Its been a while since I have posted much here so I figured I would go through and give some updates on some of my more recent list updates. Kozilek is going strong and it is now a deck that my playerbase dreads when I play lol. I have been updating my OP to submit a request for primer status so I guess we will see how that goes. I wanted to do some recap of some of my more recent changes and discuss some of the cards that went out vs the cards that came in just for kicks.
Blinkmoth Urn -> Warping Wail after seeing someone hit me a few times with artifact + creature wraths it became a bit more obvious that Blinkmoth Urn seems more and more like an over commitment card. Its cool when you have a ton of artifacts and are not getting blown up. Its also expensive to drop and hard to multi task in a turn because it does not give me mana back the same turn. It also gives mana to opponents first all of which kind of annoy me. Warping Wail on the other hand can give me that middle finger to Austere Command as well as give me a one time ramp bump if I want it.
Blinkmoth Urn I stand behind as having been winmore. I dont miss the card at all. Warping Wail I have seen a few times but I dont think I have used the counterspell option of it yet. Its kind of unproven but given that it can serve as a 2 mana one shot instant speed castable mana I am ok with its inclusion. It means that if drawn early I use it for mana to get to Kozilek and late I use it as an emergency block or sweeper protection. I dont think its "proven" itself to me yet but I have also not seen anything I feel I need more than this so I am ok with its inclusion still some time after making the change which is acceptable.
Pilgrim's Eye -> Lotus Petal the pilgrim's eye felt slower in execution than I was really happy with. This deck is very much about moving a lot of ramp very quickly and honestly I felt like the eye was a little too slow. I did like it as a chump block but I needed to be moving faster and getting in play rather than defending myself. Lotus Petal at first glance might seem a little underwhelming but it might be the difference of a turn faster ramping which can result in a turn faster Kozilek.
Mindless Automaton -> Hangarback Walker mindless is a little odd as I like the things it does but its a little slow to be honest. I dont really like using it as a blocker but the hand moving was just a little slower than I liked with it. I like the Walker because I could see myself dropping it early or late and still getting good results form it. It seems like a card that would work well with the big mana this deck can provide.
Trading Post -> Avarice Totem I was just never happy to see Trading Post. It was a little clunky, slow, and expensive to turn things over. I like the totem because its very cheap to just put in play and it can really screw with people with its theft option. I can always later swap out a strong threat for a mana stone if I am at 11+ mana and in the early game I can push it from hand quickly both of which I like.
Reliquary Tower -> Mox Diamond I wanted to try to lower my land count slightly. Honestly this deck does not need the tower as more than 7 cards seems to not ever be a real issue. The mox should help me a little with how aggressive I mulligan and it should move me faster into my other ramp elements.
Mirrorpool -> Chrome Mox same thing as above. I am too creature light / spell light to really use this land. I am hoping to speed up my first few turns and how quickly I establish my ramp game.
Pilgrim's Eye there are elements I miss about it I guess but its slow. Basic Wastes are boring and it fills up my hand rather than unloading it and it does so slowly so I think its for the best for me to just not have this anymore. Mindless Automaton if I had actually been using the discard of this guy I think I would have been more ok with him. I found myself too often paying 4 mana to draw a card which the grave hate artifacts just do better with. Trading Post I just didnt find myself using any of the modes really. It potentially could have been ok slow advantage for recovering artifacts but its just better to power forward with more ramp and draw. This card is too clunky and I dont need the emergency chump blocker enough to justify it. Reliquary Tower I dont miss it. My hand really never overflows given that my commander just fills my hand to full. The lowered land count has not been an issue so far but I also have not been really wanting to lower it further as of right now. Mirrorpool I never really used its utility so I dont miss it. The lowered land count has not been an issue so far but I also have not been really wanting to lower it further as of right now. Lotus Petal I haven't had any super clutch games with it yet. I still think it has potential but I have not seen any super amazing starts off of it. The hard part of this one is that it is really heavily favored to the early game since its once time mana. I am not sold either way yet. Hangarback Walker It has been so far ok. I cant think of anything game breaking in its favor but I also have not felt like it has been bad. I like that I can flexibly move it from hand if I am getting ready for Kozilek but I can also spend a turn on it if need be for something big. I really wish it had flying itself though to be honest because if there is a flying threat that is hitting me I could see myself not being able to pop it for the chump blockers. Avarice Totem so far, its been a little winmore but I am waiting for more results. I like that its sort of a versatile answer / threat. I like it in that I can purge it from my hand in the early game and later on I could screw with defenses and or offense options. I think it still has potential I just havent seen it much. Mox Diamond it has been good the little I have seen it. I saw it after someone wheeled once before my first cast of Kozilek and it was great there as it got played the turn Kozilek was coming down. Its a little bit similar to the Lotus Petal but it sticks around. Chrome Mox it was cut as I read it wrong lol.
Conduit of Ruin -> Walking Ballista so, the Conduit of Ruin has been a little less impressive than I have wanted it to be for some time now. It can really only tutor for one of two cards and both do sort of the same thing and its tutor to topdeck which has really kind of sucked. I think the Ballista gives me something in place of something that has not really been working so I am interested in seeing its results.
Chrome Mox -> Universal Solvent I goofed when I added the mox and its not a card that works here. The solvent I am interested in from the perspective that I can get it into play early and not get things stuck in my hand when I go to play kozilek. It is similar in some ways to Unstable Obelisk in that the oblisk is not really good ramp so you drop the ramp element of the card but make it cost less so its easier to get in with excess mana in a turn rather than spending a turn on it. I did consider cutting something like Spine of Ish Sah to make room for this but I needed to cut the mox and the Spine is still an interesting fetch option off of Planar Bridge which I am adding right now.
Chromatic Lantern -> Inspiring Statuary honestly both of these mana stones have pros and cons. The lantern only really becomes good if and when I get lands that do not tap for mana so shy of that its a really bad mana stone. Given the number of random artifacts that I just vomit into play I think this new one really helps me play Kozilek out faster so I suspect I will get more mana for casting my commander from it at the downside that it does not ramp into other ramp well. The lantern sucked at being ramp anyways so I think this is a fine switch.
