In multiplayer Commander, the two driving forces behind decks, the "gas", are ramp and card advantage. Mono-red has largely been dependent on artifacts for the ramp and has endeavored to create its own brands of card advantage in looting effects and "impulse draw" recently, but Hour of Devastation is giving us a new commander that helps red branch out of its dependencies. Neheb, the Eternal creates a wonderful way for red to profit off of what it does best - blasting peoples' faces for lots and lots of damage. Neheb does so without breaking the color pie - he is explosive and his advantage is temporary, but we can make that temporary advantage work into the long game.
In my mind, there are two main ways to build Neheb. The first is what I'll dub "the Goggles version," the deck that will profit most off of instants and sorceries being cast to damage each opponent followed up by much larger spells like Banefire and Comet Storm off of Neheb's trigger, and each deck should run a copy of Pyromancer's Goggles. The second way, my way which I'll call "the Purphoros version," is permanent-based. While the Goggles version is well and good in its extermination of opposing life totals, I believe it will be wholly linear and glassy. Linearity in multiplayer commander is the death of fun for both your opponents and, sooner or later, you, and being a glass cannon means its strategy can be answered with silver bullet cards like counterspells, consistent removal of Neheb, and special fog variants. However, using our surplus mana to invest in permanents that will keep the damage train running will not only diversify your play experience with the deck but it will make your game plan far more resistant to opposing strategies.
Quick bit of personal history before heading to the decklist. My favorite color in Magic always has been and always will be red. The three favorite things to do in the color are dealing huge amounts of damage to peoples' faces, copying things, and profiting from damage. I've run a Kiki-Jiki deck for years and I get to tick off "lots of damage" and "copying things" with that deck, and I've built many other decks that turn damage into life gain and again into more damage, but Neheb will be the first deck where I turn damage into mana, unless you include the short period I ran a Wort deck that did a bit of that. My point is that a Neheb deck does things that I absolutely adore doing in Commander, so why not have that fun?
Something to note about playing Neheb, and another reason why I think the Purphoros version is better than the Goggles version is that, as the game goes on and players get knocked out, there is a smaller pool of opponents to lose life and cards like Purphoros, Chandra, Torch of Defiance, and Tunneling Geopede become less effective. However, surviving to the late game is even worse for the Goggles version because it will only have spells in hand to power out, making less mana on Neheb triggers and thus becoming much less effective all around. The Purphoros version triumphs here because it's built to put creatures on the board and creatures are repeatable sources of damage whereas instants and sorceries, without special recursion, will only deal damage once.
After reading through this, you might think, "But Skorchd, you're running some instants and sorceries too!" Yes, because they're almost too good to not include but I am not building around them. Fiery Confluence is certainly one of the best cards in any Neheb deck because it can either dome all of your opponents for 6 and make 18 mana, destroy 3 bothersome artifacts, or somewhere in between.
I posted a very similar list a couple weeks ago. I also think the creature route may be the way to go for the same reasons you stated. Checked your list vs mine and I think you have all the pieces I thought were critical except for Relentless Assault. I didnt include it in my list for power reasons but any optimized list should have it.
I posted a very similar list a couple weeks ago. I also think the creature route may be the way to go for the same reasons you stated. Checked your list vs mine and I think you have all the pieces I thought were critical except for Relentless Assault. I didnt include it in my list for power reasons but any optimized list should have it.
Yeah, I decided to stay away from any extra combat steps, even if there's only one card of them that goes infinite with Neheb. It's just easier politics to be the guy that doesn't run infinite combos. I don't intend to optimize the list as that often implies that it'll be cutthroat competitive, but I do intend to make it as fun as possible.
I posted a very similar list a couple weeks ago. I also think the creature route may be the way to go for the same reasons you stated. Checked your list vs mine and I think you have all the pieces I thought were critical except for Relentless Assault. I didnt include it in my list for power reasons but any optimized list should have it.
Can you share the link to your list with me so I can take a look?
I just bought a foil copy of this crazy dude and am looking forward to making this deck!
There's a lot of cool ideas in the list posted here, Strionic Resonator with Neb-daddys ability seems pretty nuts.
Even the doofy little uncommons like tunneling geopede and fanatic of mogis seems real strong in a deck like this. Time to count to 40
I've got a ton of play in since I originally posted the list and I can definitely say it's as fun as I imagined. Despite my worries about being against a single opponent, so far it's performed well in quick 1v1s since it can gain momentum and easily run away with it. In multiplayer, so far, it hasn't been totally focused down yet but rather works well in spreading the love around and can act as an instigator in getting the game moving, but it's also been proficient in punishing decks that are about to win or have too great a board position.
