Razzliox has written a rather excellent primer on 5colorcombo based on a number of discussions raised in this thread, as well as from discussions he's participated in on reddit. You can read all about it there, as it goes into grand detail on the titan-loop combo: http://www.5colorcombo.com/modern/2016/10/10/gitrog.html
.
The Gitrog Monster - Hermit Druid Combo, but without the Hermit.
The Gitrog Monster is a beast of a card, with the "from anywhere" making it ridiculously easy to break. This clause means that Dredge cards can keep chaining themselves off each other, and that with a discard outlet, you can pitche the dredge card in front of the draw trigger, to up-end your entire deck into the graveyard. From there you can use the Dread Return combo of your choice to seal the game.
Luckily, it seems that free discard outlets are at a premium in BG, making this combo a bit harder. The thought is to use a Hermit Druid mentality, which is to be made simpler since the 'druid' piece is replaced by your Commander, making it easier to get to the combo. The idea is simple, once you have a discard outlet on the board, you can discard your dredge card in response to the monster's draw trigger in order to dredge, which will hit another land, and allow you to dredge again. In the event that you somehow stall on it, you can discard a land card, cycle a land, or sacrifice another land to keep going.
This deck is currently a working theory, to see how the pieces of the puzzle line up. Suggestions on better replacements, and ways to increase speed, are appreciated.
How the Combo Works
The basis of the combo, as said before, is to combine a card with dredge and a discard outlet to be able to put the entire library into your graveyard. From there, you can execute a game-winning combo of your choice.
Why are there so many different combos?
There are several different combos that you can choose to run. This will depend on the complexity you want for the deck, whether or not you want to be able to legally shortcut your loops, and whether you want to avoid 4 Horsemen situations.
Since Commander isn't a tournament sanctioned format, a lot of players are less concerned about avoid 4 Horsemen situations, and/or legal shortcutting. However, this list will follow strict adherence to both. My reasoning is simple. This is a Competitive list. There are Competitive venues for Commander (side events at major events/conventions, etc). What's the point of a competitive list, if you can't play it at competitive settings?
Thus, the lists I present are both capable of winning and avoiding the 4 horseman scenarios. That said, if you do not pay attention, understand the 4 Horsemen problem, or execute the loop poorly, the more complex combo can still hit 4 Horseman situations. It can be 100% avoided, if you pilot the deck properly.
First, the basic Combo
This is the heart of the deck, no matter what your win condition is. This is how you get your entire deck into the graveyard if you're using the easy combo, or into your hand for the infinite loop if you're using the more complex Titan-loop version.
The key interaction involves a dredge card, and a discard outlet. Preferably Dakmor Salvage, but otherwise the largest dredge card you can find. It is possible that even the large dredge cards can fail, though statistically unlikely. This is why Dakmor Salvage will be your primary tutor target for this portion of the combo. If you use a different dredge engine, always shift into the larger dredge card that you find, and always shift into Dakmor Salvage when you finally dredge into it.
Golgari Grave-Troll Loop
Starting with your Golgari Grave-Troll in your graveyard, a discard outlet, and The Gitrog Monster.
Discard a land from hand, or sacrifice one of your existing land to trigger The Gitrog Monster for a draw to get the combo started.
Replace the card draw with a dredge on your Golgari Grave-Troll, to dredge 6 cards, and return the grave-toll to hand.
Statistically speaking, you should have milled at least one land, which will trigger Gitrog. (if, by some miracle, you whiff, discard a land from hand, or sacrifice another land to continue, if able)
In response to the draw, discard your dredge card to the discard outlet.
Dredge again
Repeat steps 4-6.
Dakmor Salvage Loop
This loop is very similar to the Grave-Troll, except that the very act of discarding the Salvage will trigger a draw, allowing you to immediately return it to your hand. Anytime you dredge lands results in an extra draw to your hand.
Starting with your Dakmor Salvage in your hand, a discard outlet, and The Gitrog Monster.
Discard a your Dakmor Salvage to trigger The Gitrog Monster for a draw.
Replace the card draw with a dredge on your Dakmor Salvage, returning it to hand.
If you dredge lands, draw a card.
Repeat steps 2-3.
!
Note: Be careful as you near the end of your library. You cannot dredge if you don't have enough cards as the dredge amount in the library. You can alternate different dredge cards to get closer, but also be careful of dredging the exact amount. Nothing is more embarrassing than dredging a land on the empty library (or saccing a land, or saccing Dryad arbor) and triggering a draw on Gitrog to lose the game. Pay attention to the last few cards in the library, and what triggers Gitrog will have as you execute your combo. If you have enough lands in hand (perhaps by drawing them once you hit the Salvage for your loop), you can simply discard those one at a time to draw the last few cards.