Staff of Domination -> Planar Bridge I honestly had a hard time ever really using the staff. I was not playing the staff to go infinite and the one time I remember setting up the cards that could go infinite with it I did not execute any of the infinite combo with it. Given this and how usually, I am drawing fairly well in the deck I feel that the staff isn't the card that I really need in this deck. The bridge is a much better mana dump and it should give me both offense and defense in that I can toolbox better. Ugin is one of my most wanted cards for this deck so a tutor that can fetch Ugin seems great.
Conduit of Ruin I dont miss it at all. Its tutor was too awkward given it was a topdeck tutor and too selective. The ramp was just ok considering it costed too much. Chrome Mox I read it wrong in the first place so it never actually made it into the deck. Its too bad as I could use another mox in here. Chromatic Lantern it was kind of always underwhelming until I had 1+ lands that didnt tap for mana so I am fine without it. Staff of Domination I just have too much to do on average for the amount of mana it sort of requires to be good. I enjoyed the card but it required me to sort of do nothing in order to have options with it. Walking Ballista it has been good a few times already for me. I like it as an optional mana sink and its helped some combat tricks as well as anti token effects. Universal Solvent I have enjoyed its ability to just be put in play. It has been fine while still filling its role. Planar Bridge I have only seen it one time and that one time it was bonkers but its not been a very good average display of the card since it was a situation of Unwinding Clock plus tons of mana stones. I still have high hopes for it but that was not really a normal situation. Inspiring Statuary I have yet to see it. I am still optimistic though.
More importantly, I realized that I somehow forgot to update my list to include Inventors' Fair lol. It has been in since day one I just forgot to update my list. I also realized I forgot to update my list when I purged Myriad Landscape so I guess I will now just make assumptions and swap the two of them. I will have to check my list and see what is actually in and what is not some other time but for the time being they can just hi five each other and call it good.
DECK CHANGE:
Myriad Landscape -> Inventors' Fair this was just an oversight on my digital list but I cut Myriad Landscape a good while back since it cannot actually fetch wasts. Inventors' Fair has been in my actual list since it came out as well but I apparently forgot to update my digital list of its inclusion.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
First things first, I just got primer status for this list so yay (ok it was like a week+ ago and I didn't notice it get applied lol). I first built my list before Great Distortion was released so its been going strong for a year plus now.
I played a game last night after getting annoyed at some masterbatory green blue draw ramp value deck was making me mad. I ended up with an opening hand of 3 land, Thran Dynamo, Ur-Golem's Eye, Lion's Eye Diamond.
Turn 6 I attacked the blue green deck. The red token deck tried to shoot off some tokens which got countered. Turn 7 I then played a Sculpting Steel of Tangle Wire and hit the red player who kept up a Spinerock Knoll and my opponents scooped to me.
Anyways, got primer status which is cool. Feel free to ask any questions if you have any.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I'm curious about the absence of the Urzatron-I thought it would have been an obvious inclusion? Slowly building into this myself other than the really expensive things (which at present are turning into Wastes)
EDH, on the other hand, is more like a monster truck rally. It's more about the spectacle than the race, the games go long, and it's not usually clear who's in the lead until there's only one truck left.*
Single player EDH is like two guys smacking each other with pillows... until one of them pulls out a shotgun.
I'm curious about the absence of the Urzatron-I thought it would have been an obvious inclusion? Slowly building into this myself other than the really expensive things (which at present are turning into Wastes)
It is true that if you can assemble them it would be great here. I just dont really foresee myself getting full urzatron set up in a colorless EDH deck. I run like one tutor for lands and so it seems incredibly unlikely that I can find all three in this format. Due to that I tend to prefer lands that on their own are good. I could probably lower my waste count for them but I still dont feel like there is a very big chance of assembling it in a game.
I am glad to hear of another Great Distortion player. Let me know how it works for you.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I just thought I would start off by saying I got an opening hand recently that let me T1:CloudpostT2:Vesuva of Cloudpost. That game was kind of silly as I also had Mana Crypt, Mind Stone in my hand so it was a fast start regardless.
Just as kind of a quality of life update, I think I might be cutting Endbringer in the near future. I keep hoping that I can drop it into play and use it for a few turns but it seems that every time I have the kind of resources to toy with it I am too busy pushing around Kozilek and when I do cast Endbringer it often just gets removed. I dont have that change figured out right now but its been sort of something that has been a bit present as I push the card around in here.
Kozilek Hour of Destruction Set Review:
Crook of Comdemnation - So I like that its a stronger graveyard hate effect but in a lot of cases I run the grave hate that I do as somewhat of cheap cycling cards that can function as grave hate if I need them. Taking away the cycling portion of the grave hate this obviously is stronger grave hate but its more dedicated. I generally speaking move fast enough that I dont have a lot of fears when it comes to opposing grave hate. Somewhat of a random side note but its inclusion would make Oblivion Sower a little stronger but that seems rare that that would come up.
God-Pharaoh's Gift - the effect isn't half bad. If we had more ETB artifact creatures that didnt suck I could see it being alright. Ultimately I dont really see this card as something I am really going to consider.
Mirage Mirror - I like the effect but I dont think I really like the cost to activate every turn. It cant really turn into a mana stone very well considering on the high end my stones tap for 3 mana its just ok then. You could I guess clone Kozilek in response to theft... I just dont really see what I would do with this to be honest. I generally try to weigh cards based on what they do in relation to the deck itself and with all of the mana stones I just dont see the need for this.
Sunset Pyramid - its not a bad card but my issue is that generally speaking I am using my mana very quickly and its not that strong of a draw nor is it that repeatable. The amount of mana to turn over the first card being 4 mana is.... just ok but its slow and the investment per card drawn isnt that great. With something like Mind's Eye the first card is drawn at 6 mana but then it churns out cards kind of quickly. Its not that fast in how many cards it can draw and its not that efficient.
Endless Sands - ultimately I need to cycle Kozilek every now and then so protecting him by keeping up mana and then sacrificing a land does not sound appealing to me. Its better to keep land counts and recast him generally.
