True and I mostly agree I had just saw it in a Kaalia of the Vast deck and with that equipped to her or w/e it was pretty crazy.
It wouldn't do a whole lot equipped onto Kaalia... First off, the whole legendary thing is a bit of a downer, and secondly, the copies enter already tapped and attacking, and would not trigger Kaalia's ability.
Still, 4 mana to put a blade on Sakura-Tribe Elder is pretty fantastic value, and then pays for itself every future turn. The issue is that in Meren, you really need to be able to take advantage of free sac effects for powerful abilities in order to justify the 4 cost, and that's hard to do. Even the elk that costs G to sac and get a land, ends up being 8 mana for 4 land in a 4 player game. In theory you could leave the original alive and just bank on profits, but hopefully Meren is bringing something else back then.
I've reformatted the deck, so it's a bit easier to read.
Is there any kind of specific feed back you're looking for? And is this a modified precon, or a new list?
As a right off of the bad suggestion, Scavenge, while a fun ability, doesn't work well with Meren. You want to be returning things to play with her, preferably with effects that you can repeat (Like Sakura-Tribe Elder, Spore Frog or Grave Titan, for example. Exiling the card out of the graveyard makes it difficult to use.
Been running Mindless Automaton for a few weeks, I like it, it allows me to trade my Meren trigger for a card, or pay 1 for a "looter" effect.
Edit: also crazy shenanigans with Mikaeus and Ashnod's Altar.
..
But... why? It's 4 to draw a card. With mike, sure, you can draw your whole deck, but mike can do much more with many other better creatures. If you are returning him to play/hand, there are a multitude of better choices. Elvish Visionary if you need cards, Corpse Augur, Disciple of Bolas, etc, and even better with mike, Puppeteer Clique targeting someone else's Disciple of Bolas
As a looter, sure, I mean, it can do that too. Usually I'm casting those cards and sacrificing them, then returning them with Meren. I dont see a need for a looter unless your deck is virtually completely different from the rest of the thread! Edit: I sounded rude, I apologize. Can we see a list?
True and I mostly agree I had just saw it in a Kaalia of the Vast deck and with that equipped to her or w/e it was pretty crazy. I usually like things that people have to kill and it seemed like it might be one. However in Meren of Clan Nel Toth I can see the cost being too much since she usually uses more mana every turn than Kaalia.
Overall looks fairly solid, some of your removal and spells can be upgraded (Barter in Blood -> mutilate, for example), especially to give better wrath effects. Likewise, some creatures are still a bit weaker, Eater of Hope for example would be an easy cut if you had something else you wanted to bring in. Overall though, it's a solid list, with plenty of room to grow.
Looks good. For upgrades (long term), I'd look at investing in a mana base first. You don't need to go crazy and get, like, a Bayou, but cards like Phyrexian Tower and other dual lands are useful even if you decide you want another deck later on. Like Bob said, it's a pretty solid base if you ever decide to slowly upgrade it over time.
Beyond that, there's several deck lists in the comments on this thread, as well as my own in the OP if you want to look at what kinds of other decks are run for ideas!
Overall looks fairly solid, some of your removal and spells can be upgraded (Barter in Blood -> mutilate, for example), especially to give better wrath effects. Likewise, some creatures are still a bit weaker, Eater of Hope for example would be an easy cut if you had something else you wanted to bring in. Overall though, it's a solid list, with plenty of room to grow.
i'd stick with barter in blood just because of the fact that you get 2 free xp counters
i'd stick with barter in blood just because of the fact that you get 2 free xp counters
My personal experience playing with and against Meren is that experience counters aren't in short demand. For the most part you don't really need more than 5, and since you're running sac outlets, you shouldn't have a problem on that count even if you run a harder sweep, since you should still be able to sac anything that needs it in front of the sweeper.
