Don't look at me! I'm just sitting here drawing cards!
Why green stax?
In all honesty, I'm just curious as to whether or not it's any good.
Why Nissa?
Nissa, Vastwood Seer has a lot to offer. She's competitively costed, finds lands, and once she flips she draws cards. This makes her good at basically every stage of the game, and especially good once the board is locked down. Getting two draws per turn (one of which potentially just puts lands into play) means I'll always have card advantage as long as she goes unchecked. She's also not threatening by herself. Unfortunately, the fact that she is mono-green and an elf to boot makes her very threatening to opponents who assume you are playing some kind of combo elves deck, but much less so than other commanders in that category.
You'll notice that I'm not playing Gaea's Cradle, Candelabra or Mana Crypt. That's because I don't have any, and won't in the near future.
Considerations
Crawlspace - Stax makes people mad, and that makes me a target. Crawl Space gives me the opportunity to mitigate at least some of the damage once I become archenemy.
Cool deck idea! I've never seen mono-green stax before. Have you tested it yet, or is this just a theory?
Also, I assume Personal Tutor should be Worldly Tutor, or something? You can't run a blue card in mono-green.
Edit: Also, why Genesis Wave? I understand that it can be a win-con, but I usually don't expect to get enough mana to make it worth it when I'm playing stax.
Personal Tutor should be Sylvan Tutor. My bad! Thanks for pointing that out.
I haven't tested it out yet. I wanted to get some feedback first before I meet with my group next. Stax is kind of unfamiliar territory to me.
I initially had Genesis Wave in version of the deck that skewed towards elves + Craterhoof Behemoth over mana rocks. The amount of mana that you can generate with cards like Priest of Titania plus untappers is just nuts, and since most of my stax is taxing or land locks, I figured I would be free to cast big X spells that win the game.
That being said, this version is significantly lighter on mana (even considering the rocks), so maybe Genesis Wave makes less sense. I'm opening to switching it out for something else. Any ideas?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing with proxied cards at sanctioned events is good, actually.
Stax is my bread and butter. It's a fun archetype that's really hard to pilot - but that's what I love about it. As long as you play with a group who is tolerant of stax (understandably, not everyone is), I think everyone should give it a try. I run a Nath of the Gilt-Leaf stax list, and there's a ton of stax value in the addition of black, but I really like that you tried something different.
Taking a closer look at your list, I think you're right that the deck still has the ability to produce a lot of mana, so GWave might be worth keeping. That being said, one thing you might think about running, regardless of whether or not you keep GWave, is Hall of Gemstone. It's a nice way to hold off control decks who want to be playing things on your turn, and your instant count is low, so it won't really hurt you. Sword of Feast and Famine can help you untap your own lands while everyone else is locked under the Orb. Finally, Ritual of Subdual is a mean card you might consider running.
Thanks for the reply! I originally had Hall of Gemstone, but I had abandoned it because I didn't quite see its application. I thought: this is a good way to hate on multicolor decks with greedy mana bases, but is it good enough? I didn't even think about how much harder it makes to play on my turn for my opponents! Thanks for pointing that out.
My worry with Sword of Feast and Famine is that, since my creature count is so low and most of them don't have evasion, there will be few opportunities to get value from connecting. But I'll give it a shot anyway and see. Now what to take out...
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing with proxied cards at sanctioned events is good, actually.
You might consider cutting a land. I run 34 lands in my stax deck, and while I might have a little bit of a lower curve than yours, it looks like you have a lot more other mana producers. Plus, you have ramp in your command zone.
I've decided to cut Mana Web for Hall of Gemstone. I want to make sure that the hate is symmetrical, and as jenncertainty pointed out, Hell of Gemstone also prevents opponents from playing on my turn. The one thing that makes me nervous is the fact that it also makes it easier for combo decks to combo unopposed, so I'll probably always be casting this after other lock-down effects.
I'll get a chance to try out the list this weekend and will be writing up a full report.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing with proxied cards at sanctioned events is good, actually.
Yes, Voltaic Key might end up doing very little. I wonder if it would be better to just have another rock. maybe Coalition Relic to make sure I have colored mana? Maybe Moss Diamond?
You're the second person to mention Ritual of Subdual. I'll be honest, I'm a bit skeptical because the cumulative upkeep cost is so high, but i will give it a shot. Nature's Wrath could be cool. I just wonder how often it is a dead card.
Like Cursed Totem but I don't know what to cut for it.
Mana Web: I didn't know that card was errata'd for all opponents, not just "target opponent". In that case it's an obvious inclusion.
Do you think I have enough creatures for Nature's Will? The low count is one of the reasons why I'm not running Sword of Feast and Famine, which could be a mistake.
This is a lot of stuff to add... is there anything in the list I have now that seems especially weak?
Also, what do y'all think of Trading Post? I figured it might be a way to make sure I have chump blockers without having to minus Nissa. More importantly, it lets me get back key artifacts that have gone to the graveyard (Tangle Wire, Winter Orb, etc.) at minimal cost.
