[quote]pattern of rebirth is a pretty crazy good card you're not running. The OP list is missing it, too.
My biggest problems with Pattern are that it's very slow (like gromgrom said), and that it in our colors, we don't have a way to use it as well as something like Boonweaver Giant. Any way that we could, like Eternal Witness, for example, is significantly slower, so I pulled it out of the deck early on. It's a great card if it's something you can consistently make it work, but I wasn't a fan of it for my own list.
Yep, Pattern is not bad! If it works for you use it! It's just as your deck improves and you want to increase the speed, you want to use it less.
Example, it does put a creature into play, but
you not only need a target to enchant
but they need to be sacrificed and not exiled prior by an opponent
Takes up the same slot as Meren. I'd rather case Meren than use this card.
You replace one creature with another. It does get around counters, but it requires quite a bit of setup.
Also, I will continue to contribute to this thread for more midrange/75% Meren decks, but I'm slowly transitioning mine into a competitive Stax build, and you can view it in my sig (shameless plug). As a result, I wont post my changelog or list here as to not distract from the theme of the discussion unless requested
Does that combo actually work? I would guess that, after re-entering the battlefield due to the persist trigger, the creature would be a new object, and thus no longer the "target creature" initially targeted by Cauldron of Souls (meaning that sacrificing it again would not trigger persist).
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Playing with proxied cards at sanctioned events is good, actually.
Thoughts on Joraga Treespeaker as an early dork that can be a mana dump for more explosive turns? Ie, you have a turn 1 play, but no turn 2, so you lay your land, level him up, then you have 4 mana on the board. Bonus points if Elf Tribal is a theme in your deck.
Jagora Treespeaker is not bad. It's good in the specific situation you pointed out. In fact, it's even better than that. You can still make your turn-2 play so long as it can be paid for with GG.
However, I'm generally not a fan because recurring it with Meren doesn't offer immediate value. Quite the opposite in fact. Instead, you have to dump 2 mana into getting its mana ability online, or 3 if you play it from hand (when Meren has zero experience).
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Playing with proxied cards at sanctioned events is good, actually.
Jagora Treespeaker is not bad. It's good in the specific situation you pointed out. In fact, it's even better than that. You can still make your turn-2 play so long as it can be paid for with GG.
However, I'm generally not a fan because recurring it with Meren doesn't offer immediate value. Quite the opposite in fact. Instead, you have to dump 2 mana into getting its mana ability online, or 3 if you play it from hand (when Meren has zero experience).
I guess my opinion on the matter is skewed by the fact that my group regularly does things like Stifle fetchlands/denying early mana at every possible opportunity, even when it doesn't make sense. Just thinking about it has got me tilting. hehe
You're right, though. The card is better here than my initial evaluation.
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Playing with proxied cards at sanctioned events is good, actually.
I guess my opinion on the matter is skewed by the fact that my group regularly does things like Stifle fetchlands/denying early mana at every possible opportunity, even when it doesn't make sense. Just thinking about it has got me tilting. hehe
You're right, though. The card is better here than my initial evaluation.
Oh gosh that's just plain evil. I've had it happen to me once before though Totally understand haha.
Oh no doubt. I'm so happy with this tutor that they didnt stipulate that the creature has to be green, so one can grab Necrotic Ooze, Mike, Mindslicer, and other fun fatties on the cheap.
Very excited about the new tutor. What's the opinion about Emrakul's Evangel , as a way to get many exp counters fast, and Voldaren Pariah for redudancy?
Very excited about the new tutor. What's the opinion about Emrakul's Evangel , as a way to get many exp counters fast, and Voldaren Pariah for redudancy?
I like how well they synergize with the deck, and are great replacements for other sacrifice outlets like attrition, phyrexian altar, etc. I personally wont be running them, and here's why: I typically find when you try to load up on experience counters fast, you sacrifice your board presence to do so. Meren can only return one creature per turn, and if for some reason she would be Path'd or the like in response to you wiping your board for counters, you're out ALOT of tempo. I find sacrificing 1 creature, MAYBE 2 creatures a turn to be ideal, but only if necessary. You dont want to open yourself up to grave hate, and you dont want to destroy your board presence just so you can get to reanimating fatties quicker. I find playing the slower game, in slowly building counters, to be more ideal.
