That's a good way to get a lot of attention at the table and create enemies real fast. And depending on how many fog effects you have in your deck you have to be real careful playing timbermare. It does look like a fun one to play though. Even if you don't pay it's echo cost on your next upkeep.
I've done this quite a few times, its might be one of my favorite sequences I get to do in all of Magic.
I'm already setup and have approx a million mana. But my opponents don't concede because each one of them has a wrath type card in hand, and what can green do about that?
First opponent plays a wrath. In response I tutor for Kamahl, Fist of Krosa and flash it into play (opponents scratch heads at first), then proceed to make all their lands 1/1 creatures. I then return most of my creatures to hand with Temur Sabertooth..and have enough mana to recast Seedborn Muse once the wrath effect resolves. Then I just play out everything again in next opponents turn...oh and everybody concedes, fair enough
Oh I don't dislike Timbermare, nor do I suspect cutting it anytime soon.
It's just that I've found it less useful than a fog effect in most cases. You have to tap proactively to prevent an attack coming your way (which they might not have done), whereas fogs can suprise someone foolish enough to actually attack you. I guess I haven't faced enough Eldrazi or Myriad lately that Spore Frog did the trick better.
Btw, a fun trick with Timbermare is letting your opponent attack someone else and THEN flashing it in to precent blocks.
Like I said, not cutting the card because it's fun and definitely has uses, but it's not the most universally useful creature in the deck.
I agree that it's probably best not to leave Timbermare as the only fog effect in the deck. I tested a few hands without Spore Frog and I didn't like missing its versatility. I think the 'mare is probably the better option for a soft-lock of the table once the board position has been established and that the Frog is better as an emergency button in earlier turns. I think, despite my thinking about cutting out redundant effects, that the two cards do fill different roles and both have a place in the deck.
Navyat87, I agree that Timbermare-locking someone is a great way to earn their aggro. For me, at least, in my meta, putting Yeva, Nature's Herald into the command zone tends to earn the anger of the table. ^.^ Squirrely has a lot more experience than me at playing unknown tables and manipulating the metagame. He had a great game report a few posts up that exemplifies how this can be accomplished through selective casting.
Re: Kamahl, Fist of Krosa -- that is one of my favorite tricks with this deck. I haven't been able to pull it off yet, but the SURPRISE KAMAHL that Yeva enables should be a classic if I ever get the chance. With my testing, however, I've found that it seems to be better in the mid-ranges of mana (~8-16) to look for Temur Sabertooth and save key permanents. At 20+ mana, Kamahl can be backbreaking for an entire table. He's also a great rattlesnake to drop at the end of someone's turn and then untap with all my mana, to keep the wraths away. Sometimes I feel it's almost better to tempt out the wrath, though, knowing I can recover well and that it will slow down someone else who might be doing crazier things than I am.
Also, flashing out a Genesis in response to a wrath on the earlier turns can create more than a few groans.
Heh, that Genesis pitch into the yard must have caused some eye-rolling. I also can't believe that I wanted to cut Karametra's Acolyte at one point. You're right and that card is a total beast. I must have gone temporarily insane to not see it.
I draw Gaea's Cradle for even more mana and pass. Stuff, stuff. Feldon's turn, he discards Pathrazer of Ulamog to Anvil, tries to reanimate it. I bounce Loaming Shaman with Sabertooth, wreck his graveyard again.
This is exactly the use case I imagine for Loaming Shaman most of the time. That card can be so backbreaking for graveyard-based strategies. Well done!
- Karametra's Acolyte is such a kick in the nads. Not sure why it seems to live quite a long time in most of my games, maybe it's because it only taps for 1-3 mana when I cast it and then out of nowhere it starts generating 6-7 mana, surprising people? Maybe it's just because my deck doesn't really do anything insane or threatening. I should test Priest of Titania by now, as it has the same quality but is even cheaper (lower ceiling though).
- Panharmonicon was in my had literally the whole game. Never needed it, never wanted it either. Time to go.
- Lifeblood Hydra is super cool. I hoped it would play out like some sort of fatty/Stroke of Genius split card, and it did. It's somewhat susceptible to getting stolen though, but when you can protect it it's very nice.
- Acidic Slime never got drawn, but would've been amazing in this game. Something to kill Planeswalkers for 'only' 5 mana is very useful. Actually, with all the artifact/enchantment removal I run, I was surprised to not draw any at all when it would have been very nice to have. I think I'm going to up the number a bit, because it's basically never dead anyway.
- Regal Behemoth wasn't necessary this game because I drew it too late, as well as Spike Weaver on top of my Spore Frog, but I could have gone even more nuts at one point if I had cast Behemoth and would've been able to easily protect the crown. Duskwatch Recruiter (flipped) + Farhaven Elf + Temur Sabertooth + doubled mana with Regal Behemoth is soooooo tasty, and the next turn Recruiter flips back and basically becomes a tutor at that point.
- I accidentally selected the deck (wanted to play something else), but I was super happy to have selected Yeva. I had a blast.
RE: Priest of Titania. I do totally recommend her. The ceiling is a lot lower, but she plays nicely with Yeva in the very least. I've had more than a few T2 Priest -> T3 Yeva -> T4 6+ mana sequences. She is also great with Joraga Treespeaker (T1 Speaker -> T2 Level Up + Priest -> T3 Yeva + 3-4 mana). Of course, she is very splashy in the early game, so I understand if you'd rather stay to a quieter card.
RE: Panharmonicon. Boo. I really wanted to make this card work, but you and darrenhabib are right. I've cut it from my deck too.
RE: Lifeblood Hydra. This card sounds like it has been working out for you, eh? I'll have to put it on my radar. My initial hesitation was that I didn't have enough sac outlet on board, but as I add more for Willow Satyr (love that card!) maybe the Hydra will start to make sense.
RE: Acidic Slime. Sadly, the slime only hits enchantments, artifacts, and lands. Terastodon or Woodfall Primus will go the distance against planeswalkers, though!
RE: Regal Behemoth. I can't wait to try this card out in place of Zendikar Resurgent and Boundless Realms. Also, how has Duskwatch Recruiter working out for you? I've had one sitting in my binder since Shadows with this deck in mind, but I've never thought I'd have enough free mana to make it matter.
I was able to play two games tonight, one a victory and one a loss.
The first game of the night was against Grenzo, Dungeon Warden shenanigans, Gahiji, Honored One group hug, and Purphoros, God of the Forge token rush. I got off to a slow start and pulled pretty much all my "situational tutor targets" with no real card draw or defense. After Purphoros had burned me down into range, a Gray Merchant of Asphodel from Grenzo finished me off. Gahiji helped the others by knocking off most of my creatures as I played them, not that they would have made any real difference with no card draw in sight. I did end up killing Purphoros the turn before I died, so at least that's something. A Cloudstone Curio was in my opening grip and was never worthwhile to be played.
The second game was much longer and grindier, just what Yeva likes! We lost one player, so I was up against Bruna, Light of Alabaster and Riku of Two Reflections. Riku and I spent the first few turns mana accelerating, with me dropping an early Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx and a Sylvan Library. We ate a T5 wrath from Bruna, to which I was able to flash out a Genesis and recover the Seedborn Muse I had Summoner's Pacted for. Another wrath followed on the next turn, with Genesis again fishing out the Muse (and Yeva's commander tax jumping).
After the second wrath, Bruna finally made an appearance. I casted a Genesis Wave for x=12 on my next turn, flipping mostly lands and instant/sorceries (bad luck -- lost Tooth and Nail, Rishkar's Expertise, Momentous Fall, and Green Sun's Zenith that way) but I did hit a Regal Behemoth and a Loaming Shaman, which shuffled the ~10 auras Bruna had dumped into the graveyard. After that, Bruna attacked me. I had to give up the monarch token but I was able to slam down a Bane of Progress to take care of all her goodies. Riku then doubled a land destruction spell and hit Nykthos and Winding Canyons, but by then I had enough mana from normal lands that it wasn't crippling. The next round, I hit Bruna with a Beast Within before she could attack, played Kamahl, Fist of Krosa on Riku's turn, and stampeded over his defenses for lethal on mine.
Bruna then tried a desperate Soulscour, but forgot that Woodfall Primus had persist. I was also able to save up enough mana to cast Yeva one last time (for 12cc!) after it resolved and put Bruna on a 3-turn clock. He wasn't able to find answers in time and politely conceded.
Thoughts from the games:
--OK, I tried to give Cloudstone Curio one last chance at it let me down. I spent the whole game wishing it was some form of card draw instead. I will probably replace it with Lifeblood Hydra. Everything the Curio does, Temur Sabertooth does almost as well, and I can tutor for/play the cat at instant speed.
--Genesis is awesome. We all already knew this, but I just want to make sure to rub it in.
--Getting off to a fast start in card advantage is huge. The Sylvan Library is worth its weight in gold. I'll have to be careful to mulligan answer-heavy, set-up light hands like the first game had.
--Seriously, what was up with all those non-permanent cards stacked up for the Genesis Wave? Instants and Sorceries are only 13% of the deck, but were 25% of cards flipped by the wave. I suppose that's not too far off predicted, but it still was all the feel-bads.
--Group Hug is seriously not good news for this deck. I want to be slowing down opposing game plans, not having someone else accelerate them. I'm not sure how to plan for a strategy that doesn't care if it wins or not.
--I'll probably have a few tweaks, but nothing too major. Winding Canyons, despite attracting land destruction, was not really relevant. Yeva died a bunch, but I had the mana to recast her every time. I might replace it with Deserted Temple.
--Duskwatch Recruiter was an all-star. He died in a wrath, but I was able to Genesis him back. Filtering through cards helps a ton, and he's most of the reason I was able to get the pieces I needed in the second game.
@Cloudstone Curio - Yeah, I'm leaning that way as well. Probably going to include Beast Within again, mostly to answer potentially problematic commanders (like you did in your Bruna game). Btw, I also still run Veilstone Amulet, I think I'll just go ahead and cut it as well. I've literally NEVER drawn it in any of my games, so it might be worthwhile still, but this also means that I don't need it to function.
@Situational cards - One of the downsides of running narrow toolbox cards, I guess. Sometimes you just draw all answers for the wrong problems and no draw/ramp/generic good stuff. I'd chalk that one up to variance until that starts happening more.
You're right, of course. I think I might just need to be more aggressive with my mulligans. I took the first offered hand, which had four lands (three forest and a Nykthos), a Loaming Shaman, a Molder Slug, and a Cloudstone Curio. I should have realized that was a go-nowhere hand and tried again. I reasoned that at least I could play that hand, even if it was slow. I didn't anticipate grouphug giving everyone 6 extra lands on like T4, which set Purphoros (who was sitting to my right) up for ~20 damage on his turn. Still, you're right that one loss in my last ~5 games with this deck isn't a reason to panic, I don't think. Especially when it came back so well the second game.
RE: Veilstone Amulet. I've been a bit dismissive of shroud as a strategy for this deck, and I am also moving away from artifacts, so you won't hear any opposition from me to cutting it. I kept thinking that Cloudstone Curio would be a great way to answer removal, but it's just too clunky to get into play and I usually don't have the density of creature plays that would make it worthwhile unless I'm already winning anyway. Both would be safe cuts.
Your report made me think about non-combat damage some more. This deck is very good at preventing damage coming your way in the combat step (or just diverting attacks), but it's still vulnerable to big non-combat damage like in your game. Grey Merchant of Asphodel, Purphoros, god of the Forge, but also stuff like Nekusar, the Mindrazer or a well set-up Blood Artist can be a problem.
In my last game (the one from the report), a Scuttling Doom Engine from Feldon and big Purphoros, God of the Forge turn from the goblin player would have threatened me more if I didn't have Miren, the Moaning Well and gained some life from Lifeblood Hydra earlier. That's only 2 cards though (oh and I guess I added Momentous Fall), and I don't run a lot of tutors, so maybe I'll just add a smidge more life gain to my deck instead of the Veilstone Amulet I'm cutting.
Not sure if I want incremental life gain (Wellwisher or Essence Warden), or bigger instances (something like Thragtusk or Pelakka Wurm). Essence Warden really appeals to me because it can stop combos better and is less threatening, but it's quite useless to draw later. Ravenous Baloth holds a special place in my heart, but is probably not worth it because of the low amount of beasts I run (unless I bring back Rampaging Baloth). Spike Weaver looks fun as well because it's also a combat trick that I find myself using quite often with Spike Weaver (I used to play Secret Force back in the day).
Thoughts?
I will lead off with my default stance, which is that adding life gain for the sake of life gain is usually a losing strategy. I like life gain that would happen if I were just pursuing my default strategy (cards like Loxodon Warhammer or Lifeblood Hydra) and tend to avoid cards that exist only to gain life.
That having been said, I'm wondering if an option for life gain in this deck might not be warranted. I like some of the options you listed -- Essence Warden, Wellwisher (one of my favorite cards from when I started playing) -- while others -- Thragtusk don't speak to me quite as much.
Of the two elves, I think I would prefer Wellwisher to Essence Warden as it is less dependent on what your opponents are doing and has nice synergy with Seedborn Muse. If I were generating more tokens throughout the game (like with your Hornet Queen or Avenger of Zendikar) I think the Warden might be more attractive. I have a few cards which haven't been pulling their weight (Greenwarden of Murasa and Cloudstone Curio) and I think I might test Wellwisher in one slot and Lifeblood Hydra in the other.
For the cards I'm not crazy about, I've never really been a Thragtusk fan. I sort of think of it as penny-ante in a format that's all about hitting the big bets. Pelakka Wurm has the same trouble - it's too expensive to be worth forming a recursive loop with Temur Sabertooth, but not enough impact to be a one-off.
Now that I'm reading Thragtusk a bit more carefully, I see that it is a "leave battlefield" condition for creating a beast, not a "is put into a graveyard." That does help its case a bit in my mind, as I had been imagining it the other way. Let's see, with the Sabertooth out, that would be seven mana for five life and a 3/3 beast. I might have to put a bit more thought into that. On the other hand, once I've set myself up with a Sabertooth and 7+ mana, there's probably more impactful things that I could be doing.
I still prefer the two cheap elves for their ease of tutoring and larger long-term impact, I think. But I do have a bit more respect for Thragtusk than I did when I started typing this section.
+ Ohran Viper
- Greenwarden of Murasa
I wanted to try Ohran Viper for a while now as a steady stream of card draw combined with being a good surprise blocker. Greenwarden is fine, but a bit expensive for what it does. So far, the combination of Genesis and Eternal Witness proved to be plenty recursion that's backed up by self-bouncing targets for reuse. Might come back if I notice I need more recursion, but I think I'll manage.
I don't know that I love the Viper. I've played with it some in other decks, and I've found that (since it lacks real evasion), it spends most of its time running into 3/x random tokens, indestructible or recursive creatures, pillow forts, and just generally not earning its deckslot back. I think that a cantrip creature would be better in this slot -- I know that I'm in the process of cutting Masked Admirers right now, but I do think that they're better than Ohran Viper.
The Greenwarden of Murasa has found his way onto my cut list as well. I'm not sure for what quite yet -- I always want more draw, of course!
+ Momentous Fall
- Rampaging Baloths
Rampaging Baloths were the worst of my 'finishers' and basically never necessary. I don't know, they're good, but not super exciting in my deck and I needed the room. Momentous Fall gives me card draw, life gain and a sac outlet at instant speed. Sounds good.
I generally support cutting "Big Dumb Green Creatures", if the Baloths will pardon the phrase. I think you will be happy with the Fall; it's never let me down (except for that time it got flipped by the Genesis Wave. Grumble).
+ Viridian Zealot
- not sure, to lazy to look better
After my last game I noticed I wanted a little more enchantment/artifact removal with my low amount of tutors. I like the rattlesnaky-ness of Caustic Caterpillar so far, and this is also an elf.
This is a good add, I think, since you're running lower on the tutors than I am. Come to think of it, actually, Summoner's Pact was the only tutor I saw in either game. Maybe I need to up my density of those...
+ Wirewood Symbiote
- Panharmonicon
We discussed this cut enough, I think. I chose the Symbiote to keep some potential to do shenanigans, but on a creature AND with potential to save Yeva from untimely demise.
As you say, I don't think there's anything further to discuss here. ^.^
Both the Curio and Amulet were meant as protection for my board, but I think I have enough of that and now need some more protection against my opponents' boards.
Still also thinking about trying out Reincarnation, but I'm not sure what to cut.
Beast Within is the best, and I recommend that every deck have ten of them. Hehe. I still can't believe that I read it for so long as "target noncreature permanent". I went into length about my thoughts of Thragtusk above, and I'm looking forward to hearing how he performs for you.
Nice! I'm thinking about cutting my Sol Ring like you did in favor of Joraga Treespeaker. I'm just a little hesitant to take off the "EDH training wheels"!
How has Lifecrafter's Bestiary performed for you? I usually am running close enough to my mana supply that I don't know about affording an extra G for every creature, and the scry doesn't seem like it would be worth the three mana, sorcery-speed investment.
@Molder Slug - How has it been working out for you? I'm down to a single artifact, so if there would be any deck to run it in, it's this one. Still a bit on the fence because it doesn't kill stuff at a timing I want, doesn't destroy the worst offenders if the controller doesn't want it to, and it's telegraphed with a huge target on its forehead.
It's certainly on my watchlist, and did not perform at all well the other day, but it's not in immediate danger of being cut. I do like it later in the game, hopefully after I've wiped all the artifacts once, to help keep the board clear going forward. Still, unless it becomes more relevant in future games, I could see it going.
@Lifegain - I think we're more or less on the same page. Thragtusk doesn't reeaaally appeal to me either, but I thought the body and the burst might be interesting. After thinking about it some more, I'm leaning towards Essence Warden. It's an awkward topdeck, but it's the less threatening off all of the options, and only costs 1 mana. The thought of flashing Essence Warden in in response to something like a Storm Herd, or a Genesis Wave sounds like a lot of fun. It also has the added benefit of dealing somewhat better with burst damage combos that involve recasting creatures, like Krenko+Purphoros, or Blood Artist+Sac outlet+recursive black guy. Instead of the Thragtusk (that I don't own anyway), I'm going to slot in Essence Warden to see how it works out.
I think this is a good opportunity to work together. I was more excited about Wellwisher of the two elves, so I will test that one and you can test out Essence Warden. I know that the Warden, at least in my group, does tend to draw a bit of hate while it usually wants to be run out as early as possible. I'm hoping to be able to sit on Wellwisher until I absolutely need it or I can protect it.
Adding life gain to the deck does introduce the possibility of Tornado, which is probably the best all-around green destruction after Beast Within. It does cost a ton of mana and life, but with a Seedborn Muse and a lifegain engine out, it might be worthwhile. I'll put in on my radar for now. It might be a little win-more, only good after I have already seized control of the game.
@Ohran Viper being unreliable card advantage because it runs into random blockers - You're right, and maybe it's not good enough for exactly this reason. My reasoning was the other way around, actually. I was looking into deathtouch blockers to flash in as removal. Ohran Viper does that well enough (although Thornweald Archer might just be better), but if I do not need the blocker, I can maybe also draw a card here and there. Masked Admirers is just so expensive for what it does, and recurring and replaying it even more so. Maybe it's worth it in my version of the deck because it's basically the definition of durdle. I haven't seen the Viper in play yet (ever in EDH, actually), so I'll keep it in for now. Let's see if it's enough of a rattlesnake/removal spell to warrant being a less consistent source of card draw.
Let me know how it works for you. I do want as much card draw as possible, so I'd love for it to work -- that just hasn't been my experience.
@Cutting Sol Ring - Well, I do think Sol Ring makes the deck better. I'd rather cut Mana Crypt from your list because I generally don't want to be taking extra damage if I can help it, and the 1 mana doesn't matter that much if you're playing a grindy EDH deck. That being said, I haven't missed it at all and I like the idea of having a deck without Sol Ring in it. Also, Joraga Treespeaker is just very good. It's might be slower than Sol Ring, and a worse top deck, but people tend to groan less at a t1 Treespeaker than they do at a t1 Sol Ring.
I'm not quite ready yet to pull the trigger on cutting either card, but I do think that Sol Ring would be the first to go of the two. I haven't yet had a chance to really play with Mana Crypt, but at least in testing the card has been bananas. Not needing to tap a land to play it opens the way for some really unexpected plays, like a T2 Yeva following a T1 Forest-go. Every time I've drawn it, something crazy has happened. Sol Ring, on the other hand, is sol ring. Unexciting, only explosive on a delayed basis (since I have to give up my green mana to get colorless). I don't yet see either one going, although I would love to find some room for Joraga Treespeaker.
@Lifecrafter's Bestiary - I absolutely love this card, but I haven't spent that much time with it in play because it tends to get removed very quickly. Which is usually the correct play, because it can create quite a lot of card advantage over a couple of turns. It probably depends a bit on your play style and the games your in. If you're with your back against the wall from early on, you won't be able to leverage it because of the extra mana. In less cutthroat games, I'm very happy to just play my cards off-curve if I can and draw some extra cards. Look at it like this: if we had a card that read '1GG, enchantment, upkeep: pay G, at the beginning of your upkeep draw a card'. Would you play that? I think I would, and Bestiary comes very close to being at least that in this deck (remember I play more than 50 creatures), with the potential to be much more. The scry even helps you to dig towards a creature if you don't have any.
Having said that, I can see it being less good if you run less creatures - or just more bursty card draw - like you. I don't see it as a must-include, but in my list I've been very very happy with it. I think not having cut it yet while I've been purging all the sorcery speed from list says something about how much I like it.
That pretty much mirrors my thinking on the card. I will probably pick up a copy since they're under a dollar now, just in case, but continue to lean on the larger card draw cards.
So, time to discuss my changes for the deck. Masked Admirers is already gone, replaced by Duskwatch Recruiter and I will update the OP to reflect this. Also being cut are Cloudstone Curio and Wave of Vitriol. I've discussed the Curio's performance (or lack thereof) at length and I think it's time to pull the trigger. The Wave, I found, was too much mana for what I wanted it to do. I still have outs to Theros gods (Brutalizer Exarch if they're not creatures, Willow Satyr if they're not) and I found too often that the non-basic land clause hurt me more than my opponents. Troublesome non-basics can be dealt with using any number of other removal spells in the deck. Also, Winding Canyons is getting a cut as I haven't once found that I need it as a backup to Yeva. It can come back if the Tuck rule changes.
They'll be replaced by Wellwisher (as we discussed above), Natural Order (again upping the number of tutors in the deck), and Deserted Temple, which I have just acquired.
Also, while I'm not altering the makeup of the deck for this yet, I am also tinkering with the ramp package and trying to move away from small-potato ramp to much larger game. My mana production gets humming best when Gaea's Cradle or Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx is online, so I'm looking to increase the consistency of finding the "big lands" as well as untappers for them. This will replace the "search for a basic land" creatures with land untapping creatures, which should (unless they get destroyed) provide the same T4 5 mana while having the possibility for much, much larger plays later in the game. I'm also looking to trim some of the fat of other areas to increase the amount of ramp.
After watching and thinking about my friend's Patron of the Orochi deck, how about him as a backup to Seedborn Muse?
PRO -
Can be fetched by Fierce Empath
Doubles basic mana on my turn for big card drawing sorceries
Is not named 'Seedborn Muse'
CON -
Costs ten billion mana (plus or minus a few dozen)
Is a symmetrical effect
Only affects BASIC lands, doesn't work with 'quality land' ramp package Sakura-Tribe Elder is the only snake to offer (major flavor fail)
So far, I haven't really needed a "backup to Seedborn Muse plan" but I do like him being able to be fetched by the Empath. There's been a lot of test hands where he was my only tutor available, or the only one I could recur with the Sabertooth/Symbiote bounce package. I don't have a propsed cut, I'm mostly just throwing him out there so I remember he's on the table.
PRO Beastman
Works better after a wrath (doesn't rely on any other permanent for card advantage)
All modes are relevant (+1 card advantage, -3 mana acceleration, ultimate is bonkers)
Since his +1 is the card advantage mode, he'll stick around unless the table wants him dead
Has an easier color requirement (but less devotion)
PRO Hunter
Since Yeva exists and stuff, he'll almost always be 4 guaranteed draw. Beastman will hit only an average of 2 creatures (~40% of the deck) AND he has to reveal them
It is actual real draw and stuff, which can hit spells, enchantments, and lands. SECRET enchantments, spells, and lands
Is one mana cheaper, which can be a huge deal (with more devotion/harder color requirement)
But his +1 and ultimate modes are basically useless. He's more a sorcery than a planeswalker
Right now, I think I'm leaning towards Caller of Beasts for my deck. Also, I did acquire a Lifecrafter's Beastiary and I plan to test it out.
EDIT: Forgot to mention, and it's probably a minor point, but I swapped Creeping Corrosion and Seeds of Innocence. I think the one mana discount is worth some piddly life gain.
I think you're probably right in your assessment of Patron of the Orochi. It does seem a little win-more in its main use, and I think if I start to have serious problems with Seedborn Muse getting exiled, I should probably just start packing Riftsweeper. I think I'll still acquire a Patron, maybe test it, but not include it in the deck list.
I still like Garruk, Caller of Beasts better. You're right that the ultimate doesn't really matter in either case, but I do prefer the second ability on Garruk. It's not useful 100% of the time, but I can foresee a game where I'm able to hit 6 mana but want to be able to dump something else out on the same turn as him. The +1 ability isn't as money-guaranteed of draw, but it does force the opponent to expend resources to deal with him, rather than him just offing himself without their help. And I don't think drawing (probably) four cards is that much better than drawing (probably) two cards when you're talking about the difference between a planeswalker and a sorcery. I'll test the Caller of Beasts and let you know what I find.
Speaking of which, I did get to play a game today, but I don't know if it's going to go into the annals of "effective tests" of Yeva. The game started slowly, with three forests and a Shaman of Forgotten Ways being my first three turns. On T4, though, things got nutty.
SO, T4 I dropped a Gaea's Cradle I had drawn and cast the Temptation, only for all three opponents to take me up on it. Kozilek fetched the third piece of Urzatron he was assembling and Sidisi grabbed a Cabal Coffers; I'm not sure what Venser took. I boggled a bit, then added Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx, Deserted Temple, Yavimaya Hollow, and High Market (I had a Willow Satyr in hand) to the board and passed turn. My plan was to drop Yeva and go to town starting on Sidisi (to my right's) end phase, but then he dropped a Archfiend of Depravity. I didn't have a Beast Within in hand, so I had to do things the hard way.
On my T5, I Tooth and Nail entwined for Seedborn Muse and Polukranos, World Eater and let the Shaman of Forgotten Ways die. On Venser's turn (to my left), I hit Monsterous for 11 and killed the Archfiend. I then added Yeva on Kozilek's turn and a Karametra's Acolyte at the end of Sidisi's turn. Since Venser had tapped out for something or the other, on my turn, I was able to Genesis Wave for x=21. It slammed in a variety of goodstuff, some lands, and lots of draw. It also flipped a Craterhoof Behemoth (exciting!) and a Timbermare (boo!). I smacked Kozilek for 14 with the Timbermare, selected my best seven (Eternal Witness being the most important keep and Genesis the most important discard) and passed turn.
Venser kept all his mana open. Kozilek played All is Dust. In response to the wipe, I generated something on the order of 90 mana (that Tempting offer was ridiculous) and let it resolve, playing Yeva from the command zone and then using Eternal Witness to get and play the Muse, dropping a Primordial Sage I'd had in hand and a few random creatures, with a board of seven or eight by the time all was said and done. I planned to use Genesis to return the Behemoth to hand on my turn and win, but Venser then cast Engulf the Shore at the end of Kozilek's turn, bouncing my entire hand.
Sidisi tutored for something on his turn, then I played the Muse and three or four other creatures on my turn, plus a Survival of the Fittest. Venser and Kozilek had no answers, and Sidisi put a board wipe of some sort on the board. I used Survival to tutor for Temur Sabertooth and Kamahl, Fist of Krosa, generated ~40 green mana (again, that land combination was insane) and everyone scooped.
It was a brutal, crushing example of why to never ever take a Tempting Offer, so I don't feel like Yeva got properly put through her paces. I did like how well the deck responded to Wraths, needing two board clears in a turn to seriously affect its position (and, even if the second wrath had been destroy, I still would have had Genesis to begin rebuilding again). On the other hand, I might have accidentally taught my group that they need to be running more land destruction.
I did sign up for a commander league in the store we visited today (doing Modern Masters draft and then hanging out afterwards). The League is going to use a ~$70 cap, so I won't be able to play this incarnation of Yeva or anything like it. I'm debating between taking one of my other decks, building something new, or trying to make a budget Yeva build. If I do, I'll post the specs on here to see what everyone thinks.
Right, I'm so tired now that I had to google the oracle text to remember what the name of Survival of the Fittest was. I'm off to bed!
I have sort of a love-hate relationship with the Magus of the Library, and I've been debating it back and forth since you mentioned it. On the one hand, he seems like (somewhat situational) card advantage and ramp in one package; then I think "Yeah, but he's not good ramp -- two mana could get me Priest of Titania or a leveled up Joraga Treespeaker -- or really good card advantage -- I could have a Duskwatch Recruiter* for two mana."
* - Side note: I fell in love with Duskwatch Recruiter. That card is bonkers. Krallenhorde Howler is ok too, I guess.
There's something to be said for redundancy, of course, and it's nice to spend one deckslot instead of two. I do have a plan for some live testing to see if I can resolve this little mental impasse I have about the card, which I'll discuss later in this post.
Heartwood Storyteller seems like it could be great in your deck. I just worry that it will give you opponents (other than the one casting the non-creature spell) too much card advantage; after all, in a four-person game, two opponents are drawing one card for the one that you draw. Since you have an easier time blanking the combat phase than I do, maybe that won't be a huge deal. I probably run too many non-creature spells to be worth trying in my deck.
I will make one last plea for Wirewood Symbiote, which is to remember that the creature it untaps doesn't have to be an elf. It can untap, say, Karametra's Acolyte for instance. In addition to saving against wipes, the Symbiote multiplies the effect of Elvish Visionary while also untapping big mana generation, which is why I'm solidly in love with it. I do think my deck has a larger elf sub-theme than yours does, though, so I can see your hesitation.
Right, so on to my plan to test Magus of the Library. I mentioned that I signed up for a Commander league which will likely have a "salary cap" of $70 (give or take) for deck construction. I decided this might be a good opportunity to test some of the cheaper "other options" that we've discussed in this thread and I put together the following list:
As of right now, this deck is ~$67 on TCG mid. I left myself a couple dollars wiggle room. I might look into adding Pathbreaker Ibex (~$3) as I'm not sure if Kamahl, Fist of Krosa can handle things on his own. I'm also debating Rites of Flourishing but worried it would give too much symmetrical help to my opponents. I bumped up the land count a tad to compensate for losing Mana Crypt and Sol Ring. Seedborn Muse stayed, of course, but if I really had to cut the fat again I guess she could turn into Patron of the Orochi (then I could add Time of Need as a dirt cheap tutor! -- actually, I might do that anyway and just rely of Kamahl to do the job himself...hmm). There's also Lifespinner, but there aren't enough spirits to really make that reliable.
I'm getting off track. You'll notice quite a few of your own suggestions in there -- Magus of the Library, Hornet Nest (I still love that concept), Reincarnation (I couldn't figure out a way to keep Eternal Witness). I'm also hopeful for Evolutionary Leap, one of my favorite recently printed card advantage engines, although not one I love for normal-Yeva.
I'm actually sort of curious to see how the deck performs. So far, in goldfishing it has either gone bananas by ~T6 or completely putzed out. I'd love to hear what you think!
I'm glad to hear that Wirewood Symbiote might get another chance. He's really been a house for me! You'll notice too that I'm giving Yisan, the Wanderer Bard an opportunity in the budget list - maybe he'll perform well enough to get into the main game. I may also have to get some tips from you on how to play more politically. The league deck won't be able to pack the same power as the main list, so I'll have to try and get cleverer.
On that note, you're right about the early sweepers. Creeping Corrosion and Seeds of Innocence got the immediate cut, along with Burgeoning, and were replaced by my old friends Wood Elves, Farhaven Elf, and Yavimaya Dryad. I kept Wave of Vitriol, figuring that by the time I hit enough mana people would be doing degenerate enough things to warrant a huge reset. Bane of Progress got to stay because he's a creature. I also love the suggestion of returning to the 3cc land acceleration. To be honest, I sort of forgot about them after I swapped to the land-untappers in the main deck. But without Nykthos or Cradle, those bums won't do anything here.
Oh, I got the email with the league rules. $60 salary cap, so I had to shave a bit more fat. Luckily I saved a few dollars by switching the Muse, Kamahl, Wellwisher, and Fierce Empath to their Onslaught-block printings. Those are the ones I own/use anyway, and tappedout had been using the (higher) prices of their limited run reprintings. Also, I am allowed to swap seven singles per week, providing I remain below the salary cap. I'm writing back to ask whether or not basic lands count towards the cap, as I will save almost six dollars (or roughly one Eternal Witness...) if I don't have to figure them in at ~$0.15 each.
I also swapped Arbor Elf, Llanowar Elves, and Molder Slug for Wall of Blossoms, Carven Caraytid, and Stampeding Wildebeests. I like the suggestion of a bounce subtheme, which should provide extra card advantage. This deck can't run the tutors of the main deck, so I'm going to have to dig the old fashioned way. Good thinking there! Now if I can just remember that the Beests are a 5/4 trampler and I'm allowed to swing them at people...I have another deck where their main job is to recur Eternal Witness and they'll sit around for turns on end facing a clear board because I forget that they do more than bounce my own creatures. Also, Pathbreaker Ibex came in for Somberwald Sage. That was mostly a budget question to bring in the Goat's big salary.
On flyer defense, I'm hoping that the Arbor Colossus and the Hornet Queen will be enough backup to Spore Frog (who lost his best recursion engine) and Timbermare. I do like fog effects, but I'm trying to keep the number of non-creatures to a minimum (for Enshrined Memories and Duskwatch Recruiter, who are going to have to do most of the heavy lifting). Moment's Peace is my favorite of the maybe-I-can-afford it options, but I'll keep it on the bench for now.
Thanks a lot for the great suggestions! I think you made this deck almost 100% better. I feel a lot better with the extra cantrippers and the land acceleration.
EDIT: Just got confirmation, basic lands don't count. That frees up ~$5.00, so I think I might add in Eternal Witness. Reincarnation is my initial cut target, but I might find something else. I'll think on it.
Alright, for the good of science and experimentation, Reincarnation got to stay in. Enshrined Memories took the axe instead, as in testing I never once encountered a situation where I was happy to be drawing/playing that card. And, I think you'll be happy to hear this, I've decided to test Veilstone Amulet as well. I can't remember what used to be in the slot I'm replacing it with, but I have a feeling there will be more spot removal in this meta than I'm used to. I'm also trying to pick up a spider-free version of Sylvan Safekeeper so I can sub that in later if it ends up being a problem.
I have a feeling you're right about Wave of Vitriol, too. I just hate to wade into any unknown meta without a real emergency big-red-button I can mash. Call that the first cut if I'm facing a bunch of fair, creature-based value decks without Theros gods or various Colossi or Darksteel Forge+whatevers.
Zendikar Resurgent, however, I'm a little higher on. I don't think it's a perfect solution, since it's not a creature, but I'm trying to think of it as Soul of the Harvest/Primordial Sage #3, with the mana double effect a side-effect. I have a feeling I really need to double down on card draw with this deck, since I'm losing the tutors. Plus it's cheap as dirt, lol.
Sounds like things kick off on April Fool's Day. There's a good omen -- maybe I should sneak the Gaea's Cradle into the deck, then pretend to remember that I had to use it as a proxy because I ran out of Forests APRIL FOOLS LOL.
It's almost believable because I run so many green decks that I actually did run out of Forests at one point and had to order a bulk lot of them. I still have tons of the other lands...
(NB: I will not do that. I'm going to try not to create maximum feelbads on the first day. )
So, I had the chance to play Yeva Prime list last night. It was a just a little three player game, facing the same Grenzo, Dungeon Warden seen before and a Kaalia of the Vast cheating-fatties deck. We were playing pretty late, so you'll have to forgive me if I forget a few details.
My deck had other plans, providing an immediate Ancient Tomb top deck. I played Yeva turn 3, top decking into a Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx. With my luck firmly established, I dropped Selvala on T4 (Grenzo came out with one counter on T3, Kaalia dropped on curve on T4). Since I had gone first, I was able to respond to Kaalia's attack phase by dropping Polukranos and, with my insane mana generation, monstrifying him for five, killing Kaalia and Grenzo. To add to my good luck, the draw off Selvala for the 5/5 Polukranos was a Genesis Wave. Kaalia then killed Polukranos to keep me from tapping Selvala for 10 mana on the next turn (which was wise).
I was still able to key the Wave for x=12. The most important flip was a Greater Good. Garruk, Caller of Beasts hit play too and drew me into some stuff. Molder Slug had come out to play, and I let him kill a Junktroller Grenzo had flipped off the bottom then sacrificed him to the Greater Good, drawing into a Willow Satyr, an Eternal Witness, and some other stuff.
At this point, the game was pretty well in hand. Willow Satyr stole a recast Grenzo and then stayed tapped to keep him from his shenanigans. Kaalia came back and popped me in the mouth with an Avacyn, Angel of Hope, but I had Wellwisher up and running at that point and a Spore Frog in hand for if things got crazy.
I ended it with a Tooth and Nail entwined into Craterhoof Behemoth (i know, i know) and a just-in-case Seedborn Muse. Timbermare came down to tap out all possible blockers. I felt a little bad about the Tooth-into-Hoof, but I figured the other two were probably just glad to end a game that I had such clear control over.
Things That Went Well:
--Good luck, on winning the go-first roll and on topdecks throughout the game
--Willow Satyr. I feel vindicated, that card is bananas. He kept Grenzo from climbing back into things. I just regret that I didn't have two of him to steal Kaalia too.
--Polukranos. I don't remember exactly, but at some point he climbed out of the graveyard to wipe Grenzo and Kaalia's board a second time. There were a couple turns in the middle there that I don't remember exactly.
--Garruk, Caller of Beasts. His +1 felt powerful, especially as I was able to repeat it a couple times. I drew one card once and four cards another time. No one seemed terribly concerned by him, but that might be because I was doing so many other crazy things. I'll keep testing him to make sure.
Things That Didn't Go Well:
--That nagging feeling that I would have been in major trouble without that huge Genesis Wave or the insane land topdecks. Luck was strongly in my favor, and I'll need to watch for games when it isn't.
--That's about it, really.
Other notes:
--I'm going to update the OP to reflect the changes to the ramp package. I'm liking the land-untapping/fetching a lot. Even if I did have insane luck in that game, I also saw a Crop Rotation and a Reap and Sow, so in theory I should have been able to fetch up one or two pieces even if I had only seen basic lands.
--Annoyingly, I've had a difficult time getting my hands on a Voyaging Satyr of all bloody things. I can acquire a Gaea's Cradle and a Survival of the Fittest for this silly deck, and I can't find a bleeping common from Theros. Ugh. He's being played by a Ley Druid in the meantime.
--Speaking of basic lands, I've started pimping out the basic forests in the deck. I'm a sucker for pre-8e frames and "unique" artwork, so the Mirage Forests and a few of their like-kind have started creeping in.
So, we actually started a day early because there were only four signups and three of us could make Friday. The other two decks were a mono-B Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath deck that seemed to be a control/demon shell and a Kalemne, Disciple of Ioras out-of-box precon. I'm not too sure what the third deck was, but I don't think counterspells will be much of an issue so Gaea's Herald will be an easy cut.
I lost the first game we played pretty badly despite seeing a Seedborn Muse in my opening grip. Kalmene came out of the gate early with lots of mana rocks, and I didn't have an answer until I played Bane of Progress on T6. By that time, the two of them had jammed up the skies and were chunking away at my life total. I had a good draw engine set up, but a Deadly Tempest reset my board and put me below ten. A turn or two later, just as I was recovering, an angel of some sort hit me in the face and then a Fiery Confluence finished me off. Ob Nixilis ended up grabbing control with 5/5 demon tokens and taking the win a couple turns later. I didn't see Hornet Queen, Spore Frog, Arbor Colossus, or any of my other anti-flyer tech.
The second game started off more slowly, as I durdled around with Multani's Acolyte and Wirewood Symbiote for the opening turns. I didn't see a Muse or a tutor the whole game, but I was able to stick a decent amount of card draw (including Magus of the Library, which performed quite well) and some Wood Elves into a T6 Zendikar Resurgent with a mana open for Spore Frog. At the end of Kalemne's next turn, I dropped Terastadon to convert his lands into elephants and a Kamahl, Fist of Krosa. I overran Ob on my turn, then dropped Timbermare before Kalemne's combat phase and hit him for ~90 damage (he'd been lifegaining from Victory's Herald).
The deck was a lot slower and less powerful than the normal version, but it performed adequately. If I'd seen even just a Hornet Queen the first game, I think I could have pulled it out. I should have a chance to play some more games this week, and hopefully figure out what the fourth deck is for cuts.
Speaking of which, I asked what the budget restrictions for the seven cards we can switch each week are. There will be no restrictions (other than the EDH banlist). I clarified that I own things like the Cradle and the organizer said that would be fine. I know at least two of the other players have big collections, so I'm going to have to assume that I will have to competitive-up Yeva ASAP. The tenative seven I'm considering are:
I'm not 100% sold on the Reap and Sow yet. I might replace that slot with another tutor, perhaps Natural Order or Chord of Calling, or else something like Genesis Wave.
Good to hear from you! I've rather had the opposite experience, with lots of playing magic but little time to sit down and write about it.
The league is going very well, to the point where I'm starting to be a little worried that I might need to tone the deck down a bit, as I'd rather have a community of players I can game with going forward than risk offending them by going for the throat. So far, the deck is 6-3 in 3/4-player games and 3-0 in duels. Granted, a couple of those wins came after I had been down early and people decided to show me mercy instead of killing me off, then I was able to get into a lock and pull out the victory. I'm hoping they won't keep making that mistake. Also, there should be more board wipes filtering into the meta, which will probably give other decks a better chance.
Interesting side note: the meta is dominated by flyers. In 10 games, I have yet to once even SEE Arbor Colossus in my hand and I've only had Hornet Queen twice. My savior has been Timbermare, especially when it is protecting me from Inferno Titan and its on-attack trigger. I'm glad to see my almost dogmatic belief in this janky card rewarded. It did get passed around the table in amazement the first time it hit the board as a "fog" as some of the players weren't around for Time Spiral block.
There are a couple new decks I'm facing off against too: an Oloro precon-with-upgrades and a Daretti straight-out-of-box. With the heavy artifact slant of the meta, the changes I made were:
These changes added A LOT of late game power and, along with the mercy I was shown, helped me to stabilize some games that I was on the fast track to losing. However, I notice the deck is still playing a lot for the end-game and assuming they start targeting me more in the opening phases, there's every possibility that I could lose before T7 (Kalemne especially is a beating). As such, my next seven planned changes are:
However, if the meta is still having a difficult time adjusting to my deck at the end of the week, I might instead switch in the Willow Satyr pieces and some of the utility lands and save the ridiculous opening pieces for later.
With the cards I switched out, I'm afraid to say that I don't miss Reincarnation at all. It felt like a less powerful, more conditional Eternal Witness and I was never glad to draw it in the opening games. Veilstone Amulet wasn't a bad play, but since I was switching to more mass artifact destruction, I didn't feel like it would pull its weight going forward. The other cuts were "cute tricks" that didn't feel worth my time.
As for Amonkhet!
I'm not quite as excited for the set as I had been for Kaladesh and Shadows blocks, but there are some pieces I like. I think I'll invest in single cards for this set, instead of buying a box as had been my tradition for the last couple. Also, our enthusiasm for individual cards is a bit different, which is good as it will let us test the set more quickly! I was thinking about starting a "set review" section to the OP as new sets rotate in, and I would love your opinions!
As for mine:
Vizier of the Menagerie: A card that I will never be able to spell correctly without checking. This is virtual card advantage, something I'm always pining after in mono-green. Not having to reveal is brilliant and I hope that's the way these sort of cards are worded into the future. Even the color-fixing isn't terrible, as the number of color-less producing lands like Ancient Tomb can make double or triple green spells more unreliable. Will go in for immediate testing, not sure of the slot yet.
Manglehorn: Here is the card I'm most excited about. It's half of a Reclamation Sage tagged to the first green ETB tapped effect since Root Maze. As I have mentioned many times, I hate artifact rocks, and the fact that this is not even symmetrical makes me giggle with joy. This will also go in for immediate testing, probably in the Gaea's Herald slot. More on that:
Prowling Serpopard: A card I will never be able to say without giggling. I'm not that high on the Gaea's Herald effect right at the moment, nor am I convinced that this is a strict upgrade to it (one more mana, no elf type). If it drops below a dollar in price, I'll probably pick one up to test it out, but so far I haven't had much trouble with counterspells.
Rhonas the Indomitable: He's a little bit too much "big dumb green creature" for me. The only spots I could see him in would be a "finisher" position, and I don't think he replaces either Kamahl or Hoof. I'm interested to hear how any testing you do with him goes, though.
Some others I'm thinking about:
Throne of the God-Pharaoh: A non-combat (non-tutorable) win condition in green. I won't run it, but it's worth thinking about for, like, maybe a saporling deck that abuses Sprout Swarm? There a role for this card somewhere, I just haven't thought of it yet, but I'm pretty sure it's not a role in Yeva.
Shefet Monitor: I really like this card. It's not an auto-test like Manglehorn and Vizier, but it is very, very close to getting the nod over Yavimaya Elder. It's one less total mana (five v. four) for one less land, but putting that land into play instead of hand. I would need the four mana all on one turn, instead of three and two, which could hurt in a three-land mana screw. And if I need, I could stick the monitor as a 6/5 for Greater Good or Momentous Fall. Just typing this out, I'm starting to reconsider. Maybe I will test it over the Elder...
Just finished week two of the league, with Yeva continuing to hold onto first place overall in the standings. The other decks are starting to adjust to the playstyle and identify key threats (poor Temur Sabertooth is getting all the hate). The biggest problem in week two was that, while consistency had improved considerably, my mono-green deck was being consistently out-ramped by red-white and mono-black. Also, in a delightfully ironic twist, the Oloro deck now seems to be about 90% counterspells, making me regret my hasty cut of Gaea's Herald.
On the other hand, the draw suite is (if anything) more impressive than the actual deck's since there are so many cantripping creatures. Magus of the Library also has done some really impressive work, to the point where I'm considering him for the main deck. I figure I'll be testing some stuff out for Amonkhet anyway, so I can try him as well once April's over, maybe in the Juniper-Order Ranger slot.
My changes for week three are about trying to improve the speed of the deck.
I didn't add the Gaea's Herald back in because Oloro is only one deck in the meta, and while I'll have a bad dueling matchup with him, hopefully other people will be doing scary enough things in multiplayer that I can sneak some stuff through. Tooth and Nail is the only card that's not oriented towards the early game, and I went back and forth a couple times between it and Priest of Titania, but ultimately decided that the extra power of the Tooth was more important. Genesis Wave was also under consideration, along with Yavimaya Hollow and Genesis, and those four are likely inclusions for the last week.
Compost was probably the hardest cut, but I have to admit that I was missing tons of triggers for it anyway and the Library seemed like a stronger T2 enchantment. I could have run both, of course, but I don't want to reduce the creature density too far or increase the non-creature
The deck is starting to resemble its actual form (and price tag!) more and more. A couple other cards missing from the main deck have made me rethink them: Evolutionary Leap in particular has been an all star in the games where I've been able to resolve it. Magus of the Library I mentioned earlier. Hornet Queen has been solid, but I think the greater consistency of TurboFrog in the main deck might make her stand out more here. Ulvenwald Tracker, although he is in the main deck, has really surprised me. His greatest moment yet has come while I was recurring a Beast Within soft-lock with Eternal Witness and Temur Sabertooth (and tons of mana), where he was using the indestructible Sabertooth to punch the 3/3 Beasts to death.
Yisan, the Wanderer Bard I'm afraid to say has continued to be a disappointment. Expect to see him cut in the next round. He (barely) held onto his job this time around by at least usually fetching a Ulvenwald Tracker for me.
MEANWHILE, over in Amonkhet land, I had thoughts on a few other cards:
Kefnet's Monument (and the various other monuments): Yeva likes playing creatures and getting extra value out of them. The tap and the looting ones seem the best to me. However, they're another do-nothing-alone artifact like Panharmonicon and Cloudstone Curio that I think would just clog up the hand and be difficult to weave around. It's worth keeping an eye on, though, and maybe testing. Shame the green one is so godawful.
Sandwurm Convergence: Dune-themed and including the words "...cannot attack you" made me sit up straight and take a look at this. I think it's probably too slow -- I can find better ways to spend eight mana -- but I think I'll pick up a copy for testing, maybe in another deck? Or a 75% build?
Harvest Season: Holy moly, this is insane. I found them preordering for a buck each and grabbed five of them. Maybe they'll drop down further, but I don't think that'll end up being a terrible investment even if they do. THAT having been said, I don't think Yeva's exactly the right deck for this sort of thing -- but it does start my little gray cells working on that Throne of the God-Pharaoh non-combat phase green deck I had been thinking about. Maybe get Symbiotic Deployment in there? (which then means Elfhame Sanctuary and possibly Recycle. Hmm...)
In other non-Yeva news, I'm brewing another mono-green control deck, trying out Stax with Titania, Protector of Argoth at the helm. There's nothing really revolutionary about the build yet, but I'm looking forward to another take on the obviously-most-powerful control color.
Anyway, that's my checkup. Hope you've been able to find some games, Squirrely! I'm off to bed to dream about how to tap more creatures in green - and which general would best head this pile of cards. Kamahl? I do want to put a lot of creatures into play. Nemata, Grove Guardian to put creatures in play? Rishkar, Peema Renegade has some synergy. Baby Nissa for card advantage? Dosan, the Falling Leaf, so everyone has to join me at sorcery speed? Seshiro the Anointed for snake-tribal card draw? Hua Tuo, Honored Physician for recursion? How does green have so many control-oriented generals?
Harvest Season (and Throne of the God-Pharaoh) - I really like the Wort list you posted. It looks pretty prime for blowing people up for huge damage, and I think the harvest season will do great work in the deck.
I did consider her briefly, even slapping together a quick list on but I kept coming back to the problem of "well, I could just cast Comet Storm copied for a million instead." I ended up building Rishkar, Peema Renegade instead -- the thread is here -- and I own most of the pieces, so I'll probably slap together the deck list once I get my hands on the Amonkhet cards to test it out.
