I’m used to brewing a lot of U related decks, but recently decided to build and put to paper a couple non-blue decks for variety and to step a bit outside of my box, while still having fun doing so. I brewed a lot of lists, but the first commander to paper ended up being Rhonas the Indomitable!
I like Rhonas the Indomitable firstly because he is indestructible so he can be pretty resilient. Secondly, deathtouch seems like a good way to force opponents into difficult combat situations, and other damage enablers (i.e. the fight mechanic or pinging) essentially act as destroy effects. Lastly, his activated ability pumps and adds trample to another creature, thus aiding in his own threshold requirement and adding some more combat nuances for opponents to think about. Subtly, Rhonas can give this pump + evasion (as many times as he’d like without having to tap, provided enough mana) to any creature, not just your own, which can have political implications if you’re willing to use it that way – this is something I wish Thassa, God of the Sea could do at times to help other players deal with problem situations, which could also garner me benefits in the form of political favor or closer to victory.
I perused lists and brainstormed ideas, gathering great inspiration from Honor Basquiat’s “Indomitable Four Drops” list (using one-drop ramps to get Rhonas out as early as T2, followed up by an efficient four-drop 4+ power creature to get Rhonas “online” and swinging right away). My very first paper version took this strategy with a couple tweaks, but in multiplayer play seemed too much like a red aggro deck, swinging 5 commander damage on someone by T3. I would deal a lot of damage to one player (maybe taking someone out early), or would spread a lot of damage around the table, effectively crippling life totals to about half-life around the table, but then I would either run out of gas or opponents would obviously combine forces and energies to come back at me, archenemy style, which becomes difficult to fend off 2-3 payers at once even with a handful of beefy beaters and Rhonas. So, I decided to make the deck a bit slower and a bit more methodical in it’s approach instead of letting Rhonas loose ASAP and hope that no one can keep up.
After a couple small revisions in this new direction, I feel at an impasse, with cuts becoming excruciating, but still I feel the deck may not be wholly focused with efficient synergies. I’m posting the list here with a breakdown of my intended strategy hoping to get some feedback from all you wonderful folks! Here is the current list:
A quick note: I personally try to build and play decks without tutors, and 99% of the games I play are 3-4 multiplayer.
4/30: I'm relaxing my tutors requirement for now with Green Sun's Zenith in the deck and thinking about Primal Command.
Get creatures out. Get trampler and pump enablers out. Get mana doublers and similar to gets lots of mana to drop into the trampler and pump enablers. Attack.
My current vision is semi-Voltron with a pump and trample sub-theme, most exciting me to use as a way for opponents to make that hard decision to keep their armies but take more commander damage, or throw bodies in front of Rhonas but have nearly nothing left to block with the next round. An indestructible trampler with deathtouch is scary to start taking 21 damage from and is deadly effective when blocked, effectively becoming a “destroy” board wipe if trying to prevent that damage. For the time I want to wipe the opponent’s creatures, I’ve included lure effects like the namesake Lure and Tempting Licid. Nothing survives that crosses Rhonas's path: shroud or hexproof? Rhonas doesn't care. Deathtouch, first strike, double strike? Rhonas still doesn't care. Unless the creature has indestructible, it almost certainly isn't surviving a forced block against the K.O. King.
Then, four- and five-drop creatures to get Rhonas online at least to get an indestructible deathtouching blocker out to deter early aggro unless I want to actually use him. I focused on resilient creatures (built-in protection preferred) to prevent having to redeploy too much from a board wipe or unfavorable combat result, such as: Baru, Fist of Krosa, Nylea, God of the Hunt, Silvos, Rogue Elemental, and Temur Sabertooth.
Then, I want to set up trample enablers (Rhonas can target pump and enable trample), particularly for Rhonas to force opponents to take more commander damage or to essentially sacrifice creatures to him. I like the enchantment and equipment variants on Rhonas because it’s less likely that he will be 2-for-1’ed by removal. The trample package I’m going with for now includes: Rancor, Vow of Wildness, Berserk (which can also target an opponent’s creature if necessary to deal with other opponents), Overwhelming Stampede, Revenge of the Hunted, Kamahl, Fist of Krosa, the aforementioned Nylea, God of the Hunt, Pathbreaker Ibex, Thunderfoot Baloth, Goreclaw, Terror of Qal Sisma pumps the team and grants trample on attack (and Rhonas can pump it to ensure it lives the danger zone for the trigger) and a recently added equipment package that includes Haunted Cloak.
The final stage involves using the power of mana doublers to exponentially increase my mana output to dump into the trample pump abilities within Rhonas, Nylea, Kamahl, etc. For now, I'm running Caged Sun, Vernal Bloom, Dictate of Karametra (symmetrical, but with flash I can hope to use it on my turn to finish the game before others can take advantage), and Regal Behemoth. Karametra's Acolyte and Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx help in generating huge chunks of mana as well since 80%+ of the deck are permanents with many green pips to go around.
There are usually some sort of utility or big value creatures that opponents will never attack or block with making it difficult to remove them normally in a deck like this, so I have included a few ways to force blocks such as Lure, Tempting Licid, Tower Above, and Revenge of the Hunted can force them to block Rhonas for a timely death as well.
WIN CONDITIONS
With combat orientated keyword sub-themes and a Voltron-ish use of Rhonas, the main win condition will involve combat, likely through commander damage.
1. Getting Rhonas through with the various trample enablers, or paving the way to an open board with him via Lure, Tempting Licid, or Revenge of the Hunted. Berserk gets 21 commander damage through with little pump effort.
3. Get Bellowing Tanglewurm to stick and hope the opponent doesn’t have removal or green creatures. Really, I’m not seeing much more win conditions that this since the deck is more linear than other decks I have.
4. Helm of the Host creating an army of indestructible Rhonas's (even if answered right away, a couple of beeft indestructible deathtouchers that can trample pump themselves is still pretty menacing).
4. Assemble the pieces for a soft infinite combo. Special thanks to Ertai Planeswalker for bringing it up and explaining it!
Quote from Ertai Planeswalker »
1: Baru, Fist of Krosa, Mirage Mirror, Paleoloth and at least 5 lands in play
2: Mirage Mirror copies Baru, Fist of Krosa, sacrifice Baru, Fist of Krosa due to legend rule.
3: Play any creature with power 5 or more to get Paleoloth to trigger. Return Baru, Fist of Krosa back into your hand.
4: Discard Baru, Fist of Krosa to Mirage Mirror's grandeur ability to get a 5+/5+ Wurm token.
5: Paleoloth triggers on the Wurm token entering the battlefield, return Baru, Fist of Krosa from your graveyard to your hand.
6: Go back to step 4.
Savage Punch, Prey Upon, Nature’s Way, Ambuscade and other “fight” cards. As mentioned earlier, I originally included many more of these, but ended up finding them as the least impactful, especially the sorcery-speed ones and started cutting them for other stuff. 2/27/18: I've basically cut these altogether, changing up the theme.
LOTS of other Rhonas-enabling 4-drops, notably Polukranos, World Eater, Chameleon Colossus, and Vengevine. I had them in at one time, but cut them for various reasons. For example, I cut Polukranos because this deck doesn’t necessarily produce a boat-ton of mana like most other green decks so leaves his Monstrosity ability lackluster. Same with the Colossus: cool to double, then quadruple him up if he has trample, but very lacking compared to other decks that can actually abuse this more by making him 32+ power regularly.
Speaking of tample: Pathbreaker Ibex could be good here (more so IMO than Craterhoof Behemoth since I don’t make a while ton of creatures at once), but it has no built-in protection and is more easily removed as a creature effect. I’ve seen it used well and essentially a +5/+5 and trampler enabler each turn with Rhonas out is tempting, but I’m not fully on board with it.I've added this now, and it's sooooo good.
I ended up cutting Woodfall Primus. I liked that he has trample, enables Rhonas, and is somewhat resilient with persist, but it was always kind of awkward for me either holding on to him in hand waiting for a juicy target to remove or having him stuck in hand because of the mana cost.I've added him back.
Siege Behemoth was a way to ensure damage gets through, but with all the trample felt like he was win-more.
Arena seemed good until I realized the opponent gets to choose which creature they want to have fight Rhonas.
I’m sure I’ve considered other cards as well, but hadn’t recorded them with the other versions.
CURRENT CONSIDERATIONS
4/30/18:
I feel like this deck is in a good spot now. I've changed the theme/strategy from the "fight" mechanic and select single pumps to Rhonas to more draw, ramp, and more team pump with trample, best aided by mana doubling. It feels much more green goodstuffs, but it's way more effective, and I'm okay with that (for now).
I'd really like to improve on this though, so I'm all ears for way to synergize the elements of draw, ramp, big creatures, and trample - short of Craterhoof Benemoth.
What do you all think of the Rhonas + Trample & Pump + big mana production? Too much going on in one area? Not enough going on? Are there other ways to make this effective? Thanks for the advice!
The Thornbite Staff turns out to be not that great when you don't have a lot of mana to keep using it in succession (more on the mana issue later). There almost always seemed to be a card in the yard I would love to re-use though (draw spells, trample enabler, etc), so I've added Eternal Witness as it has the added 2-power creature value that Rhonas can pump to enable himself if needed, or act as another super-pumped beater from other pump & trample effects.
The targeted trample enablers just weren't cutting it. They would leave me with a really good Rhonas, but lackluster 4 or less powered rest of the team, which wasn't very effective in multiplayer so far. So, I cut Cartouche of Strength and Wildheart Invoker for the repeatable use and creature synergistic Kamahl, Fist of Krosa and Pathbreaker Ibex. Both of them are definitely win conditions more-so than the cuts.
Emporer Crocodile, Bristling Hydra, and Prowling Serpopard are all great 4-or-less-drops of 4-power, efficiently enabling Rhonas, but beyond that weren't doing much. The Seporpard renders my creatures un-counterable, but there's not a whole lot of blue and counterspells running around my meta (it's usually me playing mono U doing that), so not as effective for me. I've cut them for Rampaging Baloths, Silvos, Rogue Elemental, and Wolfbriar Elemental - all of which are superb! Rampaging Baloths can ensure a steady stream of creatures to block after my bigger beaters have attacked, or create an army to pump and attack with, plus it has trample itself. Silvos is another resilient creature, also with trample, that can hang around for a while to ensure Rhonas is enabled - I also think he'd make a great lieutenant for the deck! Wolfbriar is great to have late game (especially after a board wipe), and is made better with the mana doublers I've included (below). It's already happened: "I'll cast Wolfbriar Elemental, with kicker up to 11+." Then proceed to pump them with Kamahl or give them intimidate with Bellowing Tanglewurm. Just awesome.
The fight mechanic cards altogether weren't cutting it for me. One time in the handful of games so far I used one to save myself from lethal commander damage - while nice, I feel they wouldn't be missed. I was always torn with debating using one to take out a utility creature that isn't directly threatening me right now but could be worse later, or save it in the need-to-use-it-now-to-save-my-life situation, if I have the mana open. Since the general theme started to move away from targeting Rhonas with effects, I chose to cut them in the favor of much needed ramp effects in Karametra's Acolyte, Vernal Bloom, and Caged Sun. Wow, the difference these cards make when you want to do "things" and dump mana into Rhonas's, Nylea's or Kamahl's pump abilities. These made huge differences (coupled with Regal Behemoth) in synergy with the draw spells too: I could dump some mana to pump a creature, then use a power-conditional draw spell such as Momentous Fall, Garruk, Primal Hunter, Soul's Majesty, etc. to draw a ton of cards. Definitely worth the change when Forests tap for 2X (or 3X!) the mana.
