Thanks for the reply and all the good content. I never see myself spending this kind of money on vampires any time soon, it is nice to see what a budgetless deck can do, and how different it looks.
On a budget, the flow of games is quite dofferent, and I personally value my vampires differently.
In your case, fetch lands into dual lands and expensive fast mana rocks and one mana fast tutors into necropotence allow you to throw out a pile of one drops and keep a full hand... all in the first 3 or 4 turns.
On my budget and my playgroup, we are buying mana confluence amd city of brass to reduce how many lands come into play tapped. Without Purphoros, God of the Forge or the ability to reliably hit Malakir Bloodwitxh whenever I want, a pile of 1 drops isn't going to give me nearly the value as it does in your build. Nevertheless, I can clearly understand why, after your reply and battle report(s), that they are what you prefer.
"Whatever style you wish to play, be it fast and frenzied or slow and tactical, the surest way to defeat your opponent consistently is by dominating him or her in the war of card advantage." - Brian Wiseman, April 1996
Okay I have to weigh in here: Possibility Storm why? I don't care that you get the extra cast trigger; if that really mattered then you would be better off playing Anointed Procession in every single possible way imaginable on down to crazy synergy with Purphoros, God of the Forge to everything else in the deck. But you don't like Anointed Procession so there's gotta be something more to it for you.
The chaos it sows?? No. This could backfire in so many ways imaginable and I don't like the unpredictable all that much. Everyone knows Wheel of Fortune is an amazing card because of it's card advantage vs. cost ratio plus what it does to wreck your opponent's hands in multiplayer.
I feel the deck would benefit more from Sensei's Divining Top. If you add Imperial Seal (and I believe you know that you should) not only does it help you draw into something immediately important with it but it has amazing synergy with my best friend, Dark Confidant.
Possibility Storm - its really similar to Anointed Procession but with a disruption effect too. I get your issue with the card though and I myself have been questioning it since having drawn it in the previous game highlight. Its an interesting card and I wanted to see how it went but I think I do agree with you in the end that it questions when it is that I would spend the time to cast it and its mostly if I am having a hard time / I don't have the kind of draw I need to play. It isn't a card that digs me out of a problem I am already having so I cant play it after I am having an issue but before I am having an issue I also don't want to play it because of how much mana it costs and the fact that its not doing what I want to be doing for the most part.
Thanks for the reply and all the good content. I never see myself spending this kind of money on vampires any time soon, it is nice to see what a budgetless deck can do, and how different it looks.
On a budget, the flow of games is quite dofferent, and I personally value my vampires differently.
In your case, fetch lands into dual lands and expensive fast mana rocks and one mana fast tutors into necropotence allow you to throw out a pile of one drops and keep a full hand... all in the first 3 or 4 turns.
On my budget and my playgroup, we are buying mana confluence amd city of brass to reduce how many lands come into play tapped. Without Purphoros, God of the Forge or the ability to reliably hit Malakir Bloodwitxh whenever I want, a pile of 1 drops isn't going to give me nearly the value as it does in your build. Nevertheless, I can clearly understand why, after your reply and battle report(s), that they are what you prefer.
The cost of a deck is kind of a perspective kind of a question. I ran it through deckbuilder (link here) for kicks which honestly their prices are on the low end of things usually but it quoted me $1,500 for the deck. I ran through the landbase I have in the deckstats and it accounted for over $800 worth of the cost of the deck so it means that the non landbase portion of the deck I am looking at is down to $700 and in that I have Mox Diamond, Mana Crypt, Wheel of Fortune, Demonic Tutor, and Vampiric Tutor making up $370 ish of that remaining $700 meaning the other 61 cards in the deck is only like $300 for the deck. I happened to have already owned essentially all of the lands and those 5 cards so while all of this might sound expensive essentially all of the expensive parts of this deck I have owned for years and I probably payed less than half of what they cost now. Demonic / Vampiric / Wheel have all very recently pushed up in price and all of the copies I own were all in the $10-15 price when I got them and I have owned a full set of ABU lands for a while now.
I guess what I am saying is that price is kind of a subjective question. Lots of the price tag in this deck comes from long term staples and those that are not are very cheap niche things for this build. I used to have a Jenara, Asura of War deck together that was well over $3,000s so a 3 color deck coming in at $1,500 where over half of that is a landbase I have owned for years doesn't seem all that expensive to me. For what its worth I do think you can take the core of what I am doing and take out the fast mana and the expensive landbase and I do think you are still left with the same deck that probably performs a turn or so slower due to the landbase and it probably only runs $600 which for a three color deck is quite good. If you cheapen the landbase its really going to push you a turn or two back but I think a lot of these concepts would still work. Most of the expensive cards in the deck are cards that enable the deck. I think the important part is to land your card draw and this concept really does work. Some of these tutors are kind of spendy now but these have been very recent price spikes on cards that have been amazing since these cards were created far before this format. I do feel bad for those who don't have their copies of these cards but I have essentially had a 2-4 set of most of these tutors for a good portion of time now.
Sorry for that long posted reply but I guess what I wanted to say is that most of the money in this deck is to make it function a little faster and smoother. I think you can take a very big portion of the cost out and just have the deck function a turn or two slower while still preserving essentially the same cards. The important concept of this deck is to have unfair refill / draw effects that enable running lots of cheap drops to function.
Ok, I have a few changes I want to try out. I have been giving some thought to a few cards and I want to make a few changes after giving these cards some thought.
DECK CHANGES:
Possibility Storm -> Imperial Seal I think that theCreecH is right. I love the concept and idea behind Possibility Storm but if my deck is doing well its never the card I want to spend my mana on. I broke down and spent the money on Imperial Seal given that its current price for the judge promo is actually very conservative given what its price used to be. I understand that this price is still quite high for some but I have actually not spent much money on this deck at all so I don't mind given how darn cheap the vamps were to obtain for this build. More and more of late having tutors for these ridiculously broken card draw outlets has proven to be strong for me.
Null Profusion -> Austere Command I love the concept and idea behind Null Profusion and its a card I want to like but when it comes to it as card draw I essentially need good card draw to get me to the point where I can cast it. I run a low curve deck and honestly its been challenging to cast as far as card draw goes and then its slow to spin up given I need to do things after playing it to make anything happen. It has been very challenging for me and I just didn't want to give up on it because the effect really should work well in here but given the time to get it in play and then the time to spin it up its just not been the card draw I want. I have been trying to work Austere Command in here for a very long time and I think this is a good opportunity to slot it in and see what it can do for me. I really love the big mana creature sweep option it gives me and more importantly that surgical sweep of artifacts or enchantments as needed really felt like something I needed access to. I have a good number of tutors in here as well for the draw so I think having at least access to one sweeper like this does open the list up a bit in a good way.
For those of you on a budget I apologize as adding more expensive tutors is not really all that friendly of me but my goal is in the end to try to make the best deck I can under my own restrictions (I don't play combo). I do think these two changes will be positive for me in my list and this change further drops the mana cost of this deck as well. Austere Command is a card I have been trying to figure out how to work in for a good long time so I am glad I found a spot for it but I feel a little bittersweet cutting draw for it but the fact that I am also adding another tutor to the deck means I probably have just as much access to draw.
As far as money goes, I do not live in the USA. I teach English as a second language in Peru. For some perspective, my 2 bedroom 2 bathroom apartment is 1,400 soles, or about $410 a month. To say that a deck is about $1,500 or about 4 months rent is cheap is relative to your perspective.
Honestly, I own single copies of fetch lands, mana crypt, fast tutors and so forth thanks to eternal masters... which are mostly being used in my Breya artifact combo deck.
I could probaly build about 70% of this deck, minus some of the vampires and the red gods. I am unlikely ever to own some of the old cards, as shipping costs to peru is a joke along with our customs office. The best hope is arranging when magic players go to the states to bring stuff back... so it had better be worth it.