I like Barter in Blood in general - typically players won't have more than 2-3 creatures out at a time, which makes this a nice controllable sweep, especially if you can unbalance it by having excess sac fodder to leave you with a better board position. My problem though is the other set of circumstances: Wraths are typically used to reset those people who flood the board wider than you do. In those situations, Barter is terrible, since they get the pick of what to keep. That's why I view barter as have the same slot role as edicts and other 'single' removal, rather than a sweeper. I feel it's important to have full sweepers in your deck, typically about 2-4 of them.
For Meren, the best sweeper is likely Kaemaro, First to Suffer. It's scalable, recurable, and he's a nasty beater in a pinch too. Plays well with Disciple of Bolas as well.
But, you also want variety in answers, so a spell or two are good adds as well: Decree of Pain is expensive, but powerful, and has alternate cheaper emergency use (or vs. counter wars). In Garruk's Wake, or Plague Wind are one-sided. Overwhelming Forces is selective, and powerful. All is Dust hits enchantments. Oblivion Stone hits artifacts and enchantments. Damnation is cheap, and hits everything. Mutilate requires some board presence/awareness, but also takes out indestructibles, etc.
I would highly suggest getting a Woodfall Primus and Avenger of Zendikar. Maybe get rid of Eldrazi Monument or the Golgari artifacts. It doesn't seem like you go wide enough for the monument and the Golgari artifacts don't seem strong at all.
A lot of these changes may seem a little odd, but the goal was to get some diversity in the kinds of creatures I was running. With this change, I'm adding fogs, discard, grave hate which makes other decks easier to deal with and gives me a wider range of answers to use with Meren. I've also picked up a second copy of Mana Crypt to add to this deck that I plan to try out and see if I like it.
Hi folks, I've been following this thread, built a Meren deck, and now have a rules questions I'm figuring someone here knows or has encountered in their games. If I use Meren of Clan Nel Toth to bring back Puppeteer Clique at the end of my turn, does the creature brought back get exiled at the cleanup step? Or does it stay with me until my next end step? Me and my friends were unsure since Puppeteer Clique was not on the battlefield at the initial end step sequence whether it's text applying to the end step triggered. Thanks for any clarification you folks can provide.
Hi folks, I've been following this thread, built a Meren deck, and now have a rules questions I'm figuring someone here knows or has encountered in their games. If I use Meren of Clan Nel Toth to bring back Puppeteer Clique at the end of my turn, does the creature brought back get exiled at the cleanup step? Or does it stay with me until my next end step? Me and my friends were unsure since Puppeteer Clique was not on the battlefield at the initial end step sequence whether it's text applying to the end step triggered. Thanks for any clarification you folks can provide.
It creates a delayed trigger that won't resolve until the beginning of your next end step. It would have needed to already be on the stack as your end step begins, not once Meren's ability resolves.
Hi folks, I've been following this thread, built a Meren deck, and now have a rules questions I'm figuring someone here knows or has encountered in their games. If I use Meren of Clan Nel Toth to bring back Puppeteer Clique at the end of my turn, does the creature brought back get exiled at the cleanup step? Or does it stay with me until my next end step? Me and my friends were unsure since Puppeteer Clique was not on the battlefield at the initial end step sequence whether it's text applying to the end step triggered. Thanks for any clarification you folks can provide.
Puppeteer Clique sets up a delayed triggered ability, that will fire the next time that trigger condition is met. Since you're already inside your end step, it can't trigger on this end step. It will wait until the next end step you get.
It won't do anything in the cleanup step, because nothing tells it to do anything there.
I have noticed a lot of you do not use Bloodghast this is easily the most reliable and versatile card I have found in Meren. The ability to sac it twice in one turn and even a 3rd time with Meren is too good. If I have something like Grave Pact up it actually just locks the game out itself. It is also great with Survival of the Fittest and other things like it including mill obviously. I would highly recommended it to anyone using Reassembling Skeleton.