Speaking of draw, I decided to remove Seal of Primordium and World Breaker for Momentous Fall and Shamanic Revelation. Both have been valuable already (Fall actually saving my Rhonas from being "stolen"/taken control of once). Cutting removal from the deck makes me weary, but if the deck is drawing cards and ramping enough to get things out there and pumped, then it's doing it's "thing" and gets me closer to removing the player.
With drawing a lot of cards, I've actually found myself discarding down to size wayyyyyy more often than I'd like. Greenwarden of Murasa, Seasons Past, and now Eternal Witness help bring back the really important stuff, but drawing into a Reliquary Tower every once in a while gives me more options. Taking out the targeting fight mechanic cards, I decided to cut Arcane Lighthouse.
Just one recommendation: Bow of Nylea. With Rhonas handing out trample left and right, this is an auto-include imo.
That does sound good! I can't decide what to cut though. I'm thinking Kusari-Gama, but that card seems pretty good against go-wide or token based decks that pop up every so-often.
In addition, I'm considering some more mana doublers to make that effect more consistent. Mana Reflection is likely out of my price range, but Dictate of Karametra can be flashed in on the end step before my turn just before I'd need to dump mana into some trample pump abilities, and Heartbeat of Spring is a cheap CMC way to get the effect if I think I can still outpace the boon it gives to opponents as well. Anyone have experience with these?
EDIT: I've actually been proxy-ing the Selvala, Hear of the Wilds because she's a higher priced card too. I can likely cut her for Dictate of Karametra.
You need to be carefull with symmetric mana doublers: you "only" plan to pump some creatures with it, for many opponents, the benefits will be far greater then they are for you.
Also, Rhonas can fight like the best. Ulvenwald Tracker and Arena can give you acces to repeated fighting, with Rhonas this means repeated creature removal due to deathtouch. In. mono. green.
Rhonas's Monument also deserves a spot in there. It's over 9000 with regards to flavor and it gives you extra Rhonas activations for free. Nemesis Mask ensures permanent acces to lure effects.
Another good creature to include is Majestic Myriarch. It will take Rhonas's deathtouch and indestructable every combat, and you can give it trample or it can take trample from another creature if you gave it prior to combat.
You need to be carefull with symmetric mana doublers: you "only" plan to pump some creatures with it, for many opponents, the benefits will be far greater then they are for you.
I know what you mean; I’ve been on the more beneficial end of an opponents mana doubler before. Vernal Bloom is relatively safe in my playgroup since we try to avoid playing the same color or same style/strategy decks all in the same game, so it’s less likely that another primary (at least certainly not mono) green deck will be in the same game when I’m playing Rhonas. Still, I know it’s something to watch. I like Dictate of Karametra because I can flash it in right before I try to finish the game out and it’s less likely that my opponents will get to benefit from it. I’ve felt that this effect is just particularly good and synergistic that Heartbeat of Spring is also tempting. You made really good suggestions with Traverse the Outlands and Boundless Realms though! Definitely a way to boost my mana production, keep the boon one-sided, and thin my deck. I’m thinking of what I can cut for those now.
I definitely noticed Rhonas can fight, but in nearly all the games I played with fight cards, it just wasn’t working out for me. There’s a few reasons why, but one of he main ones was that anything really worth using the removal on was usually protected, either as built-in hexproof or supplemented with equipment. I could take out a utility guy not protected here or there, but mostly was unimpactful. If I wanted to take out someone’s protected dude or commander, then the lure effects like Lure, Tempting Licid, and Revenge of the Hunted have been more effective for me.
Rhonas’s Monument and Majestic Myriarch are interesting. The monument I’m not too sold on, even with the flavor(which I usually totally go for). It cheapens my creatures by 1, but I feel like it’s competing with a lot of other things I’d rather play both as a ramp/cheapen effect and at that CMC. The pump is on theme, but it only makes a difference if I plan to attack that turn (admittedly, is often, but not at every combat step opportunity).
The Myriarch seems really good: a second indescribable deathtouch trampler on everyone’s combat until end of turn is awesome. I can cut a lesser impactful creature like Vorapede. He also enables Rhonas with just Rhonas and himself. How did I miss him?!
What's scarier than a big 'ol trampler? A big 'ol trampler with deathtouch. True story. Bow of Nylea was a good suggestion just for that alone, but I also realize it can provide minor benefits each round of turns if I have enough mana floating around. +1 counters and life can add up over a handful of turns. I decided to cut the Kusari-Gama for the bow. While cute if it works and another way for opponents to be scared when I say I'm going to combat, it also feels like too much efforts to analyze how I might attack someone myself if I want it to actually work: "Okay, if I attack him, he can block with one creature, but then the Kusari, so he might as well block with all, but do I want to assign all damage to the first blocker and hit everyone else, or how ama I working with deathtouch . . . Yeah, straight trample is simpler on my and my playgroup's brains.
Majestic Myriarch is definitely going in. Worst case he's an additional indestructible deathtoucher that enables Rhonas to attack or block just on his own. Rhonas can give him a pump and trample easy peasy. I took out Thornling because the deck is already creeping up there mana-curve-wise and he's the least impactful 5+ CMC creature that doesn't have trample innately.
I had a feeling for a while that I wanted to cut Selvala, Heart of the Wilds. I don't really have a way to untap her to really take advantage (read: bust) of her to produce infinite mana and Genesis Wave or Walking Ballista or whatever. The best I saw with her was using a bunch of mana to pump the team and then tap her to add a ton more in a one-shot kind of deal to sink into a pump ability before combat damage, but now that I'm leaning more on the non-creature mana producers, I'll let her go. That and I didn't realize originally that she's a bit pricier. I had her proxied in while I test the deck, but if I decided to keep this deck in the collection I know I'd have to pick her up somehow. Along the lines of the big mana doublers/producers theme, I decided to add Bear Umbra. Another really powerful card, but surprisingly more affordable than Selvala or a Sword of Feast and Famine. Unlike the sword though, the Umbra untaps all lands as an aattack trigger and not a damage trigger, which, IMO, ensures I can get that effect more often. Fog or Constant Mists? Sure. I still untap. Plus, as an attack trigger, it opens up all my mana to sink into the pump abilities before actual damage. I'm diggin' it.
I decided to try out the Dictate of Karametra over the Mana Reflection - for now. I'mm try out the Dictate in my playgroup a couple weeks and see if I can make it work how I envision it and how often it enables my opponents more. If it's a real issue, then I'll more seriously consider Reflection or another card. I cut Pounce as the last main remnants of the fight cards. The deck is really starting to go in another direction, although it is a powerful mechanic to bring into green with a deathtouch commander, but I don't feel I'll miss it.
I don’t actually have any feedback, but I was thinking a bit back of a mono-green edh, and I had not considered Rhonas. What a great commander idea! That or Nylea, but I actually like Rhonas better.
I definitely noticed Rhonas can fight, but in nearly all the games I played with fight cards, it just wasn’t working out for me. There’s a few reasons why, but one of he main ones was that anything really worth using the removal on was usually protected, either as built-in hexproof or supplemented with equipment. I could take out a utility guy not protected here or there, but mostly was unimpactful. If I wanted to take out someone’s protected dude or commander, then the lure effects like Lure, Tempting Licid, and Revenge of the Hunted have been more effective for me.
I understand what you mean, but I think you can do both. Hour of Promise finding Arena + Arcane Lighthouse lets you handle hexproof, and Lure effects can help when you don't have it. You could also play Glaring Spotlight as a meta call.
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There's definitely pros and cons to both Rhonas and Nylea. Nylea can pump herself and pumps toughness too, but the pump costs more than Rhonas's pump. Rhonas gives deathtouch access in the command zone though. I ultimately decided on Rhonas because I felt it was easier to keep him "online", especially after a board wipe - easier to get a single creature to 4+ power than to get 5 green devotion in those cases. Plus he's not an enchantment and thus isn't susceptible to enchantment exile.
I hadn't considered Creeping Renaissance yet. I can see some applications to get back key pieces of enchantments back from my yard or a ton of creatures if the game goes longer or to recover from wipes (or I'm being milled, and the flashback helps if this card itself is milled). I'm trying to think back on my games though and can't recall when there was a stack of creatures in my yard that I would want back to my hand - I'd usually have a few other worthwhile creatures in my hand to cast instead - and I've included Eternal Witness and Greenwarden of Murasa as bodies to get me back specific cards if needed and the Seasons Past too. I don't have GY filling effects built-in to the deck, so I don't see me being able to abuse it for CA. Is there some other application I'm not thinking of? Can it be better than the GY recovery pieces I'v already included outside of getting all my creatures back to hand after a bigger board wipe?
Quote from Ertai Planeswalker[/quote »
I understand what you mean, but I think you can do both. Hour of Promise finding Arena + Arcane Lighthouse lets you handle hexproof, and Lure effects can help when you don't have it. You could also play Glaring Spotlight as a meta call.
I had both Arena and Arcane Lighthouse in the very first "cut down to 99" version/draft of the deck. Arena didn't seem that great to me once I realized that the opponent gets to choose which creature of his or hers will fight mine (likely Rhonas). There was just too much foreseeable variance with the card: most of the time I imagined it taking out an opponent's most dispensable creature, possibly a token. Only taking out important creatures or commanders IF the opponent didn't have any other creatures and IF that single creature didn't have protection. Seemed very unlikely scenario. Once I started cutting the other fight cards, Arcane Lighthouse seemed to have less and less direct application.
Adding Hour of Promise or similar tutor would make it easier to get the Area and Lighthouse (or Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx or Tectonic Edge or any other land that would bring me great utility at that moment), but with no other fight cards or synergy, I'd be paying 3-4 mana and tapping 1-2 additional lands to fight a single creature of my opponents choice once per turn? I don't think it's worth it. If I started putting a few more fight cards back in to take more advantage of the Lighthouse, then I feel I'd certainly have to cut somewhere else, likely in the mana doubling or creature categories - and I feel this deck needs creatures and mana more than targeted fighting. The fight mechanics can certainly have their uses, and a Pounce has certainly saved me from lethal commander damage on a commander I could actually target, but when I started with 8+ fight cards and making it a sub-theme initially, that's all it had done for me in the early handful of games. I'd like to have both lure and fight things going on, very on-theme with Rhonas himself as a card and with the lore, but practically speaking, I feel I'd have to cut somewhere else that I'm not willing to yet.
Still, adding Arcane Lighthouse and Glaring Spotlight would help with other spot removal like Beast Within and Song of the Dryads. I can consider them for that, but I really with Glaring Spotlight allowed opponents to target each other's stuff too, not just allowing me to target since there can be things on the board that I don't have removal to, but other opponents do.