You'll also notice that I'm playing the veritably terrible Sage of Ancient Lore. This is because 1) he cantrips, 2) he has vigilance and 3) he will get very, very big once I get a lock.
Have you considered Multani, Maro-Sorcerer? He doesn't cantrip or have vigilance, but he does have shroud and is always the size of Werewolf of Ancient Hunger, instead of sometimes being the size of Sage of Ancient Lore. He does cost 1 more mana, though. Overall, Sage is probably better for this purpose (especially considering the wolf's trample), but redundancies can be useful.
You have Trading Post in considerations but I think it needs to be bumped to main list. You will get value from the life gain and creature generation as well. It's just a really flexible card that finds some way to get value from whatever is happening in the game, which in Stax seems to be pretty big. I've just suited up the Ghave primer and in long games its an unsung hero.
@Lithl - I had not considered Multani, Maro-Sorcerer. I do like shroud, but I don't like the cost or lack of evasion. Sage of Ancient Lore at least has two combat keywords (trample and vigilance), but it could be possible that shroud is just better. I'll try Sage this weekend and see if my opponents have enough resources to deal with it. If so, I'll need to re-tool the deck anyway, but maybe Multani will need to come in.
@Welgo - I agree. But what to cut? I'm looking at Tooth and Nail or Genesis Wave, actually. I don't think I run enough game-ending threats for either to really be that good.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing with proxied cards at sanctioned events is good, actually.
Either seems like a good choice, they are definitely not your top end stax cards. I'd consider adding another consideration in place and cut both of them.
- Clock of Omens - as elfric pointed out, there are not really enough artifacts in my list to justify this card.
- Voltaic Key - see above
- Warping Wail - there are a few sorceries that will really mess me up, but I don't think it does enough in this list.
- Tooth and Nail - too expensive, and my creature quality is too weak to really justify. I'm happy with the tutors I have to find untappers/wincons.
- Genesis Wave - similar to Tooth and Nail. Best case I ramp out stax pieces. Worst case nothing relevant happens. Not enough threats to warrant.
- Wastes - This was initially hear as a tutor target to ensure I can cast Warping Wail or World Breaker. I have enough colorless producers that it's not really necessary.
+ Mana Web - Didn't see the errata. Obvious inclusion.
+ Root Maze - Didn't know it existed, actually. Obvious inclusion.
+ Trading Post - Too much value to ignore.
+ Ritual of Subdual - More land hate. Never played with it. Gonna try it out and see.
+ Cursed Totem - Only my creatures should get to do things.
+ Rogue's Passage - I may need a way to kill a player fast. Sage of Ancient Lore + Rogue's Passage could do the trick.
First off, I love mono green decks and almost always play them.
Almost every time I play Seedborn Muse in a deck with no counterspells, it is either copied, killed and reanimated or stolen. It seems my opponents get better use of it than me. It could really help your opponents get out of the lock if they control it. It is good in a deck like Yisan, where you only need to play it at the end of your opponents end step and go wild and win. In a slow controlling deck, more often than not, somebody else will control it.
Multani, Maro-Sorcerer is a scary card if you can play it early. I played with a person who constantly got it out 3rd or 4th turn, if you don't have a chumper out, you are dead. Many times people had to play their generals before they were ready to. Could be a stack piece in a weird way.
why is Tree of Tales there? I don't see any advantage over a basic Forest.
Tsabo's Web is a non-combo with almost a third of your lands that are not fetches.
Tireless Tracker is too good to leave out with Smokestack, Tangle Wire and Trading Post. Plus the creature is still good with out these cards.
Also, you have 9 fetches and 7 forest searches for 16 forest. I would up the basic lands, you will run out of targets for your searches. I often see mono green decks playing 20 to 24 Forest out 34 to 40 lands
Knowing what is on the top of your deck is very strong with Nissa, consider Courser of Kruphix and Mirri's Guile
I would play more artifact hate, and graveyard hate
I would cut Regrowth and Magus of the Candelabra for starters. The Magus doesn't do much of anything here and there are just better options than Regrowth these days.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You would never guess, at the terrifying sight of the man, that Hunding was as charming a companion as one could wish for.
@midorimage: as elfric pointed out, Seedborn Muse is there to break the symmetry with Winter Orb, Static Orb and Freyalise's Winds. You're right that, if it gets taken, I'm in a very, very bad spot. But I also need to be able to keep up a mana advantage.
I had Tree of Tales in solely for its interaction with Mox Opal, but I think you're right that a basic Forest would probably be better.
Regarding Tireless Tracker: This card seems really good. I hadn't thought about it before. Might slot it in, but I might also try Tamiyo's Journal instead as a way to tutor for cards later in the game.
@Hunding Gjornerson: I agree that Regrowth isn't that strong. I have Trading Post, and that'll just have to do for bringing back orbs and the like. It will come out. If I really need something, I can always tutor Eternal Witness instead.
