It is rare that I have too many creatures just sticking around doing nothing. Even the smaller land ramp creatures just end up dying due to blocking early (since I want them in the grave anyway) and I wrath often enough to keep my opponents off creatures. Now, the Birds and Shaman won't die as easily (hopefully) so maybe they can push my into wanting Township but I will have to see what happens.
Miren is high on the cost for sure, but it is a sac outlet and gains me a ton of life over the course of a game. Generally, life gain can be valued too highly but this and Diamond Valley have won me games I would not have otherwise won. Which is part of the reason I need a high number of lands.
Yeah, I can see the Cartographer making an exit. It was included due to being able to grab duals but 4 mana is a lot. I have actually considered cutting Solemn for being 4 mana too, but the card draw is enough to keep it around (for now). I will try swapping out the Cartographer for a dork.
Just a note and this is my personal opinion only, but Unexpectedly Absent is always something I play before Unmaking - the flexibility to protect your own stuff and not having to pay life, and potentially really shutting someone out by screwing with their topdeck tutors, etc., is too much of an advantage imho.
That might be true, but I really sometimes want something gone forever; not just temporarily. I can definitely see the merits of the card though. I am hoping to get a game or two in with this deck tomorrow so I can see if any of the other added removal isn't doing what I want. I am potentially leaning towards Crush Contraband (since it hits only Artifacts and Enchantments) or Generous Gift as ones that I would be willing to cut. The other possibility that I can see is adding in Absent as an additional removal spell rather than replacing something that already exists. I don't want to go too heavy on the non-creature based removal, but I am not sure where that line ends up being.
It's hard to go too heavy in karador because you've got such ridiculously efficient creature based removal of stuff. But I think UA is much better than Crush Contraband just period. Generous Gift hits lands which are problems (e.g. forcing someone to use their Scavenger grounds early, etc.) so I like that one better
Usually you need to run just enough to be able to pop stuff like Torpor orb, but you also usually have Pridemage or Catterpillar to deal with that, so it's a balancing act. Mainly Humility is the big stick you have to have spells for.
The first 2 games were against Tuvasa, new Vaevictus, and Animar. This deck pairs up very poorly against Animar and it showed. I played 2 games against it because I wanted to beat the deck, but I was unsuccessful.
The first game was pretty bad in that I had basically no ramp and almost no removal. The only removal I ever got to was Toxic Deluge but Animar countered it. From there, I did basically nothing. My lands were not cooperating, I was missing my second green source for Eternal Witness to get back Toxic Deluge, and a host of other issues. I basically just rolled over and died.
The second game was very similar to the first except I did get some ramp. Not a lot though and still I never saw any removal. I never saw any cards I added except Beast Within which did kill Animar for me, but it was not nearly enough. At one point, Vaevictus blew up a land of mine which set me way back.
Overall, these 2 games illustrated what happens when the deck just doesn't work (the third game did too but for a different reason). Even though Animar is exceptionally tough to deal with against this deck, I was really disappointed in how poorly these games went.
The third game went better, but not by a lot. In this one, I played against Nahiri and The Ur-Dragon. Unfortunately, in this case, I didn't draw much beyond ramp. I ended up with Wood Elves, Burnished Hart, and Sakura-Tribe Elder. Early on I looped Burnished Hart with Volrath's Stronghold a few times to get rid of my lands and I still ended up drawing lands later on. I did have a Remorseful Cleric that allowed me to block and a Ravenous Chupacabra that killed a few things. Necrotic Sliver was a big one in a couple situations but I never got anything "big". In the end, I ended up winning simply because Nahiri and Dragons kept going after one another and Dragons was down to 1 life when they cast an Earthquake for 4 to kill the board and kill themselves. I top decked a Chainer and reanimated Gray Merchant and Necrotic Sliver to have Nahiri lose 6 life which was exactly enough to kill them.
All in all, this was pretty disappointing to see. I think I may end up needing to bite the bullet and include a Survival of the Fittest to help make the deck more consistent. In the short term (since a foil Survival is expensive) I may try out Fauna Shaman. It is a reasonable compromise I think and might be worth trying out.
Hmm, do you think something like a Sylvan Library or Skullclamp might be a better stopgap than Fauna Shaman? Shaman is super slow and has to untap. Not that it's not good in this deck, it surely is, but I think you may want more ways to see more cards rather than more ways to get specific cards.
You might even get some mileage out of a couple cantrip creatures to smooth stuff out. I always really liked Wall of Blossoms in my buddy's karador deck.
Possibly an Enlightened Tutor to get Greater Good would be better than any of those though. And good once you get a Survival too
Sylvan Library is the most attractive out of those options and one I used to have. It may have been a mistake to cut it at one point. I still like the idea of Fauna Shaman so I will still try to slot it in. If it really doesn't do enough, I will just have to play one of my non-foil Survivals (the horror! )
I have thought about things like Wall of Blossoms and Wall of Omens before and decided against them. It might be worthwhile to try them out as they cantrip and can get down some early blocking. Thinking back to my game last night, I would have loved to have one of them I could have kept casting off Karador (though I never got to one of my freaking sac outlets which was disappointing as well). In honesty, I much prefer those over Skullclamp because a) Clamp has a huge target on it, and b) it requires a couple pieces to get cards out of since very few of my creatures have 1 toughness. I count 9 that I would actually want to Clamp which I don't think is enough to warrant it on its own.
