This deck came about when my game store started a Commander League. I had always considered fog effects to be under-used in Commander, but even so I rarely ran them myself. When my game store started a points-based league, and one of the point options was to save another player, the incentives to build around fogs finally lined up. There were three packages I wanted to build around: Sunforger, Glacial Chasm, and Spore Frog. Initially I split this into two decks, Karador would run the sporefrog effects, while I placed both the Sunforger and lands packages into a Marath deck I was building (decklist). Eventually, the lands package would be split out of Marath in order to build a third deck, Trostani, built around landfall(decklist).
I built this deck to make use of Karador, Ghost Chieftain's and Proclamation of Rebirth's reanimation potential to re-use Spore Frog and other low cost self-sacrificing creatures to a large extent. There are many powerful one-drop creatures available to these colors, so obviously not all of them could be used. Even so, I am running a fairly high count of one-drop creatures. The Proc Drop guide can help a lot to find some good ones, but it is a bit behind the times, and not all inclusive.
There are a lot of extra options for extra reanimation power, extra re-use power, and extra card draw. Finding the balance of these will be key, which is made difficult by my natural assumption that I never have enough card draw.
Strengths
This deck is highly resilient to standard play. The low drops each have a lot of utility, and are easily recurred for multiple re-use. The strong sacrifice and reanimation synergy also allows us to power through a lot of early card advantage and cycle through the deck very quickly. While many decks' opening hands will involve a lot of dead cards early on and very set early game plays, we have a very low curve, allowing us to drop creatures early and sacrifice them for card advantage. Once Mentor of the Meek, Grim Haruspex, Smothering Abomination, etc, come online, we can sacrifice the creatures to Evolutionary Leap or Vampiric Rites for pure card advantage. As more of these effects stack up, each creature will be worth more and more cards, maintaining a full grip of cards. This then turns the reanimation into highly valuable card advantage.
The low cost, coupled with high cycling value, allows us to consistently make land drops, and also utilize most, if not all, of our mana every turn. This leads to high efficiency and consistency.
Weaknesses
What makes this deck strong, unfortunately makes it weak as well. One drop creatures are not very big, so while you're able to stall a board position and answer non-creature threats very easily you're never put in an overwhelmingly good position to attack. This often leads to a stale boardstate as you dig for a win condition to finally close out the game.
Another weakness is this deck's reliance on recursion in order to gain card value, and to maintain mana value. Quite simply, a spore frog has excellent mana-cost to effect value, but will never equal the pure value of a Terrastodon. If we are unable to recur creatures in the later game, then we will also have a lot of mana available that will be harder to make use of. Because of these facts, graveyard exiling is our greatest weakness. Rest in Peace will wreck us. Glissa decks that can recur Nihil Spellbomb effects will also wreck us. The first can be countered a bit by conservative play. While we like to have a stocked graveyard, keep some options in the hand to recover from a GY wipe. The deck has a fair amount of enchantment destruction to be able to remove Leyline of the Voids and Rest in Peaces. For recurring graveyard hate, such as Nihil Spellbomb + Salvaging Station, I suggest your own GY hate in response. Martyr of Bones works excellently, and there are a number of other black 1 drop creatures that handle graveyards well.
This deck also has a reliance on a small number of win conditions, making this deck weak to effects like Sadistic Sacrament.
This deck has a very combo feel to it, and more recent iterations opt for a combo finish. You want to start out with some early sacrificial fodder and some way to translate that into cards, whether it is the enchantments that sacrifice creatures for cards (Evolutionary Leap), or the dies triggers for cards (Deathreap Ritual). As you begin cycling through the deck, you'll eventually add other card draw pieces, which allows you to gain advantage as you sacrifice, rather than simply cycling. This is where you add in the recursion, like Oversold Cemetery, or cast Karador, Ghost Chieftain in order to gain further board presence. This drawing and cycling will allow you to get to one of the win conditions for the deck, whether it is Zulaport Enforcer to bleed each opponent as you dig through the deck, Dictate of Erebos to clear opposing board states for slow beats, or a Beastmaster's Ascension for an imposing board presence.
Win conditions are easily interchangeable. Craterhoof Behemoth, Avenger of Zendikar, Champion of Lambholt, Kessig Cagebreakers and many other typical finishers can work equally well in the deck, and allow you to go for less of a combo approach to the deck. Note that Craterhoof Behemoth has a lot of ground to make up, before it gets ridiculously good in this deck - starting with base 1/1's means it takes a fair amount more work to be effective.
If you wish to build against infinite combos, I recommend cutting Karmic Guide, Saffi, and Gift. Instead, add more win conditions. The current list favors less combo for win conditions like Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest, though it still runs several notable combos.
