I've changed the secondary combo to the Panharmonicon and Flameshadow Conjuring bounce creatures as having more creatures helps with Fauna Shaman, Survival of the Fittest, Gaea's Cradle and actually Cloudstone Curio as you need a cheap creature to bounce. Plus you can get some extra value out of them with some of the mana ramp creatures and Zacama untap lands will trigger twice with Panharmonicon (not Flameshadow Conjuring unfortunately) so you'll double up on the mana, which can help setup.
Why no Eternal Scourge given that you're already running Food Chain? Seems a much easier combo than some of those you describe. Those two cards will produce infinite mana that can only be spent of creature spells, but Zacama can then filter it into "normal" mana (cast him with some of this infinite mana to untap lands, which you then tap for normal mana, exile him to Food Chain, then recast with more of the FC mana to untap your lands again, repeat as many times as necessary).
Why no Eternal Scourge given that you're already running Food Chain? Seems a much easier combo than some of those you describe. Those two cards will produce infinite mana that can only be spent of creature spells, but Zacama can then filter it into "normal" mana (cast him with some of this infinite mana to untap lands, which you then tap for normal mana, exile him to Food Chain, then recast with more of the FC mana to untap your lands again, repeat as many times as necessary).
I play a 5 color Food Chain deck with General Tazri, so know all the tricks to this card. I guess it didn't feel right without the cool cards like Manipulate Fate, Demonic Consultation, etc. However you're right, the combo is there, I'll add it.
I've also been brewing with Zacama and I've found a few other great additions to the deck that help to speed it up a bit.
Arbor Elf, Utopia Sprawl, and Magus of the Candelabra are mana dorks that actually benefit more than the usual ones since they interact directly with lands. I still have Birds and two other elves as well.
Selvala, Heart of the Wilds is another dork that allows you the mana surge you need to pump out the last bit of the combo as well as being a draw engine since Zacama is probably going to be the biggest guy on the field.
I also shaved a few of the bounce guys and less good ramp for additional tutors and card draw ie Greater Good, Rishkar's Expertise, Harmonize, Wheel of Fortune. I'm going to test Natural Order as an additional tutor, but I'm not sold yet.
Since I have more dorks in the list I shaved a few lands to add in Seeds of Innocence, Stony Silence, and Rest in Peace as some one sided hate pieces since we have a solid tutor package. I'm going to try Blood Moon and maybe Blood Sun at some point, but that'll be once I play a little more and find the clunkier parts of the deck to cut. My feeling is that Blood Moon hurts the nonbasic Forest count too much.
I've also been brewing with Zacama and I've found a few other great additions to the deck that help to speed it up a bit.
Arbor Elf, Utopia Sprawl, and Magus of the Candelabra are mana dorks that actually benefit more than the usual ones since they interact directly with lands. I still have Birds and two other elves as well.
Selvala, Heart of the Wilds is another dork that allows you the mana surge you need to pump out the last bit of the combo as well as being a draw engine since Zacama is probably going to be the biggest guy on the field.
I also shaved a few of the bounce guys and less good ramp for additional tutors and card draw ie Greater Good, Rishkar's Expertise, Harmonize, Wheel of Fortune. I'm going to test Natural Order as an additional tutor, but I'm not sold yet.
Since I have more dorks in the list I shaved a few lands to add in Seeds of Innocence, Stony Silence, and Rest in Peace as some one sided hate pieces since we have a solid tutor package. I'm going to try Blood Moon and maybe Blood Sun at some point, but that'll be once I play a little more and find the clunkier parts of the deck to cut. My feeling is that Blood Moon hurts the nonbasic Forest count too much.
I think i'll try Candelabra of Tawnos, Utopia Sprawl and Selvala, Heart of the Wilds. Adding some potential extra speed to the deck is worth a try. Selvala has a little extra bonus in that you can get some states where you can go infinite with bouncing Zacama but not actually gaining mana. So she breaks this stale mate by drawing a card each time, which will get you the win.
The draw is probably the best way to go. If you have Greater Good and a mana doubler in play and just cast out Zacama, draw 9 cards, untap all your lands, gain extra mana, sacrifice Zacama, draw 9... yeah so its a bit like Food Chain in that you gain mana, enough to cast out your deck and win. So yeah I think its a must.
I've taken out the secondary infinite mana packages and instead gone for big draw cards. It plays out much more like a storm deck, where you can potentially gain lots of mana, not necessarily infinite, but enough to do powerful things in a single turn.
I've removed the higher casting land fetch cards, and opted for cheaper casting cards that still mana ramp, and also added planeswalkers that provide extra mana and/or draw.
