Hi I love the deck! I made an account to ask what you think about Night Incarnate from the upcoming c18 set. Any other thoughts on the new c18 cards coming out?
Thanks again for the great deck, I'm building it in paper now!
Hi PenThief! Welcome to the Dungeoneers!
I've personally been pretty disappointed with C18 as it hasn't given us any interesting tools to work with. I've gone over the list at least 3 times to make sure I didn't miss anything and still can't anything worth including. There were only three cards that were remotely interesting for the deck (one being the card you mentioned), but none of them are worth running in particular since everything else we run is just better.
So here are my thoughts on the only applicable cards in C18 for this list:
- Night Incarnate - Interesting card, but pretty self-destructive for what this deck wants to do. It kills Grenzo at 3 meaning we either slow ourselves down after using it, or we have to constantly cast Grenzo at 4. But even then, our deck is all about building a large board that we can abuse through the plethora of combos available to us. So wiping the board is almost always disadvantageous.
- Treasure Nabber - Probably the only one that's worth testing since it can steal artifacts and turn that mana directly into additional flips. However, it's potential for value does not guarantee value. And towards the end of the game when everyone already has more mana than they need, this creature is essentially a worthless flip. So it's too situational for my tastes.
- Reality Scramble - This card....this card was the greatest disappointment of the whole C18 reveal. I've never been so excited in my initial reading to then be immediately disappointed by the ending text.
Transform one of our creatures into another creature off the top?
Sounds good.
Put the transformed creature on the bottom?
Phenomenal!
Retrace?
An abusable noncreature deadflip is amazing!
However, what kills the card for me is that all of those noncreature cards you reveal are placed back on the bottom (thus inhibiting your future flips). And to make matters worse, it's random. If it put those cards in the graveyard, it would have been an amazing addition, but as it exists right now it's a hard pass.
That's it for my C18 review. Hopefully the guilds of Ravnica can give us a little more Rakdos love.
Thanks for the warm welcome! Great reviews, I appreciate you taking the time to do that for the new cards coming out. I was feeling similarly about c18 so far, though maybe because I've had this deck on my mind exclusively since finding this Primer. I'm really excited to play this at fnm this week!
Thanks for the warm welcome! Great reviews, I appreciate you taking the time to do that for the new cards coming out. I was feeling similarly about c18 so far, though maybe because I've had this deck on my mind exclusively since finding this Primer. I'm really excited to play this at fnm this week!
Always happy to help! Let me know how the games go
Solid list man! I've been looking for a new Rakdos general and had just decided on Grenzo before seeing this list. I had my doubts about the decklist but coming across this really well made primer has put those doubts to rest.
I might be crazy but I'm going to try an x=4 varient so I can use a few goodies an x=3 list cannot:
Solid list man! I've been looking for a new Rakdos general and had just decided on Grenzo before seeing this list. I had my doubts about the decklist but coming across this really well made primer has put those doubts to rest.
I might be crazy but I'm going to try an x=4 varient so I can use a few goodies an x=3 list cannot:
Perhaps 6 cards isn't enough to justify x=2 but I want to try it anyway.
That sounds like a fun experiment! I don't think you're crazy at all for trying something like that. My only warning though is that you might find Grenzo gets way more expensive much more quickly if your opponents decide to hate on you.
Just came across your list. I also run a Grenzo deck, although I use him at 4. One card you should try is Madblind Mountain. It really helps with hideaway type effects - if you whiff, your next four slots aren't wasted anymore. And it has the mountain type, so it's easier to tutor.
Just came across your list. I also run a Grenzo deck, although I use him at 4. One card you should try is Madblind Mountain. It really helps with hideaway type effects - if you whiff, your next four slots aren't wasted anymore. And it has the mountain type, so it's easier to tutor.
Are there any 4 power creatures you recommend besides the ones I mentioned? Sidisi is a really good one I forgot to mention before.
Also, can you go into more depth with Madblind Mountain? I'm not understanding what you're doing with it.
I think he means if you play a Hideaway land, hide something away, but don't like the three cards you bottomed, you can shuffle and be back to random hits.