In the games I've played where I've landed a Steel Hellkite, that Science Dragon has been absolutely indispensable in leveling the playing field. As I'd hoped, Neheb pumps enough mana out to make Science Dragon's second activated ability very affordable, sometimes activating it two or three times at once.
Adds: Runehorn Hellkite - Having a big, flying beater's nice but turning that beater into a fresh hand after it hits the 'yard is very nice. This deck can always use something to grease its wheels
? - I've actually forgotten what my second add to the deck was and I don't have immediate access to it right now. I'll edit this part and add it in when I do figure out what it was.
Cuts: Magmatic Force - This big guy's pretty cool and I'd imagined suiting him up with a Basilisk Collar for fun and value but I ended up dropping the Kumano package before I even posted this list and Force was a hanger-on from it. If we could concentrate all of that damage into our upkeep, he'd be great in the deck, but alas, that's not a thing. Oblivion Sower - I've really wanted to use and abuse this card for a long time and I thought this might be a good deck for it since it synergizes with Strionic Resonator and Grenzo, Havoc Raiser (when he hits lands) well. While that ramp would be nice, I just need more synergies before I include him.
From here on out, I'm probably going to dig up an old copy of Tower of Fortunes to keep the cards coming for the deck. I ran out of copies of Impact Tremors before building the deck, but I've got a foil copy of that in the mail now so it'll be included pretty soon.
I was chatting with one of my friends about how to improve the deck and he jokingly suggested Dark Depths as a good mana sink. I kind of liked the idea, so I put a low bid on a copy on ebay, and, to my surprise, I actually won it. Since I've also got a Crucible of Worlds in my collection in need of a home, I'm going to run that package. For Dark Depths, I'll also add in Thespian's Stage and Mirage Mirror. Crucible will be almost too useful with all of the Cycling and utility lands in the deck, especially in conjunction with Buried Ruin and Haunted Fengraf in the late game. I'll be acquiring a copy of Command Beacon very soon too to keep Neheb cheap.
This is an excellent deck and a fun deck. Neheb is, without a doubt, among the best mono-red commanders to ever be printed.
what about aggravated assault for potentially infinite combat+main2 steps?
Aggravated Assault is objectively very good in Neheb but I've got a personal policy of not running infinite combos. It makes playing politics in the game so much easier when opponents know you don't have that gun to their head.
Neheb has been showing up on some streams lately, and he's disgusting lol. Tower of Fortunes seems sweet!
I know! It's so great. Neheb's definitely my favorite recent commander to play and to watch. And making Tower of Fortunes affordable is a feat unto itself.
I remembered the card I noted as a question mark in my last post, it was Bonfire of the Damned. Bonfire should be a fun blow out card pre or post combat, though I'm wary of how effective it'll actually be. The card might be on the chopping block in the near future. Additionally, I cut two Mountains for Desert of the Fervent and Ramunap Ruins.
I have and I love the card, but I also run that in my Kiki-Jiki deck and I want to be careful Neheb doesn't overlap with Kiki-Jiki too much for the sake of fun and diversity. If my other deck didn't exist, I'd probably run Flamerush Rider, Kiki-Jiki himself, Flameshadow Conjuring, and a few others in this deck.
Bonfire of the Damned - Situationally, it's really good. Every other time, it's pretty meh. Yeah, we can make tons of mana, but we've usually dealt with the big threats by the point we cast this.
I run a burn like Neheb, and for a slightly under tuned deck, it does what it does well. However I am running issues with card draw. Looking towards a Knollspine Dragon. I run loot draw, but would be wheels be better in this case?
I run a burn like Neheb, and for a slightly under tuned deck, it does what it does well. However I am running issues with card draw. Looking towards a Knollspine Dragon. I run loot draw, but would be wheels be better in this case?
Knollspine Dragon is always a good idea. Running 100% Wheels I don't think would be the best idea since it benefits your opponents while, simultaneously, probably peeving them off. However, asymmetrical Wheels (like Knollspine) are fantastic for refilling your hand and keeping up your momentum.
In my experienced opinion, I'd recommend running any asymmetrical Wheels as you can, a few symmetrical Wheels, and red's exile-play mechanic (a la Outpost Siege, Chandra, Pyromaster, Commune with Lava, etc). Including Alhammarret's Archive with looting too works well (it's a dream with Daretti), so if you're concentrating on Wheels and looting, I'd recommend Archive too.
