The thread for brewing a deck was started here Zur the Rebel [Let's Brew!] in the main EDH forum. Credit to Rick Amundson for his article on Zur Zombies with Arcane Adaptation (please check out the article here) and to Morgan Whiting-Fawcett for suggesting trying Rebels with this type of idea.
The basic idea is to use Arcane Adaptation or Conspiracy naming "Rebel", so that the Rebels in the deck can search for ANY creature (non-Rebels included) at the specified converted-mana-cost. This is of course a very powerful ability.
There are a lot of ways to build the way you win, but in this version I have an Enchantment and Creature tool box that plays a control shell. The idea is once you are set up with a Rebel who can tutor and with the cards Arcane Adaptation or Conspiracy, you can search your library in response to spells your opponents plays to basically counter what they are doing, or prevent them from stopping your win-condition. Zur the Enchanter main purpose is to search for Arcane Adaptation, but there are a few other cards that can help with the theme, like Training Grounds to make the Rebel activation's cost less. Of course Zur can then get other enchantments to help draw/removal/utility.
Like any control deck, you need to weather the initial storm. Although there are 34 creatures in the deck, they are not the best for blocking other creatures, so expect a low life total before you take over the game.
There are 9 Rebels who can search your library for other "Rebel" cards. 5 of these can search for 3 converted mana cost or less, so one of the main keys of the deck, is that the bulk of the creatures are 3 CMC or less.
The creatures in the deck, have some sort of disruption or protection, so that you try and stop your opponents from their power plays and also to protect what you are doing.
Of note, no Necropotence, basically just I feel that it distracts from the main theme, but also drawing cards can be detrimental as often you are looking to cheat them into play from your library, and in fact having the "toolbox" cards in your hand is a real downside.
This is a control deck and actually plays a longer game normally. You really should assume that you have to wade through all that your opponents are doing, but that is the fun of the deck.
Choosing Zur the Enchanter as your commander will often lead to games where its you versus all the other players. Justified or not, expect it, Zur is a powerful commander and people are used to Necropotence, etc.
The Setup
The combo is Arcane Adaptation with at least one Rebel that can tap to get your toolbox of creatures.
There are 9 Rebels that can tutor for other rebels. This means that you have a 50% chance of having one of these in your starting 7.
So actually assume that you wont be playing one out in your early game. Should you mull to get one? The answer is no. Mulls are for ensuring lands and at least some relevant spells.
So assuming that you won't always have a Rebel until later into the game, patience is needed.
There is very little mana acceleration in the deck, so short of Sol Ring or Mana Crypt, you'll be playing your cards at a curve of a land drop a turn.
Playing out Zur on turn 4 is risky. Jamming him is always a case of "I hope my opponents don't kill him", but more often than not you just have to go for it. The best cards to have early game for this are Mother of Runes, Kira, Great Glass-Spinner, Spellskite or Selfless Spirit to offer protection. If you do have a counter spell, then waiting for the turn 5 or 6 play is definitely worth considering.
If you get to attack with Zur, the first target should always be Vanishing. Trust me once this is in effect, you'll have Zur for the rest of the game, and this is hard to beat as it offers so much value.
You do get games, where you fail to draw a Rebel for a while so you can spend an amount of time using Zur to control the board, with the likes of Grasp of Fate, Stony Silence, Detention Sphere.
However if you do have a Rebel on the board, and the board is not too out of control, then fetch Arcane Adaptation and let the games begin!
Getting Training Grounds on subsequent turn really helps with freeing up your mana, tapping your Rebels for less.
Know your Toolbox
The creatures in the deck are designed to deal with the main power plays your opponents are doing. As mentioned, 5/9 of the Rebels get 3 CMC or less, so expect your intial setup for this range of CMC creatures.
If you do get a turn off to fetch another Rebel, then you'll want to get Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero. Having two tutoring Rebels will give you the flexibility to handle more situations.
One thing to be aware of is the multiple options at your disposal, as sometimes you'll actually have the toolbox creature in your hand at the time of spells being cast, which means your best option is not availble.
We have 5 creatures that can counter spells, these are of course your most versatile as far as dealing with anything your opponents are doing.
There are a number of creatures that can protect your board. Kira, Great Glass-Spinner is the best for stopping spot removal on your creatures. Spellskite offers all your permanents protection, but be careful as this does get shut off by your own Stony Silence.
Opponent plays spot removal on non-creature permanent. You can fetch Flickerwisp to phase out your permanent. Spellskite can be used to redirect target. You can get Leonin Relic-Warder if its an artifact or enchantment and remove it yourself, looking to get the Leonin Relic-Warder killed at a later stage. Restoration Specialist can be used to get an enchantment/artifact back.
Opponent plays a destroy all creatures. You can get Selfless Spirit. (see the exile example of how to deal if you have this in hand)
Opponent plays an exile all creatures.Vanishing helps with saving Zur. You really want to save at least one Rebel, so you can get Flickerwisp, Fiend Hunter or Stonecloaker to remove the Rebel, and it will return after everything else is removed.
Opponent plays an all permanents board wipe. Chances are you'll need use a countering effect for this, but you can navigate around it if this is not available to you. You'll want a Rebel plus Arcane Adaptation post wipe, so phase out Zur with Vanishing, then Flickerwisp or Leonin Relic-Warder the Arcane Adaptation. On your turn you can get Necromancy with Zur to get a Rebel back. This will enable you to setup again. I've actually used this line even when countering is available to me, because it puts you so far ahead of everybody else once the board has been cleared.
Opponent comboing with a many spell in a turn win. Either Eidolon of Rhetoric or Spirit of the Labyrinth. You can also get these creatures with Zurs ability as the are both enchantments.
Opponent has Voltron untargettable/unblockable Commander - Zur can get Darksteel Mutation. Zur or Rebels can also get Bound in Silence. Note putting these into play via the search abilities circumnavigate targetting.
How do you win?
This deck plays out to literally stop whatever your opponents are doing mid-late game, and your troupes with the help of Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite is enough to finish the game.
Weaknesses of the deck?
As stated, expect to be very hated on. You're are going to be attacked a lot during the course of your setup. Low life total are the norm for you. It turns out that fair creature decks, really do just beat you down, as your creatures are not designed to be good blockers. Ghostly Prison and Propaganda might actually be early targets from Zur if you find yourself playing against fair creature decks. Your creature toolbox is really only designed to stop combo creatures, rather than the hordes.
What if Zur get removed before you can get Vanishing? Sometimes you'll just never get the opportunity to get him out again. Expect some games where this happens, and you just have to play the game out with natural draws. I have won a game with never been able to attack with Zur. I played out Conspiracy naturally with Rebels on the board. There is Vamperic Tutor, Enlightened Tutor and Demonic Tutor to possibly get AA or a Rebel without Zur ability.
Most games I win I'll be on single digit life total. But I personally love that sort of challenge, not for the weak of heart.
Be careful with Conspiracy. Arcane Adaptation and this card are different. Conspiracy will remove the creatures normal types, where as Arcane Adaptation still keeps them, so Necrotic Sliver and Voidmage Prodigy will no longer be valid.
Man, don't make me make a second Zur deck. You're combining my love of Zur and Rebels!
One card I could suggest is Mistveil Plains, it'll let you recycle cards which you can then tutor back up with Zur or your Rebels.
Will slot it in. I was playing Sun Titan, Replenish and Auramancer it the initial versions of the deck, but I just found that it was better to sculpt your game plan and deck around being more patient to set up protection, rather than graveyard recursion, as exile effects got me instead. But lands are basically "free", so I'm keen on this.