I think you're right with the monuments and I don't plan to test any of them out, at least not immediately (or not in Yeva). I totally respect your decision not to play them in off-colored decks, by the way. It's not a qualm I have -- there's a little too much Spike in me, probably, and not enough Vorthos -- but I can understand where you're coming from.
The Oloro deck in the league added a moon laser, changing a lot of the complexion of the league. I lost two games against him in a duel and won one, learning that I needed to keep constant pressure up to keep him from hitting fifty life, tutoring and a-firin' his lasers. Bigger multiplayer games went better, with the moon laser being less of a threat. I won two of three multiplayer games, with one of them being a classic Yeva cockroach "I don't care how many times you wipe the board, I'll recover" scenario.
I have some more games this Wednesday and Thursday. We'll see how the new cards help.
Main Deck
The league (and Amonkhet) have made me want to test some new cards in the deck. I won't get a chance to actually try them out until the league is over, as it's too much trouble to take the league deck apart, but here's what I'm thinking:
Yavimaya Elder -> Shefet Monitor. I discussed this earlier. I'm not sure that the ramp the Monitor offers will be worth it coming down a turn later than the Elder (and on the turn I'd want to play Yeva), but the advantages (uncounterable, less total mana, can be a giant body later in the game) seem to outweigh the disadvantages. I'll give it a chance and see how I like it.
Molder Slug -> Manglehorn. I haven't been that happy with the Slug. He's not enough of an impact when he hits the board to justify his mana cost, his power is too low to really be useful for fighting or dying for the Greater Good, and he doesn't really affect dedicated artifact decks like Breya who will always have extra artifacts to sac. The Manglehorn is much cheaper -- helping it to fight [/c]Sol Ring[/c]s -- and it the screws over opposing artifacts as long as it sticks around with a real disadvantage.
Gaea's Herald -> Magus of the Library. The Herald hasn't really been pulling her weight. Plenty of the spells I'm most worried about being countered are non-creatures anyway, plus extra card advantage will help me fight through counterspells. The Herald can also get in the way of people counterspelling other creatures like Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur that are obnoxious for me to deal with on my own. In league games, I've been loving the Magus and his combination of ramp and draw.
Momentous Fall -> Evolutionary Leap. The Leap has been money for me in every league game where I've hit it so far. It almost completely negates spot removal and board wipes by reestablishing my hand with gas. It can't draw non-creatures, of course, but it also can't land flood me. Meanwhile, I've been trending away from the single-use sorcery draw spells and towards more creature-cantrips and repeatable draw. On that note:
Rishkar's Expertise -> Protean Hulk. So, this got unbanned? I won't complain! I'm not sure how good it will be, but flashing out a Hulk in response to a boardwipe seems like a good game, plus there's enough sac outlets in the deck naturally to take advantage of him. No real combo, but plenty of value (for example, if I have a Seedborn Muse, I could sac him for an Eternal Witness+stuff to get Hulk back and then play him on the next turn and then...). I'm sure this is not the most broken use of the Protean Hulk, so I don't anticipate any complaints from my group.
Woodfall Primus -> Terastodon. Blowing up three non-creatures is just so backbreaking of an effect. The Primus may climb his way back in addition to the elephant, but for now I'm not sure I want to run both.
I would also like to get Vizier of the Menagerie in, but I'm not sure there's anything else I'd rather cut for it. Maybe it can play in Reap and Sow's place? I'm not sure that card has been worth the effort. I'll think about it.
Well, that's it for me. How are things looking on your end? Had a chance to get any games in?
You seem to be on the hunt for carddraw too. Something familiar in mono-green?
- With 7 druids in your decklist, Gilt-Leaf Archdruid is probably not quite good enough for the include. Are there other druids to add which may make the draw more favorable?
- Abzan Beastmaster might work if you have enough fat creatures on the field.
- Drumhunter may be a good card, plus he's a druid.
- I don't think I saw Garruk's Packleader in your list.
- With such a high creature count, Heartwood Storyteller could even be fairly one-sided.
- While a bit slower, Tireless Tracker may be a way to get some draw.
Perhaps some of these can assist with rounding out your card draw. Hope it helps.
Definitely play Patron of the Orochi. Seedborn Muse is your best card ever, so if Patron is even half of that, that's another chance at your best effect.
Also, unless I missed something in the masses of text above, I think you have a few too many ramp creatures. People are already going to look at the mono-green player and start thinking about ways to wrath the board, so losing your mana guys along with the rest of your team when that inevitably happens is just going to set you back even more. I'd much rather run effects like Cultivate and Rampant Growth than Krosan Restorer and Juniper Order Druid.
Alright, glad to hear some new voices! Thanks much for the suggestions!
Re: Gilt-Leaf Archdruid - This is a very powerful card, no doubt, but I don't think I have the druid mass to really pull it off. I've also found her second ability tends to cause unreasonable hate in other players, even if I don't have enough druids to pull it off. Granted, Yeva spends most of her time being the archenemy anyway, but if I'm playing cards that are going to get me targeted, I want to at least make sure they are also helping to win me the game.
Re: Abzan Beastmaster / Drumhunter - As sad as this is to admit for a mono-green deck, I'm not sure I have big enough creatures to really trigger this consistently. I've noticed in my games that 4/4 is usually as big as my creatures get until I'm ready to win the game. Selvala, Heart of the Wilds gets to stick around because of her mana generation, so the Drumhunter is an interesting suggestion. I'll put some more thought into it.
Re: Garruk's Packleader / Elemental Bond / Kavu Lair - This deck tends to durdle a bit, playing and replaying smaller creatures like Reclamation Sage and Elvish Visionary. That's why I don't value power-dependent draw too highly -- as you'll see above, Rishkar's Expertise is likely coming out of the deck, and I've already cut Soul's Majesty and Garruk, Primal Hunter for the same reason. Also, I have a bit of a bias against what we have come to call "do-nothing" non-creature permanents (obviously not Packhunter, but the other two). With Yeva, I always want to be keeping my mana open for responses (unless I have a Seedborn Muse, but at that point the game's probably already either won or lost). Cloudstone Curio and Panharmonicon have already been cut for this reason, and I think both those cards are probably stronger for the archetype than Elemental Bond. I do have a Titania, Protector of Argoth stax-control deck I'm working on that runs all three of these effects, which I think will be very strong with her ability.
Re: Heartwood Storyteller - My biggest complaint with this card is that it is symmetrical. Over time, assuming a 4 player game, I'll be losing card advantage to my own effect -- eg, one opponent plays a non-creature, triggering a draw from each other player, which causes my opponents to draw two cards to the one I'm drawing. If at all possible, I want to make sure that none of my opponents are drawing cards at all!
Re: Tireless Tracker - I like this suggestion a lot. He's on the list for Titania, which runs all four fetch lands, all the forest-panoramas, Terramorphic Expanse, and Evolving Wilds. I very well may give this guy a chance to try out for Yeva too, perhaps subbing in the fetch lands to increase his output. I'll wait until I've had a chance to test the Amonkhet changes, then give him a try. Thanks!
Re: Yavimaya Elder - He's on the fence, but still sort-of in the deck! I'm going to be testing Shefet Monitor in his deckslot, but the Elder is pretty hard to beat and I think he'll probably end up coming back.
Re: Masked Admirers - These were in the early drafts of the deck, but they just never seemed to really pull their weight. After some experience in a commander league with budget restrictions, I am considering adding more cantrip creatures into the deck, but these guys are in line behind Multani's Acolyte, Carven Caryatid, and Wall of Blossoms.
Re: Harmonize - I love Harmonize and use it in a bunch of decks, it's just sooooo sorcery speed. As I move away from things like Rishkar's Expertise, I'm not sure I want to backslide for another sorcery. Thanks for the reminder, though, I'll need to keep Harmonize on my radar!
Re: Patron of the Orochi - I had toyed with the idea of this card, but two things stopped me: one, it only untaps basic forests, not my "real" lands. two, it untaps ALL forests and green creatures, including any my opponents might have. So far, the deck functions well enough without Seedborn Muse that I don't feel the need to add a significantly worse alternative, and if she does find herself getting exiled a bit more I think that I'll probably add Riftsweeper instead. The card I wish I had a backup for is Temur Sabertooth -- my playgroup is starting to realize that he's the real lynchpin of this deck!
Also, unless I missed something in the masses of text above, I think you have a few too many ramp creatures. People are already going to look at the mono-green player and start thinking about ways to wrath the board, so losing your mana guys along with the rest of your team when that inevitably happens is just going to set you back even more. I'd much rather run effects like Cultivate and Rampant Growth than Krosan Restorer and Juniper Order Druid.
I'm working on a new OP for this thread that explains the philosophy of the deck a bit better, as well as reasons why I've chosen the ramp package I did.
The short explanation is that Yeva is excellent at responding to multiple wrath of god effects -- if you look a few posts up, I talk about a game where I survived two in the same turn and one on the next player's turn -- but in order to do so it needs a boat-load of mana. The strongest and most durable way to do that is with high-quality lands (hence the various land search effects; Crop Rotation, Tempt with Discovery, Reap and Sow). The land-untapping creatures were chosen for their ability to augment that plan while also providing solid early-game ramp. The other mana-producing creatures -- Priest of Titania, Selvala, Heart of the Wilds, Karametra's Acolyte - were chosen because of their cheap mana cost relative to the amount of mana they can produce.
In other words, this deck needs to be able to produce a lot of mana all at once, and if it can, it'll fight through almost any wrath effect (or TurboFrog its way through any aggro). If it can't, it'll probably lose. The mana base is therefore somewhat high on the risk/return spectrum. Like I said, I'm working on a writeup for this OP about this.
As for Cultivate and other low-risk/low-reward ramp specifically, I would prefer to run things like Wood Elves and Farhaven Elf - in fact, that was the original ramp package in this deck - as they can be more easily recurred and help win the game.
I really appreciate the thoughts and help! Tireless Tracker, again, is a super interesting suggestion and I'm looking forward to having a chance to test it out. Cheers!
I had a chance to play full-budget Yeva with the test cards last night against Godo, Bandit Warlord and Purphoros, God of the Forge. I didn't see most of them, but I did have a Protean Hulk and a Greater Good in my opening grip. They interacted in about as dumb of a fashion as you would imagine they would. I dropped Greater Good on T3 and the Hulk on T4 (Yeva had come out on T2 thanks to a Mana Crypt). Just before my T6, I dropped Kamahl, Fist of Krosa, sacked the Hulk to get a bunch of cheap creatures, and overran both of them on T6.
I did see Manglehorn in the cards I drew off the Hulk, but it didn't really matter by that point. If I had seen it earlier, it would have been nice against Godo's artifact ramp.
So, yeah, Hulk seems just as ridiculous as I thought he would be. I'm keeping him in because I do want Yeva to be as good of a deck as possible, but I might have to reduce how often I play her. I'm thinking I might warn the group beforehand to make sure they chose their decks with the best matchups. On a mildly related note, I also debuted my Titania, Protector of Argoth stax deck, which didn't make me any friends either. I'll have to get my Rishkar, Peema Renegade deck put together so everyone doesn't just punch me when I pull out mono-green.
The most exciting news, I think, is that a card has finally been spoiled from a new set that fits into Yeva's color identity. And what a card it is! - a creature version of Crucible of Worlds. Given the amount of land hate that my group has started running (and rightly so - nuking Gaea's Cradle keeps Yeva from going crazy quite as quickly) Ramunap Excavator might find its way into the deck. That might even make it worth running the various green fetch lands, which I had been shying away from. And then it starts to lead to questions about Strip Mine - a bridge that I'll have to cross when I come to it.
The good news is that I've had a lot of chances to play test Yeva's main list about two dozen times, in both multiplayer and 1v1, since my last post. Vizier of the Menagerie is currently occupying Memory Jar's place, although I haven't actually drawn it in a live game yet. Seems like a pretty strict upgrade. I'm on a bit of a kick right now replacing non-creatures with creatures and pruning the overall number of artifacts.
I played three games with Yeva this week. The first was a T5 walloping where Seedborn Muse came out to play T3 with draw and tutor backup. The other two decks never had a chance to get going, so I'm not sure it counts as a great test. The other two games were dueling against a friend's new Wort, the Raidmother deck. Poor Wort didn't get a chance to come out and play as I got lucky and pulled a Willow Satyr in both matchups. The first game ended with a flashed out Temur Sabertooth letting me dodge an Earthquake and then push through lethal damage. The second game was a nailbiter, as he was able to resolve a Boundless Realms after a slow start on both sides. I tried to counter with Tempt with Discovery, but he fetched out a Strip Mine that nuked the Cradle and then had a Mwonvuli Acid-Moss for the Nykthos. That left me with seven forests, Yeva, a couple other creatures, and a flipped Duskwatch Recruiter (he must have flipped back and forth half a dozen times that game). On his first turn with big mana, he cast Terastodon to turn three of my forests into elephants. I floated the mana in response, then cast Regal Behemoth (costing 5 mana because of the Recruiter). I flashed in a Fierce Empath with the remaining mana, fetching up a Craterhoof Behemoth. On my turn I cast the Hoof with my last four lands and was able to sneak out the victory.
I also finally broke down and got a Magic Online account. My only promise was that I wouldn't use real money for virtual cards, so I put together a bizarre budget version of Yeva using the tickets they give you for starting an account and free credit from the trading bots. I don't pretend to understand the online market - where Seedborn Muse is worth pennies and Bane of Progress is $20+ - but the deck has been performing alright so far. I mostly duel because the idea of grinding through a multiplayer game using that system seems a bit daunting and/or boring. Yeva's not really a duel deck and I've gotten blown out more than a few times, but also sneaked out some good victories. People don't seem to read her closely, so I can't even count how many creatures she's killed because they attacked into my "open" board and then SURPRISE 4/4!!!!
Anyway, cards that aren't pulling their weight: Memory Jar: Too clunky and artifact-y. I hope I get to see Vizier eventually so I know if it's a good switch. Tooth and Nail: I think this might be another opportunity for me to say "You were right, Squirrely, I should have listened to you." It's soooo sorcery speed, and nine mana is a ton for the real effect. I think that I might replace this with Woodland Bellower, but I'm not ready to pull the trigger yet. Command Beacon: I might keep this around until I test the Crucible of Worlds guy, but I've never really needed this land in Yeva. Reliquary Tower: Just hasn't done enough to justify making colorless mana yet. It's nice not to pitch big hands, but it's not like I don't have Genesis to clean up the mess. Reap and Sow: The land search is nice, but I think I might test out Bad Primetime in this slot again soon.
And cards that I (still) love: Timbermare: I just can't stress how awesome this card is. It's gotten me several wins Online, either by creating an "infinite" fog loop with Temur Sabertooth or by tapping down blockers. Krosan Tusker: I wasn't expecting to like this so much. I thought I'd come back to Yavimaya Elder in no time. But the cycle is just so easy, and it's something that I can actually do on T3 and have it affect things without screwing up my T4 plays, unlike Elder. Joraga Treespeaker: This has done some serious lifting in my online list, although I don't know how much of that is due to the fact that Sol Ring is banned on MTGO. The highlight was playing against a R/G land destruction list. He'd been going after my land base pretty hard. I'd gotten a Treespeaker and a Wirewood Symbiote into play. Then I topdecked a Wood Elves. After several turns of him destroying one of my lands and me dropping two into play, I hit a Zendikar Resurgent. Strangely, he lost connection just as it resolved... Maybe I'll test this out in place of Sakura-Tribe Elder...or Sol Ring... Willow Satyr: This card costs two cents online! TWO CENTS! Nuts. It completely neutralized Wort, the Raidmother in the two games I played recently, has locked Grenzo, Dungeon Warden out of the game, and caused all sorts of shenanigans and rage quits online. I give this card five trolls out of four.
Anyway, hope the last month has been just as Yeva-riffic for everyone else!
Sorry about the delayed response! Been a busy week for me. I hope your games went well -- I've got a game night planned tonight, with possibly 6 players (o.O). Yeva's never been in that big of a game, so it might be an interesting stress test.
Chord of Calling is an amazing spell and I recommend it heartily. I've also been having pretty good luck with Vizier of the Menagerie (which I'm now almost certain will end up replacing Memory Jar for reals). I also like the Wildebeests route, as it multiplies the effectiveness of ETB draw like Wall of Blossoms. Still, playing the toned-down internet version, I'm starting to think that inconsistency might not be the worst thing in the world. I might develop a 75% Yeva build based on those principles to play in paper on occasion.
That having been said, the full spoilers for Hour of Devastation dropped today. There's a lot to be excited about. My initial thoughts for Yeva:
1) Hope Tender: So, yeah, I'm most excited about an uncommon mana dork. This is the first 2cc "untap any land" creature since Voyaging Satyr, which is an absolute all-star in the current build. Having to pay a mana to activate his abilities is a bit obnoxious, but early game he can exert to still power out the T3 Yeva. Late game, paying one mana to untap a Nykthos or Cradle is so inconsequential it might as well not even exist. And with Seedborn Muse out, he can exert himself every go around. I think this guy goes straight into the deck, no testing required, over Juniper Order Druid.