Most combos will require a free sac outlet, such as Viscera Seer or Carrion Feeder. Cost based sacrifice outlets (Evolutionary Leap can advance the combos, but only a limited amount per turn cycle (which is still fine). Not all of these combos are currently run, but each of these can be a powerful interaction in the deck should you choose to run the included cards.
Karmic Guide + Reveillark - Karmic Guide brings back Reveillark, sac both, Reveillark brings back Guide, which brings back Lark. Karmic Guide + Saffi Eriksdotter - Saffi sacs to protect Guide, sac Guide and Saffi's trigger returns it, Guide brings back Saffi. Reveillark + Saffi, Eriksdotter - Saffi onto Lark, Lark can bring back Saffi. Sun Titan + Saffi, Eriksdotter - Saffi onto Titan, Titan returns Saffi. Sun Titan + Gift of Immortality - Gift onto Sun Titan, sac Titan, Titan returns, Titan trigger onto Gift, which re-attaches onto Sun Titan. Aluren + Enduring Renewal - sac Sporefrog or other 1 drop creature. It returns to hand, and you recast it at instant speed for free.
Starting Hands
The most important pieces in any starting hand is the card draw. The deck has a low enough curve that you don't have to worry too much about lands, and enough low cost creatures to start the card drawing power. The important piece is always getting extra card draw off the deaths, so you typically want to aim to have two card draw effects in play to really gain advantage from the deck. This means that while mulliganing, always look for at least one card draw effect in hand, and then aim for about 2-3 lands and a one drop creature. Don't be afraid to get rid of hands with too many lands. Unlike some other decks to pilot, a hand that's flooded with mana isn't necessarily good here.
Playing Karador
Playing Karador is often a reactionary decision, and comes straight up to the question of value as to whether he is worth the cost of re-casting a creature from the graveyard. Often this boils down to the questions of:
How much would it cost to play him?
What effect do I need from my graveyard? (Or - how many cards do I get off casting and killing that thing?)
Is this effect worth that total cost?
There are, of course, exceptions. Quite simply, you may have reached a point of time in the game where you're ready to bring Spore Frog back every turn.
Ranger of Eos
Ranger of Eos is a powerful card in this deck. He allows us to use our one drops as a toolbox to answer any given threat, as well as tutor up our key Spore Frogs. Often times on the first casting of him you will want to get one of the two sacrifice effects (Viscera Seer, Carrion Feeder) as they will allow you to sacrifice him for replaying via Karador, as well as protecting your field from exile effects.
Card Choices
Creatures 32
1 Caustic Caterpillar - Enchantment and Artifact removal.
1 Carrion Feeder - Free sacrifice outlet
1 Deathrite Shaman - Early mana acceleration with or against fetchlands, and also partial graveyard hate.
1 Diligent farmhand - Ramp. He's like a Wayfarer's Bauble that can be tutored and reanimated.
1 Elvish Hexhunter - Removal
1 Essence Warden - Life gain.
1 Kami of False Hope - Fog effect
1 Serra Ascendant - Very powerful and aggressive 1 drop.
1 Soul Warden - Life gain.
1 Spore Frog - Fog effect
1 Tragic Poet - Recursion
1 Viscera Seer - Free sac outlet
1x Mikaeus, the Lunarch - Group pump option that can be easily tutored and recurred.
2 Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim - Removal, sac outlet, and efficient deterrent in the early game.
2 Fauna Shaman - Tutor
2 Qasali Pridemage - Enchantment and Artifact removal.
Pre-game thoughts.
Not enough targets for Auriok Salvagers, they're there as a safety, but maybe [c]Eternal Witness is enough.
I don't like the mana payments for Thoughtpicker Witch - might replace with Carrion Feeder.
Wake/Rally has other option on similar cost, like Immortal Servitude. I chose these 2 (out of... 5?) due to instant speed. If the exile on Rally is a problem, I will likely test Death Denied next - possibly with Hana Kami, though that may be too 'cute.'
I kind of want a Blood Artist in here, but don't know what to pull.
NEW STUFF INCOMING
It's great building a deck during spoiler season, look at all this stuff that needs to go in but isn't released yet, I just built this and already get to update it.
Coming in: Smothering Abomination Zulaport Cutthroat - instead of that blood artist that isn't there anyways. Vampiric Rites
Those are the only ones that stood out in GWB, there were another in black, but it was some sort of shade thing. Blister is probably the better, allowing for two sac/dies triggers in one card, as well as some mana ramp, but aside from the mana from the eldrazi token, I would rather Centaur Herald for that role, as the token it makes is more relevant for shenaniganry.
Jaddi won't replace a soul sister, but it may have roles in other decks or proc packages with a heavier land theme.
So, sadly my one game with this deck last night was a 3 hour excersize in "I can't handle frustration" of a 6 player game full of control decks. The next deck that pulled out the most creatures was 3. And all of them said "tap: Steal a creature" on them.