When you say a lower budget "only pushes you a turn or two back," that is an understatement if there ever was one. Turn one fetch land into a dual land into a fast tutor, turn 2 mana crypt and god of the forge, then turn 3 a pile of one drops to dish out tons of damage if MUCH different than playing Scry temples, signets, ambition's cost and diabolic tutor. It is more than just one or two turns... more like a turn 6 win is looking like turn 9 or 10 at best?
Please do not misunderstand me. I love what I see here and enjoy imagining and seeing what this can do. I applaud your efforts. I am just giving some perspective.
What interests me the most is the idea of churning out lots of vampires and giving them quality evasion like menace, then pumping the swarm after blockers are declared with mirror entity.
My current version of the deck has done its best on the budget I am working with. I recently added pain lands and replaced the bad etb tapped lands with scry temples. I added the likes of city of brass, mana confluence and unclaimed territory to color production. The red and white hideaway lands are quite interesting and came in last year's commander decks. They work perfect when you are going wode with tokens. It is easy to trigger either of them. Right now I am just focused on fixing, card draw, threats, removal, and anthem/evasion/protection effects for my army. Casting a rootborn defense or boros charm into a board wipe feels so good.
If my group gets really competitive, I might move cards over from breya and even print some place holder proxies and copy your list until I can get the missing cards. That is why the internet is so great.
I love these forums, if for nothing else, for the quality of the people here. This is the best community in magic and you guys are why.
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P.S. Now compare that to Inalla, which my wife owns. That deck is only missing $3 Ashnod's Altar as a two card combo with her commander and our vampire wizard. She can go turn 2 signet, turn three cast a diabolic tutor or do wizard cycling with that common from future sight to find what she needs and she can go off on turn 5 on a budget of under $10... compared to your "$300" cards which might do something by turn 8?
That is some perspective as well.
Dragons can change to Scion and wreck our day with a fetched up a $3 Nicol Bolas from Tine Spiral before we get to turn 6 or 7. Slow8ng down a few turns changes the whole game, and is why your friends scooped. It wasn't that they coukdn't do anything... it was that they coukdn't do anything that quickly.
"Whatever style you wish to play, be it fast and frenzied or slow and tactical, the surest way to defeat your opponent consistently is by dominating him or her in the war of card advantage." - Brian Wiseman, April 1996
As far as money goes, I do not live in the USA. I teach English as a second language in Peru. For some perspective, my 2 bedroom 2 bathroom apartment is 1,400 soles, or about $410 a month. To say that a deck is about $1,500 or about 4 months rent is cheap is relative to your perspective.
Honestly, I own single copies of fetch lands, mana crypt, fast tutors and so forth thanks to eternal masters... which are mostly being used in my Breya artifact combo deck.
I could probaly build about 70% of this deck, minus some of the vampires and the red gods. I am unlikely ever to own some of the old cards, as shipping costs to peru is a joke along with our customs office. The best hope is arranging when magic players go to the states to bring stuff back... so it had better be worth it.
When you say a lower budget "only pushes you a turn or two back," that is an understatement if there ever was one. Turn one fetch land into a dual land into a fast tutor, turn 2 mana crypt and god of the forge, then turn 3 a pile of one drops to dish out tons of damage if MUCH different than playing Scry temples, signets, ambition's cost and diabolic tutor. It is more than just one or two turns... more like a turn 6 win is looking like turn 9 or 10 at best?
Please do not misunderstand me. I love what I see here and enjoy imagining and seeing what this can do. I applaud your efforts. I am just giving some perspective.
What interests me the most is the idea of churning out lots of vampires and giving them quality evasion like menace, then pumping the swarm after blockers are declared with mirror entity.
My current version of the deck has done its best on the budget I am working with. I recently added pain lands and replaced the bad etb tapped lands with scry temples. I added the likes of city of brass, mana confluence and unclaimed territory to color production. The red and white hideaway lands are quite interesting and came in last year's commander decks. They work perfect when you are going wode with tokens. It is easy to trigger either of them. Right now I am just focused on fixing, card draw, threats, removal, and anthem/evasion/protection effects for my army. Casting a rootborn defense or boros charm into a board wipe feels so good.
If my group gets really competitive, I might move cards over from breya and even print some place holder proxies and copy your list until I can get the missing cards. That is why the internet is so great.
I love these forums, if for nothing else, for the quality of the people here. This is the best community in magic and you guys are why.
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P.S. Now compare that to Inalla, which my wife owns. That deck is only missing $3 Ashnod's Altar as a two card combo with her commander and our vampire wizard. She can go turn 2 signet, turn three cast a diabolic tutor or do wizard cycling with that common from future sight to find what she needs and she can go off on turn 5 on a budget of under $10... compared to your "$300" cards which might do something by turn 8?
That is some perspective as well.
Dragons can change to Scion and wreck our day with a fetched up a $3 Nicol Bolas from Tine Spiral before we get to turn 6 or 7. Slow8ng down a few turns changes the whole game, and is why your friends scooped. It wasn't that they coukdn't do anything... it was that they coukdn't do anything that quickly.
Sorry I didn't intend to demean anyone else's situation. I am married with no children while both of us work so I am in a place right now where I can afford to spend money on my hobby. I have been playing commander since 2010 and with that I have put some investment into a lot of staples to just be able to field a certain number of decks at a time. I do also understand that adding a bunch of tap lands into the deck would slow it down but some like pain lands are actually not bad as the life lost to them is not that bad for an aggro deck. Being that this deck does have a fast focus to it I have put a lot of emphasis in making the landbase efficient and fast.
The game I highlighted earlier was literally one of the most ideal setups I have had so I guess I would say its not what I would call a "normal" game with this deck. Most of my games are not that fast and do involve more instances of being answered and swept and playing towards recovery plans.
I also really appreciate all those who read and post here. Sometimes I am slow to make changes but I do take a lot of the feedback to heart and sometimes someone feeling something looks off at least gets me to thinking about a card. I am not always right by any means but sometimes pointing out and questioning a card inclusion or making a suggestion gets me thinking on a card and sometimes that ultimately leads to a change.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Again, I love the list. I have been playing commander since 2007 and have a lot of these non-vampire cards too from my years of experience and the help of Eternal Masters. However, they are in other decks like Mizzix spellslinger combo and Breya Artifact combo. I don't like carrying a paper list and swapping cards all the time and misplacing where one expensive card or another has made its way.
I love buying the commander pre-cons and making budget improvements so that the decks feel different and unique.
2011 Kaalia lets me play with crazy angels, demons, and dragons... then clean up with mass land destruction and the attack step.
2013 Roon allows me to build a flicker deck.
2013 Oloro allows me to have a classic Esper control build. Mystical teachings into Teferi and Dralnu to reuse my graveyard filled with counter spells and card draw, and with with the 50 life kitty or some other non-combat route to victory.
2014 Mono Black Ghoulcaller Gisa good stuff. Dark Depths, Army of the Damned, and giant Drain Life/Consume Spirit spells to kill players.
2015 Mizzix spell combos. Enter the infinite into lab man. Firemind's Foresight into a Reiterate + Red Ritual combo. Mystic Retrival + Runic Repetition + Time Magic and winning with Young Pyromancer or Guttersnipe kinds of cards. So many paths to a spellslinger win, and nothing is very expensive.
2015 Plunder the Graves sacrifice for value drck.
2016 Breya artifact combos with Ashnod's Altar, Krank Clan, Helm of obedience, eldrazi displacer, etc. Goblin Welder some high casting cost artifacts for value. That kind of thing.
2016 Guardians of Meletis grouo hug control with other funny budget combos like landfall + the blue retreat and walking atlas.
2017 Edgar Markov has been a really fun way to go wode AND go tall with anthem effects. We can churn out an army quickly and make them large and evasive in no time. Curving into Door of Destanies one game had me swinging with a 7/8 Blood Artist. This deck can do a lot on a budget.
I like your decks my friend. No hard feelings. Just different perspectives.