Madblind Mountain - With Clone Shell and the hideaway lands, you're probably going to end up with some lands on the bottom of the deck. Stack the creatures at the bottom, and once you've Grenzoed those out, you can activate Madblind to shuffle your deck and not have to waste Grenzo activations burning through the chaff.
This is an excellent primer and it's been a real pleasure to read it all. I'm also very flattered that your inspiration comes from my own list, it's always nice to see new ideas for the same commander and I think that's what makes this format so exciting.
Here are some thoughts and questions I have regarding your list:
How has Junktroller been working out for you? For me it's always been a disappointing-non-haste-one-use-per-turn-only Epitaph Golem and I was never really happy to flip him. I'd much rather play Whisper, Blood Liturgist as a (still non-haste) recursion engine because it doesn't require a Grenzo activation to bring the creature back. It also has built in sacrifice, which isn't even a downside in this deck most of the time.
About Tel-Jilad Stylus and Reito Lantern: Are the added ETB effects really worth the risk and mana investement of flipping them in the graveyard? I used them in early versions of my build but was always disappointed of playing them, whether it was from my hand or through recursion because even then I felt that I could have used my recursion effects on better artifacts such as Meteor Golem or Duplicant.
Have you ever been able to make an explosive play with Furystoke Giant? I cut it out of my list because I wanted to test some other cards but I never actually got to flip him and now I'm thinking about brigning him back. What are your thoughts on the card?
Goblin Sharpshooter and Deathbringer Thoctar: I've always hesitated about running both because they basically have the same effect. In the end, I chose the Sharoshooter because of the reduced cost and because it was a Goblin. Why did you choose to include both in your list?
Again, thank you for the amazing primer. It was a very interesting read!
This is an excellent primer and it's been a real pleasure to read it all. I'm also very flattered that your inspiration comes from my own list, it's always nice to see new ideas for the same commander and I think that's what makes this format so exciting.
Here are some thoughts and questions I have regarding your list:
How has Junktroller been working out for you? For me it's always been a disappointing-non-haste-one-use-per-turn-only Epitaph Golem and I was never really happy to flip him. I'd much rather play Whisper, Blood Liturgist as a (still non-haste) recursion engine because it doesn't require a Grenzo activation to bring the creature back. It also has built in sacrifice, which isn't even a downside in this deck most of the time.
About Tel-Jilad Stylus and Reito Lantern: Are the added ETB effects really worth the risk and mana investement of flipping them in the graveyard? I used them in early versions of my build but was always disappointed of playing them, whether it was from my hand or through recursion because even then I felt that I could have used my recursion effects on better artifacts such as Meteor Golem or Duplicant.
Have you ever been able to make an explosive play with Furystoke Giant? I cut it out of my list because I wanted to test some other cards but I never actually got to flip him and now I'm thinking about brigning him back. What are your thoughts on the card?
Goblin Sharpshooter and Deathbringer Thoctar: I've always hesitated about running both because they basically have the same effect. In the end, I chose the Sharoshooter because of the reduced cost and because it was a Goblin. Why did you choose to include both in your list?
Again, thank you for the amazing primer. It was a very interesting read!
It is a massive honor to know that I have provided inspiration to the user that first inspired me to build this list. Thanks for helping me find my love for my favorite commander ever
Here are my responses to your questions/thoughts:
- Junktroller - Honestly, this is probably the next card on the chopping block. The fact that it's a fairly fragile creature, can only flip once, and needs help to have haste has left a lot to be desired. I primarily added it for it's ability to create another source of infinite with Thornbite Staff and Ashnod's Altar, but I think I have yet to ever run into this scenario. So I agree with your assessment that this might need to go.
- Tel-Jilad Stylus - I really love this card a lot, and have found that the instant recursion of our powerful ETB's can be extremely powerful. This alone has saved several game losses where I could instantly reflip Gray Merchant of Asphodel to gain 20+ life, netted me tons of mana by chump blocking with Solemn Simulacrum and stylusing it before combat damage is dealt, and also is an important way to save Grenzo from single target removal using only the Stylus and himself.
And being able to re-use a creature already on the field (like Meteor Golem) is something that is vital when a sac outlet/recursion outlet isn't available.