What is your reasoning behind Tooth and Nail, Protean Hulk, and Scapeshift? I get Scapeshift as a ritual tool, but I'm not following the others usefulness. And nice find on the Regal Behemoth!
What is your reasoning behind Tooth and Nail, Protean Hulk, and Scapeshift? I get Scapeshift as a ritual tool, but I'm not following the others usefulness. And nice find on the Regal Behemoth!
With some of the sacrifice outlets, Protean Hulk can go for combo creatures. Same with Tooth and Nail, getting probably like Temur Sabertooth and Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger.
I found two more mana doublers in: Keeper of Progenitus and Dictate of Karametra. With 13 mana doublers, you are almost certain to have one in play at some stage with untapped lands. It also changes the dynamics of getting multiple of them into play, so that you can recast Zacama (with a sacrifice outlet) to get more mana. Its the same as Food Chain in that you gain mana, but the Commander Tax increases, so you reach a threshold where you will no longer gain mana.
I've worked out that with 7 lands you'll gain about 33+ mana and with 9 lands you'll gain 80+ mana. These example assume that you have mana doubler in play and then are untapping, then playing a secondary mana doubler, and looping Zacama with a sacrifice outlet.
So the importance of sacrifice outlets is now more of a priority, but now I'm only running Greater Good.
Another thing with having more of a big draw deck, is that actually putting an game ending card into the deck, I think is important for competitive play.
I was thinking Purphoros, God of the Forge as a finisher, as it can be creature tutored and just efficient to put onto the board.
However, with sacrifice outlets being important, I think Goblin Bombardment actually meets both a win condition and a sacrifice outlet.
Wanted another win-condition and Shivan Gorge allows you to kill everyone with infinite Zacama casting and an extra land was needed for the deck.
I play a meta heavy control playgroup, so counterspells are the normal, and this is a combo deck, so the ability to go off in a turn means that you can set up for it with Dragonlord Dromoka. There is a lot of creature tutors in the deck, so you can be patient and set up lands then get a turn where you can do what you want.
Removed Fauna Shaman because the creature count is at 18, which is a bit on the low side to consistently gain value, and there are a lot of creature tutors already. Decided to leave in Survival of the Fittest, its instant use means that its still good.
Removed Gauntlet of Power as its the worst of mana doublers for this decks configuration.
This deck goes off very easily if not disrupted, so adding Sylvan Safekeeper, Grand Abolisher as further protection in combo turns is a must.
Summer Bloom ended up just being a win-more card, rather than necessary to a combo turn.
I needed to add a white source for "mountain" fetches. Being able to play a first turn Land Tax or Enlightened Tutor off a fetch land that only can get mountains, is something that came up.
I found many games where I wanted to turn a creature tutor into a draw card, so even if the draw is like 3-4 cards, its good enough. Temur Sabertooth can bounce it for unlimited draw with the combo.
I've been testing a version which is geared towards playing against heavy control opponents, especially blue counterspells. The deck is very consistent at getting the right cards early, but obviously you want to avoid disruption as much as possible to combo off.
So with this in mind, I like to run a Sunforger package which runs a number of disruption cards. The trade off for running more disruption is removing some of the speed of the deck and also infinite mana combo cards. The idea is to setup for a storm combo turn more. Once you are drawing heaps of cards, you should find tutors for Temur Sabertooth, to still go infinite. You'll need to be more patient, getting a few less lands into play early, but setting up for an undisruptable combo turn more.
I often do this but when I want to make a truly competitive deck I'll add both Pyroblast and Red Elemental Blast to a deck if in Red. It seems bad to run these if not playing against blue decks, but honestly if there is no blue at the table, then you are probably winning. Its more consistent and faster than most decks outside of blue.
Since this Commander ramps hard, and since it can kill enchantments, I'm thinking this might be the first time Aggressive Mining can find a real home (discounting the donate one to be a jerk plan). In a four player game you can draw 8 cards in one cycle, then send it away on casting your big dino. Its definitely something pushing me towards building around Zacama.
I've been super impressed with Dictate of Karametra. The ability to flash it in before your turn is exactly what you want to setup a combo storm turn. So with this in mind, I've decided to add Winding Canyons, so that I can potentially flash in Keeper of Progenitus, Zhur-Taa Ancient, Regal Behemoth, Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger. Obviously with Keeper of Progenitus and Zhur-Taa Ancient its a nice way to avoid giving your opponents mana. But even flashing in Regal Behemoth or Voice of Hunger, allows that surprise value where you then get to untap with double mana, which normally means "Good Game".
I removed the High Market, because I just find myself comboing off consistently without needing to use this sac ability to gain mana.
Awesome deck,just wondering how do you close out games with this deck? Shame Zacama can't shoot to the face too.