I worked from memory and did not realize your opponents got to choose their creature, I thought it was literally fight on a land. In that case you’re right: bad card is bad.
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Okay, a couple things going on here. Firstly, I figured the lack of non-creature removal would catch up with me: I lost all the games in the most recent outing because I couldn't deal with non-creature permanents. Secondly, I'm really looking to put this all into actual paper without proxies soon and so budget is a concern. This update takes care of two birds with one stone.
Asceticism is powerful, but also pricey $-wise. I actually only got to play it a single time in all the games so far and I was already in a fairly commanding position and board presence so it was more of a win-more that I didn't even need at that point. I don't think I'll miss it, especially considering I'm adding Acidic Slime to help deal with pesky permanents that throw me off. I chose the Slime over Reclamation Sage because I don't think the difference in mana cost is an issue for this deck, it can hit a land if needed (Maze of IthGlacial Chasm, etc.), and an additional deathtoucher to give trample and buff seems good. I also chose it over re-using World Breaker because it seemed unlikely I would recur him with his own ability and getting him back with one of the Regrowth effect cards would make me want to get the Slime back instead in those instances.
Thrun, the Last Troll seems like the perfect creature for this deck - on curve with Rhonas, 4-power, and super resilient with hexproof and regeneration - but I really wanted to fit some more removal in and this was the next expensive proxy (ironically, he shares that card and lore connection with Asceticism, so it seems fitting they're cut together). I do own a copy of Woodfall Primus, so I added him back to the list from before I posted the decklist. The mana really shouldn't be an issue now that a lot of my ramp effects seem to kick off efficiently, he can come back with persist, enables the Rhonas power threshold, and has innate trample. Stellar all around.
Oh, and your reasons were the same as mine for Arena ultimately not making the cut. Every time I would use it, I would keep forgetting that the opponent got to choose which of their creatures ended up fighting... and it was always depressing to me when I realized I wasted 3 mana and Rhonas was now tapped for no reason.
I would also suggest that if Majestic Myriarch is going to stay in the deck, consider replacing Boreal Druid (or any other 1-drop mana dork) with Birds of Paradise. Might as well give the chimera flying during each combat step, too. There are many instant, sorcery, enchantment aura, and artifact equipment solutions to make Birds of Paradise a viable attacker in the air as well, if desired. It's also quite hilarious when a seemingly innocuous 0/1 has been ignored for many turns, not worthy of an expensive removal spell, only to have it be the recipient of Epic Proportions and Berserk if necessary to fly over with 10+ damage and knock someone out of the game.
Also, the funny thing about Kamahl, Fist of Krosa in my deck is that I rarely use him as a source of Overrun effects. I mainly use him as a deterrent for sweepers and board wipes that threaten my creatures. If I happen to have the mana available if someone attempts it, I say "Okay... well, I'd like to respond. All of your lands are now 1/1 creatures." That usually makes them immediately regret the Wrath of God they just played which has now performed double duty as a one-sided Armageddon against their own lands. Likewise, if Rhonas already has Lure effects, I can use Kamahl, Fist of Krosa on a defending player's untapped lands before my attack step. It forces them to tap their lands in response so they don't lose them (if they're wise enough to realize they can and should do that), but it also helps to ensure that they don't have mana available to respond either during my second main phase or during another player's turn. Yeah, it's dirty... but it works.
If you are curious, this is what I have come up with so far after working on it for a couple of weeks. It tends to focus on lots of ramp, with multiple sources of mana doubling. The Landfall mechanic comes in handy on a few of the cards as well, especially Tireless Tracker, which I initially didn't think would work well, but I was very pleasantly surprised by how solid he has been. There are also multiple land untap sources (Garruk Wildspeaker and Nissa, Worldwaker, Deserted Temple, Seedborn Muse, Bear Umbra) that work brilliantly with Thawing Glaciers. With those in place, it's not uncommon to have Thawing Glaciers throw 4 or 5 Snow-Covered Forests on the battlefield (tapped) before it comes back to my hand at the end of the turn, ready to do it again. The most recent addition to the deck was Golden Guardian, a 4/4 by itself that can activate Rhonas, but can also fight Rhonas to easily flip into Gold-Forge Garrison, a 4/4 factory.
A creature that is cheap to buy, but has huge impact in this style of deck (especially the one it used to be with the fight enablers) would seem to be archetype of endurance. I run it in my yeva list over ascetism precisely because it is a creature. It protects your entire team and gives the middle finger to your opponents protection as well. Since it is a creature, it has a lots of synergies with everything else that triggers off creatures, even if you aren't running creature tutors.
Notable omissions include the fight cards, I understand this. However, I would still consider ulvenwald tracker and the thornbite staff, especially if your mana doublers are pretty consistent. They seem so good not to run!
You have a lot of big guys. Has any thought been given to paleoloth or spearbreaker behemoth? I concede they might be a bit high in the mana cost, though.
I agree completely. All 5 of the 'Archetype of' creatures are impressive. I try to include the relevant colors in just about any deck I build now.
I removed almost every instance of 'fights / deals damage to target creature' mechanic in the deck, which is what I originally envisioned a Rhonas deck to be able to fully leverage and exploit... but it ended up being rather underwhelming. They ended up just being dead cards in my hand when up against decks that weren't creature-heavy or did a very good job of protecting their creatures. I now have no more instants or sorceries that deal that kind of damage and now rely completely on Thornbite Staff and Ulvenwald Tracker. At least I can get those out of my hand and have them ready to do something if the need arises. I prefer Thornbite Staff since it also untaps Rhonas whenever a creature dies (meaning always make sure the opponent's commander is the last one targeted, because that will not untap Rhonas... unless they choose to send their commander to the graveyard for some reason). These are repeatable, and if they are ever destroyed, I will most likely have Eternal Witness and Greenwarden of Murasa to recur them from the graveyard if desired. Problematic lands controlled by opponents are also easy targets for Thornbite Staff and Rhonas with help from Kamahl, Fist of Krosa.
I found Lure-type effects with Rhonas to be far more effective and efficient, which is why I probably need to put Nemesis Mask back in. There are plenty of other combat tricks to consider as well. Like the synergy between Polukranos, World Eater and Bow of Nylea. Declare Polukranos as an attacker, the Bow gives deathtouch at that moment, then before blockers are declared and depending on how much mana you have available, use that opportunity to make him monstrous, pinging several of your opponents' creatures with 1 deathtouch damage, allowing more combat damage to get through.
I had given serious consideration to Spearbreaker Behemoth, but my 7-drop slot is already pretty crowded with Avenger of Zendikar, Engulfing Slagwurm, Hornet Queen, and World Breaker. I'm having a tough time removing any one of those. Avenger of Zendikar and Hornet Queen do wonders for getting a lot of value out of Gaea's Cradle and Itlimoc, Cradle of the Sun. The deck is already rather weak against flyers, and getting 5 creatures with a combined total of 6 deathtouch damage in the air from Hornet Queen is hard to ignore. Also, following Avenger of Zendikar with Mycoloth and devouring all the 0/1 creatures that were just created to then create twice that many 1/1 creatures on your next upkeep (which then keeps doubling on future upkeeps) is particularly amusing. Avenger of Zendikar continues to add +1/+1 counters to those every time a land is played, too. Follow a board presence like that with a Triumph of the Hordes (depending on your play group's feelings on the infect mechanic), and it's lights out for probably everyone at the table simultaneously. Big trample damage is what this deck seems to do best, after all. If anything ends up getting cut in favor of the Spearbreaker Behemoth, it's probably going to be Engulfing Slagwurm. The only thing I don't like about Spearbreaker Behemoth, and probably the only reason I decided against it, is the requirement that a creature must be at least 5 power to become indestructible. For scenarios like that, I tend to prefer using Temur Sabertooth to bounce other creatures like Eternal Witness, Acidic Slime, World Breaker, or even Rhonas (if threatened with exile) back to my hand, in turn giving Temur Sabertooth indestructible.
Another low-cost creature to seriously consider that I have had success with is Predator Ooze. I added this creature for a couple of reasons. First, it's a creature with inherent always-active indestructible that costs only 3 mana, which is already impressive and quite rare. Granted, it's only a 1/1 when it enters the battlefield, but it doesn't take long to get it to 4/4. When that happens, and since it's indestructible and harder to remove, it helps ensure Rhonas stays active longer. Secondly, it has GGG in the mana cost, most definitely not a problem in a mono-colored deck. This means even with just Rhonas, Predator Ooze, and Nylea, God of the Hunt on the field, Nylea meets the devotion requirement and is now a creature. That's 3 indestructible creatures with a combined total of 12-15 trample damage as early as turn 4. Not bad at all for just 3 non-land permanents.
I would also suggest that if Majestic Myriarch is going to stay in the deck, consider replacing Boreal Druid (or any other 1-drop mana dork) with Birds of Paradise. Might as well give the chimera flying during each combat step, too.
That’s a great idea! I didn’t consider Birds of Paradise initially because I thought it was more expensive than what I’m seeing now - almost cheaper than an Eternal Witness these days! I have some store credit to use, so I’ll definitely make that switch.
Quote from MJY71 »
I ended up using Extraplanar Lens instead of Vernal Bloom for one less mana. If you imprint a Snow-Covered Forest with Extraplanar Lens, no one else gets the benefit of double mana when they tap a regular Forest.
Unfortunately, Extraplanar Lense is a bit pricier, and I don’t want to spend about $30 to fit the deck with snow-covered lands. Definitely a good addition, but just not for my decklist.
Quote from weltkrieg »
A creature that is cheap to buy, but has huge impact in this style of deck (especially the one it used to be with the fight enablers) would seem to be archetype of endurance.
My playgroup has angst against a player in the group that, from time to time (not every time, but often enough) brings out Archetype of Endurance and Avacyn, Angel of Hope together (Tooth and Nail, Defense of the Heart, etc.). I want to shy away from the Archetype of Endurance because of that for a while. Great suggestion though - budget Asceticism effect and synergizes with creature effects.
Quote from weltkrieg »
You have a lot of big guys. Has any thought been given to paleoloth or spearbreaker behemoth? I concede they might be a bit high in the mana cost, though.
I actually don’t have a whole lot of innate 5+ power creatures since 4 is the sweet spot for Rhonas, so without pumps, these only affect just under 1/3 of the creatures, which is under 1/9 of the total deck. Good cards if I had more 5+ power without pumps, but just not enough value otherwise, for me.
Quote from MJY71 »
Another low-cost creature to seriously consider that I have had success with is Predator Ooze.
Predator Ooze is . . . interesting. I understand the value you’ve pointed out, even with a T1 Sol Ring, you’d have to drop he Ooze on T4 because of the GGG requirement. That’s 11 trample power on T4 unless you can also give the Ooze haste by T4 after you’ve played a Solg Ring, Rhonas, and then Nylea. God hand for sure though with a three Forests opener. I don’t like that, by itself, it doesn’t enable Rhonas, but I do like that it’s indestructible, which makes it more likely to stick around for three turns to accumulate the necessary +1 counters since there’s no other counter providers or synergies in the deck. Seems okay, but only in God-mode.