- Reito Lantern - This is in as a more sturdy form of recursion. And though it might be a bit of investment to recur it if it's accidentally flipped, being able to instantly grab your best ETB's for 5 mana has proven extremely powerful. Obviously, Epitaph Golem is better, but he's much more fragile as a creature which is why I prefer to have this alternate (harder to kill) version.
Also, it still creates the infinite loop with Ashnod's Altar and Siege-gang Commander/Marionette Master.
- Furystoke Giant - Another card that I wasn't sure about initially, but has pulled massive weight for me. This deck naturally builds up a hefty board state with the amount of creatures, and giving 10+ creatures on the field the ability to tap for 2 damage can often mean a selective board wipe or an instant kill to a player. And since everything is typically done on the end of the opponent's turn, you can sac the Giant to do it all over again on your next untap step. I would highly recommend slotting him back in as he's highly effective, even with a small board state.
And the fact that he can be sacced twice to Ashnod's Altar is just an added bonus.
- Deathbringer Thoctar/Goblin Sharpshooter - With the amount of saccing I do with this list, these both have been absolutely insane, and I can't tell you how many times these two cards have won me the game. Deathbringer Thoctar especially has been one of my favorite powerhouses and my playgroup's most feared drops. Any creature that dies gives you a stored free ping to anything!!!! "Oh you played Avenger of Zendikar? Remove a counter, kill a plant, gain a counter, remove a counter, kill a plant, etc."
Token decks are crippled, and swinging in at a player with a 30/30+ Thoctar, killing that player, and then removing 27 counters to kill another player has happened more times than I can count.
Hope that answers your questions as to why I chose these cards and keep sticking with them! But I'll probably have to follow your lead on the switch out from Junktroller to Whisper, Blood Liturgist
Have you looked at Emrakul's Hatcher? It's not quite free to play from hand like the priests are, but it gives the Mana to you in the form of creatures that you can sacrifice for something better (like the altar), and has a slightly tougher body if you need it.
FearDReaper: There were quite a few creatures I forgot to include in that list. I'm currently getting my cards professionally sorted, so I'm going to have to rebuild my deck, but I have an early deck list up here. I'm going to have to cut some non-basic land for more swamps, but it's close.
So I've been taking this to my LGS that does fnm commander pods of 4. It has been really successful and superfun, albeit a bit crunchy some turns figuring out the best course of action, at least till I get more used to piloting it.
My question now is, whats the easiest way to explain the grenzo vs. graveyard interaction (like leyline of the void ect) to new folks, as I have no idea who im playing any given game and dont actually know many people there lol. I tried to explain that even with leyline out, the creature, if applicable, will still go into play from ANY public zone, but i got so much pushback on multiple nights from different people.
Idk lol i guess i was just looking for a suggest of how to word it to new folks, because I love this deck rn, and im not gonna stop playing it now that I got it built (at least not for a bit)
- Deathbringer Thoctar/Goblin Sharpshooter - With the amount of saccing I do with this list, these both have been absolutely insane, and I can't tell you how many times these two cards have won me the game. Deathbringer Thoctar especially has been one of my favorite powerhouses and my playgroup's most feared drops. Any creature that dies gives you a stored free ping to anything!!!! "Oh you played Avenger of Zendikar? Remove a counter, kill a plant, gain a counter, remove a counter, kill a plant, etc."
Token decks are crippled, and swinging in at a player with a 30/30+ Thoctar, killing that player, and then removing 27 counters to kill another player has happened more times than I can count.
This plus I've been running Archetype of Finality which turns both of the above into one-sided wraths in addition to making our smallest 1 power tokens into potent threats on offense (with opponents less likely to block) and defense (as no one wants to trade with little deathtouchers).
So I had my first game with Grenzo the other day, I lost but I gained some valuable information from playing the deck on what changes I should make. It really is a unique deck and I like it a lot.
My own list needs a bit more disruption and I found that my card draw did very little to further the strategy aside from let me play lands. Drawing lands still seems really important so I want to keep a bit of card draw in the deck for that reason but it feels so awkward to have a full hand and not use it at all as a resource. This made me wonder about creatures with discard outlets so I started looking at the old shellshapers to see if there was anything worth using. One that stands out for me is Bog Witch. Its ramp, nuff said. Others I kind of want to test out are Hammer Mage, Seismic Mage, Notorious Assassin and Greel, Mind Raker. Thoughts?