I noticed before you had Purphoros that could work with the infinite bouncing. But can't see it in your deck anymore. Hope your guide to how to play this comes out soon!
Awesome deck,just wondering how do you close out games with this deck? Shame Zacama can't shoot to the face too.
I noticed before you had Purphoros that could work with the infinite bouncing. But can't see it in your deck anymore. Hope your guide to how to play this comes out soon!
Can't wait!
Shivan Gorge does infinite damage once you get the Temur Sabertooth bounce. You only need the one win condition and putting it into a land is always the best way to squeeze value out of a deck.
I have often passed the turn with Zacama, Regal Behemoth, Vorinclex, etc, cleared opponents boards, and then simple attack players over a couple of turns as well. I'll have the Sunforger equipped, ready to navigate around opponents best efforts to stop me. Normally I can just use Teferi's Protection, and this prevents opponents from disrupting me. Or often you can just bounce all your creatures with Temur Sabertooth in response to a wrath effect and then setup again. Opponents soon figure out that there is little they can do. I was going to play Kamahl, Fist of Krosa as a finishers, as it can turn opponents lands into creatures and then kill then with Zacama 3 damage to creatures, and obviously you can make your creatures infinitely big, but in the end, you just need the Shivan Gorge, so the slots in the deck are better served for the setup, rather than the finish.
After playing this deck a lot, I've been testing/finding the balance between, speed (land ramp) and cards that circumnavigate disruption.
I'm honing in on the right mix and I've decided to take out Conqueror's Flail, Stoneforge Mystic, as the Sunforger can be a little on the slow side. If you come up against another combo deck, you want to be able to go to the races as well.
So in the end I've put back more of the land ramp, it makes the deck more consistent.
There are only 15 creatures in the deck now, so Survival of the Fittest isn't the most reliable card in this deck, so removed it.
I like your changes. It is important to keep the mana curve low. Have you considered Yeva? Most of your guys are green and it is a creature so it easier to find with naya tutors. Helps flashing in your mana doublers that are also creatures.
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To the people that say that a card needs to be a higher rarity because of Limited... I hate you guys so much. I present to you with this.
I like your changes. It is important to keep the mana curve low. Have you considered Yeva? Most of your guys are green and it is a creature so it easier to find with naya tutors. Helps flashing in your mana doublers that are also creatures.
I have a lot of decks built around Seedborn Muse and Yeva, basically taking pseudo extra turns, so I know her power in the right deck. But Yeva probably a bit narrow in this deck, I don't have many ways to abuse her other than flashing in the mana doublers at end of opponents turn. The Winding Canyons was easy to put in as lands slots are almost "free". I think with some other configuration which has a larger number of creatures (maybe like 25 creatures), it would definitely be worth it.
As someone who's also working on a Zacama list, I love the addition of Shivan Gorge. It just seems so funny that such a black sheep in an otherwise broken cycle of lands can pull so much weight. I'm still opting to make infinite mana and kill everyone with Walking Ballista, but I'll at least keep that idea in the back of my mind.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Removed
Added
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Arbor Elf, Utopia Sprawl, and Magus of the Candelabra are mana dorks that actually benefit more than the usual ones since they interact directly with lands. I still have Birds and two other elves as well.
Selvala, Heart of the Wilds is another dork that allows you the mana surge you need to pump out the last bit of the combo as well as being a draw engine since Zacama is probably going to be the biggest guy on the field.
I also shaved a few of the bounce guys and less good ramp for additional tutors and card draw ie Greater Good, Rishkar's Expertise, Harmonize, Wheel of Fortune. I'm going to test Natural Order as an additional tutor, but I'm not sold yet.
Since I have more dorks in the list I shaved a few lands to add in Seeds of Innocence, Stony Silence, and Rest in Peace as some one sided hate pieces since we have a solid tutor package. I'm going to try Blood Moon and maybe Blood Sun at some point, but that'll be once I play a little more and find the clunkier parts of the deck to cut. My feeling is that Blood Moon hurts the nonbasic Forest count too much.
The draw is probably the best way to go. If you have Greater Good and a mana doubler in play and just cast out Zacama, draw 9 cards, untap all your lands, gain extra mana, sacrifice Zacama, draw 9... yeah so its a bit like Food Chain in that you gain mana, enough to cast out your deck and win. So yeah I think its a must.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
I've removed the higher casting land fetch cards, and opted for cheaper casting cards that still mana ramp, and also added planeswalkers that provide extra mana and/or draw.
