Amazing deck! I am planning to build it - and it'll be the first non-pauper EDH for me
I will start with your budget deck with a slightly different mana base and more ramp & land search.
But I would like to say I wouldn't play Whispers of the Muse and Stonecloaker. Buyback and reusability of these cards are as annoying as Capsize IMO. I'd stick with both pulses only. Oh, and some flashback spells too.
What do you think about Noxious Revival? You can reuse anything on your graveyard (counter, destroyed land, etc) or wreck some renimate effect. I will test this one.When I assemble my deck in my mind I will post it here.
Congrats for now!
The beauty of this deck is that it doesn't really require specific cards other than the commander, only that they fit styles like: counter, recursion, draw, mass removal, etc. Stonecloaker is one of the better targeted gy removals since it is repeatable but you can just go for some mass gy removal or your own version of gy removal, as long as it replaces that job of gy control. It's just hard to find something with that strength and repeatability.
Noxious Revival is very strong and worth considering in any build similar to the original due to what you mentioned. Regrowth I feel is a bit stronger due to same-turn plays like Regrowth into Wrath of God-variant, but both are good and including both is a good choice as well.
I don't think there's much of a case to include ramp since we're not ramping to anything in particular, and they're dead draws late. The only ones I like are exploration and Burgeoning since they let us empty our hand of lands to keep it lean and mean, and they have a super low cmc and are backup targets for any tutors that hit telepathy. But that's just my two cents.
Whispers of the muse (and other repeatable draw like arch of orazca) I think circumvent the "don't play repeatable effects" rule because the result of them is both undetermined and separated from the actual board-state change, so they're significantly less threatening. With capsize your opponents know exactly how much havoc you can wreak and will play accordingly. Also to get value out of capsize you have actually bounce permanents, which is bound to make people mad. If you're just playing whispers, you don't need to piss anyone off to get value. You also can just not cast it when you're already at 7 cards. And, like all buyback spells, if it's becoming a problem you can always just cast it without buyback. I haven't played whispers a whole lot, but arch has been consistently excellent and they're very similar effects.
Stonecloaker is a different beast and I do wish we had a better tool for the job. Being a creature makes it a target for otherwise-useless removal, and being a repeatable hate card against graveyard decks can put us in the position of being a threat to those players and is likely to attract their attention. But graveyard based decks can be difficult for us to deal with, and having a single-use grave-hate like clear the mind can only delay the problem. I've been using stonecloaker in most version of phelddagrif and my main strategy with it has been to be very judicious about how you use it - don't eot it constantly for value, only use it when you absolutely have to and be apologetic about it. But YMMV, it's definitely one of the least on-brand cards in the deck. If you wanted an alternative, I think perhaps the best option might be including a bunch of deserts alongside scavenger grounds (which already merits a spot) so that you have repeatable, but not unlimited and not without a real cost, grave hate. That way your judicious use of the effect is more explicable as not wanting to lose your lands and not wanting to use your answers against subpar targets, rather than just being permissive for no reason. The deserts could also help speed up the phelddagrif clock by a turn or two, or give some cycling in the late-game, so it's not a bad solution. Even the mill one could be useful as a weak alt wincon. Hmm, I might have talked myself into it. You'd probably want to make sure you have some land tutors, though.
Flashback is great but there aren't a ton of flashback spells that fit in the deck unfortunately. Deep analysis is a decent draw spell. Fervent Denial is the wrong kind of card to have revealed in your grave, same for divine reckoning, both will have people trying to bait you into firing them off. flash of insight is also decent. memory's journey/krosan reclamation are both ok grave hate/anti-mill tech and can be played. moment's peace is great. prismatic strands is an ok backup but significantly worse in several ways. purify the grave is too low-impact imo, I'd rather have memory's journey. ray of distortion is really overpriced. ray of revelation is too narrow. think twice does too little imo, it's fine but I'd just play a bigger draw spell. aaaand that's all of them. Some ok but replaceable draw, some decent grave hate, and one excellent fog.
Noxious revival has the downside of being effectively sorcery speed when used on yourself (unless you have an instant-speed way to draw it), which makes it a bad choice for recurring counterspells, and really only great for recurring board wipes and our scant few permanents, and even then you're down a card. Unfortunately I don't think there are any ways to recur to hand at instant speed, unless you count reap, which is pretty sketchy (although a very high ceiling, obviously, maybe even too high to be honest). As far as the tempo play of putting a reanimation target on their deck, we're more in the business of value plays instead of tempo plays, so I'd much prefer to exile it than delay the inevitable.
Anyway those are my thoughts, I hope you enjoy the deck!
OK, so for some fun I took a look at all the deserts we can run in the deck and I'll run through them and offer some opinions real quick.
cradle of the accursed -
Not really what we're looking for. If it was an instant at least we could have a flash blocker in an emergency.
Desert -
Not a totally useless ability, could screw with some combat math and kills hippo tokens gone rogue, and it's a nice low cost. Obviously better if you've got good fixing.
desert of the indomitable/desert of the mindful/desert of the true -
I like these a decent amount, they have that low-powered-new-card stink that makes a deck really look like a piece of crap worthy of being ignored And realistically paying 1 more for cycling is pretty irrelevant at the point you'd be cycling them. LFTL interaction is obviously...questionable. Might be too strong, or maybe the extra cost makes it ok. I haven't run lftl in a while though.
dunes of the dead -
This does give us a flash blocker when in combo with one of the sac deserts. Better than cradle since we'd basically never sac cradle to itself. Still mostly useless, though.
Endless Sands -
Solid card but, at least for my current version it doesn't really do anything. Protect stonecloaker, which we're trying to make obselete? lol. Good if you have a decent number of creatures, but that's really stretching the boundaries of this deck.
Grasping dunes -
I guess it's removal for some small number of things, but being a sorcery I'm pretty not into it. OG desert seems a lot better, even if this can ignore combat.
Hashep Oasis -
Speeds up phelddagrif by 1 turn by itself, 2 turns with a buddy desert. Plus it taps for green and is untapped, but doesn't have to hurt us, so the cost is really low. Definitely the best of the utility lands imo.
Hostile Desert -
If we do have a bunch of deserts like the cyclers this could conceivably activate, but other than chumping it's pretty useless.
Ipnu Rivulet -
Comes at a low cost like hashep oasis, but its effect is a lot weaker. Still, could be a way to mill people out, if you have enough deserts and the game is super long.
Painted Bluffs -
Definitely worse than a basic, but it's not the worst land ever fixing-wise. Probably better than a colorless land with no useful abilities at all, like cradle or grasping dunes.
Shefet Dunes -
Same low cost as the others, but it's a 1-turn speed increase for Phelddagrif and that's it. Still pretty solid though.
Sunscorched desert -
Does nothing except slightly annoy someone. No thanks.
Survivor's Encampment -
On the plus side, Phelddagrif is almost always untapped so you have an easy way to fix, but you already need all 3 colors of mana to cast Phelddagrif. Probably worse than painted bluffs on balance.