- Furystoke Giant - Another card that I wasn't sure about initially, but has pulled massive weight for me. This deck naturally builds up a hefty board state with the amount of creatures, and giving 10+ creatures on the field the ability to tap for 2 damage can often mean a selective board wipe or an instant kill to a player. And since everything is typically done on the end of the opponent's turn, you can sac the Giant to do it all over again on your next untap step. I would highly recommend slotting him back in as he's highly effective, even with a small board state.
And the fact that he can be sacced twice to Ashnod's Altar is just an added bonus.
- Deathbringer Thoctar/Goblin Sharpshooter - With the amount of saccing I do with this list, these both have been absolutely insane, and I can't tell you how many times these two cards have won me the game. Deathbringer Thoctar especially has been one of my favorite powerhouses and my playgroup's most feared drops. Any creature that dies gives you a stored free ping to anything!!!! "Oh you played Avenger of Zendikar? Remove a counter, kill a plant, gain a counter, remove a counter, kill a plant, etc."
Token decks are crippled, and swinging in at a player with a 30/30+ Thoctar, killing that player, and then removing 27 counters to kill another player has happened more times than I can count.
This kinda makes me want to try those two cards out I'll see if I can make room to give them a chance!
I think Bog Witch is a really good idea. I've recently bought one and added it to my list for playtesting. Same with Isolated Watchtower. I can see it working in this deck, though it's kind of mana hungry so we'll see... I'll let you know how it goes when I get to test those changes!
Also, about Forge of Heroes, to me it just looks like mana you could spend on X anyway to make him enter with a counter right? Of course there is the very narrow case of if you protect him with Tel-Jilad Stylus or champion him with Lightning Crafter, but I'm not sure if it makes it worth it to add yet another colorless source of mana to the deck.
Speaking of lands, Drownyard Temple and Dakmor Salvage have been two incredible recent additions to the deck for me. Their respective abilities reduce the feelbad of flipping them with Grenzo. Drownyard Temple turns into some slow ramp if you need it, and Dakmor Salvage fills your graveyard with more stuff if you want to make sure to draw a land. I have also rencently replaced my Goblin Matron with an Imperial Recruiter and my Manakin with a Soldevi Adnate for some very, very good results!
So I've been taking this to my LGS that does fnm commander pods of 4. It has been really successful and superfun, albeit a bit crunchy some turns figuring out the best course of action, at least till I get more used to piloting it.
My question now is, whats the easiest way to explain the grenzo vs. graveyard interaction (like leyline of the void ect) to new folks, as I have no idea who im playing any given game and dont actually know many people there lol. I tried to explain that even with leyline out, the creature, if applicable, will still go into play from ANY public zone, but i got so much pushback on multiple nights from different people.
Idk lol i guess i was just looking for a suggest of how to word it to new folks, because I love this deck rn, and im not gonna stop playing it now that I got it built (at least not for a bit)
Hey PenThief,
I've had pushback too when explaining this specific rule before. The interaction works in your favor due to the fact that Grenzo does not specify zone of retrieval. He says put the creature into the graveyard, and then put it into play (unspecified from where) if it's power is equal to or less than Grenzo's.
The specific rule that helps Grenzo is 400.7h. If an effect causes an object to move to a public zone, other parts of that effect can find that object. If the cost of a spell or ability causes an object to move to a public zone, that spell or ability's effects can find that object.
This is the reason that Oblivion Ring doesn't bring back your commander from the command zone when destroyed. Because it specifies return the EXILED card to play.
And it's the same reason Banishing Light WILL return your commander to play even if you choose to put it into the command zone. Banishing Light doesn't specify the card has to remain in exile, and thus if the card is in a public zone, it's retrievable. So I'd encourage people to look up the rulings if they're unsure or share this rule with them. If not, show them some of the topics others have already made. There's plenty of them. Hope this helps!
Extra note added: This only works with replacement effects. If your opponent exiles your commander with Banishing Light and you choose to send to the command zone, and then you play your commander and he gets destroyed and resent to the command zone, Banishing Light will no longer return your commander. This is because your commander has actively switched zones (CZ to play, and then back to CZ) and thus is no longer retrievable by Banishing Light.
Have you looked at Emrakul's Hatcher? It's not quite free to play from hand like the priests are, but it gives the Mana to you in the form of creatures that you can sacrifice for something better (like the altar), and has a slightly tougher body if you need it.
I like this a lot and may have to find a spot for it. It's essentially another priest that can also serve as an alternative source of infinite with Ashnod's Altar.
This plus I've been running Archetype of Finality which turns both of the above into one-sided wraths in addition to making our smallest 1 power tokens into potent threats on offense (with opponents less likely to block) and defense (as no one wants to trade with little deathtouchers).
I also like this card with the synergy it provides to the creatures you mentioned in addition to Furystoke Giant. The harest part will be trying to find a space for another strong creature...
I just saw Forge of Heroes in my c18 deck and realized its really great for grenzo to keep him on 3
I considered it, but it's definitely not an auto-include in my opinion. You'll be paying the mana anyways, so tapping it for the token is essentially the same thing. The benefit is really when Grenzo temporarily leaves play, but I want to be cautious with adding too many non-colored lands. I'll play test it and see if it helps enough to warrant an inclusion.
I typically would rather use the two mana to flip and see what I can get (I still enjoy the luck aspect of the deck), but I do think this can be a potential inclusion with the scry AND potential ramp it offers. I'll also play test this out.
Speaking of lands, Drownyard Temple and Dakmor Salvage have been two incredible recent additions to the deck for me. Their respective abilities reduce the feelbad of flipping them with Grenzo. Drownyard Temple turns into some slow ramp if you need it, and Dakmor Salvage fills your graveyard with more stuff if you want to make sure to draw a land. I have also rencently replaced my Goblin Matron with an Imperial Recruiter and my Manakin with a Soldevi Adnate for some very, very good results!
Why do there have to be so many good colorless lands!!!! We need colored mana too, friends! Lol, but in all seriousness I do like the idea of having non-feelbad lands to flip. So I'll definitely replace a Swamp with Dakmore Salvage and see if I can find a spot to fit in Drownyard Temple as well. Also, I still have to find a spot for Soldevi Adnate as well >>
Also we may have found a new addition in the newly revealed Goblin Cratermaker!!! Pay 1 colorless to destroy target Eldrazi, Karn, or artifact seems pretty good...
When I have the time, I'm going to put out my review of the set, but the big takeaway is Plaguecrafter is our money card for the set. It's a direct upgrade on Fleshbag Marauder. He hits planeswalkers and makes opponents start discarding cards once we've abused it enough. Definitely an immediate auto-include
I recall some talk about Whisper, but I've got to sing her praises. She's infinitely better than Junktroller.
Since she's independent of Grenzo, she can help hold up mana in exchange for spent etb creatures, and her sacrifice cost means she is part of another infinite combo win-con.
If the Army-in-a-Can creature is Marionette Master, you win alone through her damage. Siege Gang provides infinite 1/1 goblins. I also have Mogg War Marshal in my own build, which means he wins the game depending on who your random dork is (still oppressive if it doesn't win). Kiki/Phyrexian Delver/Puppeteer Clique can pull bad impressions of the bodies depending on what's in who's graves.
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Hi PenThief! Welcome to the Dungeoneers!
I've personally been pretty disappointed with C18 as it hasn't given us any interesting tools to work with. I've gone over the list at least 3 times to make sure I didn't miss anything and still can't anything worth including. There were only three cards that were remotely interesting for the deck (one being the card you mentioned), but none of them are worth running in particular since everything else we run is just better.
So here are my thoughts on the only applicable cards in C18 for this list:
- Night Incarnate - Interesting card, but pretty self-destructive for what this deck wants to do. It kills Grenzo at 3 meaning we either slow ourselves down after using it, or we have to constantly cast Grenzo at 4. But even then, our deck is all about building a large board that we can abuse through the plethora of combos available to us. So wiping the board is almost always disadvantageous.