I understand completely about the dislike for infect. I feel the same way. It was just an interesting interaction. I do not run Triumph of the Hordes in my deck either, but I've play tested it a few times in XMage, and it is unsurprisingly ridiculous. I also don't run Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger for similar reasons. I don't ever want my deck to not be fun to play against, but that does not mean I don't want it to be challenging though. For instance, I like having answers for one or two problematic lands, but I'm not an Armageddon type of person. I strive not to be 'that guy'.
I understand and agree with your points about Predator Ooze. It was just an idea to consider if you had not already. I have had a few games where everything just seems to play out perfectly from the opening hand. My deck focuses on mana ramp/doubling pretty heavily. It is very possible to have both Rhonas and Predator Ooze out by turn 2, but as you say, 'God Mode' indeed.
All 3 can now attack on T3 for 13 damage (because the Ooze gets a +1/+1 counter when declared as an attacker making it a 2/2). If someone decides to block with a x/2, x/3, or even x/4 creature, there is still 3 green mana left over from casting Nylea and Lightning Greaves to boost Predator Ooze with Rhonas making it a 4/2 and allowing it to kill the blocking creature, making the Ooze a 3/3 with an additional +1/+1 counter.
By T4, the Ooze attacks once again, making it a 4/4.
Thank you for providing feedback. It's always nice to know which ideas are well-received and which ones are not, and why. I like your deck a lot, and there are some really great choices in it. My apologies for recommending certain pricier cards. I neglected to notice where you had specifically mentioned budget constraints.
I feel that way about all the Praetors. I proxied Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite into a deck once and didn't like the "vibe", so took it out.
No worries on the pricier cards as I did actually fail to mention some budget restrictions in the initial deck posting, but I still like to hear them as possible future "upgrades"!
I was able to take a look at your list. I didn't know Nissa, Worldwaker seems so good! Both of her +1 abilities synergize, either getting Rhonas online if the board was just wiped / you have no other creatures, or ramping. Pretty good value to untap four forests if they're producing double or more mana! I should really consider her.
I also like Vedalken Orrery here too. That I do have a copy of and I want to take a look at my list to see what I might cut for it, essentially acting like a better Yeva, Nature's Herald, and doubling up on instant-speed enablers is always nice. Yeva already takes my deck to the next level if I can play her.
Overall, the power level of your deck looks a bit beefier than mine, but there's nothing wrong with that. I personally like variety in my playgroup so chose not to put all the green bombs in like Craterhoof Behemoth, Avenger of Zendikar, Vigor, etc., but there's a reason they're played so much - they're good!
In regards to the substitute for Asceticism, Shaper's Sanctuary might be a good budget replacement. Of course Ascetisism is the better of the two, but it will nevertheless make opponents realy hesitant to keep targeting your stuff as it will anger you and they give you the fuel you need to retaliate.
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Vedalken Orrery is a very powerful card, and it puts you in so much more control of every turn the moment it hits the field. I love the occasional combat tricks that are possible with it, such as 'flashing' in Bow of Nylea during the combat phase for unexpected deathtouch on all my creatures, and/or Bonds of Mortality and activating it to remove indestructible on blockers to completely turn the tide in combat.
It was a little difficult to judge your play style by your deck list with things like Bellowing Tanglewurm being included (which admittedly looks like an amazing creature that I am now considering). I probably need to take a page from your book and focus on making my deck(s) more interactive with others and in the process making the game more entertaining... if for no other reason than to simply make the games last a bit longer. I have constructed so many competitive Standard decks in the past year that it's hard to break free of that mindset. I get the feeling that some of my decks may be not too terribly fun to play against because they tend to 'go for the throat'... just a waiting game for others to see which one of them I'm going to be swinging out big trample damage to and a lot of "Please don't kill me yet" deals being made to stave off the inevitable. I actually end up doing the same thing against a player at my LGS who likes to run an Eldrazi titan deck a lot. But, my decks do seem in line with many of the decks I've seen played on The Command Zone's Game Knights broadcasts (which are very entertaining to watch), so I keep going with it.
I love creature anthem effects, but I generally don't like ones that adversely affects opponent creatures... persistent -x/-x effects, at least. Temporary effects, especially ones that break tempo, I don't mind (like Authority of the Consuls). I don't usually like lock-down/out strategies either. At least give other players a fighting chance.
Oh, and Shapers' Sanctuary looks really nice! Thanks Ertai (love your signature, by the way). I don't know why I tend to constantly neglect cards from newer sets when constructing. I guess I'm just used to powerful cards with low mana costs to only exist in older sets.
I'm glad some of the suggestions were helpful. I appreciate all of the information you have provided so far in this thread as well. It has helped me a great deal, too, as I am a relatively new EDH/Commander player.
EDIT: I just realized that Bellowing Tanglewurm probably wouldn't be the best idea for my deck if I continue to use Lure effects, which I really like. Oh well, that's a shame.
Also decided to cut Tower Above because it targets the creature to force block, which is becoming less relevant as I play more games, especially if I don't draw this until late-game. This made room for Vedalken Orrery, which is an amazing card. Just great. Makes me feel right at home as the U player at heart.
Very nice! Vedalken Orrery has quickly become one of my EDH staple cards, great in almost every deck. Combined with Seedborn Muse it is just over the threshold of utterly broken.
I've been making quite a few changes to mine as well. A couple of recent additions has been Conjurer's Closet (for all of the creatures with very beneficial ETB triggers, like Eternal Witness, Thragtusk, Ulvenwald Hydra, Avenger of Zendikar, Hornet Queen, etc.) and Mirage Mirror (which replaced Rhonas's Monument), both of which have been incredibly useful and, at times, absolutely bonkers, especially Mirage Mirror in larger (4+) multiplayer games. Making a duplicate of my own Primeval Bounty just before I'm about to play several lands or cast a few creatures and/or spells provides absurd value. The Mirror has made the entire deck more fun and interesting to play, as I am constantly surprised and excited by all of the "Oh wow!" moments when I realize what else I can make a copy of on the battlefield at instant speed to completely turn the tables in my favor. I copied an opponent's Animar, Soul of Elements once, cast Verdurous Gearhulk placing all 4 of the +1/+1 counters on my Animar copy (the counters remain on the Mirror after it reverts back), and all of a sudden I'm unloading numerous cost-reduced creatures from my hand.
Why have I not thought about Mirage Mirror copying a mana doubler! That's sweet value. not to mention being able to copy anything else on the entire board each turn. I know I've seen crazy things with it before and it just never clicked with me. Great idea, and I should consider cutting something for that too.
One of the few mana doublers that it doesn't work with is Caged Sun. Since Mirage Mirror has already entered the battlefield before using its ability, you unfortunately don't get to choose the color that it's doubling when Caged Sun is copied.
Another very nice thing about Mirage Mirror is that when you use it to copy someone else's creature that just entered the battlefield (or perhaps one of your own that doesn't have haste), your Mirror copy will not have summoning sickness as long as it's not the same turn that Mirage Mirror entered the battlefield. For example, perhaps I've had a Mirage Mirror sitting on the field for a few turns, then I decide to play a non-haste 15/15 Ulvenwald Hydra during one of my following turns. For 2 additional mana I can have a duplicate 15/15 that I can attack with that turn leaving the original untapped to block. Ridiculous value.
Finally decided what to cut for Mirage Mirror. Baru, Fist of Krosa has felt like me least impactful creature and pretty much every other card has stood out at one time or another as I play more games with the deck. Baru's Forestfall ability just wasn't a whole lot, especially since I'm not running fetch land spells for more land drops, etc. Was nice to get the auto-Trample, but the pump was very small compared to others - even if it's a "free" pump just by playing a Forest. I suppose I should have added Nissa, Worldwaker for Baru - they're both 5-drops that can bring Rhonas "online" by adding a 4-power creature - but the thought of copying one of the mana doublers I feel is too good to pass up until I can cut something else. Also, the Mirror can always copy other creatures with 4 power to get Rhonas online too, and that's just scratching the surface of this little 3-drop.
I’m used to brewing a lot of U related decks, but recently decided to build and put to paper a couple non-blue decks for variety and to step a bit outside of my box, while still having fun doing so. I brewed a lot of lists, but the first commander to paper ended up being Rhonas the Indomitable!
I like Rhonas the Indomitable firstly because he is indestructible so he can be pretty resilient. Secondly, deathtouch seems like a good way to force opponents into difficult combat situations, and other damage enablers (i.e. the fight mechanic or pinging) essentially act as destroy effects. Lastly, his activated ability pumps and adds trample to another creature, thus aiding in his own threshold requirement and adding some more combat nuances for opponents to think about. Subtly, Rhonas can give this pump + evasion (as many times as he’d like without having to tap, provided enough mana) to any creature, not just your own, which can have political implications if you’re willing to use it that way – this is something I wish Thassa, God of the Sea could do at times to help other players deal with problem situations, which could also garner me benefits in the form of political favor or closer to victory.
I perused lists and brainstormed ideas, gathering great inspiration from Honor Basquiat’s “Indomitable Four Drops” list (using one-drop ramps to get Rhonas out as early as T2, followed up by an efficient four-drop 4+ power creature to get Rhonas “online” and swinging right away). My very first paper version took this strategy with a couple tweaks, but in multiplayer play seemed too much like a red aggro deck, swinging 5 commander damage on someone by T3. I would deal a lot of damage to one player (maybe taking someone out early), or would spread a lot of damage around the table, effectively crippling life totals to about half-life around the table, but then I would either run out of gas or opponents would obviously combine forces and energies to come back at me, archenemy style, which becomes difficult to fend off 2-3 payers at once even with a handful of beefy beaters and Rhonas. So, I decided to make the deck a bit slower and a bit more methodical in it’s approach instead of letting Rhonas loose ASAP and hope that no one can keep up.
After a couple small revisions in this new direction, I feel at an impasse, with cuts becoming excruciating, but still I feel the deck may not be wholly focused with efficient synergies. I’m posting the list here with a breakdown of my intended strategy hoping to get some feedback from all you wonderful folks! Here is the current list:
1 Rhonas the Indomitable
Lands (36)
1 Buried Ruin
29 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Homeward Path
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Scavenger Grounds
1 Tectonic Edge
Artifacts (7)
1 Caged Sun
1 Haunted Cloak
1 Helm of the Host
1 Lifecrafter's Bestiary
1 Mirage Mirror
1 Sol Ring
1 Vedalken Orrery
Enchantments (8)
1 Bear Umbra
1 Elemental Bond
1 Lure
1 Rancor
1 Song of the Dryads
1 Sylvan Library
1 Vernal Bloom
1 Vow of Wildness
1 Beast Within
1 Berserk
1 Heroic Intervention
1 Hunter's Insight
Sorceries (9)
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Hunter's Prowess
1 Overwhelming Stampede
1 Revenge of the Hunted
1 Rishkar's Expertise
1 Seasons Past
1 Shamanic Revelation
1 Soul's Majesty
1 Traverse the Outlands
Planeswalkers (1)
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
Creatures (33)
1 Acidic Slime
1 Arbor Elf
1 Baru, Fist of Krosa
1 Bellowing Tanglewurm
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Bramble Sovereign
1 Brawn
1 Drumhunter
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Elvish Mystic
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Garruk's Packleader
1 Goreclaw, Terror of Qal Sisma
1 Greenwarden of Murasa
1 Grothama, All-Devouring
1 Kamahl, Fist of Krosa
1 Karametra's Acolyte
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Majestic Myriarch
1 Nylea, God of the Hunt
1 Paleoloth
1 Pathbreaker Ibex
1 Regal Behemoth
1 Silvos, Rogue Elemental
1 Soul of the Harvest
1 Surrak, the Hunt Caller
1 Tempting Licid
1 Temur Sabertooth
1 Thunderfoot Baloth
1 Wolfbriar Elemental
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Yeva, Nature's Herald
4/30: I'm relaxing my tutors requirement for now with Green Sun's Zenith in the deck and thinking about Primal Command.