Scavenger Grounds - This looks like some really nice grave hate. I suspect I will try to make its way into the deck. I dont know how much I need it but I like its utility. I would never bring it in to replace any of the ramp based lands but possibly I would consider it in place of another utility land.
Ultimately, Scavenger Grounds is probably fairly good. Crook of Comdemnation is something to consider if you are having issues with graveyards but its a little more dedicated hate than the cyclers I run now. Mirage Mirror is an interesting card but I just cant figure out what its normal use would be that I could justify it. I will probably toy with the landbase and see if I cant make room for Scavenger Grounds.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Finally managed to get everything for the deck. Its hilarious. I've not found anything too cute, but the ramp is real. Its not feared yet-people are currently more concerned about my Sram deck than Kozi-but this deck is currently playing out awesomely at about the pace our LGS can handle.
EDH, on the other hand, is more like a monster truck rally. It's more about the spectacle than the race, the games go long, and it's not usually clear who's in the lead until there's only one truck left.*
Single player EDH is like two guys smacking each other with pillows... until one of them pulls out a shotgun.
Finally managed to get everything for the deck. Its hilarious. I've not found anything too cute, but the ramp is real. Its not feared yet-people are currently more concerned about my Sram deck than Kozi-but this deck is currently playing out awesomely at about the pace our LGS can handle.
Thats great to hear. As you get more familiar with the deck I encourage more aggressive mulligans with this deck because Kozilek can recover from being down a few cards its far more important to have a hand of land and ramp than anything else. Let me know if anything stands out as being clunky as you play it.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
A few months on, there's nothing here that doesn't quite work and manages to suit my local meta well. Against casual decks its dumb enough that people don't mind it being powerful, and against our top tier decks, it keeps pace-especially with aggressive mulligans. There's still a few cards I've not seen, but the only one I'm disappointed with is probably Inspirting Statuary-It's justt never really served a purpose whenever I've played it, but I think thats down more to luck than anything. It'd probably be the first card I'd remove if I ever get a Mox Diamond
EDH, on the other hand, is more like a monster truck rally. It's more about the spectacle than the race, the games go long, and it's not usually clear who's in the lead until there's only one truck left.*
Single player EDH is like two guys smacking each other with pillows... until one of them pulls out a shotgun.
Good to hear. I haven't done much testing of late so I don't know if I can say I have really gotten much testing in on Inspiring Statuary. Endbringer has been a little underwhelming for me of late but we rarely ever get anything new to consider so I have just kind of let him hang out. He is one of those creatures that if he sticks he can be great but for me every time I cast him he just seems to get removed. I almost did a set review for Ixilan for this deck but then I looked at it all and just kind of gave up. Its kind of unfortunate because I actually liked several of the artifacts for other decks but none of them really seem to fit for Kozilek.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Nice write-up, now I'm kind of interested in tossing together a Newkoz myself. Just a quick note - the Paradox Engine combo potential with Cloudstone Curio doesn't actually work as Curio specifies nonartifact.
Nice write-up, now I'm kind of interested in tossing together a Newkoz myself. Just a quick note - the Paradox Engine combo potential with Cloudstone Curio doesn't actually work as Curio specifies nonartifact.
Good catch, I will fix that. Let me know if you have any questions or anything I can help with.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Endless Sands - ultimately I need to cycle Kozilek every now and then so protecting him by keeping up mana and then sacrificing a land does not sound appealing to me. Its better to keep land counts and recast him generally.
You can think of Endless Sands as another sac outlet for Kozilek, since the first ability should send him to the command zone anyway. It can also be sacced to Scavenger Grounds when you need it.
Do you think Lotus Bloom is playable as the next best thing in place of the $$$ ramp?
You can think of Endless Sands as another sac outlet for Kozilek, since the first ability should send him to the command zone anyway. It can also be sacced to Scavenger Grounds when you need it.
Do you think Lotus Bloom is playable as the next best thing in place of the $$$ ramp?
You probably could play it as another sac outlet but I can only think of a few times I have ever wanted to sacrifice him and those times tend to be when my hand goes dead but I am flooded on mana or possibly to Miren if my life total gets low. I can only think of a few times that I have needed to sacrifice him for either reason. Most of the time if he is still in play he is getting work done and your opponents are dying. If you experience a higher consistency of theft is probably one of the few reasons to consider pushing up your sac options but even then there is still the issue that most of the lands require mana to activate them so the cost to cast him and keep a sac up is kind of heavy.
Lotus Bloom - its ok and if you already own one I think its probably fine to try it out. Being that its $10 I probably wouldn't buy a copy unless you get close to what you feel is an optimal build and run out of ideas. It definitely has a big issue that its really bad beyond the first turn or two but the upside is it jumps out of your hand when you suspend it so at least it gets out of the way for Kozilek to draw more cards. Really almost any ramp you can get your hands on is useful here so I wouldn't count it out but I also don't know that I would call it ideal since it really gets worse the later you draw it.
Hello ! With Dominaria expansion, how the deck (from the primer) will evolve at your opinion ? Thank you !
Given that this deck has a high density of mana stones and their current printing policies has taken a down powering to mana stones it makes it challanging from set to set for colorless to be all that interesting on an every set basis. Vehicles have been new and popular among some of their new sets as well which unfortunately is a mechanic that plays very poorly for Kozilek given there is no way I am tapping him to crew anything. Overall I would say the average set does not have that much to offer. There isnt a ton standing out for me right now with the upcoming set but I guess if I were to highlight a few things it would be:
Zhalfirin Void - its a no downside land with an ETB effect. I would say its sort of middle / low importance when it comes to utility lands but it has upside and has no real cost to run it. I probably will try to make room for it.
Mishra's Self-Replicator - So..... given we ramp hard and play tons of artifacts I could see some amusement by playing a mana stone and dumping like 8 mana to just poop bears everywhere off of this card. It seems slow though and it does not progress my primary plan at all which is why I think I probably will pass on it but I can see some humor in this card.
Blackblade Reforged - its a nice buff but it does take 9 lands before Kozilek goes to one shotting people which to be honest is way slower than I usually get him out and get going on people. It lacks evasion and it takes too long to power up in my opinion which all in all I think it results in me passing on it.
