Yeah, Thunderfoot Baloth is pretty great. I can't believe I forgot to mention him in the Finisher section; he's in the budget alternate area, because he did some work for me in a low-budget league I played.
I don't think I'd ever replace Craterhoof Behemoth or Kamahl, Fist of Krosa with him - he's not as big as Hoof or as versatile as Kamahl - and the main list doesn't need more finishers, but he's a great alternative for more budget or goodstuff builds.
I'll add him to the Budget/Meta section of the Finishers.
My initial thoughts on Rivals of Ixalan, tldr version: some interesting cards, but nothing that is worth a testing slot for the main list.
Cacophodon: I look very closely at anything that says "untap target permanent". Unfortunately, Enrage is just too difficult to self-trigger in mono-green, and I hate relying on my opponents to help out. This was the only interesting Enrage card from the new set, so assume my review for all the other masochist dinosaurs is the same.
Ghalta, Primal Hunger: Big Dumb Green Creature. It's super big and super dumb and can be really cheap. Don't get me wrong; I don't think that a 12/12 for two green is BAD, I just don't think he'll shine in this particular style of deck.
Hunt the Weak: This feels like a real step back for Fight keyword cards. Also, I wonder how long they're going to keyword that? Fight seems really easy to remember for me. On the other hand, I still have to stare at cards and will myself to remember what the hell Menace does.
Jadelight Ranger: I still prefer actual cantrips to Explore (that god that's reminder texted). This is the best of the Explore creatures, and it's still unplayable.
Naturalize: Wouldn't run it before the reprint (I prefer things that deal with indestructible, like Deglamer), won't run it, but this is sweet artwork.
Path of Discovery: Maaaaybe if this was a creature I'd consider it. Four mana do-nothing-on-resolution enchantment doesn't really work for the deck. Should be OK for budget decks, assuming the inflated preorder price drops down. Note that there seems to be a problem with this card in the system right now; the name above is right, but for some reason Salvation prefers Path to Discovery.
Tendershoot Dryad: I like that it's an army in a can AND an anthem for that army. Ascend shouldn't be hard to achieve. Still, Avenger of Zendikar likely does the same job better, and it's not in the deck.
Thrashing Brontodon: Now THIS is interesting. A slightly different take on Caustic Caterpillar. I appreciate that it has a relevant body and a cheaper activation cost. I don't think I want to be cutting one-drops for three-drops, though. The Caterpillar's most useful attribute is coming down on T1 and making people rethink their early artifact and enchantment plays. Might be more relevant in metas with a lot of Humility effects.
Wayward Swordtooth: This is super cute. I really like the card design, and I have no doubt that this will find a home in a lot of green decks. I'm just not looking for 3-mana ramp in this deck. I mean, if Azusa, Lost but Seeking didn't make the cut, I doubt this will.
World Shaper: Shame it's a death trigger, not an ETB trigger. There's enough sac mechanics in the deck to reliably trigger it, but not enough self-mill (and yes, I know World Shaper has a bit built in) to really take advantage. It'd be huge in very particular situations, and I don't see those coming often enough to warrant one of the very limited deck-slots (and 4-drops!) that I have. Titania, Protector of Argoth should love this guy, though...
Rivals is kind of a pile for Yeva. Explore and enrage are useless, and green doesn't have any raid guys. Wayward Swordtooth is the only one that's close, and original Exploration was never really in contention, so adding a shaky 5/5 for more mana isn't going to cut it.
Ghalta was a huge letdown, no pun intended. You would think that a creature with the type of "Elder Dinosaur" would be a shoe-in for a deck full of big green creatures, but this could not be a worse fit.
Tendershoot Dryad might be the dark horse of the set. This deck will Ascend very easily, so making a 3/3 for FREE on EVERY TURN (not just your own) is nothing to sneeze at. Unfortunately the commander format has no shortage of strong five-drops, strong token-makers, etc.
The best thing that can be said about Rivals is that it was better than Commander '17, the set where they just sort of forgot to print green cards.
I do really like Tendershoot Dryad. I'm hoping that the preorder price will drop a bit more. I think I'd be into a playset for about a dollar each, and I don't see them making the kind of Modern or Standard wave that will keep them above that price. It is sort of silly how much better they are than Verdant Force. Sure, they're not 7/7, but having the same token creation ability with a random anthem upside that you'll almost always have in multiplayer? For THREE less mana, and two mana symbols less intense of a casting cost? Insane. I have a 60-card casual multiplayer saproling deck that it will slot right into once the price is right.
Yeah, I rolled my eyes at Ghalta too. Really a shame to waste an "elder dinosaur" on such a vanilla creature.
Maybe Dominaria will have some more toys. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for an elf tribal subtheme - not that I think we'll get anything on the level of Priest of Titania or Wirewood Symbiote, but it would be nice to explore their mechanics in a new way and see if there's anything that's silly at instant speed. (maybe an elf that's a functional reprint of Greater Good? I'd even take it if you had to tap the elf to use it. HINT HINT WIZARDS)
I do really like Tendershoot Dryad. ... It is sort of silly how much better they are than Verdant Force. Sure, they're not 7/7, but having the same token creation ability with a random anthem upside that you'll almost always have in multiplayer? For THREE less mana, and two mana symbols less intense of a casting cost? Insane.