- Treasure Nabber - Probably the only one that's worth testing since it can steal artifacts and turn that mana directly into additional flips. However, it's potential for value does not guarantee value. And towards the end of the game when everyone already has more mana than they need, this creature is essentially a worthless flip. So it's too situational for my tastes.
- Reality Scramble - This card....this card was the greatest disappointment of the whole C18 reveal. I've never been so excited in my initial reading to then be immediately disappointed by the ending text.
That's it for my C18 review. Hopefully the guilds of Ravnica can give us a little more Rakdos love.
Always happy to help! Let me know how the games go
I might be crazy but I'm going to try an x=4 varient so I can use a few goodies an x=3 list cannot:
Mindslicer/Flayer of the Hardbound - Amazing cards as you pointed out in the cards not included section.
Fanatic of Mogis - Half of Gary still seems good to me.
Ashenmore Liege - 4 power version of Mad Auntie
Neheb, the Eternal - All the manas!
Angrath's Marauders - Turning cards sideways just became a legit win-con
Perhaps 6 cards isn't enough to justify x=2 but I want to try it anyway.
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
That sounds like a fun experiment! I don't think you're crazy at all for trying something like that. My only warning though is that you might find Grenzo gets way more expensive much more quickly if your opponents decide to hate on you.
Also, can you go into more depth with Madblind Mountain? I'm not understanding what you're doing with it.
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
Madblind Mountain - With Clone Shell and the hideaway lands, you're probably going to end up with some lands on the bottom of the deck. Stack the creatures at the bottom, and once you've Grenzoed those out, you can activate Madblind to shuffle your deck and not have to waste Grenzo activations burning through the chaff.
Other 4-powers:
Nullstone Gargoyle - You can go without casting spells much easier than other players.
Bontu the Glorified - Indestructible sac outlet + scrying
Charmbreaker Devils - Feel less guilty about using a few spells in your deck. Casting Sudden Spoiling or Mana Geyser every turn is fun.
Grim Poppet - can take down multiple problem creatures at once, including Containment Priest and Stuffy Doll.
Hoarding Dragon - Artifact tutor
Hythonia the Cruel - When you need a wrath
Lim-Dûl the Necromancer
Magus of the Coffers
Myr Battlesphere - sac fodder generator
Ob Nixilis, Unshackled
Preyseizer Dragon - the timing is uncertain, but it can be fantastic.
You could also try Demon of Wailing Agonies, Platinum Angel or Urabrask the Hidden
I just updated my list a few minutes ago and this time it was my turn to take inspiration from yours, especially for Body Snatcher, Pitiless Plunderer and Marionette Master!
Here are some thoughts and questions I have regarding your list:
Custom set projects:
Aenyr: Art is Magic (100% done and fully draftable!)
Elestral: Astronomy, Weather and Duality (Currently in early design.)
Multiplayer commander decks
RGWU Bruse and Thrasios: Enchanted Alliance | BR Grenzo's Jail of Malevolence | RWU Shu Yun's Teachings | B Toshiro Umezawa's Eternal Journey | WU Ephara's City of Wonders
Avatar art by Stephan A. McGowan
It is a massive honor to know that I have provided inspiration to the user that first inspired me to build this list. Thanks for helping me find my love for my favorite commander ever
Here are my responses to your questions/thoughts:
- Junktroller - Honestly, this is probably the next card on the chopping block. The fact that it's a fairly fragile creature, can only flip once, and needs help to have haste has left a lot to be desired. I primarily added it for it's ability to create another source of infinite with Thornbite Staff and Ashnod's Altar, but I think I have yet to ever run into this scenario. So I agree with your assessment that this might need to go.
- Tel-Jilad Stylus - I really love this card a lot, and have found that the instant recursion of our powerful ETB's can be extremely powerful. This alone has saved several game losses where I could instantly reflip Gray Merchant of Asphodel to gain 20+ life, netted me tons of mana by chump blocking with Solemn Simulacrum and stylusing it before combat damage is dealt, and also is an important way to save Grenzo from single target removal using only the Stylus and himself.
And being able to re-use a creature already on the field (like Meteor Golem) is something that is vital when a sac outlet/recursion outlet isn't available.
- Reito Lantern - This is in as a more sturdy form of recursion. And though it might be a bit of investment to recur it if it's accidentally flipped, being able to instantly grab your best ETB's for 5 mana has proven extremely powerful. Obviously, Epitaph Golem is better, but he's much more fragile as a creature which is why I prefer to have this alternate (harder to kill) version.
Also, it still creates the infinite loop with Ashnod's Altar and Siege-gang Commander/Marionette Master.
- Furystoke Giant - Another card that I wasn't sure about initially, but has pulled massive weight for me. This deck naturally builds up a hefty board state with the amount of creatures, and giving 10+ creatures on the field the ability to tap for 2 damage can often mean a selective board wipe or an instant kill to a player. And since everything is typically done on the end of the opponent's turn, you can sac the Giant to do it all over again on your next untap step. I would highly recommend slotting him back in as he's highly effective, even with a small board state.
And the fact that he can be sacced twice to Ashnod's Altar is just an added bonus.
- Deathbringer Thoctar/Goblin Sharpshooter - With the amount of saccing I do with this list, these both have been absolutely insane, and I can't tell you how many times these two cards have won me the game. Deathbringer Thoctar especially has been one of my favorite powerhouses and my playgroup's most feared drops. Any creature that dies gives you a stored free ping to anything!!!! "Oh you played Avenger of Zendikar? Remove a counter, kill a plant, gain a counter, remove a counter, kill a plant, etc."
Token decks are crippled, and swinging in at a player with a 30/30+ Thoctar, killing that player, and then removing 27 counters to kill another player has happened more times than I can count.
Hope that answers your questions as to why I chose these cards and keep sticking with them! But I'll probably have to follow your lead on the switch out from Junktroller to Whisper, Blood Liturgist
FearDReaper: There were quite a few creatures I forgot to include in that list. I'm currently getting my cards professionally sorted, so I'm going to have to rebuild my deck, but I have an early deck list up here. I'm going to have to cut some non-basic land for more swamps, but it's close.
My question now is, whats the easiest way to explain the grenzo vs. graveyard interaction (like leyline of the void ect) to new folks, as I have no idea who im playing any given game and dont actually know many people there lol. I tried to explain that even with leyline out, the creature, if applicable, will still go into play from ANY public zone, but i got so much pushback on multiple nights from different people.
Idk lol i guess i was just looking for a suggest of how to word it to new folks, because I love this deck rn, and im not gonna stop playing it now that I got it built (at least not for a bit)
This plus I've been running Archetype of Finality which turns both of the above into one-sided wraths in addition to making our smallest 1 power tokens into potent threats on offense (with opponents less likely to block) and defense (as no one wants to trade with little deathtouchers).
Etali, Primal Storm EDH
My own list needs a bit more disruption and I found that my card draw did very little to further the strategy aside from let me play lands. Drawing lands still seems really important so I want to keep a bit of card draw in the deck for that reason but it feels so awkward to have a full hand and not use it at all as a resource. This made me wonder about creatures with discard outlets so I started looking at the old shellshapers to see if there was anything worth using. One that stands out for me is Bog Witch. Its ramp, nuff said. Others I kind of want to test out are Hammer Mage, Seismic Mage, Notorious Assassin and Greel, Mind Raker. Thoughts?
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
Edit: Isolated Watchtower is interesting too
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
I think Bog Witch is a really good idea. I've recently bought one and added it to my list for playtesting. Same with Isolated Watchtower. I can see it working in this deck, though it's kind of mana hungry so we'll see... I'll let you know how it goes when I get to test those changes!
Also, about Forge of Heroes, to me it just looks like mana you could spend on X anyway to make him enter with a counter right? Of course there is the very narrow case of if you protect him with Tel-Jilad Stylus or champion him with Lightning Crafter, but I'm not sure if it makes it worth it to add yet another colorless source of mana to the deck.
Speaking of lands, Drownyard Temple and Dakmor Salvage have been two incredible recent additions to the deck for me. Their respective abilities reduce the feelbad of flipping them with Grenzo. Drownyard Temple turns into some slow ramp if you need it, and Dakmor Salvage fills your graveyard with more stuff if you want to make sure to draw a land. I have also rencently replaced my Goblin Matron with an Imperial Recruiter and my Manakin with a Soldevi Adnate for some very, very good results!