I do disagree, however, regarding Magus of the Candelabra. Without Seedborn Muse in play, I need a way to break parity by untapping more lands. Magus does this, though admittedly somewhat poorly.
Other considerations:
I imagine that Lotus Cobra, Quirion Ranger and Scryb Ranger will not pull their weight. I'm preemptively taking them out along with Regrowth.
In their place, I'll tentatively add: Crawlspace, Sylvan Safekeeper (good with Titania, good with creature wincons), Tamiyo's Journal and Mirri's Guile. Also considering Omnath, Locus of Mana, but not sure yet. It's a good way to load up with mana before casting land hate, but he also has such a huge target on his head that it might not be worth it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing with proxied cards at sanctioned events is good, actually.
If you think it wouldnt be too beneficial to your opponents, Urborg, Tomb of Yagmoth is powerful with Mana Web. Idk if it's really worth it, but with how easy it is for green to get the lands it needs it may worth consideration.
>muse seems essential here to break those orb symmetries.
On paper Seedborn Muse looks strong, but you are playing with three other people who would love to have their own. It won't last too long on your side of the battlefield, or at least be the only one that controls one. Your deck doesn't really have a way to make a quick instant lock, there will be plenty of time to steal Seedborn. Gilded Drake, Clones, Snuff Out/Reanimate
>But I also need to be able to keep up a mana advantage.
Green has many ways to gain and exploit mana advantage... how about Wild Growth, Utopia Sprawl and the like? Enchantment stay longer than mana rocks. Good Synergy with Garruk and Earthcraft.. Try to up your devotion to green and play Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx. (If you don't have a Cradle)
Quirion Ranger / Scryb Ranger need something strong to untap, maybe an Arbor Elf or another Mana Dork
Warping Wail gets rid of Aven Mindcensor.. which cripples many green decks. It looks like a quarter of your deck are cards that search.
Orb of Dreams / Rootmaze and fetches are bad together.
If you can't get rid of your opponents' mana rocks, Winter Orb isn't as busted as it seems. BTW, Winter Orb got errata again...
It is now if it is tapped on your upkeep, you can untap your lands.
Uba Mask might be good as a lock piece, it works well with a flipped Nissa.
you could be right that it's a liability. I'm going to keep it in for now and see how testing goes tomorrow. If I end up kicking myself... well then you can say "I told you so"
One way around it might be Blinkmoth Well. It allows me to tap either Winter Orb or Static Orb at the end of my opponent's turn and untap all lands. What do you think?
>green mana enchantments
not too keen on these, actually. I want to keep my lands around (both for mana advantage and to ensure I can flip nissa if she dies), and I find that these enchantments come with a huge target on them. I'm not saying that it's necessarily the right play to wasteland a basic forest with a wild growth attached, but it is something that people will do, and I'm not keen on losing two cards (one being a land) considering how low the land quality in the deck is.
>opposing rocks
how would you recommend dealing with those? I considered mass artifact removal (such that it exists in these colors), but that kind of turns off my strategy. I guess there is spot removal (Nature's Claim and the like).
>Warping Wail
I haven't updated my decklist, but I took out all the fetches. Aven Mindcensor just stops my creature tutors, which I think I'm okay with. Again, I may regret this
Hadn't considered Uba Mask. Isn't this usually better in decks that manage opponents' hand size?
>Earthcraft
Considered this in an earlier draft that was a mix of combo elves (basically ramping into Craterhoof Behemoth for a quick win) and mana denial. As it stands, I don't think I have enough creatures to make it work, and I'm afraid that upping my creature count will force me to fold to wrath effects. I will tune that version a bit and post it later. I wanna see how the rocks version works out first though.
An early Hall of Gemstone basically shuts of Keranos for the entirety of the game. He can never cast his general, nor any of his fun big-mana multicolor spells. Unfortunately, that means he can't interact with the Norin player, whose turn-3 Confusion in the Ranks has prevented me from playing Awakening Zone or really doing anything else. Died a very slow death due to Norin + Purphoros, God of the Forge. Couldn't find World Breaker to deal with Purphoros, but even if I did, I would still need to manage Confusion in the Ranks. Had my general stolen immediately after Confusion in the Ranks was cast. Had no way to get her back, except wait for my opponent to play a 7th land (which never happened). Overall a very tough game.
Game 2
Me vs Norin, the Wary vs Naya Elves (essentially mono-G with a few choice red and white cards).
Again, the Norin deck has an amazing start with Mana Crypt followed by Pandemonium. The elves player basically can't cast anything, because it will all get shot down by Norin + Pandemonium. I do a little ramping until I can cast World Breaker to kill something or other. I don't remember, but it wasn't Pandemonium, which could have been a mistake. I wanted to keep the elf player out of the game, that's why I let it stay. For some reason, however, my opponents decided that this 5/7 do-nothing creature is too threatening. They gang up on me, despite Norin's inevitability with Pandemonium. I cast and flip Nissa several times, but she just keeps getting killed by Norin + Pandemonium. Kind of sad really. I don't draw into many stax elements, but I get a lot of ramp, letting me eventually Chord of Calling for Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger. Eventually, my opponents' teamwork pays off and I die. The elf player, who had essentially done nothing the entire game, wins by dumping his hand and killing the Norin player with his own Pandemonium. A pathetic game, really.