My biggest disappointment with Eldritch Evolution is that it exiles itself as part of its resolution, so you you get one shot with it. Still, I have a spot saved to test it on once the set releases.
I'm not sure how I feel about Emrakul's Evangel. It's certainly impactful, but also quite fragile. As for the Pariah, I would probably only slot it in after you're already running Fleshbag Marauder and Merciless Executioner, and still want another redundancy. It does require you to commit more creatures to the board to flip it than I'm typically comfortable with outside of tokens though.
Very excited about the new tutor. What's the opinion about Emrakul's Evangel , as a way to get many exp counters fast, and Voldaren Pariah for redudancy?
I like how well they synergize with the deck, and are great replacements for other sacrifice outlets like attrition, phyrexian altar, etc. I personally wont be running them, and here's why: I typically find when you try to load up on experience counters fast, you sacrifice your board presence to do so. Meren can only return one creature per turn, and if for some reason she would be Path'd or the like in response to you wiping your board for counters, you're out ALOT of tempo. I find sacrificing 1 creature, MAYBE 2 creatures a turn to be ideal, but only if necessary. You dont want to open yourself up to grave hate, and you dont want to destroy your board presence just so you can get to reanimating fatties quicker. I find playing the slower game, in slowly building counters, to be more ideal.
This is also the opinion I have with the mass sacrifice effects. I'd prefer to only have to sacrifice one creature at a time to reduce the risk of a blow out.
Since new interesting cards are popping in, I'll ask again: What do you think about Collective Brutality for dumping our creatures to the yard? I used to run Last Rites for a similar effect.
Also, if only Distended Mindbender's ability would be an etb one... so close..
Since new interesting cards are popping in, I'll ask again: What do you think about Collective Brutality for dumping our creatures to the yard? I used to run Last Rites for a similar effect.
Also, if only Distended Mindbender's ability would be an etb one... so close..
I also wish it was ETB. Or even an exile clause. It's... ok in 1v1, but there are better effects. You'd need to return it to hand with Meren and then recast it to get the value out of it you want. Last Rites is definitely cool, and I think Brutality is meta dependent. It gets rid of pesky mana/utility dorks while still being a pitch enabler, but Rites hitting hands is also pretty important.
Delver is quite solid if your targets tend to be smaller creatures, like Spore Frog or Reclamation Sage so Meren can be animating other creatures. However, at the end of the day, it's an overcosted Animated Dead-esque card on a body, since you wont be animating this guy with Meren except to perhaps build a board...even then...
Since new interesting cards are popping in, I'll ask again: What do you think about Collective Brutality for dumping our creatures to the yard? I used to run Last Rites for a similar effect.
Also, if only Distended Mindbender's ability would be an etb one... so close..
I'll echo what others have said, in that I wish it was more impactful for multiplayer. As is, I probably won't bother freeing up space for it.
Depends on how much you'll actually have to pull back with it, in addition to the quality of creatures you're bringing back. I think I prefer something more controlled, like Phyrexian Reclamation to it, because it helps you dodge grave hate, rather than a more one shot effect (even if Meren can't bring it back).
Wake the Dead is probably the best way to amass experience counters quickly, in my opinion, without sacrificing your board state. Bonus points if you can get multiple ETB/LTB/other effects off of Wake. I used it when my deck was Shattergang, and it did okay.
I think for changes, I'm going to test out Eldritch Evolution (and hopefully, find a way to get less creepy art!) in place o f Matter Reshaper for the time being. It's probably my most flexible spot, so it's a good option to test newly released cards.
I haven't seen too much else jump out of me for this set. There are cards that can fit into other builds if you've got the right set up, but not much that is interesting on a large scale.
Yep, Pattern is not bad! If it works for you use it! It's just as your deck improves and you want to increase the speed, you want to use it less.
