ChangeWorldly Tutor for Eladamri's Call is simply a value switch. One extra mana to get the card to hand instead of to top of library is solid, and lets me tutor targets more efficiently if I need them that turn.
RemovalWurmcalling cut is a bit sad, since I never saw it in action. I did have it available often though, but the reason it never saw action was that I never wanted to cast it. I think that's telling enough of a standpoint.
RemovalCraterhoof Behemoth - This is going to be a tough explanation, since Behemoth is a game winning card. However, there are 3 factors that come into play:
The first is that I find Craterhoof extremely boring. It's anticlimactic, and frankly, I'm tired of seeing it as much as I have. This also leads me to wanting to set an example and tune down my group a bit for more casual games. I'm more of a spike at base mentality, and my decks do tend to dominate my meta and force more extreme reactions in deckbuilding, so I'm trying different ways to cut back. This deck, however, will remain one of my more tuned lists; Removing Craterhoof is not an attempt at powering down this deck, but rather a choice of message. We'll see how it goes, and Pathbreaker Ibex[/x] may rotate in if I feel this quantity is lacking, and if that's unable to fill the role, then craterhoof may simply need to return.
Second, it's true that Craterhoof closes out the games, but most of those games were already 'won.' While craterhoof has high visibility and high impact, I contend that it isn't actually doing as much as people think to win the games, as much as it's simply claiming credit for them.
Third, in the same line of thought, there are a number of games that are poised to win with craterhoof in hand, but then I lose my boardstate and craterhoof becomes a dead card.
Thus, I think that some quality of protection, like Warping wail or Rootborn Defenses would increase my win percentage better than craterhoof behemoth, by allowing my board state to reach the winning #2 position more often than there being a need to close out a winning position
It's a tough change, but testing should discover if I'm right.
RemovalSeer's Sundial - This is another tough one for me, since I love draw effects. Sadly, 4 to drop, then a requirement to gain life (=getting creature, with trostani out), then paying more mana, was a bit harsh. I've used it from time to time, but only as a tide over to get to the real draw. Hopefully, I'll have another draw replacement coming in soon (Endbringer, I hope).
RemovalZendikar's Roil - Another tough one. Having a fast army off of land drops is fantastic, and cards that combo with Perilous Forrays is nice. However, 2/2's were in an awkward spot where they don't really feel that much better than 1/1's and the 5 drop cost is kinda big. Retreat to Emeria and the Baloths should be able to hold over. I'll keep watch on this card and decision and see if it's a good call.
SwitchMartial Coup for Tragic Arrogance. Martial Coup is awkward in that it's still a 7 drop wrath, and that it's a token maker that kills off Trostani and other cards that would synergize with the soldiers. I also wanted a wrath that could hit artifacts and enchantments. Tragic Arrogance has rapidly been rising as one of my favorite wrath effects, and I expect that it will continue to do good work in this deck as well.
AdditionSundering Growth - I needed removal, and wanted more options to populate, especially at instant speed to deal with people responding to an initial populate and removing prime population options. Sundering Growth isn't anything mindblowing, but gets the job done.
AdditionRootborn Defenses - Akin to my discussion for Sundering Growth and mentioned in craterhoof, this serves as population insurance, as well as wrath protection.
AdditionBurgeoning - Testing the waters with this to get a quick start. Azusa can often be a dead card, so over-burdening ourselves with these effects isn't good, but Azusa is probably getting cut soon anyways (as soon as I find a budoka gardener). That said, Carpet of Flowers may be the correct overall addition instead. Or maybe something else entirely.
First you were talking in a previous post you were iffy on your Planeswalkers. IMO I think you could stand to keep Primal Hunter and Sun's Champion and cut the rest. Primal hunter synergizes with your deck and gives you much needed card draw. Sun's Champion is really just kind of a goodstuffs card so it she could stay or go honestly. Her 4 power wrath and her Emblem are fantastic for your deck. Regular Garruk is a fantastic card, but you want landfall triggers. Freyalise just looks like she doesn't do enough for your deck. Cards like Skyshroud Claim and Harrow give you 2 fantastic landfall triggers each and put lands in untapped. Harrow also is another way to kill your Riftstone Portal.
As for Azusa, you now have Exploration, Oracle, and now Burgeoning, I think you could cut her for something else, especially now that you have less card draw. That is why I think you need a good ol' fashioned Harmonize as, lets be real, it gets you what Sundial and Lost Dreams tries to give you but they require setup and extra mana. Burgeoning is also super dumb, you won't regret putting it in. I don't understand how Exploration is in the Top 50 over it.
I can't count how many times I've built a game winning board but sadly have to wait a round to attack due to summoning sickness or just need a key piece to stay around for 1 turn and then my board gets dismantled by the other players. Crossroads eliminates that for 1 mana and lets me just win on that turn. I've noticed most of the time players run targeted removal of artifacts/enchants/lands/PW rather than something global as they want to keep their stuff. Privileged Position would be fantasic for your deck to protect your key non-creature pieces and it goes in line with your addition of rootborn defenses in protecting your board for a win.
Ibex is so much fun to play. He's not just a wincon, he's a fantastic beater and psuedo anthem that you can play T6 (or earlier) and just apply pressure. Craterhoof is super strong in the late game, but Ibex is strong in the mid and late game.
And cutting ghost quarter just so you can add Mirrorpool haha.
I've played a more typical Trostani deck for a couple years, and I'm warming up to land based interactions now with the inclusion of mirrorpool. I already played Knight of the Reliquary to abuse dark depths and populate 20/20 flying creatures (I run mirror gallery).
I'd probably only be adding life from the loam and crucible of worlds, and am not convinced that only these would be sufficient to support the number of land interactions that are possible.
Have you considered Nacatl War-Pride as a source of tokens? Whenever I'm facing off against other decks that try to fill the battlefield, that card has been explosive, especially when populated.
Well, I see I haven't written up my experiences from last week. Get to that in a sec.
First off, I opened up with a Well of Lost Dreams in hand, which was awkward, seeing as I thought I cut it. Then I realized I cut Seer's Sundial instead - which wasn't what I had initially intended. Either way, the Well ended up being far more usefull than the sundial would have been... so I'm going to keep it for now, and keep an eye on it.
So.. on to the game!
===
Short version : I lost. Long version:
It's a 5 player game. I start with a good opening hand, and managed to ramp into a Tempt with Discovery turn 3. I get a Krosan Verge as my first land, since I don't expect anyone to be tempted in such a large game. I was wrong, 3 or the 4 opponents take the tempt. What? Strip Mine, Ghost Quarter, and Myriad Landscape join me. All the ramps, plus the kills if anyone tries anything funny (plus, there's an inkmoth busy infecting me). This leads to a turn 4 Avenger of Zendikar, with 9 tokens, and a fetch land and ghost quarter up (just in case). Sure enough, I get wrathed (no surprise). That was pretty much the biggest play of that game, as the rest of the game involves me trying to set Trostani on the board, getting Trostani removed from the board, and trying to land a board presence at all. A Wurmcoil Engine keeps me alive for a bit, (and draws me cards, thanks to an opponent casting Ezuri's Predation into my Well of Lost Dreams), but I get hit hard by every single player on the board (justifiably), although I do manage to survive a last turn of Dragon Onslaught thanks to quickly populating two Wurmcoil Engine lifelink tokens, to stay at 2 life. I still die before my next turn, but it was amusing to survive the carefully calculated Scourge of Valkas onslaught. That said, a few other players took the helm from me of "most dangerous person alive," and I was prepared to give a tirade about focusing down the old threat to the extent of blinding yourself to the new one (as Surrak assembles Scourge of Valkas, Dragon Broodmother and Utvara Hellkite on the board), but they handled him fairly well.