Get creatures out. Get trampler and pump enablers out. Get mana doublers and similar to gets lots of mana to drop into the trampler and pump enablers. Attack.
My current vision is semi-Voltron with a pump and trample sub-theme, most exciting me to use as a way for opponents to make that hard decision to keep their armies but take more commander damage, or throw bodies in front of Rhonas but have nearly nothing left to block with the next round. An indestructible trampler with deathtouch is scary to start taking 21 damage from and is deadly effective when blocked, effectively becoming a “destroy” board wipe if trying to prevent that damage. For the time I want to wipe the opponent’s creatures, I’ve included lure effects like the namesake Lure and Tempting Licid. Nothing survives that crosses Rhonas's path: shroud or hexproof? Rhonas doesn't care. Deathtouch, first strike, double strike? Rhonas still doesn't care. Unless the creature has indestructible, it almost certainly isn't surviving a forced block against the K.O. King.
Sol Ring, Green Sun's Zenith into Dryad Arbor, Arbor Elf, Birds of Paradise, Elvish Mystic, Fyndhorn Elves, and Llanowar Elves all help to get Rhonas out early still, but also act as general ramp.
Then, four- and five-drop creatures to get Rhonas online at least to get an indestructible deathtouching blocker out to deter early aggro unless I want to actually use him. I focused on resilient creatures (built-in protection preferred) to prevent having to redeploy too much from a board wipe or unfavorable combat result, such as: Baru, Fist of Krosa, Nylea, God of the Hunt, Silvos, Rogue Elemental, and Temur Sabertooth.
Then, I want to set up trample enablers (Rhonas can target pump and enable trample), particularly for Rhonas to force opponents to take more commander damage or to essentially sacrifice creatures to him. I like the enchantment and equipment variants on Rhonas because it’s less likely that he will be 2-for-1’ed by removal. The trample package I’m going with for now includes: Rancor, Vow of Wildness, Berserk (which can also target an opponent’s creature if necessary to deal with other opponents), Overwhelming Stampede, Revenge of the Hunted, Kamahl, Fist of Krosa, the aforementioned Nylea, God of the Hunt, Pathbreaker Ibex, Thunderfoot Baloth, Goreclaw, Terror of Qal Sisma pumps the team and grants trample on attack (and Rhonas can pump it to ensure it lives the danger zone for the trigger) and a recently added equipment package that includes Haunted Cloak.
The final stage involves using the power of mana doublers to exponentially increase my mana output to dump into the trample pump abilities within Rhonas, Nylea, Kamahl, etc. For now, I'm running Caged Sun, Vernal Bloom, Dictate of Karametra (symmetrical, but with flash I can hope to use it on my turn to finish the game before others can take advantage), and Regal Behemoth. Karametra's Acolyte and Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx help in generating huge chunks of mana as well since 80%+ of the deck are permanents with many green pips to go around.
There are usually some sort of utility or big value creatures that opponents will never attack or block with making it difficult to remove them normally in a deck like this, so I have included a few ways to force blocks such as Lure, Tempting Licid, Tower Above, and Revenge of the Hunted can force them to block Rhonas for a timely death as well.
1. Getting Rhonas through with the various trample enablers, or paving the way to an open board with him via Lure, Tempting Licid, or Revenge of the Hunted. Berserk gets 21 commander damage through with little pump effort.
2. Pump the team with trample effects like Nylea, God of the Hunt, Kamahl, Fist of Krosa, Pathbreaker Ibex, or Overwhelming Stampede, preferably with a way to produce a lot of mana to sink into them.
3. Get Bellowing Tanglewurm to stick and hope the opponent doesn’t have removal or green creatures. Really, I’m not seeing much more win conditions that this since the deck is more linear than other decks I have.
4. Helm of the Host creating an army of indestructible Rhonas's (even if answered right away, a couple of beeft indestructible deathtouchers that can trample pump themselves is still pretty menacing).
4. Assemble the pieces for a soft infinite combo. Special thanks to Ertai Planeswalker for bringing it up and explaining it!
Ghost Quarter and Tectonic Edge for the Maze of Ith and Glacial Chasm users.
Card draw with Lifecrafter’s Bestiary, Elemental Bond, Sylvan Library, Hunter’s Insight, Rishkar’s Expertise, Shamanic Revelation, Soul’s Majesty, Garruk, Primal Hunter, Drumhunter, Garruk’s Packleader, Grothama, All-Devouring, and Soul of the Harvest.
Heroic Intervention for some board protection when opponents think things are getting too hairy.
Seasons Past, Eternal Witness, Greenwarden of Murasa, Paleoloth, and Buried Ruin for some yard recursion for key pieces back to my hand.
LOTS of other Rhonas-enabling 4-drops, notably Polukranos, World Eater, Chameleon Colossus, and Vengevine. I had them in at one time, but cut them for various reasons. For example, I cut Polukranos because this deck doesn’t necessarily produce a boat-ton of mana like most other green decks so leaves his Monstrosity ability lackluster. Same with the Colossus: cool to double, then quadruple him up if he has trample, but very lacking compared to other decks that can actually abuse this more by making him 32+ power regularly.
Speaking of tample:
Pathbreaker Ibex could be good here (more so IMO than Craterhoof Behemoth since I don’t make a while ton of creatures at once), but it has no built-in protection and is more easily removed as a creature effect. I’ve seen it used well and essentially a +5/+5 and trampler enabler each turn with Rhonas out is tempting, but I’m not fully on board with it.I've added this now, and it's sooooo good.I ended up cutting Woodfall Primus. I liked that he has trample, enables Rhonas, and is somewhat resilient with persist, but it was always kind of awkward for me either holding on to him in hand waiting for a juicy target to remove or having him stuck in hand because of the mana cost.I've added him back.Siege Behemoth was a way to ensure damage gets through, but with all the trample felt like he was win-more.
Arena seemed good until I realized the opponent gets to choose which creature they want to have fight Rhonas.
I’m sure I’ve considered other cards as well, but hadn’t recorded them with the other versions.
I feel like this deck is in a good spot now. I've changed the theme/strategy from the "fight" mechanic and select single pumps to Rhonas to more draw, ramp, and more team pump with trample, best aided by mana doubling. It feels much more green goodstuffs, but it's way more effective, and I'm okay with that (for now).
I'd really like to improve on this though, so I'm all ears for way to synergize the elements of draw, ramp, big creatures, and trample - short of Craterhoof Benemoth.
What do you all think of the Rhonas + Trample & Pump + big mana production? Too much going on in one area? Not enough going on? Are there other ways to make this effective? Thanks for the advice!
Current EDH
UThassa, God of the Sea devotion control
WRGTana, the Bloodsower & Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa partners weenie tokens
UUnesh, Criosphinx Sovereign Sphinx tribal
WUTaigam, Ojutai Master tokens on the rebound spellslinger
GRhonas the Indomitable green creature beats
UGRashmi, Eternities Crafter ETB tribal
Retired EDH
WURGKynaios and Tiro of Meletis group hug
URThe Locust God draw swarm
UTalrand, Sky Summoner funsies blue spells
WBObzedat, Ghost Council life gain/drain
OUT
- Thornbite Staff
- Cartouche of Strength
- Wildheart Invoker
- Emporer Crocodile
- Bristling Hydra
- Prowling Serpopard
- Ulvenwald Tracker
- Clear Shot
- Unnatural Aggression
- Seal of Primordium
- World Breaker
- Arcane Lighthouse
IN
+ Eternal Witness
+ Pathbreaker Ibex
+ Kamahl, Fist of Krosa
+ Rampaging Baloths
+ Silvos, Rogue Elemental
+ Wolfbriar Elemental
+ Karametra's Acolyte
+ Vernal Bloom
+ Caged Sun
+ Momentous Fall
+ Shamanic Revelation
+ Reliquary Tower
The Thornbite Staff turns out to be not that great when you don't have a lot of mana to keep using it in succession (more on the mana issue later). There almost always seemed to be a card in the yard I would love to re-use though (draw spells, trample enabler, etc), so I've added Eternal Witness as it has the added 2-power creature value that Rhonas can pump to enable himself if needed, or act as another super-pumped beater from other pump & trample effects.
The targeted trample enablers just weren't cutting it. They would leave me with a really good Rhonas, but lackluster 4 or less powered rest of the team, which wasn't very effective in multiplayer so far. So, I cut Cartouche of Strength and Wildheart Invoker for the repeatable use and creature synergistic Kamahl, Fist of Krosa and Pathbreaker Ibex. Both of them are definitely win conditions more-so than the cuts.
Emporer Crocodile, Bristling Hydra, and Prowling Serpopard are all great 4-or-less-drops of 4-power, efficiently enabling Rhonas, but beyond that weren't doing much. The Seporpard renders my creatures un-counterable, but there's not a whole lot of blue and counterspells running around my meta (it's usually me playing mono U doing that), so not as effective for me. I've cut them for Rampaging Baloths, Silvos, Rogue Elemental, and Wolfbriar Elemental - all of which are superb! Rampaging Baloths can ensure a steady stream of creatures to block after my bigger beaters have attacked, or create an army to pump and attack with, plus it has trample itself. Silvos is another resilient creature, also with trample, that can hang around for a while to ensure Rhonas is enabled - I also think he'd make a great lieutenant for the deck! Wolfbriar is great to have late game (especially after a board wipe), and is made better with the mana doublers I've included (below). It's already happened: "I'll cast Wolfbriar Elemental, with kicker up to 11+." Then proceed to pump them with Kamahl or give them intimidate with Bellowing Tanglewurm. Just awesome.
The fight mechanic cards altogether weren't cutting it for me. One time in the handful of games so far I used one to save myself from lethal commander damage - while nice, I feel they wouldn't be missed. I was always torn with debating using one to take out a utility creature that isn't directly threatening me right now but could be worse later, or save it in the need-to-use-it-now-to-save-my-life situation, if I have the mana open. Since the general theme started to move away from targeting Rhonas with effects, I chose to cut them in the favor of much needed ramp effects in Karametra's Acolyte, Vernal Bloom, and Caged Sun. Wow, the difference these cards make when you want to do "things" and dump mana into Rhonas's, Nylea's or Kamahl's pump abilities. These made huge differences (coupled with Regal Behemoth) in synergy with the draw spells too: I could dump some mana to pump a creature, then use a power-conditional draw spell such as Momentous Fall, Garruk, Primal Hunter, Soul's Majesty, etc. to draw a ton of cards. Definitely worth the change when Forests tap for 2X (or 3X!) the mana.
