I was a big fan of Ophiomancer and Liliana, but agree with the additions. I may playtest Catacomb Shifter but it hasnt dobe well for me in the past. I may try something to add thoae 2 cards back in.
I wanna give him a fair shot like I did the other two. Ophiomancer mostly just made dudes to block with or help me ramp up experience counters back when I ran more of a midrangey shell. Liliana will probably come back in, but with a few less than impressive games with her, I think I'd rather run Victimize in her slot.
Gromgrom which do you think works better in your list flip Liliana or Veil?
I've not gotten to try Veil yet due to her stupid pricetag. I think both are okay from what I've tested and what their cards do, but not necessary. Veil may be stronger due to her ability to help control the board. Flip needs too much assistance.
So i am in the middle of making cuts for my own Meren deck
how many mana dorks would u consider the right amount?
I noticed that you run very little in terms of board wipes. Any reason for that?
Have you considered Stronghold Assassin
So i am in the middle of making cuts for my own Meren deck
how many mana dorks would u consider the right amount?
I noticed that you run very little in terms of board wipes. Any reason for that?
Have you considered Stronghold Assassin
Assassin is too slow, if we need to kill specific creatures, we use Attrition since it dodges removal and can be used more than once a turn
The amount I think is 10-15 being ideal.
I tend to not need board wipes too often, as we either win early or play conservatively until we can combo off. I usually allow the other players to clear the board. Our edict effects tend to do well enough. If I ever need one, it'd be Toxic Deluge or Damnation.
Deluge is the stuff. I've yet to add to my paper deck. I run Living Death, which can lead to an explosive swing (sac your board including Meren, hopefully fill yon yard with Gary, Kokusho and the like)
Deluge is the stuff. I've yet to add to my paper deck. I run Living Death, which can lead to an explosive swing (sac your board including Meren, hopefully fill yon yard with Gary, Kokusho and the like)
Given the huuuuuge amount of grave hate in my meta, even at instant speed, I've neglected to even try it I wish I could! It would be so much fun! (No more fun allowed in EDH I guess!)
It finally came in the mail. It should help with some of the more restrictive casting costs of our spells, as well as comboing with Cabal Coffers (Once that comes in the mail) to allow us to recast Meren repeatedly, and finally drop Ashnod's Altar for something better.
While looking at non-basics, what about Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx? It is great in a two color deck, and you already are playing Gary who cares about devotion to black. At worst, it taps for colorless.
While looking at non-basics, what about Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx? It is great in a two color deck, and you already are playing Gary who cares about devotion to black. At worst, it taps for colorless.
I know! I sent it off on a pucatrade like a month ago and now I regret it... I mostly didnt include it due to fears I wouldnt have the devotion around due to how wipe heavy my meta is, and now I regret it. One game I had 12 devotion just a few weeks ago... it would have helped!
Deciding to test this guy in the 1CMC mana dork slot. Basically, his only downside is his mana investment, but he will provide us much more mana over the course of his time on the board than Llanowar will, while also providing us a valuable mana dump. Ideally, we drop him turn 1, and turn 2, we level him up and aren't down any mana, except if we filtered out black mana and for whatever reason NEED it, which I doubt.
Another city of brass for a basic, and Nykthos per a suggestion for a forest. This allows me to replace Ashnod's Altar. I dont need to recast Meren as much now that we're more Stax/Combo than midrange goodstuff.dec. As such, we dont need the Altar. So Fauna Shaman comes in to add variety to our 2 drop slot, as well as another tutor for our combo pieces/Mindslicer/Gary
I think I should actually post some results here, and thoughts, rather than just changes. I'll also update the OP with these eventually (I'd like to get Primer status someday!)
So I got to play a game last night where Meren got me the win! So it turns out Grim Harsupex is incredibly solid with all of the mana dorks we run, particualrly ones that sacrifice themselves like Devoted Druid (MVP) and Diligent Farmhand. I was drawing cards out the wazoo all while returning them to play with Meren. I'm glad to finally be able to test Devoted Druid and Grim Haruspex, and extra happy that they performed exceptionally.