There were two more Tempt with Discovery's that game from two opponents, but both were late enough that I didn't care about giving my opponents more lands, so I accepted the tempt. Plus, I'm a land deck, my lands are worth more. The first got me Emeria, the Sky Ruin, which kept me in the game longer than I should have been, the second got me Glacial Chasm as dragon boy cast the tempt pre-combat, then looked over at me and went "oh." That was awesome. That said, it did relatively little, other than eat 2 Strip Mines and an Oldlamog cast blast. There are a few limitations as to how many times I can bring it back on an opposing turn, it turns out.
First you were talking in a previous post you were iffy on your Planeswalkers. IMO I think you could stand to keep Primal Hunter and Sun's Champion and cut the rest. Primal hunter synergizes with your deck and gives you much needed card draw. Sun's Champion is really just kind of a goodstuffs card so it she could stay or go honestly. Her 4 power wrath and her Emblem are fantastic for your deck. Regular Garruk is a fantastic card, but you want landfall triggers. Freyalise just looks like she doesn't do enough for your deck. Cards like Skyshroud Claim and Harrow give you 2 fantastic landfall triggers each and put lands in untapped. Harrow also is another way to kill your Riftstone Portal.
Garruk is solidly decent with the land untaps and the overrun, but yes, he's quite very much the weakest link.
For a while, Frey was one of my sole ench/art removals, so I'm going to wait a bit and see how the new cards settle in for it. I like her card draw too, though, to be honest, it doesn't go off. She's weakest #2.
The planeswalkers are mainly in because it would be funny with Doubling Season, and those two are the weakest for that.
As for Azusa, you now have Exploration, Oracle, and now Burgeoning, I think you could cut her for something else, especially now that you have less card draw. That is why I think you need a good ol' fashioned Harmonize as, lets be real, it gets you what Sundial and Lost Dreams tries to give you but they require setup and extra mana. Burgeoning is also super dumb, you won't regret putting it in. I don't understand how Exploration is in the Top 50 over it.
Burgeoning can't Crucible, is the main thing I can think of. Plus, price and availability mean that less people play with it. Explo also explodes more on your turn, and can abuse bounce lands better.
Anywho, Azusa is a planned cut already, I just haven't found my Budoka Gardener yet. I ordered a new (old, beat to hell) one as an add on to a recent order of OGW stuff, so this should happen soon.
I also can't find my harmonizes, which is sad, since I should have a bundle of future sight ones, and the Commander ones. I'll look again, but it's sometimes hard for me to accept the one shots vs the continuous effects. I should consider Shamanic Revelation as well. I know where those are.
I can't count how many times I've built a game winning board but sadly have to wait a round to attack due to summoning sickness or just need a key piece to stay around for 1 turn and then my board gets dismantled by the other players. Crossroads eliminates that for 1 mana and lets me just win on that turn. I've noticed most of the time players run targeted removal of artifacts/enchants/lands/PW rather than something global as they want to keep their stuff. Privileged Position would be fantasic for your deck to protect your key non-creature pieces and it goes in line with your addition of rootborn defenses in protecting your board for a win.
I think I would generally prefer Sterling Grove over position, but I see your point. I'll consider it.
Ibex is so much fun to play. He's not just a wincon, he's a fantastic beater and psuedo anthem that you can play T6 (or earlier) and just apply pressure. Craterhoof is super strong in the late game, but Ibex is strong in the mid and late game.
That's good to hear. I like hearing how some of these things work out like that. He'll definitely stay on the radar.
And cutting ghost quarter just so you can add Mirrorpool haha.
I think that one will be Horizon Canopy. I never end up using it, as I'd rather use the cycling lands for the Loam draw package, and not use up the land drop. If I feel I need it back (it was nice in one game to have multiple avenues of instant speed draw), I'll probably reconsider my cycling land allocation. Ghost Quarter is simply too versatile in this deck, sometimes activating it on myself for an extra landfall. I also like having multiple of these effects, since there's always a problem land that needs to die, whether its coffer/borg, kessig, maze of ith, etc.
I've played a more typical Trostani deck for a couple years, and I'm warming up to land based interactions now with the inclusion of mirrorpool. I already played Knight of the Reliquary to abuse dark depths and populate 20/20 flying creatures (I run mirror gallery).
I'd probably only be adding life from the loam and crucible of worlds, and am not convinced that only these would be sufficient to support the number of land interactions that are possible.
Have you considered Nacatl War-Pride as a source of tokens? Whenever I'm facing off against other decks that try to fill the battlefield, that card has been explosive, especially when populated.
When I first built the deck, I remember considering the Spawnwrithe and Giant Adephage, which I cut for being too 'cute,' but I don't remember if I considered the War Pride. I may have to reexamine him, as that is pretty crazy. I imagine the original dies fairly quickly though, which would make it harder to keep multiples on the battlefield.
Still, once you get the first token, you can build up until needed.
Nice report! That is crazy they agreed to the tempt! Love it.
You make good points all around on those card choices. Especially on the planeswalker+doubling season shenanigans. Even though I know it is far from optimal I still always keep a copy of Ajani Goldmane in my deck for that specific reason and quadruple my life total with 2 hulking Avatar tokens.
Since the new mulligan change, do you feel your deck needs to make any adjustments or just stay the same? I'm considering on upping my land count to 39-40 lands and cutting 1-2 ramp cards in place for either card draw or removal. I think the new mulligan rule helps midrangey-slower decks like ours compete vs the faster decks in the format. I've played about 8 games since the rule change and games definitely are at a slower pace.
I'm not too worried about the mulligan change, but that's because I always built my decks with a high land count to begin with. I rarely needed to even partial - I like being able t have a full grip of cards.
That said, in that game I did have to mull away the first hand. It had 2 lands, which I normally consider good, but both colorless and no followup.
The second hand I mulled into had the Tempt, a fetch, some second land (I forget), and a Sakura-Tribe Elder. I decided I could risk the possibility of drawing a land in three turns. Clearly, it worked. Perhaps too well. I also had draw in the Well of Lost Dreams. (Which confused me, since I had thought I'd removed it. Had to pull up my list on my phone to find out I swapped the other one instead, but that worked out for the better).
===
Glad you like the report. I think it's something I should try to do more often, so that I can review how I pilot the deck, and the events that stand out in a game. I don't think I need to go into play-by-play detail, but the highlights that capture attention are good. It can help me review mistakes, cards that did or didn't stand out or perform well, as well as helps others see the approach I take to piloting the deck.
Also helps me examine the times when I play more aggressively vs more passively, and what the results are.
I was going to cut garruk, but I couldn't find him in the deck, so it seems like I missed a change somewhere in there. I will need to investigate this weekend.
Tried to try out my new toys last night, but an opponent kept killing them before I got to play with them. Blade of Selves got exiled, then Herald of the Host got path to exiled. (which is sad, because I was about to end the game, seeing as I had just dropped Parallel Lives, Doubling Season, and Cathar's Crusade. 4 copies attacking each of the other two players, putting 32 +1/+1 counters on everything? Sounds nice.
I did manage to save the Mirrorpool, and it did some pretty crazy things; partially due to the aforementioned doubling lives coumbo. Getting 4 karmic guides does stuff. I didn't have enough creatures in the graveyard, but the +1/+1 counters went crazy.
I still lost, but only because in the crunch for time I hadn't noticed that Oona had a propaganda out, and I didn't pay attention to how I was tapping mana, in the interest of speed (that's my excuse, I'm sticking to it!).
Burgeoning did some happy work, but it did require keeping a lot of lands in hand on turn rotation, and then I was low on cards by my turn (though happy on lands!). I wonder if I should replace something for a reliquary tower. I'm usually not a fan, but...