Edit - I should mention that there aren't many asymmetrical Wheels available. Knollspine is obviously one. [card]Chandra,
Flamecaller[/card]'s 0 ability gets some advantage. Bedlam Reveler gives your hand a little refill and, running a burn package, should cost less on average. Collective Defiance works that way when you target yourself. Fateful Showdown both blasts an opponent's face and gives you a Wheel. Slate of Ancestry does work with a good board position but obviously isn't too effective in a burn deck. Those are all of the asymmetrical Wheels I can find in mono-red. As I mentioned earlier, Archive is near invaluable in getting you more card advantage in mono-red with looting effects, as well as small time Wheels.
Have you considered Crimson Honor Guard, Disrupt Decorum and Curse of Opulence from the new Commander set? Crimson Honor Guard can punish slower decks, and Disrupt Decorum can clear the path for a Neheb-led Alpha Strike. Curse of Opulence just nets you extra mana, helping your x spells.
Have you considered Crimson Honor Guard, Disrupt Decorum and Curse of Opulence from the new Commander set? Crimson Honor Guard can punish slower decks, and Disrupt Decorum can clear the path for a Neheb-led Alpha Strike. Curse of Opulence just nets you extra mana, helping your x spells.
Actually I'm probably going to rock Bloodsworn Steward to get Neheb rolling right out of the command zone and I might run Curse of Opulence for the bit of ramp it provides but probably not the others, at least not in this deck. The thing about Crimson Honor Guard and Disrupt Decorum in synergizing in this deck is, yes, they cause lots of damage to be dealt, but I don't get to profit off of any of said damage (unless the off chance I get Loxodon Warhammer equipped to Honor Guard occurs). Putting them in would take spots I could have for cards that deal damage during my turn and to get me loads of mana like the deck wants.
I will, however, definitely be rocking Crimson Honor Guard and Disrupt Decorum in other decks. I've been tossing around the idea of a Mogis Group Slug deck for years now and they'd be great fun in that potential build.
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In multiplayer Commander, the two driving forces behind decks, the "gas", are ramp and card advantage. Mono-red has largely been dependent on artifacts for the ramp and has endeavored to create its own brands of card advantage in looting effects and "impulse draw" recently, but Hour of Devastation is giving us a new commander that helps red branch out of its dependencies. Neheb, the Eternal creates a wonderful way for red to profit off of what it does best - blasting peoples' faces for lots and lots of damage. Neheb does so without breaking the color pie - he is explosive and his advantage is temporary, but we can make that temporary advantage work into the long game.
In my mind, there are two main ways to build Neheb. The first is what I'll dub "the Goggles version," the deck that will profit most off of instants and sorceries being cast to damage each opponent followed up by much larger spells like Banefire and Comet Storm off of Neheb's trigger, and each deck should run a copy of Pyromancer's Goggles. The second way, my way which I'll call "the Purphoros version," is permanent-based. While the Goggles version is well and good in its extermination of opposing life totals, I believe it will be wholly linear and glassy. Linearity in multiplayer commander is the death of fun for both your opponents and, sooner or later, you, and being a glass cannon means its strategy can be answered with silver bullet cards like counterspells, consistent removal of Neheb, and special fog variants. However, using our surplus mana to invest in permanents that will keep the damage train running will not only diversify your play experience with the deck but it will make your game plan far more resistant to opposing strategies.
Quick bit of personal history before heading to the decklist. My favorite color in Magic always has been and always will be red. The three favorite things to do in the color are dealing huge amounts of damage to peoples' faces, copying things, and profiting from damage. I've run a Kiki-Jiki deck for years and I get to tick off "lots of damage" and "copying things" with that deck, and I've built many other decks that turn damage into life gain and again into more damage, but Neheb will be the first deck where I turn damage into mana, unless you include the short period I ran a Wort deck that did a bit of that. My point is that a Neheb deck does things that I absolutely adore doing in Commander, so why not have that fun?
