Despite this being, by all accounts, the strongest 'out of the box' precon released this year, I really only picked it up as my wife and I got all 4 and she wanted cats and wizards. Having said this, I enjoy playing the deck. It works well enough, and while I had no plans to build around any of the cards here, I now have them and enjoyed playing the deck, so I've decided to keep it around.
The initial temptation for Edgar is to slam a whole lot of big splashy vampires in here. From playtesting, this is far from optimal. Edgar works best with the smallest vampires you can find, and if you can churn out a whole hand's worth early, you can put a lot of pressure on the table and really make the most of a really efficient ability. It means that adding to this list needs very specific cards; we want one drops, we want very strong and efficient draw options, and IF we want recursion at all, we want it to come back to hand for a bargain basement outlay.
The shell of the deck has taken a while to upgrade - a lot of these cards are the epitome of jank in any other context and can be hard to dig out. Regardless, there's still places to improve here. Fast mana and colour fixing with fetches, efficient rocks, more iterations of efficient draw would all be really handy. The only issue I have with this is that thus far this deck is reasonably budget - making these changes would immediately balloon the price of this deck. Maybe in the future, but not now.
Had a playtest last night and made some observations and changes accordingly. This deck hits the ground running FAST, and gets big quickly with remarkable resilience. The problem I'm having at the moment is draw. Come turn 6-7 I'm topdecking, and that's not good enough. I can't be out of gas by then. Also, picked up some bits and pieces from Ixalan prerelease.
The market has never been all that great, and VR is cheap draw and sac. The two legendary vamp adds should be solid, Yahenni protecting herself straight away and Olivia hitting some aggro and madness points with her discard trigger.
I also felt that Cathar's Crusade and Door of Destinies came down too late, ate up a whole turns mana, and that I ran out of gas to exploit these cards.
Also, look into Reconnaissance. It's crazy good in this deck... to the point it's my #1 tutor target.
In my experience with this commander, I've needed card draw bad. I run Necropotence, Greed, Herald's Horn, and Phyrexian Arena in addition to what you have.
Definitely agree with this assessment. Skullclamp has been a godsend whenever drawn, likewise with Well of Lost Dreams. I'd agree with all of these bar Necropotence - partly because I don't have a spare, partly because BBB isn't easy, and partly because it doesn't interact all that well with the discard some of the cards in here like. Nevertheless, yes, card draw is absolutely fundamental for Edgar.
Cathar's Crusade I've yet to draw into it to be honest. That being said it's remarkably similar to Edgar's attack ability so it probably isn't crucial. Door of Destinies is nuts when I've played it, really happy with it being here. It's already an aggro deck, the Door makes your threats must answer.
Reconaissance is tech I don't own but would love copies of. I'm assuming the primary use is to remove Edgar from combat and still get his trigger?
Reconnaissance allows you to untap before or after blockers are declared to get attack triggers and avoid unfavorable blocks, after first strike damage is dealt but before normal damage to get counters from Drana to the whole team (obvoiusly good with Stromkirk Captain), or even after normal combat damage dealt (considered an 'attacking creature all the way to the end of the end of combat step)' and the creature still dealt the damage. Makes for a nice hyper aggressive 'attack with everything have everything to block with still for pseudo vigilance.
Or the short answer is... it allows you untap each attacking creature you control whenever it's the most beneficial anytime during combat on your turn.
Giving the madness mechanic a reasonable punt, could be fairly explosive. Nahiri and HH are to smooth out draw, and replace CC which was a little win-moreish, WOLD is a little redundant here now, and BT is a bit expensive.
I would NOT include Necropotence, its anti-tech for discarding vampires, cause they wil get removed, making some of your vampires less good...
Rather I would go for card draw from Dark Confidant, Dark Prophecy is a beast as wel in this deck... all the 2 mana draw spells are great as wel.. Phyrexian Arena is another great option otherwise..
Some of the high end vampires are also not that great.. and I would push more towards aggro in that regard.. Upping the amount of vampires to 30+ can also strongly help, the more vampires the more stable your amount of drawing them and making it hard for the opponent to stop the deck..
Again, I agree regarding the number of vampires. The high end vampires...could you be more specific? I feel like most of the creatures here do a reasonable job of justifying their place.
