I have been playing Derevi since its release but I have yet to test a full tax list.
I usually finish games with a lot of flying creatures + true conviction ( high casting cost but double derevi's triggers.) Usually tutored with Academy Rector
I also love abusing the latest combat ruling with reconnaissance. You should definitively give it a try as it allow you to swing with all creatures, remove from combat those you are about to lose, then remove from combat those who dealt damage to your opponent after they dealt their damage.
Then you use your Derevi's triggers to tap opponents land or untap your blue mana source in order to pay for stasis upkeep. One of my favorite card in Derevi.
Excuse me if I'm being thick, but wouldn't removing your creature from combat negate any triggered ability afterwards?
Excuse me if I'm being thick, but wouldn't removing your creature from combat negate any triggered ability afterwards?
The combat phase has five steps:
1) Beginning of combat
2) Declare attackers
3) Declare blockers
4) Combat damage
5) End of combat
Your creatures deal damage (and thus trigger Derevi) in step 4, but they're treated as attacking through the whole phase. The Reconnaissance trick works by removing creatures from combat in step 5, when damage is already done and triggers already happened.
I also love abusing the latest combat ruling with Reconnaissance. You should definitively give it a try as it allow you to swing with all creatures, remove from combat those you are about to lose, then remove from combat those who dealt damage to your opponent after they dealt their damage.
Then you use your Derevi's triggers to tap opponents land or untap your blue mana source in order to pay for stasis upkeep. One of my favorite card in Derevi.
I know about this trick, but I haven't tried Reconnaissance yet for two reasons:
1) Stasis locks do happen from time to time, but they're pretty rare. I already have three Stasis breakers while having only one Stasis itself - I'd rather have the second seesaw than the fourth way to break it.
2) Outside Stasis locks Reconnaissance doesn't really solve any of my problems. I don't need it to break the usual Orb effect + taxes lock, because Derevi does that by herself. Against spellslingers it doesn't do much, because they don't have many creatures to block (and I have a good matchup against spellslingers anyway). I'd much rather have something to help me against creature decks - like a second Linvala or a second Willbreaker - than something as narrow as Reconnaissance.
[quote from="Baronvonbrauer »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/multiplayer-commander-decklists/677622-derevi-the-prison-queen?comment=72"]Excuse me if I'm being thick, but wouldn't removing your creature from combat negate any triggered ability afterwards?
The combat phase has five steps:
1) Beginning of combat
2) Declare attackers
3) Declare blockers
4) Combat damage
5) End of combat
Your creatures deal damage (and thus trigger Derevi) in step 4, but they're treated as attacking through the whole phase. The Reconnaissance trick works by removing creatures from combat in step 5, when damage is already done and triggers already happened.
I also love abusing the latest combat ruling with Reconnaissance. You should definitively give it a try as it allow you to swing with all creatures, remove from combat those you are about to lose, then remove from combat those who dealt damage to your opponent after they dealt their damage.
Then you use your Derevi's triggers to tap opponents land or untap your blue mana source in order to pay for stasis upkeep. One of my favorite card in Derevi.
Ahh, I see. I did a little research and it seems like they errata'd this card for a while, then removed the revision after they found it wasn't as broken as it seems?
Anyhow, as a first time Derevi player, I'm almost completely finished with my deck. It needs a couple things, (Living Plane, Noble Hierarch, Survival of the Fittest. [Savannah, Tundra and Tropical Island as I can save up for them]). But other than those, it seems to be testing quite well.
Would you guys be up for a little constructive criticism on what works for you, and what doesn't?
I took out Static Orb and Stasis, but am considering adding them back in.
Would you guys be up for a little constructive criticism on what works for you, and what doesn't?
I took out Static Orb and Stasis, but am considering adding them back in.
Since you're clearly on a different build than mine (much heavier, with less stax and some combo instead), I'll chime in only on things that are glaringly wrong to me:
1) I'm running 31 lands with 19 ramp pieces and the average CMC of my spells is 2.28 - I have two 5-drops and one 6-drop, the rest caps at four. You're running 30 lands with only 13 ramp pieces (Burgeoning doesn't count here) and the average CMC of your spells is 2.5 - you have three 5-drops, a 6-drop and a 7-drop. I could understand being that greedy with Paris mulligans, but under Vancouver this seems borderline suicidal.