The simplest form of the combo involves few fancy tricks. If you still have any combo pieces in your hand after milling your library following the steps above, just discard them.
Now the combo uses the old standbys of the Hermit Druid decks to pull a combo from the graveyard to win. The simplest is simply a Necrotic Ooze combo.
Necrotic Ooze
This is the kill combo of choice for my decklist below. Since your Graveyard has all your combo pieces, use The Gitrog's extra land drop to return Bloodghast to the battlefield (if needed). Sacrifice 3 creatures (probably Gitrog + sac outlet + Bloodghast) to cast Dread Return for its flashback cost, and return Necrotic Ooze.
Necrotic Ooze can now discard a card for a B thanks to Skirge Familiar. Use that to activate haste thanks to Skitheryx, the Blight Dragon's ability. Now your necrotic ooze has haste. Tap it for G thanks to Devoted Druid (or any color Birds of Paradise). Untap it by putting a -1/-1 counter on it (Devoted Druid) use the G to remove the counter and give it +3/+3 (Quillspike). This makes an infinitely large Ooze. This means you can put infinite -1/-1 counters on it, to untap it infinite times, and make infinite mana. Now you can use the ability granted from Bloodrite Invoker to kill everyone. ((ALTERNATE: sac a forest and swamp to return Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord, and then sac your infinitely large Ooze for the kill)).
Note: This combo is finite. If someone gains enough life, you won't win. You may need to tailor the creature counts in the deck to have enough mana from Songs. You can also add Tendrils of Agony to get a bit more damage in, from casting all the mana rocks/rituals.
DECK 2 - TITAN LOOP COMBO
Since I never got around to copying over the titan loop steps (they're somewhere further in the thread) to the op, why don't you go check out Razzliox's primer on 5colorcombo, which distilled it all nicely for us? http://www.5colorcombo.com/modern/2016/10/10/gitrog.html
Lets work on this project. The second I saw this card, I decided that I had to build it.
Just in case your combo isn't going to work, I would recommend some alternate 'fair' strategy, and Titania, Protector of Argoth could be it. Buried Alive and Entomb need to be here. We need removal spells to force Tormod's Crypt to crack early, and deal with Rest in Peace. We have plenty of options.
You've overcosted the frog in your decklist. It's 5 CMC, not 6.
Someone mentioned Raven's Crime in the new card discussion thread. While retrace spells in general seem solid, that one in particular supports combo frog pretty well. Eats answers, digs for combo pieces, and plays well with being dredged.
Culling the Weak seems too cute. Quick count gives 22 creatures total, 5 or 6 of which either produce more mana on their own or cost enough that the acceleration is relatively insignificant. Obviously best with Dryad Arbor, but that's pretty inconsistent even with all of the fetches.
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[Pr]Jaya | Estrid | A rotating cast of decks built out of my box.
I've been building a deck like this for a while now and then the Frog Monster appears. Needless to say, I'm ecstatic.
As combo-friendly as he is, I personally wouldn't go down that road 100%, but rather use the resource denial route, and things like Titania.
Death Cloud seems fantastic, and I love your Dark Heart of the Wood inclusion, lol. Even though it's jank, I want to drop my foil version on the table and say "Dark Heart of the Wood."
That's why I put Thornling and Skytherix, in the list. I think Skyttles is the best of the bunch. This makes it so I don't need to worry about getting and casting the Crossroads, as the ooze will get the ability inherently.
Someone mentioned Raven's Crime in the new card discussion thread. While retrace spells in general seem solid, that one in particular supports combo frog pretty well. Eats answers, digs for combo pieces, and plays well with being dredged.
I was looking at the bloom, but was worried about not getting enough use out of it, but perhaps it's good enough on its own to get us started on our chain.
That storm land search instant may also be nice to fill up our hand.
Oh, you think the losers' bracket is your ally, but you merely adopted the scrub tier. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn’t 4-0 an FNM until I was already a man; by then, it was nothing to me but an extra pack to sell for store credit!
But you'd rather run the en-vec and the imp? If you run all of the dredge cards (which aren't bad in this build) you can loop forever as far as I'm concerned. Landing Dakmor Salvage is all you really need to get the juices flowing, using the draw triggered from discarding Salvage just to dredge it back. It has great synergy with Sylvan Safekeeper and is instant speed. You could essentially combo off the turn you drop Girtog, with 2 cards in hand. I would suggest a ROE Titan, like Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, it shuts off activated ability grave hate like Tomrods Crypt and Relic of Prognetious.