Don't know why you took out Bloodlord of Vaasgoth it's actually one of the better high ends imo... also in another thread someone pointed out to add Purphoros, god of the Forge, which might be a great inclusion... 2 damage per creature coming in play, every vamp you play does 4 damage to all opponents.. ^^
Bloodline Keeper is pretty much a must include I would say, though he has become a bit expensive..
Asylum Visitor is also quite good...
Vampire Hexmage - sometimes is good vs planes walkers, etc... but even outside that, she has first strike... ^^
Olivia's Bloodsworn - flying can help sometimes..
Shadow Alley Denizen - can make some of your creatures pretty much unblock able..
Shared Animosity is also pretty much OP, makes all your creatures huge fast... Also Coat of Arms is a beast... that thing has made my army of vamps pretty much unstoppable a few times when I drew it...
I'd LOVE a copy of Shared Animosity, that thing is nuts. I know it's being reprinted in Explorers of Ixalan, hopefully my LGS will break a pack up. Between Coat of Arms and Door of Destinies I definitely prefer the door, simply because it's asymmetrical.
This definitely helps, I agree with the rush down tactic. This deck should hit hard and early. Regarding mana rocks, the signets I like to fix colour, so they'll probably stay. The StriRes and Worn Powerstone I could lose, same as the Blade, which is sort of win-more. That opens up a space for 2-3 more vamps.
Example of cards that can be taken out that don't add to the overall strategy (wel enough) or imo are not worth their inclusion, do take in mind this is my opinion:
Vein Drinker - to overcosted for what it does, can be good at some times, but slows down the deck way to much imo...
Necropolis Regent - a lot better than Vein Drinker, but still quite slow, though once this does hit it wil make things a threat if they hit, but overall there are better pump options...
Patron of the Vein - also really high end, lowering the curve overall wil do the deck better I personally feel... I cut all of these out of my deck and was happy to do so, a lot of times they are competing with Edgar for being cast if you do get 6 mana... the destruction might be helpful I guess.. but I don't think it's overall worth the mana investment..
Reverberate and Wild Ricochet - not really something that this deck wants to work with imo... have you keep mana open to make them work, while you wanna make a board presence... so overall makes no sense to add those.. I would remove them and add more vampires..
Vampiric Rites - also a card that makes you keep mana open, in my playing I found this really lackluster...
Damnable Pact - really slow draw... upside for late game is there I guess, but early in the game a 2 mana draw would be overall better..
Kindred Charge - another unneeded card imo... might be fun to do late game, if you have board presence and can with this maybe kill multiple players, but overall Vampires should have already killed probably at least 1 person before you even get to the mana.. It's imo mostly a win more card.. but might be mistaken and it might push a win sometimes.. To me just feels a bit narrow the moments it would be worth playing..
I'm mostly in agreeance here.
I like Necropolis Regent as a 2IC to Edgar, but it is high on the curve. Patron of the Vein I mostly carry to combat reanimator strategies. I've found it fairly good. The red redirect cards could definitely go, most probably in favour of more draw. Vampiric Rites...yeah I get it. It's a reasonably good sac/draw outlet, but it's not perfect. I'd prefer other draw outlets, but I don't have a lot sitting around in my folder at present. Damnable Pact is expensive. It's next on the block to go. Kindred Charge, as fun as it is, is pretty win more and rather unnecessary.
Some suggested cards to add, that might push your aggro strategy a bit more:
Drana, Liberator of Malakir - another "pump lord" most of the times this can push the damage.. ^^
Tithe Drinker - Has lifelink and has an additional way of syphoning life (if you have white/black mana to spare)
Kalastria Highborn - makes blocking your creatures pretty much a nightmare..
Olivia's Bloodsworn - flying and possible option to give something haste..
Duskborne Skymarcher - this card has pushed some wins in for me.. didn't expect it to... ^^
Pulse Tracker - it's a weaker version of Conquistador but still really good imo...
Some of these I have and some I don't. Kalastria Highborn would be really nice. I need a copy. Drana, Liberator of Malakir would quite likely be a good replacement for Necropolis Regent. Tithe Drinker is already in here.
[c]Olivia's Bloodsworn[c/]...I'm hesitant about. The haste is great, but not being able to block is iffy. That being said, he doesn't tap to use that ability, so it gets me out of the blocks pretty quick.