@Airithne I will agree those changes do seem very weird to me. I don't know if Meren is the right deck for the cutthroat. The reason I say this is because if you can get to a spot to infinite sac you should win anyway that turn. Also replacing it with Bitterblossom is very strange to me that card seems like one of the top 15-20 cards in the deck. I would suggestion using Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest because it acts as another Mikaeus, the Unhallowed with persist creatures and can pump your creatures for an instant kill or mill to death with Altar of Dementia.
I have noticed a lot of you do not use Bloodghast this is easily the most reliable and versatile card I have found in Meren. The ability to sac it twice in one turn and even a 3rd time with Meren is too good. If I have something like Grave Pact up it actually just locks the game out itself. It is also great with Survival of the Fittest and other things like it including mill obviously. I would highly recommended it to anyone using Reassembling Skeleton.
I've really not liked Reassembling Skeleton and friends, because you need other cards in play to get any value from them. ETB creatures at least give you something if you're stalling out, and even a card like Sifter of Skulls can sacrifice itself for a card.
@Airithne I will agree those changes do seem very weird to me. I don't know if Meren is the right deck for the cutthroat. The reason I say this is because if you can get to a spot to infinite sac you should win anyway that turn. Also replacing it with Bitterblossom is very strange to me that card seems like one of the top 15-20 cards in the deck. I would suggestion using Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest because it acts as another Mikaeus, the Unhallowed with persist creatures and can pump your creatures for an instant kill or mill to death with Altar of Dementia.
Just some options to consider.
I actually cut Bitterblossom last; for Mana Crypt, specifically. That change only got lumped in because I had picked up a Judge Promo for my Lovisa list and shifted the copy I already owned in to this deck. I'm not sure if it will stick, just due to the grindy nature of this deck, but it speeds up my early game and I plan to keep it around if the upkeep trigger doesn't end up being too punishing. If it is, those two will be swapped back (alternatively, I might swap in Sifter of Skulls instead, if I can ever find a copy).
On Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest I know a lot of people really seem to like the card, but I've always felt that it's extremely underwhelming or even a dead card in an attrition deck. I cycle through different creatures so often that in a normal game, Meren and Mazirek would be the only one really benefiting from counters long term and I don't think it's a strong enough effect to put it in the list for persist triggers alone. Mikaeus is in the deck for his ability to double and ETB or LTB trigger first, and his combo potential second, as I'm not running any other pieces that combo out with him. Mazirek is a great general, but he encourages a different kind of playstyle.
Lastly, Zulaport Cutthroat has actually been one of the better additions to the deck. I typically close out games by looping Kokusho, the Evening Star or Gray Merchant of Asphodel, but it's significantly more difficult in games where life totals are relatively steady. He's not a quick way to drain the table, but the longer the game goes on, the more you can wear down your opponents without having the downfall of Blood Artist of only targeting one player at a time. It also has the benefit of filling the 2 drop slot for creatures, which I was extremely low on before the update. I believe other people who've added him have expressed similar sentiments.
I wasn't saying use Reassembling Skeleton I was saying if you are using it easily replace it with Bloodghast it usually costs 0 and never dies in meren as well as building 2 counters every turn I am of the strong belief it should be in any and every type of meren. I guess on the Zulaport Cutthroat logic I just don't see it being a big edition. Maybe it does 2 damage early game with the creatures you have? If you get the infinite sac outlet it should already be over without it and having to find another piece is a bit much. You also took out a solid target for it in Bitterblossom. Again though to be fair to everyone it all depends on the meta's we play in. I die way to fast for Koku or Gary to kill my opponents because their decks are degenerate lol. Also getting Meren to 6 or 5 counters means I had a great start. I ended up having to take Koku out and put Trike in because I was hitting everyone for 10 gaining 40 life then dying the next turn. That is why i added in Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest because if your deck is setup right for him and you prepared for him the game ends when he resolves. You can also search for him with Green sun's which is a plus in my deck and another target for Tooth and Nail.
I think it really depends on what zombie cards your running. Right now, I have four (could potentially be five, but I really prefer Merciless Executioner's art to Fleshbag Marauder). They are all good targets, but it makes the new guy's ability a bit inconsistent in my deck, specifically.
