all removal card like; Chaos Warp or Oblation. You could easily take out Path to Exile and Pull from Eternity for these.
Make sure you play Tithe over Gift of Estates, as you can Sunforger the Tithe, and this can be used to get your Mistveil Plains.
I do think that the Replenish looks pretty weak in the deck. You a re literally only using this card if a board wipe has happened AND you've had a good number of them in play. With only 9 enchantments, this is unlikely to happen. You'll probably only get one back in most occasions, and you've had to wait until the senerio of removal has happened.
You'll just have to trust me that you'll find this a dead draw for 90% of your games. You really need a deck that is able to fuel your graveyard -OR- has a lot of mass removal. Cleansing Meditation just isn't enough removal for a Replenish strategy.
[EDIT]
Ahh I've realized that you thought that Sunforger gets Replenish, unfortunately it's a sorcery not an instant. I can see why you were trying to include it.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Yeah, giving your opponents tokens is definitely the way to go in order to abuse cards like Blasphemous Act and Chain Reaction when coupled with Repercussion. Since I'm also running Helm of Awakening, Mana Flare, and Howling Mine, it'll seem grouphuggish if I'm also giving opponents creatures. Unbeknownst to them, it's just to fuel a future disadvantage to them. Including Forbidden Orchard and Benevolent Offering just seemed like a no-brainer to me. (I was also considering adding Varchild's War-Riders).
Damn, you're right about Replenish... I don't know how that flew over my head; quite the brain fart! Taking it out would definitely open a slot. You're also right on Tithe over Gift of Estates.
I like your thoughts on Sundial of the Infinite (could replace Replenish). That way I don't have to jump through so many hoops with recycling Chance for Glory and Angel's Grace in the same turn (it's still a good idea to keep Angel's Grace in the deck as a way to trump combo). I could also use it to add substantial token generators to the deck. As a way to get more creatures I could also just swap the equipment tutor spells for creatures that do the same (Stonehewer Giant and Godo, Bandit Warlord) which would give me two bodies. They could probably be swapped in for Steelshaper's Gift and Open the Armory. Since I'm using the sundial to overcome Chance for Glory's "lose the game" clause, I could also take out Hematite Talisman and Nacre Talisman and put Chaos Warp and Oblation in their place. I'd still keep Pull from Eternity in case Sunforger is exiled.
The amount of life gained in the deck due to FS&SS is ridiculous, so I was also considering adding Aetherflux Reservoir. Because, regardless of Sunforger (which I admit, is almost a glass cannon), gaining over 100 life out a well-timed Blasphemous Act is nothing to scoff at. The amount of life is also why I included Glacial Chasm. Glacial Chasm helps against being attacked and burned. You could also cast cards like Earthquake relatively carefree thanks to it, as well.
Here's a summary of the changes:
1 Replenish
1 Nacre Talisman
1 Hematite Talisman
1 Gift of Estates
1 Cleansing Meditation
1 Steelshaper's Gift
1 Open the Armory
1 Sundial of the Infinite
1 Chaos Warp
1 Oblation
1 Tithe
1 Patrician's Scorn
1 Stonehewer Giant
1 Godo, Bandit Warlord
Any other changes you suggest?
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
[EDIT]
Oh right you're going for infinite turns.
Pull from Eternity is such a corner case. It's super hard to justify a slot for the 1 in 20 games that Sunforger gets exiled. That means in 19 games this card will do absolutely nothing.
You should run at least one other equipment, you do get games where a Stonehewer Giant, Godo, Bandit Warlord, Stoneforge Mystic cannot get value.
If have a token theme, then Skullclamp is your best bet. Sword of Fire and Ice works with the protection from red strategy of dealing damage to creatures, so can mitigate this for a creature.
Basically you need to run more creatures for Sunforger still. Adanto Vanguard is resilient to your spells.
Others like this are; Auriok Champion, Burrenton Forge-Tender, Crimson Acolyte, Kor Firewalker.
You're running 4 more spells than I do which deal damage to your own creatures (with red spells) so I can see these being good in your deck.
The reason for the smaller creatures, is that they are far less appealing for opponents to specifically use removal on them. Where as a Gisela, Blade of Goldnight, Neheb, the Eternal, Stonehewer Giant, Godo, Bandit Warlord are far more likely to see opponents happily removing them.
What I'm saying is that even these bigger creatures can't reliable be used to equip Sunforger, as opponents are quick to bounce on them with removal.
You will need to make cuts for some smaller creatures.
Insult // Injury, is the worst of the double damage, just because it require spending mana in the same turn as the other cards you want to cast to deal damage.
