It has the problem that it gives a lot of options to opponents. If you are up against a token based deck it can be rough because they are already hard to attack with a swarm of vamps. You generally have to rely on getting buffs and then they still can chump block you decently or double block your creatures to get trades still. Harsh Mercy against a token deck would not do well. Then if you get a control or voltron deck they are probably dealing with like one thing at a time so again you are not removing them.
My issue with Harsh Mercy is that there are just too few situations that it is going to meaningfully affect the board. You need to be playing against an aggro deck that uses a lot of different style of creatures for it to work and I just think the types of decks that it works against are too narrow. Whenever possible its better to remove opponents input when it comes to removal effects.
I don't see Shared Animosity in your list. That's single best offensive anthem for tribals in Markov's colors and you can easily find it with WB tutors. You could even play In the Web of War for more offensive goodness.
Shared Animosity - I got it in my hand a few times and I could never justify casting it. Its a card that requires you to have a big swarm of creatures and your opponents to not have any. Even if its a big buff you at best try to kill a single opponent because you cant really spread the attack out or you literally engage every single blocker at the same time. Its possible if you see yourself sacrificing some vamps and trying to kill a player at a time its maybe ok. I just found it reliant on too many maybies for me. I got it in hand a few times and never cast it because I could never justify it over other actions / options I had.
In the Web of War - it costs too much and its not going to help the creatures that came before it. Its important to consider cards that are more expensive that benefit off of what we have already done vs what we will do next in a deck like this. Bloodlord of Vaasgoth is a good example of a card I used to play very early on but I ended up cutting him because he was high on my curve and did not benefit anything I had done before him. Sure, if given time there is tons of value behind him but he was expensive on the curve and I probably already blew my load getting other creatures into play before him. In this sense I try very hard for anything that costs essentially 3+ mana to look at what I have already done instead of what I am going to do next.
@ Kasls - Harsh Mercy was not mentioned because it's not good vs quite a few decks, it's bad vs any form of token generation and any form of tribal.. the most difficult match up to win for Edgar is mostly other rush and tribal decks, thus Harsh Mercy is not a great inclusion, cause it does literally nothing against those kind of decks.. I believe ISBP has already said something along those lines about it's exclusion if not mistaken..
@ Artaud - I already also said to include that, but ISBP doesn't like it, I believe it was because it doesn't give any form of evasion and isn't a vampire.. not 100% sure if that was the reason, but I believe he felt it didn't do enough for him the games he did draw it.. Which I do understand from his personal opinion.. I did include it in my list and I would also say it's one of the best if not the best pump out there.. but everyone has their own views/beliefs and experience with cards.. I do think he tested the card for a bit before making his decision about not including it or cutting it lets say...
Into the Web of War is a bit high costed and overall this list is a low curve list, topping of into an enchantment that does nothing after a sweeper is not a great option for a list like this.. I get why you would mention it though.. but there is a 4 mana creature (Ogre Battledriver)that does the same and even that is not great enough overall from my experience also..
@ ISBP - I agree on most of the card options that you said, I think that the overall low costed vampires are really nice, that pump lord was even better than I had expected one to be from this set for vampires... so that is defo insta include... 1 mana 2/1 flyer (potentially) is also one of the best options we have... the high end 4 and 5 cost ones are really nice cause of the way they give you more gas and not having to be a non-vampire/non-creature to give it to us.. especially love the 4 mana one (Twilight Prophet)... Reverse Confidant wil be pretty busted if you can draw her at the right time I feel... getting the Ascension is pretty much guaranteed for most rush Edgar lists I think... not hard to pull of by turn 4 I would would imagine.. ^^
Only other decks that might be able to do this really early are Krenko and Elves I think.. I am doubtful about the sac card, I do think it can be good, but also can mis a lot of times indeed..
Yea that is more or less my thoughts.
Krenko is a little more linear though too. I say this from the perspective that you can roughly guess where and what he will be doing the next turn. I think he has more potential to be explosive but he also gives a target to remove that will screw up a lot of plans and he is slower to rebuild. (I primarily am talking about the non combo krenko builds). I think Krenko probably goes bigger than us faster if you were strictly counting the amount of time to kill everyone but I think he is also a lot worse vs interaction from opponents.
Elves - honestly I haven't seen a very good elf deck in commander in some time. I think Ezuri, Renegade Leader is cool but honestly I kind of wish we would see elves back again because they could use another variation of legendary creature for some variance in build options. I have heard of some who take Edric, Spymaster of Trest and make a tribal deck out of him but I don't really see the reason to ever go tribal with Edric instead of just making the fastest most broken deck you can (which is not elf tribal).
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I think the biggest concern is just the amount of time and mana it eats up. I think if you want to build a dedicated combo deck it can work out but as far as like what it does outside of combo I am not very impressed. The 3 mana to cast it takes kind of a lot to recover and pass. Outside of the combo it means sacirifcing like 5+ creatures to recover the mana you spent and generate much of anything which I dont think is in line with what the deck naturally wants to do.
Zervintz had an interesting list here which used Haakon, Stromgald Scourge, Bold Impaler, and Phyrexian Altar to do an infinite loop as well. I think its possible that you could add to this same combo option as both of them use the Altar overlap. I am just not sold on the altar without trying to focus on infinite combo and that is not my own goal for the deck which is why I don't think its very useful to me. I do think that if you want to put a focus on infinite combo options, Phyrexian Altar combos do make a lot of sense.
@ ISBP, wel yeah Ezuri is kinda the only real Elves commander that works with pure elves more so than just goodstuff, as you said I agree that Edric is overall better with just the best beaters for their cost... Although he can work in elves quite nicely as wel.. A buddy in my playgroup plays Rashmi as his Elves commander. Also not really great for elves specific, but the deck works quite wel.
Ezuri is a really strong commander and a really strong Elves deck I can say though, have played that for quite a while (a few years ago), but elves definitely could use something new/fresh... I thought that maybe Leovold might be nice for a 3 color elves deck, but it was also not really great as elves compared to more a control deck.