Example, it does put a creature into play, but
Also, I will continue to contribute to this thread for more midrange/75% Meren decks, but I'm slowly transitioning mine into a competitive Stax build, and you can view it in my sig (shameless plug). As a result, I wont post my changelog or list here as to not distract from the theme of the discussion unless requested
GB [Primer][Competitive][Stax][Combo] Meren of Clan Nel Toth 95% RETIRED
UW [Primer][Competitive][Combo][Stax] Brago, King Eternal RETIRED
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots (75%)
G Titania - 75%
W SRAM - Welcome to the cheeri0s jam 95%
U Teferi - stax 100%
R Neheb - janky mono red eggs combo 90%
B Gonti - 50% valuetown
@P_P - It looks solid, given your self-restrictions.
My Helpdesk
[Pr] Marath | [Pr] Lovisa | Jodah | Saskia | Najeela | Yisan | Lord Windgrace | Atraxa | Meren | Gisa and Geralf
Blue lives don't matter in the slightest.
GB [Primer][Competitive][Stax][Combo] Meren of Clan Nel Toth 95% RETIRED
UW [Primer][Competitive][Combo][Stax] Brago, King Eternal RETIRED
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots (75%)
G Titania - 75%
W SRAM - Welcome to the cheeri0s jam 95%
U Teferi - stax 100%
R Neheb - janky mono red eggs combo 90%
B Gonti - 50% valuetown
However, I'm generally not a fan because recurring it with Meren doesn't offer immediate value. Quite the opposite in fact. Instead, you have to dump 2 mana into getting its mana ability online, or 3 if you play it from hand (when Meren has zero experience).
Blue lives don't matter in the slightest.
Also, for the t1, t2 question, even if you have a t2 play, you can level him up, and then use him to do the t2 play. He's Green's second sol ring.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Yep! I'm gonna test him methinks, and edit my post to reflect this. TY!
GB [Primer][Competitive][Stax][Combo] Meren of Clan Nel Toth 95% RETIRED
UW [Primer][Competitive][Combo][Stax] Brago, King Eternal RETIRED
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots (75%)
G Titania - 75%
W SRAM - Welcome to the cheeri0s jam 95%
U Teferi - stax 100%
R Neheb - janky mono red eggs combo 90%
B Gonti - 50% valuetown
Blue lives don't matter in the slightest.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
You're right, though. The card is better here than my initial evaluation.
Blue lives don't matter in the slightest.
Oh gosh that's just plain evil. I've had it happen to me once before though Totally understand haha.
GB [Primer][Competitive][Stax][Combo] Meren of Clan Nel Toth 95% RETIRED
UW [Primer][Competitive][Combo][Stax] Brago, King Eternal RETIRED
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots (75%)
G Titania - 75%
W SRAM - Welcome to the cheeri0s jam 95%
U Teferi - stax 100%
R Neheb - janky mono red eggs combo 90%
B Gonti - 50% valuetown
C Kozilek C
GB Gitrog GB
G Titania G
WU Brago WU
GB MerenGB
Duel Commander Decks
UR Keranos UR
BRG Jund BRG
GR Tron GR GW Tron GW
C Eldrazi Tron (SB) C
BG Lantern Control BG
UW Control (SB) UW
Oh no doubt. I'm so happy with this tutor that they didnt stipulate that the creature has to be green, so one can grab Necrotic Ooze, Mike, Mindslicer, and other fun fatties on the cheap.
GB [Primer][Competitive][Stax][Combo] Meren of Clan Nel Toth 95% RETIRED
UW [Primer][Competitive][Combo][Stax] Brago, King Eternal RETIRED
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots (75%)
G Titania - 75%
W SRAM - Welcome to the cheeri0s jam 95%
U Teferi - stax 100%
R Neheb - janky mono red eggs combo 90%
B Gonti - 50% valuetown
Marath, Will of the Wild
Friendly Kess Twin Combo
Tatyova - Sir Bounce A Lot
Gonti's Luxury Pie
Prime (Eldrazi) Speaker Zegana (Retired)
I like how well they synergize with the deck, and are great replacements for other sacrifice outlets like attrition, phyrexian altar, etc. I personally wont be running them, and here's why: I typically find when you try to load up on experience counters fast, you sacrifice your board presence to do so. Meren can only return one creature per turn, and if for some reason she would be Path'd or the like in response to you wiping your board for counters, you're out ALOT of tempo. I find sacrificing 1 creature, MAYBE 2 creatures a turn to be ideal, but only if necessary. You dont want to open yourself up to grave hate, and you dont want to destroy your board presence just so you can get to reanimating fatties quicker. I find playing the slower game, in slowly building counters, to be more ideal.