E. Tutor isn't the worst option since it gets a variety of things (sac outlet, draw, grave hate, ramp, board wipe). I might just need to add one because those cards can be crucial. I am going to hold off for now but I might think on it for later. I am already having a tough enough time coming up with cuts.
So, I think adding in Sylvan Library, Fauna Shaman (maybe turned into Survival later), and the two Walls are something worth trying. In their place, it seems that cutting a land (back to 40) can be fine. This will just be a Plains. And then I already wasn't really enamored with Nissa, so she can go for now. I don't know what else I want to get rid of. I have always thought 39 lands was right but I have had so many mana issues lately so I bumped it to 40. Maybe 39 is still right and I just had a string of bad luck which means cutting another Plains. And, of course, every time I look at my list, I dislike BoP and Deathrite but I want to give them a fair shake so I can't cut them yet. And I want to try both Walls. I will hopefully find something before I play the deck again next week.
If you don't wind up not liking deathrite and BoP you might want to try Weathered Wayfarer in the BOP slot. Your deck doesn't go crazy with the land ramp and you have a huge land package of important stuff like Phyrexian Tower. So it kind of fixes two problems, one being land drops (forever as long as you're behind or have a fetchland you can use to put you behind) and also gets you sac outlets.
I know I tend to suggest tutors a lot so obviously you have to be cautious not to overdo it But Wayfarer has never been anything but a damn rockstar for me in any deck that isn't wanting to play tons of land ramp.
I tried Wayfarer in my Boros deck and didn't really like it, but that was more because I tended to ramp pretty hard with Sword of the Animist (since I could tutor for it early and I had a lot more small creatures to put it on) and I only had a few good lands to get off of it anyway. I can definitely see where Wayfarer, in this deck, can be powerful. Especially given how light I tend to be on lands in the early game for whatever reason. Worst case, it at least becomes a creature to put in the graveyard so it is never exactly a "dead" card. The main concern, of course, is that this deck *is* trying to play a bunch of land ramp which means its usefulness may be diminished based on that fact alone. But, the ability to get utility lands is a huge positive.
I do need to get some things figured out in the deck though as I have been having way more non-games than I have had in the past and I think it is because my meta has been building better decks. Which is always a good thing as it highlights some of the weaknesses of the deck. While it sucks that the deck is performing poorly, it is somewhat invigorating to try to determine where the weaknesses are and try to correct them as I have tended to slow down on creating new decks. This means that I can still put a focus on EDH by trying to evaluate existing decks rather than constantly having to build new decks to get my "fix".
Regarding possible cuts, I think I will try to go back down to 39 lands. First, I need more room (not the best reason of course) and second I am adding in some cheaper card draw and the Wayfarer that can hopefully ensure I hit my land drops anyway. I am looking at cutting Nissa as she takes a bit to transform and she doesn't actually ramp in her creature form. By the time she does transform, I am hopefully not in dire need of the additional lands she can get and I hopefully have better options for card draw. I think she is good for being able to either ramp or draw, but maybe not great since I really want those two things fairly early.
I am also thinking of cutting Knight of Autumn. I have a total of 3 creatures currently that deal with Artifacts or Enchantments, along with Aura Shards and the rest of the removal I added. I think I can afford to go down 1 for now and this is likely the weakest as Harmonic Sliver works with Necrotic Sliver and Qasali Pridemage is cheaper and gets around Torpor Orb.
Crypt Rats is the final card. I don't really want to cut it, but I think with everything else, it might make the most sense for now. Again, I really want to give the mana dorks a fair shake so I don't want to cut them too soon and I couldn't come up with anything else worth cutting. This gets the axe mostly for needing black mana and the deck is really focused on getting green early so, without Urborg, I don't usually have enough black mana to really do what I want.
So, here are the potential changes I think I am going to go with the next time I play the deck:
I think that looks pretty strong to me although I would definitely cut Harmonic over Knight - the small synergy is not as good as the potential lifegain outlet in my opinion. I actually like Reclamation sage personally over either of them just because it eases the burden of colored mana sources quite a lot, but that's a very niche preference of mine
You probably need to be thinking of this deck as 37 lands vs. 39 with 2 cut, though, as Bazaar and Diamond Valley do not reliably tap for mana.
That said with stuff like diligent farmhand, farhaven elf, etc. plus a little draw smoothing cantrippy guys, you might be fine to cut a couple.
Last note: I would consider making one of those cantrip walls into Satyr Wayfinder. That card always grossly overperforms for me. I completely blanked on it not being in your list. He winds up basically being "draw four" for 2 with Karador, and he can attack.