Speaking of draw, I decided to remove Seal of Primordium and World Breaker for Momentous Fall and Shamanic Revelation. Both have been valuable already (Fall actually saving my Rhonas from being "stolen"/taken control of once). Cutting removal from the deck makes me weary, but if the deck is drawing cards and ramping enough to get things out there and pumped, then it's doing it's "thing" and gets me closer to removing the player.
With drawing a lot of cards, I've actually found myself discarding down to size wayyyyyy more often than I'd like. Greenwarden of Murasa, Seasons Past, and now Eternal Witness help bring back the really important stuff, but drawing into a Reliquary Tower every once in a while gives me more options. Taking out the targeting fight mechanic cards, I decided to cut Arcane Lighthouse.
That's the changes for now!
Current EDH
UThassa, God of the Sea devotion control
WRGTana, the Bloodsower & Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa partners weenie tokens
UUnesh, Criosphinx Sovereign Sphinx tribal
WUTaigam, Ojutai Master tokens on the rebound spellslinger
GRhonas the Indomitable green creature beats
UGRashmi, Eternities Crafter ETB tribal
Retired EDH
WURGKynaios and Tiro of Meletis group hug
URThe Locust God draw swarm
UTalrand, Sky Summoner funsies blue spells
WBObzedat, Ghost Council life gain/drain
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That does sound good! I can't decide what to cut though. I'm thinking Kusari-Gama, but that card seems pretty good against go-wide or token based decks that pop up every so-often.
In addition, I'm considering some more mana doublers to make that effect more consistent. Mana Reflection is likely out of my price range, but Dictate of Karametra can be flashed in on the end step before my turn just before I'd need to dump mana into some trample pump abilities, and Heartbeat of Spring is a cheap CMC way to get the effect if I think I can still outpace the boon it gives to opponents as well. Anyone have experience with these?
EDIT: I've actually been proxy-ing the Selvala, Hear of the Wilds because she's a higher priced card too. I can likely cut her for Dictate of Karametra.
Current EDH
UThassa, God of the Sea devotion control
WRGTana, the Bloodsower & Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa partners weenie tokens
UUnesh, Criosphinx Sovereign Sphinx tribal
WUTaigam, Ojutai Master tokens on the rebound spellslinger
GRhonas the Indomitable green creature beats
UGRashmi, Eternities Crafter ETB tribal
Retired EDH
WURGKynaios and Tiro of Meletis group hug
URThe Locust God draw swarm
UTalrand, Sky Summoner funsies blue spells
WBObzedat, Ghost Council life gain/drain
If you're looking at mana doubling only for you, then Caged Sun, Mana Reflection and Doubling Cube are the ways to go. I know Mana reflection is expensive, but that's just because it's that good! Some additional budget alternatives are Growing Rites of Itlimoc, Traverse the Outlands and Boundless Realms. They will do a lot to help out with your mana.
Also, Rhonas can fight like the best. Ulvenwald Tracker and Arena can give you acces to repeated fighting, with Rhonas this means repeated creature removal due to deathtouch. In. mono. green.
Rhonas's Monument also deserves a spot in there. It's over 9000 with regards to flavor and it gives you extra Rhonas activations for free. Nemesis Mask ensures permanent acces to lure effects.
Another good creature to include is Majestic Myriarch. It will take Rhonas's deathtouch and indestructable every combat, and you can give it trample or it can take trample from another creature if you gave it prior to combat.
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I know what you mean; I’ve been on the more beneficial end of an opponents mana doubler before. Vernal Bloom is relatively safe in my playgroup since we try to avoid playing the same color or same style/strategy decks all in the same game, so it’s less likely that another primary (at least certainly not mono) green deck will be in the same game when I’m playing Rhonas. Still, I know it’s something to watch. I like Dictate of Karametra because I can flash it in right before I try to finish the game out and it’s less likely that my opponents will get to benefit from it. I’ve felt that this effect is just particularly good and synergistic that Heartbeat of Spring is also tempting. You made really good suggestions with Traverse the Outlands and Boundless Realms though! Definitely a way to boost my mana production, keep the boon one-sided, and thin my deck. I’m thinking of what I can cut for those now.
I definitely noticed Rhonas can fight, but in nearly all the games I played with fight cards, it just wasn’t working out for me. There’s a few reasons why, but one of he main ones was that anything really worth using the removal on was usually protected, either as built-in hexproof or supplemented with equipment. I could take out a utility guy not protected here or there, but mostly was unimpactful. If I wanted to take out someone’s protected dude or commander, then the lure effects like Lure, Tempting Licid, and Revenge of the Hunted have been more effective for me.
Rhonas’s Monument and Majestic Myriarch are interesting. The monument I’m not too sold on, even with the flavor(which I usually totally go for). It cheapens my creatures by 1, but I feel like it’s competing with a lot of other things I’d rather play both as a ramp/cheapen effect and at that CMC. The pump is on theme, but it only makes a difference if I plan to attack that turn (admittedly, is often, but not at every combat step opportunity).
The Myriarch seems really good: a second indescribable deathtouch trampler on everyone’s combat until end of turn is awesome. I can cut a lesser impactful creature like Vorapede. He also enables Rhonas with just Rhonas and himself. How did I miss him?!
Thanks for all the suggestions!
Current EDH
UThassa, God of the Sea devotion control
WRGTana, the Bloodsower & Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa partners weenie tokens
UUnesh, Criosphinx Sovereign Sphinx tribal
WUTaigam, Ojutai Master tokens on the rebound spellslinger
GRhonas the Indomitable green creature beats
UGRashmi, Eternities Crafter ETB tribal
Retired EDH
WURGKynaios and Tiro of Meletis group hug
URThe Locust God draw swarm
UTalrand, Sky Summoner funsies blue spells
WBObzedat, Ghost Council life gain/drain
OUT
- Kusari Gama
- Thornling
- Selvala, Heart of the Wilds
- Pounce
IN
+ Bow of Nylea
+ Majestic Myriarch
+ Dictate of Karametra
+ Bear Umbra
What's scarier than a big 'ol trampler? A big 'ol trampler with deathtouch. True story. Bow of Nylea was a good suggestion just for that alone, but I also realize it can provide minor benefits each round of turns if I have enough mana floating around. +1 counters and life can add up over a handful of turns. I decided to cut the Kusari-Gama for the bow. While cute if it works and another way for opponents to be scared when I say I'm going to combat, it also feels like too much efforts to analyze how I might attack someone myself if I want it to actually work: "Okay, if I attack him, he can block with one creature, but then the Kusari, so he might as well block with all, but do I want to assign all damage to the first blocker and hit everyone else, or how ama I working with deathtouch . . . Yeah, straight trample is simpler on my and my playgroup's brains.
Majestic Myriarch is definitely going in. Worst case he's an additional indestructible deathtoucher that enables Rhonas to attack or block just on his own. Rhonas can give him a pump and trample easy peasy. I took out Thornling because the deck is already creeping up there mana-curve-wise and he's the least impactful 5+ CMC creature that doesn't have trample innately.
I had a feeling for a while that I wanted to cut Selvala, Heart of the Wilds. I don't really have a way to untap her to really take advantage (read: bust) of her to produce infinite mana and Genesis Wave or Walking Ballista or whatever. The best I saw with her was using a bunch of mana to pump the team and then tap her to add a ton more in a one-shot kind of deal to sink into a pump ability before combat damage, but now that I'm leaning more on the non-creature mana producers, I'll let her go. That and I didn't realize originally that she's a bit pricier. I had her proxied in while I test the deck, but if I decided to keep this deck in the collection I know I'd have to pick her up somehow. Along the lines of the big mana doublers/producers theme, I decided to add Bear Umbra. Another really powerful card, but surprisingly more affordable than Selvala or a Sword of Feast and Famine. Unlike the sword though, the Umbra untaps all lands as an aattack trigger and not a damage trigger, which, IMO, ensures I can get that effect more often. Fog or Constant Mists? Sure. I still untap. Plus, as an attack trigger, it opens up all my mana to sink into the pump abilities before actual damage. I'm diggin' it.
I decided to try out the Dictate of Karametra over the Mana Reflection - for now. I'mm try out the Dictate in my playgroup a couple weeks and see if I can make it work how I envision it and how often it enables my opponents more. If it's a real issue, then I'll more seriously consider Reflection or another card. I cut Pounce as the last main remnants of the fight cards. The deck is really starting to go in another direction, although it is a powerful mechanic to bring into green with a deathtouch commander, but I don't feel I'll miss it.
Current EDH
UThassa, God of the Sea devotion control
WRGTana, the Bloodsower & Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa partners weenie tokens
UUnesh, Criosphinx Sovereign Sphinx tribal
WUTaigam, Ojutai Master tokens on the rebound spellslinger
GRhonas the Indomitable green creature beats
UGRashmi, Eternities Crafter ETB tribal
Retired EDH
WURGKynaios and Tiro of Meletis group hug
URThe Locust God draw swarm
UTalrand, Sky Summoner funsies blue spells
WBObzedat, Ghost Council life gain/drain
I didn’t see it above, but maybe Creeping Renaissance?
I understand what you mean, but I think you can do both. Hour of Promise finding Arena + Arcane Lighthouse lets you handle hexproof, and Lure effects can help when you don't have it. You could also play Glaring Spotlight as a meta call.
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There's definitely pros and cons to both Rhonas and Nylea. Nylea can pump herself and pumps toughness too, but the pump costs more than Rhonas's pump. Rhonas gives deathtouch access in the command zone though. I ultimately decided on Rhonas because I felt it was easier to keep him "online", especially after a board wipe - easier to get a single creature to 4+ power than to get 5 green devotion in those cases. Plus he's not an enchantment and thus isn't susceptible to enchantment exile.
I hadn't considered Creeping Renaissance yet. I can see some applications to get back key pieces of enchantments back from my yard or a ton of creatures if the game goes longer or to recover from wipes (or I'm being milled, and the flashback helps if this card itself is milled). I'm trying to think back on my games though and can't recall when there was a stack of creatures in my yard that I would want back to my hand - I'd usually have a few other worthwhile creatures in my hand to cast instead - and I've included Eternal Witness and Greenwarden of Murasa as bodies to get me back specific cards if needed and the Seasons Past too. I don't have GY filling effects built-in to the deck, so I don't see me being able to abuse it for CA. Is there some other application I'm not thinking of? Can it be better than the GY recovery pieces I'v already included outside of getting all my creatures back to hand after a bigger board wipe?
I had both Arena and Arcane Lighthouse in the very first "cut down to 99" version/draft of the deck. Arena didn't seem that great to me once I realized that the opponent gets to choose which creature of his or hers will fight mine (likely Rhonas). There was just too much foreseeable variance with the card: most of the time I imagined it taking out an opponent's most dispensable creature, possibly a token. Only taking out important creatures or commanders IF the opponent didn't have any other creatures and IF that single creature didn't have protection. Seemed very unlikely scenario. Once I started cutting the other fight cards, Arcane Lighthouse seemed to have less and less direct application.