I wasn't saying use Reassembling Skeleton I was saying if you are using it easily replace it with Bloodghast it usually costs 0 and never dies in meren as well as building 2 counters every turn I am of the strong belief it should be in any and every type of meren.
I drew comparisons between it and the Skeleton because they both need something else in order to be useful, or they're just vanilla creatures. Even if I have nothing else going on for me, Elvish Visionary, for example, at least draws me in to something I can use, and even Cutthroat makes for a decent blocker (or lets you profit from other creatures dying to blocks/board wipes) with an LTB trigger. Bloodghast/Reassembling Skeleton are just vanilla dudes if you're not doing anything with them. I tend to prefer my ETB effects.
I'm not saying it's not a valid card to include, and I do think its value goes up quite a bit in lists that are more focused on stax, but I'm not a fan.
I guess on the Zulaport Cutthroat logic I just don't see it being a big edition. Maybe it does 2 damage early game with the creatures you have? If you get the infinite sac outlet it should already be over without it and having to find another piece is a bit much.
I guess you lost me here. Look at my list, I only have two ways to actually go infinite, and its Mikaeus, the Unhallowed + Woodfall Primus/Puppeteer Clique + any free sac outlet. Sure, either of those would certainly put me ahead, but what if I have Viscera Seer rather than Phyrexian Altar or Ashnod's Altar? Even with the altars, infinite mana doesn't win me the game without something else in hand. Neither Woodfall Primus or Puppeteer Clique actually put me into a position to win the game, necessarily. Clique is dependent on other people's graveyards, and while Woodfall Primus is crippling, there needs to be an empty board for me to actually lock the game down. Someone with a better board state creature-wise could still (and have in the past) kill me before I can find an answer to their creatures. I'd need a fourth card in those situations anyways (e.g. Grave Pact for the Primus or something similar to Cutthroat for Clique).
My list doesn't actually have many combos, I'm not trying to blitz out a win, and I wouldn't bother with Meren as my general if I were. I'd be running Jarad and actually include Triskelion and Necrotic Ooze combos if I wanted to go that route. Cutthroat fits the 'slow grindy attrition deck' I was going for.
You also took out a solid target for it in Bitterblossom.
I'm really starting to regret shoving the Mana Crypt update in with this, if only for this argument. Even if I took the cutthroat, I wouldn't necessarily put Bitterblossom back in, I'd likely at least test out something like Sifter of Skulls. The same will apply to Mana Crypt (the thing that actually replace Bitterblossom) if I decide that the upkeep trigger is too much for a slower deck.
Again though to be fair to everyone it all depends on the meta's we play in. I die way to fast for Koku or Gary to kill my opponents because their decks are degenerate lol. Also getting Meren to 6 or 5 counters means I had a great start. I ended up having to take Koku out and put Trike in because I was hitting everyone for 10 gaining 40 life then dying the next turn.
And I play in a control meta, so people only combo out on turn 4-5 is someone got a ridiculously good hand, and caught everyone unaware or no one had an answer. This isn't the deck I'd bring to a table of our actual cutthroat players, so there's not too much point in trying to speed it up (and this goes back to me picking a different general if I was going to speed it up anyways, because the whole point is that I wanted to build around Meren).
That said, in games that don't end in a blitz, there have been points where I've stopped counting experience counters, but it's not difficult to get up to at least 8. I do have several different tutors so it's not too difficult to get something like Spore Frog or Viscera Seer early to start working on counters for Meren.
That is why i added in Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest because if your deck is setup right for him and you prepared for him the game ends when he resolves. You can also search for him with Green sun's which is a plus in my deck and another target for Tooth and Nail.
My problem with Mazirek is that as another combo enabler, he's not doing much to win the game, and my deck is terrible at closing with combat damage without a good Sepulchral Primoridal, especially when I'm constantly sacrificing and reanimating things, preventing them from keeping the counters.