1 Neheb, the Eternal
Lands
20 Mountain
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
1 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
1 Spinerock Knoll
1 Forgotten Cave
1 Smoldering Crater
1 Desert of the Fervent
1 Terrain Generator
1 Myriad Landscape
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Temple of the False God
1 Buried Ruin
1 Haunted Fengraf
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Ramunap Ruins
1 Throne of the High City
Artifacts
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Wayfarer's Bauble
1 O-Naginata
1 Fire Diamond
1 Coldsteel Heart
1 Mind Stone
1 Strionic Resonator
1 Cryptolith Fragment
1 Worn Powerstone
1 Tenza, Godo's Maul
1 Loxodon Warhammer
1 Sword of Vengeance
1 Hedron Archive
1 Oracle's Vault
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Loreseeker's Stone
1 Akroma's Memorial
1 Generator Servant
1 Grenzo, Havoc Raiser
1 Burnished Hart
1 Pilgrim's Eye
1 Sin Prodder
1 Magus of the Wheel
1 Tunneling Geopede
1 Viashino Heretic
1 Archetype of Aggression
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Anger
1 Fanatic of Mogis
1 Purphoros, God of the Forge
1 Embermaw Hellion
1 Warchief Giant
1 Stormbreath Dragon
1 Urabrask the Hidden
1 Heartless Hidetsugu
1 Combustible Gearhulk
1 Hellkite Tyrant
1 Rapacious One
1 Runehorn Hellkite
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Knollspine Dragon
1 Skyline Despot
1 Chancellor of the Forge
1 Artisan of Kozilek
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Outpost Siege
1 Pyrohemia
1 Koth of the Hammer
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Berserkers' Onslaught
1 Gratuitous Violence
1 Warstorm Surge
Spells
1 Spark of Creativity
1 Price of Progress
1 Act on Impulse
1 Fiery Confluence
1 Chandra's Ignition
1 Reforge the Soul
1 Commune with Lava
1 Comet Storm
1 Bonfire of the Damned
Something to note about playing Neheb, and another reason why I think the Purphoros version is better than the Goggles version is that, as the game goes on and players get knocked out, there is a smaller pool of opponents to lose life and cards like Purphoros, Chandra, Torch of Defiance, and Tunneling Geopede become less effective. However, surviving to the late game is even worse for the Goggles version because it will only have spells in hand to power out, making less mana on Neheb triggers and thus becoming much less effective all around. The Purphoros version triumphs here because it's built to put creatures on the board and creatures are repeatable sources of damage whereas instants and sorceries, without special recursion, will only deal damage once.
After reading through this, you might think, "But Skorchd, you're running some instants and sorceries too!" Yes, because they're almost too good to not include but I am not building around them. Fiery Confluence is certainly one of the best cards in any Neheb deck because it can either dome all of your opponents for 6 and make 18 mana, destroy 3 bothersome artifacts, or somewhere in between.
Maybes/Acquires
1 Armillary Sphere
1 Burn Away
1 Chandra, Pyrogenius
1 Dictate of the Twin Gods
1 Doubling Cube
1 Dragon Breath
1 Flame Rift
1 Hammerfist Giant
1 Hoard-Smelter Dragon
1 Inferno Titan
1 Lord of Shatterskull Pass
1 Memory Jar
1 Mindmoil
1 Sword of the Animist
1 Valakut Invoker
1 Kumano, Master Yamabushi
1 Dark Depths
1 Crucible of Worlds
So what do you think? I know I'm most looking forward to activating Heartless Hidetsugu into some untouched life totals and then casting Commune with Lava for 20 to virtually Gen Wave in mono red. Also, can't wait for Ixalan to play Sunbird's Invocation and Aegriah's Marauders in the deck.
Questions, comments, concerns, and constructive criticisms are welcome!
Yeah, I decided to stay away from any extra combat steps, even if there's only one card of them that goes infinite with Neheb. It's just easier politics to be the guy that doesn't run infinite combos. I don't intend to optimize the list as that often implies that it'll be cutthroat competitive, but I do intend to make it as fun as possible.
Can you share the link to your list with me so I can take a look?
I just bought a foil copy of this crazy dude and am looking forward to making this deck!
There's a lot of cool ideas in the list posted here, Strionic Resonator with Neb-daddys ability seems pretty nuts.
Even the doofy little uncommons like tunneling geopede and fanatic of mogis seems real strong in a deck like this. Time to count to 40
BGGRock
Modern
BRGJund
BBGRock
Here's my list. It is very similar to this threads.
I've got a ton of play in since I originally posted the list and I can definitely say it's as fun as I imagined. Despite my worries about being against a single opponent, so far it's performed well in quick 1v1s since it can gain momentum and easily run away with it. In multiplayer, so far, it hasn't been totally focused down yet but rather works well in spreading the love around and can act as an instigator in getting the game moving, but it's also been proficient in punishing decks that are about to win or have too great a board position.
In the games I've played where I've landed a Steel Hellkite, that Science Dragon has been absolutely indispensable in leveling the playing field. As I'd hoped, Neheb pumps enough mana out to make Science Dragon's second activated ability very affordable, sometimes activating it two or three times at once.
Adds:
Runehorn Hellkite - Having a big, flying beater's nice but turning that beater into a fresh hand after it hits the 'yard is very nice. This deck can always use something to grease its wheels
? - I've actually forgotten what my second add to the deck was and I don't have immediate access to it right now. I'll edit this part and add it in when I do figure out what it was.
Cuts:
Magmatic Force - This big guy's pretty cool and I'd imagined suiting him up with a Basilisk Collar for fun and value but I ended up dropping the Kumano package before I even posted this list and Force was a hanger-on from it. If we could concentrate all of that damage into our upkeep, he'd be great in the deck, but alas, that's not a thing.
Oblivion Sower - I've really wanted to use and abuse this card for a long time and I thought this might be a good deck for it since it synergizes with Strionic Resonator and Grenzo, Havoc Raiser (when he hits lands) well. While that ramp would be nice, I just need more synergies before I include him.
From here on out, I'm probably going to dig up an old copy of Tower of Fortunes to keep the cards coming for the deck. I ran out of copies of Impact Tremors before building the deck, but I've got a foil copy of that in the mail now so it'll be included pretty soon.
I was chatting with one of my friends about how to improve the deck and he jokingly suggested Dark Depths as a good mana sink. I kind of liked the idea, so I put a low bid on a copy on ebay, and, to my surprise, I actually won it. Since I've also got a Crucible of Worlds in my collection in need of a home, I'm going to run that package. For Dark Depths, I'll also add in Thespian's Stage and Mirage Mirror. Crucible will be almost too useful with all of the Cycling and utility lands in the deck, especially in conjunction with Buried Ruin and Haunted Fengraf in the late game. I'll be acquiring a copy of Command Beacon very soon too to keep Neheb cheap.
This is an excellent deck and a fun deck. Neheb is, without a doubt, among the best mono-red commanders to ever be printed.
Aggravated Assault is objectively very good in Neheb but I've got a personal policy of not running infinite combos. It makes playing politics in the game so much easier when opponents know you don't have that gun to their head.
I know! It's so great. Neheb's definitely my favorite recent commander to play and to watch. And making Tower of Fortunes affordable is a feat unto itself.
My deviantART; if you're interested in alters, PM me!
Some time in the next week or so, I'm going to make some cuts for Impact Tremors, Dark Depths, Crucible of Worlds, and maybe Thespian's Stage and Mirage Mirror.
I have and I love the card, but I also run that in my Kiki-Jiki deck and I want to be careful Neheb doesn't overlap with Kiki-Jiki too much for the sake of fun and diversity. If my other deck didn't exist, I'd probably run Flamerush Rider, Kiki-Jiki himself, Flameshadow Conjuring, and a few others in this deck.
Adds:
Cuts:
Lymphoma Cancer Survivor!
Knollspine Dragon is always a good idea. Running 100% Wheels I don't think would be the best idea since it benefits your opponents while, simultaneously, probably peeving them off. However, asymmetrical Wheels (like Knollspine) are fantastic for refilling your hand and keeping up your momentum.
In my experienced opinion, I'd recommend running any asymmetrical Wheels as you can, a few symmetrical Wheels, and red's exile-play mechanic (a la Outpost Siege, Chandra, Pyromaster, Commune with Lava, etc). Including Alhammarret's Archive with looting too works well (it's a dream with Daretti), so if you're concentrating on Wheels and looting, I'd recommend Archive too.
Edit - I should mention that there aren't many asymmetrical Wheels available. Knollspine is obviously one. [card]Chandra,
Flamecaller[/card]'s 0 ability gets some advantage. Bedlam Reveler gives your hand a little refill and, running a burn package, should cost less on average. Collective Defiance works that way when you target yourself. Fateful Showdown both blasts an opponent's face and gives you a Wheel. Slate of Ancestry does work with a good board position but obviously isn't too effective in a burn deck. Those are all of the asymmetrical Wheels I can find in mono-red. As I mentioned earlier, Archive is near invaluable in getting you more card advantage in mono-red with looting effects, as well as small time Wheels.
Actually I'm probably going to rock Bloodsworn Steward to get Neheb rolling right out of the command zone and I might run Curse of Opulence for the bit of ramp it provides but probably not the others, at least not in this deck. The thing about Crimson Honor Guard and Disrupt Decorum in synergizing in this deck is, yes, they cause lots of damage to be dealt, but I don't get to profit off of any of said damage (unless the off chance I get Loxodon Warhammer equipped to Honor Guard occurs). Putting them in would take spots I could have for cards that deal damage during my turn and to get me loads of mana like the deck wants.
I will, however, definitely be rocking Crimson Honor Guard and Disrupt Decorum in other decks. I've been tossing around the idea of a Mogis Group Slug deck for years now and they'd be great fun in that potential build.