Adding Hour of Promise or similar tutor would make it easier to get the Area and Lighthouse (or Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx or Tectonic Edge or any other land that would bring me great utility at that moment), but with no other fight cards or synergy, I'd be paying 3-4 mana and tapping 1-2 additional lands to fight a single creature of my opponents choice once per turn? I don't think it's worth it. If I started putting a few more fight cards back in to take more advantage of the Lighthouse, then I feel I'd certainly have to cut somewhere else, likely in the mana doubling or creature categories - and I feel this deck needs creatures and mana more than targeted fighting. The fight mechanics can certainly have their uses, and a Pounce has certainly saved me from lethal commander damage on a commander I could actually target, but when I started with 8+ fight cards and making it a sub-theme initially, that's all it had done for me in the early handful of games. I'd like to have both lure and fight things going on, very on-theme with Rhonas himself as a card and with the lore, but practically speaking, I feel I'd have to cut somewhere else that I'm not willing to yet.
Still, adding Arcane Lighthouse and Glaring Spotlight would help with other spot removal like Beast Within and Song of the Dryads. I can consider them for that, but I really with Glaring Spotlight allowed opponents to target each other's stuff too, not just allowing me to target since there can be things on the board that I don't have removal to, but other opponents do.
Current EDH
UThassa, God of the Sea devotion control
WRGTana, the Bloodsower & Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa partners weenie tokens
UUnesh, Criosphinx Sovereign Sphinx tribal
WUTaigam, Ojutai Master tokens on the rebound spellslinger
GRhonas the Indomitable green creature beats
UGRashmi, Eternities Crafter ETB tribal
Retired EDH
WURGKynaios and Tiro of Meletis group hug
URThe Locust God draw swarm
UTalrand, Sky Summoner funsies blue spells
WBObzedat, Ghost Council life gain/drain
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OUT
- Asceticism
- Thrun, the Last Troll
IN
+ Acidic Slime
+ Woodfall Primus
Okay, a couple things going on here. Firstly, I figured the lack of non-creature removal would catch up with me: I lost all the games in the most recent outing because I couldn't deal with non-creature permanents. Secondly, I'm really looking to put this all into actual paper without proxies soon and so budget is a concern. This update takes care of two birds with one stone.
Asceticism is powerful, but also pricey $-wise. I actually only got to play it a single time in all the games so far and I was already in a fairly commanding position and board presence so it was more of a win-more that I didn't even need at that point. I don't think I'll miss it, especially considering I'm adding Acidic Slime to help deal with pesky permanents that throw me off. I chose the Slime over Reclamation Sage because I don't think the difference in mana cost is an issue for this deck, it can hit a land if needed (Maze of Ith Glacial Chasm, etc.), and an additional deathtoucher to give trample and buff seems good. I also chose it over re-using World Breaker because it seemed unlikely I would recur him with his own ability and getting him back with one of the Regrowth effect cards would make me want to get the Slime back instead in those instances.
Thrun, the Last Troll seems like the perfect creature for this deck - on curve with Rhonas, 4-power, and super resilient with hexproof and regeneration - but I really wanted to fit some more removal in and this was the next expensive proxy (ironically, he shares that card and lore connection with Asceticism, so it seems fitting they're cut together). I do own a copy of Woodfall Primus, so I added him back to the list from before I posted the decklist. The mana really shouldn't be an issue now that a lot of my ramp effects seem to kick off efficiently, he can come back with persist, enables the Rhonas power threshold, and has innate trample. Stellar all around.
Current EDH
UThassa, God of the Sea devotion control
WRGTana, the Bloodsower & Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa partners weenie tokens
UUnesh, Criosphinx Sovereign Sphinx tribal
WUTaigam, Ojutai Master tokens on the rebound spellslinger
GRhonas the Indomitable green creature beats
UGRashmi, Eternities Crafter ETB tribal
Retired EDH
WURGKynaios and Tiro of Meletis group hug
URThe Locust God draw swarm
UTalrand, Sky Summoner funsies blue spells
WBObzedat, Ghost Council life gain/drain
I ended up using Extraplanar Lens instead of Vernal Bloom for one less mana. If you imprint a Snow-Covered Forest with Extraplanar Lens, no one else gets the benefit of double mana when they tap a regular Forest.
Oh, and your reasons were the same as mine for Arena ultimately not making the cut. Every time I would use it, I would keep forgetting that the opponent got to choose which of their creatures ended up fighting... and it was always depressing to me when I realized I wasted 3 mana and Rhonas was now tapped for no reason.
I would also suggest that if Majestic Myriarch is going to stay in the deck, consider replacing Boreal Druid (or any other 1-drop mana dork) with Birds of Paradise. Might as well give the chimera flying during each combat step, too. There are many instant, sorcery, enchantment aura, and artifact equipment solutions to make Birds of Paradise a viable attacker in the air as well, if desired. It's also quite hilarious when a seemingly innocuous 0/1 has been ignored for many turns, not worthy of an expensive removal spell, only to have it be the recipient of Epic Proportions and Berserk if necessary to fly over with 10+ damage and knock someone out of the game.
Also, the funny thing about Kamahl, Fist of Krosa in my deck is that I rarely use him as a source of Overrun effects. I mainly use him as a deterrent for sweepers and board wipes that threaten my creatures. If I happen to have the mana available if someone attempts it, I say "Okay... well, I'd like to respond. All of your lands are now 1/1 creatures." That usually makes them immediately regret the Wrath of God they just played which has now performed double duty as a one-sided Armageddon against their own lands. Likewise, if Rhonas already has Lure effects, I can use Kamahl, Fist of Krosa on a defending player's untapped lands before my attack step. It forces them to tap their lands in response so they don't lose them (if they're wise enough to realize they can and should do that), but it also helps to ensure that they don't have mana available to respond either during my second main phase or during another player's turn. Yeah, it's dirty... but it works.
If you are curious, this is what I have come up with so far after working on it for a couple of weeks. It tends to focus on lots of ramp, with multiple sources of mana doubling. The Landfall mechanic comes in handy on a few of the cards as well, especially Tireless Tracker, which I initially didn't think would work well, but I was very pleasantly surprised by how solid he has been. There are also multiple land untap sources (Garruk Wildspeaker and Nissa, Worldwaker, Deserted Temple, Seedborn Muse, Bear Umbra) that work brilliantly with Thawing Glaciers. With those in place, it's not uncommon to have Thawing Glaciers throw 4 or 5 Snow-Covered Forests on the battlefield (tapped) before it comes back to my hand at the end of the turn, ready to do it again. The most recent addition to the deck was Golden Guardian, a 4/4 by itself that can activate Rhonas, but can also fight Rhonas to easily flip into Gold-Forge Garrison, a 4/4 factory.
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/decks/2175-rhonas-smash#Details:overview
Notable omissions include the fight cards, I understand this. However, I would still consider ulvenwald tracker and the thornbite staff, especially if your mana doublers are pretty consistent. They seem so good not to run!
You have a lot of big guys. Has any thought been given to paleoloth or spearbreaker behemoth? I concede they might be a bit high in the mana cost, though.
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
I removed almost every instance of 'fights / deals damage to target creature' mechanic in the deck, which is what I originally envisioned a Rhonas deck to be able to fully leverage and exploit... but it ended up being rather underwhelming. They ended up just being dead cards in my hand when up against decks that weren't creature-heavy or did a very good job of protecting their creatures. I now have no more instants or sorceries that deal that kind of damage and now rely completely on Thornbite Staff and Ulvenwald Tracker. At least I can get those out of my hand and have them ready to do something if the need arises. I prefer Thornbite Staff since it also untaps Rhonas whenever a creature dies (meaning always make sure the opponent's commander is the last one targeted, because that will not untap Rhonas... unless they choose to send their commander to the graveyard for some reason). These are repeatable, and if they are ever destroyed, I will most likely have Eternal Witness and Greenwarden of Murasa to recur them from the graveyard if desired. Problematic lands controlled by opponents are also easy targets for Thornbite Staff and Rhonas with help from Kamahl, Fist of Krosa.
I found Lure-type effects with Rhonas to be far more effective and efficient, which is why I probably need to put Nemesis Mask back in. There are plenty of other combat tricks to consider as well. Like the synergy between Polukranos, World Eater and Bow of Nylea. Declare Polukranos as an attacker, the Bow gives deathtouch at that moment, then before blockers are declared and depending on how much mana you have available, use that opportunity to make him monstrous, pinging several of your opponents' creatures with 1 deathtouch damage, allowing more combat damage to get through.
I had given serious consideration to Spearbreaker Behemoth, but my 7-drop slot is already pretty crowded with Avenger of Zendikar, Engulfing Slagwurm, Hornet Queen, and World Breaker. I'm having a tough time removing any one of those. Avenger of Zendikar and Hornet Queen do wonders for getting a lot of value out of Gaea's Cradle and Itlimoc, Cradle of the Sun. The deck is already rather weak against flyers, and getting 5 creatures with a combined total of 6 deathtouch damage in the air from Hornet Queen is hard to ignore. Also, following Avenger of Zendikar with Mycoloth and devouring all the 0/1 creatures that were just created to then create twice that many 1/1 creatures on your next upkeep (which then keeps doubling on future upkeeps) is particularly amusing. Avenger of Zendikar continues to add +1/+1 counters to those every time a land is played, too. Follow a board presence like that with a Triumph of the Hordes (depending on your play group's feelings on the infect mechanic), and it's lights out for probably everyone at the table simultaneously. Big trample damage is what this deck seems to do best, after all. If anything ends up getting cut in favor of the Spearbreaker Behemoth, it's probably going to be Engulfing Slagwurm. The only thing I don't like about Spearbreaker Behemoth, and probably the only reason I decided against it, is the requirement that a creature must be at least 5 power to become indestructible. For scenarios like that, I tend to prefer using Temur Sabertooth to bounce other creatures like Eternal Witness, Acidic Slime, World Breaker, or even Rhonas (if threatened with exile) back to my hand, in turn giving Temur Sabertooth indestructible.
Another low-cost creature to seriously consider that I have had success with is Predator Ooze. I added this creature for a couple of reasons. First, it's a creature with inherent always-active indestructible that costs only 3 mana, which is already impressive and quite rare. Granted, it's only a 1/1 when it enters the battlefield, but it doesn't take long to get it to 4/4. When that happens, and since it's indestructible and harder to remove, it helps ensure Rhonas stays active longer. Secondly, it has GGG in the mana cost, most definitely not a problem in a mono-colored deck. This means even with just Rhonas, Predator Ooze, and Nylea, God of the Hunt on the field, Nylea meets the devotion requirement and is now a creature. That's 3 indestructible creatures with a combined total of 12-15 trample damage as early as turn 4. Not bad at all for just 3 non-land permanents.
That’s a great idea! I didn’t consider Birds of Paradise initially because I thought it was more expensive than what I’m seeing now - almost cheaper than an Eternal Witness these days! I have some store credit to use, so I’ll definitely make that switch.
Unfortunately, Extraplanar Lense is a bit pricier, and I don’t want to spend about $30 to fit the deck with snow-covered lands. Definitely a good addition, but just not for my decklist.