Hmmm ok, I saw the Tooth and Nail and got a different idea from your deck I guess. I would recommend looking at these cards then (which you most likely know about already but just throwing them out there to help). Death Cloud, Pox, From Beyond, Life from the Loam,Grave Pact, Attrition, Contamination. Just some ideas for the more attrition route. I would probably cut some of your high end for more low drop edict or token drops if you did go this route.
I would say that Bloodghast is far from a vanilla creature. I agree the Skeleton is because it costs 2. Bloodghast costs 2 only once and usually doesn't even do that since you mill it and its free. I don't want to keep pushing this card on anyone I just don't think that is a fair assessment of the card since it interacts with most of the cards in our lists and then you play a land and it does again in the same turn for 0 mana. Zulaport needs something to sac to get value so why not Bloodghast over something that isn't coming back the same turn?
The one thing I would argue is I like Satyr Wayfinder better than Elvish Visionary in this deck. The visionary is never a bad card though.
I mean to your point why not just play jarad its because i dropped Jarad for Meren because I think she is better in multiplayer the combos Jarad uses can only kill a couple people at most usually (outside of Mike n Trike which meren uses better because of recursion) one except for something like Lord of Extinction and Fling. She also cares a lot less about Rest in Peace (I play against 4 of these and spell bombs) than Jarad I think she is just better actually in multiplayer if your group is prepared for you. I could counter back with why not just play Oloro, ageless ascetic (obviously some different colors) but I like to think we pick Meren because we liked her and how she works.
Anyway good discussion I think I see where you are at more with your deck now. There are so many little preferences depending on who we play against its hard to come at this from the same angle.
Still, 4 mana to put a blade on Sakura-Tribe Elder is pretty fantastic value, and then pays for itself every future turn. The issue is that in Meren, you really need to be able to take advantage of free sac effects for powerful abilities in order to justify the 4 cost, and that's hard to do. Even the elk that costs G to sac and get a land, ends up being 8 mana for 4 land in a 4 player game. In theory you could leave the original alive and just bank on profits, but hopefully Meren is bringing something else back then.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Primordial Hydra
1 Phyrexian Plaguelord
1 Xathrid Gorgon
1 Dark Impostor
1 Eater of Hope
1 Corpse Augur
1 Korozda Guildmage
1 Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest
1 Mycoloth
1 Scourge of Nel Toth
1 Korozda Gorgon
1 Varolz, the Scar-Striped
1 Pharika, God of Affliction
1 Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger
1 Corpsejack Menace
1 Dreg Mangler
1 Golgari Decoy
1 Jarad, Gogari Lich lord
1 Pharika's Mender
1 Cultivate
1 Karn Liberated
1 Vraska, The Unseen
1 Into the Wilds
1 Primeval Bounty
1 The Chain Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Harmonize
1 Barter in Blood
1 Archetype of Endurance
1 Grisly Transformation
1 Cultivate
1 Army of the Damned
1 Curse of Predation
1 Golgari Rot Farm
1 Soul of the Harvest
1 Victimize
1 Golgari Charm
1 Golgari Signet
1 Grisly Salvage
1 Scourge of Nel Toth
1 Thought Vessel
1 Vow of Wildness
1 Reign of the Pit
1 Feed the Pack
1 Zombie Apocalypse
1 Deadbridge Chant
1 Gaze of Granite
1 Putrefy
1 Grisly Spectacle
1 Culling the Weak
1 Essence of the Wild
1 Hardened Scales
1 Jarad's Orders
1 Pharika's Mender
19 Swamp
18 Forest
Is there any kind of specific feed back you're looking for? And is this a modified precon, or a new list?
As a right off of the bad suggestion, Scavenge, while a fun ability, doesn't work well with Meren. You want to be returning things to play with her, preferably with effects that you can repeat (Like Sakura-Tribe Elder, Spore Frog or Grave Titan, for example. Exiling the card out of the graveyard makes it difficult to use.