OK, so after all that, I think the deserts worth playing are:
I don't think there's much of a case to include ramp since we're not ramping to anything in particular, and they're dead draws late. The only ones I like are exploration and Burgeoning since they let us empty our hand of lands to keep it lean and mean, and they have a super low cmc and are backup targets for any tutors that hit telepathy. But that's just my two cents.
Actually I meant land search for our utility lands using a couple spells like Sylvan Scrying. Ramp will be made using 2-3 ramping lands.
Whispers of the muse (and other repeatable draw like arch of orazca) I think circumvent the "don't play repeatable effects" rule because the result of them is both undetermined and separated from the actual board-state change, so they're significantly less threatening. With capsize your opponents know exactly how much havoc you can wreak and will play accordingly. Also to get value out of capsize you have actually bounce permanents, which is bound to make people mad. If you're just playing whispers, you don't need to piss anyone off to get value. You also can just not cast it when you're already at 7 cards. And, like all buyback spells, if it's becoming a problem you can always just cast it without buyback. I haven't played whispers a whole lot, but arch has been consistently excellent and they're very similar effects.
I agree with the threatening part. Will think about it.
Stonecloaker is a different beast and I do wish we had a better tool for the job. Being a creature makes it a target for otherwise-useless removal, and being a repeatable hate card against graveyard decks can put us in the position of being a threat to those players and is likely to attract their attention. But graveyard based decks can be difficult for us to deal with, and having a single-use grave-hate like clear the mind can only delay the problem. I've been using stonecloaker in most version of phelddagrif and my main strategy with it has been to be very judicious about how you use it - don't eot it constantly for value, only use it when you absolutely have to and be apologetic about it. But YMMV, it's definitely one of the least on-brand cards in the deck. If you wanted an alternative, I think perhaps the best option might be including a bunch of deserts alongside scavenger grounds (which already merits a spot) so that you have repeatable, but not unlimited and not without a real cost, grave hate. That way your judicious use of the effect is more explicable as not wanting to lose your lands and not wanting to use your answers against subpar targets, rather than just being permissive for no reason. The deserts could also help speed up the phelddagrif clock by a turn or two, or give some cycling in the late-game, so it's not a bad solution. Even the mill one could be useful as a weak alt wincon. Hmm, I might have talked myself into it. You'd probably want to make sure you have some land tutors, though.
Maybe the (ab)use of Scavenger Grounds is enough. Maybe the aggro-gy player will be the threat of the table abd you don't need to care that much. I will think about it but with a grain of salt.
Flashback is great but there aren't a ton of flashback spells that fit in the deck unfortunately. Deep analysis is a decent draw spell. Fervent Denial is the wrong kind of card to have revealed in your grave, same for divine reckoning, both will have people trying to bait you into firing them off. flash of insight is also decent. memory's journey/krosan reclamation are both ok grave hate/anti-mill tech and can be played. moment's peace is great. prismatic strands is an ok backup but significantly worse in several ways. purify the grave is too low-impact imo, I'd rather have memory's journey. ray of distortion is really overpriced. ray of revelation is too narrow. think twice does too little imo, it's fine but I'd just play a bigger draw spell. aaaand that's all of them. Some ok but replaceable draw, some decent grave hate, and one excellent fog.
Noxious revival has the downside of being effectively sorcery speed when used on yourself (unless you have an instant-speed way to draw it), which makes it a bad choice for recurring counterspells, and really only great for recurring board wipes and our scant few permanents, and even then you're down a card. Unfortunately I don't think there are any ways to recur to hand at instant speed, unless you count reap, which is pretty sketchy (although a very high ceiling, obviously, maybe even too high to be honest). As far as the tempo play of putting a reanimation target on their deck, we're more in the business of value plays instead of tempo plays, so I'd much prefer to exile it than delay the inevitable.
You can always use it on opponent's EOT. And you can use Regrowth or someting like that. I like this idea of redundance, will test a couple options as well. All tests will require a tweak on mana base - I expect to have 42ish lands instead of 45.
OK, so after all that, I think the deserts worth playing are:
scavenger grounds (duh)
desert of the indomitable
desert of the mindful
desert of the true
hashep oasis
Shefet Dunes
Ipnu Rivulet (maybe)
Desert (maybe)
I will consider all colored options. Maybe an Arabian Nights Desert if I can find one Again, this is both a better way to deal with GYs (you continue under the radar) and/or pump your general more often.
Anyway those are my thoughts, I hope you enjoy the deck!
I kinda liked the primer until I got to the climate change part.
Ok, we got the point: you got an agenda. Will you be so kind as to cut out this highly politicized theme?
I came to mtgsal to read about Magic. If I wanted to read about religion, politics, anti-abortion, male privilege, veganism, creationism, climate change or any other political/religious/worldview nonsense, I wouldn't come to this site.
Yes. If there'd be another way how to report the stuff, I'd keep lurking.
Isn't Mtg Salvation a non-partisan, non-political, non-religious site devoted to Magic: the Gathering? I'm not interested in original poster's worldview or his/her opinions on a controversial scientific matter. And I find it arrogant that I have those opinions shoved down my throat while I'm looking for a Phelddagriff related edh thread, not to mention that his proposal that dissident people should not vote stinks of totalitarianism.
I didn't mean any offense by the section, although I'll admit to going a little over the top with the joke about not voting (although it was just a suggestion not a totalitarian demand). That was brought to my attention so I went ahead and removed it prior to your comment, along with some of the other stuff that was potentially antagonistic. I hope that improves the situation for you. Regardless of what you believe about climate change, I think we can agree that many people see it as a problem, yet despite a broad public desire to do something about it, very little of significant effect is actually being done (whether or not there's anything about which to be done).
I like this section because it's a good metaphor for how Phelddagrif operates - a long term, vague problem that is almost always outweighed by more immediate concerns and personal gain. I'm not really aware of anything else that compares to the effect quite as nicely, so I'd like to leave it in. It's just a single section in a very large primer though - I hope you can see past it.
I am glad people are actually reading all the way through this stuff, though. Sometimes this primer feels like shouting into the wind.
I didn't mean any offense by the section, although I'll admit to going a little over the top with the joke about not voting (although it was just a suggestion not a totalitarian demand).
Yeah, and this was pretty arrogant: you suggest to all the people who are either unconvinced by the climate changers' arguments or who see more closer and dangerous challenges, to resign on their political rights. If this would be written in any non-mainstream context, I guess there'd be flak all over the place.
Morevoer it has nothing to do with Mtg, and as I already wrote, I don't want to read about politics, reliogion and other such stuff on a MtG site. I want my game to be a refuge from this affairs, and I don't know why I should be bothered by these things, no matter what's my opinion on a particular matter.
I like this section because it's a good metaphor for how Phelddagrif operates
It isn't a good metaphor. For one, it needed an explanation of how the deck operates and that explanation offered everything necessary without any unneeded political stuff. And at least for me it brought no light into the Phgriff problematic, coz it made very little sense, as illustrated here:
Regardless of what you believe about Hell, I think we can agree that many people see it as a problem, yet despite a broad public desire to do something about it...
See? It brought absolutely nothing possitive into an MtG dsicussion, yet it's a perfect way how to alienate or piss the readers. which in this case was exactly what happened, as I stopped reading any further.
