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Yep, it could have a place here too. It rewards me for doing what the deck wants to do. I think it would need contingency though; Elixir of Immortality, Reminisce, Learn from the Past etc etc. Things could take a turn for the crazy quite quickly.
Clearly trying to more finely manage the mill aspect of the deck at present. Sad to take Grimgrin out, but my sweet foil has probably got a space in a Mairsil build sometime soon. Could be a nice cage, same with fatestitcher. NP is kind of janky and stupid combos with Rooftop Storm, but otherwise is slightly average. Bone Dancer is just too conditional.
Adds wise, I'm not sure how the dredge will go - it definitely doesn't interact with Library of Leng as the cards are not discarded and they're part of am ability cost. It could work, but it may not. It could make a case for adding more dredge synergy (Narcomoeba? etc), but maybe not. I don't have the money for Crucible so that's entirely out. I have the same misgivings about Dreamscape, but it's worth a try, as the discard helps, and it ramps and colour fixes. I just wish there were more ways to get lands back from graveyards. Wonder will be great no doubt, and so will the blue draw spells. Forbid will either be awesome or underwhelming.
Also, some cards I don't know if you've considered but I think would be great for your deck: Kindred Dominance and Patriarch's Bidding. Having a black tribal means you can really get some mileage out of those cards.
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I have, although I do need to go through the deck physically again as I’m pretty sure there’s a couple of changes I’ve made that aren’t reflected here.
Bidding I would love but don’t have a spare copy of, not the money for. Dominance would be awesome here though.
Really just trimming the fat on the list at present. Lower CMCs, better reanimation, draw filter, and instant speed removal. Pretty happy with all changes.
I've got my eye on a few slots that aren't pulling weight so much, and replacing with better value. Rite and Reflection are essentially here to cause a Zombie Tsunami or to cause a massive life haemorrhage with some of the zombie lord bleeders - each of them have around a dozen viable targets that can give me reasonable advantage, so they make sense.
Hopefully this will help. Extra draw seems to be really crucial here. The tribe isn't really known for it, and I was 1v1ing against an early build of Jhoira, Weatherlight Captain (which I can report, is the tits - really strong and lots of fun) so I just ran out of steam and took a long time to get anywhere. These might just help me fill the yard quicker, hit more land drops, and get what I need in hand.
What do you think of Josu Vess, Lich Knight? The idea of a zombie creature based Army of the Damned that you can repeatedly cast off of G&G sounds kind of fun. The tokens he makes are even zombies which is cool. When I played my list I did play it a little more big mana than yours seems to be though so I can see if you don't like the cost to kick him.
I do like the idea of him. I even pulled him from a box Friday night. My other pulls were so good by comparison to my wife’s that I ended giving him up to her. I’d still like a copy here, but you’re right, there’s not a lot of big mana here. A lot of that comes down to cost restriction - I have it both/coffers for one deck, how many others can justify it? I don’t have that sort of money, not enough for mana crypts, ancient tombs, or any of those expensive staples. It’s probably past t of why the draw has been such a crucial point - I need it for land drops and crucial creatures. If you have any suggestions I’d be glad to hear them.
How has Brainstorm been doing for you? Without a ton of topdeck manipulation, maybe miracles or a draw-go that's digging for answers, I don't see it pulling a ton of weight in your deck. I got to play Josu during this prerelease weekend and he's fantastic. You can consider him a 9-drop, at the top of your curve, where you play him naturally on t9, or you can ramp into him and cast it earlier with either Rooftop Storm or Cabal Coffers. Assuming he will die, you can cast him for his regular cost early, and then recast him using G&G's ability later.
In terms of big mana, you could consider adding in Crypt Ghast, he's not too expensive (under $4 USD currently). 15 of your lands are already swamps, and then it goes bonkers with urborg in play.
How has Brainstorm been doing for you? Without a ton of topdeck manipulation, maybe miracles or a draw-go that's digging for answers, I don't see it pulling a ton of weight in your deck. I got to play Josu during this prerelease weekend and he's fantastic. You can consider him a 9-drop, at the top of your curve, where you play him naturally on t9, or you can ramp into him and cast it earlier with either Rooftop Storm or Cabal Coffers. Assuming he will die, you can cast him for his regular cost early, and then recast him using G&G's ability later.