I was able to win off comboing with Ooze/Trike/Devourer soon after I wiped the board. Attrition and Fleshbag Maurader tend to tear apart the board if no one is playing tokens.
My current maybeboard of things I really want to get in here: Void Winnower - While expensive, it can really shut down combo and Cyclonic Rift, as well as many other strategies. Smokestacks - I want to remove Bitterblossom, but yet it works so well with this card. Perhaps something like Dictate of Erebos?
More mana dorks - Still testing out things like Catacomb Sifter, so more 1cmc, tap for G creatures have chances for inclusion. Tainted Aether - I really would like to try this, however, I think it's aimed at more creature-based decks, and with how many creatures I play, could be more of a detriment than a boon. Boons it does have are completely hosing token decks, as well as being a free sacrifice outlet in a pinch. I'll keep it in a binder somewhere, but it is very low on my inclusion list. Necroplasm - This guy is my #1 want, and I cant seem to get anyone to send me it on Pucatrade. It will easily replace Massacre Wurm, as Wurm is too top heavy and his juicy abilities dont hit tokens that are being buffed heavily (What token decks dont run Coat of Arms?!). In any case, even when I've had him open to do damage to those decks, there was always a way to buff the tokens to some degree or he wouldnt stabilize me. Plasm hits all tokens, even our own, and will eventually eat our dorks, which can be bad, but just sacrifice him before that happens. He also can be dredged cheaply, which is never a bad thing!
There's some cards I want to add now cause of this list, thank you.
A suggestion that I haven't done myself but seen a lot...
Nim death mantle + su-chi/grave Titan/avenger of zen = a nightmare for anyone. Unlimited things for sacing just wins.
Something I haven't added yet but want to is that sobald guy that's expensive mana wise but watched it rape at a tournament. The biggest issue I find with meren is after a point it's the only experience counter commander that counters quickly become useless in terms of continuing to get after say 7.
Also mercelious executioner is another fleshbag to add that board locks everyone. Hope it helps
- It's hard to get 20 creature cards in your graveyard. We don't play a lot of self-mill, and even when you have a high creature count (~40), you have to mill around 50 cards in order to get enough creatures in the graveyard. I don't think that a 20-creature graveyard is something that can happen naturally, and I'm not sure it's worth adding cards to help us get there.
- Graveyard hate ruins this strategy, and from my experience, it's nearly always aimed at us anyway. If our graveyard is exiled even one time, then Mortal Combat becomes a do-nothing card. I'm not sure it's worth the inclusion.
- Finally, Mortal Combat does nothing by itself, which makes it a tough inclusion to begin with. Unless you are trying very hard to make the combo work, Mortal Combat does nothing except sit around waiting. If I'm going to cast a 4-mana sorcery-speed spell, then I want it to do something.
Just my 2 cents. Maybe others see it differently.
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Playing with proxied cards at sanctioned events is good, actually.
- It's hard to get 20 creature cards in your graveyard. We don't play a lot of self-mill, and even when you have a high creature count (~40), you have to mill around 50 cards in order to get enough creatures in the graveyard. I don't think that a 20-creature graveyard is something that can happen naturally, and I'm not sure it's worth adding cards to help us get there.
- Graveyard hate ruins this strategy, and from my experience, it's nearly always aimed at us anyway. If our graveyard is exiled even one time, then Mortal Combat becomes a do-nothing card. I'm not sure it's worth the inclusion.
- Finally, Mortal Combat does nothing by itself, which makes it a tough inclusion to begin with. Unless you are trying very hard to make the combo work, Mortal Combat does nothing except sit around waiting. If I'm going to cast a 4-mana sorcery-speed spell, then I want it to do something.
Just my 2 cents. Maybe others see it differently.
You're absolutely correct. It's best played in an extremely casual meta where you can not only build for it, but never expect any graveyard hate. It's such a narrow and hard to pull off win condition. I also really dislike random suggestions "HAVE YOU EVER TRIED X", when X doesnt work at all with the list as is. I just think people dont read the OP and expect some face value generic general build where it may work.