However, being a mainly 1v1 player, and realizing that for the few multigames that I annualy play I wouldn't choose such a difficult deck, further debate is unnecessary and I may return to the lurker status.
It's a pretty good metaphor in my opinion. Keep it
There are probably some other parallels with the human problem of dealing with long term problems (we just never think they are going to happen, it's a psychological issue almost all people have), but this one is fine. And overwhelmingly supported by science regardless of which side of the aisle you're on.
Fundamentally the science is close enough to settled so I don't think it's a political issue anymore (other than what to do about it, which is where the relationship comes in with Pheld)--and there are tons of scientific parallels in EDH!
I didn't mean any offense by the section, although I'll admit to going a little over the top with the joke about not voting (although it was just a suggestion not a totalitarian demand). That was brought to my attention so I went ahead and removed it prior to your comment, along with some of the other stuff that was potentially antagonistic. I hope that improves the situation for you. Regardless of what you believe about climate change, I think we can agree that many people see it as a problem, yet despite a broad public desire to do something about it, very little of significant effect is actually being done (whether or not there's anything about which to be done).
I like this section because it's a good metaphor for how Phelddagrif operates - a long term, vague problem that is almost always outweighed by more immediate concerns and personal gain. I'm not really aware of anything else that compares to the effect quite as nicely, so I'd like to leave it in. It's just a single section in a very large primer though - I hope you can see past it.
I am glad people are actually reading all the way through this stuff, though. Sometimes this primer feels like shouting into the wind.
Please do not censor yourself because some people like this guy had his feelings hurt, please do not let this kind of people reap your right to say whatever you want.
They can think and say that global warming is fake and I don't care about their ignorance, I won't ask them to not talk their thoughts, and I will not hold my thoughts because some people have their feelings hurt for those.
So,
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EDH: UWG Phelddagrif, The current updated decklist is here
EDH: WUBYennett, Cryptic Sovereign The current updated decklist is here
I don't care about their ignorance, I won't ask them to not talk their thoughts, and I will not hold my thoughts because some people have their feelings hurt for those.
I don't care about your ignorance.
There's a reason why this stuff should not appear here, simply for the same reason why you wouldn't annoy a people playing chess in air raid shelter with screams of "there's a WAR outside, guys, there's a WAR!!!" For the second time, so that even the slower ones got the message: in a context of MtG, I don't give a penny what the scientists say about flogiston, flat Earth, theory of four humours, or anything else. I came here to read about Magic: the Gathering, not to be bothered.
Fundamentally the science of is close enough to settled so I don't think it's a political issue anymore (other than what to do about it, which is where the relationship comes in with Pheld)--and there are tons of scientific parallels in EDH!
But this absolutely doesn't matter. Even if the climate change science was setled more than the theory of humours, it has nothing to do on a MtG site, I'm not interested in being bothered by it, and I may feel that there are more pressing and urgent dangers than something that may or may not change the living conditions on Earth in centuries. For what it's worth, I may be a climate change scientist myself. Or I may live in a deluge zone and see the climate chnage happening in front of my very eyes. But there's no reason to bother the paople with this kind of stuff, I came here to have fun with cards, not to be shoved down my throat a brimstone and hellfire propaganda. If you can't understand that, so be it.
Good job in turning this edh guide into another politicsa-&-religion-&-stuff thread, there was none on the web until now, and we desperately needed it.
First off, the site dies not have a censor on talking about religion, politics, or what have you, it's just that in most instances that topic is spam because it does not relate to Magic. In this case, I spoke to Dirk privately and asked them to tone down the post because it was crossing that line. Could they have still used a completely different analogy? Perhaps, but this one seemed like an apt metaphor and was within the context of the deck. We moderate with a light touch when at all possible. I felt like the post was not something which needed further attention so I left it alone.
Secondly, I am sorry that you felt offended enough by the post that you created an account just to comment on it, but at this point you are just further exasperating the situation by continuing to focus on it and derail the intent of the thread, which is the deck. You have voiced your criticism of one particular aspect of the primer, and it has been duly noted. If Dirk wishes to change it then it is their choice. But for the sake of the thread, please drop the subject and focus on the actual primer.
If you wish to discuss this further, feel free to PM me and I'll happily talk more about it.
I will start with your budget deck with a slightly different mana base and more ramp & land search.
Have you made your deck yet? I'm working off the budget list as well but upgrading the mana base and ramp as well.. I'd love to see a list if you have one and see if I'm on the right path
I continued to focus on the spam topic simply because other users commented on my opinion, and contrarily to Dirk and Pokken, one of them was hostile.
As I already wrote: it's clearly a pretty difficult deck (or at least the game plan is challenging) and I don't play enough multiplayer games to concentrate on mastering the intricacies of this deck. I liked the basic premise of the deck, and Phelddagriff is a funny card, but I lost my interest due to some stuff cca 3/4 through the primer.
Have you made your deck yet? I'm working off the budget list as well but upgrading the mana base and ramp as well.. I'd love to see a list if you have one and see if I'm on the right path
As I mentioned, I don't think ramp is necessary and, if anything, it makes the deck less competitive because it's harder to hold up early answers to fast combos. And honestly, at least in my experience, even a cheapo version of this deck cannot lose when played correctly in casual metas. But if you do want ramp, the best ramp options are:
You really want to hit nonbasics. That's what'll make these spells not just relevant, but actively strong in the lategame. I would shy strongly away from cards like rampant growth, which is basically useless outside of exactly turn 2 (where it's still risky in a competitive situation). And even moreso away from signets, which will just die to our own wraths.
As far as upgrading the manabase, I'd probably focus primarily on utility lands (kor haven, arcane lighthouse, thespian's stage, strip mine, and path of ancestry being your prime targets), especially if you're running some of the aforementioned ramp. Having duals and fetches is great, but pretty unnecessary unless you're playing against cEDH decks on the reg. Not that I don't enjoy having them of course, but they're pretty disproportionate compared to the cost of the rest of the deck.
If you want to speed things up, I'd focus less on ramp and more about adding some wincons to the deck, like ezuri's predation or expropriate, that can close out a game against multiple people at once. You'll want really hard-hitting bombs since you want them to win you the game on their own, since you need so many spots for removal and counters and such.
It can still be tough though. The deck wasn't designed with beating a table all at once in mind. You're usually counting on enemies to kill each other off at least a bit, and depending on how your table operates that could either be pretty quick or very slow. It's especially annoying when people's main wincon is an infinite combo or something that will kill everyone at once, which obviously you're going to have to stop, and they lack other ways to kill people for you. There's always hippos.
Hey, Dirk. Have you ever considered playing Very Cryptic Command, specifically this version, or is having to constantly ask for your opponents' permission not worth the hassle?
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I haven't really considered un-cards since I wasn't playing much during that window of un-legality. I briefly considered building an un deck, but then played against X a few times in limited and decided it was too miserable for my worst enemy.
My last playgroup had a lot of walk-ins, and my new playgroup is still, well, new to me, so assuming permission is probably a no-no. I know I tend to be very skeptical when someone asks if they can play un-cards or cards on the banlist, so I probably wouldn't ask that of someone else. But if you're in a stable group that is fine with un-cards, then I think it warrants consideration.