"Whatever style you wish to play, be it fast and frenzied or slow and tactical, the surest way to defeat your opponent consistently is by dominating him or her in the war of card advantage." - Brian Wiseman, April 1996
I am waiting for some cards in the mail so I thought I would wait to play my list this week. I did come across Tainted Pact though due to another discussion in the banned list discussion forums and started wondering if it was a card I should consider running. My list as it is in the OP has only 4 swamps as the only redundancy in my list. Its interesting in that its cheap to cast and while its not a tutor really it could be a lot more interesting than something like Sign in Blood as it can keep going until we find a card we want.
I just thought I would start up some discussion to see if anyone else had a thought on the card.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I am waiting for some cards in the mail so I thought I would wait to play my list this week. I did come across Tainted Pact though due to another discussion in the banned list discussion forums and started wondering if it was a card I should consider running. My list as it is in the OP has only 4 swamps as the only redundancy in my list. Its interesting in that its cheap to cast and while its not a tutor really it could be a lot more interesting than something like Sign in Blood as it can keep going until we find a card we want.
I just thought I would start up some discussion to see if anyone else had a thought on the card.
It permanently exiles your deck until you find a single card. I considered it as well early on but its risk vs. benefit ratio caused it to end up back in the box.
I am waiting for some cards in the mail so I thought I would wait to play my list this week. I did come across Tainted Pact though due to another discussion in the banned list discussion forums and started wondering if it was a card I should consider running. My list as it is in the OP has only 4 swamps as the only redundancy in my list. Its interesting in that its cheap to cast and while its not a tutor really it could be a lot more interesting than something like Sign in Blood as it can keep going until we find a card we want.
I just thought I would start up some discussion to see if anyone else had a thought on the card.
I can understand the allure of running Tainted Pact since most of your cheap vampires are there simply as cheap ways of getting Edgar Markov to make tokens. Thus, it's not going to matter to you that much if they end up getting exiled while you're digging for what you're looking for. On the downside however, how deep are you going to be able to dig into your deck? Is it really that necessary? What's worth exiling most of your cards to tutor for anyways?
A 1B instant speed tutor seems great but you're already running much better tutors that don't have such a massive drawback as Tainted Pact does. You're already running Enlightened Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, Gamble, Imperial Seal, Demonic Tutor, and Diabolic Intent. And, although Goblin Tutor is a great tutor (1-costed at instant speed with a 2/3 chance of getting anything you'd want from the deck), I respect your disdain of silver-bordered cards so I won't suggest you run it until Jan. 15, 2018. That's 6 great tutors. So I feel that there are more significant points against running Tainted Pact than there are for it.
You probably feel that the deck needs to be more consistent because if you play a game where you're only drawing into cheap vampires and not really doing anything else, you may present a menacing board presence without any way of winning or backing it up. So a wrath will probably set you back or the table may consider you an archenemy. However, I don't feel that you should worry too much about that since the deck is so fast. You're also running cards like Dark Prophecy, Necropotence, Ad Nauseam, Bob, and Null Profusion (just noticed you swapped it out) which are great draw engines for a deck like this. If anything, I suggest you run Reprocess. For a mere 2BB (granted, the draw to mana ratio is super small but in a deck like this a 4-mana spell may seem to steep) you can sac a bunch of cheap vamps or tokens and draw a ton of cards. If you have ways to benefit from their death then its even better.
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I probably wont move on Tainted Pact right now but I also don't think that the concept of looking at the top 10 cards of my deck for a card I want and exiling the others matters. I do have a few tutors in this deck but for the most part if I am willing to exile a card to Tainted Pact its not the card I need at that point in time. I don't really know for sure how well it would work in theory but exiling a few cheap vampires to find some form of evasion or draw as needed should not be that big of a deal if you ask me.
I am still not sold that its "ideal" for this deck but I am also not sold that its not a card that would work here either. For now I will probably leave it be but its a card I think could be interesting to consider.
I noticed that you have 2 deck lists in the post now. Which one is current and updated?
There is only one list in the original post. It is up to date. There are probably two columns to the list but its just one list. As of this post the list is as follows:
I've been toying with the idea of Stromkirk Condemned. It's a great force multiplier, the only issue is if you have sufficient card draw. Considering you run much lower to the ground than me and you're more tribal than my agnostic tokens build, I was wondering why you haven't included it?
My brother recently built a list that is similar to this one, and he asked me to take a look at it and suggest some cuts. Well, it's so difficult that I could only really cut like 3-4 cards for him to slot in some new Vamps he purchased during Black Friday. The biggest issue, as noted, is how card advantage light he is. He runs out of gas quickly, and having a few wraths occur turn after turn is hard for him to come back from.
He and I were looking around and we rediscovered Cloudstone Curio for the deck. We think it's a great card because it allows you to maintain virtual card advantage, in that you're able to pick up actual vampire spells when Edgar spawns a token. It allows you to loop a couple of your CMC 1 Vampires a few times to build up your army quickly without totally dumping your hand onto the table. Curio is cheap in CMC so it can come down quickly in the early game and provide long-term value faster, it's decently easy to find with the various staple B tutors and Enlightened Tutor. The real question of course becomes "What to cut?" Anyways, I'm a blue player at heart, and swarming isn't really my style, but the deck is really quite good if you're playing with no-combo decks.
I've been toying with the idea of Stromkirk Condemned. It's a great force multiplier, the only issue is if you have sufficient card draw. Considering you run much lower to the ground than me and you're more tribal than my agnostic tokens build, I was wondering why you haven't included it?
Stromkirk Condemned - its ok if you are swimming in draw but its something I otherwise would not use. I played 3 games last night in a small pod and a few 1v1 games as well and there were several games that I was fighting through no card draw / no tutors. The deck already struggles without finding its broken draw. I maybe could see bringing it in for a three mana anthem vamp but I guess I am not really that excited for it. I can see when it would be decent I just think that when I am swimming in draw I am already doing fairly well and I probably dont need to winmore something off of that.
@ Tev
I think that ISBP didn't add it, cause he didn't have anything he could potentially madness into play or abuse for the discard... I do agree that it is a great card though.. also I think he has said in an earlier reply that the double black would be sometimes an issue...
Am not sure if I am saying it correctly, but that is mostly what I have assessed from earlier discussions about card choices... ^^
@ ISBP, I think you are right in not adding Tainted Pact, as some have stated it's more a combo helping card, it's 2 mana and overall cost (removing cards) is not worth it's inclusion, I would even go so far as to say that the low costing draw cards are probably better included over this if you really need more draw/search... but even those are not the most optimal I would assume.. though I personally do play the low costing draw cards cause I don't own some of the better options or don't have them in my list (as I might have stated/said earlier)
The BB is also relevant but I think its less relevant in some ways. If a card is really good and black intensive its still fine, its just more of a pain to include. I do run Necropotence for instance because I think that card is bonkers. It is something to be aware of but I think if the card is strong I am still willing to do it. I just think the card is a little winmore off of the back of my card draw plan going well given that I don't particularly like the card if that is not going well.
My brother recently built a list that is similar to this one, and he asked me to take a look at it and suggest some cuts. Well, it's so difficult that I could only really cut like 3-4 cards for him to slot in some new Vamps he purchased during Black Friday. The biggest issue, as noted, is how card advantage light he is. He runs out of gas quickly, and having a few wraths occur turn after turn is hard for him to come back from.
He and I were looking around and we rediscovered Cloudstone Curio for the deck. We think it's a great card because it allows you to maintain virtual card advantage, in that you're able to pick up actual vampire spells when Edgar spawns a token. It allows you to loop a couple of your CMC 1 Vampires a few times to build up your army quickly without totally dumping your hand onto the table. Curio is cheap in CMC so it can come down quickly in the early game and provide long-term value faster, it's decently easy to find with the various staple B tutors and Enlightened Tutor. The real question of course becomes "What to cut?" Anyways, I'm a blue player at heart, and swarming isn't really my style, but the deck is really quite good if you're playing with no-combo decks.