2) What's Trophy Mage for? Right now it gets only Tangle Wire and Trinisphere, neither of which seems crucial enough to justify running such narrow tutor.
First of all I want to say this deck primer is amazing, I have always been into EDH but after reading this article I stopped all I was doing and started building this list. As I read this article I made this into my main (and only)commander which I am trying to build up. I have a large majority of the cards, however after test playing many games I find it difficult to deal with Blood Moon, Magus of the Moon, maybe it's just the Krenko in my play group getting that thing out around turn 1-2. But would you ever consider playing a Chromatic Lantern? In case you don't find a basic forest for rec sage//answer in this situation (Maybe I should just have a lantern on the side incase im up vs a potential blood moon matchup?)? Another question, how has Sun Titan been for you/have you ever tested him? I recently added him to my list and I find him pretty strong, and it helps me bring back my stax effect cards (ex Stasis) while also giving me a way to reuse fetch lands for mana ramp or just answers. I'm guessing because he just costs 6 mana and you don't want to risk a dead draw in your hand early game? Anywa great article!
I find it difficult to deal with Blood Moon, Magus of the Moon, maybe it's just the Krenko in my play group getting that thing out around turn 1-2. But would you ever consider playing a Chromatic Lantern? In case you don't find a basic forest for rec sage//answer in this situation (Maybe I should just have a lantern on the side incase im up vs a potential blood moon matchup?)?
Blood Moon is annoying, I agree. Fortunately I don't have to face it in my meta anymore, but I used to for quite a long time and it was quite irritating. The thing is, unless it comes down very early (turn 1-2), it's not that hurtful because by turn 3 you should have either some mana dorks or some disruption on the table, hopefully both. I used to run a basic Island along with a basic Forest - I cut it some time ago for Carpet of Flowers, but if your meta is less blue and more bloodmoony, feel free to put the Island back (especially if you're running 6CMC Sun Titan), which would open the door for Cyclonic Rift. You can also swap Aura of Silence for Aura Shards - both can serve as answers for Blood Moon, but WG is easier to generate than WW.
Another question, how has Sun Titan been for you/have you ever tested him? I recently added him to my list and I find him pretty strong, and it helps me bring back my stax effect cards (ex Stasis) while also giving me a way to reuse fetch lands for mana ramp or just answers. I'm guessing because he just costs 6 mana and you don't want to risk a dead draw in your hand early game?
Basically I want all my creatures to be either mana, draw or disruption. Some time ago I decided to make an exception and put one piece of recursion into my list - the list of possibilities included Saffi Eriksdotter, Eternal Witness, Reveillark and Sun Titan. Ultimately I decided to run Llark: it flies, it brings back two things at once, it doesn't care about my Hushwing Gryff and it's a missing link in my Pod chain to Consecrated Sphinx (I almost never want to sacrifice Willbreaker, he's too good). I haven't tried Sun Titan personally, but on paper it seems pretty decent as well, so if it works for you, thumbs up.
I know, Toxic Deluge is a pretty good way to deal with my deck and a legitimately scary card. However, decks that run Toxic Deluge tend to be spellslingers of either combo/control or just pure combo variety, which isn't that frightening - for example I'd rather face three different Toxic Deluge decks than one Yisan.
It's waaay to slow. All my ramp cost either 0 or 1 mana - the only exception is Bloom Tender, which is ten times better than Shaman of Forgotten Ways and costs only two.
Dauntless Escort is just a dumb ground pounder with no evasion, Heroic Intervention is even worse - a very narrow spell that falls under all my taxes and requires keeping open mana. Selfless Spirit at least flies, so it's the best of these three, but it's such a narrow card that I don't see running it in a foreseeable future.
And last but not least: neither of these three protects me from Toxic Deluge that you mentioned earlier (nor from Cyclonic Rift, Elesh Norn etc.).
One small update: I finally removed Crop Rotation and put Mental Misstep in that spot (actually I made that move several weeks ago, but forgot to mention that). Crop Rotation was decent, but having only one and a half good targets was annoying - after drawing Cradle it was basically a dead card. Mental Misstep is never dead and saved me many times, so for now it stays.