Command Tower was actually my least favored of my 2 color lands - I can't fetch it out, so it's just a natural draw. Horizon Canopy is the card draw slot I use least, as I don't want to give up a land drop. That it doubles as a 2 color still interests me though, and it may in the future return, replacing a cycling land. I tend to not go too heavy on the Loam-draw plays anyways. Azusa, Lost but Seeking is a great card, but she either felt dead, or overshadowed. Budoka gives me a 'clonable' version that can still effectively give land drops, while also providing instant-speed land drops, and also being an appreciable token producer.
Dust Bowl - I like having multiple land hate outlets, and a few extra ways to kill my lands has been in demand in the last few games. Mirrorpool - more tokens to populate!
This card also promotes the landfall strategy - with the option to activate as an instant. Emeria Shepherd is really bonkers when you can control the timing when playing out lands.
6 player madness vs. Animar and a bunch of other people who died horribly.
Animar explodes and stats killing everyone, but I manage to Crop Rotation out a Glacial Chasm, so Animar's plan is to mill me out with Newlamog, and prevent me from attaining a board presence with Breaker of Armies, luckily my two creatures have tap abilities, so that doesn't dome into play much, and I tutor up a Grove of the Guardians with Knight of the Reliquary to be able to protect the next creatures I drop, including a Seedborn Muse. My survival plan rests on a Mistveil Plains I tutored up, in order to survive the mill, but a Scavenging Ooze on Animars side complicates things, forcing me to set off a wrath (rout).
Unfortunately I misplayed the turn earlier, meaning that I had already used the grove (expecting to get it back - I hadn't seen the ooze), without my second white creature to activate the mistveil (I'd have cast rout at instant speed in respose to the token making), I unfortunately mill out to newlamog, just shy of having a decent chance at making a miraculous comeback.
Bob, I gotta say I think I may need to copy almost your entire deck. I've been playing with my new variant as of late and have been having a lot of trouble with it. I've been having a streak where I make myself a threat, get neutered, then another player gets out of hand and I can't stop them. The only thing I'm really digging from my build that is different from yours is Archangel of Thune interactions I want to try to make a strong Trostani EDH, but I feel like I'm taking the deck in the wrong the direction. Trostani Landfall may be the best possible variant to experiment with.
I'll proxy your list and try it in my meta this weekend and see what I find works and doesn't work on my end then post a revised list over here.
Yeah, this deck is a lot of fun to play. Might be a bit annoying to play against though, judging by some reactions. =P I just like that it's got a great amount of resilience, and a good amount of threat-answering.
Archangel of Thune is an insanely good card, and if I had one, I would definitely add it as a Cathars' Crusade #2. I don't know if I'd add any of the combos, like Spike feeder, but the angel herself would easily make the list. One day I'll pick one up. I'd definitely add Spike Weaver with the archangel though.
There are a few other builds I've seen work:
The most obvious is to crank up the big dumb tokens. I've managed to actually get a few in here between Budoka, Phyrexian Processor, etc, but there are a lot more out there. The land theme kinda works with this though, as Grove of the Guardian is quite powerful when populated/recured. I've had opponents exile it at a pretty high priority. I was really proud of myself in that last game for thinking to use it's tap-creatures cost to save my creatures from Breaker of Armies... kinda sad that I got greedy, misplayed, and it amounted to naught though.
I'm pretty sure she's an easy Commander to go enchantress with, and get a lot of the 4/4 angel tokens to populate and have fun with off of Sigil of the Empty Throne and Angelic Accord.
There's an occasional player in my LGS who has an Angus Mackenzie pillowfort deck. While you lose out on the fog commander, I'm pretty sure that Trostani's lifegain can hold it in on its own, and it can be combined quite easily with the enchantress build (and usually is), once you're behind a wall, Luminarch Ascension kicks in pretty hard. It's kind of cost-ineffective to populate those, but if experience is any indicator, the ascension doesn't live terribly long after someone gets removal.
I actually just got a Cradle of Vitality in the mail today, which I think I stole from your list? either way, it seems like a fun card to toss in to open up the Commander damage option if needed, or a different avenue of aggression. I may slide it into a flex slot for tomorrow for fun, though I probably won't get a lot of games in tomorrow as I have a few things that will make me arrive late to the LGS.
Yeah, this deck is a lot of fun to play. Might be a bit annoying to play against though, judging by some reactions. =P I just like that it's got a great amount of resilience, and a good amount of threat-answering.
This sounds exactly what I'm looking to do with Trostani! Very excited to pilot this build.
I actually just got a Cradle of Vitality in the mail today, which I think I stole from your list? either way, it seems like a fun card to toss in to open up the Commander damage option if needed, or a different avenue of aggression. I may slide it into a flex slot for tomorrow for fun, though I probably won't get a lot of games in tomorrow as I have a few things that will make me arrive late to the LGS.
Actually the card I've been using in my flex slot has been Sunbond. It goes infinite when attached to Spike Feeder and theoretically (I haven't used it in a game yet) would give Trostani a venue to kill an opponent via commander damage. I once used Cradle during my Big Token build days but didn't really get anything out of of it because I didn't have sufficient ramp back then and too high of an average cmc. I'm sure it'll be more successful in your landfall variant with all the mana it ramps into.
Didn't get a game in last night with Trostani. As expected, my late arrival only got me into one long game, in which I played Roon, and was mostly shut down all game anyways. Removal Galore.
Since you have been dealing with what seems to be a control heavy meta recently perhaps some hatebears are in order. I have a Karametra, God of Harvests landfall deck that has evolved over time into an almost pure hatebear list. Cards I can recommend are Grand Abolisher, Privileged Position, Sylvan Safekeeper and perhaps Terra Eternal to protect your lands (I don't run Terra Eternal, because land destruction isn't that common in my meta).
Dragonlord Dromoka and Sigarda, Host of Herons also put in a lot of good work for me, but I hesitate to recommend them to you since being legendary limits their token applications.
People will likely consider me insane for these changes, but I actually rarely use Greater Good in this deck, and likewise Perilous forays. Avenger is a finisher, but is simply that, and made room for finishers with more synergy.
Nacatl looks interesting despite lack of synergy, due to population and token doubling, so we'll test there. It's also better in 1v1 than the Myriad triggers from the angel, while angel shines more in multi-player scenarios.
Cradle is a test for opening up more strategic options (commander damage).
Angel is something people keep discussing as great, but I remain unconvinced. I think she's good, but I don't think she's super-hype must run staple, so this is one of my tests for her to see if it's simply lack of experience talking.
====
2 Games last night.
Game 1: vs. Mizzix of the Izmagus superfriend combo, Roon, Phage the Untouchable
Phage starts with a leyline of the void. Mizzix with a Leyline of Anticipation. Mizzix drops an early Jace, I'm the only one with creatures, and I can't push through the leyline bounces and a dropped Tamiyo shutting down my major attackers. Mizzix follows up with an Inexorable Tide EOT, proliferates up Tamiyo, emblems, and then runs away with the game, with clockspinning on Jace for theft, a Blatant Thievery to take any potential attackers, and a Rewind for the soft lock. I try to go for the strip mine action to keep him off the mana for thievery early on, but a Trickbind stopped that short. The game drags on for quite a while anyways, as the Roon player thinks we can maybe make an opening to punch though, and I manage to hit Mizzix in the face for 19 in one attack, but thievery and rewind keep us down. (I managed to get some attackers down by locking up the rewind mana by baiting him into enough trickbinds, but that alone wasn't enough of an opening).
Game 2: vs. Erebos, Roon, Phage.
Loooong game. An early withered wretch from Phage manages to keep graveyards clean and stops a lot of shenanigans that I had in mind. Erebos gets a scary board with Dictate of Erebos, but roon keeps him in check with a well timed Turn to Frog + Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobyte to kill of his baord + god which was active. A later Oblivion Stone cleans up the rest of the mess. During this time I get a herald of the host online, and even manage to pouplate a token, but sadly Elesh Norn keeps me from drawing a grip off of Elemental Bond.