Lesson learned: This deck can generate a lot of mana, and very quickly. Sometimes I ended up in a position where it actually wasn't helpful for me. It might be worth removing some ramp and adding some stax.
Overall, I don't think that these two games are very representative of how this deck will ultimately perform. For one, having only two opponents meant that they could freely gang up on me without worrying about another player punishing them for it. There was also a lack of answers for the Norin player's shenanigans which could have been resolved with a fourth player. Finally, game two was essentially three mono-colored decks, which is extremely atypical in this format. Also, Norin's troll cards (like Tefferi's Puzzlebox) made it extremely difficult to sculpt a strategy. On the whole, the deck did not perform that well, but I don't think that can't be remedied by changing out a few cards.
You do need spot removal. Despite the upkeep cost and the high life payment, tornado is about the best option you'll get. It is particularly brutal with seedborne muse down.
I also feel that you would probably be better off with a few more mana critters instead of mana rocks. I concede that rocks are less likely to get targeted by removal than mana elves. On the other hand, mana critters double as attackers later in the game, make your creature tutors less dead draws, and break the symmetry of cards such as winter orb, ritual of subdual, and etc.
Some of the situation dependent powerful cards such as nature's wrath are well worth running. When they are needed, they are very needed. However, there are times when they are dead draws, too. One can mitigate this to a degree with holistic wisdom.
So I've been thinking about this deck a bit. I think it is a good idea to diversify my mana producers a bit in order to prevent losing to artifact destruction. It's also clear that I need more removal, specifically for, though not limited to, opposing mana rocks.
A quick explanation on the mana dorks I've chosen: I opted to avoid more efficient cards like Birds of Paradise or Llanowar Elves in favor of a few creatures that can produce GG. My thinking is that these will provide a better late-game advantage, though it could be a mistake. It might be worth trading out all but the most efficient mana rocks for the simple one-drop elves/birds. In either case, I want to continue running plenty of rocks to ensure I don't fold to wrath effects.
Alternatively, since I'm already running a fair amount of enchantments, I could add mana-producing auras along with a small enchantress subtheme to push for better card advantage. What do you think? Would that dilute the lockdown plan too much?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing with proxied cards at sanctioned events is good, actually.
I think most of these changes make sense, with a few exceptions: I understand cutting more efficient mana dorks for better late-game mana dorks, and I think that's ok to an extent, but I'd avoid cutting too many efficient, early game dorks. Those first few turns are just so important in a stax deck, you really want those early dorks to help you get online quick. Also, I don't know why you would think about cutting Crucible of Worlds. That card is a stax all-star, and I would urge you to reconsider.
As for the mana enchantments/enchantress subtheme, I think that's going to dilute your plan too much, so I would avoid doing that.
Don't look at me! I'm just sitting here drawing cards!
Why green stax?
In all honesty, I'm just curious as to whether or not it's any good.
Why Nissa?
Nissa, Vastwood Seer has a lot to offer. She's competitively costed, finds lands, and once she flips she draws cards. This makes her good at basically every stage of the game, and especially good once the board is locked down. Getting two draws per turn (one of which potentially just puts lands into play) means I'll always have card advantage as long as she goes unchecked. She's also not threatening by herself. Unfortunately, the fact that she is mono-green and an elf to boot makes her very threatening to opponents who assume you are playing some kind of combo elves deck, but much less so than other commanders in that category.
The Deck
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Elvish Mystic
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Llanowar Elves
3 Courser of Kruphix
3 Eternal Witness
3 Krosan Restorer
3 Reclamation Sage
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Master of the Wild Hunt
4 Oracle of Mul Daya
5 Acidic Slime
5 Seedborn Muse
6 Multani, Maro-Sorcerer
7 World Breaker
8 Terastodon
8 Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger
Instants (4)
1 Worldly Tutor
2 Warping Wail
3 Beast Within
3 Chord of Calling
Sorceries (9)
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sylvan Tutor
1 Traverse the Ulvenwald
2 Nature's Lore
2 Rampant Growth
2 Three Visits
3 Cultivate
3 Kodama's Reach
4 Skyshroud Claim
0 Everflowing Chalice
1 Expedition Map
1 Mana Vault
1 Meekstone
1 Sol Ring
2 Crawlspace
2 Grim Monolith
2 Mind Stone
2 Sphere of Resistance
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Thought Vessel
2 Winter Orb
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Mana Web
3 Orb of Dreams
3 Static Orb
3 Sword of Feast and Famine
3 Tangle Wire
4 Smokestack
4 Thran Dynamo
4 Trading Post
5 Gilded Lotus
Enchantents (10)
1 Carpet of Flowers
1 Mirri's Guile
1 Root Maze
2 Lignify
2 Sylvan Library
3 Awakening Zone
3 Hall of Gemstone
4 Freyalise's Winds
5 Tornado
6 Ritual of Subdual
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
5 Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury
Land (35)
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Dustbowl
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Rishadan Port
1 Rogue's Passage
1 Srip Mine
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Temple of the False God
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Wasteland
1 Yavimaya Hallow
24 Forest
You'll notice that I'm not playing Gaea's Cradle, Candelabra or Mana Crypt. That's because I don't have any, and won't in the near future.