It has been somewhat rare for me to really see any pickup inclusions that have been all that good of late in recent sets. Most sets don't have that much emphasis on artifacts and mana stones have been getting weaker, vehicles are bad for kozilek, and equipment are extremely situational. Overall this leads to somewhat low turnover for this deck which is kind of unfortunate as I do like to play with new toys but even then this is one of the faster more ridiculous decks I own so its not like I really need it to power up and get stronger.
The only thing I've changed is replacing a Wastes with an Arch of Orazca. This takes me down to six which I'm pretty okay with, although I'm debating if I want to find room for City of Traitors
EDH, on the other hand, is more like a monster truck rally. It's more about the spectacle than the race, the games go long, and it's not usually clear who's in the lead until there's only one truck left.*
Single player EDH is like two guys smacking each other with pillows... until one of them pulls out a shotgun.
The only thing I've changed is replacing a Wastes with an Arch of Orazca. This takes me down to six which I'm pretty okay with, although I'm debating if I want to find room for City of Traitors
Yea, I might need to play with my wastes count myself. On the upside.... I am working on a trade in where I might offload my The Abyss + Nether Void and pick up a Mishra's Workshop. I am still playing with the numbers and figuring out what exactly I am going to move but a workstation seems like a likely option of where I go with it. I picked up the two black enchantments over two years ago now before they jumped and I have yet to use the cards in the time I have been sitting on them.
I need to circle back and look at my lands at some point. It just has not been a big focus for me of late with my LGS having closed down back at Christmas time.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I think with the lands whilst there's some auto-includes, such as any Sol-Land you can afford, Sanctum of Ugin and so on, you can actually play pretty hard and loose and do a bit of meta-tweaking. I'm currently trying to find a space for Thaumatic Compassbut there's nothing I can find to remove.
EDH, on the other hand, is more like a monster truck rally. It's more about the spectacle than the race, the games go long, and it's not usually clear who's in the lead until there's only one truck left.*
Single player EDH is like two guys smacking each other with pillows... until one of them pulls out a shotgun.
ISBPathfinder, I have been following your Edgar Markov thread. I saw where you referenced this deck and it's power level. Could you clarify where it resides on the power scale? Is it more powerful than your Edgar deck? Do you still think it is the best colorless commander?
ISBPathfinder, I have been following your Edgar Markov thread. I saw where you referenced this deck and it's power level. Could you clarify where it resides on the power scale? Is it more powerful than your Edgar deck? Do you still think it is the best colorless commander?
To put it into perspective, I stopped playing this deck because I felt too bad every time I played it. I very regularly with this list had a turn 4/5 commander and I think the fastest I recorded was either on turn 2 or 3. This deck is incredibly resiliant and hard to play against to the point that I would say while its not CEDH (in that vs fast combo it probably would still lose), I would put it close to but probably still just a little lower powered than a tuned Edric, Spymaster of Trest deck (in that I have built and played a tuned Edric in the past).
This deck was incredibly strong and in the time that I played this deck I probably did rack up some 30 or so games with probably an 80-90% win rate with this deck. I moved to a new location where a lot of their decks were not as tuned and so I felt even worse pulling this deck out against them. The end result was that I played this deck like.... once in the last year and eventually decommissioned this list but it is INCREDIBLY fun to play.... the problem is that for the most part it was above and beyond what people were ready to play against and so I did remove it eventually due to that.
The only other colorless commander I would even say might be similar in my mind is the other version of Kozilek. The reasons I really prefer this version though is that you have a much heavier ramp game which results in a faster commander play as well as potential for some control elements rather than attempting to just goldfish. The draw is variable on this one instead of always being 4 cards so its hard to say what the average draw but I would say I generally draw at least 4 cards and the only real issue I had is if I would land flood (in that I could not dump them fast enough). The annihilate 4 of the other kozilek is nice but they also tend to run a LOT less ramp meaning that our evasion + faster into play often made me feel that I could achieve kills faster than kozilek 1.0 but I never played him myself to confirm that. The flip side argument is that a single annihilate 4 trigger probably puts someone out of commission so it takes longer to swing twice to kill someone here but we also probably get into play faster.
Thanks for getting back to me so quick. Am I correct that you do not utilize Rings of Brighthearth + Basalt Monolith to generate infinite mana? I hope you are not as Judah's Kozilek deck utilizes this combo. This to me is by far the greatest flaw with Kozilek. I listed Judah's Kozilek but I checked several others and all had the combo.
I have two play groups. One does not utilize combo. The other plays the top tier cedh decks in the format. Teferi, Breakfast Hulk, Foodchain Tazri, Arcum, and Breya are some of the decks represented. Even a combo based Kozilek deck can not compete against these decks.
I have almost all the cards on your list including a Mishra's Worshop and a Bazzar of Bagdad. I do not have the Tabernacle. That is one of the factors that drew me to your list. The other is that I know from playing your Markov list that you can build high functioning decks.
What would you cut for Winter Orb? Are there any other changes to the decklist?
Thanks for getting back to me so quick. Am I correct that you do not utilize Rings of Brighthearth + Basalt Monolith to generate infinite mana? I hope you are not as Judah's Kozilek deck utilizes this combo. This to me is by far the greatest flaw with Kozilek. I listed Judah's Kozilek but I checked several others and all had the combo.
I have two play groups. One does not utilize combo. The other plays the top tier cedh decks in the format. Teferi, Breakfast Hulk, Foodchain Tazri, Arcum, and Breya are some of the decks represented. Even a combo based Kozilek deck can not compete against these decks.
I have almost all the cards on your list including a Mishra's Worshop and a Bazzar of Bagdad. I do not have the Tabernacle. That is one of the factors that drew me to your list. The other is that I know from playing your Markov list that you can build high functioning decks.
What would you cut for Winter Orb? Are there any other changes to the decklist?
I run essentially all of the mana stones that are halfway decent because I want more mana stones. Once Kozilek is in play they can be counterspells as well or ramp us towards our next cast of Kozilek. I happened to include rings because like.... all of my deck taps to do things. It is not in there for means of going infinite but it could do that. I myself don't play infinites so I have seen the setup where I could go infinite but I don't. Essentially everything I wrote and how I played this deck was not based around infinites.
Competing vs combo - I can't say one way or another on how it would play out. You would have to do some testing and adjustments for yourself but I will say you might be impressed vs Teferi as you will be the only one who can interact with counter magic while his commander is in play it might just throw him off (assuming you are talking 1.0 and not stasis walker version). Overall though, I did design my own list with the idea of playing in metas that don't combo / MLD though so I can't really do anything more than make uneducated guesses on that front. The best info I can give you is that you may need to make some adjustments to the list based upon that kind of playstyle assuming it is playable against it. If you regularly encounter things like T4 combo it might be a little harder but I think you will be pleasantly surprised at how strong the counter magic of Kozilek is once he is into play so its a question of if you can get in play before they can go off or not. I would say that turns 4/5 was a fairly regular expectation of mine on when I would be in play but this deck also often requires VERY aggressive mulligan strategies to achieve that. It is possible to be in play on turns 2/3 but they tend to be a lot less frequent and often require some god hand kind of setups.
Mishra's Worshop - I actually came close to getting a copy myself but then everything went into flux and suddenly all the prices jumbled everywhere. I was going to trade off my Nether Void + The Abyss and a few others to try to make the swap but its hard to find a place giving good prices as well as having availability on this front. Bazaar of Baghdad is totally sick though as one of the biggest frustrations for this deck can be to draw into land pockets where you cant purge it from hand fast enough. Its also really sick to check for counterspells in hand and have the ability to dig deeper and look for more options in a pinch as well as lowering hand size right before casting Kozilek to draw even more cards.
Offhand, Endbringer / Oblivion Sower / Burnished Hart / Solemn Simulacrum would be my suggestions on cuts for Winter Orb from the standpoint that Endbringer was kind of on my short list to begin with and the others are kind of slower land based ramp so cutting those would be useful in that the artifact ramp is much stronger if you are going to play the Orb. I think Storm Cauldron is also something I would totally take a look at as well if you are going to experiment some with land disruption. The land based ramp stuff is a little more stable for me as I don't encounter much for MLD and or stasis effects.
Thanks brother, I hope you continue to update this thread. You are one of the deck builders I follow.
I was not clear in my comments concerning this deck and combo. I would not build this deck if combo was one of the primary win-cons. I would not be able to play it in my primary group and I would have the worst deck at the cedh table. A strong, and combo absent win-con deck is perfect. I am ordering the cards I do not own today.
Thanks brother, I hope you continue to update this thread. You are one of the deck builders I follow.
I was not clear in my comments concerning this deck and combo. I would not build this deck if combo was one of the primary win-cons. I would not be able to play it in my primary group and I would have the worst deck at the cedh table. A strong, and combo absent win-con deck is perfect. I am ordering the cards I do not own today.
No problem, drop by sometime and let me know how its working for you. Being that they often don't print all that much powerful ramp anymore and artifacts as a whole probably have been down powered some in recent years it had been somewhat rare that this deck changed much which is a pro and a con. I love deckbuilding though so to some degree it was a downside to me because its less common that this deck is going to change due to how few artifacts / colorless effects get printed in regular sets.
I might be tempted to get my excess cards together and trade for a workshop at some point at which I would need to spin it back up
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
ISBPathfinder, has Swiftfoot Boots ever been considered for the deck?
You are playing 35 mana producing lands. How comfortable are you with this number? I am playing Mishra's Workshop in place of Tabernacle of Pendrell Vale. Would you be opposed to cutting a Wastes in order to open up a flex spot, maybe for Swiftfoot Boots? What would you add if a spot opened?
Would you be opposed to running Wasteland in the place of a Wastes?
I saw that the original version of the deck played Torpor Orb. I could be mistaken but I did not see a single creature you are playing that has an etb?
ISBPathfinder, has Swiftfoot Boots ever been considered for the deck?
You are playing 35 mana producing lands. How comfortable are you with this number? I am playing Mishra's Workshop in place of Tabernacle of Pendrell Vale. Would you be opposed to cutting a Wastes in order to open up a flex spot, maybe for Swiftfoot Boots? What would you add if a spot opened?
Would you be opposed to running Wasteland in the place of a Wastes?
I saw that the original version of the deck played Torpor Orb. I could be mistaken but I did not see a single creature you are playing that has an etb?
Swiftfoot Boots - my issue is the cost to equip. From the start you are probably going to cast Kozilek as soon as you can but delaying for the extra mana probably means waiting another turn (probably but maybe not). My issue with it is primarily that. Its possible that it would get more powerful as the game goes on depending on how much Kozilek dies split with how much you ramp. I always felt that Lightning Greaves was just better due to this. If you encounter a lot of mazes would probably be about the only reason I would maybe add it myself but I also generally don't think that haste boots are really that good to be honest.
Land Count - its something you can play with. We have a LOT of ramp and honestly an opening hand of a bunch of lands is actually fairly poor. The best hands tend to only have 2-3 lands with more focus on ramp. If you bolster your land count it can also be a problem if you find a land pocket as it takes longer to push them to play which can make repeat casts of Kozilek be less powerful not to mention the lessening of your counter magic options.
Wasteland - actually I ran it in my list so I guess I missed it in the OP. I am always a little lazy when it comes to the exacts of my landbases lol. I think I was only running 5 wastes last I recall. Overall I think only about 3-4 wastes would be what is needed to supplement the land tutors assuming you run the tutor for basic effects.
Torpor Orb - its fine to run. The downside is that its reactive and its kind of based on opponents playing into specific strategies. I started seeing less ETB based decks more recently but if its something you see regularly its totally a fine add. My issue was that this deck pushes to be really fast and this is something that in my mind is a little more designed for a drawn out game when trying to play against resource generation based tactics. I often found that I was trying to close out games faster than this really seemed to matter (or at least that's what I suspect just firing from the hip without looking back to see if I removed it and for what reasons).
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Blinkmoth Urn I stand behind as having been winmore. I dont miss the card at all.
Warping Wail I have seen a few times but I dont think I have used the counterspell option of it yet. Its kind of unproven but given that it can serve as a 2 mana one shot instant speed castable mana I am ok with its inclusion. It means that if drawn early I use it for mana to get to Kozilek and late I use it as an emergency block or sweeper protection. I dont think its "proven" itself to me yet but I have also not seen anything I feel I need more than this so I am ok with its inclusion still some time after making the change which is acceptable.
Pilgrim's Eye there are elements I miss about it I guess but its slow. Basic Wastes are boring and it fills up my hand rather than unloading it and it does so slowly so I think its for the best for me to just not have this anymore.
Mindless Automaton if I had actually been using the discard of this guy I think I would have been more ok with him. I found myself too often paying 4 mana to draw a card which the grave hate artifacts just do better with.
Trading Post I just didnt find myself using any of the modes really. It potentially could have been ok slow advantage for recovering artifacts but its just better to power forward with more ramp and draw. This card is too clunky and I dont need the emergency chump blocker enough to justify it.
Reliquary Tower I dont miss it. My hand really never overflows given that my commander just fills my hand to full. The lowered land count has not been an issue so far but I also have not been really wanting to lower it further as of right now.
Mirrorpool I never really used its utility so I dont miss it. The lowered land count has not been an issue so far but I also have not been really wanting to lower it further as of right now.
Lotus Petal I haven't had any super clutch games with it yet. I still think it has potential but I have not seen any super amazing starts off of it. The hard part of this one is that it is really heavily favored to the early game since its once time mana. I am not sold either way yet.
Hangarback Walker It has been so far ok. I cant think of anything game breaking in its favor but I also have not felt like it has been bad. I like that I can flexibly move it from hand if I am getting ready for Kozilek but I can also spend a turn on it if need be for something big. I really wish it had flying itself though to be honest because if there is a flying threat that is hitting me I could see myself not being able to pop it for the chump blockers.
Avarice Totem so far, its been a little winmore but I am waiting for more results. I like that its sort of a versatile answer / threat. I like it in that I can purge it from my hand in the early game and later on I could screw with defenses and or offense options. I think it still has potential I just havent seen it much.
Mox Diamond it has been good the little I have seen it. I saw it after someone wheeled once before my first cast of Kozilek and it was great there as it got played the turn Kozilek was coming down. Its a little bit similar to the Lotus Petal but it sticks around.
Chrome Mox it was cut as I read it wrong lol.
Conduit of Ruin I dont miss it at all. Its tutor was too awkward given it was a topdeck tutor and too selective. The ramp was just ok considering it costed too much.
Chrome Mox I read it wrong in the first place so it never actually made it into the deck. Its too bad as I could use another mox in here.
Chromatic Lantern it was kind of always underwhelming until I had 1+ lands that didnt tap for mana so I am fine without it.
Staff of Domination I just have too much to do on average for the amount of mana it sort of requires to be good. I enjoyed the card but it required me to sort of do nothing in order to have options with it.
Walking Ballista it has been good a few times already for me. I like it as an optional mana sink and its helped some combat tricks as well as anti token effects.
Universal Solvent I have enjoyed its ability to just be put in play. It has been fine while still filling its role.
Planar Bridge I have only seen it one time and that one time it was bonkers but its not been a very good average display of the card since it was a situation of Unwinding Clock plus tons of mana stones. I still have high hopes for it but that was not really a normal situation.
Inspiring Statuary I have yet to see it. I am still optimistic though.
More importantly, I realized that I somehow forgot to update my list to include Inventors' Fair lol. It has been in since day one I just forgot to update my list. I also realized I forgot to update my list when I purged Myriad Landscape so I guess I will now just make assumptions and swap the two of them. I will have to check my list and see what is actually in and what is not some other time but for the time being they can just hi five each other and call it good.
DECK CHANGE:
Myriad Landscape -> Inventors' Fair this was just an oversight on my digital list but I cut Myriad Landscape a good while back since it cannot actually fetch wasts. Inventors' Fair has been in my actual list since it came out as well but I apparently forgot to update my digital list of its inclusion.
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I played a game last night after getting annoyed at some masterbatory green blue draw ramp value deck was making me mad. I ended up with an opening hand of 3 land, Thran Dynamo, Ur-Golem's Eye, Lion's Eye Diamond.
First two turns were just land + pass turns. On turn 3 I drew into Worn Powerstone so I played that. Turn 4 I played Thran Dynamo + Hedron Archive (missed my land drop). Turn 5 I drew a land so I played that, Lion's Eye Diamond, Tangle Wire + Kozilek.
Turn 6 I attacked the blue green deck. The red token deck tried to shoot off some tokens which got countered. Turn 7 I then played a Sculpting Steel of Tangle Wire and hit the red player who kept up a Spinerock Knoll and my opponents scooped to me.
Anyways, got primer status which is cool. Feel free to ask any questions if you have any.
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On building a Celestial Kirin Stax EDH:
It is true that if you can assemble them it would be great here. I just dont really foresee myself getting full urzatron set up in a colorless EDH deck. I run like one tutor for lands and so it seems incredibly unlikely that I can find all three in this format. Due to that I tend to prefer lands that on their own are good. I could probably lower my waste count for them but I still dont feel like there is a very big chance of assembling it in a game.
I am glad to hear of another Great Distortion player. Let me know how it works for you.
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Just as kind of a quality of life update, I think I might be cutting Endbringer in the near future. I keep hoping that I can drop it into play and use it for a few turns but it seems that every time I have the kind of resources to toy with it I am too busy pushing around Kozilek and when I do cast Endbringer it often just gets removed. I dont have that change figured out right now but its been sort of something that has been a bit present as I push the card around in here.
Kozilek Hour of Destruction Set Review:
Crook of Comdemnation - So I like that its a stronger graveyard hate effect but in a lot of cases I run the grave hate that I do as somewhat of cheap cycling cards that can function as grave hate if I need them. Taking away the cycling portion of the grave hate this obviously is stronger grave hate but its more dedicated. I generally speaking move fast enough that I dont have a lot of fears when it comes to opposing grave hate. Somewhat of a random side note but its inclusion would make Oblivion Sower a little stronger but that seems rare that that would come up.