My Helpdesk
[Pr] Marath | [Pr] Lovisa | Jodah | Saskia | Najeela | Yisan | Lord Windgrace | Atraxa | Meren | Gisa and Geralf
Edit: also crazy shenanigans with Mikaeus and Ashnod's Altar.
..
Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
But... why? It's 4 to draw a card. With mike, sure, you can draw your whole deck, but mike can do much more with many other better creatures. If you are returning him to play/hand, there are a multitude of better choices. Elvish Visionary if you need cards, Corpse Augur, Disciple of Bolas, etc, and even better with mike, Puppeteer Clique targeting someone else's Disciple of Bolas
As a looter, sure, I mean, it can do that too. Usually I'm casting those cards and sacrificing them, then returning them with Meren. I dont see a need for a looter unless your deck is virtually completely different from the rest of the thread! Edit: I sounded rude, I apologize. Can we see a list?
GB [Primer][Competitive][Stax][Combo] Meren of Clan Nel Toth 95% RETIRED
UW [Primer][Competitive][Combo][Stax] Brago, King Eternal RETIRED
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots (75%)
G Titania - 75%
W SRAM - Welcome to the cheeri0s jam 95%
U Teferi - stax 100%
R Neheb - janky mono red eggs combo 90%
B Gonti - 50% valuetown
Blade of Selves does nothing extra with Kaalia of the Vast since the copies miss their attack trigger.
Modern: Bogles // 8-Whack/Goblins // UW Titan // Hollow One // Affinity // Dredge
EDH: Nissa, Vastwood Seer // Atraxa, Praetor's Voice // Meren of Clan Nel Toth
Overall looks fairly solid, some of your removal and spells can be upgraded (Barter in Blood -> mutilate, for example), especially to give better wrath effects. Likewise, some creatures are still a bit weaker, Eater of Hope for example would be an easy cut if you had something else you wanted to bring in. Overall though, it's a solid list, with plenty of room to grow.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Isn't this exactly the Plunder the Graves deck card-for-card? O_o
~Lil Kalki
Proud Disciple of the Church of the Wary
Beyond that, there's several deck lists in the comments on this thread, as well as my own in the OP if you want to look at what kinds of other decks are run for ideas!
Even if it is, it's still not a bad idea to post a list and ask for ideas for upgrades/direction/etc.
My Helpdesk
[Pr] Marath | [Pr] Lovisa | Jodah | Saskia | Najeela | Yisan | Lord Windgrace | Atraxa | Meren | Gisa and Geralf
i'd stick with barter in blood just because of the fact that you get 2 free xp counters
I like Barter in Blood in general - typically players won't have more than 2-3 creatures out at a time, which makes this a nice controllable sweep, especially if you can unbalance it by having excess sac fodder to leave you with a better board position. My problem though is the other set of circumstances: Wraths are typically used to reset those people who flood the board wider than you do. In those situations, Barter is terrible, since they get the pick of what to keep. That's why I view barter as have the same slot role as edicts and other 'single' removal, rather than a sweeper. I feel it's important to have full sweepers in your deck, typically about 2-4 of them.
For Meren, the best sweeper is likely Kaemaro, First to Suffer. It's scalable, recurable, and he's a nasty beater in a pinch too. Plays well with Disciple of Bolas as well.
But, you also want variety in answers, so a spell or two are good adds as well: Decree of Pain is expensive, but powerful, and has alternate cheaper emergency use (or vs. counter wars). In Garruk's Wake, or Plague Wind are one-sided. Overwhelming Forces is selective, and powerful. All is Dust hits enchantments. Oblivion Stone hits artifacts and enchantments. Damnation is cheap, and hits everything. Mutilate requires some board presence/awareness, but also takes out indestructibles, etc.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
I would highly suggest getting a Woodfall Primus and Avenger of Zendikar. Maybe get rid of Eldrazi Monument or the Golgari artifacts. It doesn't seem like you go wide enough for the monument and the Golgari artifacts don't seem strong at all.