2) Ramunap Excavator: I feel like just the other day, I was typing something along the lines of "Yeah, that land would really only be good with Crucible of Worlds, but there's no way to tutor for that in green.." If Wizards is secretly scanning my brain for card ideas, then I would love a creature version of Greater Good and a creature version of Green Sun's Zenith, k??? Anyway, access to this sort of effect on a stick could possibly change a lot of the ways that Yeva works. If I'm already going to be the archenemy, Strip Mine could come in. The Fetches would actually be worth playing. Command Beacon's slot would become much more guaranteed. There's a couple other sac-for-effect lands I'd want to look at. I'm not sure if these changes will improve Yeva or not, but I will probably at least test them once the set drops.
3) Hour of Promise: Speaking of lands, a 5 mana sorcery that fetches out any two of them. I'll probably test this out in Reap and Sow's slot, but I don't like how it's a sorcery or how the lands come into play tapped. That slot is much more likely to end up being Ulvenwald Hydra when all is said and done.
4) Endless Sands: I think I might like this land over Miren, the Moaning Well. The lands have two purposes: protecting my stuff from removal, and letting Willow Satyr eat opposing legends. It's one less mana to activate the Desert, which then stores my creatures in exile or tucks away legends where only commanders can escape. If I have to pop it to get my own creatures back, of course, then my opponents also get their creatures back, but that's not the end of the world. No life is gained with the Desert, and if someone removes it then my creatures are gone forever. I'll test this card out and see how it does.
5) Uncage the Menagerie: And now we're getting into cards that I'm not eager to immediately test. This is a ton of value on a single card, but the values are awkward for my deck. For instance, there are only three 5-drops in the entire deck (Muse, Genesis, and Acidic Slime), meaning that Tooth and Nail would be more effective as a 7-mana tutor. Four four drops seems like the best gas (Karametra's Acolyte, Temur Sabertooth, Timbermare, Willow Satyr, although three three drops isn't terrible (Shaman of Forgotten Ways, Nissa, Vastwood Seer, Eternal Witness) and two two drops is ok (Priest of Titania, Duskwatch Recruiter). I'm going to have to give this card some thought, as well as decide which deck slot it might be tested in if at all.
6) Scavenger Grounds: Might be nice to have graveyard hate on a land. Shame this exiles itself in order to do it, so it doesn't play nice with Ramunap Excavator. On the other hand, turning Crop Rotation into screwing over GY decks seems cool. I'll think about it.
7) Quarry Beetle: With Yeva, though, this could save the Grounds. Sac the desert, put the effect on the stack, flash this guy in to bring the desert back, let the exile resolve. Beyond that, it might be nice to have land revival on a stick. Five mana is a bit steep, but 4/5 body isn't terrible, and he's easily repeatable. Shame he can only nab stuff from my graveyard. I'll keep an eye on this card depending on how land-focused of a turn the deck takes.
8) Majestic Myriarch: Mentioning this solely because it is our green mythic creature. It is a Big Dumb Green Creature in the truest sense of the word; 0/10 would not play.
That having been said, the full spoilers for Hour of Devastation dropped today. There's a lot to be excited about. My initial thoughts for Yeva:
1) Hope Tender: So, yeah, I'm most excited about an uncommon mana dork. This is the first 2cc "untap any land" creature since Voyaging Satyr, which is an absolute all-star in the current build. Having to pay a mana to activate his abilities is a bit obnoxious, but early game he can exert to still power out the T3 Yeva. Late game, paying one mana to untap a Nykthos or Cradle is so inconsequential it might as well not even exist. And with Seedborn Muse out, he can exert himself every go around. I think this guy goes straight into the deck, no testing required, over Juniper Order Druid.
I might be late to the party, and havn't read through all the posts, so I don't know if Magus of the Candelabra have been mentioned, but he seems like a stronger card then Hope Tender, even though he can't ramp the same (without a land that produces more then 1).
This card is what got me most excited (right after Ramunap Excavator). I imagine it would be best spend casting with x=3/4, since the big cmc creatures slot is less crowded. But getting 3 or 4 good utility creatures seems like a really good deal to me! Card advantage in monogreen is nothing to scruff at.
I'm already setup and have approx a million mana. But my opponents don't concede because each one of them has a wrath type card in hand, and what can green do about that?
First opponent plays a wrath. In response I tutor for Kamahl, Fist of Krosa and flash it into play (opponents scratch heads at first), then proceed to make all their lands 1/1 creatures. I then return most of my creatures to hand with Temur Sabertooth..and have enough mana to recast Seedborn Muse once the wrath effect resolves. Then I just play out everything again in next opponents turn...oh and everybody concedes, fair enough
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
I agree that it's probably best not to leave Timbermare as the only fog effect in the deck. I tested a few hands without Spore Frog and I didn't like missing its versatility. I think the 'mare is probably the better option for a soft-lock of the table once the board position has been established and that the Frog is better as an emergency button in earlier turns. I think, despite my thinking about cutting out redundant effects, that the two cards do fill different roles and both have a place in the deck.
Navyat87, I agree that Timbermare-locking someone is a great way to earn their aggro. For me, at least, in my meta, putting Yeva, Nature's Herald into the command zone tends to earn the anger of the table. ^.^ Squirrely has a lot more experience than me at playing unknown tables and manipulating the metagame. He had a great game report a few posts up that exemplifies how this can be accomplished through selective casting.
Re: Kamahl, Fist of Krosa -- that is one of my favorite tricks with this deck. I haven't been able to pull it off yet, but the SURPRISE KAMAHL that Yeva enables should be a classic if I ever get the chance. With my testing, however, I've found that it seems to be better in the mid-ranges of mana (~8-16) to look for Temur Sabertooth and save key permanents. At 20+ mana, Kamahl can be backbreaking for an entire table. He's also a great rattlesnake to drop at the end of someone's turn and then untap with all my mana, to keep the wraths away. Sometimes I feel it's almost better to tempt out the wrath, though, knowing I can recover well and that it will slow down someone else who might be doing crazier things than I am.
Also, flashing out a Genesis in response to a wrath on the earlier turns can create more than a few groans.
OUT: Panharmonicon, Shamanic Revelation, Boundless Realms
The Cloudstone Curio is holding on by a thread right now and could easily be cut for more draw, like Soul's Majesty or something.
I (hopefully!) have a game scheduled this Friday, and will try to get a report up based on that.
Speaking of which, that sounds like another awesome game, Squirrely! My thoughts on your thoughts:
Heh, that Genesis pitch into the yard must have caused some eye-rolling. I also can't believe that I wanted to cut Karametra's Acolyte at one point. You're right and that card is a total beast. I must have gone temporarily insane to not see it.
This is exactly the use case I imagine for Loaming Shaman most of the time. That card can be so backbreaking for graveyard-based strategies. Well done!
RE: Priest of Titania. I do totally recommend her. The ceiling is a lot lower, but she plays nicely with Yeva in the very least. I've had more than a few T2 Priest -> T3 Yeva -> T4 6+ mana sequences. She is also great with Joraga Treespeaker (T1 Speaker -> T2 Level Up + Priest -> T3 Yeva + 3-4 mana). Of course, she is very splashy in the early game, so I understand if you'd rather stay to a quieter card.
RE: Panharmonicon. Boo. I really wanted to make this card work, but you and darrenhabib are right. I've cut it from my deck too.
RE: Lifeblood Hydra. This card sounds like it has been working out for you, eh? I'll have to put it on my radar. My initial hesitation was that I didn't have enough sac outlet on board, but as I add more for Willow Satyr (love that card!) maybe the Hydra will start to make sense.
RE: Acidic Slime. Sadly, the slime only hits enchantments, artifacts, and lands. Terastodon or Woodfall Primus will go the distance against planeswalkers, though!
RE: Regal Behemoth. I can't wait to try this card out in place of Zendikar Resurgent and Boundless Realms. Also, how has Duskwatch Recruiter working out for you? I've had one sitting in my binder since Shadows with this deck in mind, but I've never thought I'd have enough free mana to make it matter.
I was able to play two games tonight, one a victory and one a loss.
The first game of the night was against Grenzo, Dungeon Warden shenanigans, Gahiji, Honored One group hug, and Purphoros, God of the Forge token rush. I got off to a slow start and pulled pretty much all my "situational tutor targets" with no real card draw or defense. After Purphoros had burned me down into range, a Gray Merchant of Asphodel from Grenzo finished me off. Gahiji helped the others by knocking off most of my creatures as I played them, not that they would have made any real difference with no card draw in sight. I did end up killing Purphoros the turn before I died, so at least that's something. A Cloudstone Curio was in my opening grip and was never worthwhile to be played.
The second game was much longer and grindier, just what Yeva likes! We lost one player, so I was up against Bruna, Light of Alabaster and Riku of Two Reflections. Riku and I spent the first few turns mana accelerating, with me dropping an early Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx and a Sylvan Library. We ate a T5 wrath from Bruna, to which I was able to flash out a Genesis and recover the Seedborn Muse I had Summoner's Pacted for. Another wrath followed on the next turn, with Genesis again fishing out the Muse (and Yeva's commander tax jumping).
After the second wrath, Bruna finally made an appearance. I casted a Genesis Wave for x=12 on my next turn, flipping mostly lands and instant/sorceries (bad luck -- lost Tooth and Nail, Rishkar's Expertise, Momentous Fall, and Green Sun's Zenith that way) but I did hit a Regal Behemoth and a Loaming Shaman, which shuffled the ~10 auras Bruna had dumped into the graveyard. After that, Bruna attacked me. I had to give up the monarch token but I was able to slam down a Bane of Progress to take care of all her goodies. Riku then doubled a land destruction spell and hit Nykthos and Winding Canyons, but by then I had enough mana from normal lands that it wasn't crippling. The next round, I hit Bruna with a Beast Within before she could attack, played Kamahl, Fist of Krosa on Riku's turn, and stampeded over his defenses for lethal on mine.
Bruna then tried a desperate Soulscour, but forgot that Woodfall Primus had persist. I was also able to save up enough mana to cast Yeva one last time (for 12cc!) after it resolved and put Bruna on a 3-turn clock. He wasn't able to find answers in time and politely conceded.
Thoughts from the games:
--OK, I tried to give Cloudstone Curio one last chance at it let me down. I spent the whole game wishing it was some form of card draw instead. I will probably replace it with Lifeblood Hydra. Everything the Curio does, Temur Sabertooth does almost as well, and I can tutor for/play the cat at instant speed.
--Genesis is awesome. We all already knew this, but I just want to make sure to rub it in.
--Getting off to a fast start in card advantage is huge. The Sylvan Library is worth its weight in gold. I'll have to be careful to mulligan answer-heavy, set-up light hands like the first game had.
--Seriously, what was up with all those non-permanent cards stacked up for the Genesis Wave? Instants and Sorceries are only 13% of the deck, but were 25% of cards flipped by the wave. I suppose that's not too far off predicted, but it still was all the feel-bads.
--Group Hug is seriously not good news for this deck. I want to be slowing down opposing game plans, not having someone else accelerate them. I'm not sure how to plan for a strategy that doesn't care if it wins or not.
--I'll probably have a few tweaks, but nothing too major. Winding Canyons, despite attracting land destruction, was not really relevant. Yeva died a bunch, but I had the mana to recast her every time. I might replace it with Deserted Temple.
--Duskwatch Recruiter was an all-star. He died in a wrath, but I was able to Genesis him back. Filtering through cards helps a ton, and he's most of the reason I was able to get the pieces I needed in the second game.
You're right, of course. I think I might just need to be more aggressive with my mulligans. I took the first offered hand, which had four lands (three forest and a Nykthos), a Loaming Shaman, a Molder Slug, and a Cloudstone Curio. I should have realized that was a go-nowhere hand and tried again. I reasoned that at least I could play that hand, even if it was slow. I didn't anticipate grouphug giving everyone 6 extra lands on like T4, which set Purphoros (who was sitting to my right) up for ~20 damage on his turn. Still, you're right that one loss in my last ~5 games with this deck isn't a reason to panic, I don't think.
RE: Veilstone Amulet. I've been a bit dismissive of shroud as a strategy for this deck, and I am also moving away from artifacts, so you won't hear any opposition from me to cutting it. I kept thinking that Cloudstone Curio would be a great way to answer removal, but it's just too clunky to get into play and I usually don't have the density of creature plays that would make it worthwhile unless I'm already winning anyway. Both would be safe cuts.
I will lead off with my default stance, which is that adding life gain for the sake of life gain is usually a losing strategy. I like life gain that would happen if I were just pursuing my default strategy (cards like Loxodon Warhammer or Lifeblood Hydra) and tend to avoid cards that exist only to gain life.
That having been said, I'm wondering if an option for life gain in this deck might not be warranted. I like some of the options you listed -- Essence Warden, Wellwisher (one of my favorite cards from when I started playing) -- while others -- Thragtusk don't speak to me quite as much.
Of the two elves, I think I would prefer Wellwisher to Essence Warden as it is less dependent on what your opponents are doing and has nice synergy with Seedborn Muse. If I were generating more tokens throughout the game (like with your Hornet Queen or Avenger of Zendikar) I think the Warden might be more attractive. I have a few cards which haven't been pulling their weight (Greenwarden of Murasa and Cloudstone Curio) and I think I might test Wellwisher in one slot and Lifeblood Hydra in the other.
For the cards I'm not crazy about, I've never really been a Thragtusk fan. I sort of think of it as penny-ante in a format that's all about hitting the big bets. Pelakka Wurm has the same trouble - it's too expensive to be worth forming a recursive loop with Temur Sabertooth, but not enough impact to be a one-off.
Now that I'm reading Thragtusk a bit more carefully, I see that it is a "leave battlefield" condition for creating a beast, not a "is put into a graveyard." That does help its case a bit in my mind, as I had been imagining it the other way. Let's see, with the Sabertooth out, that would be seven mana for five life and a 3/3 beast. I might have to put a bit more thought into that. On the other hand, once I've set myself up with a Sabertooth and 7+ mana, there's probably more impactful things that I could be doing.
I still prefer the two cheap elves for their ease of tutoring and larger long-term impact, I think. But I do have a bit more respect for Thragtusk than I did when I started typing this section.
I think you'll be happy with the Priest. I do love both the two-land sorceries, but I don't think they're a perfect fit for this deck.
I don't know that I love the Viper. I've played with it some in other decks, and I've found that (since it lacks real evasion), it spends most of its time running into 3/x random tokens, indestructible or recursive creatures, pillow forts, and just generally not earning its deckslot back. I think that a cantrip creature would be better in this slot -- I know that I'm in the process of cutting Masked Admirers right now, but I do think that they're better than Ohran Viper.
The Greenwarden of Murasa has found his way onto my cut list as well. I'm not sure for what quite yet -- I always want more draw, of course!
I generally support cutting "Big Dumb Green Creatures", if the Baloths will pardon the phrase. I think you will be happy with the Fall; it's never let me down (except for that time it got flipped by the Genesis Wave. Grumble).
This is a good add, I think, since you're running lower on the tutors than I am. Come to think of it, actually, Summoner's Pact was the only tutor I saw in either game. Maybe I need to up my density of those...
As you say, I don't think there's anything further to discuss here. ^.^
Beast Within is the best, and I recommend that every deck have ten of them. Hehe. I still can't believe that I read it for so long as "target noncreature permanent". I went into length about my thoughts of Thragtusk above, and I'm looking forward to hearing how he performs for you.
Nice! I'm thinking about cutting my Sol Ring like you did in favor of Joraga Treespeaker. I'm just a little hesitant to take off the "EDH training wheels"!
How has Lifecrafter's Bestiary performed for you? I usually am running close enough to my mana supply that I don't know about affording an extra G for every creature, and the scry doesn't seem like it would be worth the three mana, sorcery-speed investment.
It's certainly on my watchlist, and did not perform at all well the other day, but it's not in immediate danger of being cut. I do like it later in the game, hopefully after I've wiped all the artifacts once, to help keep the board clear going forward. Still, unless it becomes more relevant in future games, I could see it going.
I think this is a good opportunity to work together. I was more excited about Wellwisher of the two elves, so I will test that one and you can test out Essence Warden. I know that the Warden, at least in my group, does tend to draw a bit of hate while it usually wants to be run out as early as possible. I'm hoping to be able to sit on Wellwisher until I absolutely need it or I can protect it.
Adding life gain to the deck does introduce the possibility of Tornado, which is probably the best all-around green destruction after Beast Within. It does cost a ton of mana and life, but with a Seedborn Muse and a lifegain engine out, it might be worthwhile. I'll put in on my radar for now. It might be a little win-more, only good after I have already seized control of the game.
Let me know how it works for you. I do want as much card draw as possible, so I'd love for it to work -- that just hasn't been my experience.
I'm not quite ready yet to pull the trigger on cutting either card, but I do think that Sol Ring would be the first to go of the two. I haven't yet had a chance to really play with Mana Crypt, but at least in testing the card has been bananas. Not needing to tap a land to play it opens the way for some really unexpected plays, like a T2 Yeva following a T1 Forest-go. Every time I've drawn it, something crazy has happened. Sol Ring, on the other hand, is sol ring. Unexciting, only explosive on a delayed basis (since I have to give up my green mana to get colorless). I don't yet see either one going, although I would love to find some room for Joraga Treespeaker.