Added Flickerwisp, Banisher Preist, Mana Drain, Ghostly Prison
Forget to remove the Jace's Archivist, Notion Thief from list and the added Ghostly Prison.
After playing some more games I didn't like Jace's Archivist as single card, its just not good on its own in this deck, so removed the secondary win-condition all together. This might be a mistake, but needing to get 2 creatures is harder than obviously just getting the one. I would like to have a secondary win-con in the deck, so if anybody can come up with suggestions for either a 2 card creature combo where the CMC of each is 3 or less. But I really want the creatures to be functional on their own (greedy I know, but I'm sure its out there).
Or a creature and <= 3 CMC Enchantment that combos. Combos don't necessarily need to be instant wins, but just something that going to give you inevitability.
Thx for the primer. This “Zur and his AA group” combo can work with any tribal under the Esper color, creativity be praised!
I will test your deck tonight on Cocktrice tonight. :3
I've updated the OP, to have a guide on how to play, hopefully this will help with general game plan of playing this type of deck. Make no mistake with so many options its hard deck to play, sequencing is everything and on top of that the general hate from all players, makes this an advanced deck to play in my opinion.
I've updated the OP, to have a guide on how to play, hopefully this will help with general game plan of playing this type of deck. Make no mistake with so many options its hard deck to play, sequencing is everything and on top of that the general hate from all players, makes this an advanced deck to play in my opinion.
Thankee. I'm sure different people would harbor different type of tools, some more combo oriented and some less so. I tested the deck and learned the hard lesson of getting AA without at least a counterspell in hand.
I am aware that you will likely not include it (for the same reason as Necropotence), but Contamination is obviously in the most powerful version of the deck - rebels + Contamination should win a lot of games easily. Also, Mirror entity is the best rebel tutor target ever, if the Zur/the enchantment is stopped (most rebels are small and requires alot of mana).
I am aware that you will likely not include it (for the same reason as Necropotence), but Contamination is obviously in the most powerful version of the deck - rebels + Contamination should win a lot of games easily. Also, Mirror entity is the best rebel tutor target ever, if the Zur/the enchantment is stopped (most rebels are small and requires alot of mana).
Interestingly I've found that once I have my Zur + Rebel setup, I actually never want to cast a card from my hand the rest of the game. In fact I never want to draw a card for the rest of the game, except lands for hitting land drops. Contamination does shut off Vanishing, and a few hard counter instants, but in theory because I get to select the situation for fetching Contamination, as nasty of a card as it is, I've put it into the deck because it works perfectly. So I've actually taken out Rhystic Study and put in Land Tax instead. I changed my land base to have 6 more basics.
Thankee. I'm sure different people would harbor different type of tools, some more combo oriented and some less so. I tested the deck and learned the hard lesson of getting AA without at least a counterspell in hand.
I played a lot of games yesterday, and ran against a bunch of different deck types, and it was a good lesson in knowing what more "Toolbox" was needed for various situations. So I've made quite a few changes.
Added: Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite - needed something I could fetch to stop the go wide strategies, was just getting overwhelmed sometimes with small hordes Silent Arbiter - Although a nonbo with Steward of Solidarity, I can remove this creature with Contamination/Detention Sphere, when ready Eidolon of Rhetoric - For combo decks that look to play lots of cards to basically win in a single turn. Countering one spell noramlly not good enough in these strategies. Spirit of the Labyrinth can also probably stop these to an extent, but having this is key Contamination - Basically never needing to cast a card from hand for rest of game when have Zur + Rebel Lightning Greaves - Removed Null Rod and Energy Flux, so this card got better Land Tax - Only wanting to draw lands when setup Righteous Aura - Didn't have an answer for Voltron Commanders that I couldn't target
3 x Islands, 3 x Plains - Mainly for Land Tax Mistveil Plains
Removed: Rhystic Study - Drawing in this deck is actually bad. Its actually preferable if you never draw a card for the entire game once you have Zur + Rebel Energy Flux - I found that just being able to fetch Stony Silence is enough to stop the seriously focused artifact strategies Null Rod Search for Azcanta - I love this this card but not necessary to the overall theme Aura of Silence - Grasp of Fate and Detention Sphere will have to be good enough to get rid of artifact/enchantments that are hosing me Toxic Deluge - Just trying to keep all the "answers" in the deck to creatures and enchantments Advarkar Wastes, Drowned Catacomb, Nimbus Maze, City of Brass, Glacial Fortress, Mana Confluence, Underground River, Winding Canyons- Playing basics instead, mainly for Land Tax
I've added a Scroll Rack, as I found that I'd have the card in hand that I would prefer to deploy at instant speed through the Rebel and Arcane Adaptation combo. Also works nice with Land Tax, and there are multiple shuffle effects with the ways of tutoring and also fetch lands.
I took out Contamination, because playing more casual playgroups and never had the heart to tutor for it.
Alright so I've been exclusively play this deck for a couple of weeks now, and racked up about 30 games. The final version I'm nearing to, I've actually taken out the infinite combo of Intruder Alarm + Steward of Solidarity/Bloodline Keeper as I found that simply getting control is safer and winning is just inevitable once you are setup anyway, so slots are better for keeping the deck more versatile.
I think I would like to go more hate bear with it. Instant fetch out a leonin arbiter seems fun and cruel. Harder, but fetching a Ob Nixilis, Unshackled at instant speed? Yes please.
I think I would like to go more hate bear with it. Instant fetch out a leonin arbiter seems fun and cruel. Harder, but fetching a Ob Nixilis, Unshackled at instant speed? Yes please.
I thought about Leonin Arbiter, but the fact that the decks does so much searching itself, its actually a problem. Because you probably doing it for Zur in your turn, and then you want to respond with a Rebel search in another players turn, so have to pay for it again. But there a re defiantly some more hate-bears around if you wanted to go further with it. Ethersworn Canonist is something I'm seriously considering.
Alright so I've been exclusively play this deck for a couple of weeks now, and racked up about 30 games. The final version I'm nearing to, I've actually taken out the infinite combo of Intruder Alarm + Steward of Solidarity/Bloodline Keeper as I found that simply getting control is safer and winning is just inevitable once you are setup anyway, so slots are better for keeping the deck more versatile.
I've collected nearly all the cards for this deck at this point, though I wanted to focus on a non-infinite controlling build to begin with. Thus I really like where your list is going. I will compare it to my initial list, probably adapt that list, and then post my adaptation (pun definitly intended) later after I actually had the time to do so.
In the mean time, what do you think of:
Godhead of Awe to go with that Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite? It's a one sided board wipe + softlock and unlike Humility does not shut down our own ETB trigger abuse. Not sure the deck needs it, but Massacre Wurm is a brutal combo with this one as well. anyway, EOT fetch one, in your turn fetch the other.
Fountain Watch as some redundancy for Greater Auramancy since the deck relies on it's enchantments so much? Even better if you get both out
[quote from="darrenhabib »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/multiplayer-commander-decklists/785532-zur-and-rebels-lin-sivvis-crew-for-toolbox-control?comment=12"]I've collected nearly all the cards for this deck at this point, though I wanted to focus on a non-infinite controlling build to begin with. Thus I really like where your list is going. I will compare it to my initial list, probably adapt that list, and then post my adaptation (pun definitly intended) later after I actually had the time to do so.