Out
Reassembling Skeleton
Fleshbag Marauder
Yavimaya Elder
Corpse Augur
Oracle of Mul Daya
Genesis
Bitterblossom
Altar of Dementia
In
Caustic Caterpillar
Spore Frog
Elvish Visionary
Zulaport Cutthroat
Matter Reshaper
Agent of Erebos
Mindslicer
Mana Crypt
A lot of these changes may seem a little odd, but the goal was to get some diversity in the kinds of creatures I was running. With this change, I'm adding fogs, discard, grave hate which makes other decks easier to deal with and gives me a wider range of answers to use with Meren. I've also picked up a second copy of Mana Crypt to add to this deck that I plan to try out and see if I like it.
My Helpdesk
[Pr] Marath | [Pr] Lovisa | Jodah | Saskia | Najeela | Yisan | Lord Windgrace | Atraxa | Meren | Gisa and Geralf
My Helpdesk
[Pr] Marath | [Pr] Lovisa | Jodah | Saskia | Najeela | Yisan | Lord Windgrace | Atraxa | Meren | Gisa and Geralf
Puppeteer Clique sets up a delayed triggered ability, that will fire the next time that trigger condition is met. Since you're already inside your end step, it can't trigger on this end step. It will wait until the next end step you get.
It won't do anything in the cleanup step, because nothing tells it to do anything there.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
@Airithne I will agree those changes do seem very weird to me. I don't know if Meren is the right deck for the cutthroat. The reason I say this is because if you can get to a spot to infinite sac you should win anyway that turn. Also replacing it with Bitterblossom is very strange to me that card seems like one of the top 15-20 cards in the deck. I would suggestion using Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest because it acts as another Mikaeus, the Unhallowed with persist creatures and can pump your creatures for an instant kill or mill to death with Altar of Dementia.
Just some options to consider.
I actually cut Bitterblossom last; for Mana Crypt, specifically. That change only got lumped in because I had picked up a Judge Promo for my Lovisa list and shifted the copy I already owned in to this deck. I'm not sure if it will stick, just due to the grindy nature of this deck, but it speeds up my early game and I plan to keep it around if the upkeep trigger doesn't end up being too punishing. If it is, those two will be swapped back (alternatively, I might swap in Sifter of Skulls instead, if I can ever find a copy).
On Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest I know a lot of people really seem to like the card, but I've always felt that it's extremely underwhelming or even a dead card in an attrition deck. I cycle through different creatures so often that in a normal game, Meren and Mazirek would be the only one really benefiting from counters long term and I don't think it's a strong enough effect to put it in the list for persist triggers alone. Mikaeus is in the deck for his ability to double and ETB or LTB trigger first, and his combo potential second, as I'm not running any other pieces that combo out with him. Mazirek is a great general, but he encourages a different kind of playstyle.
Lastly, Zulaport Cutthroat has actually been one of the better additions to the deck. I typically close out games by looping Kokusho, the Evening Star or Gray Merchant of Asphodel, but it's significantly more difficult in games where life totals are relatively steady. He's not a quick way to drain the table, but the longer the game goes on, the more you can wear down your opponents without having the downfall of Blood Artist of only targeting one player at a time. It also has the benefit of filling the 2 drop slot for creatures, which I was extremely low on before the update. I believe other people who've added him have expressed similar sentiments.
My Helpdesk
[Pr] Marath | [Pr] Lovisa | Jodah | Saskia | Najeela | Yisan | Lord Windgrace | Atraxa | Meren | Gisa and Geralf
Marath, Will of the Wild
Friendly Kess Twin Combo
Tatyova - Sir Bounce A Lot
Gonti's Luxury Pie
Prime (Eldrazi) Speaker Zegana (Retired)
I drew comparisons between it and the Skeleton because they both need something else in order to be useful, or they're just vanilla creatures. Even if I have nothing else going on for me, Elvish Visionary, for example, at least draws me in to something I can use, and even Cutthroat makes for a decent blocker (or lets you profit from other creatures dying to blocks/board wipes) with an LTB trigger. Bloodghast/Reassembling Skeleton are just vanilla dudes if you're not doing anything with them. I tend to prefer my ETB effects.