Considerations
Crawlspace - Stax makes people mad, and that makes me a target. Crawl Space gives me the opportunity to mitigate at least some of the damage once I become archenemy.
Hornet Nest - same reasoning, but with deathtouch fliers. This at least gives me something to swing with for Nature's Will or Sword of Feast and Famine
Permeating Mass - same reasoning as above, except goofier
///
Anyway, thanks for taking the time to check out my list! I look forward to your comments and criticisms!
Blue lives don't matter in the slightest.
Also, I assume Personal Tutor should be Worldly Tutor, or something? You can't run a blue card in mono-green.
Edit: Also, why Genesis Wave? I understand that it can be a win-con, but I usually don't expect to get enough mana to make it worth it when I'm playing stax.
[Primer] Dralnu Control/Reanimator BU
[Primer] Jolrael, Empress of Beasts GG
Nath Stax BG | Borborygmos Enraged RG | Ladies of Magic UGW | Aminatou Control UWB | Enduring Ideal Zedruu UWR | Momir Vig Combo UG
Modern
Restore Balance RWUG
Kiki Chord RWG
I haven't tested it out yet. I wanted to get some feedback first before I meet with my group next. Stax is kind of unfamiliar territory to me.
I initially had Genesis Wave in version of the deck that skewed towards elves + Craterhoof Behemoth over mana rocks. The amount of mana that you can generate with cards like Priest of Titania plus untappers is just nuts, and since most of my stax is taxing or land locks, I figured I would be free to cast big X spells that win the game.
That being said, this version is significantly lighter on mana (even considering the rocks), so maybe Genesis Wave makes less sense. I'm opening to switching it out for something else. Any ideas?
Blue lives don't matter in the slightest.
Taking a closer look at your list, I think you're right that the deck still has the ability to produce a lot of mana, so GWave might be worth keeping. That being said, one thing you might think about running, regardless of whether or not you keep GWave, is Hall of Gemstone. It's a nice way to hold off control decks who want to be playing things on your turn, and your instant count is low, so it won't really hurt you. Sword of Feast and Famine can help you untap your own lands while everyone else is locked under the Orb. Finally, Ritual of Subdual is a mean card you might consider running.
[Primer] Dralnu Control/Reanimator BU
[Primer] Jolrael, Empress of Beasts GG
Nath Stax BG | Borborygmos Enraged RG | Ladies of Magic UGW | Aminatou Control UWB | Enduring Ideal Zedruu UWR | Momir Vig Combo UG
Modern
Restore Balance RWUG
Kiki Chord RWG
My worry with Sword of Feast and Famine is that, since my creature count is so low and most of them don't have evasion, there will be few opportunities to get value from connecting. But I'll give it a shot anyway and see. Now what to take out...
Blue lives don't matter in the slightest.
[Primer] Dralnu Control/Reanimator BU
[Primer] Jolrael, Empress of Beasts GG
Nath Stax BG | Borborygmos Enraged RG | Ladies of Magic UGW | Aminatou Control UWB | Enduring Ideal Zedruu UWR | Momir Vig Combo UG
Modern
Restore Balance RWUG
Kiki Chord RWG
I've decided to cut Mana Web for Hall of Gemstone. I want to make sure that the hate is symmetrical, and as jenncertainty pointed out, Hell of Gemstone also prevents opponents from playing on my turn. The one thing that makes me nervous is the fact that it also makes it easier for combo decks to combo unopposed, so I'll probably always be casting this after other lock-down effects.
I'll get a chance to try out the list this weekend and will be writing up a full report.
Blue lives don't matter in the slightest.
thanks for the input!
Did not know about Root Maze. Obvious inclusion.
Yes, Voltaic Key might end up doing very little. I wonder if it would be better to just have another rock. maybe Coalition Relic to make sure I have colored mana? Maybe Moss Diamond?
You're the second person to mention Ritual of Subdual. I'll be honest, I'm a bit skeptical because the cumulative upkeep cost is so high, but i will give it a shot. Nature's Wrath could be cool. I just wonder how often it is a dead card.
Like Cursed Totem but I don't know what to cut for it.
Mana Web: I didn't know that card was errata'd for all opponents, not just "target opponent". In that case it's an obvious inclusion.
Do you think I have enough creatures for Nature's Will? The low count is one of the reasons why I'm not running Sword of Feast and Famine, which could be a mistake.