The next turn when I go to combat with both angels, I ate the O-stone, preventing me again from cards. Really obnoxious, but I was trying to force the ostone anyways so I could build an even better board state (I was holding Doubling Season + Blade of Selves, which I had been DYING to put on my angel with that elemental bond out. The ostone from phage (and copied Clever Impersonator ostone on Roon's side made me use up the angels to force the issue so I could build after). I drop an Emeria Shepherd instead, with the blade of selves on her, and drop a Diligent Farmhand, plains to recur the elemental bond, and pass. On the next turn I drop the Doubling season and attack with 5 Emeria Shepherds, which you would think would be super sexy with a diligent farmhand out. BUT NO. PHAGE REANIMATED THE WITHERED WRETCH, SO I HAVE NO GRAVEYARD. Darn it. Seriously guys. I jsut want to bring 5 things back with my sheperds. Is that so wrong?
Nicely enough, at least Emeria Sheperd had returned my Elemental bond, so I at least got 4 cards out of the deal, one of which was Cathar's Crusade. Next turn I go for the Crusade kill, but get Cyclonic Rifted. Darn it.
Ok, replay Doubling Season, Seedborn Muse, Cathar's Crusade, Elemental Bond, and stuff. Pass. Black sun's zenith for 6 from erebos (who's looking at death from Roon who has Akroma's Memorial + True Conviction, and is dutifully cannibalizing him to buff up his own life total). Response. Chord of Calling -> x = 2 -> Guildmage. Centaur. Populate. Populate. Populate. Many counters. Survive Black suns. Hah! Roon drops Roon (hasty due to Akroma's), and Erebos asks if he's dead. In the meekest voice, Roon says "I need you alive...". It was hilarious. Trust me. Phage Demonic Tutors. Darn it. Perilous Vault. WTF REALLY? More of me not having a graveyard. Or a board. Darn it.
Fine. Seance puts in some work and brings in 2 tokens of Karmic Guide for reanimation of Angel of Serenity (recursion mode, ahoy! + get rid of Archfiend), and stuff. Roon kills angel, my Baloths, and some other good stuff. Darn it!
Fine. Seance a Knight-Captain of Eos. Get 8 soldiers. Make more soldiers (land drop from burgeoning) + retreat. Kjeldoarn Outpost some soldiers. Phage casts Choice of Damnations. Darn it! I'm at 33 (erebos means no lifegain during the game, annoying). Choose 32 (would keep all my lands, wake, 1 other thing - lose all the tokens, several enchantments, if he chooses permanents). Chooses life. Go to 1. My turn. Drop Trostani (costs 10). Drop Cradle of Vitality. Drop Titania, Protector of Argoth. Respond to lifegain trigger. Sac land for 2 tokens. respond to lifegain triggers. Sac land, respond, etc. gain 4 life from a gargoyle token. Pay 1W to put 4 +1 counters on next in line. Gain 7. Pay 1W onto the 1st of many 5/3 tokens. Gain 10. Pay 1W. 13. Pay 1W. 16. Pay 1W. 19. etc. Gain over 100 life, dropping 23 counters onto a thing that can attack. Kill 2 players. Not enough for 3rd. ERG!
(( SIDE NOTE: In writing this, I realize that I forgot to account for the +1 off of wake in all that, I should have had a LOT more life and counters. ))
Roon recurs Cyclonic Rift. Rifts. For ****s sake. Darn it. Roon punches me for 4. Roon reveals a Chord for a witness/archaeomancer + roon flicker to rift lock me + vigilant commander damage for the eventual kill. Asks if I have any way out of it. I re-drop wake. Kill roon with Elspeth. Rings of Brighthearth + Dust Bowl + Strip Mine for 4 lands. Sun Titan to return Strip Mine (pointing out the land lock on him, +burgeoning makes it faster if he replays lands). Then point out that I can drop trostani, titania, cradle of vit, and overload a soldier token from Kjeldoran Outpost every turn and do the Cradle of Vitality chain to drop ungodly amounts of counters on him for a major attack each turn. He concedes the game. At last!
7 cards left in library, 30+ lands out, (3 in library, including glacial chasm). Most of the rest are exiled. At least 20-30 cards of mine are exiled from GY during the game.
===
THOUGHTS:
Herald of the Host pulled her weight today with Elemental Bond. She'll remain in the cut for now. I also like that it's one of the cards that people go "wait. What is that? Is that the myriad thing?!"
Angel of Serenity did stuff, and kinda had a chance to shine, but I messed up, so the game didn't end a turn earlier than it did. Oops. That said, she wasn't super impressive, but did her job, so I guess that's what I said about her. That said, it did point out to me that I need more removal in the deck, so she'll stay for now. I also got her super late (off the Gen Wave), and then had her bounced and replayed her, but had 30 lands and a wake, so didn't care about mana. We'll see how I feel when I get her in a not-end-game scanrio.
Mirrorpool. Dear god. My favorite land in this deck. It is so awesome. I still haven't used the spell mode yet, but I did have the thought as I was playing the x=33 gen wave of - I wonder how awesome this would have been if I had had Mirrorpool right now, and hadn't used it up early on for crazy amounts of card draw with Garruk's Packleader and Elemental Bond (copying the packleader).
Nacatl - by time showed up, I had the army, and no one else did. They were busy blowing up my armies. Stayed in hand. To test in future.
Cradle of Vitality. The chain token lifegain got me a super-scary army and 100+ life when I should have gotten about 20ish life, and a moderately scary army. I like it. We'll see how it works in the future in a not-end-game-absurd-amounts-of-mana-scenario.
Elemental Bond - I have considered cutting it because it's not a may, and it has come close to decking me a lot more than is comfortable. But then... it's the single best card draw in this deck. It is crazy ridiculous how good it is, and that last game proved it, with this thing being responsible for pretty much every single card drawn that game. It was insane, and theres a reason I recurred it as much as I could. (aside from it being the only thing I could recur, since everything else got exiled. repeatedly.).
===
I should add Gaea's Cradle to the deck. I should also add a sac outlet land, had some issues that would have helped with if I could tutor up a sac outlet (esp since I just took all of mine out of the deck).
Since you have been dealing with what seems to be a control heavy meta recently perhaps some hatebears are in order. I have a Karametra, God of Harvests landfall deck that has evolved over time into an almost pure hatebear list. Cards I can recommend are Grand Abolisher, Privileged Position, Sylvan Safekeeper and perhaps Terra Eternal to protect your lands (I don't run Terra Eternal, because land destruction isn't that common in my meta).
Dragonlord Dromoka and Sigarda, Host of Herons also put in a lot of good work for me, but I hesitate to recommend them to you since being legendary limits their token applications.
I thought I had replied to you already. I apologize. Thanks for the feedback and ideas!
Privileged position has been recommended before, but my main issue tends to be more of major wrath effects and cyclonic rifts, which position won't stop. If I were to add this route, I would probably go with a Sterling Grove first, to have a sun titan-able tutor stick.
Likewise with Dromoka and Abolisher, I've seen other people play them, and they have annoyed me in the past, but usually it only ends up being that - an annoyance. Maybe part of it is that since I don't see anything happen when I use them, (since my opponents cant DO anything), I end up not running them. Perhaps like the Angel of Serenity, I simply don't value them properly due to lack of exposure.
Perhaps it's a stylistic difference, but I think my standard response to that kind of removal level is to simply recover harder and faster.
I haven't been plagued by a mass-LD deck yet, but either I'll get wrecked, or my recursion would simply allow me to recover far faster than anyone else. LD tied with Grave Hate (eg: Armageddon + Bog) would probably simply end the game for me, since I would have 0 land left. At all.
Likewise, when we did have a LD deck in the meta, it was mostly Cataclysm, which Terra would save from, and Terra can simply be killed before casting the LD, making it a stall tactic at best. For single removals, like opposing Strip mines, I think my reaction is to mostly shrug it off. Even in that game where I lost since I couldn't keep a Chasm on the field, I recurred it 3 or 4 times. At that point, it was already 4v1, essentially, so while Terra would have helped that specific case, I can't help but think it would make for a weaker deck overall, and be a dead card more often than not.
Not everything needs to be tokenable, but it does help.
I guess it's probably a temperamental thing, where I'd rather be more proactive than defensive - instead, using the defensive elements that I have available in order to support a more proactive approach overall. Does that make sense?
I was going to wait for the set to be spoiled before doing the set review, but I just have to say that the new lands look fantastic. Of course, first impressions should always be taken with a grain of salt.
Drownyard Temple looks like a great land to sacrifice repeatedly to bring back for extra landfall triggers, though may not find a spot in this list since land spaces are tight, and extra ramp isn't crucially needed here. The interactions with dust bowl, Constant Mists, and Glacial Chasm recursion is notable though. If I add Mox Diamond or Worldbreaker to the deck, also synergy there.
WestVale Abbey may actually find its way in here. We can probably get enough token fodder via Retreat to Emeria effects, and having an extra flying blocker can be nice at time. Having a 9/7 flying, indestructible, lifelink flyer will be super-nice at times. The lack of population support is a mite bit saddening though. Even if it had made a legendary token, populating to dodge single target removal, or to 'untap' it would have been nice. I somewhat wonder why they didn't just use token templating for it, as transforming the keep doesn't make much thematic sense either, but oh well. At least, if it does die somehow, we can easily bring it back. That said, even with Retreat to Emeria and other soldier tokens, 5 sacrificial fodders may be a challenge at various points in the game. However, going back the other way, I have at times wanted a tutorable sac outlet (High Market is looking at a slot). 5 creatures is a lot, but it's also a nice land to pull up with Knight of the Reliquary in front of some wraths. I like having post-wrath presence. - I hate not reading things through.
In my upcoming games, I'll be taking the opportunity to note how often I would be able to potentially use the Temple's ability, as well as how often I would have 5 sacrificial tokens on the board for the Abbey, as well as how often a 9/7 indestructible lifelink flyer would prove useful - this way I'll have a better baseline to judge these cards.
I'll also need to pay attention to how often, and how quickly, I hit delirium. Thankfully we have a fair balance of card types, with Lands and Creatures being very easy to get into the grave, and with instants and sorceries, though not plentiful, at least existent for the next two. Artifacts and Enchantments are likely to eventually show up through collateral, and there are at least a few planeswalkers still in the deck, rounding out a good cast of card types.
As to spoilers, I'm actually a lot more interested in Traverse the Ulvenwald, to eithre grab the one waste I needed, or find an awesome land.
It's one of the reasons I want to see how Delerium activates on a consistent basis. I want to see how often it is a basic tutor, vs a sylvan scrying/Green Sun's Zenith. I typically prefer my land tutors to go to play (that way I don't have to waste a land drop), but the flexibility will be nice.
I'm also scared of the graveyard removal in response. If you only barely have delirium, nothing would be worse than having your tutor demoted via Scrabbling Claws or the white 3 drop flashy bouncy dude, who's name escapes me at this moment.
Even if you're stocked, an overlooked Tormod's Crypt on the field could seriously ruin your day. Having such a swing in the power of a card dependent on that makes me... uncomfortable.
1 Worldly Tutor
1x Wurm Calling
8 Craterhoof Behemoth
4 Seer's Sundial
5 Zendikar's Roil
2x Martial Coup
2 Eladamri's Call
2 Sundering Growth
3 Rootborn Defenses
3 Reclamation Sage
1 Burgeoning
5 Tragic Arrogance
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
And I have some recommendations to boot.
1 Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury
1 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Azusa, Lost but Seeking
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Skyshroud Claim
1 Harmonize
1 Pathbreaker Ibex
1 Harrow
1 Concordant Crossroads
1 Privileged Position
First you were talking in a previous post you were iffy on your Planeswalkers. IMO I think you could stand to keep Primal Hunter and Sun's Champion and cut the rest. Primal hunter synergizes with your deck and gives you much needed card draw. Sun's Champion is really just kind of a goodstuffs card so it she could stay or go honestly. Her 4 power wrath and her Emblem are fantastic for your deck. Regular Garruk is a fantastic card, but you want landfall triggers. Freyalise just looks like she doesn't do enough for your deck. Cards like Skyshroud Claim and Harrow give you 2 fantastic landfall triggers each and put lands in untapped. Harrow also is another way to kill your Riftstone Portal.
As for Azusa, you now have Exploration, Oracle, and now Burgeoning, I think you could cut her for something else, especially now that you have less card draw. That is why I think you need a good ol' fashioned Harmonize as, lets be real, it gets you what Sundial and Lost Dreams tries to give you but they require setup and extra mana. Burgeoning is also super dumb, you won't regret putting it in. I don't understand how Exploration is in the Top 50 over it.
I can't count how many times I've built a game winning board but sadly have to wait a round to attack due to summoning sickness or just need a key piece to stay around for 1 turn and then my board gets dismantled by the other players. Crossroads eliminates that for 1 mana and lets me just win on that turn. I've noticed most of the time players run targeted removal of artifacts/enchants/lands/PW rather than something global as they want to keep their stuff. Privileged Position would be fantasic for your deck to protect your key non-creature pieces and it goes in line with your addition of rootborn defenses in protecting your board for a win.
Ibex is so much fun to play. He's not just a wincon, he's a fantastic beater and psuedo anthem that you can play T6 (or earlier) and just apply pressure. Craterhoof is super strong in the late game, but Ibex is strong in the mid and late game.
And cutting ghost quarter just so you can add Mirrorpool haha.
I'd probably only be adding life from the loam and crucible of worlds, and am not convinced that only these would be sufficient to support the number of land interactions that are possible.
Have you considered Nacatl War-Pride as a source of tokens? Whenever I'm facing off against other decks that try to fill the battlefield, that card has been explosive, especially when populated.
Kemba | Linvala | Talrand | Geth | Krenko | Zada | Patron of the Orochi | Medomai | Athreos | Gisela | Trostani | Nin | Silumgar | Kaervek | Jarad | Xenagos | Sydri | Narset | Roon | Zurgo | Ghave | Marath | Uril | Tasigur | Animar | Riku | Riku | Sek'Kuar | Cromat
First off, I opened up with a Well of Lost Dreams in hand, which was awkward, seeing as I thought I cut it. Then I realized I cut Seer's Sundial instead - which wasn't what I had initially intended. Either way, the Well ended up being far more usefull than the sundial would have been... so I'm going to keep it for now, and keep an eye on it.
So.. on to the game!
===
Short version : I lost. Long version:
It's a 5 player game. I start with a good opening hand, and managed to ramp into a Tempt with Discovery turn 3. I get a Krosan Verge as my first land, since I don't expect anyone to be tempted in such a large game. I was wrong, 3 or the 4 opponents take the tempt. What? Strip Mine, Ghost Quarter, and Myriad Landscape join me. All the ramps, plus the kills if anyone tries anything funny (plus, there's an inkmoth busy infecting me). This leads to a turn 4 Avenger of Zendikar, with 9 tokens, and a fetch land and ghost quarter up (just in case). Sure enough, I get wrathed (no surprise). That was pretty much the biggest play of that game, as the rest of the game involves me trying to set Trostani on the board, getting Trostani removed from the board, and trying to land a board presence at all. A Wurmcoil Engine keeps me alive for a bit, (and draws me cards, thanks to an opponent casting Ezuri's Predation into my Well of Lost Dreams), but I get hit hard by every single player on the board (justifiably), although I do manage to survive a last turn of Dragon Onslaught thanks to quickly populating two Wurmcoil Engine lifelink tokens, to stay at 2 life. I still die before my next turn, but it was amusing to survive the carefully calculated Scourge of Valkas onslaught. That said, a few other players took the helm from me of "most dangerous person alive," and I was prepared to give a tirade about focusing down the old threat to the extent of blinding yourself to the new one (as Surrak assembles Scourge of Valkas, Dragon Broodmother and Utvara Hellkite on the board), but they handled him fairly well.
There were two more Tempt with Discovery's that game from two opponents, but both were late enough that I didn't care about giving my opponents more lands, so I accepted the tempt. Plus, I'm a land deck, my lands are worth more. The first got me Emeria, the Sky Ruin, which kept me in the game longer than I should have been, the second got me Glacial Chasm as dragon boy cast the tempt pre-combat, then looked over at me and went "oh." That was awesome. That said, it did relatively little, other than eat 2 Strip Mines and an Oldlamog cast blast. There are a few limitations as to how many times I can bring it back on an opposing turn, it turns out.
I did get to cast Sundering Growth, but had nothing to populate. I did need that Sword of Feast and Famine dead though, so still a win.
===
Garruk is solidly decent with the land untaps and the overrun, but yes, he's quite very much the weakest link.
For a while, Frey was one of my sole ench/art removals, so I'm going to wait a bit and see how the new cards settle in for it. I like her card draw too, though, to be honest, it doesn't go off. She's weakest #2.
The planeswalkers are mainly in because it would be funny with Doubling Season, and those two are the weakest for that.
Burgeoning can't Crucible, is the main thing I can think of. Plus, price and availability mean that less people play with it. Explo also explodes more on your turn, and can abuse bounce lands better.
Anywho, Azusa is a planned cut already, I just haven't found my Budoka Gardener yet. I ordered a new (old, beat to hell) one as an add on to a recent order of OGW stuff, so this should happen soon.
I also can't find my harmonizes, which is sad, since I should have a bundle of future sight ones, and the Commander ones. I'll look again, but it's sometimes hard for me to accept the one shots vs the continuous effects. I should consider Shamanic Revelation as well. I know where those are.
I think I would generally prefer Sterling Grove over position, but I see your point. I'll consider it.
That's good to hear. I like hearing how some of these things work out like that. He'll definitely stay on the radar.
I think that one will be Horizon Canopy. I never end up using it, as I'd rather use the cycling lands for the Loam draw package, and not use up the land drop. If I feel I need it back (it was nice in one game to have multiple avenues of instant speed draw), I'll probably reconsider my cycling land allocation. Ghost Quarter is simply too versatile in this deck, sometimes activating it on myself for an extra landfall. I also like having multiple of these effects, since there's always a problem land that needs to die, whether its coffer/borg, kessig, maze of ith, etc.
I run Tilling Treefolk as a 3rd recusion, plus there's always Sun Titan. If you don't have one, go ahead and grab a Petrified Field, since it protects whatever your best land is, plus can recur itself with Rings of Brighthearth.
When I first built the deck, I remember considering the Spawnwrithe and Giant Adephage, which I cut for being too 'cute,' but I don't remember if I considered the War Pride. I may have to reexamine him, as that is pretty crazy. I imagine the original dies fairly quickly though, which would make it harder to keep multiples on the battlefield.
Still, once you get the first token, you can build up until needed.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
You make good points all around on those card choices. Especially on the planeswalker+doubling season shenanigans. Even though I know it is far from optimal I still always keep a copy of Ajani Goldmane in my deck for that specific reason and quadruple my life total with 2 hulking Avatar tokens.
Since the new mulligan change, do you feel your deck needs to make any adjustments or just stay the same? I'm considering on upping my land count to 39-40 lands and cutting 1-2 ramp cards in place for either card draw or removal. I think the new mulligan rule helps midrangey-slower decks like ours compete vs the faster decks in the format. I've played about 8 games since the rule change and games definitely are at a slower pace.
That said, in that game I did have to mull away the first hand. It had 2 lands, which I normally consider good, but both colorless and no followup.
The second hand I mulled into had the Tempt, a fetch, some second land (I forget), and a Sakura-Tribe Elder. I decided I could risk the possibility of drawing a land in three turns. Clearly, it worked. Perhaps too well. I also had draw in the Well of Lost Dreams. (Which confused me, since I had thought I'd removed it. Had to pull up my list on my phone to find out I swapped the other one instead, but that worked out for the better).
===
Glad you like the report. I think it's something I should try to do more often, so that I can review how I pilot the deck, and the events that stand out in a game. I don't think I need to go into play-by-play detail, but the highlights that capture attention are good. It can help me review mistakes, cards that did or didn't stand out or perform well, as well as helps others see the approach I take to piloting the deck.
Also helps me examine the times when I play more aggressively vs more passively, and what the results are.
I'm glad you enjoyed it as well.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
5 Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury
6 Endbringer
I was going to cut garruk, but I couldn't find him in the deck, so it seems like I missed a change somewhere in there. I will need to investigate this weekend.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
I did manage to save the Mirrorpool, and it did some pretty crazy things; partially due to the aforementioned doubling lives coumbo. Getting 4 karmic guides does stuff. I didn't have enough creatures in the graveyard, but the +1/+1 counters went crazy.
I still lost, but only because in the crunch for time I hadn't noticed that Oona had a propaganda out, and I didn't pay attention to how I was tapping mana, in the interest of speed (that's my excuse, I'm sticking to it!).
Burgeoning did some happy work, but it did require keeping a lot of lands in hand on turn rotation, and then I was low on cards by my turn (though happy on lands!). I wonder if I should replace something for a reliquary tower. I'm usually not a fan, but...
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
0 Command Tower
0 Horizon Canopy
3 Azusa, Lost but Seeking
0 Dust Bowl
0 Mirrorpool
2 Budoka Gardener
I discussed each of these before, but here we go:
Command Tower was actually my least favored of my 2 color lands - I can't fetch it out, so it's just a natural draw.
Horizon Canopy is the card draw slot I use least, as I don't want to give up a land drop. That it doubles as a 2 color still interests me though, and it may in the future return, replacing a cycling land. I tend to not go too heavy on the Loam-draw plays anyways.
Azusa, Lost but Seeking is a great card, but she either felt dead, or overshadowed. Budoka gives me a 'clonable' version that can still effectively give land drops, while also providing instant-speed land drops, and also being an appreciable token producer.
Dust Bowl - I like having multiple land hate outlets, and a few extra ways to kill my lands has been in demand in the last few games.
Mirrorpool - more tokens to populate!
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
1) Temur Sabertooth
This card has been a reasonable threat for me. The interactions with Reveillark, Karmic Guide, Wood Elves, and Reclamation Sage are particularly notable.
2) Scryb Ranger
Not only does this untap Trostani, Selesnya's Voice, but it also provides an outlet for sustaining landfall triggers - Emeria Shepherd and Rampaging Baloths in particular.
3) Thawing Glaciers
This card also promotes the landfall strategy - with the option to activate as an instant. Emeria Shepherd is really bonkers when you can control the timing when playing out lands.
I like Thawing Glaciers a lot in quite a few decks, but in my time playing this one, I haven't really been wanting for it.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Animar explodes and stats killing everyone, but I manage to Crop Rotation out a Glacial Chasm, so Animar's plan is to mill me out with Newlamog, and prevent me from attaining a board presence with Breaker of Armies, luckily my two creatures have tap abilities, so that doesn't dome into play much, and I tutor up a Grove of the Guardians with Knight of the Reliquary to be able to protect the next creatures I drop, including a Seedborn Muse. My survival plan rests on a Mistveil Plains I tutored up, in order to survive the mill, but a Scavenging Ooze on Animars side complicates things, forcing me to set off a wrath (rout).
Unfortunately I misplayed the turn earlier, meaning that I had already used the grove (expecting to get it back - I hadn't seen the ooze), without my second white creature to activate the mistveil (I'd have cast rout at instant speed in respose to the token making), I unfortunately mill out to newlamog, just shy of having a decent chance at making a miraculous comeback.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
I'll proxy your list and try it in my meta this weekend and see what I find works and doesn't work on my end then post a revised list over here.
Thanks again and keep up the great deckbuilding!
Archangel of Thune is an insanely good card, and if I had one, I would definitely add it as a Cathars' Crusade #2. I don't know if I'd add any of the combos, like Spike feeder, but the angel herself would easily make the list. One day I'll pick one up. I'd definitely add Spike Weaver with the archangel though.
There are a few other builds I've seen work:
I actually just got a Cradle of Vitality in the mail today, which I think I stole from your list? either way, it seems like a fun card to toss in to open up the Commander damage option if needed, or a different avenue of aggression. I may slide it into a flex slot for tomorrow for fun, though I probably won't get a lot of games in tomorrow as I have a few things that will make me arrive late to the LGS.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
This sounds exactly what I'm looking to do with Trostani! Very excited to pilot this build.
Actually the card I've been using in my flex slot has been Sunbond. It goes infinite when attached to Spike Feeder and theoretically (I haven't used it in a game yet) would give Trostani a venue to kill an opponent via commander damage. I once used Cradle during my Big Token build days but didn't really get anything out of of it because I didn't have sufficient ramp back then and too high of an average cmc. I'm sure it'll be more successful in your landfall variant with all the mana it ramps into.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Dragonlord Dromoka and Sigarda, Host of Herons also put in a lot of good work for me, but I hesitate to recommend them to you since being legendary limits their token applications.
4 Greater Good
5 Perilous Forays
7 Avenger of Zendikar
6 Nacatl War-pride
4 Cradle of Vitality
7 Angel of Serenity
People will likely consider me insane for these changes, but I actually rarely use Greater Good in this deck, and likewise Perilous forays. Avenger is a finisher, but is simply that, and made room for finishers with more synergy.
Nacatl looks interesting despite lack of synergy, due to population and token doubling, so we'll test there. It's also better in 1v1 than the Myriad triggers from the angel, while angel shines more in multi-player scenarios.
Cradle is a test for opening up more strategic options (commander damage).
Angel is something people keep discussing as great, but I remain unconvinced. I think she's good, but I don't think she's super-hype must run staple, so this is one of my tests for her to see if it's simply lack of experience talking.
====
2 Games last night.
Game 1: vs. Mizzix of the Izmagus superfriend combo, Roon, Phage the Untouchable
Phage starts with a leyline of the void. Mizzix with a Leyline of Anticipation. Mizzix drops an early Jace, I'm the only one with creatures, and I can't push through the leyline bounces and a dropped Tamiyo shutting down my major attackers. Mizzix follows up with an Inexorable Tide EOT, proliferates up Tamiyo, emblems, and then runs away with the game, with clockspinning on Jace for theft, a Blatant Thievery to take any potential attackers, and a Rewind for the soft lock. I try to go for the strip mine action to keep him off the mana for thievery early on, but a Trickbind stopped that short. The game drags on for quite a while anyways, as the Roon player thinks we can maybe make an opening to punch though, and I manage to hit Mizzix in the face for 19 in one attack, but thievery and rewind keep us down. (I managed to get some attackers down by locking up the rewind mana by baiting him into enough trickbinds, but that alone wasn't enough of an opening).
Game 2: vs. Erebos, Roon, Phage.
Loooong game. An early withered wretch from Phage manages to keep graveyards clean and stops a lot of shenanigans that I had in mind. Erebos gets a scary board with Dictate of Erebos, but roon keeps him in check with a well timed Turn to Frog + Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobyte to kill of his baord + god which was active. A later Oblivion Stone cleans up the rest of the mess. During this time I get a herald of the host online, and even manage to pouplate a token, but sadly Elesh Norn keeps me from drawing a grip off of Elemental Bond.
The next turn when I go to combat with both angels, I ate the O-stone, preventing me again from cards. Really obnoxious, but I was trying to force the ostone anyways so I could build an even better board state (I was holding Doubling Season + Blade of Selves, which I had been DYING to put on my angel with that elemental bond out. The ostone from phage (and copied Clever Impersonator ostone on Roon's side made me use up the angels to force the issue so I could build after). I drop an Emeria Shepherd instead, with the blade of selves on her, and drop a Diligent Farmhand, plains to recur the elemental bond, and pass. On the next turn I drop the Doubling season and attack with 5 Emeria Shepherds, which you would think would be super sexy with a diligent farmhand out. BUT NO. PHAGE REANIMATED THE WITHERED WRETCH, SO I HAVE NO GRAVEYARD. Darn it. Seriously guys. I jsut want to bring 5 things back with my sheperds. Is that so wrong?
Nicely enough, at least Emeria Sheperd had returned my Elemental bond, so I at least got 4 cards out of the deal, one of which was Cathar's Crusade. Next turn I go for the Crusade kill, but get Cyclonic Rifted. Darn it.
Ok, replay Doubling Season, Seedborn Muse, Cathar's Crusade, Elemental Bond, and stuff. Pass. Black sun's zenith for 6 from erebos (who's looking at death from Roon who has Akroma's Memorial + True Conviction, and is dutifully cannibalizing him to buff up his own life total). Response. Chord of Calling -> x = 2 -> Guildmage. Centaur. Populate. Populate. Populate. Many counters. Survive Black suns. Hah! Roon drops Roon (hasty due to Akroma's), and Erebos asks if he's dead. In the meekest voice, Roon says "I need you alive...". It was hilarious. Trust me. Phage Demonic Tutors. Darn it. Perilous Vault. WTF REALLY? More of me not having a graveyard. Or a board. Darn it.
Fine. I have a bjillion some odd cards in hand. (Yay Elemental Bond, rest in peace within your perilous vault). Mirari's Wake. Genesis Wave for all of it (X=33). Get Perilous lives. Get Rampaging Baloths. Get Retreat to Emeria. Lands. Like 5 of them. Get many, many tokens. Pass. Forgot that Archfiend of Depravity had been released (and forgot my Angel of Serenity trigger to exile it). Darn it! Keep Baloth + sun titan.
Fine. Seance puts in some work and brings in 2 tokens of Karmic Guide for reanimation of Angel of Serenity (recursion mode, ahoy! + get rid of Archfiend), and stuff. Roon kills angel, my Baloths, and some other good stuff. Darn it!
Fine. Seance a Knight-Captain of Eos. Get 8 soldiers. Make more soldiers (land drop from burgeoning) + retreat. Kjeldoarn Outpost some soldiers. Phage casts Choice of Damnations. Darn it! I'm at 33 (erebos means no lifegain during the game, annoying). Choose 32 (would keep all my lands, wake, 1 other thing - lose all the tokens, several enchantments, if he chooses permanents). Chooses life. Go to 1. My turn. Drop Trostani (costs 10). Drop Cradle of Vitality. Drop Titania, Protector of Argoth. Respond to lifegain trigger. Sac land for 2 tokens. respond to lifegain triggers. Sac land, respond, etc. gain 4 life from a gargoyle token. Pay 1W to put 4 +1 counters on next in line. Gain 7. Pay 1W onto the 1st of many 5/3 tokens. Gain 10. Pay 1W. 13. Pay 1W. 16. Pay 1W. 19. etc. Gain over 100 life, dropping 23 counters onto a thing that can attack. Kill 2 players. Not enough for 3rd. ERG!