In the mean time, what do you think of:
Godhead of Awe to go with that Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite? It's a one sided board wipe + softlock and unlike Humility does not shut down our own ETB trigger abuse. Not sure the deck needs it, but Massacre Wurm is a brutal combo with this one as well. anyway, EOT fetch one, in your turn fetch the other.
Fountain Watch as some redundancy for Greater Auramancy since the deck relies on it's enchantments so much? Even better if you get both out
I've been looking for another "finisher" to Elesh Norn, so Godhead of Awe could be a winner. As I pointed out the creatures do not block well, even this on its own levels the playing field when it comes to attacking and blocking, which will help. I thought about Copy Enchantment, but as you say the only real targets are Greater Auramancy and Training Grounds. I find that realistically only going to have the "time" to get the one Greater Auramancy, getting another turn for another is probably going to be far and few between, as needing to use Zur for removal is quite often needed. Same with Training Grounds, mana management is pretty good once you get one out, its probably more likely that you get another disruption or lock piece, most games. Muddle the Mixture is perfect, in it goes, but Swan Song stays, Negate goes.
So instead of making my own fully adapted list first and then change it after input from you and hopefully others in this thread, I want to do it the other way around. I will post my initial list here, discuss what I think are the most notable differences between our lists. Overall though, you run more removal and control pieces, I focussed more on exploiting ETB abilities, using sac outlets to sac the creatures in response, thus never letting whatever got exiled get back. Note that this is a list I made when we were still brainstorming in CyberiumNeo's thread, so it also does not include my own more recent suggestions. sorry for the wall of text, but I look forwards to your thoughts.
The primary focus of this deck as I said is reusing ETB abilities on Oblivion Ring style creatures, saccing them in response to their own ETB trigger thus making sure that whatever they exiled will never come back. Ashnod's Altar. I feel this gives this deck a lot of it's power though in comparison with your list, I might have gone too all in on it making this too much of a glass cannon. I definitly want to keep this engine in the deck, but the eventual version will need to be able to hold it's own if this is disrupted. If you have Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero[c/], Training Grounds, Arcane Adaptation and Ashnod's Altar then you can reuse any ETB ability on any of your creatures with cmc 3 or less for 2: Sac it to the altar for 2. Spend 1 on Sivvi's last ability to put the creature on the bottom of your library then spend the other 1 to have Sivvi put it back int play. While you initially ran Intruder Alarm, I opted to go with Faces of the Past instead (as I feel this will do less for my opponents) to really kick this setup into overdrive to amass enough advantage to close out the game with it. This is the reason I included Trophy Mage: it finds Ashnod's Altar. The deck can gain infinite life.
As for turning it into a more general contol deck, I think I ought to go with the full hatebears package. At first I was afraid it would draw to much hate my way but I think slowing down my opponents down might be more important.
For returning stuff: I actually included Pull from Eternity + Kaho, Minamo Historian to go find it, because a lot of the removal I face in my meta is exile, and having Arcane Adaptation, Training Grounds and/or Conspiracy exiled really bites. This will allow the deck to recover even from that. Maybe this is too overkill protection wise as it eats two slots and Greater Auramancy might protect enough already. Phyrexian Reclamation can be like a backup for Sivvi. After saccing a creature, just return it to hand and recast it. It's a bit more mana intensive but it keeps the basic engine going. I'm running Hanna, Ship's Navigator instead of Restoration Specialist... not sure which is better. I alos have Skull of Orm in there, that's a bit costly to use. I think I would prefer running the Restoration Specialist in it's place besides Hanna.
For finishers, I initially went with Aegis angel (double duty to protect Arcane Adaptation) and Mirror Entity. I actually like the newer combination of Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite+Godhead of Awe as it allows you to control more opponents at the same time. Mirror Entity is actually a really nice addition as you can overwrite the p/t settings of the godhead for a turn. So I think my finisher package would be Elesh Norn, Godhead and Mirror Entity. Not sure if there's still room for the Angel at that point as for purely a protection card 6 mana is a bit steep but the fact it synergizes on two different levels might make it worthwhile nevertheless.
This deck has no ramp outside of Land Tax. I did include Trinket Mage, mostly to find Elixir of Immortality. Being able to repeatedly activate the Elixir is a sort of backup for Sivvi's second ability: the repeated lifegain is just gravy. I included three artifacts in the lands so it can find those too. How I did not include Sol Ring is beyond me: it should obviously be in. If the eventual deck can consistently gain enough / infinite life then Mana Crypt might be good too.
As I play mostly multiplayer, Portal Mage and Merieke ri Berit seem really good here to be able to mess with combat after attackers have been declared: just send the ugly stuff somewhere else or borrow a blocker. Merieke also offers a way to deal with resilient creatures besides exiling.
Aegis of the Gods is there mostly to prevent graveyard exiling. Most graveyard exiling effects target the opponent you want to do it too, this is the tech to preven that from happening (Point that Bojuka Bog elsewhere please).
Last but not least, both Mistmeadow Witch and Azorius Guildmage have really powerfull activated abilities. Training Grounds makes these really affordable. There's always something usefull you can use these on: the witch can blink your own creatures in response to their etb getting you another trigger and never returning the thing exiled with the first one. It can make a creature summoning sick again so it can't attack you. You can go diplomatic with it by giving others triggers in exchange for favors. It's just an amazing card. The guildmage the same way. Tapping a creature is not that exciting (even though really usefull) but having Stifle as an activated ability available on hand is so powerful, people will really have to play around you having this. Countering a fetch land's ability is one thing, but there are so many things you can counter with this it's not even funny (on he other side of the table that is).
Tidehollow Sculler is another card I think really deserves to be in the deck to allow you to attack cards in hand directly. Since this deck can get in in play on instant speed, this can be sweet tech to exile whatever an opponent who is in trouble just spend his tutor on during his draw step.
As I'm writing this: would this deck not benefit hugely from a Panharmonicon?
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So instead of making my own fully adapted list first and then change it after input from you and hopefully others in this thread, I want to do it the other way around. I will post my initial list here, discuss what I think are the most notable differences between our lists. Overall though, you run more removal and control pieces, I focussed more on exploiting ETB abilities, using sac outlets to sac the creatures in response, thus never letting whatever got exiled get back. Note that this is a list I made when we were still brainstorming in CyberiumNeo's thread, so it also does not include my own more recent suggestions. sorry for the wall of text, but I look forwards to your thoughts.
The primary focus of this deck as I said is reusing ETB abilities on Oblivion Ring style creatures, saccing them in response to their own ETB trigger thus making sure that whatever they exiled will never come back. Ashnod's Altar. I feel this gives this deck a lot of it's power though in comparison with your list, I might have gone too all in on it making this too much of a glass cannon. I definitly want to keep this engine in the deck, but the eventual version will need to be able to hold it's own if this is disrupted. If you have Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero[c/], Training Grounds, Arcane Adaptation and Ashnod's Altar then you can reuse any ETB ability on any of your creatures with cmc 3 or less for 2: Sac it to the altar for 2. Spend 1 on Sivvi's last ability to put the creature on the bottom of your library then spend the other 1 to have Sivvi put it back int play. While you initially ran Intruder Alarm, I opted to go with Faces of the Past instead (as I feel this will do less for my opponents) to really kick this setup into overdrive to amass enough advantage to close out the game with it. This is the reason I included Trophy Mage: it finds Ashnod's Altar. The deck can gain infinite life.
