Huzzah, it's that time again friends! And this set is much more thrilling than M20. So here is my review of the new cards within C19:
Chainer, Nightmare Adept - Amazing addition to the list. He serves as a discard outlet to pitch high cost creatures from our hand, allows us to recast key creatures from our graveyard (assuming a Digger loop isn't available), and as an added bonus gives all of our creatures haste. I will definitely be finding a slot for this guy to start testing.
Dockside Extortionist - In my opinion, this is the MVP of this set. Your opponents will often have enough enchantments/artifacts combined to at least make this mana positive; and as the number grows, it'll become a stronger and stronger flip. With at least 5 combined artifacts/enchantments, he serves as another infinite mana generator with Digger Loops. I am definitely finding a place for this guy.
K'rrik, Son of Yawgmoth - I love this card so much...just probably not for this deck. We typically don't cast things from hand, and we don't have many activation costs that this would help with (other than maybe Fleshwrither and Crypt Ghast).
Those are all the cards I saw as possible inclusions, and I am super stoked to include Chainer and DE in the list and start testing. My only complaint is that DE won't be in foil ;_;
I will also be posting the long overdue update to the decklist soon, so stay tuned!
Another one I'm interested in trying out is Scaretiller. I don't think it'll be great, but I've been really longing for a way to get all those lands out of Grenzo's yard. I feel like, in my meta, there's usually someone that I'll be able to swing at and have it survive, but even if you do only get one activation off this guy it's still a pseudo-Solemn Simulacrum.
Kinda liking the concept of grenzo.
Just not have infinite or near infinite combos.
Is grenzo any good without the infinite combos?
I can understand it is alot less strong but my FNM, and tbh myself, doesnt like infinites combos.
Another one I'm interested in trying out is Scaretiller. I don't think it'll be great, but I've been really longing for a way to get all those lands out of Grenzo's yard. I feel like, in my meta, there's usually someone that I'll be able to swing at and have it survive, but even if you do only get one activation off this guy it's still a pseudo-Solemn Simulacrum.
I typically prefer immediate or immense impact with the flips I find. I don't think this is a bad inclusion, I'm just unsure if I'm going to run it at this time. Definitely let me know how it feels in your testing.
Hey Snowfox do You have any ETA for the upgrade? I saw that you plan on making updated list so i abstained from buying the currenct one.
I'm going to try to have it out by the end of this week. It's been a crazy month with a baby on the way and a big admissions test I had to take, so I apologize for the massive delay.
Kinda liking the concept of grenzo.
Just not have infinite or near infinite combos.
Is grenzo any good without the infinite combos?
I can understand it is alot less strong but my FNM, and tbh myself, doesnt like infinites combos.
I believe I linked a more casual list in the thread that took out most of the infinite combos. It still functions as an extremely deadly aristocrats list, so it can definitely be done. To be honest, when building Grenzo, it's really hard to not infinite
Well, I guess I was able to find the time to get this update out sooner than I expected! So here's the update to the current list. The main post should also be updated to reflect these changes!
Removed:
• Goblin Cratermaker - This little guy has been fine in my testing, but has never really blown me away. He's been on my chopping block for a while, and I found such a powerful replacement that he was my first decision to cut.
• Judith, the Scourge Diva - A great card that could've been infinitely more valuable with the lack of the "nontoken" clause. She's another card that has been fine in my testing, but I've rarely been excited to flip Judith as she requires a lot of other setup pieces to be worthwhile.
• Millikin - I'm always wary of replacing mana dorks, but I feel like this addition is worthy of taking one out. Also, I've had a contentious relationship with Millikin as for every time it bins a creature card I can reanimate through the digger loop, it's also binned my Ashnod's or Thornbite which is never ideal.
Added:
• Goblin Engineer - This little goblin is a house. He immediately can tutor and bin any of our most powerful artifacts (Ashnod's Altar, Heartstone, Thornbite Staff, Nim Deathmantle), but he can also easily recur them to our hand to cast. I love my GY tutors, and this guy is no exception.
• Sling-Gang Lieutenant - Another amazing token generator that also serves as a sac outlet! What more could you want?! With a digger loop online, he can serve as a self-contained win condition with all of the life loss (which let's not forget, gets around a lot of annoyances).
• Dockside Extortionist - Ever since this little capitalist was spoiled, I knew he'd be an amazing inclusion in the deck. In more casual metas, he might be an extremely lackluster flip, but as the game progresses, his ability to generate 5+ treasure cannot be underestimated. Cards that meet multiple roles are always great, and this card serves as ramp and a possible infinite.
Delegated to Alternative List:
• All three removed cards - The cards that I removed are still good, and you shouldn't feel bad for running them. They can be great depending on your meta/play style. They just don't fit in mine currently.
• Chainer, Nightmare Adept - This card is great as a discard outlet, a source of haste and a possible way to recast creatures from the graveyard (sorcery speed). He's still in testing, but for now I feel confident putting him in this list until I've determined if he's a good fit (and what he can replace).
Kinda liking the concept of grenzo.
Just not have infinite or near infinite combos.
Is grenzo any good without the infinite combos?
I can understand it is alot less strong but my FNM, and tbh myself, doesnt like infinites combos.
Yes, just play him as a midrange value engine with creatures like Ravenous Chupacabra, Fleshbag Marauder, Gonti, Emrakul's Hatcher, etc. You don't need to run Doomsday and/or Kiki/Conscripts combo for the deck to be effective.
Yeah that card is absurd for Grenzo. Putting creatures on the bottom when they die is meant to be a limiting factor for this artifact's second ability but for Grenzo it's basically all upside that it does that.
Murderous Rider is another new card that could have some interesting applications for Grenzo since it also puts itself on the bottom when it dies. Rider + Grenzo + sac outlet gives you sac fodder for as many times as you have the mana. If the sac outlet happens to be Ashnod's Altar then you can just straight up get infinite death triggers for a Zulaport Cutthroat or Blood Artist effect. In addition to all that if you draw it naturally you can use it as a Hero's Downfall effect. I normally shy away from removal that isn't stapled to a creature in this deck since it just means more misses for Grenzo activations (I've long ago removed Terminate, Dreadbore, etc) but with Midnight Rider you can have your cake and eat it too.
Syr Konrad, the Grim triggers off of Grenzo activations if I'm not mistaken, though as a 5 power creature he's difficult to flip with Grenzo and the effect is probably too marginal overall.
Chittering Witch is another army-in-a-can effect we can flip into that scales with the size of your play group. It plays similar to Siege Gang Commander but it can't go to the face. Unlike SGC it is not limited to the type of creature it has to sacrifice though, so I could see it being good enough based on that.
Opportunistic Dragon is a really interesting effect on a red card. If your opponent's commander is a human or artifact you can just take it hostage and there's always plenty of other artifacts to hit. If you have some sort of sac outlet (Goblin Engineer?) you can even sacrifice what you stole. I tend to prefer my artifact removal permanently deal with the problem but it is an interesting effect.
Bad news: ToE only offered one card of interest to the deck.
Good news: It's quite the card!!!!
The Cauldron of Eternity - This card is just another example of a seemlingy "alright" card that becomes immediately busted with the right commander. The drawback in this card is the entire reason we play it, and it serves as an easy method of assembling a half-automated digger loop. Now, I am cautiously optimistic with the card, and here are my reasons:
It's expensive. As you know, I'm extremely picky with how I utilize my mana when playing Grenzo. That being said, it does become cheap very quickly with the amount of creatures we already put in our own GY.
It's uncontrollable. What if someone continuously targets your Goblin Sharpshooter with their own so that you're constantly having to flip the same creature? I could see possible scenarios where you get locked into wasting massive amounts of mana just to get to a new flip.
It's redudant. You know how picky I am about the number of noncreature cards I run, and we already have other ways to set up our digger loops.
Despite these concerns, I due feel it's worth immediate testing as the biggest boon in it's favor is that it effectively removes half of the mana cost required with a digger loop. So once it's in play, the game becomes close to over. I will most likely be subbing this in for Reito Lantern, as it effectively costs the same amount of cmc (assuming you have 5+ creatures in GY), and the activation cost is much heavier on the Lantern.
Let me know if there are any other cards you feel I should take a look at with ToE. Happy flipping, friends!
Rankle, Master of Pranks seems worth a look. I know you don't generally like attackers, but costing each player two cards a turn is pretty good value.
Fires of Invention is a dead flip, but kind of ridiculous for us anyway. We've been looking for decent discard outlets; this just lets us cast them straight up, while leaving ALL our mana available for Grenzo. It feels too strong to not include.
-Goblin Welder: Cheatyface deluxe. You always have a tapped Myr, Treasure Token flying around. Great to recurr other noncreature value artifacts, which you couldn't get back otherwise. (If they are CMC > 3)
- Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast: This card does so much! Artifact Creature Tokens as multipurpose sac Fodder - it ties a lot of synergies together. The ability to remove your opponents hatepieces without requiring an ETB should also never be underestimated. I look at you, Torpor Orb, Hushwing Gryff, Hushbringer! Daretti's Ultimate gets your The Cauldron of Eternity out of the GY multiple times. I personally love targeting Panharmonicon or Sword of Feast and Famine with the ult. Especially latter one just gives your more coins to run the Slotmachine.
Myr Retriever: Gets back so many cards in my deck, and can be used as part of an infinite combo, which i explain later.
Withered Wretch: Did somesone say GY-Hate? I never read Heartstone properly and thought you'd be able to reduce the cost down to 0 - Good Times. Still a good card! Nezumi Graverobber if you want more spice.
Scaretiller: Land Recursion for missed flips. Fetches and Myriad Landscape will generate some good Value. Less Lands in Deck = More hits.
Murderous Rider: Haven't tested this card myself, but an instant dreadbore pseudo-creature seems good. If you manage to play the spell-side, you have an creature castable from exile that can be infinitely looped when you need it. Seems "okay". Sort of a Cauldron-on-a-stick.
- It's amazing, you want this card. It is amazing recursion and draw - loops with Myr Retriever to draw many, many cards. This can replace Epitaph Golem in the Heartstone&Ashnod's Altar- Loop. I know, you don't primarily want to draw in this deck, but hitting your land drops consistently is mandatory in this deck, since additional mana is always useful. And that's only one reason to draw more.
- A global edict with Fleshbag Marauder is giving your 4x scry 1, this goes crazy with boardwipes and good removal flips. Great Filtering option and a really high ceiling. The activated ability is okay. I am a huge fan of "distraction-carnifexes" - cards that are cheap, generate tons of value and force the opponent to answer it. My playgroup only destroys this card asap, because they know I love it so much.
Hey crownedzoidberg, I appreciate the thoughts. I already include Goblin Welder in my list cause he's definitely a powerhouse worth listing. However, all of the other cards you've mentioned either go against a major theme in my list (minimizing amount of noncreature nonrecurrable cards like Daretti) or I've included a previous explanation for their exclusion.
But here are quicker takes on each of the cards you mentioned:
Myr Retriever - Used to be in the list, but was replaced by Junk Diver because it also serves as a flying blocker. This card is still in my other includes list.
Mayhem Devil - I would never replace Deathbringer Thoctar. It fulfills a completely different niche than Mayhem Devil and has won me far too many games to ever want to cut it. As for cost, I don't typically cast things anyways. All my mana goes into Grenzo with this list. This is a good card, and if you're in a sac-heavy meta, it's a good hate piece. But it's not a necessity.
Goblin Trashmaster - Still in my possible includes list. Was in originally, but was cut. Could easily make it's way back, but I haven't felt lacking without it.
Goblin Cratermaker - Also in my possible includes list. Still a good card that doesn't do much in my current meta. Also, you'll see a common theme that I don't like paying mana for extra effects unless it leads to a win.
Yawgmoth, Thran Physician - Drawing cards is actually not something I want to do with this deck. I want to flip, and drawing cards to cast cards goes directly against that vision.
Withered Wretch - It can work, but didn't work for me in my early testing. Low impact entrance with a mana costed ability that cuts into more flips.
Chittering Witch - Actually purposefully not included because it's tokens are dependent on the number of players, unlike Siege-Gang Commander and my other token producers.
Scaretiller - Too slow for my taste. I like to have immediate impact once it hits the board or an extremely powerful delayed effect. Grabbing a land from hand or GY is good, but not worth cutting any of my other more powerful options for.
Murderous Rider - Super low impact creature. For sure not worth it in my opinion.
Shadows of the Past - Definitely a strong card, but it's not a creature or artifact meaning it's not recurrable. My list focuses on flips, so anything that could add to a dead-flip ratio has to have a massive impact to make it worth running.
Conjurer's Bauble - As stated above, it's gotta be crazy strong to be worth running if it's increasing your chances to deadflip. I'd rather have Tel-Jilad Stylus for consistent results. As for the looping, this seems a little more complicated than the loops we already have. If we're assuming a mana-positive digger loop with Ashnod's Altar out, then we can just win the game instead with Cauldron or any other activatable artifact. If we're assuming a non-mana-positive loop, then once again it goes against the grain of my deck to focus on flipping 24/7.
Hope this explains my reasoning for exclusions and differences between our lists!
What cards (if any) are people trying from Theros Beyond Death?
Woe Strider seems decently promising as another Viscera Seer that brings extra sac fodder along for the ride. The escape ability is a nice bit of resiliency as well and gives you a use for the non-creatures Grenzo puts in the graveyard.
Gravebreaker Lamia - maybe does something in combo builds? Hard to flip with Grenzo though.
Tymaret, Chosen From Death - I've played Withered Wretch and been happy with it. This is a little less flexible in that you ahve to spend 2 mana at a time but the extra lifegain could be useful.
Anax, Hardened in the Forge - Seems pretty strong if you are going the artistocrats route. Turning each of your non-token bodies into 2+ additional creatures is quite valuable there.
Kroxa, Titan of Death's Hunger - very difficult to flip with Grenzo, though even just dumping it in the graveyard isn't the worst. Grenzo is also decent at filling your graveyard and escape means it's a way to make use of non-creatures he hits.
Well guys!! i love this guide but have lot of time no one update the list with the new sets!! Plz Make a changelog with card until now!! w8 for u guys!!!
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Those are all the cards I saw as possible inclusions, and I am super stoked to include Chainer and DE in the list and start testing. My only complaint is that DE won't be in foil ;_;
I will also be posting the long overdue update to the decklist soon, so stay tuned!
Just not have infinite or near infinite combos.
Is grenzo any good without the infinite combos?
I can understand it is alot less strong but my FNM, and tbh myself, doesnt like infinites combos.
I typically prefer immediate or immense impact with the flips I find. I don't think this is a bad inclusion, I'm just unsure if I'm going to run it at this time. Definitely let me know how it feels in your testing.
I'm going to try to have it out by the end of this week. It's been a crazy month with a baby on the way and a big admissions test I had to take, so I apologize for the massive delay.
I believe I linked a more casual list in the thread that took out most of the infinite combos. It still functions as an extremely deadly aristocrats list, so it can definitely be done. To be honest, when building Grenzo, it's really hard to not infinite
Removed:
• Goblin Cratermaker - This little guy has been fine in my testing, but has never really blown me away. He's been on my chopping block for a while, and I found such a powerful replacement that he was my first decision to cut.
• Judith, the Scourge Diva - A great card that could've been infinitely more valuable with the lack of the "nontoken" clause. She's another card that has been fine in my testing, but I've rarely been excited to flip Judith as she requires a lot of other setup pieces to be worthwhile.
• Millikin - I'm always wary of replacing mana dorks, but I feel like this addition is worthy of taking one out. Also, I've had a contentious relationship with Millikin as for every time it bins a creature card I can reanimate through the digger loop, it's also binned my Ashnod's or Thornbite which is never ideal.
Added:
• Goblin Engineer - This little goblin is a house. He immediately can tutor and bin any of our most powerful artifacts (Ashnod's Altar, Heartstone, Thornbite Staff, Nim Deathmantle), but he can also easily recur them to our hand to cast. I love my GY tutors, and this guy is no exception.
• Sling-Gang Lieutenant - Another amazing token generator that also serves as a sac outlet! What more could you want?! With a digger loop online, he can serve as a self-contained win condition with all of the life loss (which let's not forget, gets around a lot of annoyances).
• Dockside Extortionist - Ever since this little capitalist was spoiled, I knew he'd be an amazing inclusion in the deck. In more casual metas, he might be an extremely lackluster flip, but as the game progresses, his ability to generate 5+ treasure cannot be underestimated. Cards that meet multiple roles are always great, and this card serves as ramp and a possible infinite.
Delegated to Alternative List:
• All three removed cards - The cards that I removed are still good, and you shouldn't feel bad for running them. They can be great depending on your meta/play style. They just don't fit in mine currently.
• Chainer, Nightmare Adept - This card is great as a discard outlet, a source of haste and a possible way to recast creatures from the graveyard (sorcery speed). He's still in testing, but for now I feel confident putting him in this list until I've determined if he's a good fit (and what he can replace).
Yes, just play him as a midrange value engine with creatures like Ravenous Chupacabra, Fleshbag Marauder, Gonti, Emrakul's Hatcher, etc. You don't need to run Doomsday and/or Kiki/Conscripts combo for the deck to be effective.
https://imgur.com/a/OLL***M
Legendary Artifact (M) 10BB
This spell costs {2} less for each creature card in your graveyard. Whenever a creature you control dies, put it on the bottom of its owner's library.
2B, Pay 2 life: Return target creature card from your graveyard to the battlefield. Activate this ability only any time you can cast a sorcery.
Murderous Rider is another new card that could have some interesting applications for Grenzo since it also puts itself on the bottom when it dies. Rider + Grenzo + sac outlet gives you sac fodder for as many times as you have the mana. If the sac outlet happens to be Ashnod's Altar then you can just straight up get infinite death triggers for a Zulaport Cutthroat or Blood Artist effect. In addition to all that if you draw it naturally you can use it as a Hero's Downfall effect. I normally shy away from removal that isn't stapled to a creature in this deck since it just means more misses for Grenzo activations (I've long ago removed Terminate, Dreadbore, etc) but with Midnight Rider you can have your cake and eat it too.
Syr Konrad, the Grim triggers off of Grenzo activations if I'm not mistaken, though as a 5 power creature he's difficult to flip with Grenzo and the effect is probably too marginal overall.
Chittering Witch is another army-in-a-can effect we can flip into that scales with the size of your play group. It plays similar to Siege Gang Commander but it can't go to the face. Unlike SGC it is not limited to the type of creature it has to sacrifice though, so I could see it being good enough based on that.
Opportunistic Dragon is a really interesting effect on a red card. If your opponent's commander is a human or artifact you can just take it hostage and there's always plenty of other artifacts to hit. If you have some sort of sac outlet (Goblin Engineer?) you can even sacrifice what you stole. I tend to prefer my artifact removal permanently deal with the problem but it is an interesting effect.
Bad news: ToE only offered one card of interest to the deck.
Good news: It's quite the card!!!!
The Cauldron of Eternity - This card is just another example of a seemlingy "alright" card that becomes immediately busted with the right commander. The drawback in this card is the entire reason we play it, and it serves as an easy method of assembling a half-automated digger loop. Now, I am cautiously optimistic with the card, and here are my reasons:
Despite these concerns, I due feel it's worth immediate testing as the biggest boon in it's favor is that it effectively removes half of the mana cost required with a digger loop. So once it's in play, the game becomes close to over. I will most likely be subbing this in for Reito Lantern, as it effectively costs the same amount of cmc (assuming you have 5+ creatures in GY), and the activation cost is much heavier on the Lantern.
Let me know if there are any other cards you feel I should take a look at with ToE. Happy flipping, friends!
Fires of Invention is a dead flip, but kind of ridiculous for us anyway. We've been looking for decent discard outlets; this just lets us cast them straight up, while leaving ALL our mana available for Grenzo. It feels too strong to not include.
Assuming you play The Cauldron of Eternity, you might want to adapt your artifacts-package:
-Goblin Welder: Cheatyface deluxe. You always have a tapped Myr, Treasure Token flying around. Great to recurr other noncreature value artifacts, which you couldn't get back otherwise. (If they are CMC > 3)
- Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast: This card does so much! Artifact Creature Tokens as multipurpose sac Fodder - it ties a lot of synergies together. The ability to remove your opponents hatepieces without requiring an ETB should also never be underestimated. I look at you, Torpor Orb, Hushwing Gryff, Hushbringer! Daretti's Ultimate gets your The Cauldron of Eternity out of the GY multiple times. I personally love targeting Panharmonicon or Sword of Feast and Famine with the ult. Especially latter one just gives your more coins to run the Slotmachine.
Myr Retriever: Gets back so many cards in my deck, and can be used as part of an infinite combo, which i explain later.
Other Considerations:
Mayhem Devil: Currently Replacing Deathbringer Thoctar which was always a dead draw unless you flip it. Devil is castable and a great piece of hate against The Gitrog Monster - Infinite Combos that require sacrifice. Breya, Etherium Shaper still gets her way - damn, she's op
Goblin Trashmaster: repeatable sac outlet and artifact without requiring using an ETB.
Rethink Goblin Cratermaker: Same reason as Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast - it kills many edh hatepieces wihtout requiring an ETB.
Yawgmoth, Thran Physician: Sac outlet, Card Draw, Removal, Proliferate - powercreep. Make him a Goblin Sharpshooter against 1/1s in combination with Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet. Latter one is great standalone GY hate.
Withered Wretch: Did somesone say GY-Hate? I never read Heartstone properly and thought you'd be able to reduce the cost down to 0 - Good Times. Still a good card! Nezumi Graverobber if you want more spice.
Chittering Witch: A black Siege-Gang Commander that doesn't require a specific creature type. YAAAAS.
Scaretiller: Land Recursion for missed flips. Fetches and Myriad Landscape will generate some good Value. Less Lands in Deck = More hits.
Murderous Rider: Haven't tested this card myself, but an instant dreadbore pseudo-creature seems good. If you manage to play the spell-side, you have an creature castable from exile that can be infinitely looped when you need it. Seems "okay". Sort of a Cauldron-on-a-stick.
And now for my favourite Card of the deck: Conjurer's Bauble!
- It's amazing, you want this card. It is amazing recursion and draw - loops with Myr Retriever to draw many, many cards. This can replace Epitaph Golem in the Heartstone&Ashnod's Altar- Loop. I know, you don't primarily want to draw in this deck, but hitting your land drops consistently is mandatory in this deck, since additional mana is always useful. And that's only one reason to draw more.
Okay, I have another favourite card: Shadows of the Past
- A global edict with Fleshbag Marauder is giving your 4x scry 1, this goes crazy with boardwipes and good removal flips. Great Filtering option and a really high ceiling. The activated ability is okay. I am a huge fan of "distraction-carnifexes" - cards that are cheap, generate tons of value and force the opponent to answer it. My playgroup only destroys this card asap, because they know I love it so much.
But here are quicker takes on each of the cards you mentioned:
Hope this explains my reasoning for exclusions and differences between our lists!
Woe Strider seems decently promising as another Viscera Seer that brings extra sac fodder along for the ride. The escape ability is a nice bit of resiliency as well and gives you a use for the non-creatures Grenzo puts in the graveyard.
Gravebreaker Lamia - maybe does something in combo builds? Hard to flip with Grenzo though.
Tymaret, Chosen From Death - I've played Withered Wretch and been happy with it. This is a little less flexible in that you ahve to spend 2 mana at a time but the extra lifegain could be useful.
Anax, Hardened in the Forge - Seems pretty strong if you are going the artistocrats route. Turning each of your non-token bodies into 2+ additional creatures is quite valuable there.
Irreverent Revelers - strict upgrade on Manic Vandal if anyone was using that
Kroxa, Titan of Death's Hunger - very difficult to flip with Grenzo, though even just dumping it in the graveyard isn't the worst. Grenzo is also decent at filling your graveyard and escape means it's a way to make use of non-creatures he hits.
Saw a gem from Mystery Boosters: Kulrath Knight. It shuts down many staples and strategies straight up - Avenger of Zendikar, Korvald, Fae-Cursed King, Sarkhan the Masterless... It may depend a bit on your meta but it's definitely a useful tool for the box.