GB [Primer][Competitive][Stax][Combo] Meren of Clan Nel Toth 95% RETIRED
UW [Primer][Competitive][Combo][Stax] Brago, King Eternal RETIRED
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots (75%)
G Titania - 75%
W SRAM - Welcome to the cheeri0s jam 95%
U Teferi - stax 100%
R Neheb - janky mono red eggs combo 90%
B Gonti - 50% valuetown
I'm not sure how I feel about Emrakul's Evangel. It's certainly impactful, but also quite fragile. As for the Pariah, I would probably only slot it in after you're already running Fleshbag Marauder and Merciless Executioner, and still want another redundancy. It does require you to commit more creatures to the board to flip it than I'm typically comfortable with outside of tokens though.
My Helpdesk
[Pr] Marath | [Pr] Lovisa | Jodah | Saskia | Najeela | Yisan | Lord Windgrace | Atraxa | Meren | Gisa and Geralf
This is also the opinion I have with the mass sacrifice effects. I'd prefer to only have to sacrifice one creature at a time to reduce the risk of a blow out.
C Kozilek C
GB Gitrog GB
G Titania G
WU Brago WU
GB MerenGB
Duel Commander Decks
UR Keranos UR
BRG Jund BRG
GR Tron GR GW Tron GW
C Eldrazi Tron (SB) C
BG Lantern Control BG
UW Control (SB) UW
Also, if only Distended Mindbender's ability would be an etb one... so close..
Marath, Will of the Wild
Friendly Kess Twin Combo
Tatyova - Sir Bounce A Lot
Gonti's Luxury Pie
Prime (Eldrazi) Speaker Zegana (Retired)
I also wish it was ETB. Or even an exile clause. It's... ok in 1v1, but there are better effects. You'd need to return it to hand with Meren and then recast it to get the value out of it you want. Last Rites is definitely cool, and I think Brutality is meta dependent. It gets rid of pesky mana/utility dorks while still being a pitch enabler, but Rites hitting hands is also pretty important.
Delver is quite solid if your targets tend to be smaller creatures, like Spore Frog or Reclamation Sage so Meren can be animating other creatures. However, at the end of the day, it's an overcosted Animated Dead-esque card on a body, since you wont be animating this guy with Meren except to perhaps build a board...even then...
GB [Primer][Competitive][Stax][Combo] Meren of Clan Nel Toth 95% RETIRED
UW [Primer][Competitive][Combo][Stax] Brago, King Eternal RETIRED
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots (75%)
G Titania - 75%
W SRAM - Welcome to the cheeri0s jam 95%
U Teferi - stax 100%
R Neheb - janky mono red eggs combo 90%
B Gonti - 50% valuetown
Depends on how much you'll actually have to pull back with it, in addition to the quality of creatures you're bringing back. I think I prefer something more controlled, like Phyrexian Reclamation to it, because it helps you dodge grave hate, rather than a more one shot effect (even if Meren can't bring it back).
My Helpdesk
[Pr] Marath | [Pr] Lovisa | Jodah | Saskia | Najeela | Yisan | Lord Windgrace | Atraxa | Meren | Gisa and Geralf
GB [Primer][Competitive][Stax][Combo] Meren of Clan Nel Toth 95% RETIRED
UW [Primer][Competitive][Combo][Stax] Brago, King Eternal RETIRED
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots (75%)
G Titania - 75%
W SRAM - Welcome to the cheeri0s jam 95%
U Teferi - stax 100%
R Neheb - janky mono red eggs combo 90%
B Gonti - 50% valuetown
I haven't seen too much else jump out of me for this set. There are cards that can fit into other builds if you've got the right set up, but not much that is interesting on a large scale.
My Helpdesk
[Pr] Marath | [Pr] Lovisa | Jodah | Saskia | Najeela | Yisan | Lord Windgrace | Atraxa | Meren | Gisa and Geralf