Custom set projects:
Aenyr: Art is Magic (100% done and fully draftable!)
Elestral: Astronomy, Weather and Duality (Currently in early design.)
Multiplayer commander decks
RGWU Bruse and Thrasios: Enchanted Alliance | BR Grenzo's Jail of Malevolence | RWU Shu Yun's Teachings | B Toshiro Umezawa's Eternal Journey | WU Ephara's City of Wonders
Avatar art by Stephan A. McGowan
Hey PenThief,
I've had pushback too when explaining this specific rule before. The interaction works in your favor due to the fact that Grenzo does not specify zone of retrieval. He says put the creature into the graveyard, and then put it into play (unspecified from where) if it's power is equal to or less than Grenzo's.
The specific rule that helps Grenzo is
400.7h. If an effect causes an object to move to a public zone, other parts of that effect can find that object. If the cost of a spell or ability causes an object to move to a public zone, that spell or ability's effects can find that object.
This is the reason that Oblivion Ring doesn't bring back your commander from the command zone when destroyed. Because it specifies return the EXILED card to play.
And it's the same reason Banishing Light WILL return your commander to play even if you choose to put it into the command zone. Banishing Light doesn't specify the card has to remain in exile, and thus if the card is in a public zone, it's retrievable. So I'd encourage people to look up the rulings if they're unsure or share this rule with them. If not, show them some of the topics others have already made. There's plenty of them. Hope this helps!
Extra note added: This only works with replacement effects. If your opponent exiles your commander with Banishing Light and you choose to send to the command zone, and then you play your commander and he gets destroyed and resent to the command zone, Banishing Light will no longer return your commander. This is because your commander has actively switched zones (CZ to play, and then back to CZ) and thus is no longer retrievable by Banishing Light.
I like this a lot and may have to find a spot for it. It's essentially another priest that can also serve as an alternative source of infinite with Ashnod's Altar.
I also like this card with the synergy it provides to the creatures you mentioned in addition to Furystoke Giant. The harest part will be trying to find a space for another strong creature...
I considered it, but it's definitely not an auto-include in my opinion. You'll be paying the mana anyways, so tapping it for the token is essentially the same thing. The benefit is really when Grenzo temporarily leaves play, but I want to be cautious with adding too many non-colored lands. I'll play test it and see if it helps enough to warrant an inclusion.
I typically would rather use the two mana to flip and see what I can get (I still enjoy the luck aspect of the deck), but I do think this can be a potential inclusion with the scry AND potential ramp it offers. I'll also play test this out.
Why do there have to be so many good colorless lands!!!! We need colored mana too, friends! Lol, but in all seriousness I do like the idea of having non-feelbad lands to flip. So I'll definitely replace a Swamp with Dakmore Salvage and see if I can find a spot to fit in Drownyard Temple as well. Also, I still have to find a spot for Soldevi Adnate as well >>
Also we may have found a new addition in the newly revealed Goblin Cratermaker!!! Pay 1 colorless to destroy target Eldrazi, Karn, or artifact seems pretty good...
When I have the time, I'm going to put out my review of the set, but the big takeaway is Plaguecrafter is our money card for the set. It's a direct upgrade on Fleshbag Marauder. He hits planeswalkers and makes opponents start discarding cards once we've abused it enough. Definitely an immediate auto-include
Since she's independent of Grenzo, she can help hold up mana in exchange for spent etb creatures, and her sacrifice cost means she is part of another infinite combo win-con.
Whisper, Blood Liturgist + Thornbite Staff + Creature that Makes 3+ Bodies + Any random dork in grave.
If the Army-in-a-Can creature is Marionette Master, you win alone through her damage. Siege Gang provides infinite 1/1 goblins. I also have Mogg War Marshal in my own build, which means he wins the game depending on who your random dork is (still oppressive if it doesn't win). Kiki/Phyrexian Delver/Puppeteer Clique can pull bad impressions of the bodies depending on what's in who's graves.