This is a lot of stuff to add... is there anything in the list I have now that seems especially weak?
Also, what do y'all think of Trading Post? I figured it might be a way to make sure I have chump blockers without having to minus Nissa. More importantly, it lets me get back key artifacts that have gone to the graveyard (Tangle Wire, Winter Orb, etc.) at minimal cost.
Blue lives don't matter in the slightest.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
URXSurf's Up, Mizz Magnus!XRU
URGWKynaios and Tiro's Multiplayer MenagerieWGRU
@Welgo - I agree. But what to cut? I'm looking at Tooth and Nail or Genesis Wave, actually. I don't think I run enough game-ending threats for either to really be that good.
Blue lives don't matter in the slightest.
URXSurf's Up, Mizz Magnus!XRU
URGWKynaios and Tiro's Multiplayer MenagerieWGRU
- Clock of Omens - as elfric pointed out, there are not really enough artifacts in my list to justify this card.
- Voltaic Key - see above
- Warping Wail - there are a few sorceries that will really mess me up, but I don't think it does enough in this list.
- Tooth and Nail - too expensive, and my creature quality is too weak to really justify. I'm happy with the tutors I have to find untappers/wincons.
- Genesis Wave - similar to Tooth and Nail. Best case I ramp out stax pieces. Worst case nothing relevant happens. Not enough threats to warrant.
- Wastes - This was initially hear as a tutor target to ensure I can cast Warping Wail or World Breaker. I have enough colorless producers that it's not really necessary.
+ Mana Web - Didn't see the errata. Obvious inclusion.
+ Root Maze - Didn't know it existed, actually. Obvious inclusion.
+ Trading Post - Too much value to ignore.
+ Ritual of Subdual - More land hate. Never played with it. Gonna try it out and see.
+ Cursed Totem - Only my creatures should get to do things.
+ Rogue's Passage - I may need a way to kill a player fast. Sage of Ancient Lore + Rogue's Passage could do the trick.
Still want to make room for Nature's Wrath and possibly Sword of Feast and Famine, but I dunno what to cut.
Blue lives don't matter in the slightest.
Almost every time I play Seedborn Muse in a deck with no counterspells, it is either copied, killed and reanimated or stolen. It seems my opponents get better use of it than me. It could really help your opponents get out of the lock if they control it. It is good in a deck like Yisan, where you only need to play it at the end of your opponents end step and go wild and win. In a slow controlling deck, more often than not, somebody else will control it.
Multani, Maro-Sorcerer is a scary card if you can play it early. I played with a person who constantly got it out 3rd or 4th turn, if you don't have a chumper out, you are dead. Many times people had to play their generals before they were ready to. Could be a stack piece in a weird way.
why is Tree of Tales there? I don't see any advantage over a basic Forest.
Tsabo's Web is a non-combo with almost a third of your lands that are not fetches.
Tireless Tracker is too good to leave out with Smokestack, Tangle Wire and Trading Post. Plus the creature is still good with out these cards.
Also, you have 9 fetches and 7 forest searches for 16 forest. I would up the basic lands, you will run out of targets for your searches. I often see mono green decks playing 20 to 24 Forest out 34 to 40 lands
Knowing what is on the top of your deck is very strong with Nissa, consider Courser of Kruphix and Mirri's Guile
I would play more artifact hate, and graveyard hate
@midorimage: as elfric pointed out, Seedborn Muse is there to break the symmetry with Winter Orb, Static Orb and Freyalise's Winds. You're right that, if it gets taken, I'm in a very, very bad spot. But I also need to be able to keep up a mana advantage.
I had Tree of Tales in solely for its interaction with Mox Opal, but I think you're right that a basic Forest would probably be better.
Regarding Tireless Tracker: This card seems really good. I hadn't thought about it before. Might slot it in, but I might also try Tamiyo's Journal instead as a way to tutor for cards later in the game.
I was considering Sensei's Divining Top earlier today. How does that compare to Mirri's Guile? Which is stronger here?
@Hunding Gjornerson: I agree that Regrowth isn't that strong. I have Trading Post, and that'll just have to do for bringing back orbs and the like. It will come out. If I really need something, I can always tutor Eternal Witness instead.
I do disagree, however, regarding Magus of the Candelabra. Without Seedborn Muse in play, I need a way to break parity by untapping more lands. Magus does this, though admittedly somewhat poorly.
Other considerations:
I imagine that Lotus Cobra, Quirion Ranger and Scryb Ranger will not pull their weight. I'm preemptively taking them out along with Regrowth.
In their place, I'll tentatively add: Crawlspace, Sylvan Safekeeper (good with Titania, good with creature wincons), Tamiyo's Journal and Mirri's Guile. Also considering Omnath, Locus of Mana, but not sure yet. It's a good way to load up with mana before casting land hate, but he also has such a huge target on his head that it might not be worth it.
Blue lives don't matter in the slightest.