Am working on making a new Menfolk deck, due to the new sets and all the green merfolk, giving more options. Might remake my Vampire deck with the new set also, I took it apart for a bit.. It got a bit boring for me after having played it for quite a while.. I tend to change decks quite often though..
I do love the direction and options we are getting for vampires.
I used to play Ezuri way back. Its a fun commander but I still found it kind of hit or miss in a lot of situations. I would rather see something with some card advantage to it which is why I would have liked Edric if he was not so damn busted.
I briefly looked at merfolk but I was not convinced that they had any many commander options. The new UG legend suffers from the fact that there is almost no token production in UG and most fish are actually not very good in commander. Edgar Markov is really an oddity in that he brings vampires together in a way that is meaningful enouugh to pull off in commander and I am not convinced that the UG legend adds enough to make fish viable in commander.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
How do you deal with wrath effects? I mean ya you can re-flood but any thing else? being an edric player it has always been super important.
I primarily rely on refilling my hand to rebuild a board. If you are low on cards in hand you can also rely on Edgar Markov as a play that is decent as well (especially when nobody has anything on board). I considered trying to hold up defensive measures like say Boros Charm but I felt that it slowed me down too much. Its also possible to play recovery effects like Yawgmoth's Will if you run into too many answers but it so far has not been something that has made enough sense to me yet because I don't encounter enough wraths to find a wrath recovery card to be relevant enough.
I don't worry too much about an occasional wrath. If you are in a meta that people are running a higher count of wraths it can make more sense to try to protect or recovery but I have found all of these cards to be more situational than just jamming a ton of draw and keep moving my hand.
It is also possible to keep a backup card or two for post wrath. I often hold on to a backup draw effect even if I have something like Necropotence in play I want to know where my next draw is going to come from. You could theoretically hold a midrange cost vampire in hand as a recovery plan rather than pushing everything to play. I tend to put a lot of emphasis on turning my hand over as much as possible so I don't often worry about what is in my hand so long as I have draw somewhere.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Yawgmoth's Will is busted after a wrath. You recover your vampires and since you're casting you're also triggering Edgar Markov. You're pretty much recovering your board state.
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Speaking of Wraths/Wrath protection-have you tried Living Death yet? It's a fairly low to curve "board-wipe" that can also help you recover your lost Vamps simultaneously.
More than likely that does make them weaker over, they are a bit on the situational side I would personally say.. A reason why Living Death, etc are mostly not used... overall this deck is all in aggro lets say... it's win or die.. and it has plenty ways to fill hands to get back if built right..
Overall having played Edgar for a while I have found that it can aggro really wel and it can even get back from wrath's if not to many.. (3/4 board whipes definitely can devastate, but then again so can it devastate most any deck..)
Having cards that slow your main strategy are not great, having to hold them for when the moment arises to use them..
- About Elves, I have had plenty succes with Elves personally I would say, it might actually be faster/stronger than Edgar if built right.. specialy if you do have blue as a secondary color.. makes you able to counter if needed... Though mostly I have played it as mono green Ezuri.. the deck had quite a few cards to get back from wrath's also.. (which does make the overall deck slower, but with all the mana elves still it's quite fast enough)..
I have mostly not played any other tribal in a while, among which Elves is either I don't have the cards to build it good enough to make a chance to win or have fun with it.. (have a few cards coming in and might make goblins or merfolk.. to try something fresh tribal for myself).. Elves gets boring quite fast.. Mana dork, mana dork.. Ezuri, pump lords.. swing for the win.. or if not cast Craterhoof, swing for the win.. that is mostly what it does... although can go more combo oriented, but it feels quite cheap winning through combo with elves...
Probably gonna build a black/red goblins deck next.. (somewhat similar to Edgar in a way, though the overall strategy/playstyle is not the exact same..) ^^
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I am gonna buy some boosters from the next set, looking to get a few of the more expensive cards from the set, might rebuild Edgar if I get some of those cards... I like rebuilding decks after having played a few different ones in between.. (I get bored off playing the same deck to much, quite easily.. :P)
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Sorry for the story and going a bit off-track there, but goodluck ISBP, I hope the new additions wil work out nicely.. I am fairly sure they wil add more power to the deck... ^^
I am of similar mind on the recovery from wrath effects. They are situational and can fill your hand up with cards that are very reactive. Its why I also keep my answers kind of low because other than something that literally says that my gameplan will not work I would rather continue with my gameplan than try to disrupt an opponents gameplan with this deck. This deck is so fast that we can usually out pace other gameplans which is why I keep mine fairly focused on plan A (kill them all) over trying to recover situationally or answer the things my opponents are doing.
Good luck with your next project (whatever that might be).
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
It encourages players to hold back and only play the card when you meet the requirement. Granted, I understand that in this deck it is not a problem but I still do not like it. I'm not sure I will include any of those cards.
Speaking of Wraths/Wrath protection-have you tried Living Death yet? It's a fairly low to curve "board-wipe" that can also help you recover your lost Vamps simultaneously.
Sorry I totally missed responding. So much activity these days that sometimes its quite a bit of work to respond to everything lol.
Living Death - it would be in close competition with Yawgmoth's Will offhand if I were to run some wrath recovery cards but I have just not found that I need wrath recovery plans enough for this deck. I would have to probably be eating 2-3 wraths by turn 5 before I would actually consider wrath recovery just given how the deck has been playing for me. I usually see something like 1 wrath by turn 7 as things stand right now and its just not enough that I find it to be something I need to be playing. Generally speaking I still prefer the one sided tricks that screw up my opponents but not myself in part because something like Living Death would not give me tokens back so I would still probably be down bodies from before I got wrathed with this effect.
Others - I would mostly say that the others you mentioned would be lesser tier options than Yawgmoth's Will / Living Death so I would probably not put much consideration into them until you test / want to be playing more than those two. I also looked at Dusk // Dawn early on but I found that it seemed mana intensive to get to the point where you could get the Dawn part of the card. Its possible that both effects of that card could be good but its also possible that you would just want to skip to the Dawn portion and it felt kind of clunky to me given that.