@gromgrom I can appreciate your frustration. At the same time, these kinds of suggestions are great opportunities to provide some clarity about MtG heuristics and best practices that newer players might not intuitively grasp.
Looking at Mortal Combat, for example: like all "achieve X condition, win the game" spells, Mortal Combat is a powerful effect. If you play in a very casual environment or are new to EDH/MtG, it might seem curious that no one runs it (since we run so many creatures and want cards in our graveyard). To be fair, Coalition Victory is a similar card (though the conditions you have to meet are much easier than Mortal Combat), and yet it is actually banned in the format because the condition is so easy to achieve.
Anyway, I don't want to veer too off topic. Obviously it's better when people read the OP, but I still think there is value in discussions around cards that don't fit.
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Playing with proxied cards at sanctioned events is good, actually.
@gromgrom I can appreciate your frustration. At the same time, these kinds of suggestions are great opportunities to provide some clarity about MtG heuristics and best practices that newer players might not intuitively grasp.
Looking at Mortal Combat, for example: like all "achieve X condition, win the game" spells, Mortal Combat is a powerful effect. If you play in a very casual environment or are new to EDH/MtG, it might seem curious that no one runs it (since we run so many creatures and want cards in our graveyard). To be fair, Coalition Victory is a similar card (though the conditions you have to meet are much easier than Mortal Combat), and yet it is actually banned in the format because the condition is so easy to achieve.
Anyway, I don't want to veer too off topic. Obviously it's better when people read the OP, but I still think there is value in discussions around cards that don't fit.
I agree, but also have this to say,
There is value in the discussion, but many users wont read through each post to see the discussion, just merely glance, post about a card related to the commander, then leave. I guess I've just been on CCG forums too long to where I see the cycle repeated. I dont mean to fault these users; they're just trying to be helpful. And hey, sometimes there IS a suggestion which just kind of hits you, like "Why AM I not running that?!".
Ie, I appreciate "Have you tried X card? I've seen it in other lists, you dont mention it anywhere, and it seems to synergize with A, B, and C in your list. Why the exclusion?", because it shows they put forth effort into their post. They thought about it's potential, saw I ran cards that work with it, and noticed I havent considered it. Mortal Combat merely fits "I see you haven't mentioned it".
Anyways. Sorry to veer off topic. No, for reasons you stated, Mortal Combat is far from ideal here. I'd rather run the new Emrakul, while it doesnt win the game on the spot, it is easier to pull off, synergizes with the deck and can stop the control/combo players from winning, and does tend to lead the game into a win or lose situation.
I did play some games with this list but made the change of sifter to veil and this list is very strong. I haven't hit Veil yet because usually I have already won or very close to it. I almost wonder if Veil or flip lilly in your list shouldn't be another mana dork or a removal creature of some sort.
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Probably not, but I can see trying it out!
I wanna give him a fair shot like I did the other two. Ophiomancer mostly just made dudes to block with or help me ramp up experience counters back when I ran more of a midrangey shell. Liliana will probably come back in, but with a few less than impressive games with her, I think I'd rather run Victimize in her slot.
GB [Primer][Competitive][Stax][Combo] Meren of Clan Nel Toth 95% RETIRED
UW [Primer][Competitive][Combo][Stax] Brago, King Eternal RETIRED
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots (75%)
G Titania - 75%
W SRAM - Welcome to the cheeri0s jam 95%
U Teferi - stax 100%
R Neheb - janky mono red eggs combo 90%
B Gonti - 50% valuetown
I've not gotten to try Veil yet due to her stupid pricetag. I think both are okay from what I've tested and what their cards do, but not necessary. Veil may be stronger due to her ability to help control the board. Flip needs too much assistance.
GB [Primer][Competitive][Stax][Combo] Meren of Clan Nel Toth 95% RETIRED
UW [Primer][Competitive][Combo][Stax] Brago, King Eternal RETIRED
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots (75%)
G Titania - 75%
W SRAM - Welcome to the cheeri0s jam 95%
U Teferi - stax 100%
R Neheb - janky mono red eggs combo 90%
B Gonti - 50% valuetown
Let me know! I hope she's reprinted soon, I'd really like to run her for her minus ability alone.
GB [Primer][Competitive][Stax][Combo] Meren of Clan Nel Toth 95% RETIRED
UW [Primer][Competitive][Combo][Stax] Brago, King Eternal RETIRED
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots (75%)
G Titania - 75%
W SRAM - Welcome to the cheeri0s jam 95%
U Teferi - stax 100%
R Neheb - janky mono red eggs combo 90%
B Gonti - 50% valuetown
how many mana dorks would u consider the right amount?
I noticed that you run very little in terms of board wipes. Any reason for that?
Have you considered Stronghold Assassin
Assassin is too slow, if we need to kill specific creatures, we use Attrition since it dodges removal and can be used more than once a turn
The amount I think is 10-15 being ideal.
I tend to not need board wipes too often, as we either win early or play conservatively until we can combo off. I usually allow the other players to clear the board. Our edict effects tend to do well enough. If I ever need one, it'd be Toxic Deluge or Damnation.
GB [Primer][Competitive][Stax][Combo] Meren of Clan Nel Toth 95% RETIRED
UW [Primer][Competitive][Combo][Stax] Brago, King Eternal RETIRED
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots (75%)
G Titania - 75%
W SRAM - Welcome to the cheeri0s jam 95%
U Teferi - stax 100%
R Neheb - janky mono red eggs combo 90%
B Gonti - 50% valuetown
G Azusa, Wherever I May Roam
UG Rashmi Simic Power
WB Kambal Life Gain Kills
URG Maelstrom Wanderer Howdy
Given the huuuuuge amount of grave hate in my meta, even at instant speed, I've neglected to even try it I wish I could! It would be so much fun! (No more fun allowed in EDH I guess!)
Removed:
Swamp
Added:
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
It finally came in the mail. It should help with some of the more restrictive casting costs of our spells, as well as comboing with Cabal Coffers (Once that comes in the mail) to allow us to recast Meren repeatedly, and finally drop Ashnod's Altar for something better.
GB [Primer][Competitive][Stax][Combo] Meren of Clan Nel Toth 95% RETIRED
UW [Primer][Competitive][Combo][Stax] Brago, King Eternal RETIRED
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots (75%)
G Titania - 75%
W SRAM - Welcome to the cheeri0s jam 95%
U Teferi - stax 100%
R Neheb - janky mono red eggs combo 90%
B Gonti - 50% valuetown
Forest
Added:
City of Brass
More dual lands I forgot I had
GB [Primer][Competitive][Stax][Combo] Meren of Clan Nel Toth 95% RETIRED
UW [Primer][Competitive][Combo][Stax] Brago, King Eternal RETIRED
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots (75%)
G Titania - 75%
W SRAM - Welcome to the cheeri0s jam 95%
U Teferi - stax 100%
R Neheb - janky mono red eggs combo 90%
B Gonti - 50% valuetown
Very possibly, I do want to watch my non-basic count (I just had my City laying around so it was an easy inclusion).
GB [Primer][Competitive][Stax][Combo] Meren of Clan Nel Toth 95% RETIRED
UW [Primer][Competitive][Combo][Stax] Brago, King Eternal RETIRED
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots (75%)
G Titania - 75%
W SRAM - Welcome to the cheeri0s jam 95%
U Teferi - stax 100%
R Neheb - janky mono red eggs combo 90%
B Gonti - 50% valuetown
G Azusa, Wherever I May Roam
UG Rashmi Simic Power
WB Kambal Life Gain Kills
URG Maelstrom Wanderer Howdy
I know! I sent it off on a pucatrade like a month ago and now I regret it... I mostly didnt include it due to fears I wouldnt have the devotion around due to how wipe heavy my meta is, and now I regret it. One game I had 12 devotion just a few weeks ago... it would have helped!