In terms of big mana, you could consider adding in Crypt Ghast, he's not too expensive (under $4 USD currently). 15 of your lands are already swamps, and then it goes bonkers with urborg in play.
I mean I've only just added it. Ideally I'd prefer topdeck manipulation, but I'm really stuck for options that are already in my folder and boxes so I've gone for big draw and some pseudo-scry effects. I have a spare Thassa, God of the Sea that could slot in maybe. I feel like its maybe not the best place for Thassa though. Crypt Ghast I have a copy of, so I should really add it. Even the extort becomes relevant once you've got Rooftop Storm in play.
The lich was kind of a do nothing card, regardless of the indestructible. And I don't run enough rocks to make him work. Josu should be pretty decent, and the Stronghold is decent big mana.
In:
Thassa, God of the Sea
Grypt Ghast
Josu Vess, Lich Knight
Cabal Stronghold
Out:
Counterspell
Brainstorm
Phylactery Lich
Island
DISCLAIMER: I understand from your prior posts that you have budget concerns, but my primary goal here is to point out that big mana is one of those things that I feel you either have to go all in on, both monetarily and in terms of building around it, or accept that it's just going to hold you back.
Big Mana
I think your deck is trying to be too many different things at once with these recent changes. The fact of the matter is that big mana cards are best suited to monocolor strategies, with some two-color decks getting away with it, usually only if they strictly splashing that second color. Since there is a pretty rough split between your 13 Swamps and 11 Islands, I'd be hard pressed to call your manabase anywhere near splash level. This doesn't even take into consideration that there is no Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth in your updated decklist, which I feel is absolutely mandatory for the splash variants trying to use big mana sources anyway.
To put this into perspective with some numbers, and I apologize for this ahead of time if I am overstepping my bounds for what is suppose to be a casual format but I feel these numbers best orchestrate my point because you are on a budget, Cabal Coffers is one of the strongest big mana options for black, but your manabase is simply too slow to pull enough value out of it. At the bare minimum, it takes 4 land drops (itself and 3 Swamps) to make Cabal Coffers break even and that assumes all of those land drops had the Swamp subtype. If even one of those land drops doesn't have it, or you don't have Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth,Cabal Coffers slows beyond that. Only 15 of your land have that subtype, of the 37 you run. The mathematics are against you that you can even generate that much utility of the single strongest big mana card at black's disposal with your given manabase.
This leads me into the addition of Cabal Stronghold, which, irrefutably, is going to be even harder for your manabase to pull off. Unlike Cabal Coffers, Stronghold takes 5 land drops (itself and 4 Swamps) to work and that card only takes the basic Swamps into consideration, which disqualifies Watery Grave and Sunken Hollow as being recognized for the effect. Realistically, you might be able to get away with this card if you could get Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth into play because of your 11 Islands still having the Basic super-type, but without it, it's a strictly worse option than Cabal Coffers, a card that you already lack the manabase for.
Crypt Ghast isn't really going to correct this problem either and the same goes for it's other alternatives. Again, you only have 15 of 37 lands that will even qualify for the doubling effect. I cannot speak for your playgroup, but in my own, the maximum amount of turns that I encounter in an EDH game is about 12 per player. Once I've crunched the numbers, I end up with anywhere from 4 (low-end) to 8 (really optimistic high-end) land drops beyond the 3 you should have in your starting hand, meaning anywhere from 7 to 11 lands are available to you in a given game and only about 40% of all the lands at your disposal have the Swamp subtype. Mathematically, you are likely to end up with anywhere from 3 to 5 Swamps in a given game, assuming you are drawing only 1 card per turn (I use this metric as it's the standard among all decks, obviously these numbers will actually vary between decks based upon tutors, draw power, effectiveness of draw power, etc). In this scenario, Cabal Coffers is likely to consistently break even, maybe generate at extra B or BB on it's own, and Cabal Stronghold is going to consistently have the same function as a random Wastes in your deck. Crypt Ghast might be able to generate some power for you, but you are not going to get the consistent, reliable value out of it that a deck running 22+ Swamps is going to get. Simply put, these cards are optimal for a different manabase.
If you insist upon big mana, Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx, is likely to be the most powerful option you could possibly play in your existing deck given the significant amount of B that appears in the various costs of your permanents. It's the only option that I can think of that is dependent upon the costs of your permanents, which are largely black, rather than being dependent on having a finely-turned manabase.
Josu Vess
Finally, all of this brings me to Josu Vess, Lich Knight. This card is an awesome army-in-a-can beast, but on it's own, it's a 4/5 beatstick with menace and this is only good in a 1v1, 20-life format. This is much like Tarmogoyf where it's a creature that, in it's own right, is great in the regular formats, but total garbage in the multiplayer scene. What Josu Vess has over the Goyf is that kicker ability, which has the potential to make him a one cast swarm in Zombie tribal builds but the cost is pretty steep. Without access to big mana, I don't foresee him being anything more than another do-nothing card. There are plenty of other options I'd rather be dropping for that 4CC.
If you want access to Josu Vess, I feel that you would actually be better off making Josu Vess your commander and going all in on monoblack to access big mana. I've already swapped from Gisa and Geralf because their effect is already easy enough to recreate in black by itself (Phyrexian Reclamation, Unholy Grotto, Volrath's Stronghold, Oversold Cemetery, etc). This is an important thing to keep in mind because once you've got your big mana online, you can get an absurd amount of tribal value out of casting Josu Vess, Lich Knight ad nauseum. Putting him into the Commander slot effectively eliminates the possibility of your opponents successfully exiling him and between the various cards already mentioned that exist within monoblack, you can effectively eliminate having to pay the commander tax as you can always just toss him into the graveyard and then cast from the hand. He's one of the few commander's you really don't need to protect as your value was generated from just casting him. Gisa and Geralf is completely unnecessary to pulling those types of interactions off.
It is not budget by any means but the high fetchland count and 4 fetchable dual lands that work with Coffers. I totally understand that not everyone can field a landbase like this but its also worth pointing out that you don't have to go deep on your landbase to run big mana. Things like Thran Dynamo and other affordable mana rocks can also get you there without breaking the bank. I do think that the Cabal Coffers type plans do kind of rely on a good landbase that is probably going to have to be intentionally tilted in a way to make it profitable.
I guess what I am saying is that I kind of agree that a split landbase in a balanced way is not really how you want to pull off things like coffers here. But I am also not convinced that you could not go big mana through means of mana stones and how you build without breaking the bank.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Both valid points. I've thought the deck over a little recently in terms of revamping it, adjusting commanders and so forth. For the time being at least, I'm happy enough to stick with G&G. Josu is tempting to run as a general, but a big mana mono-coloured landbase isn't any cheaper, so I don't see a good reason to switch otherwise.
I could quite easily drop the island count here, especially considering as time goes on more of the additions are splashing black more than blue. Both of these last posts mention a damn pricey landbase, and that's just something I can't afford. I can probably, over time, add more pseudo-duals, like Fetid Pools, but Nykthos is pretty hard to find these days, let alone afford as well as fetches.
It is not budget by any means but the high fetchland count and 4 fetchable dual lands that work with Coffers. I totally understand that not everyone can field a landbase like this but its also worth pointing out that you don't have to go deep on your landbase to run big mana. Things like Thran Dynamo and other affordable mana rocks can also get you there without breaking the bank. I do think that the Cabal Coffers type plans do kind of rely on a good landbase that is probably going to have to be intentionally tilted in a way to make it profitable.
I guess what I am saying is that I kind of agree that a split landbase in a balanced way is not really how you want to pull off things like coffers here. But I am also not convinced that you could not go big mana through means of mana stones and how you build without breaking the bank.
This all seems like reasonable advice. I can definitely boost the rocks count, and I see no reason to stick with an even split in manabase, given the skew towards black.
I concur with ISBPathfinder. When I said big mana in my earlier post, I meant traditional things like the items that were already mentioned: Cabal Coffers, Cabal Stronghold, Extraplanar Lens, Caged Sun, etc. You only need one of these things to go live to generate bonkers levels of mana late-game, but you also need the manabase to make them work.
You could effectively do the same thing, albeit slower, with tons of mana rocks. Talisman of Dominance, Dimir Signet, Mind Stone, Thran Dynamo, and even Gilded Lotus are pretty affordable. I'd include some of them anyway just by virtue of their ramp power, especially since you are kind of light on cards that allow you to swap between tapping for U or B at a moment's notice. I see lots of BB and UU, as well as one one card with BBB, in your mana costs. Talisman of Dominance and Dimir Signet would like increase your consistency in getting those things out.
You can keep the Cabal Coffers in there. As I said in my earlier post, the most consistent outcome I came across in the numbers was you were breaking even when using it. A heavier skew towards black in your manabase would make it better, but you also have to beware that you have a not insignificant amount of UU in your mana costs and not many lands that tap for either U or B. The more you skew your manabase in that direction, without proper dual lands, the less consistent those UU costs will become. However, Cabal Stronghold 100% needs to go, preferably for Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx. I'm probably saying the obvious too, but if you intend to sink anymore significant money into your manabase, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth needs to be at the top of your list.
Both valid points. I've thought the deck over a little recently in terms of revamping it, adjusting commanders and so forth. For the time being at least, I'm happy enough to stick with G&G. Josu is tempting to run as a general, but a big mana mono-coloured landbase isn't any cheaper, so I don't see a good reason to switch otherwise.
It's ironic that we've reached a point in MTG where an optimized version of a monocolor deck can compete with a tricked out dual-color manabase in terms of price. As I said, I know it's far from cheap and I really wouldn't advise making an attempt unless you have the resources to go all in on.
I concur with ISBPathfinder. When I said big mana in my earlier post, I meant traditional things like the items that were already mentioned: Cabal Coffers, Cabal Stronghold, Extraplanar Lens, Caged Sun, etc. You only need one of these things to go live to generate bonkers levels of mana late-game, but you also need the manabase to make them work.
You could effectively do the same thing, albeit slower, with tons of mana rocks. Talisman of Dominance, Dimir Signet, Mind Stone, Thran Dynamo, and even Gilded Lotus are pretty affordable. I'd include some of them anyway just by virtue of their ramp power, especially since you are kind of light on cards that allow you to swap between tapping for U or B at a moment's notice. I see lots of BB and UU, as well as one one card with BBB, in your mana costs. Talisman of Dominance and Dimir Signet would like increase your consistency in getting those things out.
I don't disagree, either. End of the day, I am a little hamstrung by my wallet. Most of the improvements I make I try to do via trades from other decks or slimming the binder down, but I am fairly close to the sort of spot where most of what's in the folder is jank, and the decks I have I'm not looking to pull apart any time soon. Having said that, there are definitely some things I can do to improve here. I've got a reasonable collection of rocks around, could probably come up with some colour fixing to improve things, and strip back some of the cuter inclusions on the list. There's definitely no reason not to strip back some of the islands here and run a swamp heavy list, either.
You can keep the Cabal Coffers in there. As I said in my earlier post, the most consistent outcome I came across in the numbers was you were breaking even when using it. However, Cabal Stronghold needs to go, preferably for Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx. I'm probably saying the obvious too, but if you intend to sink anymore money into your manabase, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth needs to be at the top of your list.
Oh yeah, it's an obvious inclusion. Blanket of Night is passable for now, but the next time I have some spare cash to splash on my lists, Urborg is on the list. I have a spare Thespian's Stage I've been looking for a place for, too. It could fit nicely here, and I also have a Volrath's Stronghold in another list that doesn't fit all that well. I could see using it here to some extent. Nykthos I can keep an eye out for, but there really aren't many copies kicking around, so I don't know if I'm likely to pick up a copy any time soon.
So, yeah. I had an Urborg, in Chainer. These guys need it more, for now, as Cabal Stronghold is more useful in mono black anyway. I intend to eventually replace the Urborg for Chainer, but there's no rush. Otherwise, this update is really just rebalancing the manabase. There's more changes coming as soon as mail day comes around - that can take some time when you live in the antipodes. I intend to track down more lands in the 'dual' style, such as Fetid Pools - but I can't foresee being able to manage getting fetches in here. Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx I will work on. It's hard to actually find these days, and if I were to buy one for every deck I could use a copy in, I'd have close to 14 copies.
This is valuable information. I'd forgotten about the panoramas. I've yet to playtest these changes, but feel a little more comfortable with them than previous. As I say, there's more to come, but that's all going to be spell-based rather than manabase-based.
It's very broken. I'm considering using it in my Sidisi, Brood Tyrant and The Locust God decks.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
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In:
Kindred Discovery - we all know how nuts this is going to be. Imagine it with Tombstone Stairwell!
Oversold Cemetery - this was sitting in a folder doing nothing, why not? It's a way to get Gisa & Geralf back, so it's worth seeing if it will work.
Out:
Twisted Abomination
Ill-Gotten Gains
In:
Insidious Will
Out:
Grave Scrabbler
One of the weaker of the tribe. The madness ability is fun, but the chances of it seeing use is too slim.
1 Graf Harvest
2 Swiftfoot Boots
5 River Kelpie
6 Null Profusion
1 Epiphany at the Drownyard
4 Fortune's Favor
2 Oversold Cemetery
4 Necrotic Ooze
Pretty happy with these changes in general, and excited to playtest them.
3 Forbid
4 Wonder
3 Forbidden Alchemy
3 Compulsive Research
2 Dreamscape Artist
3 Stinkweed Imp
1 Dakmor Salvage
5 Final Reward
3 Bone Dancer
4 Fatestitcher
1 Codex Shredder
6 Null Profusion
5 Grimgrin, Corpse-Born
1 Swamp
Clearly trying to more finely manage the mill aspect of the deck at present. Sad to take Grimgrin out, but my sweet foil has probably got a space in a Mairsil build sometime soon. Could be a nice cage, same with fatestitcher. NP is kind of janky and stupid combos with Rooftop Storm, but otherwise is slightly average. Bone Dancer is just too conditional.
Adds wise, I'm not sure how the dredge will go - it definitely doesn't interact with Library of Leng as the cards are not discarded and they're part of am ability cost. It could work, but it may not. It could make a case for adding more dredge synergy (Narcomoeba? etc), but maybe not. I don't have the money for Crucible so that's entirely out. I have the same misgivings about Dreamscape, but it's worth a try, as the discard helps, and it ramps and colour fixes. I just wish there were more ways to get lands back from graveyards. Wonder will be great no doubt, and so will the blue draw spells. Forbid will either be awesome or underwhelming.
I've got question marks over a couple of cards still: Nightscape Familiar, Silumgar's Command, Geralf's Masterpiece, Ever After. Ideally I'd love to swap out Nightscape for Noxious Ghoul but I don't have a copy; The command could be Cyclonic Rift easily enough; Vengeful Dead would be nice, and I have a copy of Liliana, Heretical Healer in my chainer build that really doesn't need to be there. We'll see how things play out.
Also, some cards I don't know if you've considered but I think would be great for your deck:
Kindred Dominance and Patriarch's Bidding. Having a black tribal means you can really get some mileage out of those cards.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
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Bidding I would love but don’t have a spare copy of, not the money for. Dominance would be awesome here though.
In:
Withered Wretch
Liliana, Heretical Healer
Silence the Believers
Geier Reach Sanitarium
Out:
Swamp
Ever After
Twisted Abomination
From under the Floorboards
Really just trimming the fat on the list at present. Lower CMCs, better reanimation, draw filter, and instant speed removal. Pretty happy with all changes.
In:
Reliquary Tower
Temple of the False God
Rite of Replication
Infinite Reflection
Counterspell
Out:
2 Swamp
Stinkweed Imp
Nightscape Familiar
Geralf's Masterpiece
I've got my eye on a few slots that aren't pulling weight so much, and replacing with better value. Rite and Reflection are essentially here to cause a Zombie Tsunami or to cause a massive life haemorrhage with some of the zombie lord bleeders - each of them have around a dozen viable targets that can give me reasonable advantage, so they make sense.