Man, poor Verdant Force can't catch a break. First, he's painfully obsoleted, and THEN he gets a reprint in the next set? As a rare? It's like they want kids to open packs and be all like "Hey, isn't this just a worse version of the card I got out of Rivals?"
Anyway, Dominaria review is up. For the TL;DR folks, there's nothing worth running in the main deck and a few cards that might be decent in budget or other versions. Luckily, the only piece of serious anti-Yeva tech also happens to be an artifact, so shouldn't be too hard to deal with.
I did also preorder a Raff Capashen, Ship's Mage. Making an artifact and legendary creatures version of Yeva in U/W feels like...well, like U/W has better things it could be doing instead, but I'm going to try and force it anyway.
I did also preorder a Raff Capashen, Ship's Mage. Making an artifact and legendary creatures version of Yeva in U/W feels like...well, like U/W has better things it could be doing instead, but I'm going to try and force it anyway.
I wanted to do the same thing, but it would mean taking apart my Esper deck with the foil Thopter Foundry and I just can't bring myself to do that.
Back on topic...Dominaria is not a good set for this format. Very disappointing.
Yeah, I was really hoping for more Elf stuff. I guess maybe when we get Return to Lorwyn (oh blessed day!)...
There are plenty of fun toys for green, though. My Rishkar, Peema Renegade saproling-combo deck (there's a non-niche archetype...) is drooling over Fungal Plots, for example.
I also updated the "Building on a Budget" section to reflect current prices. Genesis Wave went down...and everything else shot up. Looks like Gaea's Cradle is being bought out or some such silliness. I'm seeing prices over $400. I'm super glad I bought it when I did, and I don't think I could recommend anyone else do the same now. It's insanity.
I have a Yeva build that I haven't updated in probably two+ years now, so thought I'd go through and tweak it for new cards. I just found and finished reading your guide, really nicely done! You've given me some really strong ideas for cuts and replacements, thank you for that.
My group knows well the power of Seedborn Muse in my build, so I've been looking for a good backup to include. I think this may fit? Paradox Engine is strictly not as good as Muse in Yeva, but it can enable a lot of the same plays, and on the right board, it enables even more EOT stuff. It doesn't degenerate into infinite plays like it does in a lot of other decks, but it's still a potential star here.
Just curious if you'd evaluated it in your build, and what your thoughts were on it.
Hey! Welcome to the thread. I hope your Yeva rebuild goes well, there's been some interesting toys printed in the last couple years.
As for Paradox Engine, that's a great question! I'll admit that I did consider it for this deck. I ended up deciding against it for a couple reasons. Most importantly, it's not a creature, which means there's no real way to tutor it, it can never be played at instant speed (without other non-tutorable shenanigans), it can't be saved by Temur Sabertooth, and the recursion options are more limited (Genesis doesn't work, for instance). Non-creatures really have to pull their weight to be included in the main list because the advantages creatures have are so many.
I'd consider it for a version, perhaps, which eschews the tutors in favor of redundancy. Even still, it's probably the fourth version of such an effect that I'd run, following Seedborn Muse, Patron of the Orochi, and Quest for Renewal (in roughly that order). It's not really a "budget" card - what is it, ~$15 USD? - so I'm not sure how useful it would be there, unless you already own one of course!
There's also the issue that Yeva would be using Paradox Engine in an inherently "fair" manner - that is to say, not an infinite one-shot kill* - but most decks that run one do not. Running out something like Paradox Engine might not be able to end the game efficiently enough to justify the hate that it garners, which can sometimes run from game to game. If your opponents see a Paradox Engine, they're going to assume you have a rude combo kill in the deck and try to take you out immediately.
And, of course, I always like to remind people that the deck can win very easily without Seedborn Muse, so if she gets taken out things are just more difficult, but nowhere near impossible. Assuming you're able to afford a suitable density of tutors (which, with the price spikes Survival of the Fittest just saw, I won't assume..) I would say just stick with the Muse alone. Otherwise, Patron and Quest I would say are in line before Paradox Engine.
Anyway, hope this helps! It's always good to get some out-of-the-box ideas for Yeva!
Appreciate the well thought out response. You rock! I think every point you made was good sense, with regards to Paradox.
Currently, my Yeva deck is probably closer to a "good stuff" build, and when I made it we had a fairly casual group, which tended to prefer randomness and variance in our games. I would rarely ever run non-land tutors for that reason, but our power level has increased recently, so I need to keep up. (Thankfully I already have a Survival of the Fittest!) Your recommendations are on point, I think I just have to change my thinking a bit.
I saw the option of Patron of the Orochi, but even though it probably helps Yeva more than anyone else, I've always hated effects that help my opponents too. Not to mention we have multiple mono greens in our group. I hadn't ever considered the Quest for Renewal, that's a decent alternative I might test out.
How often do you win without Seedborn Muse? I find that my ability to be reactive when I don't have Seedborn available is so dramatically reduced, that I really hate when it's been exiled. Although in fairness, my mana is more of the Cultivate/Skyshroud Claim variety, and less of the Priest of Titania/Voyaging Satyr type. I've never used Riftsweeper, but I may have to give that one a try. Also, it sounds to me, if you had to choose between Seedborn and Temur Sabertooth, you'd rather have Temur, yes? Maybe I'm just putting too much emphasis on Seedborn. (But he's just so damn good!)