I will think on the Wayfinder. I think I might prefer the ability to profitably block early on and draw later on better than the early potential of the Wayfinder. I do see your point on the fact that it really helps Karador by pitching creatures, but I think I want to get cards in hand more than just pitching cards that Karador might be able to pick up later. I might try it out in the next round of changes though.
Other than the general, our lists look pretty different. Hopefully that would hold up in court
I'm surprised you're not running Birthing Pod though.
That could be a mistake, I admit, but one of the reasons I stay away from that (and Survival) is that it isn't always the most fun to just *have* the answer. I know it seems odd to say that considering how poorly the deck has performed lately as well as the fact that I included Fauna Shaman and am thinking about Survival anyway. Generally, I don't really like cards that tend to skew decks to playing out the same way each game.
However, Pod and Survival do kind of go the opposite way since I don't play infinite combos. That is, one game I might need to tutor up False Prophet to clear out a board stall. Another I may need to just get a Chupacabra to deal with one annoying creature without blowing up the rest of my board. Another time I might just want to get Harmonic Sliver to blow up an artifact or enchantment, or I just need some early ramp. So, while these cards can cause games to play out the same, the very nature of this deck, and the cards included in it, means that it probably won't always be the same thing. Even if it does turn into always having an answer, it doesn't mean that every game is identical.
My list actually seems to line up fairly well with Birthing Pod. Especially now that I have the Walls at the 2 drop slot (for now) as they give me something to sacrifice to get more value. As I am typing this, I am moving more towards the "include Pod" side of things. That, and Survival, may offer the deck the consistency it really needs.
Now, with all of that being said, there is the "simple" matter of finding something to cut. I do fully expect that one of my recent 7 or 8 changes will not pan out for whatever reason. Whether that is a dork, a removal spell, Wayfarer, Library, or a Wall remains to be seen. Which means that I think I need to get some reps in with the deck as it is to determine where cuts can be made. At that time, I will slot in Pod first followed by Survival if I think I still need it. Survival and Fauna Shaman are easy swaps but I am wondering if both might make sense even if the Shaman is more limited.
More of an update to the thread rather than the deck:
I have been interested in trying to turn this into a Primer for a little while now and I got most of the things done that I think I need. I did a fair bit of work on it and wanted to get it updated here to see what it looks like and to see if anyone had any further suggestions on it. I will likely not try to apply for Primer status on this site though so this is more of a trial run before moving it to MTGNexus.
I wrote a program to create the page layout for me. I based mine off the Primer Template that benjameenbear had uploaded a week or so ago so that was exceptionally helpful. Which means that this layout is pretty close to that but I was able to use some elements of other primers to make (hopefully) nice to look at and view.
Other than the general, our lists look pretty different. Hopefully that would hold up in court
That could be a mistake, I admit, but one of the reasons I stay away from that (and Survival) is that it isn't always the most fun to just *have* the answer. I know it seems odd to say that considering how poorly the deck has performed lately as well as the fact that I included Fauna Shaman and am thinking about Survival anyway. Generally, I don't really like cards that tend to skew decks to playing out the same way each game.
However, Pod and Survival do kind of go the opposite way since I don't play infinite combos. That is, one game I might need to tutor up False Prophet to clear out a board stall. Another I may need to just get a Chupacabra to deal with one annoying creature without blowing up the rest of my board. Another time I might just want to get Harmonic Sliver to blow up an artifact or enchantment, or I just need some early ramp. So, while these cards can cause games to play out the same, the very nature of this deck, and the cards included in it, means that it probably won't always be the same thing. Even if it does turn into always having an answer, it doesn't mean that every game is identical.
My list actually seems to line up fairly well with Birthing Pod. Especially now that I have the Walls at the 2 drop slot (for now) as they give me something to sacrifice to get more value. As I am typing this, I am moving more towards the "include Pod" side of things. That, and Survival, may offer the deck the consistency it really needs.
Now, with all of that being said, there is the "simple" matter of finding something to cut. I do fully expect that one of my recent 7 or 8 changes will not pan out for whatever reason. Whether that is a dork, a removal spell, Wayfarer, Library, or a Wall remains to be seen. Which means that I think I need to get some reps in with the deck as it is to determine where cuts can be made. At that time, I will slot in Pod first followed by Survival if I think I still need it. Survival and Fauna Shaman are easy swaps but I am wondering if both might make sense even if the Shaman is more limited.
Lol I meant because your title is the same as mine.
Anyway, my deck rarely plays the same and Pod will only get you the same cards over and over if you build your deck to always go Wad Robot into Karmic Guide for the Llark combo. It's one of my favorite cards in the deck.
Lol I meant because your title is the same as mine.
Anyway, my deck rarely plays the same and Pod will only get you the same cards over and over if you build your deck to always go Wad Robot into Karmic Guide for the Llark combo. It's one of my favorite cards in the deck.