GB [Primer][Competitive][Stax][Combo] Meren of Clan Nel Toth 95% RETIRED
UW [Primer][Competitive][Combo][Stax] Brago, King Eternal RETIRED
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots (75%)
G Titania - 75%
W SRAM - Welcome to the cheeri0s jam 95%
U Teferi - stax 100%
R Neheb - janky mono red eggs combo 90%
B Gonti - 50% valuetown
Llanowar Elves
Added:
Joraga Treespeaker
Deciding to test this guy in the 1CMC mana dork slot. Basically, his only downside is his mana investment, but he will provide us much more mana over the course of his time on the board than Llanowar will, while also providing us a valuable mana dump. Ideally, we drop him turn 1, and turn 2, we level him up and aren't down any mana, except if we filtered out black mana and for whatever reason NEED it, which I doubt.
GB [Primer][Competitive][Stax][Combo] Meren of Clan Nel Toth 95% RETIRED
UW [Primer][Competitive][Combo][Stax] Brago, King Eternal RETIRED
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots (75%)
G Titania - 75%
W SRAM - Welcome to the cheeri0s jam 95%
U Teferi - stax 100%
R Neheb - janky mono red eggs combo 90%
B Gonti - 50% valuetown
Added:
Another city of brass for a basic, and Nykthos per a suggestion for a forest. This allows me to replace Ashnod's Altar. I dont need to recast Meren as much now that we're more Stax/Combo than midrange goodstuff.dec. As such, we dont need the Altar. So Fauna Shaman comes in to add variety to our 2 drop slot, as well as another tutor for our combo pieces/Mindslicer/Gary
GB [Primer][Competitive][Stax][Combo] Meren of Clan Nel Toth 95% RETIRED
UW [Primer][Competitive][Combo][Stax] Brago, King Eternal RETIRED
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots (75%)
G Titania - 75%
W SRAM - Welcome to the cheeri0s jam 95%
U Teferi - stax 100%
R Neheb - janky mono red eggs combo 90%
B Gonti - 50% valuetown
So I got to play a game last night where Meren got me the win! So it turns out Grim Harsupex is incredibly solid with all of the mana dorks we run, particualrly ones that sacrifice themselves like Devoted Druid (MVP) and Diligent Farmhand. I was drawing cards out the wazoo all while returning them to play with Meren. I'm glad to finally be able to test Devoted Druid and Grim Haruspex, and extra happy that they performed exceptionally.
I was able to win off comboing with Ooze/Trike/Devourer soon after I wiped the board. Attrition and Fleshbag Maurader tend to tear apart the board if no one is playing tokens.
My current maybeboard of things I really want to get in here:
Void Winnower - While expensive, it can really shut down combo and Cyclonic Rift, as well as many other strategies.
Smokestacks - I want to remove Bitterblossom, but yet it works so well with this card. Perhaps something like Dictate of Erebos?
More mana dorks - Still testing out things like Catacomb Sifter, so more 1cmc, tap for G creatures have chances for inclusion.
Tainted Aether - I really would like to try this, however, I think it's aimed at more creature-based decks, and with how many creatures I play, could be more of a detriment than a boon. Boons it does have are completely hosing token decks, as well as being a free sacrifice outlet in a pinch. I'll keep it in a binder somewhere, but it is very low on my inclusion list.
Necroplasm - This guy is my #1 want, and I cant seem to get anyone to send me it on Pucatrade. It will easily replace Massacre Wurm, as Wurm is too top heavy and his juicy abilities dont hit tokens that are being buffed heavily (What token decks dont run Coat of Arms?!). In any case, even when I've had him open to do damage to those decks, there was always a way to buff the tokens to some degree or he wouldnt stabilize me. Plasm hits all tokens, even our own, and will eventually eat our dorks, which can be bad, but just sacrifice him before that happens. He also can be dredged cheaply, which is never a bad thing!
GB [Primer][Competitive][Stax][Combo] Meren of Clan Nel Toth 95% RETIRED
UW [Primer][Competitive][Combo][Stax] Brago, King Eternal RETIRED
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots (75%)
G Titania - 75%
W SRAM - Welcome to the cheeri0s jam 95%
U Teferi - stax 100%
R Neheb - janky mono red eggs combo 90%
B Gonti - 50% valuetown
A suggestion that I haven't done myself but seen a lot...