As for turning it into a more general contol deck, I think I ought to go with the full hatebears package. At first I was afraid it would draw to much hate my way but I think slowing down my opponents down might be more important.
For returning stuff: I actually included Pull from Eternity + Kaho, Minamo Historian to go find it, because a lot of the removal I face in my meta is exile, and having Arcane Adaptation, Training Grounds and/or Conspiracy exiled really bites. This will allow the deck to recover even from that. Maybe this is too overkill protection wise as it eats two slots and Greater Auramancy might protect enough already. Phyrexian Reclamation can be like a backup for Sivvi. After saccing a creature, just return it to hand and recast it. It's a bit more mana intensive but it keeps the basic engine going. I'm running Hanna, Ship's Navigator instead of Restoration Specialist... not sure which is better. I alos have Skull of Orm in there, that's a bit costly to use. I think I would prefer running the Restoration Specialist in it's place besides Hanna.
For finishers, I initially went with Aegis angel (double duty to protect Arcane Adaptation) and Mirror Entity. I actually like the newer combination of Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite+Godhead of Awe as it allows you to control more opponents at the same time. Mirror Entity is actually a really nice addition as you can overwrite the p/t settings of the godhead for a turn. So I think my finisher package would be Elesh Norn, Godhead and Mirror Entity. Not sure if there's still room for the Angel at that point as for purely a protection card 6 mana is a bit steep but the fact it synergizes on two different levels might make it worthwhile nevertheless.
This deck has no ramp outside of Land Tax. I did include Trinket Mage, mostly to find Elixir of Immortality. Being able to repeatedly activate the Elixir is a sort of backup for Sivvi's second ability: the repeated lifegain is just gravy. I included three artifacts in the lands so it can find those too. How I did not include Sol Ring is beyond me: it should obviously be in. If the eventual deck can consistently gain enough / infinite life then Mana Crypt might be good too.
As I play mostly multiplayer, Portal Mage and Merieke ri Berit seem really good here to be able to mess with combat after attackers have been declared: just send the ugly stuff somewhere else or borrow a blocker. Merieke also offers a way to deal with resilient creatures besides exiling.
Aegis of the Gods is there mostly to prevent graveyard exiling. Most graveyard exiling effects target the opponent you want to do it too, this is the tech to preven that from happening (Point that Bojuka Bog elsewhere please).
Last but not least, both Mistmeadow Witch and Azorius Guildmage have really powerfull activated abilities. Training Grounds makes these really affordable. There's always something usefull you can use these on: the witch can blink your own creatures in response to their etb getting you another trigger and never returning the thing exiled with the first one. It can make a creature summoning sick again so it can't attack you. You can go diplomatic with it by giving others triggers in exchange for favors. It's just an amazing card. The guildmage the same way. Tapping a creature is not that exciting (even though really usefull) but having Stifle as an activated ability available on hand is so powerful, people will really have to play around you having this. Countering a fetch land's ability is one thing, but there are so many things you can counter with this it's not even funny (on he other side of the table that is).
Tidehollow Sculler is another card I think really deserves to be in the deck to allow you to attack cards in hand directly. Since this deck can get in in play on instant speed, this can be sweet tech to exile whatever an opponent who is in trouble just spend his tutor on during his draw step.
As I'm writing this: would this deck not benefit hugely from a Panharmonicon?
I actually have another Esper deck using Ertai, the Corrupted as Commander with the idea of abusing the exile effects on the stack for permanent removal as well. I build and play a lot of Commander decks, its my main hobby, so experiment with a lot of ideas.
The Ashnods Altar engine idea is cool, I didn't think of that interaction. You have a lot more graveyard interaction, so I'd take out the Elixir of Immortality as I think you're going to want as much of your GY being a resource throughout the game.
As you've already pointed out, Skull of Orm is too mana intensive. Monk Idealist is your key card here. Maybe run Auramancer as well?
One thing you'll find is that your creature suite basically are not good for blocking, so you end up getting bashed down to low life points, well or dead. The setup is a mid/late game type thing, so you'll be on the back foot most of the game.
I came up against a Zur mirror the other day and they were running Phyrexian Unlife + Solemnity, for a combo that means that they can't die due to "damage". Its kind of tempting to run this over life gain, as both these cards are not dead on their own, Phyrexian Unlife is kind of like gain 10 life, and Solemnity nulls a lot of deck archtypes.
Aegis of the Gods is a good call, I really have had situations where I wanted to have this at my disposal. This card is more important in your deck, because GY is a major resource.
I had Merieke Ri Berit in my deck, when I had Intruder Alarm as well, as a backup win-con, but not sure if its good enough without recurring its ability? I don't think the Faces of the Past really works with it. I'd probably take it out over an ETB creature of some sort.
I do think you're too light on ETB creatures for the blink theme in general, so much of the deck is the Rebels and other non-ETB creatures, that I'd look to get at least 3 more into the deck somehow. I'd look at Venser, Shaper Savant, Gilded Drake, Recruiter of the Guard.
For this reason I wouldn't play Panharmonicon, but I would play Brago, King Eternal. You could also look at Eldrazi Displacer, but you'd need to have a mana base that runs all the "Pain" lands like Underground River, etc, along with Sol Ring and Mana Crypt.
Grasp of Fate is a super star, even if you can't do the exile trick, the ability to remove the 3 most important cards for each opponent is a must.
Maybe you should run Phyrexian Altar as well? Obviously not nearly as good, but still allows for recursion at a higher mana rate, as a backup.
The thing when I look at your deck and how my games go, is that your always going to be cramped on mana, big time. Interestingly when I have Zur + Rebel + Arcane Adaption, I basically never want to draw another card for the entire game, only mana and instant speed counterspells. But mana is still always tied up without ever casting another spell. Your deck will be the same, but even more focus on graveyard recursion requiring even more mana.
It is possible that you need some artifact mana to keep up with you mana needs, like the Signets. I have the same problem, but I have Stony Silence in the deck, so try to punish others that also have this idea, and slow the game down.
I really like the Trinket Mage and Trophy Mage, there is an argument for a few more 3 CMC artifacts, like Chromatic Lantern and Coalition Relic so that a blink engine can fuel your mana needs more? Funnily enough Skullclamp, would allow you to draw lots of cards, but its a weird deck type where card draw is not really good.
Esper colors obviously suffer from little land accelerates, but if you do end up with a deck that does go for more draws then I would recommend Walking Atlas. Kind of a "tech card" for me in blue/white decks. Goes nice with Land Tax, and even Trinket Mage blinking to get your artifact lands. Only reason I don't have it in my deck is because I'm not drawing much and Stony Silence.
My only other words of advice, is that any toolbox deck takes at least a handful of games, before you get comfortable with how you can use all your tools. There are so many options to you that making the correct lines of play will not be easy, and your first games will have loads of mistakes, so don't be discouraged by some bad beats.
Anyway I think the Ashnods Altar/Lin Sivvi/Aracne Adaption engine is a sweet one, so its just going to be a case of how you get there without dying to creature bashes mainly.
I like Solemnity + Phyrexian Unlife as well because it allows for a easy comboing if you wanted to take that route. In my play group, most decks contain some combo because it is just so hard to actually win otherwise. Just include Viscera Seer and Geralf's Messenger (both tutorable easily with our tool-box combo) and win.
Foolishly didn't have Brainstorm in the deck. Great for putting back cards into your deck, to be tutored by Rebel or Zur static abilities. Took out Silent Arbiter.