One other question, if you don't mind, regarding Polukranos, World Eater. I never thought I was bad at math until I tried to understand this card. Let's say you pay 11 to go monstrous, so X=5. You can now kill up to five 1/1s, who would then deal 5 back to Polukranos, who's a 10/10 now, right? On the other hand, if you chose to kill a Thragtusk and a Myojin of Night's Reach, just to use a random example, they're going to return enough damage to kill Polukranos. Am I understanding this right? The second example is a bit of a reach, I realize, but I'm curious what you're usually targeting with him. Are you usually just trying to remove a single target that's causing pain, or are you generally trying to maximize card advantage (3, 4, 5, for 1, etc)? I've never used him before, so I feel like I'm missing something. He seems rather limited, and very mana intensive.
Yeah, I get the thing about Patron helping out other green decks, too. You know your meta better than anyone else, so I won't make but one last pitch. That is, most other mono-green decks do stuff at sorcery speed, so Yeva can take advantage of timing to keep them under control. Activating his ability in the other green deck's end step, for instance, instead of their upkeep or main phase. Quest for Renewal can be great too, but I'll caution you to remember it only hits creatures, not lands, so if you have a Cultivate/Kodama's Reach based acceleration strategy*, it will struggle more than a creature-based ramp strategy.
* - Safe land acceleration is totally legit, by the way. I'm assuming you're also packing the land-elves route (ie: Wood Elves and friends). If not, they're amazing. On the budget version I sometimes play, I had one board state where I had Yeva, a Wood Elves, a leveled-up Joraga Treespeaker, and a Wirewood Symbiote. Every round I'd tap the Treespeaker and a forest, bounce the Wood Elves untapping the Treespeaker, and put another untapped Forest into play. Good times.
As for Seedborn Muse, I'm afraid I don't have any hard numbers. My gut feeling is that I'm more likely to win with the Muse than without but probably somewhere near half my wins either I never pull/fetch Muse or she is removed in some way I can't recover her. I do know my most recent win with Yeva, last week, was in a three player game and didn't involve the Muse. I don't remember the exact sequence, but I only saw one tutor and I needed it to fetch out a Timbermare to stay alive (there may have been a lol-huge the Mimeoplasm involved? I don't remember. Some lethal potential attack.). I'd flipped a Growing Rites of Itlimoc earlier and had one or two land untappers, so after the Timbermare tapped everyone down I was able to drop a Kamahl, Fist of Krosa at the end of the turn of the fellow before me and beat the other two players down on my turn.
I'll try to keep track of my games to get a better idea of the statistics on this thing.
But, yeah, you nailed me. If I was making a list of the "most vital creatures" in the deck, #1 would be Temur Sabertooth by a country mile. Seedborn Muse is second place, but it's closer to third than it is to first.
I think the disconnect might be partially related to the differences in acceleration strategy. With high-risk burst mana, the incremental advantage of Seedborn Muse seems less relevant, as I'm playing all the creatures I need in one end-of-turn phase right before my (hopefully) game-ending attack. With slower, steadier mana, I can see how playing creatures out over a number of turns or being worried about keeping response mana up is more vital.
I don't know if you have the ability to try out a high-risk, high-reward ramp strategy. Gaea's Cradle is insanely expensive, but it can work pretty well with just Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx and/or Growing Rites of Itlimoc. The untappers themselves and Karametra's Acolyte are pennies. Priest of Titania isn't free, but it's less than five bucks even after the Pauper-related spikes. I've moved away from Reap and Sow and Hour of Promise, but they're both pretty cheap. You could probably put together a pretty good package for under $20. Every now and then you'll run into a solid wall of creature hate and get no traction at all - but then, Yeva will always have an uphill battle against ultra-heavy creature hate. Most of the time, I think the oodles of mana you can produce will help to outrun/protect against the hate.
This sort of bleeds into your other question (about Polukranos, World Eater), so you'll have to forget my rambling response.
For your example, yes, eleven mana would produce five points of damage. I always remember the equation MANA=(DAMAGEx2)+1. And, yes, he does get the +1/+1 counters before the damage is dealt back to him, so he would be a 10/10 in that example. If the five damage was dealt to Thragtusk and Myojin of Night's Reach, they'd to ten damage back and kill him.
As for what I do with him, I look at Polukranos primarily as a way to deal with pesky creatures that don't need to attack. Red zone creatures are easy; they eat a Spore Frog or a Timbermare. Things like, say, Peacekeeper or Dawnstrider or Blazing Archon are more problematic. Ulvenwald Tracker can also deal with most of those creatures, but he can't be activated the same turn he's played.
Consider Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur. Most likely, you don't want him to get to his end step or the U/x player gets to draw a butt-load of cards (...or on your end step to strip you of your hand...). Fetching out a Ulvenwald Tracker doesn't solve the problem until your next upkeep step. Polukranos, on the other hand...well, he'll need a lot of mana, but by that stage of the game a high-risk strategy can probably make up for it. Four to play, eleven to monstrify, figure one to fetch with a Survival of the Fittest for 16 total. That's only two taps of a Itlimoc, Cradle of the Sun with eight creatures on the board.