Hey Vysogota, my list is almost identical to yours, however my playgroup has consecrated sphinx as a banned card, any suggestions? The card is insane so if I could play it I would. I have been testing howling mine(since I can tap it with my commander so I only get benefits). Maybe a cheap cost planeswalker I am not sure... Anyway thanks in advance!
my playgroup has consecrated sphinx as a banned card, any suggestions?
Yeah, convince them to drop this ban and go back to normal... Seriously, there are at least four cards in my list that should be banned waaay before Consecrated Sphinx.
I have been testing Howling Mine (since I can tap it with my commander so I only get benefits). Maybe a cheap cost planeswalker I am not sure...
Well, you definitely need another draw engine - Howling Mine is one option, you can also try Rhystic Study or Tamiyo, Field Researcher. Neither of these cards is on Sphinx level, but beggars can't be choosers, I guess.
would it fit to the most tight lockdown strategies?
I don't think so.
See, the whole point of fliers in my deck is that their purpose is twofold: they both affect the board (by taxing spells, hampering tutors, turning off activated abilities, drawing cards etc.) AND attack in the air, triggering Derevi ability. Nimble Obstructionist either affects the board (and even then only once) OR attacks in the air - it's never both. It's very narrow as a counterspell and very vanilla as a beater - I just don't see it fitting here.
Back in the day, when Prophet of Kruphix was still legal, I ran a small Wizard package containing Patron Wizard and Vendilion Clique among others. If you're interested in this kind of card - a flying beater with one-shot disruption effect - I think the Clique would serve your purpose better.
Most of the cards you mentioned don't make much sense in this deck, but let's dissect it one by one:
1) Manglehorn is usually just a bad version of Reclamation Sage. Artifacts I can handle quite effectively already (Null Rod & Stony Silence, also Kataki) and the main reason I'm playing RecSage is getting rid of enchantments, which Manglehorn can't do.
2) Quicksilver Fountain - I have no idea what this card could accomplish here. Seriously, either I'm blind or this has zero sense whatsoever.
3) Shaman of Forgotten Ways costs a whopping three mana, which disqualifies him on the spot (producing creature-only mana doesn't help him either). Sure, Joraga Treespeaker is definitely the worst of my mana dorks and I wouldn't mind to upgrade him, but he's still better than a three-drop.
4) Fatespinner is a bad card that doesn't do anything (90% of combo decks would just ignore it and kill you outside of combat), and Ethersworn Canonist hurts me more than most of my opponents. As for SotF/Shaman: I tried that already, this isn't the right deck for such cards (see elfric's post several pages back for explanation).
The only card I could actually consider is Minamo, School at Water's Edge. Untapping Derevi or Sakashima isn't worth the hassle and I don't play Yisan anymore, but untapping Captain Sisay or Cradle sounds way more attractive. The thing is, my mana base is stretched pretty thin already (I'm thinking about replacing Hinterland Harbor with either Tarnished Citadel or Undiscovered Paradise) and I'm not sure if Minamo is actually worth it - I might test it someday though.
thoughts on Growing Rites of Itlimoc its possibly another gaias cradle effect(after transformation) and in darevi i have no doubt you could trigger it. obviously its not as fast but would you consider it a budget version of the land or an additional copy?
thoughts on Growing Rites of Itlimoc its possibly another gaias cradle effect(after transformation) and in darevi i have no doubt you could trigger it. obviously its not as fast but would you consider it a budget version of the land or an additional copy?
Growing Rites of Itlimoc imo is to slow and another no creature spell wit converted mana cost 3 or greater (stax effect)
I think you might be confused on how it triggers its 3 or more creatures not cmc 3 or more. If you are referring to the casting cost of itlimoc I would like to remind you that the context was a second gaias cradle OR a Budget version for those of us who cannot afford a 300$ land. On a slightly tangential point 3 mana avoids trinisphere.
Excuse me if I'm being thick, but wouldn't removing your creature from combat negate any triggered ability afterwards?
When reconnaissance was printed, yes.
But since they changed the combat ruling, the creatures are still considered attacking even after they did their combat damage.
The same strategy is used in Legacy with Maze of Ith. Swing with a creature then untap it after damage is done to have a blocker.
The combat phase has five steps:
1) Beginning of combat
2) Declare attackers
3) Declare blockers
4) Combat damage
5) End of combat
Your creatures deal damage (and thus trigger Derevi) in step 4, but they're treated as attacking through the whole phase. The Reconnaissance trick works by removing creatures from combat in step 5, when damage is already done and triggers already happened.
I know about this trick, but I haven't tried Reconnaissance yet for two reasons:
1) Stasis locks do happen from time to time, but they're pretty rare. I already have three Stasis breakers while having only one Stasis itself - I'd rather have the second seesaw than the fourth way to break it.
2) Outside Stasis locks Reconnaissance doesn't really solve any of my problems. I don't need it to break the usual Orb effect + taxes lock, because Derevi does that by herself. Against spellslingers it doesn't do much, because they don't have many creatures to block (and I have a good matchup against spellslingers anyway). I'd much rather have something to help me against creature decks - like a second Linvala or a second Willbreaker - than something as narrow as Reconnaissance.
GWU Derevi, the Prison Queen UWG
The combat phase has five steps:
1) Beginning of combat
2) Declare attackers
3) Declare blockers
4) Combat damage
5) End of combat
Your creatures deal damage (and thus trigger Derevi) in step 4, but they're treated as attacking through the whole phase. The Reconnaissance trick works by removing creatures from combat in step 5, when damage is already done and triggers already happened.
Ahh, I see. I did a little research and it seems like they errata'd this card for a while, then removed the revision after they found it wasn't as broken as it seems?
Anyhow, as a first time Derevi player, I'm almost completely finished with my deck. It needs a couple things, (Living Plane, Noble Hierarch, Survival of the Fittest. [Savannah, Tundra and Tropical Island as I can save up for them]). But other than those, it seems to be testing quite well.
Would you guys be up for a little constructive criticism on what works for you, and what doesn't?
I took out Static Orb and Stasis, but am considering adding them back in.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/derevi-so-heavy/
it will either give you the game with living plane or kill your deck.
I took it out personally as I lost several game to it.
Otherwise, it look good.
Since you're clearly on a different build than mine (much heavier, with less stax and some combo instead), I'll chime in only on things that are glaringly wrong to me:
1) I'm running 31 lands with 19 ramp pieces and the average CMC of my spells is 2.28 - I have two 5-drops and one 6-drop, the rest caps at four. You're running 30 lands with only 13 ramp pieces (Burgeoning doesn't count here) and the average CMC of your spells is 2.5 - you have three 5-drops, a 6-drop and a 7-drop. I could understand being that greedy with Paris mulligans, but under Vancouver this seems borderline suicidal.
2) What's Trophy Mage for? Right now it gets only Tangle Wire and Trinisphere, neither of which seems crucial enough to justify running such narrow tutor.
3) Sun Quan, Lord of Wu costs an awful lot - I'm pretty sure there are cheaper ways to achieve a similar effect. With Survival of the Fittest I would probably just run Wonder, but even without Survival I'd look at Concerted Effort or Odric, Lunarch Marshal before touching Sun Quan (actually even Archetype of Imagination looks slightly better to me, because being an enchantment makes it fetchable by Academy Rector).
GWU Derevi, the Prison Queen UWG
Blood Moon is annoying, I agree. Fortunately I don't have to face it in my meta anymore, but I used to for quite a long time and it was quite irritating. The thing is, unless it comes down very early (turn 1-2), it's not that hurtful because by turn 3 you should have either some mana dorks or some disruption on the table, hopefully both. I used to run a basic Island along with a basic Forest - I cut it some time ago for Carpet of Flowers, but if your meta is less blue and more bloodmoony, feel free to put the Island back (especially if you're running 6CMC Sun Titan), which would open the door for Cyclonic Rift. You can also swap Aura of Silence for Aura Shards - both can serve as answers for Blood Moon, but WG is easier to generate than WW.
Basically I want all my creatures to be either mana, draw or disruption. Some time ago I decided to make an exception and put one piece of recursion into my list - the list of possibilities included Saffi Eriksdotter, Eternal Witness, Reveillark and Sun Titan. Ultimately I decided to run Llark: it flies, it brings back two things at once, it doesn't care about my Hushwing Gryff and it's a missing link in my Pod chain to Consecrated Sphinx (I almost never want to sacrifice Willbreaker, he's too good). I haven't tried Sun Titan personally, but on paper it seems pretty decent as well, so if it works for you, thumbs up.
Thank you, it's nice to hear that.