The combo is nice because, especially in group games of 4 to 6 players, combo wins are useful. And with one enchantment out, and pretty much any two rebels, you can win out of nowhere in the combat step. But once people learned I had that combo, I because a huge target. Everyone already dislikes this deck because it can answer ANYTHING at instant speed so the combo makes the deck bigger target. I want to try replacing Viscera Seer with Trophy Mage and running an Ashnod's Altar (because Trophy Mage finds more things than just this combo, and scrying doesn't really do anything for this deck), but haven't gotten around to it yet.
In other news, a friend of mine loves my version of the deck and may be making his own soon. Thanks for sharing this brew, it is the most fun with EDH I've had in awhile!
The combo is nice because, especially in group games of 4 to 6 players, combo wins are useful. And with one enchantment out, and pretty much any two rebels, you can win out of nowhere in the combat step. But once people learned I had that combo, I because a huge target. Everyone already dislikes this deck because it can answer ANYTHING at instant speed so the combo makes the deck bigger target. I want to try replacing Viscera Seer with Trophy Mage and running an Ashnod's Altar (because Trophy Mage finds more things than just this combo, and scrying doesn't really do anything for this deck), but haven't gotten around to it yet.
In other news, a friend of mine loves my version of the deck and may be making his own soon. Thanks for sharing this brew, it is the most fun with EDH I've had in awhile!
Yeah it's been my favorite deck in a while as well and I play a lot of Commander and a lot of decks.
You could run Fanatical Devotion and/or Martyr's Cause as sacrifice outlet for your combo, obviously with Zur being able to fetch them.
I have tried Phyrexian Reclamation as a means to get multiple uses out of creatures, but I found it underwhelming, life loss, plus recasting was too much. But I like the look of Angelic Renewal, and I have been unimpressed with Bound in Silence, so I'm going to do the swap and see how goes. Gift of Immortality is obviously a good card, but with Zur, Vanishing is the way to go for protection, so I think taking the time/turn for Gift is a bit narrow considering what creatures are really good for it and they can still can be Swords or Pathed.
I have tried Phyrexian Reclamation as a means to get multiple uses out of creatures, but I found it underwhelming, life loss, plus recasting was too much. But I like the look of Angelic Renewal, and I have been unimpressed with Bound in Silence, so I'm going to do the swap and see how goes. Gift of Immortality is obviously a good card, but with Zur, Vanishing is the way to go for protection, so I think taking the time/turn for Gift is a bit narrow considering what creatures are really good for it and they can still can be Swords or Pathed.
Angelic Renewal has the benefit of not targeting, so it could be put down before important creature comes into play. Sun Titan will retrieve it when you need it back.
How frequently do you find Godhead of Awe useful? It's great with Elesh Norn, but when I tested the deck I usually get Norn and at times forget about Godhead all together.
The basic idea is to use Arcane Adaptation or Conspiracy naming "Rebel", so that the Rebels in the deck can search for ANY creature (non-Rebels included) at the specified converted-mana-cost. This is of course a very powerful ability.
There are a lot of ways to build the way you win, but in this version I have an Enchantment and Creature tool box that plays a control shell. The idea is once you are set up with a Rebel who can tutor and with the cards Arcane Adaptation or Conspiracy, you can search your library in response to spells your opponents plays to basically counter what they are doing, or prevent them from stopping your win-condition. Zur the Enchanter main purpose is to search for Arcane Adaptation, but there are a few other cards that can help with the theme, like Training Grounds to make the Rebel activation's cost less. Of course Zur can then get other enchantments to help draw/removal/utility.
Like any control deck, you need to weather the initial storm. Although there are 34 creatures in the deck, they are not the best for blocking other creatures, so expect a low life total before you take over the game.
There are 9 Rebels who can search your library for other "Rebel" cards. 5 of these can search for 3 converted mana cost or less, so one of the main keys of the deck, is that the bulk of the creatures are 3 CMC or less.
The creatures in the deck, have some sort of disruption or protection, so that you try and stop your opponents from their power plays and also to protect what you are doing.
Of note, no Necropotence, basically just I feel that it distracts from the main theme, but also drawing cards can be detrimental as often you are looking to cheat them into play from your library, and in fact having the "toolbox" cards in your hand is a real downside.
This is a control deck and actually plays a longer game normally. You really should assume that you have to wade through all that your opponents are doing, but that is the fun of the deck.
Choosing Zur the Enchanter as your commander will often lead to games where its you versus all the other players. Justified or not, expect it, Zur is a powerful commander and people are used to Necropotence, etc.
The Setup
The combo is Arcane Adaptation with at least one Rebel that can tap to get your toolbox of creatures.
There are 9 Rebels that can tutor for other rebels. This means that you have a 50% chance of having one of these in your starting 7.
So actually assume that you wont be playing one out in your early game. Should you mull to get one? The answer is no. Mulls are for ensuring lands and at least some relevant spells.
So assuming that you won't always have a Rebel until later into the game, patience is needed.
There is very little mana acceleration in the deck, so short of Sol Ring or Mana Crypt, you'll be playing your cards at a curve of a land drop a turn.
Playing out Zur on turn 4 is risky. Jamming him is always a case of "I hope my opponents don't kill him", but more often than not you just have to go for it. The best cards to have early game for this are Mother of Runes, Kira, Great Glass-Spinner, Spellskite or Selfless Spirit to offer protection. If you do have a counter spell, then waiting for the turn 5 or 6 play is definitely worth considering.
If you get to attack with Zur, the first target should always be Vanishing. Trust me once this is in effect, you'll have Zur for the rest of the game, and this is hard to beat as it offers so much value.
You do get games, where you fail to draw a Rebel for a while so you can spend an amount of time using Zur to control the board, with the likes of Grasp of Fate, Stony Silence, Detention Sphere.
However if you do have a Rebel on the board, and the board is not too out of control, then fetch Arcane Adaptation and let the games begin!
Getting Training Grounds on subsequent turn really helps with freeing up your mana, tapping your Rebels for less.
Know your Toolbox
The creatures in the deck are designed to deal with the main power plays your opponents are doing. As mentioned, 5/9 of the Rebels get 3 CMC or less, so expect your intial setup for this range of CMC creatures.
If you do get a turn off to fetch another Rebel, then you'll want to get Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero. Having two tutoring Rebels will give you the flexibility to handle more situations.
One thing to be aware of is the multiple options at your disposal, as sometimes you'll actually have the toolbox creature in your hand at the time of spells being cast, which means your best option is not availble.
We have 5 creatures that can counter spells, these are of course your most versatile as far as dealing with anything your opponents are doing.
Getting Glen Elendra Archmage and/or Voidmage Prodigy is your best line of defense. It must be noted that with Voidmage Prodigy, you can sacrifice Zur in a pinch if you feel you need to keep the onboard counterspell, I have done this before. Aven Mindcensor, Venser, Shaper Savant, Spellseeker are further Wizards.
There are a number of creatures that can protect your board. Kira, Great Glass-Spinner is the best for stopping spot removal on your creatures. Spellskite offers all your permanents protection, but be careful as this does get shut off by your own Stony Silence.
Opponent plays spot removal on non-creature permanent. You can fetch Flickerwisp to phase out your permanent. Spellskite can be used to redirect target. You can get Leonin Relic-Warder if its an artifact or enchantment and remove it yourself, looking to get the Leonin Relic-Warder killed at a later stage. Restoration Specialist can be used to get an enchantment/artifact back.
Opponent plays a destroy all creatures. You can get Selfless Spirit. (see the exile example of how to deal if you have this in hand)
Opponent plays an exile all creatures. Vanishing helps with saving Zur. You really want to save at least one Rebel, so you can get Flickerwisp, Fiend Hunter or Stonecloaker to remove the Rebel, and it will return after everything else is removed.
Opponent plays a big draw card. You can get Spirit of the Labyrinth.
Opponent plays spot removal on creature permanent. Flickerwisp, Selfless Spirit, Spellskite, Stonecloaker are all options.
Opponent plays an all permanents board wipe. Chances are you'll need use a countering effect for this, but you can navigate around it if this is not available to you. You'll want a Rebel plus Arcane Adaptation post wipe, so phase out Zur with Vanishing, then Flickerwisp or Leonin Relic-Warder the Arcane Adaptation. On your turn you can get Necromancy with Zur to get a Rebel back. This will enable you to setup again. I've actually used this line even when countering is available to me, because it puts you so far ahead of everybody else once the board has been cleared.
Removing opponents creature. Gilded Drake, Fiend Hunter, Deputy of Detention, Necrotic Sliver. In a desperate situation you can use Flickerwisp to nullify for a turn.
Removing opponents non-creature permanents. Necrotic Sliver, Deputy of Detention, Leonin Relic-Warder, Venser, Shaper Savant.
Removing a card from graveyard. You can get Stonecloaker, bouncing himself to ensure further graveyard recursion can be disrupted.
Mass creature removal. You can get Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite and/or Godhead of Awe. You will need Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero to get the 7/6 CMC, but important for opponents going wide strategies, like tokens or elves.
Opponent comboing with a many spell in a turn win. Either Eidolon of Rhetoric or Spirit of the Labyrinth. You can also get these creatures with Zurs ability as the are both enchantments.
Opponent has Voltron untargettable/unblockable Commander - Zur can get Darksteel Mutation. Zur or Rebels can also get Bound in Silence. Note putting these into play via the search abilities circumnavigate targetting.
How do you win?
This deck plays out to literally stop whatever your opponents are doing mid-late game, and your troupes with the help of Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite is enough to finish the game.
Weaknesses of the deck?
As stated, expect to be very hated on. You're are going to be attacked a lot during the course of your setup. Low life total are the norm for you. It turns out that fair creature decks, really do just beat you down, as your creatures are not designed to be good blockers.
Ghostly Prison and Propaganda might actually be early targets from Zur if you find yourself playing against fair creature decks. Your creature toolbox is really only designed to stop combo creatures, rather than the hordes.
What if Zur get removed before you can get Vanishing? Sometimes you'll just never get the opportunity to get him out again. Expect some games where this happens, and you just have to play the game out with natural draws. I have won a game with never been able to attack with Zur. I played out Conspiracy naturally with Rebels on the board. There is Vamperic Tutor, Enlightened Tutor and Demonic Tutor to possibly get AA or a Rebel without Zur ability.
Most games I win I'll be on single digit life total. But I personally love that sort of challenge, not for the weak of heart.
Be careful with Conspiracy. Arcane Adaptation and this card are different. Conspiracy will remove the creatures normal types, where as Arcane Adaptation still keeps them, so Necrotic Sliver and Voidmage Prodigy will no longer be valid.
1 Zur the Enchanter
The Rebels (9)
1 Amrou Scout
1 Ramosian Sergeant
1 Defiant Falcon
1 Ramosian Lieutenant
1 Blightspeaker
1 Defiant Vanguard
1 Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero
1 Ramosian Captain
1 Ramosian Commander
Creatures Countering Spells (5)
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Voidmage Prodigy
1 Spellseeker
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Spell Queller
Creature Protection (6)
1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Mother of Runes
1 Spellskite
1 Stonecloaker
1 Flickerwisp (any permanent)
Creature Removal (8)
1 Gilded Drake
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Fiend Hunter
1 Deputy of Detention
1 Necrotic Sliver
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Godhead of Awe
Creature Hate-Bears (2)
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
Creature Graveyard Retrieval
1 Restoration Specialist
1 Sun Titan
1 Recruiter of the Guard
Enchantments (14)
1 Arcane Adaptation
1 Conspiracy
1 Vanishing
1 Training Grounds
1 Land Tax
1 Greater Auramancy
1 Necromancy
1 Stony Silence
1 Grasp of Fate
1 Detention Sphere
1 Darksteel Mutation
1 Bound in Silence
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Propaganda
1 Solemnity
1 Phyrexian Unlife
Artifacts (5)
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Scroll Rack
1 Spellskite (mentioned above)
Instants (11)
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Swan Song
1 Arcane Denial
1 Mana Drain
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Disdainful Stroke
1 Muddle the Mixture
1 Force of Will
1 Pact of Negation
1 Brainstorm
1 Demonic Tutor
Lands (35)
1 Fetid Heath
1 Fetid Pools
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Flooded Strand
1 Arid Mesa
1 Command Tower
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Irrigated Farmland
1 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Mystic Gate
1 Polluted Delta
1 Prairie Stream
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Scrubland
4 Snow-Covered Island
4 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Sunken Hollow
1 Sunken Ruins
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Watery Grave
1 Windswept Heath
1 Godless Shrine
1 Mistveil Plains
1 Drowned Catacomb
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
One card I could suggest is Mistveil Plains, it'll let you recycle cards which you can then tutor back up with Zur or your Rebels.
Mid-Tier:
Filthy Casual: WUBRG Jodah WUBRG WUBRG Fatties WUBRG
I will test your deck tonight on Cocktrice tonight. :3
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
Removed Silumgar Sorcerer, Lieutenant Kirtar, Jace's Archivist, Notion Thief
Added Flickerwisp, Banisher Preist, Mana Drain, Ghostly Prison
Forget to remove the Jace's Archivist, Notion Thief from list and the added Ghostly Prison.
After playing some more games I didn't like Jace's Archivist as single card, its just not good on its own in this deck, so removed the secondary win-condition all together. This might be a mistake, but needing to get 2 creatures is harder than obviously just getting the one. I would like to have a secondary win-con in the deck, so if anybody can come up with suggestions for either a 2 card creature combo where the CMC of each is 3 or less. But I really want the creatures to be functional on their own (greedy I know, but I'm sure its out there).
Or a creature and <= 3 CMC Enchantment that combos. Combos don't necessarily need to be instant wins, but just something that going to give you inevitability.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Thankee. I'm sure different people would harbor different type of tools, some more combo oriented and some less so. I tested the deck and learned the hard lesson of getting AA without at least a counterspell in hand.
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
Interestingly I've found that once I have my Zur + Rebel setup, I actually never want to cast a card from my hand the rest of the game. In fact I never want to draw a card for the rest of the game, except lands for hitting land drops. Contamination does shut off Vanishing, and a few hard counter instants, but in theory because I get to select the situation for fetching Contamination, as nasty of a card as it is, I've put it into the deck because it works perfectly. So I've actually taken out Rhystic Study and put in Land Tax instead. I changed my land base to have 6 more basics.
I played a lot of games yesterday, and ran against a bunch of different deck types, and it was a good lesson in knowing what more "Toolbox" was needed for various situations. So I've made quite a few changes.