URXSurf's Up, Mizz Magnus!XRU
URGWKynaios and Tiro's Multiplayer MenagerieWGRU
1 Elvish Pioneer
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Lotus Cobra
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Multani's Acolyte
1 Elvish Visionary
1 Wall of Blossoms
1 Wall of Roots
1 Gatekeeper Vine
1 Sylvan Ranger
1 Farhaven Elf
1 Wood Elves
1 Yavimaya Granger
1 Yavimaya Dryad
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Civic Wayfinder
1 Borderland Ranger
1 Carven Caryatid
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Nullmage Advocate
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Azusa, Lost but Seeking
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
1 Keeper of Progenitus
1 Nylea, God of the Hunt
1 Stone-Seeder Hierophant
1 Seedborn Muse
1 Patron of the Orochi
1 Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger
1 Extraplanar Lense
1 Vernal Bloom
1 Cloudstone Curio
1 Aluren
1 Earthcraft
1 Natural Order
Turbo:
1 Burgeoning
1 Exploration
1 Gaea's Touch
1 Rites of Flourishing
1 Heartwood Storyteller
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Well of Knowledge
1 Anvil of Bogardan
1 Howling Mine
1 Horn of Greed
1 Font of Mythos
1 Teferi's Puzzle Box
1 Storm Cauldron
Stax
1 Root Maze
1 Orb of Dreams
1 Meekstone
1 Winter Orb
1 Static Orb
1 Storage Matrix
1 Tangle Wire
1 Mana Web
1 Hall of Gemstone
1 Freyalise's Winds
1 Ritual of Subdual
1 Elephant Grass
1 Elderscale Wurm
1 Skullwinder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Season's Past
Mana:
1 Sol Ring
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Maze of Ith
1 Strip Mine
1 Buried Ruin
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Khalni Garden
27 Snow-Covered Forest
>muse seems essential here to break those orb symmetries.
On paper Seedborn Muse looks strong, but you are playing with three other people who would love to have their own. It won't last too long on your side of the battlefield, or at least be the only one that controls one. Your deck doesn't really have a way to make a quick instant lock, there will be plenty of time to steal Seedborn. Gilded Drake, Clones, Snuff Out/Reanimate
>But I also need to be able to keep up a mana advantage.
Green has many ways to gain and exploit mana advantage... how about Wild Growth, Utopia Sprawl and the like? Enchantment stay longer than mana rocks. Good Synergy with Garruk and Earthcraft.. Try to up your devotion to green and play Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx. (If you don't have a Cradle)
Quirion Ranger / Scryb Ranger need something strong to untap, maybe an Arbor Elf or another Mana Dork
Warping Wail gets rid of Aven Mindcensor.. which cripples many green decks. It looks like a quarter of your deck are cards that search.
Orb of Dreams / Rootmaze and fetches are bad together.
If you can't get rid of your opponents' mana rocks, Winter Orb isn't as busted as it seems. BTW, Winter Orb got errata again...
It is now if it is tapped on your upkeep, you can untap your lands.
Uba Mask might be good as a lock piece, it works well with a flipped Nissa.
>on muse
you could be right that it's a liability. I'm going to keep it in for now and see how testing goes tomorrow. If I end up kicking myself... well then you can say "I told you so"
One way around it might be Blinkmoth Well. It allows me to tap either Winter Orb or Static Orb at the end of my opponent's turn and untap all lands. What do you think?
>green mana enchantments
not too keen on these, actually. I want to keep my lands around (both for mana advantage and to ensure I can flip nissa if she dies), and I find that these enchantments come with a huge target on them. I'm not saying that it's necessarily the right play to wasteland a basic forest with a wild growth attached, but it is something that people will do, and I'm not keen on losing two cards (one being a land) considering how low the land quality in the deck is.
>opposing rocks
how would you recommend dealing with those? I considered mass artifact removal (such that it exists in these colors), but that kind of turns off my strategy. I guess there is spot removal (Nature's Claim and the like).
>Warping Wail
I haven't updated my decklist, but I took out all the fetches. Aven Mindcensor just stops my creature tutors, which I think I'm okay with. Again, I may regret this
Hadn't considered Uba Mask. Isn't this usually better in decks that manage opponents' hand size?
>Earthcraft
Considered this in an earlier draft that was a mix of combo elves (basically ramping into Craterhoof Behemoth for a quick win) and mana denial. As it stands, I don't think I have enough creatures to make it work, and I'm afraid that upping my creature count will force me to fold to wrath effects. I will tune that version a bit and post it later. I wanna see how the rocks version works out first though.
Blue lives don't matter in the slightest.