Ah, I totally missed that. I was so focused on the deck list, I didn't even see the thread title. Great minds think alike (and all that)
And yeah, you are right about Pod. I just have this irrational fear (I guess) about decks playing out the same all the time since my Gitrog deck from a couple years ago just turned into a combo deck where I would always win with the exact same cards each game without ever really intending to do that.
I have a game summary I will type up a little later but I do want to try out Pod in the deck.
I started off the game with a turn 1 mana dork (Birds of Paradise) and then proceed not to use it for about 9 turns. Turn 2 was Sakura, turn 3 was Wood Elves, turn 4 was Sylvan Library, and then I mostly just played lands. Until Zedruu donated me an Aggressive Mining. It slowed me down, but not terribly and I eventually got down an Aura Shards to blow it up. After I got library down, Zedruu ended up with Howling Mine and Smothering Tithe so they were ramping like crazy (I didn't want to pay 4 mana to stop them from getting treasures) and actually ramped into an Overwhelming Splendor. Not only did I have Unexpectedly Absent, but I got Aura Shards down the turn after so I blew it up pretty quickly. It was the first time I had not felt threatened by the Splendor.
The game went on with me slowly killing things and just accumulating mana while I waited. I got down a few creatures in the mean time and then I got down a Chainer, Dementia Master. I used this to get back an Ulvenwald Hydra that died to give me an Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth to make sure I could activate Chainer more.
Around this time, Zedruu was kind enough to gift me a Grid Monitor. I was able to reanimate a bunch of creatures still and trigger Aura Shards. Which I used to kill....anything but the Grid Monitor. I blew up some of their enchantments as well as some of Jhoira's Artifacts. And then, I just sacrificed the Grid Monitor to Phyrexian Tower so in the end they basically just gifted me 2 mana.
I was able to reanimate Kokusho and sacrifice him for some draining and reanimated him again. I used him to attack along with the Hydra and ended up just winning off those beats and reanimating, and killing, Kokusho 2 more times. I only had 1 sac outlet the entire game so the final play was to reanimate my Necrotic Sliver to kill him.
Birds did come into play a little later in the game, but it wasn't a huge impact. I was low on black mana so it was nice to have but I am not sure how much it really helped over something else that could have been there. It wasn't like it felt wasted so I am going to stick with it for a little while, but it did feel underwhelming. The board also never got wrathed so it lived the entire game.
One interesting play made possible by recent additions was a turn in which Jhoira tried to cast One with the Machine to draw 5 cards (I forget the artifact they had). They had 4 artifacts total so I responded by sacrificing Protean Hulk and getting Deathrite Shaman, Weathered Wayfarer, Wall of Omens, and Wall of Blossoms. Since I still had Aura Shards, I blew up all 4 of their artifacts and drew 2 cards. I am not sure how much it really mattered but it felt like a sweet play. Unfortunately, Deathrite and Wayfarer only showed up at this time and did nothing else so I couldn't evaluate their effectiveness beyond this.
Ooze is Instant timing Grave Hate that is stapled to a creature. It is not as good as Agent of Erebos or Nihil Spellbomb in terms of blowing up the entire graveyard but combines the two to give me a creature to remove specific cards. I am willing to try this over the Agent for now to see how much the Instant Timing changes things.
Underrealm Lich works well for the deck overall. I get to pick the card I want (and works fantastically with Sylvan Library) and it fills my graveyard to fuel Karador and other reanimation. Which is also where Necromancy comes in. I am going to try it out as a "better" Corpse Dance. Since some of these cards make it even tougher to control the top of my graveyard, Corpse Dance becomes tougher to set things up. Necromancy is one time use but a) is Instant timing if I need it and b) works pretty well with Sun Titan.
Birthing Pod and Green Sun's move the deck further into the Toolbox category and both seem pretty good for the deck. Both are reusable (GSZ is a little harder since it shuffles in but I can draw it again) and both can get me cards I might need at a specific time. Both are Sorcery timing but their effects are worth that restriction.
Evolutionary Leap is another Sac outlet and one that gets me another creature to replace the one I just sacrificed. It only goes to hand, and it does cost mana, but it seems that it could be a decent addition to the deck.
Collector Ouphe is just a hate card to slow down opposing Artifact strategies. I play very few artifacts in the deck so it is unlikely to ever effect me and I can get it off a GSZ early or a Pod activation.
As for the cuts, Farmhand and Solemn seem like some of my worse land based ramp. Farmhand is decent, but I don't really feel like I want to see it (even early on) and a lot of the more recent changes (and some of the ones I am thinking of) potentially lower the usefulness of the Farmhand as early ramp. Solemn is on the more expensive side but the same thing reducing the usefulness of Farmhand applies to Solemn. Plus, I am working in some additional card draw/filtering that having the Solemn die to draw a card becomes less useful.
Agent is Sorcery timing so a straight swap with Ooze might be better. Ooze handles things earlier, comes back from Sun Titan, lowers the curve, and can be gotten easier off some of the new tutors.
Corpse Dance, as mentioned above, is becoming more and more difficult to control regarding what I get back. I like that it is repeatable but I think there is a higher likelihood of it just not doing what I want since the top of my graveyard might be a Sakura-Tribe Elder or something.