My playgroup has angst against a player in the group that, from time to time (not every time, but often enough) brings out Archetype of Endurance and Avacyn, Angel of Hope together (Tooth and Nail, Defense of the Heart, etc.). I want to shy away from the Archetype of Endurance because of that for a while. Great suggestion though - budget Asceticism effect and synergizes with creature effects.
I actually don’t have a whole lot of innate 5+ power creatures since 4 is the sweet spot for Rhonas, so without pumps, these only affect just under 1/3 of the creatures, which is under 1/9 of the total deck. Good cards if I had more 5+ power without pumps, but just not enough value otherwise, for me.
Predator Ooze is . . . interesting. I understand the value you’ve pointed out, even with a T1 Sol Ring, you’d have to drop he Ooze on T4 because of the GGG requirement. That’s 11 trample power on T4 unless you can also give the Ooze haste by T4 after you’ve played a Solg Ring, Rhonas, and then Nylea. God hand for sure though with a three Forests opener. I don’t like that, by itself, it doesn’t enable Rhonas, but I do like that it’s indestructible, which makes it more likely to stick around for three turns to accumulate the necessary +1 counters since there’s no other counter providers or synergies in the deck. Seems okay, but only in God-mode.
I don’t like infect, so I have not considered Triumph of the Hordes.
Current EDH
UThassa, God of the Sea devotion control
WRGTana, the Bloodsower & Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa partners weenie tokens
UUnesh, Criosphinx Sovereign Sphinx tribal
WUTaigam, Ojutai Master tokens on the rebound spellslinger
GRhonas the Indomitable green creature beats
UGRashmi, Eternities Crafter ETB tribal
Retired EDH
WURGKynaios and Tiro of Meletis group hug
URThe Locust God draw swarm
UTalrand, Sky Summoner funsies blue spells
WBObzedat, Ghost Council life gain/drain
I understand and agree with your points about Predator Ooze. It was just an idea to consider if you had not already. I have had a few games where everything just seems to play out perfectly from the opening hand. My deck focuses on mana ramp/doubling pretty heavily. It is very possible to have both Rhonas and Predator Ooze out by turn 2, but as you say, 'God Mode' indeed.
T1: Forest, Exploration, Forest, Sol Ring
T2: Forest, Forest, Rhonas the Indomitable, Predator Ooze
T3: Forest, Ancient Tomb, Nylea, God of the Hunt (now a 6/6 creature), Lightning Greaves (equip on Nylea for haste)
All 3 can now attack on T3 for 13 damage (because the Ooze gets a +1/+1 counter when declared as an attacker making it a 2/2). If someone decides to block with a x/2, x/3, or even x/4 creature, there is still 3 green mana left over from casting Nylea and Lightning Greaves to boost Predator Ooze with Rhonas making it a 4/2 and allowing it to kill the blocking creature, making the Ooze a 3/3 with an additional +1/+1 counter.
By T4, the Ooze attacks once again, making it a 4/4.
Thank you for providing feedback. It's always nice to know which ideas are well-received and which ones are not, and why. I like your deck a lot, and there are some really great choices in it. My apologies for recommending certain pricier cards. I neglected to notice where you had specifically mentioned budget constraints.
I feel that way about all the Praetors. I proxied Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite into a deck once and didn't like the "vibe", so took it out.
No worries on the pricier cards as I did actually fail to mention some budget restrictions in the initial deck posting, but I still like to hear them as possible future "upgrades"!
I was able to take a look at your list. I didn't know Nissa, Worldwaker seems so good! Both of her +1 abilities synergize, either getting Rhonas online if the board was just wiped / you have no other creatures, or ramping. Pretty good value to untap four forests if they're producing double or more mana! I should really consider her.
I also like Vedalken Orrery here too. That I do have a copy of and I want to take a look at my list to see what I might cut for it, essentially acting like a better Yeva, Nature's Herald, and doubling up on instant-speed enablers is always nice. Yeva already takes my deck to the next level if I can play her.
Overall, the power level of your deck looks a bit beefier than mine, but there's nothing wrong with that. I personally like variety in my playgroup so chose not to put all the green bombs in like Craterhoof Behemoth, Avenger of Zendikar, Vigor, etc., but there's a reason they're played so much - they're good!
Thanks for all the suggestions. I'm eyeing fitting in Birds of Paradise, Nissa, Worldwaker, and Vedalken Orrery.
Current EDH
UThassa, God of the Sea devotion control
WRGTana, the Bloodsower & Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa partners weenie tokens
UUnesh, Criosphinx Sovereign Sphinx tribal
WUTaigam, Ojutai Master tokens on the rebound spellslinger
GRhonas the Indomitable green creature beats
UGRashmi, Eternities Crafter ETB tribal
Retired EDH
WURGKynaios and Tiro of Meletis group hug
URThe Locust God draw swarm
UTalrand, Sky Summoner funsies blue spells
WBObzedat, Ghost Council life gain/drain
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
It was a little difficult to judge your play style by your deck list with things like Bellowing Tanglewurm being included (which admittedly looks like an amazing creature that I am now considering). I probably need to take a page from your book and focus on making my deck(s) more interactive with others and in the process making the game more entertaining... if for no other reason than to simply make the games last a bit longer. I have constructed so many competitive Standard decks in the past year that it's hard to break free of that mindset. I get the feeling that some of my decks may be not too terribly fun to play against because they tend to 'go for the throat'... just a waiting game for others to see which one of them I'm going to be swinging out big trample damage to and a lot of "Please don't kill me yet" deals being made to stave off the inevitable. I actually end up doing the same thing against a player at my LGS who likes to run an Eldrazi titan deck a lot. But, my decks do seem in line with many of the decks I've seen played on The Command Zone's Game Knights broadcasts (which are very entertaining to watch), so I keep going with it.
I love creature anthem effects, but I generally don't like ones that adversely affects opponent creatures... persistent -x/-x effects, at least. Temporary effects, especially ones that break tempo, I don't mind (like Authority of the Consuls). I don't usually like lock-down/out strategies either. At least give other players a fighting chance.
Oh, and Shapers' Sanctuary looks really nice! Thanks Ertai (love your signature, by the way). I don't know why I tend to constantly neglect cards from newer sets when constructing. I guess I'm just used to powerful cards with low mana costs to only exist in older sets.
I'm glad some of the suggestions were helpful. I appreciate all of the information you have provided so far in this thread as well. It has helped me a great deal, too, as I am a relatively new EDH/Commander player.
EDIT: I just realized that Bellowing Tanglewurm probably wouldn't be the best idea for my deck if I continue to use Lure effects, which I really like. Oh well, that's a shame.
IN
+ Birds of Paradise
+ Vedalken Orrery
OUT
- Boreal Druid
- Tower Above
Took MJY71's advice for switching Borreal Druid for Birds of Paradise. Much more utility there.
Also decided to cut Tower Above because it targets the creature to force block, which is becoming less relevant as I play more games, especially if I don't draw this until late-game. This made room for Vedalken Orrery, which is an amazing card. Just great. Makes me feel right at home as the U player at heart.
Still considering Nissa, Worldwaker and Traverse the Outlands looks promising. Can't decide cuts though!
Current EDH
UThassa, God of the Sea devotion control
WRGTana, the Bloodsower & Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa partners weenie tokens
UUnesh, Criosphinx Sovereign Sphinx tribal
WUTaigam, Ojutai Master tokens on the rebound spellslinger
GRhonas the Indomitable green creature beats
UGRashmi, Eternities Crafter ETB tribal
Retired EDH
WURGKynaios and Tiro of Meletis group hug
URThe Locust God draw swarm
UTalrand, Sky Summoner funsies blue spells
WBObzedat, Ghost Council life gain/drain
I've been making quite a few changes to mine as well. A couple of recent additions has been Conjurer's Closet (for all of the creatures with very beneficial ETB triggers, like Eternal Witness, Thragtusk, Ulvenwald Hydra, Avenger of Zendikar, Hornet Queen, etc.) and Mirage Mirror (which replaced Rhonas's Monument), both of which have been incredibly useful and, at times, absolutely bonkers, especially Mirage Mirror in larger (4+) multiplayer games. Making a duplicate of my own Primeval Bounty just before I'm about to play several lands or cast a few creatures and/or spells provides absurd value. The Mirror has made the entire deck more fun and interesting to play, as I am constantly surprised and excited by all of the "Oh wow!" moments when I realize what else I can make a copy of on the battlefield at instant speed to completely turn the tables in my favor. I copied an opponent's Animar, Soul of Elements once, cast Verdurous Gearhulk placing all 4 of the +1/+1 counters on my Animar copy (the counters remain on the Mirror after it reverts back), and all of a sudden I'm unloading numerous cost-reduced creatures from my hand.
Current EDH
UThassa, God of the Sea devotion control
WRGTana, the Bloodsower & Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa partners weenie tokens
UUnesh, Criosphinx Sovereign Sphinx tribal
WUTaigam, Ojutai Master tokens on the rebound spellslinger
GRhonas the Indomitable green creature beats
UGRashmi, Eternities Crafter ETB tribal
Retired EDH
WURGKynaios and Tiro of Meletis group hug
URThe Locust God draw swarm
UTalrand, Sky Summoner funsies blue spells
WBObzedat, Ghost Council life gain/drain
Another very nice thing about Mirage Mirror is that when you use it to copy someone else's creature that just entered the battlefield (or perhaps one of your own that doesn't have haste), your Mirror copy will not have summoning sickness as long as it's not the same turn that Mirage Mirror entered the battlefield. For example, perhaps I've had a Mirage Mirror sitting on the field for a few turns, then I decide to play a non-haste 15/15 Ulvenwald Hydra during one of my following turns. For 2 additional mana I can have a duplicate 15/15 that I can attack with that turn leaving the original untapped to block. Ridiculous value.
IN
+ Mirage Mirror
OUT
- Baru, Fist of Krosa
Finally decided what to cut for Mirage Mirror. Baru, Fist of Krosa has felt like me least impactful creature and pretty much every other card has stood out at one time or another as I play more games with the deck. Baru's Forestfall ability just wasn't a whole lot, especially since I'm not running fetch land spells for more land drops, etc. Was nice to get the auto-Trample, but the pump was very small compared to others - even if it's a "free" pump just by playing a Forest. I suppose I should have added Nissa, Worldwaker for Baru - they're both 5-drops that can bring Rhonas "online" by adding a 4-power creature - but the thought of copying one of the mana doublers I feel is too good to pass up until I can cut something else. Also, the Mirror can always copy other creatures with 4 power to get Rhonas online too, and that's just scratching the surface of this little 3-drop.
Current EDH
UThassa, God of the Sea devotion control
WRGTana, the Bloodsower & Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa partners weenie tokens
UUnesh, Criosphinx Sovereign Sphinx tribal
WUTaigam, Ojutai Master tokens on the rebound spellslinger
GRhonas the Indomitable green creature beats
UGRashmi, Eternities Crafter ETB tribal
Retired EDH
WURGKynaios and Tiro of Meletis group hug
URThe Locust God draw swarm
UTalrand, Sky Summoner funsies blue spells
WBObzedat, Ghost Council life gain/drain