Cloudstone Curio - I had the card in my list for a while when I made the move to a fast and low curve. I ended up cutting it because of how much mana it really ate up. I really cant be hording one drop vamps in hand for after I play this because I need to play them. When I was assessing ideal situations I really came to the conclusion that it was at least a 5 mana card from the standpoint of how much mana I needed to feel that it was a decent move the turn I played it. I just cant be playing a 3 mana artifact that does nothing the turn I play it and I also really need a one drop vamp in hand as well as having 5+ mana. I just felt that there were too many restrictions in what it was that I wanted from the card. It does look fun but it looks super slow and the turn you play it seems like it has a ton of needs as you are generally talking about a 1 drop vampire in play and a 1 drop vampire in hand.
I do think that its a cool card, I just came to the conclusion that the setup required to make it work was too unwieldy.
It does look quite interesting. I think it will come down to what the "city blessing" does though. I think that the card is alright as it stands but the blessing is going to dictate how good the card is. I like that we could easily make this card work fairly quickly in this deck so I do think its a card that likely will be quite interesting but if the city blessing is a complete dud for some reason I think that it could be a bad card.
EDIT: apparently we did already see what the "city blessing" is which is that it is an emblem that does nothing but say that you have the city blessing. I think to be honest that this card while interesting really falls off without the city blessing doing something useful.
Do we like Elenda, the Dusk Rose? We have a fair amount of sac outlets, so powering her up wouldn't be too much of a problem, but that seems a little iffy to me.
Also, Glorious Destiny seems like a good addition. At worst, it's an anthem, but we tend to get to 10 permanents pretty quickly, and it becomes a lot better once we do.
Adanto Vanguard - for four life it can survive a wrath; plus its +2/0 is nice.
Bloodcrazed Paladin - his flash ability is nice. Your opponent wraths the board, you can flash in afterward and get the counters.
Asylum Visitor - possible card draw and 3/1 for two isn't bad either.
Metallic Mimic - not necessarily a vamp and does not trigger Edgar, but the +1/+1 counters is bonkers; even the tokens get the counters.
Sorry for the delay,
Throne of the God-Pharaoh - I am very leery of cards that require me to be set up, be able to attack and doing well for them to also be good. This card requires me to be able to have a swarm of guys, turn sideways with them, and keep them to some extent. It is true that it has potential for my opponents to lose a bunch of life from this but it has a lot of liability in that I need to be set up well to do combat and not lose all of my creatures as well. To some degree it means I need to curve a bunch of guys and get this upfront or that this card requires me to have a swarm of creatures and evasion for it to be decent. It just feels too dependant on too many other elements. I am also very leery of noncreature enablers because you can get a hand full of them without the creatures to enable them which can be really rough. I do think this card has potential but I also think that its setup for it to work entails a few expectations which I think makes this card a little winmore.
Adanto Vanguard - The problem is that its still not a good vampire. Its true that it can live through some wraths but I would rather have vampires that give me something other than wrath protection for a single creature. I would rather be proactive than reactive I guess is what it boils down to. I think its a vampire that "could" be run but what would you cut for it? I like essentially all of my two drops more than I like it which is why I dont run it.
Bloodcrazed Paladin - So..... yes it has flash. If you keep up two mana to cast it even for one turn you had better be playing it by your opponents end of turn though and I cant predict when that would be. If you are going to keep up two mana and wait for someone to try to wrath you then why not just run Boros Charm and be in a better position than having allowed them to wrath you? I dont care for it because I am never going to hold up that two mana and wait for my opponents to blow me up. Flash is not something I value on a deck that is proactively being the aggro deck. You literally would have to guess correctly the turn you will be wrathed for this card to be even.... decent.
Asylum Visitor - I literally cannot recall the last time I have ever seen an empty hand in commander without someone having used some sort of hand hate effect. If you do see your own or someone else's hands go empty then I guess go ahead and run it. I just cant recall having seen it anytime recently.
Metallic Mimic - its not bad but you don't get a vampire token from it so its still generally speaking just a worse vamp anthem than the actual vampires at three.
Do we like Elenda, the Dusk Rose? We have a fair amount of sac outlets, so powering her up wouldn't be too much of a problem, but that seems a little iffy to me.
Also, Glorious Destiny seems like a good addition. At worst, it's an anthem, but we tend to get to 10 permanents pretty quickly, and it becomes a lot better once we do.
Elenda, the Dusk Rose - Honestly, its a lot more focused on sticking to the board than it is to be proactive if you ask me. It kind of requires a sac outlet also to function all that well and it requires opponents to be using regular destroy / sac basded tactics rather than exile / tuck answers. I really don't think this would be the build for it offhand but I did previously have a list that was a little less tribal and more about pushing bodies through play and it had a heavier sac outlet presence. She can go infinite off of Nim Deathmantle / Ashnod's Altar for those who like combo but lets be honest..... there are so many things that go infinite off of that these days that its more of a surprise when ***** does not go infinite with that.
Glorious Destiny - being that we are almost always going to be the aggressor of the table I am not worried about opponents swinging into me because that means they ahve less to block with. Vigilance is probably one of the least useful abilities you can get as a fast aggro based deck. I would put this card as worse than Shared Triumph because it costs one more and I dont think I value vigilance much for this deck. I currently dont run Shared Triumph so I guess I would say its not very good in my mind.
Legion Lieutenant oh snap..... now that.... is a vampire. That is going in so fast my head spins. This is the kind of vampires I want to see. I could see like 8 more of them and every one of them would make the list lol.
Legion Lieutenant oh snap..... now that.... is a vampire. That is going in so fast my head spins. This is the kind of vampires I want to see. I could see like 8 more of them and every one of them would make the list lol.
It seems that Rivals of Ixalan will provide some goodies after all! Hopefully you'll be able to swap out lukewarm cards for cards like Legion Lieutenant and similar vampires from the set.
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It seems that Rivals of Ixalan will provide some goodies after all! Hopefully you'll be able to swap out lukewarm cards for cards like Legion Lieutenant and similar vampires from the set.
Given that 1 & 2 mana vampires are being run currently in part just because they are cheap vampires I did have some expectation to get some one and two mana vamps in the common / uncommon range. Really any one drop vamp that does anything other than being a 1/1 for 1 is a VERY high consideration so its not hard to make the expectation that if vamps are being printed that something should probably be good enough to see play.
I still expect to see a few more goodies yet. My original expectation for this set was probably 3-5 that I at least consider if not play with at least one of them being rare or mythic rarity. The 1-2 mana vamps is really what this deck lives on so its more likely that we see some good common / uncommons than it is that we get a bunch of rare / mythics.
I will try to highlights of the ones I think will be good and respond to questions that people ask. When everything is revealed I will do a set review and outline the changes I intend to make.
EDIT 2: and now we have Dusk Legion Zealot as well. I think he will also be very likely to make my list. Elvish Visionary that comes with an extra 1/1 on tribe creature should be an easy slot in.
EDIT 3:Arterial Flow that's actually quite solid disruption. Its sort of like Blightning for each opponent or a cheaper Unnerve with some life loss tagged on. I think it has some solid potential for this deck. It makes opponents choose between keeping proactive and reactive plays and either way it probably benefits us.
EDIT 4: Holy *****.... Champion of Dusk what??? I cant believe they just made this card lol. I am so excited for this set it has gone above and beyond my expectations.
I can only bump my thread once every two days so while I could have bumped today, I wanted to wait until tomorrow when the full set is spoiled to do a full set review.
Champion of Dusk for the win... The only thing it didn't have that really really really would have made this card over the top (it's already bonkers for our deck, but still I'm always looking for ways that a card "could" have been improved) is flying.
Champion of Dusk for the win... The only thing it didn't have that really really really would have made this card over the top (it's already bonkers for our deck, but still I'm always looking for ways that a card "could" have been improved) is flying.