I really wouldn't expect much from Duskborne Skymarcher either. I guess altering combat math is nice.
Other considerations:
I've looked at Stromkirk Occultist as red's version of draw. Could be fun, and with the pump this deck can give, the trample, and the fact that it comes down early it could be good. Paladin of the Bloodstained does nothing super special, but in this deck it does give me 3 bodies for 4 mana which is not nothing. I've toyed with giving it a go, but haven't taken the plunge yet.
Oh yeah, totally forgot to say Stromkirk Occultist, figured I had already mentioned it... there is definitely some upside on that one... Also works nice with some of the discard themes that Vampires can use... Mostly Stromkirk Condemned is awesome for that... Grin
I definitely get your opinion, and yeah I guess having some 'destruction' on a stick might be nice, but efficient removal might overall be better... Though if it works for you, stick to what you know works... ^^
Yeah, it's expensive, but it's also next to unconditional removal. Which is almost unseen in B. Plus the pump and non-inclusional (not for me) grave hate means that for the moment it's worth springing for to some degree.
The Paladin of the Bloodstained might be okay, just having 2 toughness for 4 mana felt idk a bit weak maybe... it does bring 2 bodies with it indeed, which is a reason to at least consider it.. Grin
3W for 5/4 total isn't bad. It's not amazing either. I probably won't give it a go. There's likely to be better, more efficient vampires released in Rivals of Ixalan anyway.
Keep what draw you need to keep, but when you get better draw options consider cutting the less optimal ones is mostly where I am going with what I said.. Wink
I'm curious what else you would suggest for draw? I like the idea of Phyrexian Arena, but I'm drawing a blank otherwise.
Most of the Vampires don't cost that much money, but I do get if you can't spend a lot to get all the cards, I would say try them out with proxies to see if they work for you before spending money on them.. (if your playgroup wil allow it, explain why you are doing it and they should be fine with it) Wink
The only one I will struggle with is Bloodline Keeper, and I'm not sure about it anyway. It's slow to work and ends up negating my Skullclamp game.
Also changed the original list to have Tithe Drinker instead of Vein Drinker - it's been this way for a while (clerical error). Added more simple, easy draw, and trying out Duskborne. Time will tell. The lands I've switched out life gain for cycling - card draw is far more versatile than life gain in this deck, and Opal Palace is just not very good.
Will be looking at picking up Kalastria Highborn over the weekend to add too.
Yeah, it's a strange place that vamps are in at the moment. They're quicker than zombies, maybe not as quick as goblins or elves, but I'd say elves have more lasting power into the end game, where goblins are in the same boat as vamps. It means this deck has to hit the ground running, still be able to remove key pieces, and recover from sweeps. It means putting a lot of tools in our box, while still hitting gas super quickly. I've thought about adding more sweeps myself, simply because I've plenty to recover with (Oversold Cemetery, Sigil of the New Dawn, Bishop of Rebirth[/c]) so it doesn't matter hugely if my board takes a hit. That being said, it's important to get the right pieces in hand early. Starting hand I'd say you want 2-3 lands, a colour fixer, a 1-2 drop vamp and draw or a sweeper, but even then that doesn't necessarily give you everything you need.
I have moved the speed of my deck up a lot by running lower curve and tactics like Ad Nausium / Null Profusion / Dark Confidant. Due to all of this my list has become a much faster deck.
I like your recent changes. I thought I would mention that I have tested Kalastria Highborn a few times and for the most part my thoughs on it are that its too mana intensive to really ever keep up when someone goes to sweep us (unless you could like stick mass flash). It also doesn't seem to have enough reach that I would want to proactively do this unless someone was in single didgets life total. The fact that it only hits a single opponent is unfortunate as well. Its the sort of effect you really want to be using swarm tactics for it to be good but its so mana intensive that its kind of bad.
I have moved the speed of my deck up a lot by running lower curve and tactics like Ad Nausium / Null Profusion / Dark Confidant. Due to all of this my list has become a much faster deck.
Of these, I only have Null Profusion. That being said, I've been tossing up adding it in. Worst case scenario it gives me some great opportunities to use the madness mechanic and accelerate out of nowhere in one turn. Could you share your thoughts on how useful it's been?