I'm not saying it's not a valid card to include, and I do think its value goes up quite a bit in lists that are more focused on stax, but I'm not a fan.
I guess you lost me here. Look at my list, I only have two ways to actually go infinite, and its Mikaeus, the Unhallowed + Woodfall Primus/Puppeteer Clique + any free sac outlet. Sure, either of those would certainly put me ahead, but what if I have Viscera Seer rather than Phyrexian Altar or Ashnod's Altar? Even with the altars, infinite mana doesn't win me the game without something else in hand. Neither Woodfall Primus or Puppeteer Clique actually put me into a position to win the game, necessarily. Clique is dependent on other people's graveyards, and while Woodfall Primus is crippling, there needs to be an empty board for me to actually lock the game down. Someone with a better board state creature-wise could still (and have in the past) kill me before I can find an answer to their creatures. I'd need a fourth card in those situations anyways (e.g. Grave Pact for the Primus or something similar to Cutthroat for Clique).
My list doesn't actually have many combos, I'm not trying to blitz out a win, and I wouldn't bother with Meren as my general if I were. I'd be running Jarad and actually include Triskelion and Necrotic Ooze combos if I wanted to go that route. Cutthroat fits the 'slow grindy attrition deck' I was going for.
I'm really starting to regret shoving the Mana Crypt update in with this, if only for this argument. Even if I took the cutthroat, I wouldn't necessarily put Bitterblossom back in, I'd likely at least test out something like Sifter of Skulls. The same will apply to Mana Crypt (the thing that actually replace Bitterblossom) if I decide that the upkeep trigger is too much for a slower deck.
And I play in a control meta, so people only combo out on turn 4-5 is someone got a ridiculously good hand, and caught everyone unaware or no one had an answer. This isn't the deck I'd bring to a table of our actual cutthroat players, so there's not too much point in trying to speed it up (and this goes back to me picking a different general if I was going to speed it up anyways, because the whole point is that I wanted to build around Meren).
That said, in games that don't end in a blitz, there have been points where I've stopped counting experience counters, but it's not difficult to get up to at least 8. I do have several different tutors so it's not too difficult to get something like Spore Frog or Viscera Seer early to start working on counters for Meren.
My problem with Mazirek is that as another combo enabler, he's not doing much to win the game, and my deck is terrible at closing with combat damage without a good Sepulchral Primoridal, especially when I'm constantly sacrificing and reanimating things, preventing them from keeping the counters.
My Helpdesk
[Pr] Marath | [Pr] Lovisa | Jodah | Saskia | Najeela | Yisan | Lord Windgrace | Atraxa | Meren | Gisa and Geralf
I would say that Bloodghast is far from a vanilla creature. I agree the Skeleton is because it costs 2. Bloodghast costs 2 only once and usually doesn't even do that since you mill it and its free. I don't want to keep pushing this card on anyone I just don't think that is a fair assessment of the card since it interacts with most of the cards in our lists and then you play a land and it does again in the same turn for 0 mana. Zulaport needs something to sac to get value so why not Bloodghast over something that isn't coming back the same turn?
The one thing I would argue is I like Satyr Wayfinder better than Elvish Visionary in this deck. The visionary is never a bad card though.
I mean to your point why not just play jarad its because i dropped Jarad for Meren because I think she is better in multiplayer the combos Jarad uses can only kill a couple people at most usually (outside of Mike n Trike which meren uses better because of recursion) one except for something like Lord of Extinction and Fling. She also cares a lot less about Rest in Peace (I play against 4 of these and spell bombs) than Jarad I think she is just better actually in multiplayer if your group is prepared for you. I could counter back with why not just play Oloro, ageless ascetic (obviously some different colors) but I like to think we pick Meren because we liked her and how she works.
Anyway good discussion I think I see where you are at more with your deck now. There are so many little preferences depending on who we play against its hard to come at this from the same angle.