That pretty much mirrors my thinking on the card. I will probably pick up a copy since they're under a dollar now, just in case, but continue to lean on the larger card draw cards.
So, time to discuss my changes for the deck. Masked Admirers is already gone, replaced by Duskwatch Recruiter and I will update the OP to reflect this. Also being cut are Cloudstone Curio and Wave of Vitriol. I've discussed the Curio's performance (or lack thereof) at length and I think it's time to pull the trigger. The Wave, I found, was too much mana for what I wanted it to do. I still have outs to Theros gods (Brutalizer Exarch if they're not creatures, Willow Satyr if they're not) and I found too often that the non-basic land clause hurt me more than my opponents. Troublesome non-basics can be dealt with using any number of other removal spells in the deck. Also, Winding Canyons is getting a cut as I haven't once found that I need it as a backup to Yeva. It can come back if the Tuck rule changes.
They'll be replaced by Wellwisher (as we discussed above), Natural Order (again upping the number of tutors in the deck), and Deserted Temple, which I have just acquired.
Also, while I'm not altering the makeup of the deck for this yet, I am also tinkering with the ramp package and trying to move away from small-potato ramp to much larger game. My mana production gets humming best when Gaea's Cradle or Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx is online, so I'm looking to increase the consistency of finding the "big lands" as well as untappers for them. This will replace the "search for a basic land" creatures with land untapping creatures, which should (unless they get destroyed) provide the same T4 5 mana while having the possibility for much, much larger plays later in the game. I'm also looking to trim some of the fat of other areas to increase the amount of ramp.
In summary, I'm looking to replace Greenwarden of Murasa, Exploration, Farhaven Elf, Wood Elves, and Yavimaya Dryad with Sylvan Scrying, Reap and Sow, Krosan Restorer, Voyaging Satyr, and Juniper Order Druid (with [c]Ley Druid on deck if I find a deckslot). I'll be testing this shell on tapped out to see if it works before committing to the deck changes.
After watching and thinking about my friend's Patron of the Orochi deck, how about him as a backup to Seedborn Muse?
PRO -
Can be fetched by Fierce Empath
Doubles basic mana on my turn for big card drawing sorceries
Is not named 'Seedborn Muse'
CON -
Costs ten billion mana (plus or minus a few dozen)
Is a symmetrical effect
Only affects BASIC lands, doesn't work with 'quality land' ramp package
Sakura-Tribe Elder is the only snake to offer (major flavor fail)
So far, I haven't really needed a "backup to Seedborn Muse plan" but I do like him being able to be fetched by the Empath. There's been a lot of test hands where he was my only tutor available, or the only one I could recur with the Sabertooth/Symbiote bounce package. I don't have a propsed cut, I'm mostly just throwing him out there so I remember he's on the table.
I'm also thinking about switching Garruks, from Garruk, Primal Hunter to Garruk, Caller of Beasts. Evaluation:
PRO Beastman
Works better after a wrath (doesn't rely on any other permanent for card advantage)
All modes are relevant (+1 card advantage, -3 mana acceleration, ultimate is bonkers)
Since his +1 is the card advantage mode, he'll stick around unless the table wants him dead
Has an easier color requirement (but less devotion)
PRO Hunter
Since Yeva exists and stuff, he'll almost always be 4 guaranteed draw. Beastman will hit only an average of 2 creatures (~40% of the deck) AND he has to reveal them
It is actual real draw and stuff, which can hit spells, enchantments, and lands. SECRET enchantments, spells, and lands
Is one mana cheaper, which can be a huge deal (with more devotion/harder color requirement)
But his +1 and ultimate modes are basically useless. He's more a sorcery than a planeswalker
Right now, I think I'm leaning towards Caller of Beasts for my deck. Also, I did acquire a Lifecrafter's Beastiary and I plan to test it out.
EDIT: Forgot to mention, and it's probably a minor point, but I swapped Creeping Corrosion and Seeds of Innocence. I think the one mana discount is worth some piddly life gain.
I still like Garruk, Caller of Beasts better. You're right that the ultimate doesn't really matter in either case, but I do prefer the second ability on Garruk. It's not useful 100% of the time, but I can foresee a game where I'm able to hit 6 mana but want to be able to dump something else out on the same turn as him. The +1 ability isn't as money-guaranteed of draw, but it does force the opponent to expend resources to deal with him, rather than him just offing himself without their help. And I don't think drawing (probably) four cards is that much better than drawing (probably) two cards when you're talking about the difference between a planeswalker and a sorcery. I'll test the Caller of Beasts and let you know what I find.
Speaking of which, I did get to play a game today, but I don't know if it's going to go into the annals of "effective tests" of Yeva. The game started slowly, with three forests and a Shaman of Forgotten Ways being my first three turns. On T4, though, things got nutty.
First, I was playing against Venser, Shaper Savant, Kozilek, the Great Distortion and Sidisi, Undead Vizier. Venser was probably the biggest threat of the three, but luckily he didn't seem to draw into much control (or at least didn't play it if he did). Also, with the "untap/quality lands" package I was running, I replaced at the last minute Sylvan Scrying with Tempt with Discovery.
SO, T4 I dropped a Gaea's Cradle I had drawn and cast the Temptation, only for all three opponents to take me up on it. Kozilek fetched the third piece of Urzatron he was assembling and Sidisi grabbed a Cabal Coffers; I'm not sure what Venser took. I boggled a bit, then added Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx, Deserted Temple, Yavimaya Hollow, and High Market (I had a Willow Satyr in hand) to the board and passed turn. My plan was to drop Yeva and go to town starting on Sidisi (to my right's) end phase, but then he dropped a Archfiend of Depravity. I didn't have a Beast Within in hand, so I had to do things the hard way.
On my T5, I Tooth and Nail entwined for Seedborn Muse and Polukranos, World Eater and let the Shaman of Forgotten Ways die. On Venser's turn (to my left), I hit Monsterous for 11 and killed the Archfiend. I then added Yeva on Kozilek's turn and a Karametra's Acolyte at the end of Sidisi's turn. Since Venser had tapped out for something or the other, on my turn, I was able to Genesis Wave for x=21. It slammed in a variety of goodstuff, some lands, and lots of draw. It also flipped a Craterhoof Behemoth (exciting!) and a Timbermare (boo!). I smacked Kozilek for 14 with the Timbermare, selected my best seven (Eternal Witness being the most important keep and Genesis the most important discard) and passed turn.
Venser kept all his mana open. Kozilek played All is Dust. In response to the wipe, I generated something on the order of 90 mana (that Tempting offer was ridiculous) and let it resolve, playing Yeva from the command zone and then using Eternal Witness to get and play the Muse, dropping a Primordial Sage I'd had in hand and a few random creatures, with a board of seven or eight by the time all was said and done. I planned to use Genesis to return the Behemoth to hand on my turn and win, but Venser then cast Engulf the Shore at the end of Kozilek's turn, bouncing my entire hand.
Sidisi tutored for something on his turn, then I played the Muse and three or four other creatures on my turn, plus a Survival of the Fittest. Venser and Kozilek had no answers, and Sidisi put a board wipe of some sort on the board. I used Survival to tutor for Temur Sabertooth and Kamahl, Fist of Krosa, generated ~40 green mana (again, that land combination was insane) and everyone scooped.
It was a brutal, crushing example of why to never ever take a Tempting Offer, so I don't feel like Yeva got properly put through her paces. I did like how well the deck responded to Wraths, needing two board clears in a turn to seriously affect its position (and, even if the second wrath had been destroy, I still would have had Genesis to begin rebuilding again). On the other hand, I might have accidentally taught my group that they need to be running more land destruction.
I did sign up for a commander league in the store we visited today (doing Modern Masters draft and then hanging out afterwards). The League is going to use a ~$70 cap, so I won't be able to play this incarnation of Yeva or anything like it. I'm debating between taking one of my other decks, building something new, or trying to make a budget Yeva build. If I do, I'll post the specs on here to see what everyone thinks.
Right, I'm so tired now that I had to google the oracle text to remember what the name of Survival of the Fittest was. I'm off to bed!
* - Side note: I fell in love with Duskwatch Recruiter. That card is bonkers. Krallenhorde Howler is ok too, I guess.
There's something to be said for redundancy, of course, and it's nice to spend one deckslot instead of two. I do have a plan for some live testing to see if I can resolve this little mental impasse I have about the card, which I'll discuss later in this post.
Heartwood Storyteller seems like it could be great in your deck. I just worry that it will give you opponents (other than the one casting the non-creature spell) too much card advantage; after all, in a four-person game, two opponents are drawing one card for the one that you draw. Since you have an easier time blanking the combat phase than I do, maybe that won't be a huge deal. I probably run too many non-creature spells to be worth trying in my deck.
I will make one last plea for Wirewood Symbiote, which is to remember that the creature it untaps doesn't have to be an elf. It can untap, say, Karametra's Acolyte for instance. In addition to saving against wipes, the Symbiote multiplies the effect of Elvish Visionary while also untapping big mana generation, which is why I'm solidly in love with it. I do think my deck has a larger elf sub-theme than yours does, though, so I can see your hesitation.
Right, so on to my plan to test Magus of the Library. I mentioned that I signed up for a Commander league which will likely have a "salary cap" of $70 (give or take) for deck construction. I decided this might be a good opportunity to test some of the cheaper "other options" that we've discussed in this thread and I put together the following list:
1x Yeva, Nature's Herald
Creatures
1x Acidic Slime
1x Arbor Colossus
1x Arbor Elf
1x Bane of Progress
1x Brutalizer Exarch
1x Caustic Caterpillar
1x Deadwood Treefolk
1x Duskwatch Recruiter
1x Elvish Visionary
1x Fierce Empath
1x Gaea's Herald
1x Greenwarden of Murasa
1x Hornet Nest
1x Hornet Queen
1x Invasive Species
1x Joraga Treespeaker
1x Kamahl, Fist of Krosa
1x Karametra's Acolyte
1x Llanowar Elves
1x Loaming Shaman
1x Magus of the Library
1x Masked Admirers
1x Molder Slug
1x Multani's Acolyte
1x Ohran Viper
1x Polukranos, World Eater
1x Primordial Sage
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Regal Behemoth
1x Regal Force
1x Sakura-Tribe Elder
1x Seedborn Muse
1x Somberwald Sage
1x Soul of the Harvest
1x Spore Frog
1x Temur Sabertooth
1x Terastodon
1x Timbermare
1x Ulvenwald Tracker
1x Unyaro Bees
1x Viridian Zealot
1x Wellwisher
1x Wirewood Symbiote
1x Wolfbriar Elemental
1x Wren's Run Packmaster
1x Yavimaya Elder
1x Yisan, the Wanderer Bard
1x Creeping Corrosion
1x Enshrined Memories
1x Ezuri's Predation
1x Rishkar's Expertise
1x Seeds of Innocence
1x Shamanic Revelation
1x Wave of Vitriol
Instant
1x Reincarnation
Enchantments
1x Burgeoning
1x Compost
1x Evolutionary Leap
1x Zendikar Resurgent
Lands
1x Blighted Woodland
39x Forest
As of right now, this deck is ~$67 on TCG mid. I left myself a couple dollars wiggle room. I might look into adding Pathbreaker Ibex (~$3) as I'm not sure if Kamahl, Fist of Krosa can handle things on his own. I'm also debating Rites of Flourishing but worried it would give too much symmetrical help to my opponents. I bumped up the land count a tad to compensate for losing Mana Crypt and Sol Ring. Seedborn Muse stayed, of course, but if I really had to cut the fat again I guess she could turn into Patron of the Orochi (then I could add Time of Need as a dirt cheap tutor! -- actually, I might do that anyway and just rely of Kamahl to do the job himself...hmm). There's also Lifespinner, but there aren't enough spirits to really make that reliable.
I'm getting off track. You'll notice quite a few of your own suggestions in there -- Magus of the Library, Hornet Nest (I still love that concept), Reincarnation (I couldn't figure out a way to keep Eternal Witness). I'm also hopeful for Evolutionary Leap, one of my favorite recently printed card advantage engines, although not one I love for normal-Yeva.
I'm actually sort of curious to see how the deck performs. So far, in goldfishing it has either gone bananas by ~T6 or completely putzed out. I'd love to hear what you think!
On that note, you're right about the early sweepers. Creeping Corrosion and Seeds of Innocence got the immediate cut, along with Burgeoning, and were replaced by my old friends Wood Elves, Farhaven Elf, and Yavimaya Dryad. I kept Wave of Vitriol, figuring that by the time I hit enough mana people would be doing degenerate enough things to warrant a huge reset. Bane of Progress got to stay because he's a creature. I also love the suggestion of returning to the 3cc land acceleration. To be honest, I sort of forgot about them after I swapped to the land-untappers in the main deck. But without Nykthos or Cradle, those bums won't do anything here.
Oh, I got the email with the league rules. $60 salary cap, so I had to shave a bit more fat. Luckily I saved a few dollars by switching the Muse, Kamahl, Wellwisher, and Fierce Empath to their Onslaught-block printings. Those are the ones I own/use anyway, and tappedout had been using the (higher) prices of their limited run reprintings. Also, I am allowed to swap seven singles per week, providing I remain below the salary cap. I'm writing back to ask whether or not basic lands count towards the cap, as I will save almost six dollars (or roughly one Eternal Witness...) if I don't have to figure them in at ~$0.15 each.
I also swapped Arbor Elf, Llanowar Elves, and Molder Slug for Wall of Blossoms, Carven Caraytid, and Stampeding Wildebeests. I like the suggestion of a bounce subtheme, which should provide extra card advantage. This deck can't run the tutors of the main deck, so I'm going to have to dig the old fashioned way. Good thinking there! Now if I can just remember that the Beests are a 5/4 trampler and I'm allowed to swing them at people...I have another deck where their main job is to recur Eternal Witness and they'll sit around for turns on end facing a clear board because I forget that they do more than bounce my own creatures. Also, Pathbreaker Ibex came in for Somberwald Sage. That was mostly a budget question to bring in the Goat's big salary.
On flyer defense, I'm hoping that the Arbor Colossus and the Hornet Queen will be enough backup to Spore Frog (who lost his best recursion engine) and Timbermare. I do like fog effects, but I'm trying to keep the number of non-creatures to a minimum (for Enshrined Memories and Duskwatch Recruiter, who are going to have to do most of the heavy lifting). Moment's Peace is my favorite of the maybe-I-can-afford it options, but I'll keep it on the bench for now.
Thanks a lot for the great suggestions! I think you made this deck almost 100% better. I feel a lot better with the extra cantrippers and the land acceleration.
EDIT: Just got confirmation, basic lands don't count. That frees up ~$5.00, so I think I might add in Eternal Witness. Reincarnation is my initial cut target, but I might find something else. I'll think on it.
I have a feeling you're right about Wave of Vitriol, too. I just hate to wade into any unknown meta without a real emergency big-red-button I can mash. Call that the first cut if I'm facing a bunch of fair, creature-based value decks without Theros gods or various Colossi or Darksteel Forge+whatevers.
Zendikar Resurgent, however, I'm a little higher on. I don't think it's a perfect solution, since it's not a creature, but I'm trying to think of it as Soul of the Harvest/Primordial Sage #3, with the mana double effect a side-effect. I have a feeling I really need to double down on card draw with this deck, since I'm losing the tutors. Plus it's cheap as dirt, lol.
It's almost believable because I run so many green decks that I actually did run out of Forests at one point and had to order a bulk lot of them. I still have tons of the other lands...
(NB: I will not do that. I'm going to try not to create maximum feelbads on the first day.
I took a hand with a Gaea's Cradle, Gaea's Herald, a Selvala, Heart of the Wilds, Polukranos, World Eater, two forests, and ...something else. I figured I could drop the forests, play the herald, get Selvala out, and drop Yeva on schedule.
My deck had other plans, providing an immediate Ancient Tomb top deck. I played Yeva turn 3, top decking into a Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx. With my luck firmly established, I dropped Selvala on T4 (Grenzo came out with one counter on T3, Kaalia dropped on curve on T4). Since I had gone first, I was able to respond to Kaalia's attack phase by dropping Polukranos and, with my insane mana generation, monstrifying him for five, killing Kaalia and Grenzo. To add to my good luck, the draw off Selvala for the 5/5 Polukranos was a Genesis Wave. Kaalia then killed Polukranos to keep me from tapping Selvala for 10 mana on the next turn (which was wise).
I was still able to key the Wave for x=12. The most important flip was a Greater Good. Garruk, Caller of Beasts hit play too and drew me into some stuff. Molder Slug had come out to play, and I let him kill a Junktroller Grenzo had flipped off the bottom then sacrificed him to the Greater Good, drawing into a Willow Satyr, an Eternal Witness, and some other stuff.