As far as the card itself, it seems pretty decent but not unfair. The redirect is mostly useless, but the other 3 could definitely be useful. I think cryptic command is better (I'd rather have a counter mode than 2 versions of targeted removal, even if one of them functions as a neutralization removal at instant speed, which is nice). The mana cost is, of course, tough and it's too slow to answer a lot of fast threats. It's not the sort of thing that's so powerful I'd want to go around asking special permission for it, but if un-cards are already part of your meta then it seems like a decent inclusion, albeit not an all-star or anything.
After having built decks that I thought would be as much fun as possible to play against only to have these experiences consistently ruined by players with no regard for good gameplay, I'm now bitter and jaded, and I just want to punish my opponents for their lack of skill and for their complete dependence on lame two-card combos. Naturally, a three-color control deck armed to the teeth with removal, sweepers, and countermagic seemed like a perfect fit. Hence, this deck. It's classic Bant control. (Though maybe Esper would suit me better? I'm unsure.)
My rendition doesn't follow all of your advice to a T, but I tried to keep everything as close to the original as possible, especially when it came to some of the more unusual cards like Pulse of the Fields and Telepathy; I definitely wanted to give those an honest go. That said, I think the biggest difference between your take and mine is that, when the time comes, I am perfectly happy to do the thing or play the card that gives me a commanding lead even if it makes me public enemy number one. After all, virtually no other deck is better equipped to defend itself when in that position anyway.
One card I'm particularly fond of is Rest in Peace. I love playing powerful hate cards that can single-handedly shut down players for building their decks in a hyper-linear fashion, especially if fair decks aren't punished in the process. Sure, just about everyone uses their graveyard to some extent, so a card like Rest in Peace is going to be a little annoying for everyone, but why should I care if I make myself the mortal enemy of the Muldrotha player when their entire deck centers around the graveyard? Experience has taught me that, when it comes to certain decks, it's always feast or famine. You either do everything in your power to stop them, or they completely take over the game, and there's nothing you can do about it, no in-between. Investing as little as two mana to stop an entire deck like that is too worthwhile (and too satisfying) for me not to do even if it makes me a target. And what can Muldrotha do about it anyway? Only focus me? Good luck with that; my entire deck is removal, and theirs is offline. And if my other opponents know what's best for them, they'll leave that Rest in Peace alone. Hell, they may even kick Muldrotha while they're down so that, once they've lost the game, they can then safely dispose of my Rest in Peace later.
One of my biggest concerns right now is that my deck won't generate enough card advantage. Single shot X spells like Sphinx's Revelation and Blue Sun's Zenith can be great, but they're also a bit situational. They require a lot of mana to be worthwhile, and every turn I have to react to some other player is a turn where I'm spending mana and unlikely to cast them. Permanent based card advantage seems like it might be worth pursuing, but it's difficult to support those sorts of cards while simultaneously playing sweepers like Cleansing Nova, Hour of Revelation, and Fracturing Gust. So, right now, I'm not sure what I should do. I'm going to play a good number of games before making any serious changes, but I'm currently contemplating cutting all the noncreature sweepers in favor of more Return to Dust variants so that I might play more artifacts and enchantments.
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Haha, I definitely get that desire to punish combo players. One of the better aspects of this deck. I'm not sure if it's exactly hyper competitive, but it's definitely great at blowing skill-less tryhards out of the water. I love it when my opponent says "I'm going to win this turn," and I look at my hand of removal and countermagic and say "Let's go through it one step at a time."
I do think esper would probably be slightly better colors - we get a few nice cards from green but black is probably more versatile, with a lot of good creature removal and strong tutors as the main draws for us. That said, I don't think any of their commanders really hold a candle to Phelddagrif - both in terms of the political element, and also just in terms of actual strength. Chromium is probably the best option, but he's still susceptible to sweepers and tricky blocking/removal situations, and he costs a lot. And when you tell people your plan is to kill them with Chromium commander damage, they take you seriously. When you say the same for Phelddagrif, they usually think you're kidding (or at least that's what usually happens to me).
We may just have to disagree on rest in peace, but by all means give it a shot. Here are my concerns, though:
-First and foremost, Muldrotha may not end up being your primary enemy. If you're running out of answers and another player is crushing you with value, you may well wish you hadn't neutered the Muldrotha player who could otherwise have helped, or at least provided a distraction. I generally think it's best to let your opponents tire themselves out against each other, rather than being too proactive. Single-shot stuff also lets you change course - Maybe you exile graves when Muldrotha is scary, but then someone else becomes the biggest problem and you can lay off Muldrotha so they can help you fight some new threat, rather than continuing to wither under a permanent effect. Even if you do want to use RIP, I'd be judicious in applying it, and don't just slam it out ASAP. If Muldrotha is always the archenemy and consistently overpowers the table even when focused down then this may not be relevant and RIP might be the best option, but my assumption is that this isn't the case.
-Maybe you've already been playing the card and had success with it, but I would personally be concerned about making a permanent enemy of any deck. Muldrotha obviously gets a lot of power from the grave, but most Muldrotha decks I've played against still usually have plenty of cards that I wouldn't want pointed my direction even if they aren't coming back. This is obviously going to depend a lot on the specific Muldrotha deck, but even if they only have a moderate number of threats, that's still potentially a constant drain on your resources when they could be out hurting your enemies instead.
-RIP, as a sorcery-speed answer, doesn't let you hold the threat of activation over them. What I like about stonecloaker and scavenger grounds is that you can sit on them and then continue to allow graveyard-based decks to continue doing their thing, but with the knowledge that you could make their lives hell if you wanted to. So as long as other players are scary and Muldrotha doesn't want to risk fighting on an additional front, they'll probably avoid doing anything that's likely to piss you off. Whereas if you just play RIP, they've got nothing left to lose and fighting you will presumably increase their chances against the other players, since it'll unlock their ability to do stuff again.
-Depending on your exact composition, I think RIP, as an enchantment, is too fragile to bank your whole anti-grave strategy on. Arguably the same is true of stonecloaker and scavenger grounds, but stonecloaker gets to spend most of its time in your hand and only come out when you think you can protect it, and scavenger grounds, being a land, is unlikely to get touched (depending on meta, of course). And, since neither is a problem until you use them, your opponents are less likely to bother worrying too much about them, as long as you're loose enough with the leash. Whereas they're sort of obliged to throw everything they've got at RIP or, barring the ability to remove it, your face.
-Not being able to run global sweepers like hour of rev is, imo, a huge sacrifice. Not only do they provide excellent CA, they're also more flexible than creature-only wipes and ensure you've got the right tool to reset anything and everything. And sure, return to dust is a fine card, but sometimes there are a ton of dangerous artifacts and enchantments that just need to die. Or even if they aren't dangerous, killing off mana rocks along with the scary stuff can be a nice bonus to keep folks in line a bit.
-Having permanent choke holds on people is probably going to leave a bad taste in those peoples' mouths. Sure, having their combo broken will make them unhappy, but I think most people realize that they probably deserved it. Having that one answer might be all you needed to keep the game balanced, but from their perspective you were still a relatively light, if important, presence in the game. But imagine if you had a RIP-style silver bullet for every opponent. Now suddenly you don't look like the guy who did a good thing by stopping that combo, you look like a powerful stax deck that overpowered the table and should be focused down from the word "go" in the next game. Which, hey, is a direction to go. If you really want to crush peoples' spirits, though, I'd suggest something more like my Child of Alara deck, which basically denies people the ability to do anything meaningful, and also virtually guarantees having the right tools to do it in a given game by being incredibly reliable. Child feels like a nasty brutal deck because it is, and it can take the heat that being the archenemy every game entails. Phelddagrif maybe can, depending on the meta, but the point of the deck is to be constructed in such a way that it never FEELS like too much of a threat, so that even after it's won game after game, it still seems like the wrong move to go after the friendly purple hippo. And that's just going to be a much tougher sell with RIP and the like. If you do manage to choke Muldrotha out of the game, I bet they're a lot more likely to come after you next time. And you might not have your RIP that game.
As far as value, I think there's a few permanents like Telepathy that are worth it even if they will probably eventually die to one of your own sweepers, but for the most part you can run very light on artifacts/enchantments and still do pretty well. Stuff like SDT don't really count, and pulse of the grid/whispers of the muse are great from the hand, and of course arch of orazca is an all-star land (although stuff like kor haven can do a lot of work as virtual-CA). Stick in a few of the best single-shot draw spells (I'm a big fan of dig through time), tutors for land/instants to hit your reusable stuff, and you should be in good shape. Sure, permanents provide some of the best CA (sylvan library comes to mind) but usually you get plenty of time to use them before you're forced to fire off a board wipe. A lot of time, by the time you do need to fire the board wipe, you've already drawn into another one anyway, making them a lot less important. I think you CAN make the deck fairly artifact/enchantment heavy and eschew global wipes, but I think it exposes you to more risks, both in terms of giving your opponents targets, and in terms of being unable to resolve situations where there are multiple dangerous noncreatures. At a minimum, I'd run flexible wipes like cleansing nova and austere command. Even if it means wiping out your own value when choosing the noncreature modes, it's better than dying.
This is easily the most interesting primer I've read on a general I'd never play. Just want to congratulate the author.
PS. I'm a little surprised this sort of 'politic-ing' is so hard to spot. But then, in multiplayer commander I delight in going after people forming alliances and obviously helping each others along. Especially if they are being very honest with each other. That way it's easier to encourage a state of board anarchy which suits my izzet-ness. Because eventually I feel my deck hits a stage where I can control all players at once. It's just very hard to get to. I'd definitely like to play an expert hippo commander one day. I've never seen him in action.
Phelddagrif doesn't need its politics to not be noticed in order to work. Sure, it makes things a bit easier, but I've told people how my deck works right before playing a game with them, and I still win just fine. See my (infamous?) tip RE: climate change.
It's perhaps worth pointing out the deck rarely "forms alliances". Usually it's fighting against whoever is the scariest, as is anyone else who's reasonable competent, so their interests do align at that point, but outright allying and dumping hippos, life, and cards on them is pretty rare. It's only really necessary if they're either being particularly dense, or if one player in particular is incredibly powerful and we're forced to show our true strength to fight them.
But usually we're just chilling, killing critical pieces when necessary or board wiping if things seem like they're getting out of hand, but otherwise just fading into the background and waiting for our enemies to kill each other for us.
I will start with your budget deck with a slightly different mana base and more ramp & land search.
But I would like to say I wouldn't play Whispers of the Muse and Stonecloaker. Buyback and reusability of these cards are as annoying as Capsize IMO. I'd stick with both pulses only. Oh, and some flashback spells too.
What do you think about Noxious Revival? You can reuse anything on your graveyard (counter, destroyed land, etc) or wreck some renimate effect. I will test this one.When I assemble my deck in my mind I will post it here.
Congrats for now!
Commander: Child of Alara BURGW, Adeliz, the Cinder Wind UR
Tiny Leaders: Gwafa, Hazid Profiteer UW
Regular Pauper: Stompy G, Mono-G Tron G, Infect G
Stonecloaker is one of the better targeted gy removals since it is repeatable but you can just go for some mass gy removal or your own version of gy removal, as long as it replaces that job of gy control. It's just hard to find something with that strength and repeatability.
Noxious Revival is very strong and worth considering in any build similar to the original due to what you mentioned. Regrowth I feel is a bit stronger due to same-turn plays like Regrowth into Wrath of God-variant, but both are good and including both is a good choice as well.
Beating Face with Bane
Beatrice, the Golden Witch
Whispers of the muse (and other repeatable draw like arch of orazca) I think circumvent the "don't play repeatable effects" rule because the result of them is both undetermined and separated from the actual board-state change, so they're significantly less threatening. With capsize your opponents know exactly how much havoc you can wreak and will play accordingly. Also to get value out of capsize you have actually bounce permanents, which is bound to make people mad. If you're just playing whispers, you don't need to piss anyone off to get value. You also can just not cast it when you're already at 7 cards. And, like all buyback spells, if it's becoming a problem you can always just cast it without buyback. I haven't played whispers a whole lot, but arch has been consistently excellent and they're very similar effects.
Stonecloaker is a different beast and I do wish we had a better tool for the job. Being a creature makes it a target for otherwise-useless removal, and being a repeatable hate card against graveyard decks can put us in the position of being a threat to those players and is likely to attract their attention. But graveyard based decks can be difficult for us to deal with, and having a single-use grave-hate like clear the mind can only delay the problem. I've been using stonecloaker in most version of phelddagrif and my main strategy with it has been to be very judicious about how you use it - don't eot it constantly for value, only use it when you absolutely have to and be apologetic about it. But YMMV, it's definitely one of the least on-brand cards in the deck. If you wanted an alternative, I think perhaps the best option might be including a bunch of deserts alongside scavenger grounds (which already merits a spot) so that you have repeatable, but not unlimited and not without a real cost, grave hate. That way your judicious use of the effect is more explicable as not wanting to lose your lands and not wanting to use your answers against subpar targets, rather than just being permissive for no reason. The deserts could also help speed up the phelddagrif clock by a turn or two, or give some cycling in the late-game, so it's not a bad solution. Even the mill one could be useful as a weak alt wincon. Hmm, I might have talked myself into it. You'd probably want to make sure you have some land tutors, though.
Flashback is great but there aren't a ton of flashback spells that fit in the deck unfortunately. Deep analysis is a decent draw spell. Fervent Denial is the wrong kind of card to have revealed in your grave, same for divine reckoning, both will have people trying to bait you into firing them off. flash of insight is also decent. memory's journey/krosan reclamation are both ok grave hate/anti-mill tech and can be played. moment's peace is great. prismatic strands is an ok backup but significantly worse in several ways. purify the grave is too low-impact imo, I'd rather have memory's journey. ray of distortion is really overpriced. ray of revelation is too narrow. think twice does too little imo, it's fine but I'd just play a bigger draw spell. aaaand that's all of them. Some ok but replaceable draw, some decent grave hate, and one excellent fog.
Noxious revival has the downside of being effectively sorcery speed when used on yourself (unless you have an instant-speed way to draw it), which makes it a bad choice for recurring counterspells, and really only great for recurring board wipes and our scant few permanents, and even then you're down a card. Unfortunately I don't think there are any ways to recur to hand at instant speed, unless you count reap, which is pretty sketchy (although a very high ceiling, obviously, maybe even too high to be honest). As far as the tempo play of putting a reanimation target on their deck, we're more in the business of value plays instead of tempo plays, so I'd much prefer to exile it than delay the inevitable.
Anyway those are my thoughts, I hope you enjoy the deck!
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
cradle of the accursed -
Not really what we're looking for. If it was an instant at least we could have a flash blocker in an emergency.
Desert -
Not a totally useless ability, could screw with some combat math and kills hippo tokens gone rogue, and it's a nice low cost. Obviously better if you've got good fixing.
desert of the indomitable/desert of the mindful/desert of the true -
I like these a decent amount, they have that low-powered-new-card stink that makes a deck really look like a piece of crap worthy of being ignored
dunes of the dead -
This does give us a flash blocker when in combo with one of the sac deserts. Better than cradle since we'd basically never sac cradle to itself. Still mostly useless, though.
Endless Sands -
Solid card but, at least for my current version it doesn't really do anything. Protect stonecloaker, which we're trying to make obselete? lol. Good if you have a decent number of creatures, but that's really stretching the boundaries of this deck.
Grasping dunes -
I guess it's removal for some small number of things, but being a sorcery I'm pretty not into it. OG desert seems a lot better, even if this can ignore combat.
Hashep Oasis -
Speeds up phelddagrif by 1 turn by itself, 2 turns with a buddy desert. Plus it taps for green and is untapped, but doesn't have to hurt us, so the cost is really low. Definitely the best of the utility lands imo.
Hostile Desert -
If we do have a bunch of deserts like the cyclers this could conceivably activate, but other than chumping it's pretty useless.
Ipnu Rivulet -
Comes at a low cost like hashep oasis, but its effect is a lot weaker. Still, could be a way to mill people out, if you have enough deserts and the game is super long.
Painted Bluffs -
Definitely worse than a basic, but it's not the worst land ever fixing-wise. Probably better than a colorless land with no useful abilities at all, like cradle or grasping dunes.
Scavenger Grounds -
Obviously great.
Shefet Dunes -
Same low cost as the others, but it's a 1-turn speed increase for Phelddagrif and that's it. Still pretty solid though.
Sunscorched desert -
Does nothing except slightly annoy someone. No thanks.
Survivor's Encampment -
On the plus side, Phelddagrif is almost always untapped so you have an easy way to fix, but you already need all 3 colors of mana to cast Phelddagrif. Probably worse than painted bluffs on balance.
OK, so after all that, I think the deserts worth playing are:
I think that gives us enough that we should reasonably expect to draw a couple at least, over the course of a game, and more if we're determined.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Actually I meant land search for our utility lands using a couple spells like Sylvan Scrying. Ramp will be made using 2-3 ramping lands.
I agree with the threatening part. Will think about it.
Maybe the (ab)use of Scavenger Grounds is enough. Maybe the aggro-gy player will be the threat of the table abd you don't need to care that much. I will think about it but with a grain of salt.
Agree, Deep Analisys and Moment's Peace are the best options.
You can always use it on opponent's EOT. And you can use Regrowth or someting like that. I like this idea of redundance, will test a couple options as well. All tests will require a tweak on mana base - I expect to have 42ish lands instead of 45.
I will consider all colored options. Maybe an Arabian Nights Desert if I can find one
I did, I will!
Commander: Child of Alara BURGW, Adeliz, the Cinder Wind UR
Tiny Leaders: Gwafa, Hazid Profiteer UW
Regular Pauper: Stompy G, Mono-G Tron G, Infect G
Ok, we got the point: you got an agenda. Will you be so kind as to cut out this highly politicized theme?
I came to mtgsal to read about Magic. If I wanted to read about religion, politics, anti-abortion, male privilege, veganism, creationism, climate change or any other political/religious/worldview nonsense, I wouldn't come to this site.
You registered an account just to post this?
[Primer] Erebos, God of the Dead
HONK HONK
Isn't Mtg Salvation a non-partisan, non-political, non-religious site devoted to Magic: the Gathering? I'm not interested in original poster's worldview or his/her opinions on a controversial scientific matter. And I find it arrogant that I have those opinions shoved down my throat while I'm looking for a Phelddagriff related edh thread, not to mention that his proposal that dissident people should not vote stinks of totalitarianism.
I didn't mean any offense by the section, although I'll admit to going a little over the top with the joke about not voting (although it was just a suggestion not a totalitarian demand). That was brought to my attention so I went ahead and removed it prior to your comment, along with some of the other stuff that was potentially antagonistic. I hope that improves the situation for you. Regardless of what you believe about climate change, I think we can agree that many people see it as a problem, yet despite a broad public desire to do something about it, very little of significant effect is actually being done (whether or not there's anything about which to be done).
I like this section because it's a good metaphor for how Phelddagrif operates - a long term, vague problem that is almost always outweighed by more immediate concerns and personal gain. I'm not really aware of anything else that compares to the effect quite as nicely, so I'd like to leave it in. It's just a single section in a very large primer though - I hope you can see past it.
I am glad people are actually reading all the way through this stuff, though. Sometimes this primer feels like shouting into the wind.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Yeah, and this was pretty arrogant: you suggest to all the people who are either unconvinced by the climate changers' arguments or who see more closer and dangerous challenges, to resign on their political rights. If this would be written in any non-mainstream context, I guess there'd be flak all over the place.
Morevoer it has nothing to do with Mtg, and as I already wrote, I don't want to read about politics, reliogion and other such stuff on a MtG site. I want my game to be a refuge from this affairs, and I don't know why I should be bothered by these things, no matter what's my opinion on a particular matter.
It isn't a good metaphor. For one, it needed an explanation of how the deck operates and that explanation offered everything necessary without any unneeded political stuff. And at least for me it brought no light into the Phgriff problematic, coz it made very little sense, as illustrated here:
See? It brought absolutely nothing possitive into an MtG dsicussion, yet it's a perfect way how to alienate or piss the readers. which in this case was exactly what happened, as I stopped reading any further.
However, being a mainly 1v1 player, and realizing that for the few multigames that I annualy play I wouldn't choose such a difficult deck, further debate is unnecessary and I may return to the lurker status.
Regards.
There are probably some other parallels with the human problem of dealing with long term problems (we just never think they are going to happen, it's a psychological issue almost all people have), but this one is fine. And overwhelmingly supported by science regardless of which side of the aisle you're on.
Fundamentally the science is close enough to settled so I don't think it's a political issue anymore (other than what to do about it, which is where the relationship comes in with Pheld)--and there are tons of scientific parallels in EDH!
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Please do not censor yourself because some people like this guy had his feelings hurt, please do not let this kind of people reap your right to say whatever you want.
They can think and say that global warming is fake and I don't care about their ignorance, I won't ask them to not talk their thoughts, and I will not hold my thoughts because some people have their feelings hurt for those.
So,
Modern: UBFaeries
EDH: RWB Kaalia of the vast
EDH: RWB Edgar Markov The current updated decklist is here
EDH: WUB Oloro, Ageless ascetic The current updated decklist is here
EDH: UWG Phelddagrif, The current updated decklist is here
EDH: WUB Yennett, Cryptic Sovereign The current updated decklist is here
I don't care about your ignorance.
There's a reason why this stuff should not appear here, simply for the same reason why you wouldn't annoy a people playing chess in air raid shelter with screams of "there's a WAR outside, guys, there's a WAR!!!" For the second time, so that even the slower ones got the message: in a context of MtG, I don't give a penny what the scientists say about flogiston, flat Earth, theory of four humours, or anything else. I came here to read about Magic: the Gathering, not to be bothered.
But this absolutely doesn't matter. Even if the climate change science was setled more than the theory of humours, it has nothing to do on a MtG site, I'm not interested in being bothered by it, and I may feel that there are more pressing and urgent dangers than something that may or may not change the living conditions on Earth in centuries. For what it's worth, I may be a climate change scientist myself. Or I may live in a deluge zone and see the climate chnage happening in front of my very eyes. But there's no reason to bother the paople with this kind of stuff, I came here to have fun with cards, not to be shoved down my throat a brimstone and hellfire propaganda. If you can't understand that, so be it.
Good job in turning this edh guide into another politicsa-&-religion-&-stuff thread, there was none on the web until now, and we desperately needed it.
First off, the site dies not have a censor on talking about religion, politics, or what have you, it's just that in most instances that topic is spam because it does not relate to Magic. In this case, I spoke to Dirk privately and asked them to tone down the post because it was crossing that line. Could they have still used a completely different analogy? Perhaps, but this one seemed like an apt metaphor and was within the context of the deck. We moderate with a light touch when at all possible. I felt like the post was not something which needed further attention so I left it alone.
Secondly, I am sorry that you felt offended enough by the post that you created an account just to comment on it, but at this point you are just further exasperating the situation by continuing to focus on it and derail the intent of the thread, which is the deck. You have voiced your criticism of one particular aspect of the primer, and it has been duly noted. If Dirk wishes to change it then it is their choice. But for the sake of the thread, please drop the subject and focus on the actual primer.
If you wish to discuss this further, feel free to PM me and I'll happily talk more about it.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Have you made your deck yet? I'm working off the budget list as well but upgrading the mana base and ramp as well.. I'd love to see a list if you have one and see if I'm on the right path
As I already wrote: it's clearly a pretty difficult deck (or at least the game plan is challenging) and I don't play enough multiplayer games to concentrate on mastering the intricacies of this deck. I liked the basic premise of the deck, and Phelddagriff is a funny card, but I lost my interest due to some stuff cca 3/4 through the primer.
I won't bother you any more.
You really want to hit nonbasics. That's what'll make these spells not just relevant, but actively strong in the lategame. I would shy strongly away from cards like rampant growth, which is basically useless outside of exactly turn 2 (where it's still risky in a competitive situation). And even moreso away from signets, which will just die to our own wraths.
As far as upgrading the manabase, I'd probably focus primarily on utility lands (kor haven, arcane lighthouse, thespian's stage, strip mine, and path of ancestry being your prime targets), especially if you're running some of the aforementioned ramp. Having duals and fetches is great, but pretty unnecessary unless you're playing against cEDH decks on the reg. Not that I don't enjoy having them of course, but they're pretty disproportionate compared to the cost of the rest of the deck.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I'm def diggin the deck.. I'd like it not to make games last 3 hrs linke you say.. 2hrs is about enough for me.
Look forward to building and testing this deck
It can still be tough though. The deck wasn't designed with beating a table all at once in mind. You're usually counting on enemies to kill each other off at least a bit, and depending on how your table operates that could either be pretty quick or very slow. It's especially annoying when people's main wincon is an infinite combo or something that will kill everyone at once, which obviously you're going to have to stop, and they lack other ways to kill people for you. There's always hippos.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
My last playgroup had a lot of walk-ins, and my new playgroup is still, well, new to me, so assuming permission is probably a no-no. I know I tend to be very skeptical when someone asks if they can play un-cards or cards on the banlist, so I probably wouldn't ask that of someone else. But if you're in a stable group that is fine with un-cards, then I think it warrants consideration.
As far as the card itself, it seems pretty decent but not unfair. The redirect is mostly useless, but the other 3 could definitely be useful. I think cryptic command is better (I'd rather have a counter mode than 2 versions of targeted removal, even if one of them functions as a neutralization removal at instant speed, which is nice). The mana cost is, of course, tough and it's too slow to answer a lot of fast threats. It's not the sort of thing that's so powerful I'd want to go around asking special permission for it, but if un-cards are already part of your meta then it seems like a decent inclusion, albeit not an all-star or anything.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
After having built decks that I thought would be as much fun as possible to play against only to have these experiences consistently ruined by players with no regard for good gameplay, I'm now bitter and jaded, and I just want to punish my opponents for their lack of skill and for their complete dependence on lame two-card combos. Naturally, a three-color control deck armed to the teeth with removal, sweepers, and countermagic seemed like a perfect fit. Hence, this deck. It's classic Bant control. (Though maybe Esper would suit me better? I'm unsure.)
My rendition doesn't follow all of your advice to a T, but I tried to keep everything as close to the original as possible, especially when it came to some of the more unusual cards like Pulse of the Fields and Telepathy; I definitely wanted to give those an honest go. That said, I think the biggest difference between your take and mine is that, when the time comes, I am perfectly happy to do the thing or play the card that gives me a commanding lead even if it makes me public enemy number one. After all, virtually no other deck is better equipped to defend itself when in that position anyway.
One card I'm particularly fond of is Rest in Peace. I love playing powerful hate cards that can single-handedly shut down players for building their decks in a hyper-linear fashion, especially if fair decks aren't punished in the process. Sure, just about everyone uses their graveyard to some extent, so a card like Rest in Peace is going to be a little annoying for everyone, but why should I care if I make myself the mortal enemy of the Muldrotha player when their entire deck centers around the graveyard? Experience has taught me that, when it comes to certain decks, it's always feast or famine. You either do everything in your power to stop them, or they completely take over the game, and there's nothing you can do about it, no in-between. Investing as little as two mana to stop an entire deck like that is too worthwhile (and too satisfying) for me not to do even if it makes me a target. And what can Muldrotha do about it anyway? Only focus me? Good luck with that; my entire deck is removal, and theirs is offline. And if my other opponents know what's best for them, they'll leave that Rest in Peace alone. Hell, they may even kick Muldrotha while they're down so that, once they've lost the game, they can then safely dispose of my Rest in Peace later.