Nim death mantle + su-chi/grave Titan/avenger of zen = a nightmare for anyone. Unlimited things for sacing just wins.
Something I haven't added yet but want to is that sobald guy that's expensive mana wise but watched it rape at a tournament. The biggest issue I find with meren is after a point it's the only experience counter commander that counters quickly become useless in terms of continuing to get after say 7.
Also mercelious executioner is another fleshbag to add that board locks everyone. Hope it helps
- It's hard to get 20 creature cards in your graveyard. We don't play a lot of self-mill, and even when you have a high creature count (~40), you have to mill around 50 cards in order to get enough creatures in the graveyard. I don't think that a 20-creature graveyard is something that can happen naturally, and I'm not sure it's worth adding cards to help us get there.
- Graveyard hate ruins this strategy, and from my experience, it's nearly always aimed at us anyway. If our graveyard is exiled even one time, then Mortal Combat becomes a do-nothing card. I'm not sure it's worth the inclusion.
- Finally, Mortal Combat does nothing by itself, which makes it a tough inclusion to begin with. Unless you are trying very hard to make the combo work, Mortal Combat does nothing except sit around waiting. If I'm going to cast a 4-mana sorcery-speed spell, then I want it to do something.
Just my 2 cents. Maybe others see it differently.
Blue lives don't matter in the slightest.
You're absolutely correct. It's best played in an extremely casual meta where you can not only build for it, but never expect any graveyard hate. It's such a narrow and hard to pull off win condition. I also really dislike random suggestions "HAVE YOU EVER TRIED X", when X doesnt work at all with the list as is. I just think people dont read the OP and expect some face value generic general build where it may work.
GB [Primer][Competitive][Stax][Combo] Meren of Clan Nel Toth 95% RETIRED
UW [Primer][Competitive][Combo][Stax] Brago, King Eternal RETIRED
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots (75%)
G Titania - 75%
W SRAM - Welcome to the cheeri0s jam 95%
U Teferi - stax 100%
R Neheb - janky mono red eggs combo 90%
B Gonti - 50% valuetown
Looking at Mortal Combat, for example: like all "achieve X condition, win the game" spells, Mortal Combat is a powerful effect. If you play in a very casual environment or are new to EDH/MtG, it might seem curious that no one runs it (since we run so many creatures and want cards in our graveyard). To be fair, Coalition Victory is a similar card (though the conditions you have to meet are much easier than Mortal Combat), and yet it is actually banned in the format because the condition is so easy to achieve.
Anyway, I don't want to veer too off topic. Obviously it's better when people read the OP, but I still think there is value in discussions around cards that don't fit.
Blue lives don't matter in the slightest.
I agree, but also have this to say,
There is value in the discussion, but many users wont read through each post to see the discussion, just merely glance, post about a card related to the commander, then leave. I guess I've just been on CCG forums too long to where I see the cycle repeated. I dont mean to fault these users; they're just trying to be helpful. And hey, sometimes there IS a suggestion which just kind of hits you, like "Why AM I not running that?!".
Ie, I appreciate "Have you tried X card? I've seen it in other lists, you dont mention it anywhere, and it seems to synergize with A, B, and C in your list. Why the exclusion?", because it shows they put forth effort into their post. They thought about it's potential, saw I ran cards that work with it, and noticed I havent considered it. Mortal Combat merely fits "I see you haven't mentioned it".
Anyways. Sorry to veer off topic. No, for reasons you stated, Mortal Combat is far from ideal here. I'd rather run the new Emrakul, while it doesnt win the game on the spot, it is easier to pull off, synergizes with the deck and can stop the control/combo players from winning, and does tend to lead the game into a win or lose situation.
GB [Primer][Competitive][Stax][Combo] Meren of Clan Nel Toth 95% RETIRED
UW [Primer][Competitive][Combo][Stax] Brago, King Eternal RETIRED
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots (75%)
G Titania - 75%
W SRAM - Welcome to the cheeri0s jam 95%
U Teferi - stax 100%
R Neheb - janky mono red eggs combo 90%
B Gonti - 50% valuetown