Polukranos's second role is just a big beat stick. Not that great for red zone damage, but he loves fightin' stuff with the Tracker's help, or those sad occasions where the Greater Good needs him...
Ergh, this post has gotten far longer and more rambly than I intended. I'd better go to bed while I'm still ahead! I hope there was at least some coherence and value in it for you.
I’m going to start referring to you as the Professor. You’re giving great answers, thanks so much.
I’ve been a mono green player for a long time so I actually have almost all the cards from your list already, just missing a couple of the newer ones. Also, my group is great about supporting proxies while tweaking or otherwise testing decks, so really, everything is an option. If I like how something plays, I’ll buy it later.
After reading and absorbing all this, I’ve come to the conclusion that I’ve been seriously handcuffing Yeva by running so much sorcery speed junk. I just counted my current list... 7 enchantments, 5 artifacts, 15 sorceries, 4 instants, 38 lands, 1 planeswalker, 30 creatures. A significant majority is sorcery speed!! That’s kind of embarrassing. It’s probably not surprising that a majority of the wins were simply from Seedborn Muse powering out enough stuff to setup alpha strikes with Asceticism in play to keep them alive. Then dropping something like Beastmaster Ascension or Craterhoof to win. My deck has been very one dimensional.
I think I’m going to test out the high risk/reward mana package that you recommend. In fact, aside from a few minor changes for personal preference I’m going to try a close duplicate of your entire list and see how I like it. I’ll let you know how it goes. Thanks again for taking the time to share your knowledge and experiences!
I wish you all the best. And not just because now my reputation is staked on the deck's performance.
Also glad to hear that you're already invested in a lot of the green staples. I was shocked when I went in to update the budget section a couple weeks ago. At least Genesis Wave and Summoner's Pact have fallen in price, if nothing else has.
The Battlebond review is up. For the TL;DR crew, I'll be testing out Bramble Sovereign and Pir's Whim (in the Acidic Slime and Tempt with Discovery slots respectively). There's some great reprints, get them while they're cheap. And the rest of the set is boring for mono-green.
Core Set 2019 review is up. For the TL;DR crew, I'll be testing Vivien Reid, Runic Armasaur, and Elvish Rejuvenator (though not all at the same time). There's quite a few other fun green cards; I'm tempted to make a GIGANTOSAURUS (I looked it up, the correct spelling is all capital letters always) deck with that playset of Greater Goods I got from the Battlebond reprint.
I also updated the list to finally reflect that Strip Mine has replaced Reliquary Tower. There might be another minor change or two coming in the near future.
Can't say enough good things about our new friend Goreclaw. He's absolutely Yeva's BFF. He might even be the actual bear depicted in Yeva's artwork. He's one of the few cards in recent memory that I immediately paid full retail price to acquire.
Afraid I'm a little more bearish (ha! nerdy economics joke ftw) on Goreclaw in my deck. I rarely want to be playing more than one 4+ power creature in a turn. The cost reduction doesn't hit any of the non-creature spells and less than half of the creatures. Her last clause is underwhelming in a world of Kamahl, Fist of Krosa, Craterhoof Behemoth, and ways to tutor for them. At the 4cc ramp slot, I'd rather run things like Argothian Elder or Ley Weaver.
Still, I can see builds of Yeva where Goreclaw'd be absolutely brutal. I'm ordering a copy (as part of my "buy at least one of every interesting new green card" plan) and I may end up testing it out.
I have considered Vigor, but I'm afraid I think it's a little too niche to play in most high-budget Yeva decks. With the recent reprint, however, it may be worth consideration in some medium to low budget decks.
My main problem is that there are two things Vigor is good at: stopping damage-based removal (Blasphemous Act, Lightning Bolt, etc) and stopping aggro (by providing invincible blockers). In my build, those two areas are well covered by the graveyard recursion and self-bounce protection, just like for non-damage-based removal, and by TurboFrog against attacking decks. As such, Vigor mainly exists as a Big Dumb Green creature, one which isn't needed. I will probably add a blurb about it in the Utility section under "Budget/Meta" as I don't think it's entirely useless, and certainly in a Good Stuff build it could be quite handy, but I don't think it'll end up making the cut for a Yeva build dedicated to abusing her ability.
----------------
In other news, as I was asked to track how often Seedborn Muse figures into my wins, I had two more of those this week. The first one, a 4-player game, didn't see a Muse at all before I was able to win (via Kamahl, Fist of Krosa). The second one I did flip a Muse off a Genesis Wave (cast for x=24 on T6; think that might be a record for the deck), but that was the same turn I won as the Wave also flipped a Craterhoof Behemoth.
Commander 2018 review is up. For the TL;DR crew, they remembered to print green cards this year! Hooray! But, while many are good, none are good for Yeva. Boo!
As for the Seedborn Muse tracker, I had another win flipping her off a lucky Genesis Wave and won the next turn (while using Terastodon/Temur Sabertooth to wreck my opponents' mana bases so they couldn't fight back during the circuit). Seedborn Muse really helped. I should start keeping track of this:
Oh, for sure, good call. I just slotted it in for testing last night, and Beast Whisperer took over the game where I saw it. My personal life has been a bit hectic the last month or so, so I haven't had time to complete the "Return to Return to Ravnica" review yet, but I should get that up sometime in the next few days.