In:
Brainstorm
Call to the Kindred
Grimgrin, Corpse-Born - I have a sweet foil which wants to be played.
Dimir Machinations
Distant Melody
Out:
Compulsive Research
Fabricate
Silumgar's Command
Scour From Existence
Dreamscape Artist
Hopefully this will help. Extra draw seems to be really crucial here. The tribe isn't really known for it, and I was 1v1ing against an early build of Jhoira, Weatherlight Captain (which I can report, is the tits - really strong and lots of fun) so I just ran out of steam and took a long time to get anywhere. These might just help me fill the yard quicker, hit more land drops, and get what I need in hand.
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[Modern] Allies
In terms of big mana, you could consider adding in Crypt Ghast, he's not too expensive (under $4 USD currently). 15 of your lands are already swamps, and then it goes bonkers with urborg in play.
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Modern:
Melira PodRIP 1/19/15GWHatebearsI mean I've only just added it. Ideally I'd prefer topdeck manipulation, but I'm really stuck for options that are already in my folder and boxes so I've gone for big draw and some pseudo-scry effects. I have a spare Thassa, God of the Sea that could slot in maybe. I feel like its maybe not the best place for Thassa though. Crypt Ghast I have a copy of, so I should really add it. Even the extort becomes relevant once you've got Rooftop Storm in play.
In:
Thassa, God of the Sea
Grypt Ghast
Out:
Counterspell
Brainstorm
Topdeck manipulation is nice, and I'm sure the unblockable will have its uses. CG is big mana, which this deck can definitely use.
In:
Josu Vess, Lich Knight
Cabal Stronghold
Out:
Phylactery Lich
Island
The lich was kind of a do nothing card, regardless of the indestructible. And I don't run enough rocks to make him work. Josu should be pretty decent, and the Stronghold is decent big mana.
DISCLAIMER: I understand from your prior posts that you have budget concerns, but my primary goal here is to point out that big mana is one of those things that I feel you either have to go all in on, both monetarily and in terms of building around it, or accept that it's just going to hold you back.
Big Mana
I think your deck is trying to be too many different things at once with these recent changes. The fact of the matter is that big mana cards are best suited to monocolor strategies, with some two-color decks getting away with it, usually only if they strictly splashing that second color. Since there is a pretty rough split between your 13 Swamps and 11 Islands, I'd be hard pressed to call your manabase anywhere near splash level. This doesn't even take into consideration that there is no Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth in your updated decklist, which I feel is absolutely mandatory for the splash variants trying to use big mana sources anyway.
To put this into perspective with some numbers, and I apologize for this ahead of time if I am overstepping my bounds for what is suppose to be a casual format but I feel these numbers best orchestrate my point because you are on a budget, Cabal Coffers is one of the strongest big mana options for black, but your manabase is simply too slow to pull enough value out of it. At the bare minimum, it takes 4 land drops (itself and 3 Swamps) to make Cabal Coffers break even and that assumes all of those land drops had the Swamp subtype. If even one of those land drops doesn't have it, or you don't have Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Cabal Coffers slows beyond that. Only 15 of your land have that subtype, of the 37 you run. The mathematics are against you that you can even generate that much utility of the single strongest big mana card at black's disposal with your given manabase.
This leads me into the addition of Cabal Stronghold, which, irrefutably, is going to be even harder for your manabase to pull off. Unlike Cabal Coffers, Stronghold takes 5 land drops (itself and 4 Swamps) to work and that card only takes the basic Swamps into consideration, which disqualifies Watery Grave and Sunken Hollow as being recognized for the effect. Realistically, you might be able to get away with this card if you could get Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth into play because of your 11 Islands still having the Basic super-type, but without it, it's a strictly worse option than Cabal Coffers, a card that you already lack the manabase for.