At this point, the game was pretty well in hand. Willow Satyr stole a recast Grenzo and then stayed tapped to keep him from his shenanigans. Kaalia came back and popped me in the mouth with an Avacyn, Angel of Hope, but I had Wellwisher up and running at that point and a Spore Frog in hand for if things got crazy.
I ended it with a Tooth and Nail entwined into Craterhoof Behemoth (i know, i know) and a just-in-case Seedborn Muse. Timbermare came down to tap out all possible blockers. I felt a little bad about the Tooth-into-Hoof, but I figured the other two were probably just glad to end a game that I had such clear control over.
Things That Went Well:
--Good luck, on winning the go-first roll and on topdecks throughout the game
--Willow Satyr. I feel vindicated, that card is bananas. He kept Grenzo from climbing back into things. I just regret that I didn't have two of him to steal Kaalia too.
--Polukranos. I don't remember exactly, but at some point he climbed out of the graveyard to wipe Grenzo and Kaalia's board a second time. There were a couple turns in the middle there that I don't remember exactly.
--Garruk, Caller of Beasts. His +1 felt powerful, especially as I was able to repeat it a couple times. I drew one card once and four cards another time. No one seemed terribly concerned by him, but that might be because I was doing so many other crazy things. I'll keep testing him to make sure.
Things That Didn't Go Well:
--That nagging feeling that I would have been in major trouble without that huge Genesis Wave or the insane land topdecks. Luck was strongly in my favor, and I'll need to watch for games when it isn't.
--That's about it, really.
Other notes:
--I'm going to update the OP to reflect the changes to the ramp package. I'm liking the land-untapping/fetching a lot. Even if I did have insane luck in that game, I also saw a Crop Rotation and a Reap and Sow, so in theory I should have been able to fetch up one or two pieces even if I had only seen basic lands.
--Annoyingly, I've had a difficult time getting my hands on a Voyaging Satyr of all bloody things. I can acquire a Gaea's Cradle and a Survival of the Fittest for this silly deck, and I can't find a bleeping common from Theros. Ugh. He's being played by a Ley Druid in the meantime.
--Speaking of basic lands, I've started pimping out the basic forests in the deck. I'm a sucker for pre-8e frames and "unique" artwork, so the Mirage Forests and a few of their like-kind have started creeping in.
So, we actually started a day early because there were only four signups and three of us could make Friday. The other two decks were a mono-B Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath deck that seemed to be a control/demon shell and a Kalemne, Disciple of Ioras out-of-box precon. I'm not too sure what the third deck was, but I don't think counterspells will be much of an issue so Gaea's Herald will be an easy cut.
I lost the first game we played pretty badly despite seeing a Seedborn Muse in my opening grip. Kalmene came out of the gate early with lots of mana rocks, and I didn't have an answer until I played Bane of Progress on T6. By that time, the two of them had jammed up the skies and were chunking away at my life total. I had a good draw engine set up, but a Deadly Tempest reset my board and put me below ten. A turn or two later, just as I was recovering, an angel of some sort hit me in the face and then a Fiery Confluence finished me off. Ob Nixilis ended up grabbing control with 5/5 demon tokens and taking the win a couple turns later. I didn't see Hornet Queen, Spore Frog, Arbor Colossus, or any of my other anti-flyer tech.
The second game started off more slowly, as I durdled around with Multani's Acolyte and Wirewood Symbiote for the opening turns. I didn't see a Muse or a tutor the whole game, but I was able to stick a decent amount of card draw (including Magus of the Library, which performed quite well) and some Wood Elves into a T6 Zendikar Resurgent with a mana open for Spore Frog. At the end of Kalemne's next turn, I dropped Terastadon to convert his lands into elephants and a Kamahl, Fist of Krosa. I overran Ob on my turn, then dropped Timbermare before Kalemne's combat phase and hit him for ~90 damage (he'd been lifegaining from Victory's Herald).
The deck was a lot slower and less powerful than the normal version, but it performed adequately. If I'd seen even just a Hornet Queen the first game, I think I could have pulled it out. I should have a chance to play some more games this week, and hopefully figure out what the fourth deck is for cuts.
Speaking of which, I asked what the budget restrictions for the seven cards we can switch each week are. There will be no restrictions (other than the EDH banlist). I clarified that I own things like the Cradle and the organizer said that would be fine. I know at least two of the other players have big collections, so I'm going to have to assume that I will have to competitive-up Yeva ASAP. The tenative seven I'm considering are:
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Deserted Temple
1 Tempt with Discovery
1 Reap and Sow
1 Summoner's Pact
1 Survival of the Fittest
I'm not 100% sold on the Reap and Sow yet. I might replace that slot with another tutor, perhaps Natural Order or Chord of Calling, or else something like Genesis Wave.
Hope your games have been going well too!
The league is going very well, to the point where I'm starting to be a little worried that I might need to tone the deck down a bit, as I'd rather have a community of players I can game with going forward than risk offending them by going for the throat. So far, the deck is 6-3 in 3/4-player games and 3-0 in duels. Granted, a couple of those wins came after I had been down early and people decided to show me mercy instead of killing me off, then I was able to get into a lock and pull out the victory. I'm hoping they won't keep making that mistake. Also, there should be more board wipes filtering into the meta, which will probably give other decks a better chance.
Interesting side note: the meta is dominated by flyers. In 10 games, I have yet to once even SEE Arbor Colossus in my hand and I've only had Hornet Queen twice. My savior has been Timbermare, especially when it is protecting me from Inferno Titan and its on-attack trigger. I'm glad to see my almost dogmatic belief in this janky card rewarded. It did get passed around the table in amazement the first time it hit the board as a "fog" as some of the players weren't around for Time Spiral block.
There are a couple new decks I'm facing off against too: an Oloro precon-with-upgrades and a Daretti straight-out-of-box. With the heavy artifact slant of the meta, the changes I made were:
1 Seeds of Innocence
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Tempt with Discovery
1 Survival of the Fittest
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Chord of Calling
1 Veilstone Amulet
1 Reincarnation
1 Gaea's Herald
1 Unyaro Bees
1 Hornet Nest
2 Forest
These changes added A LOT of late game power and, along with the mercy I was shown, helped me to stabilize some games that I was on the fast track to losing. However, I notice the deck is still playing a lot for the end-game and assuming they start targeting me more in the opening phases, there's every possibility that I could lose before T7 (Kalemne especially is a beating). As such, my next seven planned changes are:
1 Summoner's Pact
1 Sylvan Library
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Selvala, Heart of the Wilds
1 Shaman of Forgotten Ways
3 Forest
1 Masked Admirers
1 Compost
1 Yavimaya Dryad
1 Shamanic Revelation
However, if the meta is still having a difficult time adjusting to my deck at the end of the week, I might instead switch in the Willow Satyr pieces and some of the utility lands and save the ridiculous opening pieces for later.
With the cards I switched out, I'm afraid to say that I don't miss Reincarnation at all. It felt like a less powerful, more conditional Eternal Witness and I was never glad to draw it in the opening games. Veilstone Amulet wasn't a bad play, but since I was switching to more mass artifact destruction, I didn't feel like it would pull its weight going forward. The other cuts were "cute tricks" that didn't feel worth my time.
As for Amonkhet!
I'm not quite as excited for the set as I had been for Kaladesh and Shadows blocks, but there are some pieces I like. I think I'll invest in single cards for this set, instead of buying a box as had been my tradition for the last couple. Also, our enthusiasm for individual cards is a bit different, which is good as it will let us test the set more quickly! I was thinking about starting a "set review" section to the OP as new sets rotate in, and I would love your opinions!
As for mine:
Vizier of the Menagerie: A card that I will never be able to spell correctly without checking. This is virtual card advantage, something I'm always pining after in mono-green. Not having to reveal is brilliant and I hope that's the way these sort of cards are worded into the future. Even the color-fixing isn't terrible, as the number of color-less producing lands like Ancient Tomb can make double or triple green spells more unreliable. Will go in for immediate testing, not sure of the slot yet.
Manglehorn: Here is the card I'm most excited about. It's half of a Reclamation Sage tagged to the first green ETB tapped effect since Root Maze. As I have mentioned many times, I hate artifact rocks, and the fact that this is not even symmetrical makes me giggle with joy. This will also go in for immediate testing, probably in the Gaea's Herald slot. More on that:
Prowling Serpopard: A card I will never be able to say without giggling. I'm not that high on the Gaea's Herald effect right at the moment, nor am I convinced that this is a strict upgrade to it (one more mana, no elf type). If it drops below a dollar in price, I'll probably pick one up to test it out, but so far I haven't had much trouble with counterspells.
Rhonas the Indomitable: He's a little bit too much "big dumb green creature" for me. The only spots I could see him in would be a "finisher" position, and I don't think he replaces either Kamahl or Hoof. I'm interested to hear how any testing you do with him goes, though.
Some others I'm thinking about:
Throne of the God-Pharaoh: A non-combat (non-tutorable) win condition in green. I won't run it, but it's worth thinking about for, like, maybe a saporling deck that abuses Sprout Swarm? There a role for this card somewhere, I just haven't thought of it yet, but I'm pretty sure it's not a role in Yeva.
Shefet Monitor: I really like this card. It's not an auto-test like Manglehorn and Vizier, but it is very, very close to getting the nod over Yavimaya Elder. It's one less total mana (five v. four) for one less land, but putting that land into play instead of hand. I would need the four mana all on one turn, instead of three and two, which could hurt in a three-land mana screw. And if I need, I could stick the monitor as a 6/5 for Greater Good or Momentous Fall. Just typing this out, I'm starting to reconsider. Maybe I will test it over the Elder...
On the other hand, the draw suite is (if anything) more impressive than the actual deck's since there are so many cantripping creatures. Magus of the Library also has done some really impressive work, to the point where I'm considering him for the main deck. I figure I'll be testing some stuff out for Amonkhet anyway, so I can try him as well once April's over, maybe in the Juniper-Order Ranger slot.
My changes for week three are about trying to improve the speed of the deck.
3 Forest
1 Compost
1 Wren's Run Packmaster
1 Wolfbriar Elemental
1 Masked Admirers
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Sylvan Library
1 Selvala, Heart of the Wilds
1 Tooth and Nail
1 Shaman of Forgotten Ways
I didn't add the Gaea's Herald back in because Oloro is only one deck in the meta, and while I'll have a bad dueling matchup with him, hopefully other people will be doing scary enough things in multiplayer that I can sneak some stuff through. Tooth and Nail is the only card that's not oriented towards the early game, and I went back and forth a couple times between it and Priest of Titania, but ultimately decided that the extra power of the Tooth was more important. Genesis Wave was also under consideration, along with Yavimaya Hollow and Genesis, and those four are likely inclusions for the last week.
Compost was probably the hardest cut, but I have to admit that I was missing tons of triggers for it anyway and the Library seemed like a stronger T2 enchantment. I could have run both, of course, but I don't want to reduce the creature density too far or increase the non-creature
The deck is starting to resemble its actual form (and price tag!) more and more. A couple other cards missing from the main deck have made me rethink them: Evolutionary Leap in particular has been an all star in the games where I've been able to resolve it. Magus of the Library I mentioned earlier. Hornet Queen has been solid, but I think the greater consistency of TurboFrog in the main deck might make her stand out more here. Ulvenwald Tracker, although he is in the main deck, has really surprised me. His greatest moment yet has come while I was recurring a Beast Within soft-lock with Eternal Witness and Temur Sabertooth (and tons of mana), where he was using the indestructible Sabertooth to punch the 3/3 Beasts to death.
Yisan, the Wanderer Bard I'm afraid to say has continued to be a disappointment. Expect to see him cut in the next round. He (barely) held onto his job this time around by at least usually fetching a Ulvenwald Tracker for me.
MEANWHILE, over in Amonkhet land, I had thoughts on a few other cards:
Kefnet's Monument (and the various other monuments): Yeva likes playing creatures and getting extra value out of them. The tap and the looting ones seem the best to me. However, they're another do-nothing-alone artifact like Panharmonicon and Cloudstone Curio that I think would just clog up the hand and be difficult to weave around. It's worth keeping an eye on, though, and maybe testing. Shame the green one is so godawful.
Sandwurm Convergence: Dune-themed and including the words "...cannot attack you" made me sit up straight and take a look at this. I think it's probably too slow -- I can find better ways to spend eight mana -- but I think I'll pick up a copy for testing, maybe in another deck? Or a 75% build?
Harvest Season: Holy moly, this is insane. I found them preordering for a buck each and grabbed five of them. Maybe they'll drop down further, but I don't think that'll end up being a terrible investment even if they do. THAT having been said, I don't think Yeva's exactly the right deck for this sort of thing -- but it does start my little gray cells working on that Throne of the God-Pharaoh non-combat phase green deck I had been thinking about. Maybe get Symbiotic Deployment in there? (which then means Elfhame Sanctuary and possibly Recycle. Hmm...)
In other non-Yeva news, I'm brewing another mono-green control deck, trying out Stax with Titania, Protector of Argoth at the helm. There's nothing really revolutionary about the build yet, but I'm looking forward to another take on the obviously-most-powerful control color.
Anyway, that's my checkup. Hope you've been able to find some games, Squirrely! I'm off to bed to dream about how to tap more creatures in green - and which general would best head this pile of cards. Kamahl? I do want to put a lot of creatures into play. Nemata, Grove Guardian to put creatures in play? Rishkar, Peema Renegade has some synergy. Baby Nissa for card advantage? Dosan, the Falling Leaf, so everyone has to join me at sorcery speed? Seshiro the Anointed for snake-tribal card draw? Hua Tuo, Honored Physician for recursion? How does green have so many control-oriented generals?
Harvest Season (and Throne of the God-Pharaoh) - I really like the Wort list you posted. It looks pretty prime for blowing people up for huge damage, and I think the harvest season will do great work in the deck.
I did consider her briefly, even slapping together a quick list on but I kept coming back to the problem of "well, I could just cast Comet Storm copied for a million instead." I ended up building Rishkar, Peema Renegade instead -- the thread is here -- and I own most of the pieces, so I'll probably slap together the deck list once I get my hands on the Amonkhet cards to test it out.
I think you're right with the monuments and I don't plan to test any of them out, at least not immediately (or not in Yeva). I totally respect your decision not to play them in off-colored decks, by the way. It's not a qualm I have -- there's a little too much Spike in me, probably, and not enough Vorthos -- but I can understand where you're coming from.
League Deck
Another seven changes, switching in Genesis, Genesis Wave, Summoner's Pact, Nissa, Vastwood Seer, Garruk, Caller of Beasts, Greater Good, and Priest of Titania.
The Oloro deck in the league added a moon laser, changing a lot of the complexion of the league. I lost two games against him in a duel and won one, learning that I needed to keep constant pressure up to keep him from hitting fifty life, tutoring and a-firin' his lasers. Bigger multiplayer games went better, with the moon laser being less of a threat. I won two of three multiplayer games, with one of them being a classic Yeva cockroach "I don't care how many times you wipe the board, I'll recover" scenario.
I have some more games this Wednesday and Thursday. We'll see how the new cards help.
Main Deck
The league (and Amonkhet) have made me want to test some new cards in the deck. I won't get a chance to actually try them out until the league is over, as it's too much trouble to take the league deck apart, but here's what I'm thinking:
Yavimaya Elder -> Shefet Monitor. I discussed this earlier. I'm not sure that the ramp the Monitor offers will be worth it coming down a turn later than the Elder (and on the turn I'd want to play Yeva), but the advantages (uncounterable, less total mana, can be a giant body later in the game) seem to outweigh the disadvantages. I'll give it a chance and see how I like it.
Molder Slug -> Manglehorn. I haven't been that happy with the Slug. He's not enough of an impact when he hits the board to justify his mana cost, his power is too low to really be useful for fighting or dying for the Greater Good, and he doesn't really affect dedicated artifact decks like Breya who will always have extra artifacts to sac. The Manglehorn is much cheaper -- helping it to fight [/c]Sol Ring[/c]s -- and it the screws over opposing artifacts as long as it sticks around with a real disadvantage.
Gaea's Herald -> Magus of the Library. The Herald hasn't really been pulling her weight. Plenty of the spells I'm most worried about being countered are non-creatures anyway, plus extra card advantage will help me fight through counterspells. The Herald can also get in the way of people counterspelling other creatures like Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur that are obnoxious for me to deal with on my own. In league games, I've been loving the Magus and his combination of ramp and draw.
Momentous Fall -> Evolutionary Leap. The Leap has been money for me in every league game where I've hit it so far. It almost completely negates spot removal and board wipes by reestablishing my hand with gas. It can't draw non-creatures, of course, but it also can't land flood me. Meanwhile, I've been trending away from the single-use sorcery draw spells and towards more creature-cantrips and repeatable draw. On that note:
Rishkar's Expertise -> Protean Hulk. So, this got unbanned? I won't complain! I'm not sure how good it will be, but flashing out a Hulk in response to a boardwipe seems like a good game, plus there's enough sac outlets in the deck naturally to take advantage of him. No real combo, but plenty of value (for example, if I have a Seedborn Muse, I could sac him for an Eternal Witness+stuff to get Hulk back and then play him on the next turn and then...). I'm sure this is not the most broken use of the Protean Hulk, so I don't anticipate any complaints from my group.