Once you've cut the combo of Nacre Talisman and Hematite Talisman, Paradox Engine is looking a lot worse. You don't have a lot of artifact mana, honestly you're missing key expensive mana rocks to really make it consistent. Things like Mana Crypt, Mana Vault, Grim Monolith, for starters.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
1 Paradox Engine
1 Pull from Eternity
1 Insult // Injury
1 Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
1 Path to Exile
1 Neheb, the Eternal
1 Skullclamp
1 Crimson Acolyte
1 Adanto Vanguard
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Hammer of Nazahn
1 Darksteel Myr
I took into consideration your point on more equipment and resilient creatures. How's it looking now?
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
I'd bring back Gisela, Blade of Goldnight or Neheb, the Eternal.
Also you could look at Tajic, Legion's Edge as an additional creature to help with preventing damage. Play this over Light of Sanction to up your creature equip targets.
Alright these are the changes I've made over the last month.
Added
+ Lightning Greaves
+ Mind Stone
+ Fiery Confluence
+ Star of Extinction
+ Avacyn, Angel of Hope
+ Forbidden Orchard
Removed
- Gamble
- Past in Flames
- Settle the Wreckage
- Grand Abolisher
- Felidar Sovereign
- Cavern of Souls
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
There is a lot of pleasure from trying to win grindy games and especially in Boros colors which is in reality the underdog of colors in commander.
So when a call for a casual game is suggested, I often will make this my go to deck, as it has tons of interaction and answers.
I've made quite a few more changes over the last week.
Added
+ Burnished Hart
+ Solemn Simulacrum
+ Sculpting Steel
+ Angel's Grace
+ Chance for Glory
+ Intimidation Bolt
+ Mages' Contest
+ Crush Contraband
+ Kazuul's Toll Collector
+ Buried Ruin
+ Sequestered Stash
Removed
- Grim Monolith
- Mana Vault
- Lightning Greaves
- Elspeth, Knight-Errant
- Aurelia's Fury
- Young Pyromancer
- Fiery Confluence
- Avacyn, Angel of Hope
- Argivian Find
- Plains
- Mountain
Added
I added the Chance for Glory along with Angel's Grace, to get another Sunforger combo going.
I also wanted to have a few more spells I could combine with Radiate.
Intimidation Bolt and Crush Contraband are further cards that can be Sunforger, and combined with Radiate if necessary.
Crush Contraband can remove Erebos, God of the Dead, which has got me a few times not being able to gain life.
There is a red counterspell in Mages' Contest which can be searched with Sunforger. Where have you been hiding all my life!!! Didn't know this card existed, I love surprising people with my counterspell suite in Boros.
Essentially I replaced Argivian Find with lands that do the same with Buried Ruin and Sequestered Stash.
Because the deck has such a heavy focus on Sunforger, I added Sculpting Steel as a way to copy it, for more ways to use it. It's possibly that Masterwork of Ingenuity is the better option, as the deck doesn have more equipment tutors, but just wanting to keep it a bit more versatile with Sculpting Steel for copying other stuff.
Removed
Young Pyromancer super underperformed, I mean a few extra 1/1 per games was pretty mediocre.
It's not that I never used Aurelia's Fury to some good effects, but the fact that you can't search it with Sunforger isn't great, and the "life gain from white spells deals 3 damage" with Firesong and Sunspeaker doesn't really make much of an impact, unless you combine a spell with Radiate.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
If you have Grand Abolisher then it's almost impossible for your opponents to interact and kill you.
So if you have Mistveil Plains along with Deserted Temple and Sunforger, then you can look to loop Teferi's Protection with Pull from Eternity, and enough ways to equip Sunforger and use it twice.
This sort of thing tickles my fancy, I'm quite tempted to try to pull it off once
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Lol, that sounds quite brutal. But it's so convoluted that it might be worth pulling off without having too many players hate you off the table. You'd simply be untouchable until after they stop killing each other. It's also easy to equip Sunforger for free multiple times with Kazuul's Toll Collector.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
You know what the very first spell an opponent played on the turn after I properly had this all set this all setup? I'm not even joking, Archon of Valor's Reach naming instants...I actually wanted to cry.
I know there are number of cards that can shut you down like Stony Silence, Null Rod, Meddling Mage, Nevermore, Pithing Needle, along with a bunch of other similar cards that name specific cards to shut down.
But I never in a millions years expected an opponent to literally have the perfect answer for when I spent actually like 5 other games trying to get the combo, and the game that I get it, wham, "now what does your deck do?", lol.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
I do like my build, it's super fun to play, and the constant discard and draw screws up momentum on control decks, while the Mana Flare and Oath of Lieges screw up tempo for agro players and offer some great targets to gain life off of.
I may try the build you are doing online, but I've had the worst luck with Sunforger constantly getting destroyed the second I play it. I use it now just to waste opponents removal and counter spells so they don't kill the cards I'm going to use to do massive damage to them in one turn.