I like your recent changes. I thought I would mention that I have tested Kalastria Highborn a few times and for the most part my thoughs on it are that its too mana intensive to really ever keep up when someone goes to sweep us (unless you could like stick mass flash). It also doesn't seem to have enough reach that I would want to proactively do this unless someone was in single didgets life total. The fact that it only hits a single opponent is unfortunate as well. Its the sort of effect you really want to be using swarm tactics for it to be good but its so mana intensive that its kind of bad.
I've been thinking the same with Kalastria Highborn. The biggest draw is that it's a 2-drop. It's triggered ability is of limited use.
How do you find Goblin War Drums? I've been thinking of adding something similar in terms of altering combat mechanics - Behind the Scenes, War Cadence - although the ability of BTS and WC itself are both quite mana intensive, they could close out a game very quickly. How valuable are you finding Legion's Landing? To me it seems like a safety net and no more. Ideally rather than spending mana generating tokens I'd rather be casting creature spells for double value, so it seems to me like something I'd more use for chump blockers or making the most of Shared Animosity.
Of these, I only have Null Profusion. That being said, I've been tossing up adding it in. Worst case scenario it gives me some great opportunities to use the madness mechanic and accelerate out of nowhere in one turn. Could you share your thoughts on how useful it's been?
I havent played the new list enough to say much on it yet. I got it one game but in that game I stuck a Skullclamp so casting Null Profusion while the Skullclamp was working wasn't really all that relevant.
How do you find Goblin War Drums? I've been thinking of adding something similar in terms of altering combat mechanics - Behind the Scenes, War Cadence - although the ability of BTS and WC itself are both quite mana intensive, they could close out a game very quickly. How valuable are you finding Legion's Landing? To me it seems like a safety net and no more. Ideally rather than spending mana generating tokens I'd rather be casting creature spells for double value, so it seems to me like something I'd more use for chump blockers or making the most of Shared Animosity.
In every build I have played so far, cheap vampires have always felt really good. I have yet to ever draw a 1 drop vamp and not be pleased having it.
Goblin War Drums - I still think Reconnaissance and Iroas, God of Victory are better but I have been pleased with the evasion it gave. I tried out Behind the Scenes but I found it to be less good because of a lot of tokens and 1/1 ETB creatures that I was still trying to fight through.
Legion's Landing - Honestly, its been ok now given my build has so much early game action. I mostly value it as a tempo ramp that comes with a 1/1 vamp token as well. I think the token making ability of it is utter garbage that I would mostly only do as a last resort. I would be hesitant to run it if I was not pushing my list to move so quickly but its kind of nice being its ramp that comes with an on theme token. I think its questionable as all hell in most lists though to be honest lol. If things like Chrome Mox and Mox Diamond are things you are interested in running then I think that its kind of in the same line of thinking but I think you really need to have a lot of focus on your earlier game for me to like it personally.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Thanks for the feedback. I may add Null Profusion at some point and see how it goes.
In every build I have played so far, cheap vampires have always felt really good. I have yet to ever draw a 1 drop vamp and not be pleased having it.
This is valuable information. Simply because a lot of the one drop vampires have fairly uninspiring abilities, so it's clearly just about getting the 2-for-1 with a random associated ability. I could definitely look at lowering my curve, and maybe squeezing some more vamps in just to up the count (last count was just above 30 I believe).
Thanks for the BTS feedback, it doesn't sound like it'll do what I'd like it to as it doesn't stop chump blocking - and it's hard to see a favourable outcome from that.
Legion's Landing - Honestly, its been ok now given my build has so much early game action. I mostly value it as a tempo ramp that comes with a 1/1 vamp token as well. I think the token making ability of it is utter garbage that I would mostly only do as a last resort. I would be hesitant to run it if I was not pushing my list to move so quickly but its kind of nice being its ramp that comes with an on theme token. I think its questionable as all hell in most lists though to be honest lol. If things like Chrome Mox and Mox Diamond are things you are interested in running then I think that its kind of in the same line of thinking but I think you really need to have a lot of focus on your earlier game for me to like it personally.
Agreed. I'm not in the boat where I need to push that hard in my meta. I'll still be moving super quickly anyway, so eking out one more token for 2W isn't advantageous.