Woodfall Primus -> Terastodon. Blowing up three non-creatures is just so backbreaking of an effect. The Primus may climb his way back in addition to the elephant, but for now I'm not sure I want to run both.
I would also like to get Vizier of the Menagerie in, but I'm not sure there's anything else I'd rather cut for it. Maybe it can play in Reap and Sow's place? I'm not sure that card has been worth the effort. I'll think about it.
Well, that's it for me. How are things looking on your end? Had a chance to get any games in?
You seem to be on the hunt for carddraw too. Something familiar in mono-green?
- With 7 druids in your decklist, Gilt-Leaf Archdruid is probably not quite good enough for the include. Are there other druids to add which may make the draw more favorable?
- Abzan Beastmaster might work if you have enough fat creatures on the field.
- Drumhunter may be a good card, plus he's a druid.
- I don't think I saw Garruk's Packleader in your list.
- With such a high creature count, Heartwood Storyteller could even be fairly one-sided.
- While a bit slower, Tireless Tracker may be a way to get some draw.
Perhaps some of these can assist with rounding out your card draw. Hope it helps.
| B Erebos, God of VampiresB | GYeva SmashG | RBosh ArtifactsR | GURAnimar +1 BeatsGUR | RBVial's Secret Hot SauceRB | UBRNekusar, Draw if you DareUBR | RGBDarigaaz'z DragonsRGB | GBSlimeFEETGB | UBOn-Hit LazavUB | URBrudiclad's Artificer InventionsUR | GUBMuldrotha's ElementalsGUB | WUGKestia's EnchantmentsWUG | GUTatyova - Draw, Land, Go!GU | WGArahbo's EquipmentWG | BUWVarina's ZOMBIE HORDESBUW | WLyra's Angelic SalvationW | WBChurch of TeysaWB | UAzami...WizardsU
- Yavimaya Elder
- Masked Admirers
- Garruk's Packleader (and to a lesser extent, Elemental Bond)
- Harmonize
Definitely play Patron of the Orochi. Seedborn Muse is your best card ever, so if Patron is even half of that, that's another chance at your best effect.
Also, unless I missed something in the masses of text above, I think you have a few too many ramp creatures. People are already going to look at the mono-green player and start thinking about ways to wrath the board, so losing your mana guys along with the rest of your team when that inevitably happens is just going to set you back even more. I'd much rather run effects like Cultivate and Rampant Growth than Krosan Restorer and Juniper Order Druid.
Re: Gilt-Leaf Archdruid - This is a very powerful card, no doubt, but I don't think I have the druid mass to really pull it off. I've also found her second ability tends to cause unreasonable hate in other players, even if I don't have enough druids to pull it off. Granted, Yeva spends most of her time being the archenemy anyway, but if I'm playing cards that are going to get me targeted, I want to at least make sure they are also helping to win me the game.
Re: Abzan Beastmaster / Drumhunter - As sad as this is to admit for a mono-green deck, I'm not sure I have big enough creatures to really trigger this consistently. I've noticed in my games that 4/4 is usually as big as my creatures get until I'm ready to win the game. Selvala, Heart of the Wilds gets to stick around because of her mana generation, so the Drumhunter is an interesting suggestion. I'll put some more thought into it.
Re: Garruk's Packleader / Elemental Bond / Kavu Lair - This deck tends to durdle a bit, playing and replaying smaller creatures like Reclamation Sage and Elvish Visionary. That's why I don't value power-dependent draw too highly -- as you'll see above, Rishkar's Expertise is likely coming out of the deck, and I've already cut Soul's Majesty and Garruk, Primal Hunter for the same reason. Also, I have a bit of a bias against what we have come to call "do-nothing" non-creature permanents (obviously not Packhunter, but the other two). With Yeva, I always want to be keeping my mana open for responses (unless I have a Seedborn Muse, but at that point the game's probably already either won or lost). Cloudstone Curio and Panharmonicon have already been cut for this reason, and I think both those cards are probably stronger for the archetype than Elemental Bond. I do have a Titania, Protector of Argoth stax-control deck I'm working on that runs all three of these effects, which I think will be very strong with her ability.
Re: Heartwood Storyteller - My biggest complaint with this card is that it is symmetrical. Over time, assuming a 4 player game, I'll be losing card advantage to my own effect -- eg, one opponent plays a non-creature, triggering a draw from each other player, which causes my opponents to draw two cards to the one I'm drawing. If at all possible, I want to make sure that none of my opponents are drawing cards at all!
Re: Tireless Tracker - I like this suggestion a lot. He's on the list for Titania, which runs all four fetch lands, all the forest-panoramas, Terramorphic Expanse, and Evolving Wilds. I very well may give this guy a chance to try out for Yeva too, perhaps subbing in the fetch lands to increase his output. I'll wait until I've had a chance to test the Amonkhet changes, then give him a try. Thanks!
Re: Yavimaya Elder - He's on the fence, but still sort-of in the deck!
Re: Masked Admirers - These were in the early drafts of the deck, but they just never seemed to really pull their weight. After some experience in a commander league with budget restrictions, I am considering adding more cantrip creatures into the deck, but these guys are in line behind Multani's Acolyte, Carven Caryatid, and Wall of Blossoms.
Re: Harmonize - I love Harmonize and use it in a bunch of decks, it's just sooooo sorcery speed. As I move away from things like Rishkar's Expertise, I'm not sure I want to backslide for another sorcery. Thanks for the reminder, though, I'll need to keep Harmonize on my radar!
Re: Patron of the Orochi - I had toyed with the idea of this card, but two things stopped me: one, it only untaps basic forests, not my "real" lands. two, it untaps ALL forests and green creatures, including any my opponents might have. So far, the deck functions well enough without Seedborn Muse that I don't feel the need to add a significantly worse alternative, and if she does find herself getting exiled a bit more I think that I'll probably add Riftsweeper instead. The card I wish I had a backup for is Temur Sabertooth -- my playgroup is starting to realize that he's the real lynchpin of this deck!
I'm working on a new OP for this thread that explains the philosophy of the deck a bit better, as well as reasons why I've chosen the ramp package I did.
The short explanation is that Yeva is excellent at responding to multiple wrath of god effects -- if you look a few posts up, I talk about a game where I survived two in the same turn and one on the next player's turn -- but in order to do so it needs a boat-load of mana. The strongest and most durable way to do that is with high-quality lands (hence the various land search effects; Crop Rotation, Tempt with Discovery, Reap and Sow). The land-untapping creatures were chosen for their ability to augment that plan while also providing solid early-game ramp. The other mana-producing creatures -- Priest of Titania, Selvala, Heart of the Wilds, Karametra's Acolyte - were chosen because of their cheap mana cost relative to the amount of mana they can produce.
In other words, this deck needs to be able to produce a lot of mana all at once, and if it can, it'll fight through almost any wrath effect (or TurboFrog its way through any aggro). If it can't, it'll probably lose. The mana base is therefore somewhat high on the risk/return spectrum. Like I said, I'm working on a writeup for this OP about this.
As for Cultivate and other low-risk/low-reward ramp specifically, I would prefer to run things like Wood Elves and Farhaven Elf - in fact, that was the original ramp package in this deck - as they can be more easily recurred and help win the game.
I really appreciate the thoughts and help! Tireless Tracker, again, is a super interesting suggestion and I'm looking forward to having a chance to test it out. Cheers!
I did see Manglehorn in the cards I drew off the Hulk, but it didn't really matter by that point. If I had seen it earlier, it would have been nice against Godo's artifact ramp.
So, yeah, Hulk seems just as ridiculous as I thought he would be. I'm keeping him in because I do want Yeva to be as good of a deck as possible, but I might have to reduce how often I play her. I'm thinking I might warn the group beforehand to make sure they chose their decks with the best matchups. On a mildly related note, I also debuted my Titania, Protector of Argoth stax deck, which didn't make me any friends either. I'll have to get my Rishkar, Peema Renegade deck put together so everyone doesn't just punch me when I pull out mono-green.
The most exciting news, I think, is that a card has finally been spoiled from a new set that fits into Yeva's color identity. And what a card it is! - a creature version of Crucible of Worlds. Given the amount of land hate that my group has started running (and rightly so - nuking Gaea's Cradle keeps Yeva from going crazy quite as quickly) Ramunap Excavator might find its way into the deck. That might even make it worth running the various green fetch lands, which I had been shying away from. And then it starts to lead to questions about Strip Mine - a bridge that I'll have to cross when I come to it.
The good news is that I've had a lot of chances to play test Yeva's main list about two dozen times, in both multiplayer and 1v1, since my last post. Vizier of the Menagerie is currently occupying Memory Jar's place, although I haven't actually drawn it in a live game yet. Seems like a pretty strict upgrade. I'm on a bit of a kick right now replacing non-creatures with creatures and pruning the overall number of artifacts.
I played three games with Yeva this week. The first was a T5 walloping where Seedborn Muse came out to play T3 with draw and tutor backup. The other two decks never had a chance to get going, so I'm not sure it counts as a great test. The other two games were dueling against a friend's new Wort, the Raidmother deck. Poor Wort didn't get a chance to come out and play as I got lucky and pulled a Willow Satyr in both matchups. The first game ended with a flashed out Temur Sabertooth letting me dodge an Earthquake and then push through lethal damage. The second game was a nailbiter, as he was able to resolve a Boundless Realms after a slow start on both sides. I tried to counter with Tempt with Discovery, but he fetched out a Strip Mine that nuked the Cradle and then had a Mwonvuli Acid-Moss for the Nykthos. That left me with seven forests, Yeva, a couple other creatures, and a flipped Duskwatch Recruiter (he must have flipped back and forth half a dozen times that game). On his first turn with big mana, he cast Terastodon to turn three of my forests into elephants. I floated the mana in response, then cast Regal Behemoth (costing 5 mana because of the Recruiter). I flashed in a Fierce Empath with the remaining mana, fetching up a Craterhoof Behemoth. On my turn I cast the Hoof with my last four lands and was able to sneak out the victory.
I also finally broke down and got a Magic Online account. My only promise was that I wouldn't use real money for virtual cards, so I put together a bizarre budget version of Yeva using the tickets they give you for starting an account and free credit from the trading bots. I don't pretend to understand the online market - where Seedborn Muse is worth pennies and Bane of Progress is $20+ - but the deck has been performing alright so far. I mostly duel because the idea of grinding through a multiplayer game using that system seems a bit daunting and/or boring. Yeva's not really a duel deck and I've gotten blown out more than a few times, but also sneaked out some good victories. People don't seem to read her closely, so I can't even count how many creatures she's killed because they attacked into my "open" board and then SURPRISE 4/4!!!!
Anyway, cards that aren't pulling their weight:
Memory Jar: Too clunky and artifact-y. I hope I get to see Vizier eventually so I know if it's a good switch.
Tooth and Nail: I think this might be another opportunity for me to say "You were right, Squirrely, I should have listened to you."
Command Beacon: I might keep this around until I test the Crucible of Worlds guy, but I've never really needed this land in Yeva.
Reliquary Tower: Just hasn't done enough to justify making colorless mana yet. It's nice not to pitch big hands, but it's not like I don't have Genesis to clean up the mess.
Reap and Sow: The land search is nice, but I think I might test out Bad Primetime in this slot again soon.
And cards that I (still) love:
Timbermare: I just can't stress how awesome this card is. It's gotten me several wins Online, either by creating an "infinite" fog loop with Temur Sabertooth or by tapping down blockers.
Krosan Tusker: I wasn't expecting to like this so much. I thought I'd come back to Yavimaya Elder in no time. But the cycle is just so easy, and it's something that I can actually do on T3 and have it affect things without screwing up my T4 plays, unlike Elder.
Joraga Treespeaker: This has done some serious lifting in my online list, although I don't know how much of that is due to the fact that Sol Ring is banned on MTGO. The highlight was playing against a R/G land destruction list. He'd been going after my land base pretty hard. I'd gotten a Treespeaker and a Wirewood Symbiote into play. Then I topdecked a Wood Elves. After several turns of him destroying one of my lands and me dropping two into play, I hit a Zendikar Resurgent. Strangely, he lost connection just as it resolved...
Willow Satyr: This card costs two cents online! TWO CENTS! Nuts. It completely neutralized Wort, the Raidmother in the two games I played recently, has locked Grenzo, Dungeon Warden out of the game, and caused all sorts of shenanigans and rage quits online. I give this card five trolls out of four.
Anyway, hope the last month has been just as Yeva-riffic for everyone else!
Chord of Calling is an amazing spell and I recommend it heartily. I've also been having pretty good luck with Vizier of the Menagerie (which I'm now almost certain will end up replacing Memory Jar for reals). I also like the Wildebeests route, as it multiplies the effectiveness of ETB draw like Wall of Blossoms. Still, playing the toned-down internet version, I'm starting to think that inconsistency might not be the worst thing in the world. I might develop a 75% Yeva build based on those principles to play in paper on occasion.
That having been said, the full spoilers for Hour of Devastation dropped today. There's a lot to be excited about. My initial thoughts for Yeva:
1) Hope Tender: So, yeah, I'm most excited about an uncommon mana dork. This is the first 2cc "untap any land" creature since Voyaging Satyr, which is an absolute all-star in the current build. Having to pay a mana to activate his abilities is a bit obnoxious, but early game he can exert to still power out the T3 Yeva. Late game, paying one mana to untap a Nykthos or Cradle is so inconsequential it might as well not even exist. And with Seedborn Muse out, he can exert himself every go around. I think this guy goes straight into the deck, no testing required, over Juniper Order Druid.
2) Ramunap Excavator: I feel like just the other day, I was typing something along the lines of "Yeah, that land would really only be good with Crucible of Worlds, but there's no way to tutor for that in green.." If Wizards is secretly scanning my brain for card ideas, then I would love a creature version of Greater Good and a creature version of Green Sun's Zenith, k??? Anyway, access to this sort of effect on a stick could possibly change a lot of the ways that Yeva works. If I'm already going to be the archenemy, Strip Mine could come in. The Fetches would actually be worth playing. Command Beacon's slot would become much more guaranteed. There's a couple other sac-for-effect lands I'd want to look at. I'm not sure if these changes will improve Yeva or not, but I will probably at least test them once the set drops.
3) Hour of Promise: Speaking of lands, a 5 mana sorcery that fetches out any two of them. I'll probably test this out in Reap and Sow's slot, but I don't like how it's a sorcery or how the lands come into play tapped. That slot is much more likely to end up being Ulvenwald Hydra when all is said and done.
4) Endless Sands: I think I might like this land over Miren, the Moaning Well. The lands have two purposes: protecting my stuff from removal, and letting Willow Satyr eat opposing legends. It's one less mana to activate the Desert, which then stores my creatures in exile or tucks away legends where only commanders can escape. If I have to pop it to get my own creatures back, of course, then my opponents also get their creatures back, but that's not the end of the world. No life is gained with the Desert, and if someone removes it then my creatures are gone forever. I'll test this card out and see how it does.
5) Uncage the Menagerie: And now we're getting into cards that I'm not eager to immediately test. This is a ton of value on a single card, but the values are awkward for my deck. For instance, there are only three 5-drops in the entire deck (Muse, Genesis, and Acidic Slime), meaning that Tooth and Nail would be more effective as a 7-mana tutor. Four four drops seems like the best gas (Karametra's Acolyte, Temur Sabertooth, Timbermare, Willow Satyr, although three three drops isn't terrible (Shaman of Forgotten Ways, Nissa, Vastwood Seer, Eternal Witness) and two two drops is ok (Priest of Titania, Duskwatch Recruiter). I'm going to have to give this card some thought, as well as decide which deck slot it might be tested in if at all.
6) Scavenger Grounds: Might be nice to have graveyard hate on a land. Shame this exiles itself in order to do it, so it doesn't play nice with Ramunap Excavator. On the other hand, turning Crop Rotation into screwing over GY decks seems cool. I'll think about it.
7) Quarry Beetle: With Yeva, though, this could save the Grounds. Sac the desert, put the effect on the stack, flash this guy in to bring the desert back, let the exile resolve. Beyond that, it might be nice to have land revival on a stick. Five mana is a bit steep, but 4/5 body isn't terrible, and he's easily repeatable. Shame he can only nab stuff from my graveyard. I'll keep an eye on this card depending on how land-focused of a turn the deck takes.
8) Majestic Myriarch: Mentioning this solely because it is our green mythic creature. It is a Big Dumb Green Creature in the truest sense of the word; 0/10 would not play.
I might be late to the party, and havn't read through all the posts, so I don't know if Magus of the Candelabra have been mentioned, but he seems like a stronger card then Hope Tender, even though he can't ramp the same (without a land that produces more then 1).
This card is what got me most excited (right after Ramunap Excavator). I imagine it would be best spend casting with x=3/4, since the big cmc creatures slot is less crowded. But getting 3 or 4 good utility creatures seems like a really good deal to me! Card advantage in monogreen is nothing to scruff at.