I was able to play for the first time in about a month the other night.
The second game (against Jhoira of the Ghitu, Etali, Primal Storm, and Karador, Ghost Chieftain) flew off the rails pretty early. Because I felt bad about the first game, I kept a hand I shouldn't have (all 4cc+, no ramp). I then compounded that with an emotional decision, rather than a rational one (in almost every game against OG Jhoira, I end up killing her before her first untap; I *should* have sat on Beast Within, but it just seemed too much of a shame to break the tradition). I never really got off the ground, especially after Etali stole my Terastodon and turned my lands into elephants, and eventually Jhoira won.
I don’t understand how you guys don’t have more love for Yisan. The primer says she’s not that good because she can eat removal, but that’s true for Seedborn Muse also, and Yisan is great with Seedborn Muse.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
Hey, good question. I've played pretty extensively with Yisan, the Wanderer Bard in both the normal and budget versions of this list. He's almost acceptable in the budget versions. It comes down to immediacy of impact. Yeva, Nature's Herald is by instinct a reactive deck. Creature tutors need to be able to fetch out what I need when I need it. If I need a Spore Frog, for instance, I need it right now. I can't wait a full turn cycle for Yisan to come online.
Also, many of the creatures the deck is looking for (Temur Sabertooth, Seedborn Muse, Craterhoof Behemoth, etc) are high-CC creatures. The investment of resources in mana with the high-risk, high-reward mana package makes their CC less relevant, but Yisan would have to untap five times before he could fetch out a Muse. The other tutors in the deck are either less conditional or faster or both; Yisa doesn't stand a chance in a straight up competition against Chord of Calling, for example.
It is true that any creature can eat removal; that's why Yeva's plan involves saving creatures from removal, either by bouncing them to hand or by reviving them from the graveyard. Unfortunately, either one of those plans resets Yisan, making it unlikely he will ever get out of the 1-2 mana cost area.
Yisan is an extremely powerful card in his own deck, which will have been optimized to best take advantage of his powerful recurring tutor through untap effects and a strict CC curve. Yeva is simply a very different deck, focused more on immediate board impact, control, and an overwhelming combat finish.
Now of course every opinion is subjective, and every deck is different. It is very possible to build a Yeva deck to take advantage of Yisan's unique abilities, but then you'd probably be better off just building a Yisan deck.
I don't think I'd ever replace Craterhoof Behemoth or Kamahl, Fist of Krosa with him - he's not as big as Hoof or as versatile as Kamahl - and the main list doesn't need more finishers, but he's a great alternative for more budget or goodstuff builds.
I'll add him to the Budget/Meta section of the Finishers.
Ghalta was a huge letdown, no pun intended. You would think that a creature with the type of "Elder Dinosaur" would be a shoe-in for a deck full of big green creatures, but this could not be a worse fit.
Tendershoot Dryad might be the dark horse of the set. This deck will Ascend very easily, so making a 3/3 for FREE on EVERY TURN (not just your own) is nothing to sneeze at. Unfortunately the commander format has no shortage of strong five-drops, strong token-makers, etc.
Yeva (88/92 foils)
Raff
Scarab
Rakdos
Wort ($50 budget, 94/97 foils)
Trostani
I do really like Tendershoot Dryad. I'm hoping that the preorder price will drop a bit more. I think I'd be into a playset for about a dollar each, and I don't see them making the kind of Modern or Standard wave that will keep them above that price. It is sort of silly how much better they are than Verdant Force. Sure, they're not 7/7, but having the same token creation ability with a random anthem upside that you'll almost always have in multiplayer? For THREE less mana, and two mana symbols less intense of a casting cost? Insane. I have a 60-card casual multiplayer saproling deck that it will slot right into once the price is right.
Yeah, I rolled my eyes at Ghalta too. Really a shame to waste an "elder dinosaur" on such a vanilla creature.
Maybe Dominaria will have some more toys. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for an elf tribal subtheme - not that I think we'll get anything on the level of Priest of Titania or Wirewood Symbiote, but it would be nice to explore their mechanics in a new way and see if there's anything that's silly at instant speed. (maybe an elf that's a functional reprint of Greater Good? I'd even take it if you had to tap the elf to use it. HINT HINT WIZARDS)
Man, poor Verdant Force can't catch a break. First, he's painfully obsoleted, and THEN he gets a reprint in the next set? As a rare? It's like they want kids to open packs and be all like "Hey, isn't this just a worse version of the card I got out of Rivals?"
Anyway, Dominaria review is up. For the TL;DR folks, there's nothing worth running in the main deck and a few cards that might be decent in budget or other versions. Luckily, the only piece of serious anti-Yeva tech also happens to be an artifact, so shouldn't be too hard to deal with.
I did also preorder a Raff Capashen, Ship's Mage. Making an artifact and legendary creatures version of Yeva in U/W feels like...well, like U/W has better things it could be doing instead, but I'm going to try and force it anyway.
I wanted to do the same thing, but it would mean taking apart my Esper deck with the foil Thopter Foundry and I just can't bring myself to do that.
Back on topic...Dominaria is not a good set for this format. Very disappointing.
Yeva (88/92 foils)
Raff
Scarab
Rakdos
Wort ($50 budget, 94/97 foils)
Trostani
There are plenty of fun toys for green, though. My Rishkar, Peema Renegade saproling-combo deck (there's a non-niche archetype...) is drooling over Fungal Plots, for example.
I also updated the "Building on a Budget" section to reflect current prices. Genesis Wave went down...and everything else shot up. Looks like Gaea's Cradle is being bought out or some such silliness. I'm seeing prices over $400. I'm super glad I bought it when I did, and I don't think I could recommend anyone else do the same now. It's insanity.
I have a Yeva build that I haven't updated in probably two+ years now, so thought I'd go through and tweak it for new cards. I just found and finished reading your guide, really nicely done! You've given me some really strong ideas for cuts and replacements, thank you for that.
I haven't read all the comments yet, but a quick thread search returned no results on Paradox Engine. It has some drawbacks I know -- it's a hated artifact, it does little for resilience, and it's not a creature so you're only playing it on your turn. But the deck potentially runs enough non-land mana acceleration to really trigger some explosive turns with it. Priest of Titania, Voyaging Satyr, Hope Tender, Karametra's Acolyte, Selvala, Heart of the Wilds, Shaman of Forgotten Ways, Krosan Restorer, Magus of the Candelabra, Ley Druid, Juniper Order Druid, Joraga Treespeaker, Somberwald Sage, and of course it would also hit Sol Ring and Mana Crypt. It combos best with the "untap target land" guys, especially when you have Nykthos, Itlimoc, and/or Gaea's Cradle out, and it really makes Magus a powerhouse.
My group knows well the power of Seedborn Muse in my build, so I've been looking for a good backup to include. I think this may fit? Paradox Engine is strictly not as good as Muse in Yeva, but it can enable a lot of the same plays, and on the right board, it enables even more EOT stuff. It doesn't degenerate into infinite plays like it does in a lot of other decks, but it's still a potential star here.
Just curious if you'd evaluated it in your build, and what your thoughts were on it.
As for Paradox Engine, that's a great question! I'll admit that I did consider it for this deck. I ended up deciding against it for a couple reasons. Most importantly, it's not a creature, which means there's no real way to tutor it, it can never be played at instant speed (without other non-tutorable shenanigans), it can't be saved by Temur Sabertooth, and the recursion options are more limited (Genesis doesn't work, for instance). Non-creatures really have to pull their weight to be included in the main list because the advantages creatures have are so many.
I'd consider it for a version, perhaps, which eschews the tutors in favor of redundancy. Even still, it's probably the fourth version of such an effect that I'd run, following Seedborn Muse, Patron of the Orochi, and Quest for Renewal (in roughly that order). It's not really a "budget" card - what is it, ~$15 USD? - so I'm not sure how useful it would be there, unless you already own one of course!
There's also the issue that Yeva would be using Paradox Engine in an inherently "fair" manner - that is to say, not an infinite one-shot kill* - but most decks that run one do not. Running out something like Paradox Engine might not be able to end the game efficiently enough to justify the hate that it garners, which can sometimes run from game to game. If your opponents see a Paradox Engine, they're going to assume you have a rude combo kill in the deck and try to take you out immediately.
And, of course, I always like to remind people that the deck can win very easily without Seedborn Muse, so if she gets taken out things are just more difficult, but nowhere near impossible. Assuming you're able to afford a suitable density of tutors (which, with the price spikes Survival of the Fittest just saw, I won't assume..) I would say just stick with the Muse alone. Otherwise, Patron and Quest I would say are in line before Paradox Engine.
Anyway, hope this helps! It's always good to get some out-of-the-box ideas for Yeva!
(* - so, I do have a mono-green deck that runs Paradox Engine. It's my Rishkar, Peema Renegade deck, which abuses Sprout Swarm and Paradox Engine to create infinite saprolings, which I hopefully then use Fungal Plots or Psychotrope Thallid to draw out the deck, which includes a Throne of the God-Pharaoh for the win. It's janky as all hell, but I've managed to pull it off twice so far!)
Currently, my Yeva deck is probably closer to a "good stuff" build, and when I made it we had a fairly casual group, which tended to prefer randomness and variance in our games. I would rarely ever run non-land tutors for that reason, but our power level has increased recently, so I need to keep up. (Thankfully I already have a Survival of the Fittest!) Your recommendations are on point, I think I just have to change my thinking a bit.
I saw the option of Patron of the Orochi, but even though it probably helps Yeva more than anyone else, I've always hated effects that help my opponents too. Not to mention we have multiple mono greens in our group. I hadn't ever considered the Quest for Renewal, that's a decent alternative I might test out.
How often do you win without Seedborn Muse? I find that my ability to be reactive when I don't have Seedborn available is so dramatically reduced, that I really hate when it's been exiled. Although in fairness, my mana is more of the Cultivate/Skyshroud Claim variety, and less of the Priest of Titania/Voyaging Satyr type. I've never used Riftsweeper, but I may have to give that one a try. Also, it sounds to me, if you had to choose between Seedborn and Temur Sabertooth, you'd rather have Temur, yes? Maybe I'm just putting too much emphasis on Seedborn. (But he's just so damn good!)