Added:
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite - needed something I could fetch to stop the go wide strategies, was just getting overwhelmed sometimes with small hordes
Silent Arbiter - Although a nonbo with Steward of Solidarity, I can remove this creature with Contamination/Detention Sphere, when ready
Eidolon of Rhetoric - For combo decks that look to play lots of cards to basically win in a single turn. Countering one spell noramlly not good enough in these strategies. Spirit of the Labyrinth can also probably stop these to an extent, but having this is key
Contamination - Basically never needing to cast a card from hand for rest of game when have Zur + Rebel
Lightning Greaves - Removed Null Rod and Energy Flux, so this card got better
Land Tax - Only wanting to draw lands when setup
Righteous Aura - Didn't have an answer for Voltron Commanders that I couldn't target
3 x Islands, 3 x Plains - Mainly for Land Tax
Mistveil Plains
Removed:
Rhystic Study - Drawing in this deck is actually bad. Its actually preferable if you never draw a card for the entire game once you have Zur + Rebel
Energy Flux - I found that just being able to fetch Stony Silence is enough to stop the seriously focused artifact strategies
Null Rod
Search for Azcanta - I love this this card but not necessary to the overall theme
Aura of Silence - Grasp of Fate and Detention Sphere will have to be good enough to get rid of artifact/enchantments that are hosing me
Toxic Deluge - Just trying to keep all the "answers" in the deck to creatures and enchantments
Advarkar Wastes, Drowned Catacomb, Nimbus Maze, City of Brass, Glacial Fortress, Mana Confluence, Underground River, Winding Canyons- Playing basics instead, mainly for Land Tax
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
I took out Contamination, because playing more casual playgroups and never had the heart to tutor for it.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
That said I took out:
Intruder Alarm
Steward of Solidarity
Bloodline Keeper
Merieke Ri Berit
Righteous Aura
Baleful Strix
And put in:
Resolute Archangel
Propaganda
Sun Titan
Bound in Silence
Darksteel Mutation
Imprisoned in the Moon
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
I think I would like to go more hate bear with it. Instant fetch out a leonin arbiter seems fun and cruel. Harder, but fetching a Ob Nixilis, Unshackled at instant speed? Yes please.
Modern
URGTemur ScapeshiftGRU
EDH
WGKarametra EnchantressGW
UBGSidisi, Brood Tyrant ReanimatorGBU
UBRKess DoomsdayRBU
WBGGhave TokensGBW
WUBZur RebelsBUW
WUBErtai CursesBUW
WRFiresong and Sunspeaker Spell SlingerRW
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
I've collected nearly all the cards for this deck at this point, though I wanted to focus on a non-infinite controlling build to begin with. Thus I really like where your list is going. I will compare it to my initial list, probably adapt that list, and then post my adaptation (pun definitly intended) later after I actually had the time to do so.
In the mean time, what do you think of:
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
Look forward to your list
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
1 Zur, the Enchanter
1 Arcane Adaptation
1 Conspiracy
1 Training Grounds
1 Copy Enchantment
1 Ashnod's Altar
1 Martyr's Cause
1 Faces of the Past
1 Mistmeadow Witch
Search Rebels:
1 Search Rebels
1 Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero
1 Amrou Scout
1 Blightspeaker
1 Defiant Falcon
1 Ramosian Lieutenant
1 Ramosian Captain
1 Defiant Vanguard
1 Ramosian Commander
1 Ramosian Revivalist
Resilience:
1 Pull from Eternity
1 Hanna, Ship's Navigator
1 Sun Titan
1 Monk Idealist
1 Greater Auramancy
1 Phyrexian Reclamation
1 Skull of Orm
1 Karmic Justice
1 Kaho, Minamo Historian
Removal
1 Merieke Ri Berit
1 Fiend Hunter
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Silumgar Sorcerer
1 Spell Queller
1 Voidmage Prodigy
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Tidehollow Sculler
1 Necrotic Sliver
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Mother of Runes
1 Kira, Great Glass Spinner
1 Aegis Angel
1 Mirror Entity
1 Trinket Mage
1 Trophy Mage
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Aven Riftwatcher
1 Flickerwisp
1 Portal Mage
1 Aegis of the Gods
1 Azorius Guildmage
Draw / Tutor:
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Rhystic Study
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Land Tax
Zur Targets:
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Detention Sphere
1 Bound in Silence
1 Aura of Silence
1 Darksteel Mutation
1 Vanishing
1 Propaganda
1 Steel of the Godhead
Other:
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Elixir of Immortality
1 Arcane Lighthouse
1 Command Tower
1 Arcane Sanctum
1 Exotic Orchard
1 Reflecting Pool
1 High Market
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Flooded Strand
1 Mystic Gate
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Watery Grave
1 Polluted Delta
1 Sunken Ruins
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Godless Shrine
1 Marsh Flats
1 Fetid Heath
1 Isolated Chapel
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Vault of Whispers
1 Ancient Den
The primary focus of this deck as I said is reusing ETB abilities on Oblivion Ring style creatures, saccing them in response to their own ETB trigger thus making sure that whatever they exiled will never come back. Ashnod's Altar. I feel this gives this deck a lot of it's power though in comparison with your list, I might have gone too all in on it making this too much of a glass cannon. I definitly want to keep this engine in the deck, but the eventual version will need to be able to hold it's own if this is disrupted. If you have Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero[c/], Training Grounds, Arcane Adaptation and Ashnod's Altar then you can reuse any ETB ability on any of your creatures with cmc 3 or less for 2: Sac it to the altar for 2. Spend 1 on Sivvi's last ability to put the creature on the bottom of your library then spend the other 1 to have Sivvi put it back int play. While you initially ran Intruder Alarm, I opted to go with Faces of the Past instead (as I feel this will do less for my opponents) to really kick this setup into overdrive to amass enough advantage to close out the game with it. This is the reason I included Trophy Mage: it finds Ashnod's Altar. The deck can gain infinite life.
As for turning it into a more general contol deck, I think I ought to go with the full hatebears package. At first I was afraid it would draw to much hate my way but I think slowing down my opponents down might be more important.
For returning stuff: I actually included Pull from Eternity + Kaho, Minamo Historian to go find it, because a lot of the removal I face in my meta is exile, and having Arcane Adaptation, Training Grounds and/or Conspiracy exiled really bites. This will allow the deck to recover even from that. Maybe this is too overkill protection wise as it eats two slots and Greater Auramancy might protect enough already. Phyrexian Reclamation can be like a backup for Sivvi. After saccing a creature, just return it to hand and recast it. It's a bit more mana intensive but it keeps the basic engine going. I'm running Hanna, Ship's Navigator instead of Restoration Specialist... not sure which is better. I alos have Skull of Orm in there, that's a bit costly to use. I think I would prefer running the Restoration Specialist in it's place besides Hanna.
For finishers, I initially went with Aegis angel (double duty to protect Arcane Adaptation) and Mirror Entity. I actually like the newer combination of Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite+Godhead of Awe as it allows you to control more opponents at the same time. Mirror Entity is actually a really nice addition as you can overwrite the p/t settings of the godhead for a turn. So I think my finisher package would be Elesh Norn, Godhead and Mirror Entity. Not sure if there's still room for the Angel at that point as for purely a protection card 6 mana is a bit steep but the fact it synergizes on two different levels might make it worthwhile nevertheless.
This deck has no ramp outside of Land Tax. I did include Trinket Mage, mostly to find Elixir of Immortality. Being able to repeatedly activate the Elixir is a sort of backup for Sivvi's second ability: the repeated lifegain is just gravy. I included three artifacts in the lands so it can find those too. How I did not include Sol Ring is beyond me: it should obviously be in. If the eventual deck can consistently gain enough / infinite life then Mana Crypt might be good too.