And, finally, Birds, Deathrite, and Wayfarer have been underwhelming so far. I have goldfished and played a few games with these included and I have never wanted them. Birds has been somewhat useful to get me the 10th mana when I needed it, but that isn't what it is really here for. Deathrite has never actually made an appearance in game and Wayfarer, when it does show up, can't be activated about half the time due to the rest of my ramp.
And finally, due to some of the potential additions, I am going to try 39 lands again. I am having a real problem getting the right land count for the deck but seeing as a lot of the cards being added offer more consistency and let me see more cards, I think I am fine to go back to 39 for now.
With all of that being said, here are the changes I made for today. Any cards not cut or added are still being considered based on comments above:
I played this game tonight and it worked out really well. I didn't end up winning but I kept dragging out the game and I kind of wanted it to end so I had a couple less than optimal plays. But, Birthing Pod and Underrealm Lich were easily the stars of the game.
Pod kept me going early in the game though I did try to tutor for Solemn early as I already forgot I removed it. I grabbed Oracle of Mul Daya which ended up being much better for ramp and I still sacrificed it to get something else.
Lich and Bazaar let me see 6 cards each time. I did get Lich and Sylvan Library down at the same time but never got to draw with them both on the field as they got destroyed.
I ended up staying alive mostly through Spike Weaver and the "suboptimal" play I had was shuffling it away without reanimating it when I discarded Kozilek to reanimate him. I had managed to stay alive at this point through a super relevant Generous Gift on top of my library that I drew off Erebos after using Bazaar (Underrealm Lich wasn't on the field at this time) which let me kill an opposing Gisela that was doubling damage from a Comet Storm. I stuck it out from there for a long time and got back up to 42 life at one point.
I did get Deathrite which did nothing and I never saw Birds or Wayfarer. I am convinced that none of those cards would have helped me in that game and I am really leaning heavily into finding different cards for these three slots. I am really liking a lot of the other changes that have been made and I don't think these do enough.
My removal suite has been super important as well. We did have to deal with an opposing Brisela and none of my removal could get rid of it since they had Avacyn. Until I got Unexpectedly Absent and cast for X=2 to get rid of Brisel which then let me use Anguished Unmaking to get rid of Avacyn. This led to the Generous Gift play I mentioned above.
I will likely try to change up the 3 creatures I mentioned before playing again but the deck is really starting to come back around to where I want it to be.
Miren is high on the cost for sure, but it is a sac outlet and gains me a ton of life over the course of a game. Generally, life gain can be valued too highly but this and Diamond Valley have won me games I would not have otherwise won. Which is part of the reason I need a high number of lands.
Yeah, I can see the Cartographer making an exit. It was included due to being able to grab duals but 4 mana is a lot. I have actually considered cutting Solemn for being 4 mana too, but the card draw is enough to keep it around (for now). I will try swapping out the Cartographer for a dork.
1 Kor Cartographer
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Oblation
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Anguished Unmaking
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Usually you need to run just enough to be able to pop stuff like Torpor orb, but you also usually have Pridemage or Catterpillar to deal with that, so it's a balancing act. Mainly Humility is the big stick you have to have spells for.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
The first 2 games were against Tuvasa, new Vaevictus, and Animar. This deck pairs up very poorly against Animar and it showed. I played 2 games against it because I wanted to beat the deck, but I was unsuccessful.
The first game was pretty bad in that I had basically no ramp and almost no removal. The only removal I ever got to was Toxic Deluge but Animar countered it. From there, I did basically nothing. My lands were not cooperating, I was missing my second green source for Eternal Witness to get back Toxic Deluge, and a host of other issues. I basically just rolled over and died.
The second game was very similar to the first except I did get some ramp. Not a lot though and still I never saw any removal. I never saw any cards I added except Beast Within which did kill Animar for me, but it was not nearly enough. At one point, Vaevictus blew up a land of mine which set me way back.
Overall, these 2 games illustrated what happens when the deck just doesn't work (the third game did too but for a different reason). Even though Animar is exceptionally tough to deal with against this deck, I was really disappointed in how poorly these games went.
The third game went better, but not by a lot. In this one, I played against Nahiri and The Ur-Dragon. Unfortunately, in this case, I didn't draw much beyond ramp. I ended up with Wood Elves, Burnished Hart, and Sakura-Tribe Elder. Early on I looped Burnished Hart with Volrath's Stronghold a few times to get rid of my lands and I still ended up drawing lands later on. I did have a Remorseful Cleric that allowed me to block and a Ravenous Chupacabra that killed a few things. Necrotic Sliver was a big one in a couple situations but I never got anything "big". In the end, I ended up winning simply because Nahiri and Dragons kept going after one another and Dragons was down to 1 life when they cast an Earthquake for 4 to kill the board and kill themselves. I top decked a Chainer and reanimated Gray Merchant and Necrotic Sliver to have Nahiri lose 6 life which was exactly enough to kill them.
All in all, this was pretty disappointing to see. I think I may end up needing to bite the bullet and include a Survival of the Fittest to help make the deck more consistent. In the short term (since a foil Survival is expensive) I may try out Fauna Shaman. It is a reasonable compromise I think and might be worth trying out.
You might even get some mileage out of a couple cantrip creatures to smooth stuff out. I always really liked Wall of Blossoms in my buddy's karador deck.
Possibly an Enlightened Tutor to get Greater Good would be better than any of those though. And good once you get a Survival too
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
I have thought about things like Wall of Blossoms and Wall of Omens before and decided against them. It might be worthwhile to try them out as they cantrip and can get down some early blocking. Thinking back to my game last night, I would have loved to have one of them I could have kept casting off Karador (though I never got to one of my freaking sac outlets which was disappointing as well). In honesty, I much prefer those over Skullclamp because a) Clamp has a huge target on it, and b) it requires a couple pieces to get cards out of since very few of my creatures have 1 toughness. I count 9 that I would actually want to Clamp which I don't think is enough to warrant it on its own.
E. Tutor isn't the worst option since it gets a variety of things (sac outlet, draw, grave hate, ramp, board wipe). I might just need to add one because those cards can be crucial. I am going to hold off for now but I might think on it for later. I am already having a tough enough time coming up with cuts.
So, I think adding in Sylvan Library, Fauna Shaman (maybe turned into Survival later), and the two Walls are something worth trying. In their place, it seems that cutting a land (back to 40) can be fine. This will just be a Plains. And then I already wasn't really enamored with Nissa, so she can go for now. I don't know what else I want to get rid of. I have always thought 39 lands was right but I have had so many mana issues lately so I bumped it to 40. Maybe 39 is still right and I just had a string of bad luck which means cutting another Plains. And, of course, every time I look at my list, I dislike BoP and Deathrite but I want to give them a fair shake so I can't cut them yet. And I want to try both Walls. I will hopefully find something before I play the deck again next week.
I know I tend to suggest tutors a lot so obviously you have to be cautious not to overdo it But Wayfarer has never been anything but a damn rockstar for me in any deck that isn't wanting to play tons of land ramp.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
I do need to get some things figured out in the deck though as I have been having way more non-games than I have had in the past and I think it is because my meta has been building better decks. Which is always a good thing as it highlights some of the weaknesses of the deck. While it sucks that the deck is performing poorly, it is somewhat invigorating to try to determine where the weaknesses are and try to correct them as I have tended to slow down on creating new decks. This means that I can still put a focus on EDH by trying to evaluate existing decks rather than constantly having to build new decks to get my "fix".
Regarding possible cuts, I think I will try to go back down to 39 lands. First, I need more room (not the best reason of course) and second I am adding in some cheaper card draw and the Wayfarer that can hopefully ensure I hit my land drops anyway. I am looking at cutting Nissa as she takes a bit to transform and she doesn't actually ramp in her creature form. By the time she does transform, I am hopefully not in dire need of the additional lands she can get and I hopefully have better options for card draw. I think she is good for being able to either ramp or draw, but maybe not great since I really want those two things fairly early.
I am also thinking of cutting Knight of Autumn. I have a total of 3 creatures currently that deal with Artifacts or Enchantments, along with Aura Shards and the rest of the removal I added. I think I can afford to go down 1 for now and this is likely the weakest as Harmonic Sliver works with Necrotic Sliver and Qasali Pridemage is cheaper and gets around Torpor Orb.
Crypt Rats is the final card. I don't really want to cut it, but I think with everything else, it might make the most sense for now. Again, I really want to give the mana dorks a fair shake so I don't want to cut them too soon and I couldn't come up with anything else worth cutting. This gets the axe mostly for needing black mana and the deck is really focused on getting green early so, without Urborg, I don't usually have enough black mana to really do what I want.
So, here are the potential changes I think I am going to go with the next time I play the deck:
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Knight of Autumn
1 Crypt Rats
1 Sylvan Library
1 Wall of Omens
1 Wall of Blossoms
1 Weathered Wayfarer
1 Fauna Shaman
You probably need to be thinking of this deck as 37 lands vs. 39 with 2 cut, though, as Bazaar and Diamond Valley do not reliably tap for mana.
That said with stuff like diligent farmhand, farhaven elf, etc. plus a little draw smoothing cantrippy guys, you might be fine to cut a couple.
Last note: I would consider making one of those cantrip walls into Satyr Wayfinder. That card always grossly overperforms for me. I completely blanked on it not being in your list. He winds up basically being "draw four" for 2 with Karador, and he can attack.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
I'm surprised you're not running Birthing Pod though.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
I will think on the Wayfinder. I think I might prefer the ability to profitably block early on and draw later on better than the early potential of the Wayfinder. I do see your point on the fact that it really helps Karador by pitching creatures, but I think I want to get cards in hand more than just pitching cards that Karador might be able to pick up later. I might try it out in the next round of changes though.
That could be a mistake, I admit, but one of the reasons I stay away from that (and Survival) is that it isn't always the most fun to just *have* the answer. I know it seems odd to say that considering how poorly the deck has performed lately as well as the fact that I included Fauna Shaman and am thinking about Survival anyway. Generally, I don't really like cards that tend to skew decks to playing out the same way each game.
However, Pod and Survival do kind of go the opposite way since I don't play infinite combos. That is, one game I might need to tutor up False Prophet to clear out a board stall. Another I may need to just get a Chupacabra to deal with one annoying creature without blowing up the rest of my board. Another time I might just want to get Harmonic Sliver to blow up an artifact or enchantment, or I just need some early ramp. So, while these cards can cause games to play out the same, the very nature of this deck, and the cards included in it, means that it probably won't always be the same thing. Even if it does turn into always having an answer, it doesn't mean that every game is identical.
My list actually seems to line up fairly well with Birthing Pod. Especially now that I have the Walls at the 2 drop slot (for now) as they give me something to sacrifice to get more value. As I am typing this, I am moving more towards the "include Pod" side of things. That, and Survival, may offer the deck the consistency it really needs.
Now, with all of that being said, there is the "simple" matter of finding something to cut. I do fully expect that one of my recent 7 or 8 changes will not pan out for whatever reason. Whether that is a dork, a removal spell, Wayfarer, Library, or a Wall remains to be seen. Which means that I think I need to get some reps in with the deck as it is to determine where cuts can be made. At that time, I will slot in Pod first followed by Survival if I think I still need it. Survival and Fauna Shaman are easy swaps but I am wondering if both might make sense even if the Shaman is more limited.
I have been interested in trying to turn this into a Primer for a little while now and I got most of the things done that I think I need. I did a fair bit of work on it and wanted to get it updated here to see what it looks like and to see if anyone had any further suggestions on it. I will likely not try to apply for Primer status on this site though so this is more of a trial run before moving it to MTGNexus.
I wrote a program to create the page layout for me. I based mine off the Primer Template that benjameenbear had uploaded a week or so ago so that was exceptionally helpful. Which means that this layout is pretty close to that but I was able to use some elements of other primers to make (hopefully) nice to look at and view.
Lol I meant because your title is the same as mine.
Anyway, my deck rarely plays the same and Pod will only get you the same cards over and over if you build your deck to always go Wad Robot into Karmic Guide for the Llark combo. It's one of my favorite cards in the deck.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
And yeah, you are right about Pod. I just have this irrational fear (I guess) about decks playing out the same all the time since my Gitrog deck from a couple years ago just turned into a combo deck where I would always win with the exact same cards each game without ever really intending to do that.
I have a game summary I will type up a little later but I do want to try out Pod in the deck.
I started off the game with a turn 1 mana dork (Birds of Paradise) and then proceed not to use it for about 9 turns. Turn 2 was Sakura, turn 3 was Wood Elves, turn 4 was Sylvan Library, and then I mostly just played lands. Until Zedruu donated me an Aggressive Mining. It slowed me down, but not terribly and I eventually got down an Aura Shards to blow it up. After I got library down, Zedruu ended up with Howling Mine and Smothering Tithe so they were ramping like crazy (I didn't want to pay 4 mana to stop them from getting treasures) and actually ramped into an Overwhelming Splendor. Not only did I have Unexpectedly Absent, but I got Aura Shards down the turn after so I blew it up pretty quickly. It was the first time I had not felt threatened by the Splendor.
The game went on with me slowly killing things and just accumulating mana while I waited. I got down a few creatures in the mean time and then I got down a Chainer, Dementia Master. I used this to get back an Ulvenwald Hydra that died to give me an Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth to make sure I could activate Chainer more.
Around this time, Zedruu was kind enough to gift me a Grid Monitor. I was able to reanimate a bunch of creatures still and trigger Aura Shards. Which I used to kill....anything but the Grid Monitor. I blew up some of their enchantments as well as some of Jhoira's Artifacts. And then, I just sacrificed the Grid Monitor to Phyrexian Tower so in the end they basically just gifted me 2 mana.
I was able to reanimate Kokusho and sacrifice him for some draining and reanimated him again. I used him to attack along with the Hydra and ended up just winning off those beats and reanimating, and killing, Kokusho 2 more times. I only had 1 sac outlet the entire game so the final play was to reanimate my Necrotic Sliver to kill him.
Birds did come into play a little later in the game, but it wasn't a huge impact. I was low on black mana so it was nice to have but I am not sure how much it really helped over something else that could have been there. It wasn't like it felt wasted so I am going to stick with it for a little while, but it did feel underwhelming. The board also never got wrathed so it lived the entire game.