God-Pharaoh's Gift - the effect isn't half bad. If we had more ETB artifact creatures that didnt suck I could see it being alright. Ultimately I dont really see this card as something I am really going to consider.
Mirage Mirror - I like the effect but I dont think I really like the cost to activate every turn. It cant really turn into a mana stone very well considering on the high end my stones tap for 3 mana its just ok then. You could I guess clone Kozilek in response to theft... I just dont really see what I would do with this to be honest. I generally try to weigh cards based on what they do in relation to the deck itself and with all of the mana stones I just dont see the need for this.
Sunset Pyramid - its not a bad card but my issue is that generally speaking I am using my mana very quickly and its not that strong of a draw nor is it that repeatable. The amount of mana to turn over the first card being 4 mana is.... just ok but its slow and the investment per card drawn isnt that great. With something like Mind's Eye the first card is drawn at 6 mana but then it churns out cards kind of quickly. Its not that fast in how many cards it can draw and its not that efficient.
Endless Sands - ultimately I need to cycle Kozilek every now and then so protecting him by keeping up mana and then sacrificing a land does not sound appealing to me. Its better to keep land counts and recast him generally.
Scavenger Grounds - This looks like some really nice grave hate. I suspect I will try to make its way into the deck. I dont know how much I need it but I like its utility. I would never bring it in to replace any of the ramp based lands but possibly I would consider it in place of another utility land.
Ultimately, Scavenger Grounds is probably fairly good. Crook of Comdemnation is something to consider if you are having issues with graveyards but its a little more dedicated hate than the cyclers I run now. Mirage Mirror is an interesting card but I just cant figure out what its normal use would be that I could justify it. I will probably toy with the landbase and see if I cant make room for Scavenger Grounds.
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On building a Celestial Kirin Stax EDH:
Thats great to hear. As you get more familiar with the deck I encourage more aggressive mulligans with this deck because Kozilek can recover from being down a few cards its far more important to have a hand of land and ramp than anything else. Let me know if anything stands out as being clunky as you play it.
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On building a Celestial Kirin Stax EDH:
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Good catch, I will fix that. Let me know if you have any questions or anything I can help with.
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You can think of Endless Sands as another sac outlet for Kozilek, since the first ability should send him to the command zone anyway. It can also be sacced to Scavenger Grounds when you need it.
Do you think Lotus Bloom is playable as the next best thing in place of the $$$ ramp?
You probably could play it as another sac outlet but I can only think of a few times I have ever wanted to sacrifice him and those times tend to be when my hand goes dead but I am flooded on mana or possibly to Miren if my life total gets low. I can only think of a few times that I have needed to sacrifice him for either reason. Most of the time if he is still in play he is getting work done and your opponents are dying. If you experience a higher consistency of theft is probably one of the few reasons to consider pushing up your sac options but even then there is still the issue that most of the lands require mana to activate them so the cost to cast him and keep a sac up is kind of heavy.
Lotus Bloom - its ok and if you already own one I think its probably fine to try it out. Being that its $10 I probably wouldn't buy a copy unless you get close to what you feel is an optimal build and run out of ideas. It definitely has a big issue that its really bad beyond the first turn or two but the upside is it jumps out of your hand when you suspend it so at least it gets out of the way for Kozilek to draw more cards. Really almost any ramp you can get your hands on is useful here so I wouldn't count it out but I also don't know that I would call it ideal since it really gets worse the later you draw it.
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Given that this deck has a high density of mana stones and their current printing policies has taken a down powering to mana stones it makes it challanging from set to set for colorless to be all that interesting on an every set basis. Vehicles have been new and popular among some of their new sets as well which unfortunately is a mechanic that plays very poorly for Kozilek given there is no way I am tapping him to crew anything. Overall I would say the average set does not have that much to offer. There isnt a ton standing out for me right now with the upcoming set but I guess if I were to highlight a few things it would be:
It has been somewhat rare for me to really see any pickup inclusions that have been all that good of late in recent sets. Most sets don't have that much emphasis on artifacts and mana stones have been getting weaker, vehicles are bad for kozilek, and equipment are extremely situational. Overall this leads to somewhat low turnover for this deck which is kind of unfortunate as I do like to play with new toys but even then this is one of the faster more ridiculous decks I own so its not like I really need it to power up and get stronger.
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On building a Celestial Kirin Stax EDH:
Yea, I might need to play with my wastes count myself. On the upside.... I am working on a trade in where I might offload my The Abyss + Nether Void and pick up a Mishra's Workshop. I am still playing with the numbers and figuring out what exactly I am going to move but a workstation seems like a likely option of where I go with it. I picked up the two black enchantments over two years ago now before they jumped and I have yet to use the cards in the time I have been sitting on them.
I need to circle back and look at my lands at some point. It just has not been a big focus for me of late with my LGS having closed down back at Christmas time.
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On building a Celestial Kirin Stax EDH:
To put it into perspective, I stopped playing this deck because I felt too bad every time I played it. I very regularly with this list had a turn 4/5 commander and I think the fastest I recorded was either on turn 2 or 3. This deck is incredibly resiliant and hard to play against to the point that I would say while its not CEDH (in that vs fast combo it probably would still lose), I would put it close to but probably still just a little lower powered than a tuned Edric, Spymaster of Trest deck (in that I have built and played a tuned Edric in the past).
This deck was incredibly strong and in the time that I played this deck I probably did rack up some 30 or so games with probably an 80-90% win rate with this deck. I moved to a new location where a lot of their decks were not as tuned and so I felt even worse pulling this deck out against them. The end result was that I played this deck like.... once in the last year and eventually decommissioned this list but it is INCREDIBLY fun to play.... the problem is that for the most part it was above and beyond what people were ready to play against and so I did remove it eventually due to that.
The only other colorless commander I would even say might be similar in my mind is the other version of Kozilek. The reasons I really prefer this version though is that you have a much heavier ramp game which results in a faster commander play as well as potential for some control elements rather than attempting to just goldfish. The draw is variable on this one instead of always being 4 cards so its hard to say what the average draw but I would say I generally draw at least 4 cards and the only real issue I had is if I would land flood (in that I could not dump them fast enough). The annihilate 4 of the other kozilek is nice but they also tend to run a LOT less ramp meaning that our evasion + faster into play often made me feel that I could achieve kills faster than kozilek 1.0 but I never played him myself to confirm that. The flip side argument is that a single annihilate 4 trigger probably puts someone out of commission so it takes longer to swing twice to kill someone here but we also probably get into play faster.
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I have two play groups. One does not utilize combo. The other plays the top tier cedh decks in the format. Teferi, Breakfast Hulk, Foodchain Tazri, Arcum, and Breya are some of the decks represented. Even a combo based Kozilek deck can not compete against these decks.
I have almost all the cards on your list including a Mishra's Worshop and a Bazzar of Bagdad. I do not have the Tabernacle. That is one of the factors that drew me to your list. The other is that I know from playing your Markov list that you can build high functioning decks.
What would you cut for Winter Orb? Are there any other changes to the decklist?
I run essentially all of the mana stones that are halfway decent because I want more mana stones. Once Kozilek is in play they can be counterspells as well or ramp us towards our next cast of Kozilek. I happened to include rings because like.... all of my deck taps to do things. It is not in there for means of going infinite but it could do that. I myself don't play infinites so I have seen the setup where I could go infinite but I don't. Essentially everything I wrote and how I played this deck was not based around infinites.
Competing vs combo - I can't say one way or another on how it would play out. You would have to do some testing and adjustments for yourself but I will say you might be impressed vs Teferi as you will be the only one who can interact with counter magic while his commander is in play it might just throw him off (assuming you are talking 1.0 and not stasis walker version). Overall though, I did design my own list with the idea of playing in metas that don't combo / MLD though so I can't really do anything more than make uneducated guesses on that front. The best info I can give you is that you may need to make some adjustments to the list based upon that kind of playstyle assuming it is playable against it. If you regularly encounter things like T4 combo it might be a little harder but I think you will be pleasantly surprised at how strong the counter magic of Kozilek is once he is into play so its a question of if you can get in play before they can go off or not. I would say that turns 4/5 was a fairly regular expectation of mine on when I would be in play but this deck also often requires VERY aggressive mulligan strategies to achieve that. It is possible to be in play on turns 2/3 but they tend to be a lot less frequent and often require some god hand kind of setups.
Mishra's Worshop - I actually came close to getting a copy myself but then everything went into flux and suddenly all the prices jumbled everywhere. I was going to trade off my Nether Void + The Abyss and a few others to try to make the swap but its hard to find a place giving good prices as well as having availability on this front. Bazaar of Baghdad is totally sick though as one of the biggest frustrations for this deck can be to draw into land pockets where you cant purge it from hand fast enough. Its also really sick to check for counterspells in hand and have the ability to dig deeper and look for more options in a pinch as well as lowering hand size right before casting Kozilek to draw even more cards.
Offhand, Endbringer / Oblivion Sower / Burnished Hart / Solemn Simulacrum would be my suggestions on cuts for Winter Orb from the standpoint that Endbringer was kind of on my short list to begin with and the others are kind of slower land based ramp so cutting those would be useful in that the artifact ramp is much stronger if you are going to play the Orb. I think Storm Cauldron is also something I would totally take a look at as well if you are going to experiment some with land disruption. The land based ramp stuff is a little more stable for me as I don't encounter much for MLD and or stasis effects.
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I was not clear in my comments concerning this deck and combo. I would not build this deck if combo was one of the primary win-cons. I would not be able to play it in my primary group and I would have the worst deck at the cedh table. A strong, and combo absent win-con deck is perfect. I am ordering the cards I do not own today.
No problem, drop by sometime and let me know how its working for you. Being that they often don't print all that much powerful ramp anymore and artifacts as a whole probably have been down powered some in recent years it had been somewhat rare that this deck changed much which is a pro and a con. I love deckbuilding though so to some degree it was a downside to me because its less common that this deck is going to change due to how few artifacts / colorless effects get printed in regular sets.
I might be tempted to get my excess cards together and trade for a workshop at some point at which I would need to spin it back up
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You are playing 35 mana producing lands. How comfortable are you with this number? I am playing Mishra's Workshop in place of Tabernacle of Pendrell Vale. Would you be opposed to cutting a Wastes in order to open up a flex spot, maybe for Swiftfoot Boots? What would you add if a spot opened?
Would you be opposed to running Wasteland in the place of a Wastes?
I saw that the original version of the deck played Torpor Orb. I could be mistaken but I did not see a single creature you are playing that has an etb?
Swiftfoot Boots - my issue is the cost to equip. From the start you are probably going to cast Kozilek as soon as you can but delaying for the extra mana probably means waiting another turn (probably but maybe not). My issue with it is primarily that. Its possible that it would get more powerful as the game goes on depending on how much Kozilek dies split with how much you ramp. I always felt that Lightning Greaves was just better due to this. If you encounter a lot of mazes would probably be about the only reason I would maybe add it myself but I also generally don't think that haste boots are really that good to be honest.
Land Count - its something you can play with. We have a LOT of ramp and honestly an opening hand of a bunch of lands is actually fairly poor. The best hands tend to only have 2-3 lands with more focus on ramp. If you bolster your land count it can also be a problem if you find a land pocket as it takes longer to push them to play which can make repeat casts of Kozilek be less powerful not to mention the lessening of your counter magic options.
Wasteland - actually I ran it in my list so I guess I missed it in the OP. I am always a little lazy when it comes to the exacts of my landbases lol. I think I was only running 5 wastes last I recall. Overall I think only about 3-4 wastes would be what is needed to supplement the land tutors assuming you run the tutor for basic effects.
Torpor Orb - its fine to run. The downside is that its reactive and its kind of based on opponents playing into specific strategies. I started seeing less ETB based decks more recently but if its something you see regularly its totally a fine add. My issue was that this deck pushes to be really fast and this is something that in my mind is a little more designed for a drawn out game when trying to play against resource generation based tactics. I often found that I was trying to close out games faster than this really seemed to matter (or at least that's what I suspect just firing from the hip without looking back to see if I removed it and for what reasons).
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