Insidous Dreams could also be an option. A 1 land hand with Dreams turns it into an instant speed Demonic Tutor. It also allows top-deck manipulation for dredge shenanigans. Sensei's Divining Top seems like a worthwhile inclusion as well.
Insidous Dreams could also be an option. A 1 land hand with Dreams turns it into an instant speed Demonic Tutor. It also allows top-deck manipulation for dredge shenanigans. Sensei's Divining Top seems like a worthwhile inclusion as well.
Discarding the land is part of the cost of Dreams so the draw trigger off the Frog resolves before you tutor I believe. But I'm no judge. Still not a bad tutor here though.
Skirge Familiar is kinda pricy at 5 mana but mills our library and makes a lot of many with any dreger in hand.
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The thread title says "No Hermit Needed" but is Hermit Druid actually unwanted here? You're already configured to have it win you the game, except for those basic lands. Seems like it would just lead to some quicker combos and/or draw out removal that would otherwise tag the Frog Horror.
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You would never guess, at the terrifying sight of the man, that Hunding was as charming a companion as one could wish for.
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Razzliox has written a rather excellent primer on 5colorcombo based on a number of discussions raised in this thread, as well as from discussions he's participated in on reddit. You can read all about it there, as it goes into grand detail on the titan-loop combo:
http://www.5colorcombo.com/modern/2016/10/10/gitrog.html
Luckily, it seems that free discard outlets are at a premium in BG, making this combo a bit harder. The thought is to use a Hermit Druid mentality, which is to be made simpler since the 'druid' piece is replaced by your Commander, making it easier to get to the combo. The idea is simple, once you have a discard outlet on the board, you can discard your dredge card in response to the monster's draw trigger in order to dredge, which will hit another land, and allow you to dredge again. In the event that you somehow stall on it, you can discard a land card, cycle a land, or sacrifice another land to keep going.
This deck is currently a working theory, to see how the pieces of the puzzle line up. Suggestions on better replacements, and ways to increase speed, are appreciated.
How the Combo Works
Why are there so many different combos?
Since Commander isn't a tournament sanctioned format, a lot of players are less concerned about avoid 4 Horsemen situations, and/or legal shortcutting. However, this list will follow strict adherence to both. My reasoning is simple. This is a Competitive list. There are Competitive venues for Commander (side events at major events/conventions, etc). What's the point of a competitive list, if you can't play it at competitive settings?
Thus, the lists I present are both capable of winning and avoiding the 4 horseman scenarios. That said, if you do not pay attention, understand the 4 Horsemen problem, or execute the loop poorly, the more complex combo can still hit 4 Horseman situations. It can be 100% avoided, if you pilot the deck properly.
First, the basic Combo
The key interaction involves a dredge card, and a discard outlet. Preferably Dakmor Salvage, but otherwise the largest dredge card you can find. It is possible that even the large dredge cards can fail, though statistically unlikely. This is why Dakmor Salvage will be your primary tutor target for this portion of the combo. If you use a different dredge engine, always shift into the larger dredge card that you find, and always shift into Dakmor Salvage when you finally dredge into it.
Golgari Grave-Troll Loop
Dakmor Salvage Loop
This loop is very similar to the Grave-Troll, except that the very act of discarding the Salvage will trigger a draw, allowing you to immediately return it to your hand. Anytime you dredge lands results in an extra draw to your hand.
Now you're ready to go into your win combo:
DECK 1 - SIMPLE COMBO: Easy Mode - Simple, Quick, Win
Now the combo uses the old standbys of the Hermit Druid decks to pull a combo from the graveyard to win. The simplest is simply a Necrotic Ooze combo.
Necrotic Ooze
This is the kill combo of choice for my decklist below. Since your Graveyard has all your combo pieces, use The Gitrog's extra land drop to return Bloodghast to the battlefield (if needed). Sacrifice 3 creatures (probably Gitrog + sac outlet + Bloodghast) to cast Dread Return for its flashback cost, and return Necrotic Ooze.
Necrotic Ooze can now discard a card for a B thanks to Skirge Familiar. Use that to activate haste thanks to Skitheryx, the Blight Dragon's ability. Now your necrotic ooze has haste. Tap it for G thanks to Devoted Druid (or any color Birds of Paradise). Untap it by putting a -1/-1 counter on it (Devoted Druid) use the G to remove the counter and give it +3/+3 (Quillspike). This makes an infinitely large Ooze. This means you can put infinite -1/-1 counters on it, to untap it infinite times, and make infinite mana. Now you can use the ability granted from Bloodrite Invoker to kill everyone. ((ALTERNATE: sac a forest and swamp to return Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord, and then sac your infinitely large Ooze for the kill)).
Mana into Exsanguinate
Start the same way to cast Dread Return, except your target is a Greenwarden of Murassa. Return a Songs of the Damned to hand. Cast it for lots of mana. Sacrifice the Greenwarden to Cabal Therapy. Return a Yawgmoth's Will to hand. Cast it. Cast Songs again. Cast Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, all your free mana rocks, etc. Many mana. Cast Exsanguinate. Win.
DECK 2 - TITAN LOOP COMBO
Since I never got around to copying over the titan loop steps (they're somewhere further in the thread) to the op, why don't you go check out Razzliox's primer on 5colorcombo, which distilled it all nicely for us?
http://www.5colorcombo.com/modern/2016/10/10/gitrog.html
Deck on deckstats: http://deckstats.net/decks/61658/452852-the-gitrog-monster-combo-no-he?lng=en
Deck on tapped out (for playtest): http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/the-gitrog-monster-combo-no-hermit-needed-1/
Discard - 6
1 Putrid Imp
1 Raven's Crime
2 Oona's Prowler
2 Oblivion Crown
2 Wild Mongrel
5 Scourge Familliar
sac - 6
0 zuran orb
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Rain of Filth
2 Constant Mists
2 Squandered Resources
4 Jarad, golgari lich lord
Tutor - 9
0 Summoner's Pact
1 Imperial Seal
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Worldly tutor
1 Entomb
2 insidious dreams
2 Demonic Tutor
2 Sylvan Scrying
1x Green Sun's Zenith
Dredge - 4
1 Darkblast - 3
2 Life from the loam - 3
3 Stinkweed imp - 5
5 Golgari Grave-Troll - 6
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Fyndhorn elves
1 Joraga Treespeaker
1 llanowar evles
1 elvish mystic
1 Elves of deep shadow
2 Devoted Druid
Disruption 8
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Duress
1 Nature's Claim
1 Natural State
1 Pithing Needle
1 Thoughtseize
2 Abrupt decay
2 Krosan Reclamation
Mana - 12
0 Chrome Mox
0 lion's eye diamond
0 lotus petal
0 Mana Crypt
0 Mox Diamond
1 Burgeoning
1 Cull the Weak
1 Exploration
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
2 Geth's Verdict
3 Necromancy
11 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
Draw - 4
2 Dark Confidant
2 Sylvan Library
2 night's whisper
3 Necropotence
Land - 40
1 Lake of the dead
1 Ebon Stronghold
1 Havenwood Battleground
5 cycling lands
7 fetch lands
2 basic fetch lands
1 bayou
1 overgrown tomb
1 dryad arbor
1 golgari rot farm
8 forest
7 swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of yawgmoth
1 Lotus Vale
1 Dakmor salvage
1 Bazaar of Baghdad
Discard - 6
1 Putrid Imp
1 Raven's Crime
2 Oona's Prowler
2 Oblivion Crown
2 Wild Mongrel
5 Scourge Familliar
sac - 5
0 zuran orb
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Rain of Filth
2 Squandered Resources
4 Jarad, golgari lich lord
Tutor - 8
0 Summoner's Pact
1 Imperial Seal
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Worldly tutor
1 Entomb
2 Demonic Tutor
2 Sylvan Scrying
1x Green Sun's Zenith
Dredge - 4
1 Darkblast - 3
2 Life from the loam - 3
3 Stinkweed imp - 5
5 Golgari Grave-Troll - 6
mana dorks - 6
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Fyndhorn elves
1 Joraga Treespeaker
1 llanowar evles
1 elvish mystic
1 Elves of deep shadow
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Duress
1 Nature's Claim
1 Pithing Needle
1 Thoughtseize
2 Abrupt decay
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Krosan Reclamation
Mana - 12
0 Chrome Mox
0 lion's eye diamond
0 lotus petal
0 Mana Crypt
0 Mox Diamond
1 Burgeoning
1 Cull the Weak
1 Exploration
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
Combo - 7
2 Bloodghast
4 Dread Return
5 Necrotic Ooze
3 Quillspike
2 Devoted Druid
3 Bloodrite Invoker
5 Skytherix, the Blight Dragon
2 Dark Confidant
2 Sylvan Library
2 night's whisper
3 Necropotence
Land - 39
1 Lake of the dead
1 Ebon Stronghold
1 Havenwood Battleground
5 cycling lands
7 fetch lands
2 basic fetch lands
1 bayou
1 overgrown tomb
1 dryad arbor
1 golgari rot farm
7 forest
7 swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of yawgmoth
1 Lotus Vale
1 Dakmor salvage
1 Bazaar of Baghdad
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Just in case your combo isn't going to work, I would recommend some alternate 'fair' strategy, and Titania, Protector of Argoth could be it. Buried Alive and Entomb need to be here. We need removal spells to force Tormod's Crypt to crack early, and deal with Rest in Peace. We have plenty of options.
I wonder if we should add Crop Rotation to find the salvage more easily, and Strim mine/Ghost quarter effects to kill it, or if that's too gimmicky.
Also, I wonder it Traverse the ulenwald would be worthwhile.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Horn of Greed, Summer Bloom and Amulet of Vigor may all be worth slots here. Recycle/Null Profusion could let us storm off.
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
some ideas for cards for the deck.
edge of autumn: ramp or late game double draw with cycle (double from commander trigger)
grimoire of the dead: alt-win con
undead gladiator: recurring draw effect and discard effect
silverglade pathfinder: recurring rampant growth with discard
My Blog - contains my decklists
Uril, The Miststalker
Frankie Peanuts - needs to move to multiplayer.
maybe Harrow...
..
Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
Possible additions?
WBG Karador GBW
R Daretti R
RG Omnath GR
WRG Modern Burn GRW
WB Modern Tokens BW
DCI Rules Advisor as of 5/18/2015
Someone mentioned Raven's Crime in the new card discussion thread. While retrace spells in general seem solid, that one in particular supports combo frog pretty well. Eats answers, digs for combo pieces, and plays well with being dredged.
Culling the Weak seems too cute. Quick count gives 22 creatures total, 5 or 6 of which either produce more mana on their own or cost enough that the acceleration is relatively insignificant. Obviously best with Dryad Arbor, but that's pretty inconsistent even with all of the fetches.
As combo-friendly as he is, I personally wouldn't go down that road 100%, but rather use the resource denial route, and things like Titania.
Death Cloud seems fantastic, and I love your Dark Heart of the Wood inclusion, lol. Even though it's jank, I want to drop my foil version on the table and say "Dark Heart of the Wood."
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
sylvan safekeeper provides protection + a land sac outlet.
scapeshift is just great.
A couple random cards to keep your creative juices flowing: rain of filth, horn of greed, and reprocess.
And I can't help but be reminded of the best deck one year a long time ago, which used squandered resources, natural balance, and cadaverous bloom.
My G Yisan, the Bard of Death G deck.
My BUGWR Hermit druid BUGWR deck.
That's why I put Thornling and Skytherix, in the list. I think Skyttles is the best of the bunch. This makes it so I don't need to worry about getting and casting the Crossroads, as the ooze will get the ability inherently.
I saw that, I like it. I'll add it.
I like it.
LED is concerning, because I'd like to have lands in hand to pitch, or play when I drop the commander. May be good enough still though.
He's already in the list, under the sac outlets.
Rain of Filth is perfect! I'll replace culling with it.
I was looking at the bloom, but was worried about not getting enough use out of it, but perhaps it's good enough on its own to get us started on our chain.
That storm land search instant may also be nice to fill up our hand.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
EDIT: Add Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth to go with Lake of the Dead?
Discarding the land is part of the cost of Dreams so the draw trigger off the Frog resolves before you tutor I believe. But I'm no judge. Still not a bad tutor here though.
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
I am so happy
when I am in text book someday, today is the day when it all started to make sense.
[center][color=Blue]
Edric Spy and die
Azami the lady of the draw
Naya Zoo
Past decks
Orloro
sharuum the hegemond
Mono black control
splinter twin
Did I write something useful? Leave a like.
Any new cool Daretti cards printed in the latest set? Tell me about it!
Rules Advisor
Here's the link: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/autocardanywhere/eobkhgkgoejnjaiofdmphhkemmomfabg?hl=en
Maybe Dosan the Falling Leaf too. Petrified Field is probably too cute. Chains of Mephistopheles does something, not sure if good or bad.
Not a fan of 4 mana draw spells.
I'm just spitballing here, and my build probably won't be Dark Rit fast:
Urborg + Coffers,
Svogthos, the Restless Tomb
Rain of Filth into Army of the Damned. So metal! And Rain is so very synergistic with the Frog, Titania as well.
Perilous Forays + Bloodghast. Amulet of Vigor, Squandered Resources, Crucible, lands like Coffers, Havenwood Battleground, Dakmor Salvage, etc.
Genesis or Oversold Cemetery
Grim Discovery
Lotus Vale, and Mana Reflection/Zendikar Resurgent. Lake of the Dead with Mana Reflection!
Recycle, Horn of Greed, Azusa, Filth, Rude Awakening
It's just redonk the Frog has Exploration + that dredge-draw...