Game 1
Me vs Norin, the Wary vs Keranos, God of Storms
An early Hall of Gemstone basically shuts of Keranos for the entirety of the game. He can never cast his general, nor any of his fun big-mana multicolor spells. Unfortunately, that means he can't interact with the Norin player, whose turn-3 Confusion in the Ranks has prevented me from playing Awakening Zone or really doing anything else. Died a very slow death due to Norin + Purphoros, God of the Forge. Couldn't find World Breaker to deal with Purphoros, but even if I did, I would still need to manage Confusion in the Ranks. Had my general stolen immediately after Confusion in the Ranks was cast. Had no way to get her back, except wait for my opponent to play a 7th land (which never happened). Overall a very tough game.
Lesson learned: I think I need to make room for Reclamation Sage and Acidic Slime. As it stands, I have a few ways to deal with artifacts/enchantments/opposing rocks (Beast Within, Song of the Dryads, Terastodon and World Breaker), but I think it would be a good idea to add a few more.
Game 2
Me vs Norin, the Wary vs Naya Elves (essentially mono-G with a few choice red and white cards).
Again, the Norin deck has an amazing start with Mana Crypt followed by Pandemonium. The elves player basically can't cast anything, because it will all get shot down by Norin + Pandemonium. I do a little ramping until I can cast World Breaker to kill something or other. I don't remember, but it wasn't Pandemonium, which could have been a mistake. I wanted to keep the elf player out of the game, that's why I let it stay. For some reason, however, my opponents decided that this 5/7 do-nothing creature is too threatening. They gang up on me, despite Norin's inevitability with Pandemonium. I cast and flip Nissa several times, but she just keeps getting killed by Norin + Pandemonium. Kind of sad really. I don't draw into many stax elements, but I get a lot of ramp, letting me eventually Chord of Calling for Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger. Eventually, my opponents' teamwork pays off and I die. The elf player, who had essentially done nothing the entire game, wins by dumping his hand and killing the Norin player with his own Pandemonium. A pathetic game, really.
Lesson learned: This deck can generate a lot of mana, and very quickly. Sometimes I ended up in a position where it actually wasn't helpful for me. It might be worth removing some ramp and adding some stax.
Overall, I don't think that these two games are very representative of how this deck will ultimately perform. For one, having only two opponents meant that they could freely gang up on me without worrying about another player punishing them for it. There was also a lack of answers for the Norin player's shenanigans which could have been resolved with a fourth player. Finally, game two was essentially three mono-colored decks, which is extremely atypical in this format. Also, Norin's troll cards (like Tefferi's Puzzlebox) made it extremely difficult to sculpt a strategy. On the whole, the deck did not perform that well, but I don't think that can't be remedied by changing out a few cards.
Blue lives don't matter in the slightest.
I also feel that you would probably be better off with a few more mana critters instead of mana rocks. I concede that rocks are less likely to get targeted by removal than mana elves. On the other hand, mana critters double as attackers later in the game, make your creature tutors less dead draws, and break the symmetry of cards such as winter orb, ritual of subdual, and etc.
Some of the situation dependent powerful cards such as nature's wrath are well worth running. When they are needed, they are very needed. However, there are times when they are dead draws, too. One can mitigate this to a degree with holistic wisdom.
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
Cards I'm considering:
A quick explanation on the mana dorks I've chosen: I opted to avoid more efficient cards like Birds of Paradise or Llanowar Elves in favor of a few creatures that can produce GG. My thinking is that these will provide a better late-game advantage, though it could be a mistake. It might be worth trading out all but the most efficient mana rocks for the simple one-drop elves/birds. In either case, I want to continue running plenty of rocks to ensure I don't fold to wrath effects.
Cards I'm considering cutting:
Alternatively, since I'm already running a fair amount of enchantments, I could add mana-producing auras along with a small enchantress subtheme to push for better card advantage. What do you think? Would that dilute the lockdown plan too much?
Blue lives don't matter in the slightest.
As for the mana enchantments/enchantress subtheme, I think that's going to dilute your plan too much, so I would avoid doing that.
[Primer] Dralnu Control/Reanimator BU
[Primer] Jolrael, Empress of Beasts GG
Nath Stax BG | Borborygmos Enraged RG | Ladies of Magic UGW | Aminatou Control UWB | Enduring Ideal Zedruu UWR | Momir Vig Combo UG
Modern
Restore Balance RWUG
Kiki Chord RWG
Changes:
3 Song of the Dryads
1 Magnus of the Candelabra
9 Nullstone Gargoyle
5 Sage of Ancient Lore
4 Hedron Archive
2 Coldsteel Heart
5 Titania, Protector of Arogoth
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
4 From Beyond
5 Tamiyo's Journal
2 Tsabo's Web
2 Cursed Totem
0 Mox Opal
1 Tree of Tales
3 sword of feast and famine
4 nature's will
2 Warping Wail
3 Reclamation Sage
5 Acidic Slime
3 Courser of Kruphix
4 Master of the Wild Hunt
5 Tornado
6 Multani, Maro-Sorcerer
0 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Lignify
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Elvish Mystic
1 Expedition Map
There were two other cards removed, but I don't remember which they were. Sorry about that.
Comments/criticisms definitely welcome!
Blue lives don't matter in the slightest.