It encourages players to hold back and only play the card when you meet the requirement. Granted, I understand that in this deck it is not a problem but I still do not like it. I'm not sure I will include any of those cards.
We are kind of an all in deck though and Ascend can go active at any time that it is achieved not just when they would be cast. I think that given the cheap creatures that generate free tokens plus just dropping lands I sort of anticipate that the average turn in which we hit ascend will be somewhere between turns 3 and 5. Its a mechanic that in my mind is an attempt to give some power to formats like commander and limited where the game progresses a little slower and it gives additional power to some cards which might start off a little weaker but get a power boost later.
Personally I think its a good trade off to not over power fast standard / modern / legacy cards because that is a real concern. I think its a little early to give a lot of judgement on how the mechanic works but I do feel it is promising.
Why dont you use path to exile or swords? Promise of Power?
Whats about adding some stax cards in this? (winter orb, armagedon)?
Swords to Plowshares / Path to Exile - this deck wants to be as proactive as it possibly can so every answer we include in the list potentially slows us down or makes us a little more ractive. If someone has an Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite in play then sure, we need spot removal pronto but outside of cards that literally disable us from playing I have found that its better to stay proactive than try to go reactive. More reactive cards in the list will slow you down. If you play against lots of combo then you probably need the interaction to stop from losing but as long as your deck is the aggressor of the meta / game I would say you are far better not worrying about slowing down / answering your opponent and keep focusing on trying to zero their health total. This build is designed to red zone opponents and so long as you can be the most aggressive deck at the table, I would say that its not worth your time to try to answer and or disrupt your opponents. If someone is faster than you are on average then yes, you need to disrupt them somehow. My other problem with Swords to Plowshares / Path to Exile is the question of what if they play a problem card like say Moat and you are sitting on cheap spot removal for creatures. Its part of why I run light removal and I try to make it flexible when I can. You can always increase your tutors too if you have to as it can serve as draw, answers, or wincons.
Promise of Power - its slow but given this build has a low quality per card in that they are cheap drop creatures I would say I am more fond of it than I would be Sign in Blood. I am still not super fond of the cards that draw = their cost for this deck though because like I said you really need to draw a bunch of cards and do it repeatedly for a low mana cost whenever possible.
Stax / MLD - its an option and I did consider it. I think it would take a very different approach in general because LD and effects like winter orb are likely to not interact well with my current approach of drawing a shatload of cards. My current build I use all of my mana like literally every turn of the game if things are working for me. Screwing with lands would go in a very different direction that would probably require a different style of build. I decided that while that could work I wanted to just go fast and draw hard in part because such tactics are less frowned upon and in part because I wanted to see if it worked. I have no idea if such a build would be any better or worse than what I have right now but I have been happy with what I have been playing thus far. Stax can mean a lot of things and when it comes to like specifically Smokestack I think.... it could be ok but a little slow. If Braids, Cabal Minion was legal I probably would play her offhand because I think she would actually fit fairly well in this deck. Lots of what Stax can mean might be relating to things like Thalia, Guardian of Thraben or Kismet and that sort of thing I honestly dont really see working just given I don't think they have enough natural synergy with what we are doing to really work unless you get SUPER lucky and curve them and even then..... I just don't see it.
I'm more and more inclined to build Edgar's deck myself but making it straightforward aggro is not my cup of tea. I like to have options. For example an option of using cheap vampires and vampire tokens as sacrificial lambs (Vampire Sheep) for Voldaren Pariah, Westvale Abbey or even Demon of Death's Gate/Scourge of Nel Toth if ground forces face to many blockers.
Another option is doubling vampire tokens with Anointed Procession or using them as mana source with Carnival of Souls which surely leads to some kind of combo. Option to win by combo is always good.
What do you think?
I don't really know how building a non combo Ad Nausium aggro deck is somehow straightforward but to each their own.
I originally tried looking at kind of a goodstuff vampire approach to Edger and then sort of moved to a Purphoros, God of the Forge deck that was kind of based on moving as many bodies as I could rather than a vampire theme. In the end I ended up here after a few versions and playing it a little. Early on I tried playing Westvale Abbey and the only time I could ever see it being useful is if I was just completely out of plays and had all my mana up and someone went to wrath me. There was no situation in which utilizing that land was better than the 5 tribal bodies I generally had in play not to mention the issue that its so much mana I never had it up when I would have wanted to use it.
Honestly, as you start to be a little less tribal it starts being a little less rewarding to be playing Edgar Markov as your commander. At what point do you just move to a Teysa, Orzhov Scion or maybe even an Athreos, God of PassageShadowborn Apostle deck for better synergy?
Anointed Procession - it was too slow and it dropped in behind when we normally blew our load so it just felt bad. I played with it early on and even toyed with Possibility Storm which can similarly give you some extra tokens. In the end neither were great because they cost too much mana and are hard to justify as spending a turn's worth of mana on.
I'd been playing Edgar since the set came out, and have slowly dropped the curve, moving more in the direction you've been going, but a few of the pricier cards I don't have, and a few others I'm trying to get a handle on whether I should pull them out of other decks to run here, or not.
A few questions about actual play with the deck:
How often do you find yourself activating Vault of the Archangel?
Do you have a sense of how much mana you're activating Nykthos for, typically?
How often do you use Volrath's Stronghold? Trying to decide whether it's worth putting Phyrexian Reclamation in for a similar effect...
What card draw options would you recommend in place of Wheel of Fortune?
What would you replace Imperial Seal and Vampiric Tutor with?
Are you sac'ing creatures in order to draw cards off of Dark Prophecy/trigger Blood Artist/Zulaport, or are they largely incidental to combat and removal?
Do you level, and activate, Guul Draz Assassin often?
How important are the three mana rocks in the list?
Fast mana is going to speed you up. Being that this deck is a tempo deck it means playing out the hand faster which might mean also drawing cards and refilling faster too. Its always a little subjective because it relies a lot on having a hand worth tempo playing and having some draw to back it up. When the deck works REALLY well it tends to be off of the back of some sort of tempo ramp paired with unfair draw.