One other question, if you don't mind, regarding Polukranos, World Eater. I never thought I was bad at math until I tried to understand this card. Let's say you pay 11 to go monstrous, so X=5. You can now kill up to five 1/1s, who would then deal 5 back to Polukranos, who's a 10/10 now, right? On the other hand, if you chose to kill a Thragtusk and a Myojin of Night's Reach, just to use a random example, they're going to return enough damage to kill Polukranos. Am I understanding this right? The second example is a bit of a reach, I realize, but I'm curious what you're usually targeting with him. Are you usually just trying to remove a single target that's causing pain, or are you generally trying to maximize card advantage (3, 4, 5, for 1, etc)? I've never used him before, so I feel like I'm missing something. He seems rather limited, and very mana intensive.
* - Safe land acceleration is totally legit, by the way. I'm assuming you're also packing the land-elves route (ie: Wood Elves and friends). If not, they're amazing. On the budget version I sometimes play, I had one board state where I had Yeva, a Wood Elves, a leveled-up Joraga Treespeaker, and a Wirewood Symbiote. Every round I'd tap the Treespeaker and a forest, bounce the Wood Elves untapping the Treespeaker, and put another untapped Forest into play. Good times.
As for Seedborn Muse, I'm afraid I don't have any hard numbers. My gut feeling is that I'm more likely to win with the Muse than without but probably somewhere near half my wins either I never pull/fetch Muse or she is removed in some way I can't recover her. I do know my most recent win with Yeva, last week, was in a three player game and didn't involve the Muse. I don't remember the exact sequence, but I only saw one tutor and I needed it to fetch out a Timbermare to stay alive (there may have been a lol-huge the Mimeoplasm involved? I don't remember. Some lethal potential attack.). I'd flipped a Growing Rites of Itlimoc earlier and had one or two land untappers, so after the Timbermare tapped everyone down I was able to drop a Kamahl, Fist of Krosa at the end of the turn of the fellow before me and beat the other two players down on my turn.
I'll try to keep track of my games to get a better idea of the statistics on this thing.
But, yeah, you nailed me. If I was making a list of the "most vital creatures" in the deck, #1 would be Temur Sabertooth by a country mile. Seedborn Muse is second place, but it's closer to third than it is to first.
I think the disconnect might be partially related to the differences in acceleration strategy. With high-risk burst mana, the incremental advantage of Seedborn Muse seems less relevant, as I'm playing all the creatures I need in one end-of-turn phase right before my (hopefully) game-ending attack. With slower, steadier mana, I can see how playing creatures out over a number of turns or being worried about keeping response mana up is more vital.
I don't know if you have the ability to try out a high-risk, high-reward ramp strategy. Gaea's Cradle is insanely expensive, but it can work pretty well with just Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx and/or Growing Rites of Itlimoc. The untappers themselves and Karametra's Acolyte are pennies. Priest of Titania isn't free, but it's less than five bucks even after the Pauper-related spikes. I've moved away from Reap and Sow and Hour of Promise, but they're both pretty cheap. You could probably put together a pretty good package for under $20. Every now and then you'll run into a solid wall of creature hate and get no traction at all - but then, Yeva will always have an uphill battle against ultra-heavy creature hate. Most of the time, I think the oodles of mana you can produce will help to outrun/protect against the hate.
This sort of bleeds into your other question (about Polukranos, World Eater), so you'll have to forget my rambling response.
For your example, yes, eleven mana would produce five points of damage. I always remember the equation MANA=(DAMAGEx2)+1. And, yes, he does get the +1/+1 counters before the damage is dealt back to him, so he would be a 10/10 in that example. If the five damage was dealt to Thragtusk and Myojin of Night's Reach, they'd to ten damage back and kill him.
As for what I do with him, I look at Polukranos primarily as a way to deal with pesky creatures that don't need to attack. Red zone creatures are easy; they eat a Spore Frog or a Timbermare. Things like, say, Peacekeeper or Dawnstrider or Blazing Archon are more problematic. Ulvenwald Tracker can also deal with most of those creatures, but he can't be activated the same turn he's played.
Consider Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur. Most likely, you don't want him to get to his end step or the U/x player gets to draw a butt-load of cards (...or on your end step to strip you of your hand...). Fetching out a Ulvenwald Tracker doesn't solve the problem until your next upkeep step. Polukranos, on the other hand...well, he'll need a lot of mana, but by that stage of the game a high-risk strategy can probably make up for it. Four to play, eleven to monstrify, figure one to fetch with a Survival of the Fittest for 16 total. That's only two taps of a Itlimoc, Cradle of the Sun with eight creatures on the board.
Polukranos's second role is just a big beat stick. Not that great for red zone damage, but he loves fightin' stuff with the Tracker's help, or those sad occasions where the Greater Good needs him...
Ergh, this post has gotten far longer and more rambly than I intended. I'd better go to bed while I'm still ahead! I hope there was at least some coherence and value in it for you.
Cheers.
I’ve been a mono green player for a long time so I actually have almost all the cards from your list already, just missing a couple of the newer ones. Also, my group is great about supporting proxies while tweaking or otherwise testing decks, so really, everything is an option. If I like how something plays, I’ll buy it later.