Yeah...I mean we could get to 10 black mana in one turn with Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx so a guy can dream
Yea oddly enough I also complained earlier that a 4/4 for 5 vampire had no evasion lol. I think given everything it does we will be fine
I will wait until we get the final dump of cards (tomorrow I expect) to try to outline all of the ones I am interested in. It will be challanging to make all of these changes at the same time but I suspect that's how I will handle it.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Bishop of Binding it costs a lot at 4 mana and one of the things that we are kind of weaker to in this deck is sweepers. In this case your removal falls apart if opponents creature sweep leaving what might be a problem creature in play post sweep. Its really not a great idea if you ask me.
Famished Paladin I think its a cool design but it doesn't really fit this list. I think its cool, but probably not worth using in this list.
Forerunner of the Legion tutoring to topdeck a vampire which we have to show.... its not great. It also costs a little more than I would want. The static ability to buff vampires is ok but its target vampire and we are mostly a swarm tactic based deck so its worse than an anthem most every time. I think this is.... close to playable but given that it can only tutor vamps and onlty to topdeck (as well as revealing them) I think it lacks a little. I would say it got to about 70% of where I wanted it to be playable. I probably would have taken them dropping the second ability to drop it one mana, moving the second ability to a global vampire anthem, or move the tutor to hand and I think it would have been good enough. I think it came close but just didnt quite follow through enough for me.
Legion Conquistador reprint, and it doesnt really function in this format so its bad.
Martyr of Dusk three bodies for 2 mana is a good thing. It does lack evasion though and the extra body is after it dies which is unfortunate because I think if it had evasion or gave the body upfront this would have been a great card. Its more robust though than aggressive as it stands and I dont think its quite good enough right now as it is. I think this one is close and probably playable but I personally would have wanted evasion or the token upfront as it stands.
Paladin of Atonement this card is more built for control strategies (which we are not).
Radiant Destiny I dont really value vigilance being I am trying to be the aggressor of the game. If you see a lot of decks that are also coming out hot and fast that you feel you need to be able to attack with every creature and defend with them too.... ok but realistically we put so many bodies in play every turn that on average I don't have an issue having something to chump block with. I don't value noncreature vamp anthems all that much because they don't come with a body to attack with / make tokens off of edgar with.
Sanguine Glorifier limited fodder vamp. It costs too much and does too little.
Skymarcher Aspirant given how many bodies we make and how quickly we do it, this is usually going to be a 2/1 flyer for 1 that also makes an extra body. I would say this outclasses several of my vanilla 1 drop vamps given evasion and the 2/1 statline.
Blood Sun given all of the fetchlands I run I would personally avoid this card. I think it potentially is an interesting card to consider though if you happen to be using a budget list as it can screw with people who have a better manabase than you. With our list being a fast aggressive swarm style of deck there dont tend to be many utility lands that screw with us here. If there is a reason to consider this card it would be as a disruption tactic for someone running a little slower list.
Tilonalli's Summoner I do kind of like the idea of all of the bodies this can make for something like Blood Artist / Purphoros, God of the Forge / Zulaport Cutthroat. I probably wont be employing it anytime soon but I guess I just thought I would say that I can see room to argue / run this card from that perspective.
BLACK:
Arterial Flow I LOVE this card from the standpoint that its an each opponent Blightning style of effect. Taking out two cards from each opponent makes them choose between their reactive and proactive strategy as well. Being that we are a tempo style of card this potentially trips and slows down our opponents while also doing damage to them. I am not really sure if its right for this deck but I think it has some really good potential.
Champion of Dusk card draw jammed into a top curve vamp? I could be greedy and request it cost less or had evasion but lets face it.... this is a nice hand refill for this deck.
Golden Demise so.... this can serve a similar role to why I added Mizzium Mortars to this deck in the first place. Remove my opponents chump blockers / tokens. I think this has some good potential given that it costs one more than Mizzium Mortars for single target but it costs half as much as the overload.
Gruesome fate it could be sort of similar to Malakir Bloodwitch or Throne of the God-Pharaoh. I am still sort of figuring out where I stand on these effects as I dont think there is an easy answer to which ones to run and in what number. You could argue that Purphoros, God of the Forge is sort of similar too but the difference is that he is sticky, can anthem my creatures, and lets my play my creatures into it for turns after until he is answered. Gruesome fate is interesting in that it does not require my creatures to all be tapped which Throne of the God-Pharaoh requires which might get them killed and does not allow me to swarm the board and play the effect in the same turn as newly created creatures. I don't really have a good answer to if I should be running this effect or not right now.... I think it does have potential and I don't think its "wrong" to run but I also question it from the standpoint that its a card that requires you to be doing generally good for it to be good. This is part of why I tend to avoid this sort of effect because it might sit in hand and wait until you are in a good position for it to be decent at which point..... you are in a good position anyways. For now.... I am going to pass but I don't think its wrong to test / run it... I just see reasons to not run it right now.
Oathsworn Vampire so, it lacks evasion but its a 2/2 for 1B vamp that I can potentially cast again later. Its sort of a reassembling skeleton style of creature. I think it really comes down to how much lifegain you have in list as a question of if it can be run. This is a robust option rather than an aggressive option so it pushes for a bit more of a midrange style of build. Given the free tokens from casting vamps though and that its recovery is cast from grave I do think it might be worth running. I think each list might vary a little in how many enabling lifegain triggers so I don't think this is a staple for every list but possibly something that each list has to consider how many enablers they run for it.
Sadistic Skymarcher it is bad Vampire Nighthawk. There is no real compelling reason for me to consider it given I don't think that Vampire Nighthawk is quite good enough. It came in a little short even if you do like Vampire Nighthawk the lack of deathtouch for the same mana is really the killer.
Twilight Prophet Its another Dark Confidant but with flying and it hits opponents instead of us. This seems incredibly powerful given it gives us some AOE output + draw + its a vamp. I dont know what else you can do to sell it to me lol.
Vona's Hunger I think that its not too hard to hit Ascend but there is the question of what do you want to be running removal for. For me I want to clear out all the tokens / utility creatures rather than worry about the potential of a voltron deck or a deck full of big creatures. This card in my mind is more for those worried about bigger creatures and voltron decks which is not my worry.
Voracious Vampire its not stat efficient enough. I like the things it does but it costs more than I would want and lacks the stats I would want.
Vraska's Conquistador it would be ok if it just always did its effect rather than rely on a bad walker. Even then it would be boarderline at best but given its restriction its just bad.
MULTI:
Elenda, the Dusk Rose She honestly comes up short in so many ways for me. She really requires a sac outlet for her to work very well. She is a four drop which is higher on my curve and all of her abilities are more built for recovery post sweeper than to be proactive. Without a sac outlet you are also probably just going to get wrathed and while she will see the other deaths she will only make a single 1/1 because she cant get the +/+ counters as she dies. She is really..... really not good. She has some potential in a sac based build as well as if you want to go infinite with something like Ashnod's Altar + Nim Deathmantle but as she is for this deck, she is a complete whiff.
Legion Lieutenant can I have like 5 functional reprints please? This card is incredible. I would play these guys all day if they would give me more. I essentially play several copies of this card as three drops with essentially what it is right now so its a mana saving.
The Immortal Sun it is a good card and almost everything it does seems relevant here. Drawing extra cards, cutting costs on cards, anthem. Its a good card and the only reason I wont be running it is because it costs too much mana for this deck. There is a lot of competition for the 5+ mana cards and honestly I don't want my deck full of them (especially on non vamps).
I tried to bold the cards I thought were more worth considering from this set but I think there are a few that I did not bold as well that could still be viable. This set honestly gave me more cards to consider than I had anticipated. I guess the next move is asking what changes I intend to make.
DECK CHANGES:
Falkenrath Gorger -> Skymarcher Aspirant essentially red is the color I care about the least upfront. I considered cutting one of the black 1 drops especially one of the more vanilla ones but I felt that shifting my needs upfront a little less from red helps me more than the difference between a 1/1 and a 2/1 for one.
Stoneforge Mystic -> Dusk Legion Zealot given I only have one tutor target and its not a great creature, I think I will cut it for now. I could see it coming back in but I kind of wish it was with another tutor target if I keep it in so for now I will cut it given how many extra tutor and draw effects I have added lately.
Mavren Fein, Dusk Apostle -> Legion Lieutenant Mavren just has not been great. Essentially I need to ramp into him or pair him with evasion for it to work out like at all.
Yahenni, Undying Partisan -> Twilight Prophet I kept Yahenni since earlier builds. I do like sac outlets but I dont think I really need to be paying for it with him. He is kind of robust and can get bigger but still, I think he has been kind of boarderline for the mana for a while now. The prophet adds draw and costs a little more than him but I think I am ok with making the trade off.
Athreos, God of Passage -> Champion of Dusk Athreos has been the least impressive of the gods I run. I like that he probably turns into a creature the easiest of the gods I run but in a nut shell he just tries to give me some pseudo draw. Trading him out for actual draw seems ok to me.
Tangle Wire -> Arterial Flow Both of these cards give some tempo. The hope for the wire is to buy myself time upfront where as the hope for Arterial Flow is to exhaust and throw off my opponents mid / late game.
Gamble -> Oathsworn Vampire Given all of the tutors and draw I am adding of late, I think I can justify cutting gamble. I never did manage to find it since I added it but still, its the least stable. I am a little bit questioning Oathsworn Vampire just because I don't feel I am that heavy on gaining life but I think I do it enough to make him trigger on occasion to be replayable.
Mizzium Mortars -> Golden Demise the "cost" of the cards goes up by one but the actual intended casting cost drops by three which I think is more important. -2/-2 should really mess up a lot of potential blockers.
I also put some consideration into if I wanted to cut Mirror Entity, Rakish Heir, or Tithe Drinker because all three I have also had some mediocre success with. I intend to get these changes in and get more testing with these new cards for now. I think there are a few others that could possibly be played or tested but I brought in essentially everything that I thought was worth it right now.
On a budget, the flow of games is quite dofferent, and I personally value my vampires differently.
In your case, fetch lands into dual lands and expensive fast mana rocks and one mana fast tutors into necropotence allow you to throw out a pile of one drops and keep a full hand... all in the first 3 or 4 turns.
On my budget and my playgroup, we are buying mana confluence amd city of brass to reduce how many lands come into play tapped. Without Purphoros, God of the Forge or the ability to reliably hit Malakir Bloodwitxh whenever I want, a pile of 1 drops isn't going to give me nearly the value as it does in your build. Nevertheless, I can clearly understand why, after your reply and battle report(s), that they are what you prefer.
Possibility Storm - its really similar to Anointed Procession but with a disruption effect too. I get your issue with the card though and I myself have been questioning it since having drawn it in the previous game highlight. Its an interesting card and I wanted to see how it went but I think I do agree with you in the end that it questions when it is that I would spend the time to cast it and its mostly if I am having a hard time / I don't have the kind of draw I need to play. It isn't a card that digs me out of a problem I am already having so I cant play it after I am having an issue but before I am having an issue I also don't want to play it because of how much mana it costs and the fact that its not doing what I want to be doing for the most part.
The cost of a deck is kind of a perspective kind of a question. I ran it through deckbuilder (link here) for kicks which honestly their prices are on the low end of things usually but it quoted me $1,500 for the deck. I ran through the landbase I have in the deckstats and it accounted for over $800 worth of the cost of the deck so it means that the non landbase portion of the deck I am looking at is down to $700 and in that I have Mox Diamond, Mana Crypt, Wheel of Fortune, Demonic Tutor, and Vampiric Tutor making up $370 ish of that remaining $700 meaning the other 61 cards in the deck is only like $300 for the deck. I happened to have already owned essentially all of the lands and those 5 cards so while all of this might sound expensive essentially all of the expensive parts of this deck I have owned for years and I probably payed less than half of what they cost now. Demonic / Vampiric / Wheel have all very recently pushed up in price and all of the copies I own were all in the $10-15 price when I got them and I have owned a full set of ABU lands for a while now.
I guess what I am saying is that price is kind of a subjective question. Lots of the price tag in this deck comes from long term staples and those that are not are very cheap niche things for this build. I used to have a Jenara, Asura of War deck together that was well over $3,000s so a 3 color deck coming in at $1,500 where over half of that is a landbase I have owned for years doesn't seem all that expensive to me. For what its worth I do think you can take the core of what I am doing and take out the fast mana and the expensive landbase and I do think you are still left with the same deck that probably performs a turn or so slower due to the landbase and it probably only runs $600 which for a three color deck is quite good. If you cheapen the landbase its really going to push you a turn or two back but I think a lot of these concepts would still work. Most of the expensive cards in the deck are cards that enable the deck. I think the important part is to land your card draw and this concept really does work. Some of these tutors are kind of spendy now but these have been very recent price spikes on cards that have been amazing since these cards were created far before this format. I do feel bad for those who don't have their copies of these cards but I have essentially had a 2-4 set of most of these tutors for a good portion of time now.
Sorry for that long posted reply but I guess what I wanted to say is that most of the money in this deck is to make it function a little faster and smoother. I think you can take a very big portion of the cost out and just have the deck function a turn or two slower while still preserving essentially the same cards. The important concept of this deck is to have unfair refill / draw effects that enable running lots of cheap drops to function.
Ok, I have a few changes I want to try out. I have been giving some thought to a few cards and I want to make a few changes after giving these cards some thought.
DECK CHANGES:
For those of you on a budget I apologize as adding more expensive tutors is not really all that friendly of me but my goal is in the end to try to make the best deck I can under my own restrictions (I don't play combo). I do think these two changes will be positive for me in my list and this change further drops the mana cost of this deck as well. Austere Command is a card I have been trying to figure out how to work in for a good long time so I am glad I found a spot for it but I feel a little bittersweet cutting draw for it but the fact that I am also adding another tutor to the deck means I probably have just as much access to draw.
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[Modern] Allies
Honestly, I own single copies of fetch lands, mana crypt, fast tutors and so forth thanks to eternal masters... which are mostly being used in my Breya artifact combo deck.
I could probaly build about 70% of this deck, minus some of the vampires and the red gods. I am unlikely ever to own some of the old cards, as shipping costs to peru is a joke along with our customs office. The best hope is arranging when magic players go to the states to bring stuff back... so it had better be worth it.
When you say a lower budget "only pushes you a turn or two back," that is an understatement if there ever was one. Turn one fetch land into a dual land into a fast tutor, turn 2 mana crypt and god of the forge, then turn 3 a pile of one drops to dish out tons of damage if MUCH different than playing Scry temples, signets, ambition's cost and diabolic tutor. It is more than just one or two turns... more like a turn 6 win is looking like turn 9 or 10 at best?
Please do not misunderstand me. I love what I see here and enjoy imagining and seeing what this can do. I applaud your efforts. I am just giving some perspective.
What interests me the most is the idea of churning out lots of vampires and giving them quality evasion like menace, then pumping the swarm after blockers are declared with mirror entity.
My current version of the deck has done its best on the budget I am working with. I recently added pain lands and replaced the bad etb tapped lands with scry temples. I added the likes of city of brass, mana confluence and unclaimed territory to color production. The red and white hideaway lands are quite interesting and came in last year's commander decks. They work perfect when you are going wode with tokens. It is easy to trigger either of them. Right now I am just focused on fixing, card draw, threats, removal, and anthem/evasion/protection effects for my army. Casting a rootborn defense or boros charm into a board wipe feels so good.
If my group gets really competitive, I might move cards over from breya and even print some place holder proxies and copy your list until I can get the missing cards. That is why the internet is so great.
I love these forums, if for nothing else, for the quality of the people here. This is the best community in magic and you guys are why.
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P.S. Now compare that to Inalla, which my wife owns. That deck is only missing $3 Ashnod's Altar as a two card combo with her commander and our vampire wizard. She can go turn 2 signet, turn three cast a diabolic tutor or do wizard cycling with that common from future sight to find what she needs and she can go off on turn 5 on a budget of under $10... compared to your "$300" cards which might do something by turn 8?
That is some perspective as well.
Dragons can change to Scion and wreck our day with a fetched up a $3 Nicol Bolas from Tine Spiral before we get to turn 6 or 7. Slow8ng down a few turns changes the whole game, and is why your friends scooped. It wasn't that they coukdn't do anything... it was that they coukdn't do anything that quickly.
Sorry I didn't intend to demean anyone else's situation. I am married with no children while both of us work so I am in a place right now where I can afford to spend money on my hobby. I have been playing commander since 2010 and with that I have put some investment into a lot of staples to just be able to field a certain number of decks at a time. I do also understand that adding a bunch of tap lands into the deck would slow it down but some like pain lands are actually not bad as the life lost to them is not that bad for an aggro deck. Being that this deck does have a fast focus to it I have put a lot of emphasis in making the landbase efficient and fast.
The game I highlighted earlier was literally one of the most ideal setups I have had so I guess I would say its not what I would call a "normal" game with this deck. Most of my games are not that fast and do involve more instances of being answered and swept and playing towards recovery plans.
I also really appreciate all those who read and post here. Sometimes I am slow to make changes but I do take a lot of the feedback to heart and sometimes someone feeling something looks off at least gets me to thinking about a card. I am not always right by any means but sometimes pointing out and questioning a card inclusion or making a suggestion gets me thinking on a card and sometimes that ultimately leads to a change.
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[Modern] Allies
I love buying the commander pre-cons and making budget improvements so that the decks feel different and unique.
2011 Kaalia lets me play with crazy angels, demons, and dragons... then clean up with mass land destruction and the attack step.
2013 Roon allows me to build a flicker deck.
2013 Oloro allows me to have a classic Esper control build. Mystical teachings into Teferi and Dralnu to reuse my graveyard filled with counter spells and card draw, and with with the 50 life kitty or some other non-combat route to victory.
2014 Mono Black Ghoulcaller Gisa good stuff. Dark Depths, Army of the Damned, and giant Drain Life/Consume Spirit spells to kill players.
2015 Mizzix spell combos. Enter the infinite into lab man. Firemind's Foresight into a Reiterate + Red Ritual combo. Mystic Retrival + Runic Repetition + Time Magic and winning with Young Pyromancer or Guttersnipe kinds of cards. So many paths to a spellslinger win, and nothing is very expensive.
2015 Plunder the Graves sacrifice for value drck.
2016 Breya artifact combos with Ashnod's Altar, Krank Clan, Helm of obedience, eldrazi displacer, etc. Goblin Welder some high casting cost artifacts for value. That kind of thing.
2016 Guardians of Meletis grouo hug control with other funny budget combos like landfall + the blue retreat and walking atlas.
2017 Edgar Markov has been a really fun way to go wode AND go tall with anthem effects. We can churn out an army quickly and make them large and evasive in no time. Curving into Door of Destanies one game had me swinging with a 7/8 Blood Artist. This deck can do a lot on a budget.
I like your decks my friend. No hard feelings. Just different perspectives.
I am waiting for some cards in the mail so I thought I would wait to play my list this week. I did come across Tainted Pact though due to another discussion in the banned list discussion forums and started wondering if it was a card I should consider running. My list as it is in the OP has only 4 swamps as the only redundancy in my list. Its interesting in that its cheap to cast and while its not a tutor really it could be a lot more interesting than something like Sign in Blood as it can keep going until we find a card we want.
I just thought I would start up some discussion to see if anyone else had a thought on the card.
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[Modern] Allies
Personally, I think it's a great combo deck card; I don't see it doing much work in your deck.
Mid-Tier:
Filthy Casual: WUBRG Jodah WUBRG WUBRG Fatties WUBRG
It permanently exiles your deck until you find a single card. I considered it as well early on but its risk vs. benefit ratio caused it to end up back in the box.
I can understand the allure of running Tainted Pact since most of your cheap vampires are there simply as cheap ways of getting Edgar Markov to make tokens. Thus, it's not going to matter to you that much if they end up getting exiled while you're digging for what you're looking for. On the downside however, how deep are you going to be able to dig into your deck? Is it really that necessary? What's worth exiling most of your cards to tutor for anyways?
A 1B instant speed tutor seems great but you're already running much better tutors that don't have such a massive drawback as Tainted Pact does. You're already running Enlightened Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, Gamble, Imperial Seal, Demonic Tutor, and Diabolic Intent. And, although Goblin Tutor is a great tutor (1-costed at instant speed with a 2/3 chance of getting anything you'd want from the deck), I respect your disdain of silver-bordered cards so I won't suggest you run it until Jan. 15, 2018. That's 6 great tutors. So I feel that there are more significant points against running Tainted Pact than there are for it.
You probably feel that the deck needs to be more consistent because if you play a game where you're only drawing into cheap vampires and not really doing anything else, you may present a menacing board presence without any way of winning or backing it up. So a wrath will probably set you back or the table may consider you an archenemy. However, I don't feel that you should worry too much about that since the deck is so fast. You're also running cards like Dark Prophecy, Necropotence, Ad Nauseam, Bob,
and Null Profusion(just noticed you swapped it out) which are great draw engines for a deck like this. If anything, I suggest you run Reprocess. For a mere 2BB (granted, the draw to mana ratio is super small but in a deck like this a 4-mana spell may seem to steep) you can sac a bunch of cheap vamps or tokens and draw a ton of cards. If you have ways to benefit from their death then its even better.BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
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GVorinclex, Voice of HungerG
WUBMerieke Ri BeritWUB
UBRNekusar, the MindrazerUBR
GWUBAtraxa, Praetors' VoiceGWUB
I am still not sold that its "ideal" for this deck but I am also not sold that its not a card that would work here either. For now I will probably leave it be but its a card I think could be interesting to consider.
There is only one list in the original post. It is up to date. There are probably two columns to the list but its just one list. As of this post the list is as follows:
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Mid-Tier:
Filthy Casual: WUBRG Jodah WUBRG WUBRG Fatties WUBRG
He and I were looking around and we rediscovered Cloudstone Curio for the deck. We think it's a great card because it allows you to maintain virtual card advantage, in that you're able to pick up actual vampire spells when Edgar spawns a token. It allows you to loop a couple of your CMC 1 Vampires a few times to build up your army quickly without totally dumping your hand onto the table. Curio is cheap in CMC so it can come down quickly in the early game and provide long-term value faster, it's decently easy to find with the various staple B tutors and Enlightened Tutor. The real question of course becomes "What to cut?" Anyways, I'm a blue player at heart, and swarming isn't really my style, but the deck is really quite good if you're playing with no-combo decks.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
Stromkirk Condemned - its ok if you are swimming in draw but its something I otherwise would not use. I played 3 games last night in a small pod and a few 1v1 games as well and there were several games that I was fighting through no card draw / no tutors. The deck already struggles without finding its broken draw. I maybe could see bringing it in for a three mana anthem vamp but I guess I am not really that excited for it. I can see when it would be decent I just think that when I am swimming in draw I am already doing fairly well and I probably dont need to winmore something off of that.
The BB is also relevant but I think its less relevant in some ways. If a card is really good and black intensive its still fine, its just more of a pain to include. I do run Necropotence for instance because I think that card is bonkers. It is something to be aware of but I think if the card is strong I am still willing to do it. I just think the card is a little winmore off of the back of my card draw plan going well given that I don't particularly like the card if that is not going well.
Cloudstone Curio - I had the card in my list for a while when I made the move to a fast and low curve. I ended up cutting it because of how much mana it really ate up. I really cant be hording one drop vamps in hand for after I play this because I need to play them. When I was assessing ideal situations I really came to the conclusion that it was at least a 5 mana card from the standpoint of how much mana I needed to feel that it was a decent move the turn I played it. I just cant be playing a 3 mana artifact that does nothing the turn I play it and I also really need a one drop vamp in hand as well as having 5+ mana. I just felt that there were too many restrictions in what it was that I wanted from the card. It does look fun but it looks super slow and the turn you play it seems like it has a ton of needs as you are generally talking about a 1 drop vampire in play and a 1 drop vampire in hand.
I do think that its a cool card, I just came to the conclusion that the setup required to make it work was too unwieldy.
It does look quite interesting. I think it will come down to what the "city blessing" does though. I think that the card is alright as it stands but the blessing is going to dictate how good the card is. I like that we could easily make this card work fairly quickly in this deck so I do think its a card that likely will be quite interesting but if the city blessing is a complete dud for some reason I think that it could be a bad card.
EDIT: apparently we did already see what the "city blessing" is which is that it is an emblem that does nothing but say that you have the city blessing. I think to be honest that this card while interesting really falls off without the city blessing doing something useful.
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Also, here are some possible vamps to consider:
Adanto Vanguard - for four life it can survive a wrath; plus its +2/0 is nice.
Bloodcrazed Paladin - his flash ability is nice. Your opponent wraths the board, you can flash in afterward and get the counters.
Asylum Visitor - possible card draw and 3/1 for two isn't bad either.
Metallic Mimic - not necessarily a vamp and does not trigger Edgar, but the +1/+1 counters is bonkers; even the tokens get the counters.
Also, Glorious Destiny seems like a good addition. At worst, it's an anthem, but we tend to get to 10 permanents pretty quickly, and it becomes a lot better once we do.
RGWMayael the AnimaRGW
UBRMarchesa, the Black RoseUBR
Modern Decks
RGWNaya BurnRGW
Sorry for the delay,
Throne of the God-Pharaoh - I am very leery of cards that require me to be set up, be able to attack and doing well for them to also be good. This card requires me to be able to have a swarm of guys, turn sideways with them, and keep them to some extent. It is true that it has potential for my opponents to lose a bunch of life from this but it has a lot of liability in that I need to be set up well to do combat and not lose all of my creatures as well. To some degree it means I need to curve a bunch of guys and get this upfront or that this card requires me to have a swarm of creatures and evasion for it to be decent. It just feels too dependant on too many other elements. I am also very leery of noncreature enablers because you can get a hand full of them without the creatures to enable them which can be really rough. I do think this card has potential but I also think that its setup for it to work entails a few expectations which I think makes this card a little winmore.
Adanto Vanguard - The problem is that its still not a good vampire. Its true that it can live through some wraths but I would rather have vampires that give me something other than wrath protection for a single creature. I would rather be proactive than reactive I guess is what it boils down to. I think its a vampire that "could" be run but what would you cut for it? I like essentially all of my two drops more than I like it which is why I dont run it.
Bloodcrazed Paladin - So..... yes it has flash. If you keep up two mana to cast it even for one turn you had better be playing it by your opponents end of turn though and I cant predict when that would be. If you are going to keep up two mana and wait for someone to try to wrath you then why not just run Boros Charm and be in a better position than having allowed them to wrath you? I dont care for it because I am never going to hold up that two mana and wait for my opponents to blow me up. Flash is not something I value on a deck that is proactively being the aggro deck. You literally would have to guess correctly the turn you will be wrathed for this card to be even.... decent.
Asylum Visitor - I literally cannot recall the last time I have ever seen an empty hand in commander without someone having used some sort of hand hate effect. If you do see your own or someone else's hands go empty then I guess go ahead and run it. I just cant recall having seen it anytime recently.
Metallic Mimic - its not bad but you don't get a vampire token from it so its still generally speaking just a worse vamp anthem than the actual vampires at three.
Elenda, the Dusk Rose - Honestly, its a lot more focused on sticking to the board than it is to be proactive if you ask me. It kind of requires a sac outlet also to function all that well and it requires opponents to be using regular destroy / sac basded tactics rather than exile / tuck answers. I really don't think this would be the build for it offhand but I did previously have a list that was a little less tribal and more about pushing bodies through play and it had a heavier sac outlet presence. She can go infinite off of Nim Deathmantle / Ashnod's Altar for those who like combo but lets be honest..... there are so many things that go infinite off of that these days that its more of a surprise when ***** does not go infinite with that.
Glorious Destiny - being that we are almost always going to be the aggressor of the table I am not worried about opponents swinging into me because that means they ahve less to block with. Vigilance is probably one of the least useful abilities you can get as a fast aggro based deck. I would put this card as worse than Shared Triumph because it costs one more and I dont think I value vigilance much for this deck. I currently dont run Shared Triumph so I guess I would say its not very good in my mind.
Legion Lieutenant oh snap..... now that.... is a vampire. That is going in so fast my head spins. This is the kind of vampires I want to see. I could see like 8 more of them and every one of them would make the list lol.
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It seems that Rivals of Ixalan will provide some goodies after all! Hopefully you'll be able to swap out lukewarm cards for cards like Legion Lieutenant and similar vampires from the set.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
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Given that 1 & 2 mana vampires are being run currently in part just because they are cheap vampires I did have some expectation to get some one and two mana vamps in the common / uncommon range. Really any one drop vamp that does anything other than being a 1/1 for 1 is a VERY high consideration so its not hard to make the expectation that if vamps are being printed that something should probably be good enough to see play.
I still expect to see a few more goodies yet. My original expectation for this set was probably 3-5 that I at least consider if not play with at least one of them being rare or mythic rarity. The 1-2 mana vamps is really what this deck lives on so its more likely that we see some good common / uncommons than it is that we get a bunch of rare / mythics.
I will try to highlights of the ones I think will be good and respond to questions that people ask. When everything is revealed I will do a set review and outline the changes I intend to make.
EDIT: Ohhhh we got Skymarcher Aspirant too. That looks really nice. It should be really easy to hit Ascend so I like that. I would probably consider it in place of Falkenrath Gorger or possibly Guul Draz Vampire
EDIT 2: and now we have Dusk Legion Zealot as well. I think he will also be very likely to make my list. Elvish Visionary that comes with an extra 1/1 on tribe creature should be an easy slot in.
EDIT 3: Arterial Flow that's actually quite solid disruption. Its sort of like Blightning for each opponent or a cheaper Unnerve with some life loss tagged on. I think it has some solid potential for this deck. It makes opponents choose between keeping proactive and reactive plays and either way it probably benefits us.
EDIT 4: Holy *****.... Champion of Dusk what??? I cant believe they just made this card lol. I am so excited for this set it has gone above and beyond my expectations.
I can only bump my thread once every two days so while I could have bumped today, I wanted to wait until tomorrow when the full set is spoiled to do a full set review.
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My new dream play is: Cast Malakir Bloodwitch and then cast Champion of Dusk
Yeah...I mean we could get to 10 black mana in one turn with Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx so a guy can dream
Yea oddly enough I also complained earlier that a 4/4 for 5 vampire had no evasion lol. I think given everything it does we will be fine
I will wait until we get the final dump of cards (tomorrow I expect) to try to outline all of the ones I am interested in. It will be challanging to make all of these changes at the same time but I suspect that's how I will handle it.
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RGWMayael the AnimaRGW
UBRMarchesa, the Black RoseUBR
Modern Decks
RGWNaya BurnRGW
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I tried to bold the cards I thought were more worth considering from this set but I think there are a few that I did not bold as well that could still be viable. This set honestly gave me more cards to consider than I had anticipated. I guess the next move is asking what changes I intend to make.
DECK CHANGES:
I also put some consideration into if I wanted to cut Mirror Entity, Rakish Heir, or Tithe Drinker because all three I have also had some mediocre success with. I intend to get these changes in and get more testing with these new cards for now. I think there are a few others that could possibly be played or tested but I brought in essentially everything that I thought was worth it right now.
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[Modern] Allies