Take something like Necropotence or Wheel of Fortune into account for this. If you can empty your hand by turn 3 or 4 instead of by turn 5 or 6 it means that you end up drawing more cards sooner. In the case of wheel its much stronger to wheel as soon as you can because it will be more disruptive to your opponents that way.
When it comes to having a good landbase and or the tempo mana stones it comes down to speed. The faster you can do something the more explosive you can "potentially" be. I say this from the perspective that its not like you will draw them in an opening hand every time and you might also draw them when the rest of the hand is not ideal.
I'd been playing Edgar since the set came out, and have slowly dropped the curve, moving more in the direction you've been going, but a few of the pricier cards I don't have, and a few others I'm trying to get a handle on whether I should pull them out of other decks to run here, or not.
A few questions about actual play with the deck:
How often do you find yourself activating Vault of the Archangel?
Do you have a sense of how much mana you're activating Nykthos for, typically?
How often do you use Volrath's Stronghold? Trying to decide whether it's worth putting Phyrexian Reclamation in for a similar effect...
What card draw options would you recommend in place of Wheel of Fortune?
What would you replace Imperial Seal and Vampiric Tutor with?
Are you sac'ing creatures in order to draw cards off of Dark Prophecy/trigger Blood Artist/Zulaport, or are they largely incidental to combat and removal?
Do you level, and activate, Guul Draz Assassin often?
How often are you using Mirror Entity?
Vault of the Archangel - not very often. It tends to be used more when I am doing poorly or if someone is low but has quality blockers. I have been forced to use it while defending before in a situation that was not going well for me and in that case it was kind of strong but in general I would say its an effect that I find myself using a little less often. Its an expensive outlet for evasion essentially but its nice that it can totally **** up a good defense plan. Its a utility land that I have put consideration into cutting but every now and then I find the deathtouch to be kind of big. The lifegain seems to be less important but I suppose it could be a thing.
Nykthos - I have only drawn it a few times but the times I have seen it it seems like 3-6 mana is fairly common. I am not totally sold on it either but for now I am keeping it in my list until it proves to be a problem.
Volrath's Stronghold - I actually stopped running it. Its possible I could put it back in given a few new big vamps that could be kind of spicy but I can only think of maybe 5 creatures this deck would consider recurring offhand. Its kind of a questionable move to pay all the mana to put a random vampire lord on top or a one drop. Sure I would probably recur Champion of Dusk and Malakir Bloodwitch all day but I just didnt see enough bodies I was willing to spend the mana to try to recur. Given so few quality targets as well as if I am drawing well I also don't see this being very viable I decided to stop running it. If you want to give it a shot in place of Nykthos or Vault I think its probably fine as I don't really think its all that different in being a little niche.
Wheel of Fortune replacement - well.... Promise of Power could be ok I guess or you could play with one of several other maybe ok maybe questionable draw like say Vanquisher's Banner or Null Profusion. For the record I call those ones questionable because they cost a lot of mana and generate value over time after you play them and generally require staying in play for at least a few turns while also probably eating most of a turn casting them. The overall draw of the deck is also probably going up with the new set so its possible that with all the new draw based vamps you might just not need to worry about it and include another card that works for the deck rather than trying to find a direct replacement.
Vampiric Tutor / Imperial Seal - this one is going to be hard. Gamble could be a possibility and while I got a bit of push back from suggesting it I still think Tainted Pact maybe could work. You really want a low number of basic lands with Tainted Pact and if you split your basics 50/50 with snow basics you decrease issues too. I don't think I would consider the card a tutor but if you are just like after a type of card like removal or draw it might work out. Gamble is always going to be exactly that.... a gamble. I often tutor for Necropotence though and while I somewhat briefly had Gamble in my list, I only removed it after having aquired Imperial Seal for myself so I probably would be testing Gamble otherwise still. It is also possible to just cut those slots and not try to find a replacement and just find a card that is good for the deck as well.
Dark Prophecy / Blood Artist / Zulaport Cutthroat - So, my overall creature sac outlets are wayyyyyyyyy down. I don't normally really push sacing creatures for death value with this list but of those three I think Dark Prophecy is the one I would consider it the most. The other two would require someone to be fairly low health and need to be a kill priority of mine. Most of these effects I just assume I am going to lose some creatures as the game goes on and so they fit being that they are cheap effects that give me a lot of reward if and when I do get cleared. It is possible that I may have to reassess my inclusion of Zulaport Cutthroat at some point because my sacs have gone down a bit but for now he has had a fairly good track record as of right now.
Guul Draz Assassin - I haven't ever done it yet. I run it 95% just to be a black one drop vampire. If you are building on a budget just put any one drop vamp in. I happened to value it being black a little more than getting a 2/1 red creature for one mana so I sprung the money for it.
Mirror Entity - I would actually call it probably my least favorite anthem creature. I still run it but like I said.... I don't care much for it. Most of the time I don't cast it unless I don't have other things to do. I actually cant think of a game I have cast it yet so my answer would be I have never to my knowledge activated it lol. I can only think of once or twice that I have seen it though also and the one that comes to mind I believe I ditched it to a tempo mana stone.
Dark Prophecy seems to be the only wraith danger card. Has this ever been a problem for you?
It has not yet. Generally speaking most of my own life loss tends to be from my own effects because I try to push so fast with the vamps. When you pay 1 mana and get two blockers as kind of an every turn multiple occurrence thing that I try to do it also makes it hard for opponents to nicely attack into me if I care to stop it. It tends to be if I run out of steam or there is just a shatload of players that games get to the point where others migtht be attacking me and even then, I think this deck can chump block decently and especially if you get Dark Prophecy you can chump and draw so its not really been an issue for me yet. Sometimes I go a little heavy on the greed side of Necropotence and sometimes that one can add up fast lol (I can think of plenty of games where I eat 20 life in like 4 turns with necro)
did athreos never get there? the drain suite (blood artist, zulaport cutthroat, goblin bombardment) all seem pretty effective as anti-wrath value. being able to get any of those creatures back will be a tougher choice for opponents if they are already at a low life total.
did athreos never get there? the drain suite (blood artist, zulaport cutthroat, goblin bombardment) all seem pretty effective as anti-wrath value. being able to get any of those creatures back will be a tougher choice for opponents if they are already at a low life total.