Removed:
Added:
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Removed
So the list of cards that I really want to have in the deck is follows, but I just can't find slots yet:
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
I found two more mana doublers in: Keeper of Progenitus and Dictate of Karametra. With 13 mana doublers, you are almost certain to have one in play at some stage with untapped lands. It also changes the dynamics of getting multiple of them into play, so that you can recast Zacama (with a sacrifice outlet) to get more mana. Its the same as Food Chain in that you gain mana, but the Commander Tax increases, so you reach a threshold where you will no longer gain mana.
I've worked out that with 7 lands you'll gain about 33+ mana and with 9 lands you'll gain 80+ mana. These example assume that you have mana doubler in play and then are untapping, then playing a secondary mana doubler, and looping Zacama with a sacrifice outlet.
So the importance of sacrifice outlets is now more of a priority, but now I'm only running Greater Good.
Another thing with having more of a big draw deck, is that actually putting an game ending card into the deck, I think is important for competitive play.
I was thinking Purphoros, God of the Forge as a finisher, as it can be creature tutored and just efficient to put onto the board.
However, with sacrifice outlets being important, I think Goblin Bombardment actually meets both a win condition and a sacrifice outlet.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Removed:
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Removed:
Wanted another win-condition and Shivan Gorge allows you to kill everyone with infinite Zacama casting and an extra land was needed for the deck.
I play a meta heavy control playgroup, so counterspells are the normal, and this is a combo deck, so the ability to go off in a turn means that you can set up for it with Dragonlord Dromoka. There is a lot of creature tutors in the deck, so you can be patient and set up lands then get a turn where you can do what you want.
Removed Fauna Shaman because the creature count is at 18, which is a bit on the low side to consistently gain value, and there are a lot of creature tutors already. Decided to leave in Survival of the Fittest, its instant use means that its still good.
Removed Gauntlet of Power as its the worst of mana doublers for this decks configuration.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Removed:
This deck goes off very easily if not disrupted, so adding Sylvan Safekeeper, Grand Abolisher as further protection in combo turns is a must.
Summer Bloom ended up just being a win-more card, rather than necessary to a combo turn.
I needed to add a white source for "mountain" fetches. Being able to play a first turn Land Tax or Enlightened Tutor off a fetch land that only can get mountains, is something that came up.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Regal Force
Removed:
Grand Abolisher
I found many games where I wanted to turn a creature tutor into a draw card, so even if the draw is like 3-4 cards, its good enough. Temur Sabertooth can bounce it for unlimited draw with the combo.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Removed:
The deck has so much redundancy with same type of cards, that Eternal Witness isn't actually that good in this deck.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
So with this in mind, I like to run a Sunforger package which runs a number of disruption cards. The trade off for running more disruption is removing some of the speed of the deck and also infinite mana combo cards. The idea is to setup for a storm combo turn more. Once you are drawing heaps of cards, you should find tutors for Temur Sabertooth, to still go infinite. You'll need to be more patient, getting a few less lands into play early, but setting up for an undisruptable combo turn more.
I often do this but when I want to make a truly competitive deck I'll add both Pyroblast and Red Elemental Blast to a deck if in Red. It seems bad to run these if not playing against blue decks, but honestly if there is no blue at the table, then you are probably winning. Its more consistent and faster than most decks outside of blue.
Added:
Removed:
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
I removed the High Market, because I just find myself comboing off consistently without needing to use this sac ability to gain mana.
Added
Winding Canyons
Removed
High Market
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
I noticed before you had Purphoros that could work with the infinite bouncing. But can't see it in your deck anymore. Hope your guide to how to play this comes out soon!
Can't wait!
I have often passed the turn with Zacama, Regal Behemoth, Vorinclex, etc, cleared opponents boards, and then simple attack players over a couple of turns as well. I'll have the Sunforger equipped, ready to navigate around opponents best efforts to stop me. Normally I can just use Teferi's Protection, and this prevents opponents from disrupting me. Or often you can just bounce all your creatures with Temur Sabertooth in response to a wrath effect and then setup again. Opponents soon figure out that there is little they can do. I was going to play Kamahl, Fist of Krosa as a finishers, as it can turn opponents lands into creatures and then kill then with Zacama 3 damage to creatures, and obviously you can make your creatures infinitely big, but in the end, you just need the Shivan Gorge, so the slots in the deck are better served for the setup, rather than the finish.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
I'm honing in on the right mix and I've decided to take out Conqueror's Flail, Stoneforge Mystic, as the Sunforger can be a little on the slow side. If you come up against another combo deck, you want to be able to go to the races as well.
So in the end I've put back more of the land ramp, it makes the deck more consistent.
There are only 15 creatures in the deck now, so Survival of the Fittest isn't the most reliable card in this deck, so removed it.
Added
Removed
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SY8h2vp5Xis
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith