It seems our dividing issue then is you can afford to spend the turn investing in wiping. I need it to come later, after I've been playing through some motions of the turn. Maybe I can slow down a bit, but there is a decent amount of sorceries to be casting so I rarely have more than counter mana after I pass turn.
I run both. Untapping is cool. Reset I think is more of a back up plan/tool to make more counter mana and trick players into casting their big spells. So if you're missing it, I wouldnt sweat it. I think I'm going to have a maybeboard so if people are missing cards they have fill in ideas
Yeah, I don't want to waste the slot. Taking a turn to tap out to cast instant later is a bit too slow for my tastes, especially since if I tried that with it set up, the card would eat removal and I'd be right back in the same spot but further behind. For this deck, I'd like to invest in permanents as little as possible
Extraplanar Lens exiles a land which makes it a lot worse to lose to removal, and doesn't align with Hurkyl's Recall. Bauble is too slow, I cut Cloud of Faeries from original list because I can't really net mana outside of high tide, which the deck doesn't need. Rebuild is not something I need. Hurkyl's Recall seems enough. Snap may be the next card I cut, but I'm gonna sit down and review everything now. I think I may have swapped out a card or two and not updated list.
More cuts, but keeping these and a few of the others cut before close at hand. This is all still testing so list is not finalized. Cards cut now may come back later.
Epic Experiment -> Mox Diamond Need a few less X spells right now, and this seemed the best cut since it's pretty much a bad Mind's Desire. However, I really like it as a goldfishing card if pumping Mizzix's counters seems viable. As of now, I hit 4-5 and it doesn't really matter after that.
Comet Storm -> Chain of Vapor Storm will probably be the first back, but for right now it can't seem to do what it needs to when it needs to. Cutting Seething Song reinforced this. Casting Reiterate on Frantic Search is more fun and syngerizes with everything a little better. As of right now, search really seems to be a VIP
Snap -> Thirst for Knowledge Another card that never can do what it needs to when it needs to. COuld just be how little I've piloted it so far, but more digging seems better. I remember thinking how cool it'd be to abuse Flow of Ideas but it seems sticking with the old draw spells and getting them to U quicker is better for the deck. Flow may be out next.
Spelltwine -> Recoup The hardest commander oriented card to cut. I think exiling my own stuff should be only a win-con. Maybe if I was doing Enter the Infinite, but for right now another Mystic Retrieval seems better since it can work from the yard, is cast red mana that is sometimes useless, and can potentially be used twice. Mind's Desire and Time Warp are my usual targets with Mystic anyways.
If anyone has any thoughts, let me know. Really want this finely tuned by thanksgiving when I go to my meta at home.
I agree with most of these changes.
I like spelltwine too much right now but it's hard to decide if it's win more.
Seething song is not needed since you can infinite mana + storm with reality shift or turnabout which are insane here.
I've been liking Jace in my build but I may cut him soon as well. There are just too many toys to work with
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Hey guys so I've actually moved on from commander on to 60 card decks so I don't have any commander decks.
Anyway I've started my own gameplay channel in which I play games (Magic also)
I think that's my exact problem. Some of these reasons are kind of me just justifying to myself. I probably could've kept a lot, but I was drawn to changing cards for permanent type or purpose for this cycle. I also want to test some of these to see if it makes other cards viable. I'm bindering everything right now. I feel like I'm going to need an alternate build to play all the fun cards when I get invited to play with some casual friends. This deck is the puzzle box I've been looking for.
It also seems like we're hitting the same basic thought
The commander dependent cards are too cute while the untap cards are insane
I'm likely to cut Spell burst and power sink for pyroblast and red elemental blast after Tuesday.
Blue Sun/Stroke have been fairly decent so they may stay.
I'm also likely to remove most of the lands that are not islands
Sulfur falls, shivan reef, and maybe academy ruins are on the fence since I often don't play lands until I can hit a fetch to get a dual or a basic island.
I pretty much get the two duals (Hopefully oath will give us a third) and then exclusively islands
So that's nice, I guess I can trade them all in for a candelabra or something.
I also have noticed I can easily draw my entire deck on turn 3-4 with decent set up so lab man is likely to go in regardless on if I add enter the infinite.
I still like spelltwine as it helps up me from 2 experience to 5 pretty easy and getting my opponents tutor to get Mind's Desire is always nice.
And Tezzeret's gambit has always been good here but cutting the cute cards seems like the way to go here.
Looking forward to see where your list goes from here.
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Hey guys so I've actually moved on from commander on to 60 card decks so I don't have any commander decks.
Anyway I've started my own gameplay channel in which I play games (Magic also)
Wayfarer's Babble will become Chrome Mox if Moxnix's Grixis Storm deck is any predictor. I switched out Arcane Denial for Swan Song. Is waiting to cast Mizzix with a blue open to insure she resolves or to counter removal faulty thinking? Has your testing found this to be relevant? Is it or Pyroblast on your radar?
Thanks for this thread. I have really enjoyed keeping up with the updates.
Dies_to_Doom_Blade, I have been checking your list also and have learned a lot from your posts.
Hi, I am attracted by Mizzix after the C15 release game with my friends. Of course, I used this goblin lady. Now I am thinking about turn it into a competitive casual play deck in local meta and after some research I found the thread by Dies_to_Doom_Blade and Welgo, both are very inspiring and here's my concerns:
1. Have you tested both lists in a real game? I see there's little protective methods like Lightning Greaves or lot's of counter spells. Then how hard is it for Mizzix to survive under common removal spells namely all the "SoP"s and black "Edict" s ? What's your plan? Hold Mizzix for enough mana and then burst into +4 experience counters in one shot? My meta plays two-headed giant EDH, so I wonder if Mizzix can last to that point.
2. How hard is the lists against popular decks like Prosch, Animar, Marath, etc. ?
Kingprotoss, that is an excellent post. I had been thinking about protection including more counterspells and possibly Lightening Greaves. Pact of Negation, Pyroblast, and Swan Song are the additional counters in Moxnix's Grixis deck. He plays Counterspell instead of Arcane Denial. Would three additional counter spells be sufficient?
I've tried out Mizzix in place of melek and I think it's pretty good so far. CMC4 is a lot more do-able.
My list is a little out of date - but I'll recommend taking a look at my list. Pay particular attention to alhammarret's archive. Once that sticks, I've never lost a game afterwards.
Hi, I am attracted by Mizzix after the C15 release game with my friends. Of course, I used this goblin lady. Now I am thinking about turn it into a competitive casual play deck in local meta and after some research I found the thread by Dies_to_Doom_Blade and Welgo, both are very inspiring and here's my concerns:
1. Have you tested both lists in a real game? I see there's little protective methods like Lightning Greaves or lot's of counter spells. Then how hard is it for Mizzix to survive under common removal spells namely all the "SoP"s and black "Edict" s ? What's your plan? Hold Mizzix for enough mana and then burst into +4 experience counters in one shot? My meta plays two-headed giant EDH, so I wonder if Mizzix can last to that point.
2. How hard is the lists against popular decks like Prosch, Animar, Marath, etc. ?
1. I've tested my lists in real games. I'll probably be adding Song and blast at some point. Spellburst is on its way out. I held off on casting her til I had counter mana after the first few games when it became clear resolving her can meet a lot. I don't like greaves because they play their spell in response to the equip. Letting your protection add the first experience counter instead of investing and playing it the turn before seems better.
2. It can compete with popular decks, however the most reputable leaders (animar, narset, and doomblade's Tasigur list minus a few $100+~ cards) aren't fully optimized and most of them are still learning some aspects of the deck, so I know it hasn't been as bad as it will be, but I don't consider my deck done so I'm fine with it. I feel liek ti'll be a while with how many cards there are to try befor eI think it's done.
3. I doubt any will see play. I'm getting closer and closer to my other blue decks as far as draw goes, because it seems (I blame the excitement of her ability for overlooking this) casting the standard cards like Thirst for Knowledge for 1 and U or U is much much faster and efficient.
4. Mana Severance honestly isn't worth it. I'd rather something that just provides cards. The land count is low enough where I'm not sweating something like hitting a few lands off Desire because so far 3/4 times it leads to the game ending, the 4th time just ended up with a Temporal Fissured board and me discarding down to 7 from 15+.
Picked this up from a fb commander page. You can hold priority in response to a Mizzix trigger and cast another spell of the same cost if you want to rack up counters. For example, Cast Preordain. Mizzix's ability triggers and is on stack. Hold priority. Cast Brainstorm. Mizzix's ability triggers since the first is still on stack and no counter has been placed on her yet. This is cool and big indication for me for some future ideas..I know in theory you can pretty much win the game upon netting mana from Frantic Searching..back to the drawing board.
Picked this up from a fb commander page. You can hold priority in response to a Mizzix trigger and cast another spell of the same cost if you want to rack up counters. For example, Cast Preordain. Mizzix's ability triggers and is on stack. Hold priority. Cast Brainstorm. Mizzix's ability triggers since the first is still on stack and no counter has been placed on her yet. This is cool and big indication for me for some future ideas..I know in theory you can pretty much win the game upon netting mana from Frantic Searching..back to the drawing board.
Wow, I didn't see it could be used this way, interesting. Then the lady is more powerful then previously thinking. And thank you for all the replies to my questions. I am going to test your list today with my friends.
Burntgerbil, Retraced Image is interesting. Can you elaborate on experiences with it?
As you can see, my land list is extremely island-heavy to capitalize on high tide.
90% of the time, retraced image is utilized as land ramp for U - other times, its useful before or after a draw-7 to stick an extra land. Occasionally, it'll even work for other cards - I think I stuck an Alhammerret's Archive with it not too long ago.
Often, my favorite plays with this deck are Opening hamds like:
Island, Retraced Image>Island#2, Mana Crypt, Windfall....
Yup. You can hold priority and respond to the exp counter. It's pretty good.
In other news, someone in my playgroup built this deck. Thanks a lot, ya arses.
Frank_Glascock, thank u for the replies. This afternoon I tested the deck (mainly based on Welgo's list) in 3 players multi-game. I found there's a logic behind the lack of protections: the timing are more important than the protection. U can hold Mizzix for enough mama and cast her out to accumulate 3 or 4 experience counters in one or two turns, and then her present is of little relevant. U can let her die and waiting for the right moment to let her out and win the game. More protections is good but with too many such cards u are getting harder to make the storm or infinite mana process fluid. So now I am temporally happy with the lists, but more tests are needed.
btw,sometimes u can win without Mizzix, just 6~8 lands and with Turnabout/Reality Spasm and Reiterate in hand u can win with infinite mana by Comet Storm or stroke of genius. For this reason, I added Nivix Guildmage to reinforce this wincon and turned out to be very effective. Guildmage with those cards can also let u win without your commander. I win 4 of the 5 games this afternoon, which impressed me even more on how effective and powerful this deck could be, in one of these games I won with empty board by Epic experiment and Mind's Desire!
Frank_Glascock, thank u for the replies. This afternoon I tested the deck (mainly based on Welgo's list) in 3 players multi-game. I found there's a logic behind the lack of protections: the timing are more important than the protection. U can hold Mizzix for enough mama and cast her out to accumulate 3 or 4 experience counters in one or two turns, and then her present is of little relevant. U can let her die and waiting for the right moment to let her out and win the game. More protections is good but with too many such cards u are getting harder to make the storm or infinite mana process fluid. So now I am temporally happy with the lists, but more tests are needed.
btw,sometimes u can win without Mizzix, just 6~8 lands and with Turnabout/Reality Spasm and Reiterate in hand u can win with infinite mana by Comet Storm or stroke of genius. For this reason, I added Nivix Guildmage to reinforce this wincon and turned out to be very effective. Guildmage with those cards can also let u win without your commander. I win 4 of the 5 games this afternoon, which impressed me even more on how effective and powerful this deck could be, in one of these games I won with empty board by Epic experiment and Mind's Desire!
Since there are already win cons without Mizz already in the deck, I think I'll go without anymore cards that help that aspect for now. I agree with the counterspells, but I'm still figuring out the right amount because that would be the other half of the deck when Mizz is out for a turn or two. I'm hoping all the cheap removal works out. Right now even Capsize seems questionable. The two U is a bit awkward just because it can easily be two spells..I don't know how likely it is a window exists where abusing Capsize when I can is best because odds are I can do something cooler. But it does reinforce Reset, which I want to see have more utility outlets. There are some ideas I have now. Nothing is final, just what I came up with last night. I can't play anymore games til next Friday so it's up to you guys this weeks for results :]
Trinket Mage OUT -> Without candelabra, his options don't seem that great all of the time. I know and love this value train card, but the three mana is clunky. Maybe it's because I'm just trying to play too quickly. I'd like him to stay in.
Gitaxian Probe IN -> The counter abuse thing is awesome. I think getting this back in is a good idea. For the same reason, I'd love to give a slot to Mental Misstep, a super underrated card in competitive EDH.
Treasonous Ogre OUT -> The red mana is weird, but I can see situations he'd be helpful with or without Mizz.
Pyroblast Another red mana counterspell....the first was useful once and most of the interactive spells I play against are blue, and denying Narset a turn is always a plus.
Retraced Image -> BurntGerbil is the first person I've ever seen play this. Maybe the deck would need Timetwister and another wheel before it was really reliable, but I'm ordering a foil anyways.
I had a list of a few more, but these seemed the most important. Once I have more experience I'll write up a guide to help play the deck. I'm just waiting to play her against some new commanders before making any concrete announcements about it, I really don't mislead anyone. I didn't expect the page to be this successful.
URXSurf's Up, Mizz Magnus!XRU
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URXSurf's Up, Mizz Magnus!XRU
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URXSurf's Up, Mizz Magnus!XRU
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RUEDH Mizzix of the IzmagnusRU
URXSurf's Up, Mizz Magnus!XRU
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Extraplanar Lens exiles a land which makes it a lot worse to lose to removal, and doesn't align with Hurkyl's Recall. Bauble is too slow, I cut Cloud of Faeries from original list because I can't really net mana outside of high tide, which the deck doesn't need. Rebuild is not something I need. Hurkyl's Recall seems enough. Snap may be the next card I cut, but I'm gonna sit down and review everything now. I think I may have swapped out a card or two and not updated list.
URXSurf's Up, Mizz Magnus!XRU
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Jace, the Mind Sculptor -> Teferi, Temporal Archmage Not enough protection now. Maybe with changes he'll be back.
Mystic Remora -> Future Sight Got it out once and it was awakward to keep it around.
Seething Song -> Wayfarer's Bauble The red mana is sometimes useless or a ramp spell to get out Mizzix. Think I'd prefer to do it this way, especially since I think Tranmuste Artifact, Reshape, and
Trash for Treasure are all possible adds as well.
Epic Experiment -> Mox Diamond Need a few less X spells right now, and this seemed the best cut since it's pretty much a bad Mind's Desire. However, I really like it as a goldfishing card if pumping Mizzix's counters seems viable. As of now, I hit 4-5 and it doesn't really matter after that.
Comet Storm -> Chain of Vapor Storm will probably be the first back, but for right now it can't seem to do what it needs to when it needs to. Cutting Seething Song reinforced this. Casting Reiterate on Frantic Search is more fun and syngerizes with everything a little better. As of right now, search really seems to be a VIP
Snap -> Thirst for Knowledge Another card that never can do what it needs to when it needs to. COuld just be how little I've piloted it so far, but more digging seems better. I remember thinking how cool it'd be to abuse Flow of Ideas but it seems sticking with the old draw spells and getting them to U quicker is better for the deck. Flow may be out next.
Spelltwine -> Recoup The hardest commander oriented card to cut. I think exiling my own stuff should be only a win-con. Maybe if I was doing Enter the Infinite, but for right now another Mystic Retrieval seems better since it can work from the yard, is cast red mana that is sometimes useless, and can potentially be used twice. Mind's Desire and Time Warp are my usual targets with Mystic anyways.
If anyone has any thoughts, let me know. Really want this finely tuned by thanksgiving when I go to my meta at home.
URXSurf's Up, Mizz Magnus!XRU
URGWKynaios and Tiro's Multiplayer MenagerieWGRU
I like spelltwine too much right now but it's hard to decide if it's win more.
Seething song is not needed since you can infinite mana + storm with reality shift or turnabout which are insane here.
I've been liking Jace in my build but I may cut him soon as well. There are just too many toys to work with
Anyway I've started my own gameplay channel in which I play games (Magic also)
Twitch:
https://www.twitch.tv/dies_to_doom_blade
Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/user/UpsidedownHandshake
URXSurf's Up, Mizz Magnus!XRU
URGWKynaios and Tiro's Multiplayer MenagerieWGRU
The commander dependent cards are too cute while the untap cards are insane
I'm likely to cut Spell burst and power sink for pyroblast and red elemental blast after Tuesday.
Blue Sun/Stroke have been fairly decent so they may stay.
I'm also likely to remove most of the lands that are not islands
Sulfur falls, shivan reef, and maybe academy ruins are on the fence since I often don't play lands until I can hit a fetch to get a dual or a basic island.
I pretty much get the two duals (Hopefully oath will give us a third) and then exclusively islands
So that's nice, I guess I can trade them all in for a candelabra or something.
I also have noticed I can easily draw my entire deck on turn 3-4 with decent set up so lab man is likely to go in regardless on if I add enter the infinite.
I still like spelltwine as it helps up me from 2 experience to 5 pretty easy and getting my opponents tutor to get Mind's Desire is always nice.
And Tezzeret's gambit has always been good here but cutting the cute cards seems like the way to go here.
Looking forward to see where your list goes from here.
Anyway I've started my own gameplay channel in which I play games (Magic also)
Twitch:
https://www.twitch.tv/dies_to_doom_blade
Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/user/UpsidedownHandshake
Thanks for this thread. I have really enjoyed keeping up with the updates.
Dies_to_Doom_Blade, I have been checking your list also and have learned a lot from your posts.
1. Have you tested both lists in a real game? I see there's little protective methods like Lightning Greaves or lot's of counter spells. Then how hard is it for Mizzix to survive under common removal spells namely all the "SoP"s and black "Edict" s ? What's your plan? Hold Mizzix for enough mana and then burst into +4 experience counters in one shot? My meta plays two-headed giant EDH, so I wonder if Mizzix can last to that point.
2. How hard is the lists against popular decks like Prosch, Animar, Marath, etc. ?
3. How about Pull from the Deep and Foresee? I think these cards can be inserted into the lists?
4. I ran into this card Mana Severance when searching,does it help to Epic Experiment and Mind's Desire ?
My list is a little out of date - but I'll recommend taking a look at my list. Pay particular attention to alhammarret's archive. Once that sticks, I've never lost a game afterwards.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/multiplayer-commander-decklists/536154-melek-ghost-of-vintage-past
1. I've tested my lists in real games. I'll probably be adding Song and blast at some point. Spellburst is on its way out. I held off on casting her til I had counter mana after the first few games when it became clear resolving her can meet a lot. I don't like greaves because they play their spell in response to the equip. Letting your protection add the first experience counter instead of investing and playing it the turn before seems better.
2. It can compete with popular decks, however the most reputable leaders (animar, narset, and doomblade's Tasigur list minus a few $100+~ cards) aren't fully optimized and most of them are still learning some aspects of the deck, so I know it hasn't been as bad as it will be, but I don't consider my deck done so I'm fine with it. I feel liek ti'll be a while with how many cards there are to try befor eI think it's done.
3. I doubt any will see play. I'm getting closer and closer to my other blue decks as far as draw goes, because it seems (I blame the excitement of her ability for overlooking this) casting the standard cards like Thirst for Knowledge for 1 and U or U is much much faster and efficient.