GWU Derevi, the Prison Queen UWG
I did not, for similar reasons that I stopped playing planeswalkers in this deck (not tutorable, cost a ton under taxes, uncastable under Teeg).
I know, Toxic Deluge is a pretty good way to deal with my deck and a legitimately scary card. However, decks that run Toxic Deluge tend to be spellslingers of either combo/control or just pure combo variety, which isn't that frightening - for example I'd rather face three different Toxic Deluge decks than one Yisan.
It's waaay to slow. All my ramp cost either 0 or 1 mana - the only exception is Bloom Tender, which is ten times better than Shaman of Forgotten Ways and costs only two.
Dauntless Escort is just a dumb ground pounder with no evasion, Heroic Intervention is even worse - a very narrow spell that falls under all my taxes and requires keeping open mana. Selfless Spirit at least flies, so it's the best of these three, but it's such a narrow card that I don't see running it in a foreseeable future.
And last but not least: neither of these three protects me from Toxic Deluge that you mentioned earlier (nor from Cyclonic Rift, Elesh Norn etc.).
Basically every mass removal I'm seeing in my meta costs about three mana - the most popular choices by far are Cyclonic Rift and Toxic Deluge, after that there's sometimes Anger of the Gods/Volcanic Fallout or Oblivion Stone. Once in a blue moon I see Supreme Verdict or Damnation, but that's very rare.
How can someone think that CMC7 enchantment is even close to playable in this deck is beyond me.
GWU Derevi, the Prison Queen UWG
GWU Derevi, the Prison Queen UWG
Yeah, convince them to drop this ban and go back to normal... Seriously, there are at least four cards in my list that should be banned waaay before Consecrated Sphinx.
Well, you definitely need another draw engine - Howling Mine is one option, you can also try Rhystic Study or Tamiyo, Field Researcher. Neither of these cards is on Sphinx level, but beggars can't be choosers, I guess.
GWU Derevi, the Prison Queen UWG
I don't think so.
See, the whole point of fliers in my deck is that their purpose is twofold: they both affect the board (by taxing spells, hampering tutors, turning off activated abilities, drawing cards etc.) AND attack in the air, triggering Derevi ability. Nimble Obstructionist either affects the board (and even then only once) OR attacks in the air - it's never both. It's very narrow as a counterspell and very vanilla as a beater - I just don't see it fitting here.
Back in the day, when Prophet of Kruphix was still legal, I ran a small Wizard package containing Patron Wizard and Vendilion Clique among others. If you're interested in this kind of card - a flying beater with one-shot disruption effect - I think the Clique would serve your purpose better.
GWU Derevi, the Prison Queen UWG
1) Manglehorn is usually just a bad version of Reclamation Sage. Artifacts I can handle quite effectively already (Null Rod & Stony Silence, also Kataki) and the main reason I'm playing RecSage is getting rid of enchantments, which Manglehorn can't do.
2) Quicksilver Fountain - I have no idea what this card could accomplish here. Seriously, either I'm blind or this has zero sense whatsoever.
3) Shaman of Forgotten Ways costs a whopping three mana, which disqualifies him on the spot (producing creature-only mana doesn't help him either). Sure, Joraga Treespeaker is definitely the worst of my mana dorks and I wouldn't mind to upgrade him, but he's still better than a three-drop.
4) Fatespinner is a bad card that doesn't do anything (90% of combo decks would just ignore it and kill you outside of combat), and Ethersworn Canonist hurts me more than most of my opponents. As for SotF/Shaman: I tried that already, this isn't the right deck for such cards (see elfric's post several pages back for explanation).
The only card I could actually consider is Minamo, School at Water's Edge. Untapping Derevi or Sakashima isn't worth the hassle and I don't play Yisan anymore, but untapping Captain Sisay or Cradle sounds way more attractive. The thing is, my mana base is stretched pretty thin already (I'm thinking about replacing Hinterland Harbor with either Tarnished Citadel or Undiscovered Paradise) and I'm not sure if Minamo is actually worth it - I might test it someday though.
GWU Derevi, the Prison Queen UWG
I think you might be confused on how it triggers its 3 or more creatures not cmc 3 or more. If you are referring to the casting cost of itlimoc I would like to remind you that the context was a second gaias cradle OR a Budget version for those of us who cannot afford a 300$ land. On a slightly tangential point 3 mana avoids trinisphere.