Crypt Ghast isn't really going to correct this problem either and the same goes for it's other alternatives. Again, you only have 15 of 37 lands that will even qualify for the doubling effect. I cannot speak for your playgroup, but in my own, the maximum amount of turns that I encounter in an EDH game is about 12 per player. Once I've crunched the numbers, I end up with anywhere from 4 (low-end) to 8 (really optimistic high-end) land drops beyond the 3 you should have in your starting hand, meaning anywhere from 7 to 11 lands are available to you in a given game and only about 40% of all the lands at your disposal have the Swamp subtype. Mathematically, you are likely to end up with anywhere from 3 to 5 Swamps in a given game, assuming you are drawing only 1 card per turn (I use this metric as it's the standard among all decks, obviously these numbers will actually vary between decks based upon tutors, draw power, effectiveness of draw power, etc). In this scenario, Cabal Coffers is likely to consistently break even, maybe generate at extra B or BB on it's own, and Cabal Stronghold is going to consistently have the same function as a random Wastes in your deck. Crypt Ghast might be able to generate some power for you, but you are not going to get the consistent, reliable value out of it that a deck running 22+ Swamps is going to get. Simply put, these cards are optimal for a different manabase.
If you insist upon big mana, Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx, is likely to be the most powerful option you could possibly play in your existing deck given the significant amount of B that appears in the various costs of your permanents. It's the only option that I can think of that is dependent upon the costs of your permanents, which are largely black, rather than being dependent on having a finely-turned manabase.
Josu Vess
Finally, all of this brings me to Josu Vess, Lich Knight. This card is an awesome army-in-a-can beast, but on it's own, it's a 4/5 beatstick with menace and this is only good in a 1v1, 20-life format. This is much like Tarmogoyf where it's a creature that, in it's own right, is great in the regular formats, but total garbage in the multiplayer scene. What Josu Vess has over the Goyf is that kicker ability, which has the potential to make him a one cast swarm in Zombie tribal builds but the cost is pretty steep. Without access to big mana, I don't foresee him being anything more than another do-nothing card. There are plenty of other options I'd rather be dropping for that 4CC.
If you want access to Josu Vess, I feel that you would actually be better off making Josu Vess your commander and going all in on monoblack to access big mana. I've already swapped from Gisa and Geralf because their effect is already easy enough to recreate in black by itself (Phyrexian Reclamation, Unholy Grotto, Volrath's Stronghold, Oversold Cemetery, etc). This is an important thing to keep in mind because once you've got your big mana online, you can get an absurd amount of tribal value out of casting Josu Vess, Lich Knight ad nauseum. Putting him into the Commander slot effectively eliminates the possibility of your opponents successfully exiling him and between the various cards already mentioned that exist within monoblack, you can effectively eliminate having to pay the commander tax as you can always just toss him into the graveyard and then cast from the hand. He's one of the few commander's you really don't need to protect as your value was generated from just casting him. Gisa and Geralf is completely unnecessary to pulling those types of interactions off.
While I miss access to the insane tribal engine that is Kindred Discovery, as well as counterspells like Counterspell, Mana Drain, Force of Will, and Swan Song, my biggest problem with tribal decks is their susceptibility to mass removal between 3 opponents, which is more or less a guarantee at some point. It is much simpler to recover from a stray Wrath of God, Damnation, Toxic Deluge, etc with a kicked Josu Vess that throws 20 power onto the board than it is to rebound your board presence through Gisa and Geralf. Your wallet just won't be better off because Gauntlet of Power, Extraplanar Lens, Nirkana Revenant, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Volrath's Stronghold, Phyrexian Tower, etc., are not cheap.
It is not budget by any means but the high fetchland count and 4 fetchable dual lands that work with Coffers. I totally understand that not everyone can field a landbase like this but its also worth pointing out that you don't have to go deep on your landbase to run big mana. Things like Thran Dynamo and other affordable mana rocks can also get you there without breaking the bank. I do think that the Cabal Coffers type plans do kind of rely on a good landbase that is probably going to have to be intentionally tilted in a way to make it profitable.
I guess what I am saying is that I kind of agree that a split landbase in a balanced way is not really how you want to pull off things like coffers here. But I am also not convinced that you could not go big mana through means of mana stones and how you build without breaking the bank.
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[Modern] Allies
I could quite easily drop the island count here, especially considering as time goes on more of the additions are splashing black more than blue. Both of these last posts mention a damn pricey landbase, and that's just something I can't afford. I can probably, over time, add more pseudo-duals, like Fetid Pools, but Nykthos is pretty hard to find these days, let alone afford as well as fetches.
This all seems like reasonable advice. I can definitely boost the rocks count, and I see no reason to stick with an even split in manabase, given the skew towards black.
You could effectively do the same thing, albeit slower, with tons of mana rocks. Talisman of Dominance, Dimir Signet, Mind Stone, Thran Dynamo, and even Gilded Lotus are pretty affordable. I'd include some of them anyway just by virtue of their ramp power, especially since you are kind of light on cards that allow you to swap between tapping for U or B at a moment's notice. I see lots of BB and UU, as well as one one card with BBB, in your mana costs. Talisman of Dominance and Dimir Signet would like increase your consistency in getting those things out.
You can keep the Cabal Coffers in there. As I said in my earlier post, the most consistent outcome I came across in the numbers was you were breaking even when using it. A heavier skew towards black in your manabase would make it better, but you also have to beware that you have a not insignificant amount of UU in your mana costs and not many lands that tap for either U or B. The more you skew your manabase in that direction, without proper dual lands, the less consistent those UU costs will become. However, Cabal Stronghold 100% needs to go, preferably for Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx. I'm probably saying the obvious too, but if you intend to sink anymore significant money into your manabase, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth needs to be at the top of your list.
It's ironic that we've reached a point in MTG where an optimized version of a monocolor deck can compete with a tricked out dual-color manabase in terms of price. As I said, I know it's far from cheap and I really wouldn't advise making an attempt unless you have the resources to go all in on.
I don't disagree, either. End of the day, I am a little hamstrung by my wallet. Most of the improvements I make I try to do via trades from other decks or slimming the binder down, but I am fairly close to the sort of spot where most of what's in the folder is jank, and the decks I have I'm not looking to pull apart any time soon. Having said that, there are definitely some things I can do to improve here. I've got a reasonable collection of rocks around, could probably come up with some colour fixing to improve things, and strip back some of the cuter inclusions on the list. There's definitely no reason not to strip back some of the islands here and run a swamp heavy list, either.
Oh yeah, it's an obvious inclusion. Blanket of Night is passable for now, but the next time I have some spare cash to splash on my lists, Urborg is on the list. I have a spare Thespian's Stage I've been looking for a place for, too. It could fit nicely here, and I also have a Volrath's Stronghold in another list that doesn't fit all that well. I could see using it here to some extent. Nykthos I can keep an eye out for, but there really aren't many copies kicking around, so I don't know if I'm likely to pick up a copy any time soon.
4 Swamp
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Dismal Backwater
1 Dimir Guildgate
1 Expedition Map
1 Mind Stone
6 Island
1 Temple of the False God
1 Dakmor Salvage
1 Drownyard Temple
1 Insidious Will
1 Dimir Machinations
So, yeah. I had an Urborg, in Chainer. These guys need it more, for now, as Cabal Stronghold is more useful in mono black anyway. I intend to eventually replace the Urborg for Chainer, but there's no rush. Otherwise, this update is really just rebalancing the manabase. There's more changes coming as soon as mail day comes around - that can take some time when you live in the antipodes. I intend to track down more lands in the 'dual' style, such as Fetid Pools - but I can't foresee being able to manage getting fetches in here. Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx I will work on. It's hard to actually find these days, and if I were to buy one for every deck I could use a copy in, I'd have close to 14 copies.
Bant Panorama, Esper Panorama, Grixis Panorama, Jund Panorama, Naya Panorama and the older cycle of Bad River, Flood Plain, and Rocky Tar Pit can all fetch dual lands. It might not seem huge but I could see some of these coming in over things like Evolving Wilds (as the lands still enter tapped but they cant get duals. The Panoramas have the advantage as well of being able to tap for mana the turn they are played if you don't want to fetch.
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This is valuable information. I'd forgotten about the panoramas. I've yet to playtest these changes, but feel a little more comfortable with them than previous. As I say, there's more to come, but that's all going to be spell-based rather than manabase-based.