Paying one mana for 2 on tribe creatures works incredibly well when it comes to anthem effects as well. The only downside of cheap drops is really the risk of running out of steam. Its part of why I run so many tempo refills in my list.
Agreed. I'm not in the boat where I need to push that hard in my meta. I'll still be moving super quickly anyway, so eking out one more token for 2W isn't advantageous.
Its actually 2WW given that it requires you to tap it as well and its a white producing land. 4 mana for a single token that is not repeatable is a really lousy token production ability. Its like.... literally the last thing I want to ever be doing lol.
I like BN, but he's sort of in the wrong place here. Ideally you want him returning a vampire to your hand for recast. Also, I have always had an irrational dislike for Underworld Connections. It's a worse Phyrexian Arena that you need to activate each turn. Whether Null Profusion works out or not remains to be seen, but if I do add UC back in it will be grudgingly.
I also had a sort of epiphany yesterday regarding getting the most out of Edgar's trigger; Possibility Storm. Sure it's a bit of a chaos.dec card, but because both the inital card and the replacement are cast you are getting two tokens for every creature, plus the opportunity of ramping into a bigger threat, and disrupting your opponents makes it worth considering to my mind. I'd love to hear feedback.
Possibility Storm - Its a card I have been kicking arround myself for the last week. I havent run it yet or even put it in my list yet but its a card I do want to test when I get a chance. I have a lot of changes to test right now so I have been putting it off but it seems like it could be really strong for vamps.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
The initial temptation for Edgar is to slam a whole lot of big splashy vampires in here. From playtesting, this is far from optimal. Edgar works best with the smallest vampires you can find, and if you can churn out a whole hand's worth early, you can put a lot of pressure on the table and really make the most of a really efficient ability. It means that adding to this list needs very specific cards; we want one drops, we want very strong and efficient draw options, and IF we want recursion at all, we want it to come back to hand for a bargain basement outlay.
Here's the list:
6 Edgar Markov
Creatures
1 Vampire Lacerator
1 Guul Draz Assassin
1 Guul Draz Vampire
1 Stromkirk Noble
1 Skymarcher Aspirant
1 Changeling Outcast
1 Falkenrath Gorger
1 Insolent Neonate
1 Knight of the Ebon legion
1 Vampire of the Dire Moon
1 Viscera Seer
1 Vampire Cutthroat
1 Vicious Conquistador
1 Indulgent Aristocrat
1 Duskborne Skymarcher
1 Shadow Alley Denizen
1 Pulse Tracker
2 Bloodthrone Vampire
2 Cruel Celebrant
2 Cordial Vampire
2 Oathsworn Vampire
2 Legion Lieutenant
2 Dusk Legion Zealot
2 Zulaport Cutthroat
2 Stromkirk Condemned
2 Bishop's Soldier
2 Blood Artist
2 Tithe Drinker
2 Blood Seeker
2 Vampire Hexmage
2 Olivia's Bloodsworn
2 Asylum Visitor
3 Drana, Liberator of Malakir
3 Captivating Vampire
3 Rakish Heir
3 Stromkirk Captain
4 Vindictive Vampire
4 Sanctum Seeker
4 Bloodline Keeper
5 Malakir Bloodwitch
5 Champion of Dusk
1 Legion's Landing
1 Reconnaissance
2 Grasp of Fate
2 Cover of Darkness
3 Shared Animosity
3 Goblin War Drums
3 Necropotence
3 Phyrexian Arena
Artifacts
1 Skullclamp
1 Sol Ring
2 Orzhov Signet
2 Rakdos Signet
2 Boros Signet
4 Door of Destinies
Sorceries
4 Minions' Murmurs
5 Ad Nauseam
5 Reforge the Soul
6 Austere Command
6 Merciless Eviction
Instants
1 Swords to Plowshares
3 Fire Covenant
4 Return to Dust
Lands
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Caves of Koilos
1 Concealed Courtyard
1 Drifting Meadow
1 Smoldering Crater
1 Forgotten Cave
1 Nomad Outpost
1 Rocky Tar Pit
1 Command Tower
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Stone Quarry
1 Tainted Field
1 Forsaken Sanctuary
1 Urborg Volcano
1 Rakdos Guildgate
1 Cinder Barrens
1 Akoum Refuge
1 Rakdos Carnarium
9 Swamp
4 Mountain
3 Plains
The shell of the deck has taken a while to upgrade - a lot of these cards are the epitome of jank in any other context and can be hard to dig out. Regardless, there's still places to improve here. Fast mana and colour fixing with fetches, efficient rocks, more iterations of efficient draw would all be really handy. The only issue I have with this is that thus far this deck is reasonably budget - making these changes would immediately balloon the price of this deck. Maybe in the future, but not now.