4. Mana Severance honestly isn't worth it. I'd rather something that just provides cards. The land count is low enough where I'm not sweating something like hitting a few lands off Desire because so far 3/4 times it leads to the game ending, the 4th time just ended up with a Temporal Fissured board and me discarding down to 7 from 15+.
URXSurf's Up, Mizz Magnus!XRU
URGWKynaios and Tiro's Multiplayer MenagerieWGRU
Edit: the dream: Gitaxian Probe hold priority, Mental Misstep it, Wheel of Fortune, hold priority and cast Frantic Search...from there anything could happen
URXSurf's Up, Mizz Magnus!XRU
URGWKynaios and Tiro's Multiplayer MenagerieWGRU
Wow, I didn't see it could be used this way, interesting. Then the lady is more powerful then previously thinking. And thank you for all the replies to my questions. I am going to test your list today with my friends.
URXSurf's Up, Mizz Magnus!XRU
URGWKynaios and Tiro's Multiplayer MenagerieWGRU
As you can see, my land list is extremely island-heavy to capitalize on high tide.
90% of the time, retraced image is utilized as land ramp for U - other times, its useful before or after a draw-7 to stick an extra land. Occasionally, it'll even work for other cards - I think I stuck an Alhammerret's Archive with it not too long ago.
Often, my favorite plays with this deck are Opening hamds like:
Island, Retraced Image>Island#2, Mana Crypt, Windfall....
In other news, someone in my playgroup built this deck. Thanks a lot, ya arses.
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
btw,sometimes u can win without Mizzix, just 6~8 lands and with Turnabout/Reality Spasm and Reiterate in hand u can win with infinite mana by Comet Storm or stroke of genius. For this reason, I added Nivix Guildmage to reinforce this wincon and turned out to be very effective. Guildmage with those cards can also let u win without your commander. I win 4 of the 5 games this afternoon, which impressed me even more on how effective and powerful this deck could be, in one of these games I won with empty board by Epic experiment and Mind's Desire!
Since there are already win cons without Mizz already in the deck, I think I'll go without anymore cards that help that aspect for now. I agree with the counterspells, but I'm still figuring out the right amount because that would be the other half of the deck when Mizz is out for a turn or two. I'm hoping all the cheap removal works out. Right now even Capsize seems questionable. The two U is a bit awkward just because it can easily be two spells..I don't know how likely it is a window exists where abusing Capsize when I can is best because odds are I can do something cooler. But it does reinforce Reset, which I want to see have more utility outlets. There are some ideas I have now. Nothing is final, just what I came up with last night. I can't play anymore games til next Friday so it's up to you guys this weeks for results :]
Flow of Ideas -> Spelltwine The twine was really cool..Honestly Recurring Insight seems the best for draw since it's always seven off of a wheel. The rebound + Time Warp seems cool since Time Warp seems more like Explore now.
Trinket Mage OUT -> Without candelabra, his options don't seem that great all of the time. I know and love this value train card, but the three mana is clunky. Maybe it's because I'm just trying to play too quickly. I'd like him to stay in.
Gitaxian Probe IN -> The counter abuse thing is awesome. I think getting this back in is a good idea. For the same reason, I'd love to give a slot to Mental Misstep, a super underrated card in competitive EDH.
Treasonous Ogre OUT -> The red mana is weird, but I can see situations he'd be helpful with or without Mizz.
Pyroblast Another red mana counterspell....the first was useful once and most of the interactive spells I play against are blue, and denying Narset a turn is always a plus.
Swan Song IN -> Obv reasons
Retraced Image -> BurntGerbil is the first person I've ever seen play this. Maybe the deck would need Timetwister and another wheel before it was really reliable, but I'm ordering a foil anyways.
I had a list of a few more, but these seemed the most important. Once I have more experience I'll write up a guide to help play the deck. I'm just waiting to play her against some new commanders before making any concrete announcements about it, I really don't mislead anyone. I didn't expect the page to be this successful.
URXSurf's Up, Mizz Magnus!XRU
URGWKynaios and Tiro's Multiplayer MenagerieWGRU