Athreos wasnt bad, my issue was that his speed to impact the board was a little slow. He doesnt interact well with the tokens in the deck where as those other three do. He also has some vulnerability to graveyard hate which the others have less of an issue with. The type of wrath that is used can also screw with him.
Overall, I just felt that he was a little more expensive than the others you mentioned and was a little slower to generate value. If I had good card draw online he did essentially nothing because opponents could choose to give me those creatures back and I probably didn't have the time to mess with them if I was jamming through something like Necropotence. My sac oultlets keep going down as well which also makes him potentially a little weaker.
In the end, I had a LOT of new toys to try to make room for and I just wasn't convinced that Athreos was doing as much as the other two gods for me. I don't think its wrong to keep him in but when I looked at all of the new cards I was contemplating I went through my list and identified cards I felt could be cut and he was on the list. He also is potentially some sort of card draw effect and a lot of the new vamps are also draw effects which makes me feel like the change is probably ok for me.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
How about legendary vampire, Ascendant Evincar? He kills five of your vamps (of which only Mirror Entity matters) but pumps all the other (tokens included) and hates most of the mana dorks and hatebears opponents use. I run it with great success in control and he can be even better here.
I might cut Mirror Entity sometime soon but I don't think it would be to include a six drop. Ascendant Evincar is way too slow to play with not enough impact. It costs the same as the commander does to cast and in my opinion does less so I would probably go for casting Edgar Markov over him in most situations.
Thoughts on changing spells besides like crib swap or nameless inversion?
Any what are some substitutes for the pricier cards like Bob or seal?
Crib Swap / Nameless Inversion - mostly I don't run them because I am trying to be a proactive deck and honestly they are not very good answers. Leaving a token behind with Crib Swap can be almost as annoying as them having any blocker so the fact that it doesn't remove the blocker is not something I like. Nameless is cool, I just think its really situational and in general I think you want to be running Haakon, Stromgald Scourge for it to be decent. Its cool that these cards generate a vampire but as far as answers go I consider them bad enough that its not worth having bad removal that generates a token in my opinion.
Replacements for Seal - I would probably say Gamble offhand. I included it in my list before I got my seal but cut it after acquiring my seal. I didn't really get a chance to test it but offhand its probably where I would go.
Replacements for Bob - this one is a bit harder to answer because its hard to say if there is a nice replacement. You could run Stoneforge Mystic as a tutor for skullclamp potentially. I cut stoneforge but I think if I had figured out another equipment that I liked I might have kept it. If I were to toy with another equipment offhand it might have been Umezawa's Jitte.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Thoughts on changing spells besides like crib swap or nameless inversion?
Any what are some substitutes for the pricier cards like Bob or seal?
If you're fine with spending 1 more and have it not be a creature (which is sometimes a bonus because creatures are the easiest card type to get rid of) you can use Dark Tutelage as a substitute for Bob.
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If you're fine with spending 1 more and have it not be a creature (which is sometimes a bonus because creatures are the easiest card type to get rid of) you can use Dark Tutelage as a substitute for Bob.
I would run Phyrexian Arena over Dark Tutelage unless you can get your average draw be less than 1 mana. I haven't checked what my average draw is since my last change but it used to be something like 1.36 and I think it went up with the new vamp adds.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
If you're fine with spending 1 more and have it not be a creature (which is sometimes a bonus because creatures are the easiest card type to get rid of) you can use Dark Tutelage as a substitute for Bob.
I would run Phyrexian Arena over Dark Tutelage unless you can get your average draw be less than 1 mana. I haven't checked what my average draw is since my last change but it used to be something like 1.36 and I think it went up with the new vamp adds.
Yes, that's true. In effect Phyrexian Arena could be better than Dark Tutelage, but I was going for a strict substitute to Bob. However, in a three-colored deck filled with low-costed spells, it'd be harder to cast Phyrexian Arena turn 3 than it would Dark Tutelage.
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It has the problem that it gives a lot of options to opponents. If you are up against a token based deck it can be rough because they are already hard to attack with a swarm of vamps. You generally have to rely on getting buffs and then they still can chump block you decently or double block your creatures to get trades still. Harsh Mercy against a token deck would not do well. Then if you get a control or voltron deck they are probably dealing with like one thing at a time so again you are not removing them.
My issue with Harsh Mercy is that there are just too few situations that it is going to meaningfully affect the board. You need to be playing against an aggro deck that uses a lot of different style of creatures for it to work and I just think the types of decks that it works against are too narrow. Whenever possible its better to remove opponents input when it comes to removal effects.
Shared Animosity - I got it in my hand a few times and I could never justify casting it. Its a card that requires you to have a big swarm of creatures and your opponents to not have any. Even if its a big buff you at best try to kill a single opponent because you cant really spread the attack out or you literally engage every single blocker at the same time. Its possible if you see yourself sacrificing some vamps and trying to kill a player at a time its maybe ok. I just found it reliant on too many maybies for me. I got it in hand a few times and never cast it because I could never justify it over other actions / options I had.
In the Web of War - it costs too much and its not going to help the creatures that came before it. Its important to consider cards that are more expensive that benefit off of what we have already done vs what we will do next in a deck like this. Bloodlord of Vaasgoth is a good example of a card I used to play very early on but I ended up cutting him because he was high on my curve and did not benefit anything I had done before him. Sure, if given time there is tons of value behind him but he was expensive on the curve and I probably already blew my load getting other creatures into play before him. In this sense I try very hard for anything that costs essentially 3+ mana to look at what I have already done instead of what I am going to do next.
Yea that is more or less my thoughts.