1 Insolent Neonate
3 Stromkirk Captain
4 Driver of the Dead
2 Tormenting Voice
1 Faithless Looting
3 Stensia Masquerade
5 Reforge the Soul
4 Relentless Assault
3 Read the Bones
5 Sanguine Bond
6 Thief of Blood
5 End Hostilities
3 Underworld Connections
5 Bloodlord of Vaasgoth
5 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
Changes as follows:
5 Bishop of Rebirth
2 Bloodcrazed Paladin
3 Mirror Entity
4 Sanctum Seeker
1 Vicious Conquistador
3 Crip Swap
2 Bishop's Soldier
3 Mavren Fein, Dusk Apostle
5 Cathar's Crusade
3 Kheru Mind-Eater
4 Kindred Boon
4 Sangromancer
4 Driver of the Dead
5 Anowon, the Ruin Sage
5 Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
4 Disrupt Decorum
5 Word of Seizing
8 Licia, Sanguine Tribune
3 Olivia, Mobilized for War
3 Yahenni, Undying Partisan
1 Vampiric Rites
3 Mathas, Fiend Seeker
3 Vampire Nighthawk
5 Black Market
The market has never been all that great, and VR is cheap draw and sac. The two legendary vamp adds should be solid, Yahenni protecting herself straight away and Olivia hitting some aggro and madness points with her discard trigger.
I also felt that Cathar's Crusade and Door of Destinies came down too late, ate up a whole turns mana, and that I ran out of gas to exploit these cards.
Also, look into Reconnaissance. It's crazy good in this deck... to the point it's my #1 tutor target.
Definitely agree with this assessment. Skullclamp has been a godsend whenever drawn, likewise with Well of Lost Dreams. I'd agree with all of these bar Necropotence - partly because I don't have a spare, partly because BBB isn't easy, and partly because it doesn't interact all that well with the discard some of the cards in here like. Nevertheless, yes, card draw is absolutely fundamental for Edgar.
Cathar's Crusade I've yet to draw into it to be honest. That being said it's remarkably similar to Edgar's attack ability so it probably isn't crucial. Door of Destinies is nuts when I've played it, really happy with it being here. It's already an aggro deck, the Door makes your threats must answer.
Reconaissance is tech I don't own but would love copies of. I'm assuming the primary use is to remove Edgar from combat and still get his trigger?
Or the short answer is... it allows you untap each attacking creature you control whenever it's the most beneficial anytime during combat on your turn.
4 Nahiri, the Harbinger
1 Falkenrath Gorger
2 Stromkirk Condemned
3 Herald's Horn
5 Cathars' Crusade
3 Heirloom Blade
6 Blood Tribute
4 Well of Lost Dreams
Giving the madness mechanic a reasonable punt, could be fairly explosive. Nahiri and HH are to smooth out draw, and replace CC which was a little win-moreish, WOLD is a little redundant here now, and BT is a bit expensive.
Again, I agree regarding the number of vampires. The high end vampires...could you be more specific? I feel like most of the creatures here do a reasonable job of justifying their place.
These are all good adds. I don't have a Bloodline Keeper unfortunately, nor the money for one. Asylum Visitor I can see here, same as Vampire Hexmage and Shadow Alley Denizen - it's one of those commons I thought I had lying around and don't. Annoying. Purphoros, God of the Forge I don't have a copy of either. I'd probably not add it anyway.
I'd LOVE a copy of Shared Animosity, that thing is nuts. I know it's being reprinted in Explorers of Ixalan, hopefully my LGS will break a pack up. Between Coat of Arms and Door of Destinies I definitely prefer the door, simply because it's asymmetrical.