One interesting play made possible by recent additions was a turn in which Jhoira tried to cast One with the Machine to draw 5 cards (I forget the artifact they had). They had 4 artifacts total so I responded by sacrificing Protean Hulk and getting Deathrite Shaman, Weathered Wayfarer, Wall of Omens, and Wall of Blossoms. Since I still had Aura Shards, I blew up all 4 of their artifacts and drew 2 cards. I am not sure how much it really mattered but it felt like a sweet play. Unfortunately, Deathrite and Wayfarer only showed up at this time and did nothing else so I couldn't evaluate their effectiveness beyond this.
And, some of the cards being looked at for cuts:
Of the cards to add:
Ooze is Instant timing Grave Hate that is stapled to a creature. It is not as good as Agent of Erebos or Nihil Spellbomb in terms of blowing up the entire graveyard but combines the two to give me a creature to remove specific cards. I am willing to try this over the Agent for now to see how much the Instant Timing changes things.
Underrealm Lich works well for the deck overall. I get to pick the card I want (and works fantastically with Sylvan Library) and it fills my graveyard to fuel Karador and other reanimation. Which is also where Necromancy comes in. I am going to try it out as a "better" Corpse Dance. Since some of these cards make it even tougher to control the top of my graveyard, Corpse Dance becomes tougher to set things up. Necromancy is one time use but a) is Instant timing if I need it and b) works pretty well with Sun Titan.
Birthing Pod and Green Sun's move the deck further into the Toolbox category and both seem pretty good for the deck. Both are reusable (GSZ is a little harder since it shuffles in but I can draw it again) and both can get me cards I might need at a specific time. Both are Sorcery timing but their effects are worth that restriction.
Evolutionary Leap is another Sac outlet and one that gets me another creature to replace the one I just sacrificed. It only goes to hand, and it does cost mana, but it seems that it could be a decent addition to the deck.
Collector Ouphe is just a hate card to slow down opposing Artifact strategies. I play very few artifacts in the deck so it is unlikely to ever effect me and I can get it off a GSZ early or a Pod activation.
As for the cuts, Farmhand and Solemn seem like some of my worse land based ramp. Farmhand is decent, but I don't really feel like I want to see it (even early on) and a lot of the more recent changes (and some of the ones I am thinking of) potentially lower the usefulness of the Farmhand as early ramp. Solemn is on the more expensive side but the same thing reducing the usefulness of Farmhand applies to Solemn. Plus, I am working in some additional card draw/filtering that having the Solemn die to draw a card becomes less useful.
Agent is Sorcery timing so a straight swap with Ooze might be better. Ooze handles things earlier, comes back from Sun Titan, lowers the curve, and can be gotten easier off some of the new tutors.
Corpse Dance, as mentioned above, is becoming more and more difficult to control regarding what I get back. I like that it is repeatable but I think there is a higher likelihood of it just not doing what I want since the top of my graveyard might be a Sakura-Tribe Elder or something.
And, finally, Birds, Deathrite, and Wayfarer have been underwhelming so far. I have goldfished and played a few games with these included and I have never wanted them. Birds has been somewhat useful to get me the 10th mana when I needed it, but that isn't what it is really here for. Deathrite has never actually made an appearance in game and Wayfarer, when it does show up, can't be activated about half the time due to the rest of my ramp.
And finally, due to some of the potential additions, I am going to try 39 lands again. I am having a real problem getting the right land count for the deck but seeing as a lot of the cards being added offer more consistency and let me see more cards, I think I am fine to go back to 39 for now.
With all of that being said, here are the changes I made for today. Any cards not cut or added are still being considered based on comments above:
1 Diligent Farmhand
1 Corpse Dance
1 Agent of Erebos
1 Forest
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Birthing Pod
1 Necromancy
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Underrealm Lich
1 Scavenging Ooze
Pod kept me going early in the game though I did try to tutor for Solemn early as I already forgot I removed it. I grabbed Oracle of Mul Daya which ended up being much better for ramp and I still sacrificed it to get something else.
Lich and Bazaar let me see 6 cards each time. I did get Lich and Sylvan Library down at the same time but never got to draw with them both on the field as they got destroyed.
I ended up staying alive mostly through Spike Weaver and the "suboptimal" play I had was shuffling it away without reanimating it when I discarded Kozilek to reanimate him. I had managed to stay alive at this point through a super relevant Generous Gift on top of my library that I drew off Erebos after using Bazaar (Underrealm Lich wasn't on the field at this time) which let me kill an opposing Gisela that was doubling damage from a Comet Storm. I stuck it out from there for a long time and got back up to 42 life at one point.
I did get Deathrite which did nothing and I never saw Birds or Wayfarer. I am convinced that none of those cards would have helped me in that game and I am really leaning heavily into finding different cards for these three slots. I am really liking a lot of the other changes that have been made and I don't think these do enough.
My removal suite has been super important as well. We did have to deal with an opposing Brisela and none of my removal could get rid of it since they had Avacyn. Until I got Unexpectedly Absent and cast for X=2 to get rid of Brisel which then let me use Anguished Unmaking to get rid of Avacyn. This led to the Generous Gift play I mentioned above.
I will likely try to change up the 3 creatures I mentioned before playing again but the deck is really starting to come back around to where I want it to be.