As I play mostly multiplayer, Portal Mage and Merieke ri Berit seem really good here to be able to mess with combat after attackers have been declared: just send the ugly stuff somewhere else or borrow a blocker. Merieke also offers a way to deal with resilient creatures besides exiling.
Aegis of the Gods is there mostly to prevent graveyard exiling. Most graveyard exiling effects target the opponent you want to do it too, this is the tech to preven that from happening (Point that Bojuka Bog elsewhere please).
Last but not least, both Mistmeadow Witch and Azorius Guildmage have really powerfull activated abilities. Training Grounds makes these really affordable. There's always something usefull you can use these on: the witch can blink your own creatures in response to their etb getting you another trigger and never returning the thing exiled with the first one. It can make a creature summoning sick again so it can't attack you. You can go diplomatic with it by giving others triggers in exchange for favors. It's just an amazing card. The guildmage the same way. Tapping a creature is not that exciting (even though really usefull) but having Stifle as an activated ability available on hand is so powerful, people will really have to play around you having this. Countering a fetch land's ability is one thing, but there are so many things you can counter with this it's not even funny (on he other side of the table that is).
Tidehollow Sculler is another card I think really deserves to be in the deck to allow you to attack cards in hand directly. Since this deck can get in in play on instant speed, this can be sweet tech to exile whatever an opponent who is in trouble just spend his tutor on during his draw step.
As I'm writing this: would this deck not benefit hugely from a Panharmonicon?
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
The Ashnods Altar engine idea is cool, I didn't think of that interaction. You have a lot more graveyard interaction, so I'd take out the Elixir of Immortality as I think you're going to want as much of your GY being a resource throughout the game.
As you've already pointed out, Skull of Orm is too mana intensive. Monk Idealist is your key card here. Maybe run Auramancer as well?
One thing you'll find is that your creature suite basically are not good for blocking, so you end up getting bashed down to low life points, well or dead. The setup is a mid/late game type thing, so you'll be on the back foot most of the game.
I came up against a Zur mirror the other day and they were running Phyrexian Unlife + Solemnity, for a combo that means that they can't die due to "damage". Its kind of tempting to run this over life gain, as both these cards are not dead on their own, Phyrexian Unlife is kind of like gain 10 life, and Solemnity nulls a lot of deck archtypes.
Aegis of the Gods is a good call, I really have had situations where I wanted to have this at my disposal. This card is more important in your deck, because GY is a major resource.
I had Merieke Ri Berit in my deck, when I had Intruder Alarm as well, as a backup win-con, but not sure if its good enough without recurring its ability? I don't think the Faces of the Past really works with it. I'd probably take it out over an ETB creature of some sort.
I do think you're too light on ETB creatures for the blink theme in general, so much of the deck is the Rebels and other non-ETB creatures, that I'd look to get at least 3 more into the deck somehow. I'd look at Venser, Shaper Savant, Gilded Drake, Recruiter of the Guard.
For this reason I wouldn't play Panharmonicon, but I would play Brago, King Eternal. You could also look at Eldrazi Displacer, but you'd need to have a mana base that runs all the "Pain" lands like Underground River, etc, along with Sol Ring and Mana Crypt.
Grasp of Fate is a super star, even if you can't do the exile trick, the ability to remove the 3 most important cards for each opponent is a must.
Maybe you should run Phyrexian Altar as well? Obviously not nearly as good, but still allows for recursion at a higher mana rate, as a backup.
The thing when I look at your deck and how my games go, is that your always going to be cramped on mana, big time. Interestingly when I have Zur + Rebel + Arcane Adaption, I basically never want to draw another card for the entire game, only mana and instant speed counterspells. But mana is still always tied up without ever casting another spell. Your deck will be the same, but even more focus on graveyard recursion requiring even more mana.
It is possible that you need some artifact mana to keep up with you mana needs, like the Signets. I have the same problem, but I have Stony Silence in the deck, so try to punish others that also have this idea, and slow the game down.
I really like the Trinket Mage and Trophy Mage, there is an argument for a few more 3 CMC artifacts, like Chromatic Lantern and Coalition Relic so that a blink engine can fuel your mana needs more? Funnily enough Skullclamp, would allow you to draw lots of cards, but its a weird deck type where card draw is not really good.
Esper colors obviously suffer from little land accelerates, but if you do end up with a deck that does go for more draws then I would recommend Walking Atlas. Kind of a "tech card" for me in blue/white decks. Goes nice with Land Tax, and even Trinket Mage blinking to get your artifact lands. Only reason I don't have it in my deck is because I'm not drawing much and Stony Silence.
My only other words of advice, is that any toolbox deck takes at least a handful of games, before you get comfortable with how you can use all your tools. There are so many options to you that making the correct lines of play will not be easy, and your first games will have loads of mistakes, so don't be discouraged by some bad beats.
Anyway I think the Ashnods Altar/Lin Sivvi/Aracne Adaption engine is a sweet one, so its just going to be a case of how you get there without dying to creature bashes mainly.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Modern
URGTemur ScapeshiftGRU
EDH
WGKarametra EnchantressGW
UBGSidisi, Brood Tyrant ReanimatorGBU
UBRKess DoomsdayRBU
WBGGhave TokensGBW
WUBZur RebelsBUW
WUBErtai CursesBUW
WRFiresong and Sunspeaker Spell SlingerRW
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
The combo is nice because, especially in group games of 4 to 6 players, combo wins are useful. And with one enchantment out, and pretty much any two rebels, you can win out of nowhere in the combat step. But once people learned I had that combo, I because a huge target. Everyone already dislikes this deck because it can answer ANYTHING at instant speed so the combo makes the deck bigger target. I want to try replacing Viscera Seer with Trophy Mage and running an Ashnod's Altar (because Trophy Mage finds more things than just this combo, and scrying doesn't really do anything for this deck), but haven't gotten around to it yet.
In other news, a friend of mine loves my version of the deck and may be making his own soon. Thanks for sharing this brew, it is the most fun with EDH I've had in awhile!
Modern
URGTemur ScapeshiftGRU
EDH
WGKarametra EnchantressGW
UBGSidisi, Brood Tyrant ReanimatorGBU
UBRKess DoomsdayRBU
WBGGhave TokensGBW
WUBZur RebelsBUW
WUBErtai CursesBUW
WRFiresong and Sunspeaker Spell SlingerRW
You could run Fanatical Devotion and/or Martyr's Cause as sacrifice outlet for your combo, obviously with Zur being able to fetch them.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
What do you think of Angelic Renewal and Gift of Immortality, as addition protection and re-trigger of creatures?
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
I have tried Phyrexian Reclamation as a means to get multiple uses out of creatures, but I found it underwhelming, life loss, plus recasting was too much. But I like the look of Angelic Renewal, and I have been unimpressed with Bound in Silence, so I'm going to do the swap and see how goes. Gift of Immortality is obviously a good card, but with Zur, Vanishing is the way to go for protection, so I think taking the time/turn for Gift is a bit narrow considering what creatures are really good for it and they can still can be Swords or Pathed.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Angelic Renewal has the benefit of not targeting, so it could be put down before important creature comes into play. Sun Titan will retrieve it when you need it back.
How frequently do you find Godhead of Awe useful? It's great with Elesh Norn, but when I tested the deck I usually get Norn and at times forget about Godhead all together.
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs