In my eyes Sensei's Divining Top and Dark Tutelage just have different purposes - one lets you increase card quality, plan ahead, and know when you might want to shuffle your library; the other increases your card draw rate (technically not draw, but you get what I mean). So I think it is rather hard to compare them. SDT does certain things extremely well, but obviously doesn't net you cards - Dark Tutelage is designed specifically to do that, so if that's the goal, then DT is a good pick. However, SDT does many things that DT cannot, and although the cost accumulates, it can be distributed over multiple turns, it protects itself, and also you can get an immediate benefit from it (whereas DT does not do anything until 1 turn later).
The Liege is definitely a swing slot right now. It doesn't do anything perfectly, but currently it does multiple things quite well (while being a creature itself). Every time I come to make cuts I keep thinking it should go... but on the battlefield it just gets work done. In theory Ophiomancer has the potential to generate more snakes, but I've found that in practice this rarely ever matters, and the pump / guaranteed token every turn is simply better.
creakwood liege:
if that pump really is relevant you win by combat and not lockdown. this in that vein is a finisher instead a spike attached to a set.
I have to respectfully disagree with you here - unless you are reliably and deterministically destroying every opponent's permanents (something we don't do here), winning by "lockdown" is... just not really a thing. There are too many low-CMC answers in this format, and it is only a matter of time before your opponents will worm their way out of the stax/lock and turn the tables on you. Short of a god-hand, there is no such thing as a hard-lock... only soft-locks that put you on the clock. Winning quickly is very important and if you're not able to do so, eventually they will break your lock and simply combo off.
Re: Uba Mask, Orb of Dreams, Choke, Tsunami, Perish, Virtue's Ruin: I don't tend to favor these since they are relatively expensive, narrow, and tend to only disturb one or two opponents (as opposed to ALL of them). Stopping the blue player from comboing off sounds good, but doesn't really matter if another opponent just Ad Nauseam combos you the next turn anyway.
EDIT: You've got me thinking and I think Chains of Mephistopheles would be an excellent tool against many of the quick-win combos in the format. Unfortunately it's another high-dollar and scarce rare, with no great budget replacement anywhere to be found around that CMC... but many combos just don't have a way to deal with it short of removing it. Unfortunately it does not solve Ad Naus however...
Currently on my mind for next edits:
+1 Chains of Mephistopheles
+1 Chalice of the Void - At X=1, this shuts down many general answers, removal spells, draw / cantrips, and tutors of our opponents. We run relatively few spells at 1 CMC (2-3 is the sweet spot), so it does not affect us nearly as much as many other competitive lists. Alternatively, it can simply shut down opponents' combos (if you know they are coming), and recursion sneaks around this too.
+1 Imperial Seal
-1 Lightning Greaves
-1 ??? (Green Sun's Zenith?)
-1 ??? (Mirri's Guile? Wood Elves?)
I guess I'll clarify my opinion a bit with a thought experiment - assuming you cast Hulk (with no Meren on the field), you've got him to sacrifice to The Abyss, plus two other creatures which he finds. So, the rest of your board position remains unaffected for three turns. If Hulk stays dead after that, then Sheoldred continues to provide additional value; but for the first three turns, she does not provide any more support than Hulk does (at least as far as protecting your board). In the long run Sheoldred will provide more sacrifice fodder - but this does is not realized until your fourth turn and onwards, AND you don't have the benefit of 2x free ETB tutors stapled onto her. This is all assuming no Meren in play. Also, he finds the other two creatures when he dies, regardless, so the payout is more or less guaranteed - whereas if someone has fast removal for Sheoldred, you ultimately haven't netted anything off her.
If you DO have Meren out, Hulk is far stronger than Sheoldred (as far as sustainability is concerned) since he provides 3x the sacrifice fodder (himself + 2 creatures) each turn compared to the single recursion of Sheoldred. He can find more ramp if needed to re-cast Meren if she does eat removal (so he helps solve that problem), while also being able to pull in Creakwood Liege to further protect yourself from The Abyss and other symmetric effects if necessary. So while he technically isn't a "recursion" engine, the purpose of our recursion is largely to maintain fuel for our sacrifice effects, and in that regard I actually think he is much better than Sheoldred.
I'll concede that I hadn't really considered Protean Hulk's ability to net three sacrifice effects. That's a pretty good point. However, the ability to stay ahead of the Stax was only one of two big points I was trying to drive home too, I simply focused on the Stax element in that second post because I felt like I did a poor job of explaining it. True recursion was the thing I most wanted to draw attention to.
Even then, when looking at the decklist, I still don't feel like we are really the deck best suited to profit from that. Of all the Meren build's, this one is the most light on creatures. There are 23 valid targets for Protean Hulk to actively look for. Furthermore, this deck doesn't win through infinite combos, it wins through raw combat damage. Between those 23 targets, very few of them are real threats. The rest are either designed so that you got card advantage through entering the battlefield, or it creates board advantage by being sacrificed. Both of those ability types only become ridiculous through being able to use them again and again. Braggo Stax does it through blink. Meren does it through recursion.
Again, it sees the play that it does in those other builds because it essentially ends the game right then and there when it goes off in the combo version. Here, more than likely, it's going to grab ETB fodder and there comes a point in time where that ETB fodder becomes threatening only because you are able to keep using it through true recursion.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not entirely sold on the idea of a fat creature in the deck at all. Rather, I feel that Meren is so fragile that it's important to diversify our means of grabbing things from the cemetery. I don't think we'd be having this discussion at all if Recurring Nightmare was still legal. Alas, it's not, so we have to come up with something else to fill the gap. I get that Protean Hulk grabs stuff from the deck, but so does a not insignificant amount of the rest of the deck. Ironically, the ability that seems the least present here is the ability to actually reach into the cemetery and reuse resources. To the extent that I support any idea of fatty within the build is because the overall design seems very light on threats.
In my eyes Sensei's Divining Top and Dark Tutelage just have different purposes - one lets you increase card quality, plan ahead, and know when you might want to shuffle your library; the other increases your card draw rate (technically not draw, but you get what I mean). So I think it is rather hard to compare them. SDT does certain things extremely well, but obviously doesn't net you cards - Dark Tutelage is designed specifically to do that, so if that's the goal, then DT is a good pick. However, SDT does many things that DT cannot, and although the cost accumulates, it can be distributed over multiple turns, it protects itself, and also you can get an immediate benefit from it (whereas DT does not do anything until 1 turn later).
The Liege is definitely a swing slot right now. It doesn't do anything perfectly, but currently it does multiple things quite well (while being a creature itself). Every time I come to make cuts I keep thinking it should go... but on the battlefield it just gets work done. In theory Ophiomancer has the potential to generate more snakes, but I've found that in practice this rarely ever matters, and the pump / guaranteed token every turn is simply better.
creakwood liege:
if that pump really is relevant you win by combat and not lockdown. this in that vein is a finisher instead a spike attached to a set.
I have to respectfully disagree with you here - unless you are reliably and deterministically destroying every opponent's permanents (something we don't do here), winning by "lockdown" is... just not really a thing. There are too many low-CMC answers in this format, and it is only a matter of time before your opponents will worm their way out of the stax/lock and turn the tables on you. Short of a god-hand, there is no such thing as a hard-lock... only soft-locks that put you on the clock. Winning quickly is very important and if you're not able to do so, eventually they will break your lock and simply combo off.
Re: Uba Mask, Orb of Dreams, Choke, Tsunami, Perish, Virtue's Ruin: I don't tend to favor these since they are relatively expensive, narrow, and tend to only disturb one or two opponents (as opposed to ALL of them). Stopping the blue player from comboing off sounds good, but doesn't really matter if another opponent just Ad Nauseam combos you the next turn anyway.
EDIT: You've got me thinking and I think Chains of Mephistopheles would be an excellent tool against many of the quick-win combos in the format. Unfortunately it's another high-dollar and scarce rare, with no great budget replacement anywhere to be found around that CMC... but many combos just don't have a way to deal with it short of removing it. Unfortunately it does not solve Ad Naus however...
Currently on my mind for next edits:
+1 Chains of Mephistopheles
+1 Chalice of the Void - At X=1, this shuts down many general answers, removal spells, draw / cantrips, and tutors of our opponents. We run relatively few spells at 1 CMC (2-3 is the sweet spot), so it does not affect us nearly as much as many other competitive lists. Alternatively, it can simply shut down opponents' combos (if you know they are coming), and recursion sneaks around this too.
+1 Imperial Seal
-1 Lightning Greaves
-1 ??? (Green Sun's Zenith?)
-1 ??? (Mirri's Guile? Wood Elves?)
Of those three, Lightning Greaves should probably stay. I'm not going to beat a dead-horse on talking more about the fragility of Meren. You've already done so at length in the primer and in several replies. She's the only thing that allows continuous use of the cemetery. Someone, at some point, is going to use something that invokes the Commander tax.
As an aside, I saw that you removed Volrath's Stronghold at one point, Firemind. Any insight into why it was removed? I don't have as much time to playtest as I'd like.
I definitely agree that we could use more recursion - but currently I've come to the conclusion that there just isn't anything out there that quite fits the bill on what we need. Sheoldred kinda does, but with two big weaknesses:
Triggering on upkeep, not end step, means there's a big risk she just gets removed and you get nothing for your 5BB. If she triggered on end step like Meren, the "guaranteed payout" would be much higher, but not triggering until your next turn means she often just dies and you get nothing for your efforts.
You're paying extra to have a better The Abyss stapled on, when often you don't need it and would prefer to have just the recursion and a cheaper creature... unfortunately there isn't anything out there (besides Meren) that has just that!
If Sheoldred came for 3BB, without the sacrifice effect, and triggered on end-step, this would almost surely be a no-brainer... currently though, neither Sheoldred nor Hulk do exactly the right thing, I've just found more instant ROI (and less risk) from Hulk since he pays out right away and can help you find the right utility creature. Usually he finds Bone Shredder, Caustic Caterpillar, Viridian Zealot, Fleshbag Marauder, Eternal Witness, Manglehorn, Mindslicer, etc.... there isn't a huge selection of creatures - just a handful of those that can hit our opponents at the right pain-points.
I'm still torn on whether to remove Greaves - my playgroup has been fluctuating recently and the removal has shifted more towards artifact / enchantment removal and less to creatures (and, lots of 1-cmc answers). I think it comes down to this:
If the creature removal in your meta is largely Pongify, Swords to Plowshares, Fatal Push, etc., along with 1-cmc counterspells and things like Nature's Claim and Fragmentize, then Chalice for X=1 seems the better choice (because it protects Meren AND your other spells)
If your opponents are running a diversity of removal at various CMCs and it is largely directed towards Meren, then Greaves is the right choice
The nice thing about Chalice is that, the more competitive the meta, the stronger it is - because people will be running more 1-drops and 1-CMC counterspells / removal spells. So, if you can manage to get it to stick at X=1, many opponents may simply not be able to play 1/4 of their deck (the 1/4 that contains most of their answers and removal).
Still not quite sure where the sweet spot lies... there are still a few other swing spots in the list though (Blood Funnel) so perhaps that will come out and both chalice and greaves will go in!
Blood Moon is played in my meta, so nonbasics really need to justify themselves (high use rate) to stick around
It's actually somewhat expensive for a fairly slow effect (that occupies your draw)
Simply.... I always had something better to do with my mana.
That's not to say it's a bad card, simply that it didn't do enough for me to justify its place over a basic land! Otherwise, the nonbasic hate just hurt too much...
I won't dismiss that the fact that it sacrifices your draw. That's a pretty significant drawback and without Necropotence (best case) or Confidant, Sylvan Library, or Phyrexian Arena, it's hard to get around.
On the other hand, it's a ridiculously versatile option. Best case scenario, you are using it to reuse toolbox options. Worst case scenario, you are giving up a draw (assuming no engine in place) to create a permanent Command Beacon that prevents you from ever paying for a Commander tax on Meren, which definitely helps ease up the burden on her fragility and helps to free us of our also limited mana resources.
I don't know that all of that necessarily warrants a spot for the Stronghold, but just want to highlight its versatility. It also helps close the recursion gap, albeit as a much slower option.
Another possible slower option is Sword of Light and Shadow. I like Feast and Famine more because it untaps lands, but there is something to be said for L&S. Protection from white is a pretty big deal, it's the only removal that gets around our recursion agenda. It also allows you to protect Meren, if you have to, from the most cost effective removal that can touch her.
When the damage gets done, you are netting 3 life and a creature from the cemetery. The former effect is nice for reasons we have already mentioned and the latter, while slow, does feed into recursion slots we need.
My only issue with it is that the immediate gain doesn't remotely compare to F&F, where you are taking a resource and then getting to play something else.
If there's no nonbasic hate in the meta, then Volrath's Stronghold probably deserves a place, because the only price you're paying is potentially losing early-game colors. That said, when I ran it I was never impressed - the number of times I was willing to (a) tap 3 to activate it, (b) give up my draw step for it, and (c) pay the mana to re-cast a creature off it were few and far between. By the time that was viable, the game was already won or lost and it didn't make a difference, so playing out under Blood Moon is more important. In most games it was little more than a Wastes and I'd rather have better access to colors.
Sword of Light and Shadow seems synergistic but once you start using it, you realize it actually doesn't mesh well in practice. Every bit of mana needs to be spent as efficiently as possible, and we need to be making pretty big plays on each turn (advancing board state or hurting our opponents).... SoLS is both expensive (5 mana just to get going) and slow (needs to be equipped, doesn't pull creatures straight to the battlefield). If it or the creature it's equipped to get removed, then you've potentially dropped the entire game since you're inevitably playing vs. at least one combo deck. Umezawa's Jitte is a different story as it is repeatable instant-speed removal - and once it has counters, it can still remove creatures without needing to be equipped to activate it.
Most of the recursion engines in other Meren lists I've seen (Sheoldred, SOLS, etc) are focused very much on continuous and repeatable recursion - this is good in theory, but everything has its price, and the speed and mana tradeoffs for "permanent" recursion aren't worth it (in my mind).
For example - I see Eternal Witness as being far better than SOLS at doing what we need. It may not be continuous and repeatable, but it doesn't need to be - it just needs to give us enough time to win the game. You can't last forever by stringing together efficient one-shot effects, but that's not the point - instead, you just win more quickly and reliably.
Put another way - for 10 cmc of creatures, you could have a Sheoldred & unequipped Sword of Light and Shadow which, at end-of-turn, haven't netted you anything... or you could have a Hulk and Eternal Witness, fetching two guaranteed toolbox creatures straight to the battlefield, plus another creature (EWit), and the chance to return anything else (maybe even Hulk?) to your hand. One of these has potential to create an oppressive board state (but is completely answered by a single removal spell), while the other is answer-me-now-or-die (equal or more attack power, more toolboxing, higher threat count to be answered with removal, etc).
EDIT: Rereading a bit more I think the idea in other lists is to include both of the above examples. I'm not saying you shouldn't do it - just that I tend to shy away from value-over-time engines in competitive play, since they tend to have higher up-front costs and usually do not stick around long enough for you to get full value from them. Instead, high-impact one-time effects mean you are guaranteed to get your return-on-investment... and it's definitely within reason to tune the deck such that you just win before the point where you'd need the repeatable effects (though doing this on a budget may be extremely difficult)
EDIT 2: I've been thinking more about Creakwood Leige recently, and will be paying especially close attention to it in coming games. Specifically, looking at three possible routes:
Replace Creakwood Liege with Mycoloth, as that provides (a) superior sacrifice fodder, (b) a one-time multi-creature sacrifice outlet, and (c) potentially a more powerful wincon. I'm not a huge fan of this option, just considering it; or
Keep Creakwood Liege, since I've been pretty happy with it thus far (though, it does not necessarily mesh the best)
If there's no nonbasic hate in the meta, then Volrath's Stronghold probably deserves a place, because the only price you're paying is potentially losing early-game colors. That said, when I ran it I was never impressed - the number of times I was willing to (a) tap 3 to activate it, (b) give up my draw step for it, and (c) pay the mana to re-cast a creature off it were few and far between. By the time that was viable, the game was already won or lost and it didn't make a difference, so playing out under Blood Moon is more important. In most games it was little more than a Wastes and I'd rather have better access to colors.
Sword of Light and Shadow seems synergistic but once you start using it, you realize it actually doesn't mesh well in practice. Every bit of mana needs to be spent as efficiently as possible, and we need to be making pretty big plays on each turn (advancing board state or hurting our opponents).... SoLS is both expensive (5 mana just to get going) and slow (needs to be equipped, doesn't pull creatures straight to the battlefield). If it or the creature it's equipped to get removed, then you've potentially dropped the entire game since you're inevitably playing vs. at least one combo deck. Umezawa's Jitte is a different story as it is repeatable instant-speed removal - and once it has counters, it can still remove creatures without needing to be equipped to activate it.
Most of the recursion engines in other Meren lists I've seen (Sheoldred, SOLS, etc) are focused very much on continuous and repeatable recursion - this is good in theory, but everything has its price, and the speed and mana tradeoffs for "permanent" recursion aren't worth it (in my mind).
For example - I see Eternal Witness as being far better than SOLS at doing what we need. It may not be continuous and repeatable, but it doesn't need to be - it just needs to give us enough time to win the game. You can't last forever by stringing together efficient one-shot effects, but that's not the point - instead, you just win more quickly and reliably.
Put another way - for 10 cmc of creatures, you could have a Sheoldred & unequipped Sword of Light and Shadow which, at end-of-turn, haven't netted you anything... or you could have a Hulk and Eternal Witness, fetching two guaranteed toolbox creatures straight to the battlefield, plus another creature (EWit), and the chance to return anything else (maybe even Hulk?) to your hand. One of these has potential to create an oppressive board state (but is completely answered by a single removal spell), while the other is answer-me-now-or-die (equal or more attack power, more toolboxing, higher threat count to be answered with removal, etc).
EDIT: Rereading a bit more I think the idea in other lists is to include both of the above examples. I'm not saying you shouldn't do it - just that I tend to shy away from value-over-time engines in competitive play, since they tend to have higher up-front costs and usually do not stick around long enough for you to get full value from them. Instead, high-impact one-time effects mean you are guaranteed to get your return-on-investment... and it's definitely within reason to tune the deck such that you just win before the point where you'd need the repeatable effects (though doing this on a budget may be extremely difficult)
EDIT 2: I've been thinking more about Creakwood Leige recently, and will be paying especially close attention to it in coming games. Specifically, looking at three possible routes:
Replace Creakwood Liege with Mycoloth, as that provides (a) superior sacrifice fodder, (b) a one-time multi-creature sacrifice outlet, and (c) potentially a more powerful wincon. I'm not a huge fan of this option, just considering it; or
Keep Creakwood Liege, since I've been pretty happy with it thus far (though, it does not necessarily mesh the best)
After more playtesting, I'll agree that Sheoldred is simply too slow to be of much value. However, with that being said, I still don't think we are netting the value that other players are getting from Protean Hulk. I feel that it's only a real win condition in this deck when you are playing against players who have never seen the deck before. You might be able to keep your 6/6 floating around if they believe the combo elements are in here. The alternative is they blow him up and lose the game immediately, after all.
However, most of the creatures in this deck are simply toolbox elements. By the time I play Protean Hulk, I'm hoping to close out the game. I'm wanting to hit with a 6/6 beater because I've got multiple opponents that I need to be bringing into the end of the game, otherwise I run the risk of them gaining enough time to escape the soft locks. My goal isn't to lose that 6/6 beater and end up with something like Liliana's Specter or Caustic Caterpillar to show for it. The biggest threat that I default to when Hulk goes is Grim Flayer, and he is the only thing that I think really fills that role. The other stuff is either toolbox or furthers the sacrifice bottomline, but not enough that I truly don't care whether I lose my Hulk or not. I want to be grabbing game-ending stuff, not Sakura-Tribe Elder, Caustic Caterpillar, Dawntreader Elk, Bloom Tender, etc.
This maybe another unpopular opinion, but if this deck is going to keep Hulk, I feel that it needs one more cheap beatstick to grab because the reality is Hulk is likely not sticking around on the board. The option needs to be cost effective, efficient, and powerful. EDH is an unusual format because a lot of that gets pushed upwards in CMC. Stuff like Craterhoof Behemoth and Avenger of Zendikar are viable because they essentially end the game immediately, which can be pretty important when everyone has 40 life. However, this isn't that deck. The taxes and general control elements slow down the game enough that we need to play cheap to stay ahead.
It might be that the undisputed king of green of other formats, Tarmogoyf, is worth a look. I know he doesn't see much play in EDH because his power is nerfed by having only one copy and the format as a whole is slower, but again, this deck is already approaching a philosophy of efficiency and cost effectiveness that you see as commonplace in the Eternal formats. Those are the sorts of places he shines because of how ridiculously cheap he is. Other green players have the benefit of not playing Stax to get more effective beaters like Craterhoof Behemoth. Given that we need cheap, we don't have that luxury. This might be one of the few EDH decks were he is the better option. If someone has another more viable alternative, I'd love to hear it too.
As for Creakwood, I feel like he is slow, but he also is the only thing that fills the anthem slot. If your win condition revolves around slowing down your opponents and beating multiple players with 40ish life to 0, it helps to have something to buffs up the weenies. It certainly doesn't hurt that he generates tokens to either act as additional beaters, or act as fodder for the enchantments. I don't think you can really get afford to get rid of him without replacing him for something that does his job better.
Surprisingly I don't see Hulk itself as a finisher in this list. By that, I mean that the game is not supposed to end immediately when he hits play.... he is just a tool to seal the late-game "gaps" in our boardstate and make sure we stay in control while our smaller beaters win the game. Hulk rarely sits on the battlefield as a beater for me - usually I just want to sac him immediately to fetch Manglehorn, Creakwood Liege, Liliana's Specter, etc to ensure a harder lock on the table (or maybe find Eternal Witness to grab back a key lockdown piece).
I've found attack power to be relatively easy to come by, so often the problem is just making sure that we can keep players under control long enough to end the game. Creakwood Liege + Grim Flayer is my go-to beatstick combo if that's what's needed - with Meren on the field and one Worm token, that's 16 attack power alone. Add in reanimation triggers, Foster effects, etc and there isn't so much need for a much faster clock, especially at the cost of making the early-game less consistent... especially if you are committed to eliminating your most threatening opponent first.
Definitely agreed that we don't get as much mileage out of him as some other decks do, given the absence of insta-win combo pieces. But, I think this is a key part of ensuring the deck remains consistent and reliable game-in and game-out. All of our cards are strong on their own, at all phases of the game - and creatures offer attack/defense power plus some other bonus (stax, acceleration, etc). Sounds like we agree on Craterhoof Behemoth - he's probably the best combat damage finisher in all of green, but on his own in an early hand he's a pretty dead-draw and when our gameplan is all about restricting resources and getting the most bang-for-our-buck from every card-in-hand, he can sink the early-game ship pretty easily.
I think if I were in the market for some more attack power I might look to Scavenging Ooze, since it can quickly grow to Tarmogoyf levels of attack power while also adding some other utility to our toolbox. Though again, I'm not sure yet whether (in my meta) I necessarily need more attack power. Granted I've been on a bit of a dry spell the past week-ish but will be playing more starting this weekend and will report back with some thoughts and updates!
EDIT: It's worth noting that our meta is full of Ancient Tombs, fetchlands, Phyrexian Arena effects, Sylvan Library, and a modest array of early creatures to keep people honest. So, usually the life totals are closer to 25-30 rather than 40 by the time I'm trying to close out the game.
I wasn't recommending Behemoth anyway. I only brought up that card to highlight a role other Green decks fill that we cannot because of expense. Behemoth is too cost prohibitive and, quite frankly, we don't keep enough creatures in play at one time to kill 2 or more opponents with combat damage in one turn anyway.
Scavenging Ooze is a great option, but A) my meta is pretty creature scarce, B) loses its counters the moment it ends up in another zone, and C) requires you to burn mana that can already be pretty scarce just to use it. Tarmogoyf is ceetainly less versatile because it only does one thing, beatdown, but it walks right through those 3 issues.
For me, the second issue is especially egregious. It could be a meta issue, but this build is very sacrifice heavy. I am finding that I am only keeping 2 or 3 creatures, tops, in play at a time. Sometimes, Grim Flayer needs to bite the dust for a turn and come back a little later when there is more to work with.
Thus, everything, in my opinion, short of Meren needs to be able to "stand on its own" if you will because there is a decent possibility that it won't stick around long. Unless every person at the table is playing around with their cemetery, the Goyf is going to be X/X+1 regardless of how many times your opponents get rid of him or you eat him yourself.
If you are often finding your opponents are sitting around with 25 to 30 life, I feel that makes Goyf a stronger option anyway. Someone sitting at that table is going to have to respond or they are now on a clock. Even if they do respond, it's less getting directed at Meren and he only costs 1G. Bring him back when the game requires a more traditional green answer.
TL;DR version: From where I am standing, it seems to me that this deck has three goals: starve opponents of any meaningful ability to create a board presence, deprive opponents of reactionary resources, and exploit their diminished ability to play the game with an aggressive assault. You have the first two pretty well locked down, but only Grim Flayer and Creakwood seem to be directed at the latter goal.
All that I am saying here is that having a 2CC 5/6, or what can often be a 6/7 beast, when your opponents are being forced to top deck, play around with limited mana, and coordinate with limited resources is a risky endeavour for those on the receiving end. It's absurdly low cost means you can drop it when you most stand to put pressure on the board without sacrificing other plays and even if it's eliminated, it can be returned once control has been secured again at the same P/T.
I wasn't recommending Behemoth anyway. I only brought up that card to highlight a role other Green decks fill that we cannot because of expense. Behemoth is too cost prohibitive and, quite frankly, we don't keep enough creatures in play at one time to kill 2 or more opponents with combat damage in one turn anyway.
Fully agreed then! Sorry if I misunderstood you the first time.
Re: Ooze - was just tossing it out there as another alternative to think about for those who might be following along and are in need a beater with some added utility attached. As far as my current list goes, I don't feel too much pressure to include a beater like Goyf, since most of my problems come in the "locking-the-board-down" phase. But I will keep him in mind - I think perhaps more than any other archetype, Stax is highly variable based on playgroup and meta, and so the package of options / creatures will be different for everyone. I actually plan to include quite an extensive "Variants Packages" section in the first post and this will be included!
Hi guys. What do you think about Razaketh, The Foulblooded in the new set? I think he's a very good toolbox creature. A sac outlet and an instant Demonic Tutor.
Diligent Farmhand - This takes the spot over Bloom Tender for a few reasons: (a) it can be played T1; (b) it can be activated immediately (Bloom Tender is clunky when reanimated); (c) it has a built-in sacrifice effect. Not much else to say! Bloom Tender is strong, but she is anti-synergistic with the deck; she doesn't want to die, AND doesn't want to be reanimated (because she doesn't have haste).
Ophiomancer - Takes the spot over Glissa, the Traitor. While the artifact recursion is nice, it is more of a niche need - and often games are won or lost before that becomes relevant. With so many sacrifice-based effects in this list, a cheap token-generator (which also happens to be a creature itself) is hard to ignore... so after many months, Ophiomancer returns!
Viridian Emissary - Wins the spot over Wood Elves for being 1 cheaper on the curve. That's about all!
Yahenni's Expertise - I believe this card is truly undervalued and one which is very powerful in the right list. This replaces Attrition, which simply requires too much setup to be effective (and even then, the nonblack restriction is a pain). At 4 cmc, the cost matches Attrition if you include the first removal activation; and the ability to cast another spell for free is pure gravy. Even better, it doesn't kill Meren!
Considering:
Swapping out Chains of Mephistopheles for Damping Matrix. Haven't made the switch yet, and this seems like a hugely meta-dependent call. However, I feel it's worth bringing the option to everyone's attention, depending on the types of problems you are facing!
Alrighty, some major changes happening the past few days. I've been really re-examining this list from a competitive standpoint, and have decided to restructure much of how it operates (especially through the first few turns). The major changes are:
Mana Dorks - Although they are far less syngergistic with Meren and our stax strategy, the greater speed/tempo of dorks is just unmatched by land-fetching creatures. Additionally, although land-fetchers have better long-term value if reanimated multiple times, realistically this doesn't happen - and it's simply better to explode out of the gates as quickly as possible. Thanks to those who had mentioned mana dorks in this thread - it took some further discussion and experimentation for me to realize how much stronger they are, despite the anti-synergy.
Nonbasics - I try to stay away from these when possible, but hitting guaranteed colors (esp. G on T1) is now so important that the basics count may get lower again.
Added Living Plane + Minister of Pain as a new "win condition." Although it does not immediately win the game like some combos (Mike + Trike), it basically assures victory nonetheless, and crucially the individual combo pieces are still very powerful and useful on their own. This win condition provides the list with the much stronger win condition I've been seeking for quite some time now, and I am much happier with this than the alternatives! I am surprised I haven't come across this combo before.
This update addresses the slow tempo of Lili #2 and introduces a powerful new tool vs. combo. Phyrexian Revoker stops all kinds of shenanigans, from Isochron Scepter combos and Teferi, Temporal Archmage activations to Necrotic Ooze and Aetherflux Reservoir. It is also easily cast, easily tutored, and easily recovered via Meren, giving us much greater flexibility in answering threats of this type.
Finally got around to updating the OP with a few changes:
"How to Play the Deck" section added
New Changelog Entry: +1 Damping Matrix, -1 Sensei's Divining Top - In a bit of an unexpected change, this update sees the removal of Sensei's Divining Top from the list. Why? It just doesn't fit our tempo that well, and there aren't that many times it feels like the right choice. T1 we'd much rather be playing a dork, and T2-4 are typically already full with other control options. While a good sink for extra mana, it just doesn't feel like we ever have that mana to spare - and often 1 mana makes or breaks a turn. The replacement card is a very meta-call for me, so it may not be the right choice for everyone. I play against a lot of artifact and creature-based combo, so stopping both of these combo lines is a major concern for me. Though, this could be a very dead card in some playgroups. I could easily see Drown in Sorrow, Putrefy, Pithing Needle, Scavenging Ooze, Loaming Shaman, etc. in this slot.
FireStorm, I love this list a ton. I think that its low CMC and high individual card strength is more effective in a cEDH setting. You've highlighted a few pieces of Stax that I will be adapting for my own lists (Damping Matrix is a particularly good find for both my Kaalia and Teferi Stax list). I actually removed Top from my Teferi Stax list myself as a test and I haven't missed it at all, actually. Smoothing your draws is great, but I'd rather have something that directly contributes to executing my game plan, so I'm keen to see your results in removing the Top.
Anyways, my overall compliments for a thorough and well-developed Primer that actually reflects a cEDH decklist. It seems there are a shortage of decks that actually subscribe to the cEDH philosophy that are coded as Primers, but hopefully that will change. I'm updating my Kaalia decklist so that it can hopefully be approved as a Multi-Player Primer.
Hi folks, have you been playing this deck as for lately? Any updates with new cards such as Ravenous Chupacabra?
I like No Mercy as a way to prevent people attacking me, stalling them for a while and/or making them sacrifice more creatures.
Hey guys, just wondering what people think about Thallid Soothsayer as a sac outlet and card advantage. Probably going to get some testing in with it soon.
Hi folks, have you been playing this deck as for lately? Any updates with new cards such as Ravenous Chupacabra?
I like No Mercy as a way to prevent people attacking me, stalling them for a while and/or making them sacrifice more creatures.
Quick update: Unfortunately life has been really busy recently and my main playgroup hasn't had a chance to get together in almost two months now, so I don't have too many changes to report. Here are the current changes I will be making (hopefully sometime soon I will get the chance update the OP to reflect this):
Reasoning: Scavenging Ooze - Gitrog Combo and Jarad are both in my meta; that is basically all the explanation you will need. GY hate is premium value for me, and this is one of the best solutions (cheap, instant-speed, interacts with Meren). On the other end, Blood Funnel was a neat plaything, but it never really felt "right". Before the Meren engine is up and running (i.e. early game, when you have few lands and the Blood Funnel discount is most helpful) you don't have the luxury of sacrificing creatures; afterwards, card advantage tends to be the bigger issue, and not mana production.
Damping Sphere is just far too powerful of a silver bullet to ignore. It single-handedly shuts down a huge fraction of wincons in combo decks in the competitive meta, from multiple archetypes - storm, Doomsday, High Tide, etc. Actually, it is simply a powerhouse against any blue deck in general. They usually like to toss out tons of cheap cantrip-like spells (Brainstorm, Ponder, etc) and their mid- and late-game often relies heavily on chaining these cheap spells together. However, not sure exactly what will come out of the list to include this.
3x Forests --> 3x Swamps really just comes down to color demands in the mid-game; we have many more cards requiring BB / BBB than GG.
Hi folks, have you been playing this deck as for lately? Any updates with new cards such as Ravenous Chupacabra?
I like No Mercy as a way to prevent people attacking me, stalling them for a while and/or making them sacrifice more creatures.
If Chupacabra was at 3cmc I think it might worth considering (especially if you have creature-oriented combos like Gitrog in your meta), but I think 4cmc is just too high a price to pay. Creatures have the POTENTIAL to be re-used with Meren, but often people overvalue this interaction and it's just better to have a few one-off, cheap/efficient spells... so you can get the job done (killing something) while also using recursion on other, more useful creatures. If you need more removal look at options like Bone Splinters, Cast Down, Devour in Shadow, Fatal Push, Go for the Throat, Hero's Demise, Victim of Night, Walk the Plank, etc. (choose depending on your needs and meta). Bone Shredder was in my list for a short time, and even at 3cmc it felt a bit clunky and slow.
No Mercy is alright if you are in a heavily creature-combat based meta. On the other hand, it is not very versatile and proactive - it won't stop oppponent combos, won't stop a lethal alpha strike, etc. It is probably better to go with more/better removal and/or boardwipes (i.e. Drown in Sorrow) instead, as they are more flexible, kill toolbox creatures (that will never be used to attack you anyway), and don't give your opponents a choice in the matter. However, BY FAR the biggest issue with No Mercy is that it doesn't ACTUALLY stop combat damage against you, it just creates a drawback for attacking; it only protects you if the damage doesn't kill you in the first place. Unfortunately, life points are a very valuable resource to this deck and their availability is already extremely constrained by many different things. Just look at how many cards reduce our life total: Necropotence, Dark Confidant, Mana Crypt, Toxic Deluge, Sylvan Library, Birthing Pod, Elves of Deep Shadow, Phyrexian Arena, Dismember, Vampiric Tutor, Imperial Seal, City of Brass/Mana Confluence, Overgrown Tomb, Llanowar Wastes, Ancient Tomb, SEVEN fetchlands... these are mostly all 1-2 points individually, but together they really add up quickly. I would say there is not enough life buffer available for No Mercy to be effective, it's better to solve the problem in other ways. But, with some deck tweaks and in the right meta it may be workable for you.
Hey guys, just wondering what people think about Thallid Soothsayer as a sac outlet and card advantage. Probably going to get some testing in with it soon.
Not a huge fan of this card tbh, it just costs way too much (in BOTH CMC and ability cost) to be worth it. You can't drop it early, it costs 6 mana before you even break even on cards, it isn't good against surprise boardwipe (likely won't have mana up to draw 1 card, much less 2+), etc. It is worse than Grim Haruspex in just about every way.
No clue how Phyrexian Arena has slipped under the radar for so long and missed so many previous edits/cuts, but now that I "remembered" it, it is the obvious card to cut. Why? It's just too slow and clunky. It takes two full turn cycles just to net you 1 card (an aeon in CEDH), and too many afterwards to really begin paying off. It doesn't hurt your opponents at all, doesn't feed Meren, and doesn't have any strong ETB ability to get guaranteed value out of. Unfortunately, the "direction" of a competitive game is often largely decided in the first 3-4 turns, so we need to focus on immediate value and advantage engines as opposed to something this slow. Additionally, at 3 cmc it is costlier than we'd like... but more importantly the T2/T3 3-drop is a crucial tempo slot for this deck. It is when we either want to start clearing out the board with removal, drop our first oppressive stax piece (Damping Sphere or Null Rod), or play out ability-laden utility creatures to gain board advantage and prepare the Meren engine.
Phyrexian Arena is a decent card but takes a long time to set up and a long time in order to really start getting a return in card advantage. Dark Confidant is much better as a source of card advantage since it has a lot more synergy with Keren and draws you cards a turn earlier.
This list would be such a challenge to play against. The sheer amount of Stax and removal is hard to play around. I think the only card that I would suggest is Runic Armasaur. Since activated abilities are pretty much the name of the game in cEDH, I think that the Armasaur would be a massive source of card advantage for you. It's got a nice fat butt too so that you can block the Tymna decks without fear of trading one of your creatures (not that you're terribly worried about that with Meren...).
I have had my eye on Runic Armasaur! However, there is one similar card I am adding first - see below. As far as Runic Armasaur is concerned, I think the main drawback is that it doesn't actually stop creature combos. You get to draw cards, but if an opponent is ready to combo off, it doesn't really help you there (in my case, non-mana-generating creature abilities are almost exclusively used to combo off and win on-the-spot). However, depending on the meta I think this dino could be a good add (I should probably add a section on "Meta Tuning" to the OP, this card will be there if I do).
Chalice is extremely powerful in general, especially vs. spellslinger decks. Unfortunately, it is "often a good answer" but almost never "the best". It is never the stax piece you'll tutor for first, and although it creates a big roadblock for some decks, it doesn't necessarily shut them out as well as I would like. I've found it is hard to stick more than 1-2 stax pieces at a time, so those you do must be as back-breaking as possible - and although Chalice can definitely be a pain for our opponents, it isn't quite enough of a pain. It may make a re-entrance at some point, but for now it's out.
Taking its place is Cursed Totem, the anti-creature analogue to Null Rod. It should not need much introduction, as it stops many of the format's most powerful creature-based combos:
The Liege is definitely a swing slot right now. It doesn't do anything perfectly, but currently it does multiple things quite well (while being a creature itself). Every time I come to make cuts I keep thinking it should go... but on the battlefield it just gets work done. In theory Ophiomancer has the potential to generate more snakes, but I've found that in practice this rarely ever matters, and the pump / guaranteed token every turn is simply better.
I have to respectfully disagree with you here - unless you are reliably and deterministically destroying every opponent's permanents (something we don't do here), winning by "lockdown" is... just not really a thing. There are too many low-CMC answers in this format, and it is only a matter of time before your opponents will worm their way out of the stax/lock and turn the tables on you. Short of a god-hand, there is no such thing as a hard-lock... only soft-locks that put you on the clock. Winning quickly is very important and if you're not able to do so, eventually they will break your lock and simply combo off.
Re: Uba Mask, Orb of Dreams, Choke, Tsunami, Perish, Virtue's Ruin: I don't tend to favor these since they are relatively expensive, narrow, and tend to only disturb one or two opponents (as opposed to ALL of them). Stopping the blue player from comboing off sounds good, but doesn't really matter if another opponent just Ad Nauseam combos you the next turn anyway.
EDIT: You've got me thinking and I think Chains of Mephistopheles would be an excellent tool against many of the quick-win combos in the format. Unfortunately it's another high-dollar and scarce rare, with no great budget replacement anywhere to be found around that CMC... but many combos just don't have a way to deal with it short of removing it. Unfortunately it does not solve Ad Naus however...
Currently on my mind for next edits:
+1 Chains of Mephistopheles
+1 Chalice of the Void - At X=1, this shuts down many general answers, removal spells, draw / cantrips, and tutors of our opponents. We run relatively few spells at 1 CMC (2-3 is the sweet spot), so it does not affect us nearly as much as many other competitive lists. Alternatively, it can simply shut down opponents' combos (if you know they are coming), and recursion sneaks around this too.
+1 Imperial Seal
-1 Lightning Greaves
-1 ??? (Green Sun's Zenith?)
-1 ??? (Mirri's Guile? Wood Elves?)
UR [PRIMER] Flash of the Firemind (Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind) RU
BG Death and Staxes: FireStorm4056's Competitive Meren Stax List GB
W Avacyn Angel of Hope W
R Akroma, Angel of (Your Opponent's) Fury R
R 99-Mountain Ashling R
I'll concede that I hadn't really considered Protean Hulk's ability to net three sacrifice effects. That's a pretty good point. However, the ability to stay ahead of the Stax was only one of two big points I was trying to drive home too, I simply focused on the Stax element in that second post because I felt like I did a poor job of explaining it. True recursion was the thing I most wanted to draw attention to.
Even then, when looking at the decklist, I still don't feel like we are really the deck best suited to profit from that. Of all the Meren build's, this one is the most light on creatures. There are 23 valid targets for Protean Hulk to actively look for. Furthermore, this deck doesn't win through infinite combos, it wins through raw combat damage. Between those 23 targets, very few of them are real threats. The rest are either designed so that you got card advantage through entering the battlefield, or it creates board advantage by being sacrificed. Both of those ability types only become ridiculous through being able to use them again and again. Braggo Stax does it through blink. Meren does it through recursion.
Again, it sees the play that it does in those other builds because it essentially ends the game right then and there when it goes off in the combo version. Here, more than likely, it's going to grab ETB fodder and there comes a point in time where that ETB fodder becomes threatening only because you are able to keep using it through true recursion.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not entirely sold on the idea of a fat creature in the deck at all. Rather, I feel that Meren is so fragile that it's important to diversify our means of grabbing things from the cemetery. I don't think we'd be having this discussion at all if Recurring Nightmare was still legal. Alas, it's not, so we have to come up with something else to fill the gap. I get that Protean Hulk grabs stuff from the deck, but so does a not insignificant amount of the rest of the deck. Ironically, the ability that seems the least present here is the ability to actually reach into the cemetery and reuse resources. To the extent that I support any idea of fatty within the build is because the overall design seems very light on threats.
Of those three, Lightning Greaves should probably stay. I'm not going to beat a dead-horse on talking more about the fragility of Meren. You've already done so at length in the primer and in several replies. She's the only thing that allows continuous use of the cemetery. Someone, at some point, is going to use something that invokes the Commander tax.
As an aside, I saw that you removed Volrath's Stronghold at one point, Firemind. Any insight into why it was removed? I don't have as much time to playtest as I'd like.
I'm still torn on whether to remove Greaves - my playgroup has been fluctuating recently and the removal has shifted more towards artifact / enchantment removal and less to creatures (and, lots of 1-cmc answers). I think it comes down to this:
Still not quite sure where the sweet spot lies... there are still a few other swing spots in the list though (Blood Funnel) so perhaps that will come out and both chalice and greaves will go in!
Volrath's Stronghold is out for a few reasons:
UR [PRIMER] Flash of the Firemind (Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind) RU
BG Death and Staxes: FireStorm4056's Competitive Meren Stax List GB
W Avacyn Angel of Hope W
R Akroma, Angel of (Your Opponent's) Fury R
R 99-Mountain Ashling R
On the other hand, it's a ridiculously versatile option. Best case scenario, you are using it to reuse toolbox options. Worst case scenario, you are giving up a draw (assuming no engine in place) to create a permanent Command Beacon that prevents you from ever paying for a Commander tax on Meren, which definitely helps ease up the burden on her fragility and helps to free us of our also limited mana resources.
I don't know that all of that necessarily warrants a spot for the Stronghold, but just want to highlight its versatility. It also helps close the recursion gap, albeit as a much slower option.
Another possible slower option is Sword of Light and Shadow. I like Feast and Famine more because it untaps lands, but there is something to be said for L&S. Protection from white is a pretty big deal, it's the only removal that gets around our recursion agenda. It also allows you to protect Meren, if you have to, from the most cost effective removal that can touch her.
When the damage gets done, you are netting 3 life and a creature from the cemetery. The former effect is nice for reasons we have already mentioned and the latter, while slow, does feed into recursion slots we need.
My only issue with it is that the immediate gain doesn't remotely compare to F&F, where you are taking a resource and then getting to play something else.
Sword of Light and Shadow seems synergistic but once you start using it, you realize it actually doesn't mesh well in practice. Every bit of mana needs to be spent as efficiently as possible, and we need to be making pretty big plays on each turn (advancing board state or hurting our opponents).... SoLS is both expensive (5 mana just to get going) and slow (needs to be equipped, doesn't pull creatures straight to the battlefield). If it or the creature it's equipped to get removed, then you've potentially dropped the entire game since you're inevitably playing vs. at least one combo deck. Umezawa's Jitte is a different story as it is repeatable instant-speed removal - and once it has counters, it can still remove creatures without needing to be equipped to activate it.
Most of the recursion engines in other Meren lists I've seen (Sheoldred, SOLS, etc) are focused very much on continuous and repeatable recursion - this is good in theory, but everything has its price, and the speed and mana tradeoffs for "permanent" recursion aren't worth it (in my mind).
For example - I see Eternal Witness as being far better than SOLS at doing what we need. It may not be continuous and repeatable, but it doesn't need to be - it just needs to give us enough time to win the game. You can't last forever by stringing together efficient one-shot effects, but that's not the point - instead, you just win more quickly and reliably.
Put another way - for 10 cmc of creatures, you could have a Sheoldred & unequipped Sword of Light and Shadow which, at end-of-turn, haven't netted you anything... or you could have a Hulk and Eternal Witness, fetching two guaranteed toolbox creatures straight to the battlefield, plus another creature (EWit), and the chance to return anything else (maybe even Hulk?) to your hand. One of these has potential to create an oppressive board state (but is completely answered by a single removal spell), while the other is answer-me-now-or-die (equal or more attack power, more toolboxing, higher threat count to be answered with removal, etc).
EDIT: Rereading a bit more I think the idea in other lists is to include both of the above examples. I'm not saying you shouldn't do it - just that I tend to shy away from value-over-time engines in competitive play, since they tend to have higher up-front costs and usually do not stick around long enough for you to get full value from them. Instead, high-impact one-time effects mean you are guaranteed to get your return-on-investment... and it's definitely within reason to tune the deck such that you just win before the point where you'd need the repeatable effects (though doing this on a budget may be extremely difficult)
EDIT 2: I've been thinking more about Creakwood Leige recently, and will be paying especially close attention to it in coming games. Specifically, looking at three possible routes:
UR [PRIMER] Flash of the Firemind (Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind) RU
BG Death and Staxes: FireStorm4056's Competitive Meren Stax List GB
W Avacyn Angel of Hope W
R Akroma, Angel of (Your Opponent's) Fury R
R 99-Mountain Ashling R
After more playtesting, I'll agree that Sheoldred is simply too slow to be of much value. However, with that being said, I still don't think we are netting the value that other players are getting from Protean Hulk. I feel that it's only a real win condition in this deck when you are playing against players who have never seen the deck before. You might be able to keep your 6/6 floating around if they believe the combo elements are in here. The alternative is they blow him up and lose the game immediately, after all.
However, most of the creatures in this deck are simply toolbox elements. By the time I play Protean Hulk, I'm hoping to close out the game. I'm wanting to hit with a 6/6 beater because I've got multiple opponents that I need to be bringing into the end of the game, otherwise I run the risk of them gaining enough time to escape the soft locks. My goal isn't to lose that 6/6 beater and end up with something like Liliana's Specter or Caustic Caterpillar to show for it. The biggest threat that I default to when Hulk goes is Grim Flayer, and he is the only thing that I think really fills that role. The other stuff is either toolbox or furthers the sacrifice bottomline, but not enough that I truly don't care whether I lose my Hulk or not. I want to be grabbing game-ending stuff, not Sakura-Tribe Elder, Caustic Caterpillar, Dawntreader Elk, Bloom Tender, etc.
This maybe another unpopular opinion, but if this deck is going to keep Hulk, I feel that it needs one more cheap beatstick to grab because the reality is Hulk is likely not sticking around on the board. The option needs to be cost effective, efficient, and powerful. EDH is an unusual format because a lot of that gets pushed upwards in CMC. Stuff like Craterhoof Behemoth and Avenger of Zendikar are viable because they essentially end the game immediately, which can be pretty important when everyone has 40 life. However, this isn't that deck. The taxes and general control elements slow down the game enough that we need to play cheap to stay ahead.
It might be that the undisputed king of green of other formats, Tarmogoyf, is worth a look. I know he doesn't see much play in EDH because his power is nerfed by having only one copy and the format as a whole is slower, but again, this deck is already approaching a philosophy of efficiency and cost effectiveness that you see as commonplace in the Eternal formats. Those are the sorts of places he shines because of how ridiculously cheap he is. Other green players have the benefit of not playing Stax to get more effective beaters like Craterhoof Behemoth. Given that we need cheap, we don't have that luxury. This might be one of the few EDH decks were he is the better option. If someone has another more viable alternative, I'd love to hear it too.
As for Creakwood, I feel like he is slow, but he also is the only thing that fills the anthem slot. If your win condition revolves around slowing down your opponents and beating multiple players with 40ish life to 0, it helps to have something to buffs up the weenies. It certainly doesn't hurt that he generates tokens to either act as additional beaters, or act as fodder for the enchantments. I don't think you can really get afford to get rid of him without replacing him for something that does his job better.
I've found attack power to be relatively easy to come by, so often the problem is just making sure that we can keep players under control long enough to end the game. Creakwood Liege + Grim Flayer is my go-to beatstick combo if that's what's needed - with Meren on the field and one Worm token, that's 16 attack power alone. Add in reanimation triggers, Foster effects, etc and there isn't so much need for a much faster clock, especially at the cost of making the early-game less consistent... especially if you are committed to eliminating your most threatening opponent first.
Definitely agreed that we don't get as much mileage out of him as some other decks do, given the absence of insta-win combo pieces. But, I think this is a key part of ensuring the deck remains consistent and reliable game-in and game-out. All of our cards are strong on their own, at all phases of the game - and creatures offer attack/defense power plus some other bonus (stax, acceleration, etc). Sounds like we agree on Craterhoof Behemoth - he's probably the best combat damage finisher in all of green, but on his own in an early hand he's a pretty dead-draw and when our gameplan is all about restricting resources and getting the most bang-for-our-buck from every card-in-hand, he can sink the early-game ship pretty easily.
I think if I were in the market for some more attack power I might look to Scavenging Ooze, since it can quickly grow to Tarmogoyf levels of attack power while also adding some other utility to our toolbox. Though again, I'm not sure yet whether (in my meta) I necessarily need more attack power. Granted I've been on a bit of a dry spell the past week-ish but will be playing more starting this weekend and will report back with some thoughts and updates!
EDIT: It's worth noting that our meta is full of Ancient Tombs, fetchlands, Phyrexian Arena effects, Sylvan Library, and a modest array of early creatures to keep people honest. So, usually the life totals are closer to 25-30 rather than 40 by the time I'm trying to close out the game.
UR [PRIMER] Flash of the Firemind (Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind) RU
BG Death and Staxes: FireStorm4056's Competitive Meren Stax List GB
W Avacyn Angel of Hope W
R Akroma, Angel of (Your Opponent's) Fury R
R 99-Mountain Ashling R
Scavenging Ooze is a great option, but A) my meta is pretty creature scarce, B) loses its counters the moment it ends up in another zone, and C) requires you to burn mana that can already be pretty scarce just to use it. Tarmogoyf is ceetainly less versatile because it only does one thing, beatdown, but it walks right through those 3 issues.
For me, the second issue is especially egregious. It could be a meta issue, but this build is very sacrifice heavy. I am finding that I am only keeping 2 or 3 creatures, tops, in play at a time. Sometimes, Grim Flayer needs to bite the dust for a turn and come back a little later when there is more to work with.
Thus, everything, in my opinion, short of Meren needs to be able to "stand on its own" if you will because there is a decent possibility that it won't stick around long. Unless every person at the table is playing around with their cemetery, the Goyf is going to be X/X+1 regardless of how many times your opponents get rid of him or you eat him yourself.
If you are often finding your opponents are sitting around with 25 to 30 life, I feel that makes Goyf a stronger option anyway. Someone sitting at that table is going to have to respond or they are now on a clock. Even if they do respond, it's less getting directed at Meren and he only costs 1G. Bring him back when the game requires a more traditional green answer.
TL;DR version: From where I am standing, it seems to me that this deck has three goals: starve opponents of any meaningful ability to create a board presence, deprive opponents of reactionary resources, and exploit their diminished ability to play the game with an aggressive assault. You have the first two pretty well locked down, but only Grim Flayer and Creakwood seem to be directed at the latter goal.
All that I am saying here is that having a 2CC 5/6, or what can often be a 6/7 beast, when your opponents are being forced to top deck, play around with limited mana, and coordinate with limited resources is a risky endeavour for those on the receiving end. It's absurdly low cost means you can drop it when you most stand to put pressure on the board without sacrificing other plays and even if it's eliminated, it can be returned once control has been secured again at the same P/T.
Fully agreed then! Sorry if I misunderstood you the first time.
Re: Ooze - was just tossing it out there as another alternative to think about for those who might be following along and are in need a beater with some added utility attached. As far as my current list goes, I don't feel too much pressure to include a beater like Goyf, since most of my problems come in the "locking-the-board-down" phase. But I will keep him in mind - I think perhaps more than any other archetype, Stax is highly variable based on playgroup and meta, and so the package of options / creatures will be different for everyone. I actually plan to include quite an extensive "Variants Packages" section in the first post and this will be included!
UR [PRIMER] Flash of the Firemind (Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind) RU
BG Death and Staxes: FireStorm4056's Competitive Meren Stax List GB
W Avacyn Angel of Hope W
R Akroma, Angel of (Your Opponent's) Fury R
R 99-Mountain Ashling R
Modern.
GBW Junk
GBR Jund
UG Infect
Added:
- Diligent Farmhand
- Ophiomancer
- Viridian Emissary
- Yahenni's Expertise
Removed:- Attrition
- Bloom Tender
- Glissa, the Traitor
- Wood Elves
Diligent Farmhand - This takes the spot over Bloom Tender for a few reasons: (a) it can be played T1; (b) it can be activated immediately (Bloom Tender is clunky when reanimated); (c) it has a built-in sacrifice effect. Not much else to say! Bloom Tender is strong, but she is anti-synergistic with the deck; she doesn't want to die, AND doesn't want to be reanimated (because she doesn't have haste).Ophiomancer - Takes the spot over Glissa, the Traitor. While the artifact recursion is nice, it is more of a niche need - and often games are won or lost before that becomes relevant. With so many sacrifice-based effects in this list, a cheap token-generator (which also happens to be a creature itself) is hard to ignore... so after many months, Ophiomancer returns!
Viridian Emissary - Wins the spot over Wood Elves for being 1 cheaper on the curve. That's about all!
Yahenni's Expertise - I believe this card is truly undervalued and one which is very powerful in the right list. This replaces Attrition, which simply requires too much setup to be effective (and even then, the nonblack restriction is a pain). At 4 cmc, the cost matches Attrition if you include the first removal activation; and the ability to cast another spell for free is pure gravy. Even better, it doesn't kill Meren!
Considering:
Swapping out Chains of Mephistopheles for Damping Matrix. Haven't made the switch yet, and this seems like a hugely meta-dependent call. However, I feel it's worth bringing the option to everyone's attention, depending on the types of problems you are facing!
UR [PRIMER] Flash of the Firemind (Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind) RU
BG Death and Staxes: FireStorm4056's Competitive Meren Stax List GB
W Avacyn Angel of Hope W
R Akroma, Angel of (Your Opponent's) Fury R
R 99-Mountain Ashling R
Added:
- Abrupt Decay
- Beast Within
- Birds of Paradise
- Birthing Pod
- Chrome Mox
- City of Brass
- Deathrite Shaman
- Dismember
- Elves of Deep Shadow
- Elvish Mystic
- Fauna Shaman
- Fyndhorn Elves
- Llanowar Elves
- Maelstrom Pulse
- Mana Confluence
- Nature's Claim
- Shriekmaw
- Smallpox
- Syphon Mind
- Trinisphere
Removed:Results:
UR [PRIMER] Flash of the Firemind (Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind) RU
BG Death and Staxes: FireStorm4056's Competitive Meren Stax List GB
W Avacyn Angel of Hope W
R Akroma, Angel of (Your Opponent's) Fury R
R 99-Mountain Ashling R
UR [PRIMER] Flash of the Firemind (Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind) RU
BG Death and Staxes: FireStorm4056's Competitive Meren Stax List GB
W Avacyn Angel of Hope W
R Akroma, Angel of (Your Opponent's) Fury R
R 99-Mountain Ashling R
This update addresses the slow tempo of Lili #2 and introduces a powerful new tool vs. combo. Phyrexian Revoker stops all kinds of shenanigans, from Isochron Scepter combos and Teferi, Temporal Archmage activations to Necrotic Ooze and Aetherflux Reservoir. It is also easily cast, easily tutored, and easily recovered via Meren, giving us much greater flexibility in answering threats of this type.
UR [PRIMER] Flash of the Firemind (Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind) RU
BG Death and Staxes: FireStorm4056's Competitive Meren Stax List GB
W Avacyn Angel of Hope W
R Akroma, Angel of (Your Opponent's) Fury R
R 99-Mountain Ashling R
UR [PRIMER] Flash of the Firemind (Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind) RU
BG Death and Staxes: FireStorm4056's Competitive Meren Stax List GB
W Avacyn Angel of Hope W
R Akroma, Angel of (Your Opponent's) Fury R
R 99-Mountain Ashling R
Anyways, my overall compliments for a thorough and well-developed Primer that actually reflects a cEDH decklist. It seems there are a shortage of decks that actually subscribe to the cEDH philosophy that are coded as Primers, but hopefully that will change. I'm updating my Kaalia decklist so that it can hopefully be approved as a Multi-Player Primer.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
I like No Mercy as a way to prevent people attacking me, stalling them for a while and/or making them sacrifice more creatures.
Quick update: Unfortunately life has been really busy recently and my main playgroup hasn't had a chance to get together in almost two months now, so I don't have too many changes to report. Here are the current changes I will be making (hopefully sometime soon I will get the chance update the OP to reflect this):
+1 Damping Sphere
+1 Scavenging Ooze
+3 Swamp
-1 Blood Funnel
-3 Forest
-1 ??? (Undecided)
Reasoning:
Scavenging Ooze - Gitrog Combo and Jarad are both in my meta; that is basically all the explanation you will need. GY hate is premium value for me, and this is one of the best solutions (cheap, instant-speed, interacts with Meren). On the other end, Blood Funnel was a neat plaything, but it never really felt "right". Before the Meren engine is up and running (i.e. early game, when you have few lands and the Blood Funnel discount is most helpful) you don't have the luxury of sacrificing creatures; afterwards, card advantage tends to be the bigger issue, and not mana production.
Damping Sphere is just far too powerful of a silver bullet to ignore. It single-handedly shuts down a huge fraction of wincons in combo decks in the competitive meta, from multiple archetypes - storm, Doomsday, High Tide, etc. Actually, it is simply a powerhouse against any blue deck in general. They usually like to toss out tons of cheap cantrip-like spells (Brainstorm, Ponder, etc) and their mid- and late-game often relies heavily on chaining these cheap spells together. However, not sure exactly what will come out of the list to include this.
3x Forests --> 3x Swamps really just comes down to color demands in the mid-game; we have many more cards requiring BB / BBB than GG.
If Chupacabra was at 3cmc I think it might worth considering (especially if you have creature-oriented combos like Gitrog in your meta), but I think 4cmc is just too high a price to pay. Creatures have the POTENTIAL to be re-used with Meren, but often people overvalue this interaction and it's just better to have a few one-off, cheap/efficient spells... so you can get the job done (killing something) while also using recursion on other, more useful creatures. If you need more removal look at options like Bone Splinters, Cast Down, Devour in Shadow, Fatal Push, Go for the Throat, Hero's Demise, Victim of Night, Walk the Plank, etc. (choose depending on your needs and meta). Bone Shredder was in my list for a short time, and even at 3cmc it felt a bit clunky and slow.
No Mercy is alright if you are in a heavily creature-combat based meta. On the other hand, it is not very versatile and proactive - it won't stop oppponent combos, won't stop a lethal alpha strike, etc. It is probably better to go with more/better removal and/or boardwipes (i.e. Drown in Sorrow) instead, as they are more flexible, kill toolbox creatures (that will never be used to attack you anyway), and don't give your opponents a choice in the matter. However, BY FAR the biggest issue with No Mercy is that it doesn't ACTUALLY stop combat damage against you, it just creates a drawback for attacking; it only protects you if the damage doesn't kill you in the first place. Unfortunately, life points are a very valuable resource to this deck and their availability is already extremely constrained by many different things. Just look at how many cards reduce our life total: Necropotence, Dark Confidant, Mana Crypt, Toxic Deluge, Sylvan Library, Birthing Pod, Elves of Deep Shadow, Phyrexian Arena, Dismember, Vampiric Tutor, Imperial Seal, City of Brass/Mana Confluence, Overgrown Tomb, Llanowar Wastes, Ancient Tomb, SEVEN fetchlands... these are mostly all 1-2 points individually, but together they really add up quickly. I would say there is not enough life buffer available for No Mercy to be effective, it's better to solve the problem in other ways. But, with some deck tweaks and in the right meta it may be workable for you.
Not a huge fan of this card tbh, it just costs way too much (in BOTH CMC and ability cost) to be worth it. You can't drop it early, it costs 6 mana before you even break even on cards, it isn't good against surprise boardwipe (likely won't have mana up to draw 1 card, much less 2+), etc. It is worse than Grim Haruspex in just about every way.
UR [PRIMER] Flash of the Firemind (Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind) RU
BG Death and Staxes: FireStorm4056's Competitive Meren Stax List GB
W Avacyn Angel of Hope W
R Akroma, Angel of (Your Opponent's) Fury R
R 99-Mountain Ashling R
+1 Damping Sphere
+1 Scavenging Ooze
+3 Swamp
-1 Blood Funnel
-3 Forest
-1
??? (Undecided)Phyrexian ArenaNo clue how Phyrexian Arena has slipped under the radar for so long and missed so many previous edits/cuts, but now that I "remembered" it, it is the obvious card to cut. Why? It's just too slow and clunky. It takes two full turn cycles just to net you 1 card (an aeon in CEDH), and too many afterwards to really begin paying off. It doesn't hurt your opponents at all, doesn't feed Meren, and doesn't have any strong ETB ability to get guaranteed value out of. Unfortunately, the "direction" of a competitive game is often largely decided in the first 3-4 turns, so we need to focus on immediate value and advantage engines as opposed to something this slow. Additionally, at 3 cmc it is costlier than we'd like... but more importantly the T2/T3 3-drop is a crucial tempo slot for this deck. It is when we either want to start clearing out the board with removal, drop our first oppressive stax piece (Damping Sphere or Null Rod), or play out ability-laden utility creatures to gain board advantage and prepare the Meren engine.
UR [PRIMER] Flash of the Firemind (Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind) RU
BG Death and Staxes: FireStorm4056's Competitive Meren Stax List GB
W Avacyn Angel of Hope W
R Akroma, Angel of (Your Opponent's) Fury R
R 99-Mountain Ashling R
This list would be such a challenge to play against. The sheer amount of Stax and removal is hard to play around. I think the only card that I would suggest is Runic Armasaur. Since activated abilities are pretty much the name of the game in cEDH, I think that the Armasaur would be a massive source of card advantage for you. It's got a nice fat butt too so that you can block the Tymna decks without fear of trading one of your creatures (not that you're terribly worried about that with Meren...).
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
In other news, one additional change:
+1 Cursed Totem
-1 Chalice of the Void
Chalice is extremely powerful in general, especially vs. spellslinger decks. Unfortunately, it is "often a good answer" but almost never "the best". It is never the stax piece you'll tutor for first, and although it creates a big roadblock for some decks, it doesn't necessarily shut them out as well as I would like. I've found it is hard to stick more than 1-2 stax pieces at a time, so those you do must be as back-breaking as possible - and although Chalice can definitely be a pain for our opponents, it isn't quite enough of a pain. It may make a re-entrance at some point, but for now it's out.
Taking its place is Cursed Totem, the anti-creature analogue to Null Rod. It should not need much introduction, as it stops many of the format's most powerful creature-based combos:
UR [PRIMER] Flash of the Firemind (Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind) RU
BG Death and Staxes: FireStorm4056's Competitive Meren Stax List GB
W Avacyn Angel of Hope W
R Akroma, Angel of (Your Opponent's) Fury R
R 99-Mountain Ashling R