One of my biggest concerns right now is that my deck won't generate enough card advantage. Single shot X spells like Sphinx's Revelation and Blue Sun's Zenith can be great, but they're also a bit situational. They require a lot of mana to be worthwhile, and every turn I have to react to some other player is a turn where I'm spending mana and unlikely to cast them. Permanent based card advantage seems like it might be worth pursuing, but it's difficult to support those sorts of cards while simultaneously playing sweepers like Cleansing Nova, Hour of Revelation, and Fracturing Gust. So, right now, I'm not sure what I should do. I'm going to play a good number of games before making any serious changes, but I'm currently contemplating cutting all the noncreature sweepers in favor of more Return to Dust variants so that I might play more artifacts and enchantments.
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
I do think esper would probably be slightly better colors - we get a few nice cards from green but black is probably more versatile, with a lot of good creature removal and strong tutors as the main draws for us. That said, I don't think any of their commanders really hold a candle to Phelddagrif - both in terms of the political element, and also just in terms of actual strength. Chromium is probably the best option, but he's still susceptible to sweepers and tricky blocking/removal situations, and he costs a lot. And when you tell people your plan is to kill them with Chromium commander damage, they take you seriously. When you say the same for Phelddagrif, they usually think you're kidding (or at least that's what usually happens to me).
We may just have to disagree on rest in peace, but by all means give it a shot. Here are my concerns, though:
-First and foremost, Muldrotha may not end up being your primary enemy. If you're running out of answers and another player is crushing you with value, you may well wish you hadn't neutered the Muldrotha player who could otherwise have helped, or at least provided a distraction. I generally think it's best to let your opponents tire themselves out against each other, rather than being too proactive. Single-shot stuff also lets you change course - Maybe you exile graves when Muldrotha is scary, but then someone else becomes the biggest problem and you can lay off Muldrotha so they can help you fight some new threat, rather than continuing to wither under a permanent effect. Even if you do want to use RIP, I'd be judicious in applying it, and don't just slam it out ASAP. If Muldrotha is always the archenemy and consistently overpowers the table even when focused down then this may not be relevant and RIP might be the best option, but my assumption is that this isn't the case.
-Maybe you've already been playing the card and had success with it, but I would personally be concerned about making a permanent enemy of any deck. Muldrotha obviously gets a lot of power from the grave, but most Muldrotha decks I've played against still usually have plenty of cards that I wouldn't want pointed my direction even if they aren't coming back. This is obviously going to depend a lot on the specific Muldrotha deck, but even if they only have a moderate number of threats, that's still potentially a constant drain on your resources when they could be out hurting your enemies instead.
-RIP, as a sorcery-speed answer, doesn't let you hold the threat of activation over them. What I like about stonecloaker and scavenger grounds is that you can sit on them and then continue to allow graveyard-based decks to continue doing their thing, but with the knowledge that you could make their lives hell if you wanted to. So as long as other players are scary and Muldrotha doesn't want to risk fighting on an additional front, they'll probably avoid doing anything that's likely to piss you off. Whereas if you just play RIP, they've got nothing left to lose and fighting you will presumably increase their chances against the other players, since it'll unlock their ability to do stuff again.
-Depending on your exact composition, I think RIP, as an enchantment, is too fragile to bank your whole anti-grave strategy on. Arguably the same is true of stonecloaker and scavenger grounds, but stonecloaker gets to spend most of its time in your hand and only come out when you think you can protect it, and scavenger grounds, being a land, is unlikely to get touched (depending on meta, of course). And, since neither is a problem until you use them, your opponents are less likely to bother worrying too much about them, as long as you're loose enough with the leash. Whereas they're sort of obliged to throw everything they've got at RIP or, barring the ability to remove it, your face.
-Not being able to run global sweepers like hour of rev is, imo, a huge sacrifice. Not only do they provide excellent CA, they're also more flexible than creature-only wipes and ensure you've got the right tool to reset anything and everything. And sure, return to dust is a fine card, but sometimes there are a ton of dangerous artifacts and enchantments that just need to die. Or even if they aren't dangerous, killing off mana rocks along with the scary stuff can be a nice bonus to keep folks in line a bit.
-Having permanent choke holds on people is probably going to leave a bad taste in those peoples' mouths. Sure, having their combo broken will make them unhappy, but I think most people realize that they probably deserved it. Having that one answer might be all you needed to keep the game balanced, but from their perspective you were still a relatively light, if important, presence in the game. But imagine if you had a RIP-style silver bullet for every opponent. Now suddenly you don't look like the guy who did a good thing by stopping that combo, you look like a powerful stax deck that overpowered the table and should be focused down from the word "go" in the next game. Which, hey, is a direction to go. If you really want to crush peoples' spirits, though, I'd suggest something more like my Child of Alara deck, which basically denies people the ability to do anything meaningful, and also virtually guarantees having the right tools to do it in a given game by being incredibly reliable. Child feels like a nasty brutal deck because it is, and it can take the heat that being the archenemy every game entails. Phelddagrif maybe can, depending on the meta, but the point of the deck is to be constructed in such a way that it never FEELS like too much of a threat, so that even after it's won game after game, it still seems like the wrong move to go after the friendly purple hippo. And that's just going to be a much tougher sell with RIP and the like. If you do manage to choke Muldrotha out of the game, I bet they're a lot more likely to come after you next time. And you might not have your RIP that game.
As far as value, I think there's a few permanents like Telepathy that are worth it even if they will probably eventually die to one of your own sweepers, but for the most part you can run very light on artifacts/enchantments and still do pretty well. Stuff like SDT don't really count, and pulse of the grid/whispers of the muse are great from the hand, and of course arch of orazca is an all-star land (although stuff like kor haven can do a lot of work as virtual-CA). Stick in a few of the best single-shot draw spells (I'm a big fan of dig through time), tutors for land/instants to hit your reusable stuff, and you should be in good shape. Sure, permanents provide some of the best CA (sylvan library comes to mind) but usually you get plenty of time to use them before you're forced to fire off a board wipe. A lot of time, by the time you do need to fire the board wipe, you've already drawn into another one anyway, making them a lot less important. I think you CAN make the deck fairly artifact/enchantment heavy and eschew global wipes, but I think it exposes you to more risks, both in terms of giving your opponents targets, and in terms of being unable to resolve situations where there are multiple dangerous noncreatures. At a minimum, I'd run flexible wipes like cleansing nova and austere command. Even if it means wiping out your own value when choosing the noncreature modes, it's better than dying.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
PS. I'm a little surprised this sort of 'politic-ing' is so hard to spot. But then, in multiplayer commander I delight in going after people forming alliances and obviously helping each others along. Especially if they are being very honest with each other. That way it's easier to encourage a state of board anarchy which suits my izzet-ness. Because eventually I feel my deck hits a stage where I can control all players at once. It's just very hard to get to. I'd definitely like to play an expert hippo commander one day. I've never seen him in action.
It's perhaps worth pointing out the deck rarely "forms alliances". Usually it's fighting against whoever is the scariest, as is anyone else who's reasonable competent, so their interests do align at that point, but outright allying and dumping hippos, life, and cards on them is pretty rare. It's only really necessary if they're either being particularly dense, or if one player in particular is incredibly powerful and we're forced to show our true strength to fight them.
But usually we're just chilling, killing critical pieces when necessary or board wiping if things seem like they're getting out of hand, but otherwise just fading into the background and waiting for our enemies to kill each other for us.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6