(( SIDE NOTE: In writing this, I realize that I forgot to account for the +1 off of wake in all that, I should have had a LOT more life and counters. ))
Roon recurs Cyclonic Rift. Rifts. For ****s sake. Darn it. Roon punches me for 4. Roon reveals a Chord for a witness/archaeomancer + roon flicker to rift lock me + vigilant commander damage for the eventual kill. Asks if I have any way out of it. I re-drop wake. Kill roon with Elspeth. Rings of Brighthearth + Dust Bowl + Strip Mine for 4 lands. Sun Titan to return Strip Mine (pointing out the land lock on him, +burgeoning makes it faster if he replays lands). Then point out that I can drop trostani, titania, cradle of vit, and overload a soldier token from Kjeldoran Outpost every turn and do the Cradle of Vitality chain to drop ungodly amounts of counters on him for a major attack each turn. He concedes the game. At last!
7 cards left in library, 30+ lands out, (3 in library, including glacial chasm). Most of the rest are exiled. At least 20-30 cards of mine are exiled from GY during the game.
===
THOUGHTS:
Herald of the Host pulled her weight today with Elemental Bond. She'll remain in the cut for now. I also like that it's one of the cards that people go "wait. What is that? Is that the myriad thing?!"
Angel of Serenity did stuff, and kinda had a chance to shine, but I messed up, so the game didn't end a turn earlier than it did. Oops. That said, she wasn't super impressive, but did her job, so I guess that's what I said about her. That said, it did point out to me that I need more removal in the deck, so she'll stay for now. I also got her super late (off the Gen Wave), and then had her bounced and replayed her, but had 30 lands and a wake, so didn't care about mana. We'll see how I feel when I get her in a not-end-game scanrio.
Mirrorpool. Dear god. My favorite land in this deck. It is so awesome. I still haven't used the spell mode yet, but I did have the thought as I was playing the x=33 gen wave of - I wonder how awesome this would have been if I had had Mirrorpool right now, and hadn't used it up early on for crazy amounts of card draw with Garruk's Packleader and Elemental Bond (copying the packleader).
Nacatl - by time showed up, I had the army, and no one else did. They were busy blowing up my armies. Stayed in hand. To test in future.
Cradle of Vitality. The chain token lifegain got me a super-scary army and 100+ life when I should have gotten about 20ish life, and a moderately scary army. I like it. We'll see how it works in the future in a not-end-game-absurd-amounts-of-mana-scenario.
Elemental Bond - I have considered cutting it because it's not a may, and it has come close to decking me a lot more than is comfortable. But then... it's the single best card draw in this deck. It is crazy ridiculous how good it is, and that last game proved it, with this thing being responsible for pretty much every single card drawn that game. It was insane, and theres a reason I recurred it as much as I could. (aside from it being the only thing I could recur, since everything else got exiled. repeatedly.).
===
I should add Gaea's Cradle to the deck. I should also add a sac outlet land, had some issues that would have helped with if I could tutor up a sac outlet (esp since I just took all of mine out of the deck).
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Privileged position has been recommended before, but my main issue tends to be more of major wrath effects and cyclonic rifts, which position won't stop. If I were to add this route, I would probably go with a Sterling Grove first, to have a sun titan-able tutor stick.
Likewise with Dromoka and Abolisher, I've seen other people play them, and they have annoyed me in the past, but usually it only ends up being that - an annoyance. Maybe part of it is that since I don't see anything happen when I use them, (since my opponents cant DO anything), I end up not running them. Perhaps like the Angel of Serenity, I simply don't value them properly due to lack of exposure.
Perhaps it's a stylistic difference, but I think my standard response to that kind of removal level is to simply recover harder and faster.
I haven't been plagued by a mass-LD deck yet, but either I'll get wrecked, or my recursion would simply allow me to recover far faster than anyone else. LD tied with Grave Hate (eg: Armageddon + Bog) would probably simply end the game for me, since I would have 0 land left. At all.
Likewise, when we did have a LD deck in the meta, it was mostly Cataclysm, which Terra would save from, and Terra can simply be killed before casting the LD, making it a stall tactic at best. For single removals, like opposing Strip mines, I think my reaction is to mostly shrug it off. Even in that game where I lost since I couldn't keep a Chasm on the field, I recurred it 3 or 4 times. At that point, it was already 4v1, essentially, so while Terra would have helped that specific case, I can't help but think it would make for a weaker deck overall, and be a dead card more often than not.
Not everything needs to be tokenable, but it does help.
I guess it's probably a temperamental thing, where I'd rather be more proactive than defensive - instead, using the defensive elements that I have available in order to support a more proactive approach overall. Does that make sense?
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Drownyard Temple looks like a great land to sacrifice repeatedly to bring back for extra landfall triggers, though may not find a spot in this list since land spaces are tight, and extra ramp isn't crucially needed here. The interactions with dust bowl, Constant Mists, and Glacial Chasm recursion is notable though. If I add Mox Diamond or Worldbreaker to the deck, also synergy there.
WestVale Abbey may actually find its way in here. We can probably get enough token fodder via Retreat to Emeria effects, and having an extra flying blocker can be nice at time. Having a 9/7 flying, indestructible, lifelink flyer will be super-nice at times. The lack of population support is a mite bit saddening though. Even if it had made a legendary token, populating to dodge single target removal, or to 'untap' it would have been nice. I somewhat wonder why they didn't just use token templating for it, as transforming the keep doesn't make much thematic sense either, but oh well. At least, if it does die somehow, we can easily bring it back. That said, even with Retreat to Emeria and other soldier tokens, 5 sacrificial fodders may be a challenge at various points in the game. However, going back the other way, I have at times wanted a tutorable sac outlet (High Market is looking at a slot). 5 creatures is a lot, but it's also a nice land to pull up with Knight of the Reliquary in front of some wraths. I like having post-wrath presence.- I hate not reading things through.In my upcoming games, I'll be taking the opportunity to note how often I would be able to potentially use the Temple's ability, as well as how often I would have 5 sacrificial tokens on the board for the Abbey, as well as how often a 9/7 indestructible lifelink flyer would prove useful - this way I'll have a better baseline to judge these cards.
I'll also need to pay attention to how often, and how quickly, I hit delirium. Thankfully we have a fair balance of card types, with Lands and Creatures being very easy to get into the grave, and with instants and sorceries, though not plentiful, at least existent for the next two. Artifacts and Enchantments are likely to eventually show up through collateral, and there are at least a few planeswalkers still in the deck, rounding out a good cast of card types.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
As to spoilers, I'm actually a lot more interested in Traverse the Ulvenwald, to eithre grab the one waste I needed, or find an awesome land.
Isn't WestVale Abbey black by color identity?
Kemba | Linvala | Talrand | Geth | Krenko | Zada | Patron of the Orochi | Medomai | Athreos | Gisela | Trostani | Nin | Silumgar | Kaervek | Jarad | Xenagos | Sydri | Narset | Roon | Zurgo | Ghave | Marath | Uril | Tasigur | Animar | Riku | Riku | Sek'Kuar | Cromat
Yes.
(darn it!)
(I was a bit trapped into mentally thinking of it like a sac land -> get token type of effect. )
It's one of the reasons I want to see how Delerium activates on a consistent basis. I want to see how often it is a basic tutor, vs a sylvan scrying/Green Sun's Zenith. I typically prefer my land tutors to go to play (that way I don't have to waste a land drop), but the flexibility will be nice.
I'm also scared of the graveyard removal in response. If you only barely have delirium, nothing would be worse than having your tutor demoted via Scrabbling Claws or the white 3 drop flashy bouncy dude, who's name escapes me at this moment.
Even if you're stocked, an overlooked Tormod's Crypt on the field could seriously ruin your day. Having such a swing in the power of a card dependent on that makes me... uncomfortable.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
| Omnath | Zada | Alesha | Scion |
| Mazirek | Animar |
Modern
UR Storm RU
UBRG Dredge GRBU
Standard
UR Thermo-Thing RU