Krenko is a little more linear though too. I say this from the perspective that you can roughly guess where and what he will be doing the next turn. I think he has more potential to be explosive but he also gives a target to remove that will screw up a lot of plans and he is slower to rebuild. (I primarily am talking about the non combo krenko builds). I think Krenko probably goes bigger than us faster if you were strictly counting the amount of time to kill everyone but I think he is also a lot worse vs interaction from opponents.
Elves - honestly I haven't seen a very good elf deck in commander in some time. I think Ezuri, Renegade Leader is cool but honestly I kind of wish we would see elves back again because they could use another variation of legendary creature for some variance in build options. I have heard of some who take Edric, Spymaster of Trest and make a tribal deck out of him but I don't really see the reason to ever go tribal with Edric instead of just making the fastest most broken deck you can (which is not elf tribal).
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I think the biggest concern is just the amount of time and mana it eats up. I think if you want to build a dedicated combo deck it can work out but as far as like what it does outside of combo I am not very impressed. The 3 mana to cast it takes kind of a lot to recover and pass. Outside of the combo it means sacirifcing like 5+ creatures to recover the mana you spent and generate much of anything which I dont think is in line with what the deck naturally wants to do.
Zervintz had an interesting list here which used Haakon, Stromgald Scourge, Bold Impaler, and Phyrexian Altar to do an infinite loop as well. I think its possible that you could add to this same combo option as both of them use the Altar overlap. I am just not sold on the altar without trying to focus on infinite combo and that is not my own goal for the deck which is why I don't think its very useful to me. I do think that if you want to put a focus on infinite combo options, Phyrexian Altar combos do make a lot of sense.
Elenda, the Dusk Rose could also be an infinite combo option utilizing Nim Deathmantle / Corpse Dance with the altar. You could use Ashnod's Altar with the Deathmantle too.
I used to play Ezuri way back. Its a fun commander but I still found it kind of hit or miss in a lot of situations. I would rather see something with some card advantage to it which is why I would have liked Edric if he was not so damn busted.
I briefly looked at merfolk but I was not convinced that they had any many commander options. The new UG legend suffers from the fact that there is almost no token production in UG and most fish are actually not very good in commander. Edgar Markov is really an oddity in that he brings vampires together in a way that is meaningful enouugh to pull off in commander and I am not convinced that the UG legend adds enough to make fish viable in commander.
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I primarily rely on refilling my hand to rebuild a board. If you are low on cards in hand you can also rely on Edgar Markov as a play that is decent as well (especially when nobody has anything on board). I considered trying to hold up defensive measures like say Boros Charm but I felt that it slowed me down too much. Its also possible to play recovery effects like Yawgmoth's Will if you run into too many answers but it so far has not been something that has made enough sense to me yet because I don't encounter enough wraths to find a wrath recovery card to be relevant enough.
I don't worry too much about an occasional wrath. If you are in a meta that people are running a higher count of wraths it can make more sense to try to protect or recovery but I have found all of these cards to be more situational than just jamming a ton of draw and keep moving my hand.
It is also possible to keep a backup card or two for post wrath. I often hold on to a backup draw effect even if I have something like Necropotence in play I want to know where my next draw is going to come from. You could theoretically hold a midrange cost vampire in hand as a recovery plan rather than pushing everything to play. I tend to put a lot of emphasis on turning my hand over as much as possible so I don't often worry about what is in my hand so long as I have draw somewhere.
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Other "similar" effects that may help you keep going after a wipe without holding up mana: Driver of the Dead, Immortal Servitude, Proclamation of Rebirth, and/or Return to the Ranks. Are these not considered because they do not trigger Edgar as Yawgmoth's Will would? Does that make them substantially worse?
I am of similar mind on the recovery from wrath effects. They are situational and can fill your hand up with cards that are very reactive. Its why I also keep my answers kind of low because other than something that literally says that my gameplan will not work I would rather continue with my gameplan than try to disrupt an opponents gameplan with this deck. This deck is so fast that we can usually out pace other gameplans which is why I keep mine fairly focused on plan A (kill them all) over trying to recover situationally or answer the things my opponents are doing.
Good luck with your next project (whatever that might be).
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I do not like the Ascend mechanic.
Here's why:
It encourages players to hold back and only play the card when you meet the requirement. Granted, I understand that in this deck it is not a problem but I still do not like it. I'm not sure I will include any of those cards.
Whats about adding some stax cards in this? (winter orb, armagedon)?
Sorry I totally missed responding. So much activity these days that sometimes its quite a bit of work to respond to everything lol.
Living Death - it would be in close competition with Yawgmoth's Will offhand if I were to run some wrath recovery cards but I have just not found that I need wrath recovery plans enough for this deck. I would have to probably be eating 2-3 wraths by turn 5 before I would actually consider wrath recovery just given how the deck has been playing for me. I usually see something like 1 wrath by turn 7 as things stand right now and its just not enough that I find it to be something I need to be playing. Generally speaking I still prefer the one sided tricks that screw up my opponents but not myself in part because something like Living Death would not give me tokens back so I would still probably be down bodies from before I got wrathed with this effect.
Others - I would mostly say that the others you mentioned would be lesser tier options than Yawgmoth's Will / Living Death so I would probably not put much consideration into them until you test / want to be playing more than those two. I also looked at Dusk // Dawn early on but I found that it seemed mana intensive to get to the point where you could get the Dawn part of the card. Its possible that both effects of that card could be good but its also possible that you would just want to skip to the Dawn portion and it felt kind of clunky to me given that.
We are kind of an all in deck though and Ascend can go active at any time that it is achieved not just when they would be cast. I think that given the cheap creatures that generate free tokens plus just dropping lands I sort of anticipate that the average turn in which we hit ascend will be somewhere between turns 3 and 5. Its a mechanic that in my mind is an attempt to give some power to formats like commander and limited where the game progresses a little slower and it gives additional power to some cards which might start off a little weaker but get a power boost later.
Personally I think its a good trade off to not over power fast standard / modern / legacy cards because that is a real concern. I think its a little early to give a lot of judgement on how the mechanic works but I do feel it is promising.
Swords to Plowshares / Path to Exile - this deck wants to be as proactive as it possibly can so every answer we include in the list potentially slows us down or makes us a little more ractive. If someone has an Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite in play then sure, we need spot removal pronto but outside of cards that literally disable us from playing I have found that its better to stay proactive than try to go reactive. More reactive cards in the list will slow you down. If you play against lots of combo then you probably need the interaction to stop from losing but as long as your deck is the aggressor of the meta / game I would say you are far better not worrying about slowing down / answering your opponent and keep focusing on trying to zero their health total. This build is designed to red zone opponents and so long as you can be the most aggressive deck at the table, I would say that its not worth your time to try to answer and or disrupt your opponents. If someone is faster than you are on average then yes, you need to disrupt them somehow. My other problem with Swords to Plowshares / Path to Exile is the question of what if they play a problem card like say Moat and you are sitting on cheap spot removal for creatures. Its part of why I run light removal and I try to make it flexible when I can. You can always increase your tutors too if you have to as it can serve as draw, answers, or wincons.
Promise of Power - its slow but given this build has a low quality per card in that they are cheap drop creatures I would say I am more fond of it than I would be Sign in Blood. I am still not super fond of the cards that draw = their cost for this deck though because like I said you really need to draw a bunch of cards and do it repeatedly for a low mana cost whenever possible.
Stax / MLD - its an option and I did consider it. I think it would take a very different approach in general because LD and effects like winter orb are likely to not interact well with my current approach of drawing a shatload of cards. My current build I use all of my mana like literally every turn of the game if things are working for me. Screwing with lands would go in a very different direction that would probably require a different style of build. I decided that while that could work I wanted to just go fast and draw hard in part because such tactics are less frowned upon and in part because I wanted to see if it worked. I have no idea if such a build would be any better or worse than what I have right now but I have been happy with what I have been playing thus far. Stax can mean a lot of things and when it comes to like specifically Smokestack I think.... it could be ok but a little slow. If Braids, Cabal Minion was legal I probably would play her offhand because I think she would actually fit fairly well in this deck. Lots of what Stax can mean might be relating to things like Thalia, Guardian of Thraben or Kismet and that sort of thing I honestly dont really see working just given I don't think they have enough natural synergy with what we are doing to really work unless you get SUPER lucky and curve them and even then..... I just don't see it.
I don't really know how building a non combo Ad Nausium aggro deck is somehow straightforward but to each their own.
I originally tried looking at kind of a goodstuff vampire approach to Edger and then sort of moved to a Purphoros, God of the Forge deck that was kind of based on moving as many bodies as I could rather than a vampire theme. In the end I ended up here after a few versions and playing it a little. Early on I tried playing Westvale Abbey and the only time I could ever see it being useful is if I was just completely out of plays and had all my mana up and someone went to wrath me. There was no situation in which utilizing that land was better than the 5 tribal bodies I generally had in play not to mention the issue that its so much mana I never had it up when I would have wanted to use it.
Honestly, as you start to be a little less tribal it starts being a little less rewarding to be playing Edgar Markov as your commander. At what point do you just move to a Teysa, Orzhov Scion or maybe even an Athreos, God of Passage Shadowborn Apostle deck for better synergy?
Anointed Procession - it was too slow and it dropped in behind when we normally blew our load so it just felt bad. I played with it early on and even toyed with Possibility Storm which can similarly give you some extra tokens. In the end neither were great because they cost too much mana and are hard to justify as spending a turn's worth of mana on.
COMBO - its not something I generally play but most of the combo I have seen that might be potential for vamps involve Ashnod's Altar or Phyrexian Altar. You can use Phyrexian Altar with Haakon, Stromgald Scourge + Bold Impaler to generate infinite mana / vampire tokens. You could also use some tactics like Elenda, the Dusk Rose + Ashnod's Altar + Nim Deathmantle to generate infinite tokens. In the end, I am not really a combo player so I dont go into that stuff but there are a few tricks and things you could do.
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A few questions about actual play with the deck:
Fast mana is going to speed you up. Being that this deck is a tempo deck it means playing out the hand faster which might mean also drawing cards and refilling faster too. Its always a little subjective because it relies a lot on having a hand worth tempo playing and having some draw to back it up. When the deck works REALLY well it tends to be off of the back of some sort of tempo ramp paired with unfair draw.
Take something like Necropotence or Wheel of Fortune into account for this. If you can empty your hand by turn 3 or 4 instead of by turn 5 or 6 it means that you end up drawing more cards sooner. In the case of wheel its much stronger to wheel as soon as you can because it will be more disruptive to your opponents that way.
When it comes to having a good landbase and or the tempo mana stones it comes down to speed. The faster you can do something the more explosive you can "potentially" be. I say this from the perspective that its not like you will draw them in an opening hand every time and you might also draw them when the rest of the hand is not ideal.
Vault of the Archangel - not very often. It tends to be used more when I am doing poorly or if someone is low but has quality blockers. I have been forced to use it while defending before in a situation that was not going well for me and in that case it was kind of strong but in general I would say its an effect that I find myself using a little less often. Its an expensive outlet for evasion essentially but its nice that it can totally **** up a good defense plan. Its a utility land that I have put consideration into cutting but every now and then I find the deathtouch to be kind of big. The lifegain seems to be less important but I suppose it could be a thing.
Nykthos - I have only drawn it a few times but the times I have seen it it seems like 3-6 mana is fairly common. I am not totally sold on it either but for now I am keeping it in my list until it proves to be a problem.
Volrath's Stronghold - I actually stopped running it. Its possible I could put it back in given a few new big vamps that could be kind of spicy but I can only think of maybe 5 creatures this deck would consider recurring offhand. Its kind of a questionable move to pay all the mana to put a random vampire lord on top or a one drop. Sure I would probably recur Champion of Dusk and Malakir Bloodwitch all day but I just didnt see enough bodies I was willing to spend the mana to try to recur. Given so few quality targets as well as if I am drawing well I also don't see this being very viable I decided to stop running it. If you want to give it a shot in place of Nykthos or Vault I think its probably fine as I don't really think its all that different in being a little niche.
Wheel of Fortune replacement - well.... Promise of Power could be ok I guess or you could play with one of several other maybe ok maybe questionable draw like say Vanquisher's Banner or Null Profusion. For the record I call those ones questionable because they cost a lot of mana and generate value over time after you play them and generally require staying in play for at least a few turns while also probably eating most of a turn casting them. The overall draw of the deck is also probably going up with the new set so its possible that with all the new draw based vamps you might just not need to worry about it and include another card that works for the deck rather than trying to find a direct replacement.
Vampiric Tutor / Imperial Seal - this one is going to be hard. Gamble could be a possibility and while I got a bit of push back from suggesting it I still think Tainted Pact maybe could work. You really want a low number of basic lands with Tainted Pact and if you split your basics 50/50 with snow basics you decrease issues too. I don't think I would consider the card a tutor but if you are just like after a type of card like removal or draw it might work out. Gamble is always going to be exactly that.... a gamble. I often tutor for Necropotence though and while I somewhat briefly had Gamble in my list, I only removed it after having aquired Imperial Seal for myself so I probably would be testing Gamble otherwise still. It is also possible to just cut those slots and not try to find a replacement and just find a card that is good for the deck as well.
Dark Prophecy / Blood Artist / Zulaport Cutthroat - So, my overall creature sac outlets are wayyyyyyyyy down. I don't normally really push sacing creatures for death value with this list but of those three I think Dark Prophecy is the one I would consider it the most. The other two would require someone to be fairly low health and need to be a kill priority of mine. Most of these effects I just assume I am going to lose some creatures as the game goes on and so they fit being that they are cheap effects that give me a lot of reward if and when I do get cleared. It is possible that I may have to reassess my inclusion of Zulaport Cutthroat at some point because my sacs have gone down a bit but for now he has had a fairly good track record as of right now.
Guul Draz Assassin - I haven't ever done it yet. I run it 95% just to be a black one drop vampire. If you are building on a budget just put any one drop vamp in. I happened to value it being black a little more than getting a 2/1 red creature for one mana so I sprung the money for it.
Mirror Entity - I would actually call it probably my least favorite anthem creature. I still run it but like I said.... I don't care much for it. Most of the time I don't cast it unless I don't have other things to do. I actually cant think of a game I have cast it yet so my answer would be I have never to my knowledge activated it lol. I can only think of once or twice that I have seen it though also and the one that comes to mind I believe I ditched it to a tempo mana stone.
It has not yet. Generally speaking most of my own life loss tends to be from my own effects because I try to push so fast with the vamps. When you pay 1 mana and get two blockers as kind of an every turn multiple occurrence thing that I try to do it also makes it hard for opponents to nicely attack into me if I care to stop it. It tends to be if I run out of steam or there is just a shatload of players that games get to the point where others migtht be attacking me and even then, I think this deck can chump block decently and especially if you get Dark Prophecy you can chump and draw so its not really been an issue for me yet. Sometimes I go a little heavy on the greed side of Necropotence and sometimes that one can add up fast lol (I can think of plenty of games where I eat 20 life in like 4 turns with necro)
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Athreos wasnt bad, my issue was that his speed to impact the board was a little slow. He doesnt interact well with the tokens in the deck where as those other three do. He also has some vulnerability to graveyard hate which the others have less of an issue with. The type of wrath that is used can also screw with him.
Overall, I just felt that he was a little more expensive than the others you mentioned and was a little slower to generate value. If I had good card draw online he did essentially nothing because opponents could choose to give me those creatures back and I probably didn't have the time to mess with them if I was jamming through something like Necropotence. My sac oultlets keep going down as well which also makes him potentially a little weaker.
In the end, I had a LOT of new toys to try to make room for and I just wasn't convinced that Athreos was doing as much as the other two gods for me. I don't think its wrong to keep him in but when I looked at all of the new cards I was contemplating I went through my list and identified cards I felt could be cut and he was on the list. He also is potentially some sort of card draw effect and a lot of the new vamps are also draw effects which makes me feel like the change is probably ok for me.
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Any what are some substitutes for the pricier cards like Bob or seal?
I might cut Mirror Entity sometime soon but I don't think it would be to include a six drop. Ascendant Evincar is way too slow to play with not enough impact. It costs the same as the commander does to cast and in my opinion does less so I would probably go for casting Edgar Markov over him in most situations.
Crib Swap / Nameless Inversion - mostly I don't run them because I am trying to be a proactive deck and honestly they are not very good answers. Leaving a token behind with Crib Swap can be almost as annoying as them having any blocker so the fact that it doesn't remove the blocker is not something I like. Nameless is cool, I just think its really situational and in general I think you want to be running Haakon, Stromgald Scourge for it to be decent. Its cool that these cards generate a vampire but as far as answers go I consider them bad enough that its not worth having bad removal that generates a token in my opinion.
Replacements for Seal - I would probably say Gamble offhand. I included it in my list before I got my seal but cut it after acquiring my seal. I didn't really get a chance to test it but offhand its probably where I would go.
Replacements for Bob - this one is a bit harder to answer because its hard to say if there is a nice replacement. You could run Stoneforge Mystic as a tutor for skullclamp potentially. I cut stoneforge but I think if I had figured out another equipment that I liked I might have kept it. If I were to toy with another equipment offhand it might have been Umezawa's Jitte.
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If you're fine with spending 1 more and have it not be a creature (which is sometimes a bonus because creatures are the easiest card type to get rid of) you can use Dark Tutelage as a substitute for Bob.
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I would run Phyrexian Arena over Dark Tutelage unless you can get your average draw be less than 1 mana. I haven't checked what my average draw is since my last change but it used to be something like 1.36 and I think it went up with the new vamp adds.
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Yes, that's true. In effect Phyrexian Arena could be better than Dark Tutelage, but I was going for a strict substitute to Bob. However, in a three-colored deck filled with low-costed spells, it'd be harder to cast Phyrexian Arena turn 3 than it would Dark Tutelage.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!