This definitely helps, I agree with the rush down tactic. This deck should hit hard and early. Regarding mana rocks, the signets I like to fix colour, so they'll probably stay. The StriRes and Worn Powerstone I could lose, same as the Blade, which is sort of win-more. That opens up a space for 2-3 more vamps.
In:
Vampire Hexmage - Had a spare.
Bloodlord of Vaasgoth
Sign in Blood
Oversold Cemetery
Out:
Strionic Resonator
Blade of the Bloodchief
Worn Powerstone
New Blood
I like Necropolis Regent as a 2IC to Edgar, but it is high on the curve.
Patron of the Vein I mostly carry to combat reanimator strategies. I've found it fairly good. The red redirect cards could definitely go, most probably in favour of more draw.
Vampiric Rites...yeah I get it. It's a reasonably good sac/draw outlet, but it's not perfect. I'd prefer other draw outlets, but I don't have a lot sitting around in my folder at present.
Damnable Pact is expensive. It's next on the block to go.
Kindred Charge, as fun as it is, is pretty win more and rather unnecessary.
Some of these I have and some I don't.
Kalastria Highborn would be really nice. I need a copy.
Drana, Liberator of Malakir would quite likely be a good replacement for Necropolis Regent.
Tithe Drinker is already in here.
[c]Olivia's Bloodsworn[c/]...I'm hesitant about. The haste is great, but not being able to block is iffy. That being said, he doesn't tap to use that ability, so it gets me out of the blocks pretty quick.
I really wouldn't expect much from Duskborne Skymarcher either. I guess altering combat math is nice.
Other considerations:
I've looked at Stromkirk Occultist as red's version of draw. Could be fun, and with the pump this deck can give, the trample, and the fact that it comes down early it could be good.
Paladin of the Bloodstained does nothing super special, but in this deck it does give me 3 bodies for 4 mana which is not nothing. I've toyed with giving it a go, but haven't taken the plunge yet.
Yeah, it's expensive, but it's also next to unconditional removal. Which is almost unseen in B. Plus the pump and non-inclusional (not for me) grave hate means that for the moment it's worth springing for to some degree.
3W for 5/4 total isn't bad. It's not amazing either. I probably won't give it a go. There's likely to be better, more efficient vampires released in Rivals of Ixalan anyway.
I'm curious what else you would suggest for draw? I like the idea of Phyrexian Arena, but I'm drawing a blank otherwise.
The only one I will struggle with is Bloodline Keeper, and I'm not sure about it anyway. It's slow to work and ends up negating my Skullclamp game.
1 Duskborne Skymarcher
2 Night's Whisper
3 Underworld Connections
3 Hammer of Purphoros
1 Drifting Meadow
1 Smoldering Crater
1 Secluded Steppe
1 Forgotten Cave
6 Kindred Charge
2 Reverberate
4 Wild Ricochet
2 Damnable Pact
1 Opal Palace
1 Wind-Scarred Crag
1 Bloodfell Caves
1 Kabira Crossroads
Also changed the original list to have Tithe Drinker instead of Vein Drinker - it's been this way for a while (clerical error). Added more simple, easy draw, and trying out Duskborne. Time will tell. The lands I've switched out life gain for cycling - card draw is far more versatile than life gain in this deck, and Opal Palace is just not very good.
Will be looking at picking up Kalastria Highborn over the weekend to add too.
Yeah, it's a strange place that vamps are in at the moment. They're quicker than zombies, maybe not as quick as goblins or elves, but I'd say elves have more lasting power into the end game, where goblins are in the same boat as vamps. It means this deck has to hit the ground running, still be able to remove key pieces, and recover from sweeps. It means putting a lot of tools in our box, while still hitting gas super quickly. I've thought about adding more sweeps myself, simply because I've plenty to recover with (Oversold Cemetery, Sigil of the New Dawn, Bishop of Rebirth[/c]) so it doesn't matter hugely if my board takes a hit. That being said, it's important to get the right pieces in hand early. Starting hand I'd say you want 2-3 lands, a colour fixer, a 1-2 drop vamp and draw or a sweeper, but even then that doesn't necessarily give you everything you need.