After reading and absorbing all this, I’ve come to the conclusion that I’ve been seriously handcuffing Yeva by running so much sorcery speed junk. I just counted my current list... 7 enchantments, 5 artifacts, 15 sorceries, 4 instants, 38 lands, 1 planeswalker, 30 creatures. A significant majority is sorcery speed!! That’s kind of embarrassing. It’s probably not surprising that a majority of the wins were simply from Seedborn Muse powering out enough stuff to setup alpha strikes with Asceticism in play to keep them alive. Then dropping something like Beastmaster Ascension or Craterhoof to win. My deck has been very one dimensional.
I think I’m going to test out the high risk/reward mana package that you recommend. In fact, aside from a few minor changes for personal preference I’m going to try a close duplicate of your entire list and see how I like it. I’ll let you know how it goes. Thanks again for taking the time to share your knowledge and experiences!
I wish you all the best. And not just because now my reputation is staked on the deck's performance.
Also glad to hear that you're already invested in a lot of the green staples. I was shocked when I went in to update the budget section a couple weeks ago. At least Genesis Wave and Summoner's Pact have fallen in price, if nothing else has.
Let me know how things go!
I also updated the list to finally reflect that Strip Mine has replaced Reliquary Tower. There might be another minor change or two coming in the near future.
Yeva (88/92 foils)
Raff
Scarab
Rakdos
Wort ($50 budget, 94/97 foils)
Trostani
Still, I can see builds of Yeva where Goreclaw'd be absolutely brutal. I'm ordering a copy (as part of my "buy at least one of every interesting new green card" plan) and I may end up testing it out.
I have considered Vigor, but I'm afraid I think it's a little too niche to play in most high-budget Yeva decks. With the recent reprint, however, it may be worth consideration in some medium to low budget decks.
My main problem is that there are two things Vigor is good at: stopping damage-based removal (Blasphemous Act, Lightning Bolt, etc) and stopping aggro (by providing invincible blockers). In my build, those two areas are well covered by the graveyard recursion and self-bounce protection, just like for non-damage-based removal, and by TurboFrog against attacking decks. As such, Vigor mainly exists as a Big Dumb Green creature, one which isn't needed. I will probably add a blurb about it in the Utility section under "Budget/Meta" as I don't think it's entirely useless, and certainly in a Good Stuff build it could be quite handy, but I don't think it'll end up making the cut for a Yeva build dedicated to abusing her ability.
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In other news, as I was asked to track how often Seedborn Muse figures into my wins, I had two more of those this week. The first one, a 4-player game, didn't see a Muse at all before I was able to win (via Kamahl, Fist of Krosa). The second one I did flip a Muse off a Genesis Wave (cast for x=24 on T6; think that might be a record for the deck), but that was the same turn I won as the Wave also flipped a Craterhoof Behemoth.
Cheers, all.
As for the Seedborn Muse tracker, I had another win flipping her off a lucky Genesis Wave and won the next turn (while using Terastodon/Temur Sabertooth to wreck my opponents' mana bases so they couldn't fight back during the circuit). Seedborn Muse really helped. I should start keeping track of this:
I was able to play for the first time in about a month the other night.
The first game (against Meren of Clan Nel toth and Jhoira, Weatherlight Captain) was perfectly on game plan for Yeva. A T-1 Mana Crypt led into a Elvish Rejuvenator (finding a forest). A land drop on T-2 saw Yeva drop. T-3 dropped Beast Whisperer, a Crop Rotation for Gaea's Cradle, and Hope Tender. T-4 I dropped all sorts of creatures, cantripping off them, and T-5 Green Sun's Zenith into Craterhoof Behemoth for the win. It was close to a God-hand, plus some lucky topdecks, so I wouldn't draw too many lessons from it. No Seedborn Muse involved.
The second game (against Jhoira of the Ghitu, Etali, Primal Storm, and Karador, Ghost Chieftain) flew off the rails pretty early. Because I felt bad about the first game, I kept a hand I shouldn't have (all 4cc+, no ramp). I then compounded that with an emotional decision, rather than a rational one (in almost every game against OG Jhoira, I end up killing her before her first untap; I *should* have sat on Beast Within, but it just seemed too much of a shame to break the tradition). I never really got off the ground, especially after Etali stole my Terastodon and turned my lands into elephants, and eventually Jhoira won.
Updating the counter,
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
Also, many of the creatures the deck is looking for (Temur Sabertooth, Seedborn Muse, Craterhoof Behemoth, etc) are high-CC creatures. The investment of resources in mana with the high-risk, high-reward mana package makes their CC less relevant, but Yisan would have to untap five times before he could fetch out a Muse. The other tutors in the deck are either less conditional or faster or both; Yisa doesn't stand a chance in a straight up competition against Chord of Calling, for example.
It is true that any creature can eat removal; that's why Yeva's plan involves saving creatures from removal, either by bouncing them to hand or by reviving them from the graveyard. Unfortunately, either one of those plans resets Yisan, making it unlikely he will ever get out of the 1-2 mana cost area.
Yisan is an extremely powerful card in his own deck, which will have been optimized to best take advantage of his powerful recurring tutor through untap effects and a strict CC curve. Yeva is simply a very different deck, focused more on immediate board impact, control, and an overwhelming combat finish.
Now of course every opinion is subjective, and every deck is different. It is very possible to build a Yeva deck to take advantage of Yisan's unique abilities, but then you'd probably be better off just building a Yisan deck.