I like your recent changes. I thought I would mention that I have tested Kalastria Highborn a few times and for the most part my thoughs on it are that its too mana intensive to really ever keep up when someone goes to sweep us (unless you could like stick mass flash). It also doesn't seem to have enough reach that I would want to proactively do this unless someone was in single didgets life total. The fact that it only hits a single opponent is unfortunate as well. Its the sort of effect you really want to be using swarm tactics for it to be good but its so mana intensive that its kind of bad.
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I've been thinking the same with Kalastria Highborn. The biggest draw is that it's a 2-drop. It's triggered ability is of limited use.
I had a look at your list, too. It looks fearsome. There are quite a few one drops I'm missing (Vampire Lacerator, Pulse Tracker, Quag Vampires, Shadow Alley Denizen, Stromkirk Noble), so I'll be searching my boxes for some of these.
How do you find Goblin War Drums? I've been thinking of adding something similar in terms of altering combat mechanics - Behind the Scenes, War Cadence - although the ability of BTS and WC itself are both quite mana intensive, they could close out a game very quickly. How valuable are you finding Legion's Landing? To me it seems like a safety net and no more. Ideally rather than spending mana generating tokens I'd rather be casting creature spells for double value, so it seems to me like something I'd more use for chump blockers or making the most of Shared Animosity.
I havent played the new list enough to say much on it yet. I got it one game but in that game I stuck a Skullclamp so casting Null Profusion while the Skullclamp was working wasn't really all that relevant.
In every build I have played so far, cheap vampires have always felt really good. I have yet to ever draw a 1 drop vamp and not be pleased having it.
Goblin War Drums - I still think Reconnaissance and Iroas, God of Victory are better but I have been pleased with the evasion it gave. I tried out Behind the Scenes but I found it to be less good because of a lot of tokens and 1/1 ETB creatures that I was still trying to fight through.
Legion's Landing - Honestly, its been ok now given my build has so much early game action. I mostly value it as a tempo ramp that comes with a 1/1 vamp token as well. I think the token making ability of it is utter garbage that I would mostly only do as a last resort. I would be hesitant to run it if I was not pushing my list to move so quickly but its kind of nice being its ramp that comes with an on theme token. I think its questionable as all hell in most lists though to be honest lol. If things like Chrome Mox and Mox Diamond are things you are interested in running then I think that its kind of in the same line of thinking but I think you really need to have a lot of focus on your earlier game for me to like it personally.
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This is valuable information. Simply because a lot of the one drop vampires have fairly uninspiring abilities, so it's clearly just about getting the 2-for-1 with a random associated ability. I could definitely look at lowering my curve, and maybe squeezing some more vamps in just to up the count (last count was just above 30 I believe).
Thanks for the BTS feedback, it doesn't sound like it'll do what I'd like it to as it doesn't stop chump blocking - and it's hard to see a favourable outcome from that.
Agreed. I'm not in the boat where I need to push that hard in my meta. I'll still be moving super quickly anyway, so eking out one more token for 2W isn't advantageous.
Its actually 2WW given that it requires you to tap it as well and its a white producing land. 4 mana for a single token that is not repeatable is a really lousy token production ability. Its like.... literally the last thing I want to ever be doing lol.
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I've packed a couple of ways to recur creatures to hand - ordinarily I'd go for straight to battlefield with Living Death, Patriarch's Bidding etc, but we want to cast. Sigil of the New Dawn has been a really good add. Oversold Cemetery I've not played yet, but I've got high hopes for. Ideally if I had a spare Phyrexian Reclamation I'd have it in here too.
2 Olivia's Bloodsworn
6 Null Profusion
3 Underworld Connections
5 Bloodline Necromancer
I like BN, but he's sort of in the wrong place here. Ideally you want him returning a vampire to your hand for recast. Also, I have always had an irrational dislike for Underworld Connections. It's a worse Phyrexian Arena that you need to activate each turn. Whether Null Profusion works out or not remains to be seen, but if I do add UC back in it will be grudgingly.
I also had a sort of epiphany yesterday regarding getting the most out of Edgar's trigger; Possibility Storm. Sure it's a bit of a chaos.dec card, but because both the inital card and the replacement are cast you are getting two tokens for every creature, plus the opportunity of ramping into a bigger threat, and disrupting your opponents makes it worth considering to my mind. I'd love to hear feedback.
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