So. Thoughts.
I was happy that the deck did not fold over and die to a Rest in Peace, though I lost my Caustic Caterpillar (pulled by Ranger of Eos) to do it. I also didn't fold over to a Leyline of the Void, though luckily that got answered by someone else. I also didn't fold to 2 containment priests, to each got at least 1 guy - Dictate of Erebos was the chief helper there. The Bojuka bog on top of all that definitely hurt though, although I still wasn't completely out of it, it was definitely starting to cut some options short.
Shirei seriously pulled his weight, as did Ranger of Eos. The deck had too many visible moving parts (not much to do about that, though), that it pulled too much attention, while the ACTUAL combo player (Oloro) got to draw his entire deck without any disruption at all.
So. More enchantment removal, more artifact removal.
I'm thinking:
- Salvage Scout - not enough artifact targets, he's always a dead draw.
- Veteran Explorer - I don't like giving other people lands. Thought I'd try him as a 'combo' piece, since he gets lands untapped, but even so... Maybe I'll give him another shot... we'll see
- Phyrexian Arena - 1 card a turn seems slow for this deck. I was planning to hold pulling this card for some of the BFZ draw, but I need the slot sooner.
- land
+ Winding Canyons - While I don't want many colorless land slots, the ability to interact on opposing turns will be worthwhile, I believe. It will keep my creatures alive that much longer. It'll also combo with Seedborn Muse to be a Prophet of Kruphix.
- Tangle
+ Imp's Mischief
Tangle was a dead card in hand, partially due to the counterspells, partially due to lack of attacks, but mostly because I already have Spore Frog. What I wanted was so better responses, and I think Imp's Mischief will provide.
-Nim Deathmantle
+Abzan Ascendancy
The dead is a bit too starved for mana to be comboing a revival for 4 mana. Abzan will allow me to make a token swarm for either blockers or a win condition.
-Blade of the Bloodchief
+Blood Artist
Trading one win condition for another. I don't kill enough per turn to really make this guy worth it, but once Zulaport comes out, it'll be an easy swap.
Currently considering additions of False Prophet and Mind Slicer. Recurable wrath/hand disruption will be useful. Drainpipe Vermin, or Mindlash Sliver may be more thematic replacements for Mind Slicer. Problem is if someone manage to draw 60 cards, then mindlash just doesn't have the value power of mind slicer.
Because... that would be smart? He turns off what... 9 of my spells? which are my wraths, some card draw (which should be out anyways), 2 tutors, and my flashy instants? I like it.
I was just thinking that I needed to re-evaluate Saffi's inclusion. I didn't run her due to not getting much value on the 1 drops, and no return on the Shirei interaction, but then I just realized that I have Sun Titan/Karmic Guide and all that jazz.
What would you pull for those two?
Also, for Gaddock, I probably would bring in the False Prophet - maybe in place of Austere Command or Tragic Arrogance?
Saffi would definitely fit, but I like how your deck is a different take in these colors and would watch out to not build a generic WG Saffi loop deck. It's just too easy to do.
I do like Kagemaro, I had him on the sidelines, but he got cut pre-build as all my own guys are 1/1's. Having played this last game, I don't think that murdering my side is such a negative.
I prefer the prophet though due to the exile, I have enough sac outlets with carrion, viscera, leap, (and soon vampiric), that I should be able to control my side of the effects fairly well. Maybe another sac outlet would be nice.
I wonder if I should trade Beseech the queen for Eladamri's Call or Worldly Tutor. Beseech can get my card draw enchantments though...
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Saffi is quite solid alone, even if to only get double use from one of the sprogs, but I get what you're saying. Karmic/Lark is already in as well though, but again, each card is good on its own. Should I cut one of those to remove that loop? (probably Karmic in that case, it has less solo synergy).
Yeah, I guess the exile is much better, especially that you have a lot of sac outlets.
Beseech is a tough call. It does fetch anything, but the BBB is pretty hard. I would keep it a while, and really test it.
I'm not sure that cutting Karmic Guide is the right way to go. If your up against all that control, she will help a lot. Keep her and see if you like it. If you find that you are always fetching one of the three to loop, and you get bored, then maybe you could cut one. But she is to strong not to play.
I would go:
-Salvage Scout
-Pawn of Ulamog
-Land
+Prophet
+Teeg
+Saffi
This game was a rarity, and it really rubbed me the wrong way, so I may be overreacting a bit on it. I don't think I would ever tutor for the combo piece, but with as much recursion and draw as the deck has, it'll simply happen naturally if there is enough of it in there. Saffi combos with all 3 of the white recursion creatures, so is by far the most dangerous piece for it. I'll sleep on it and see. Maybe I'll just mark the card to replace, and every time I draw it ask myself "What if this was a Saffi" and keep her on the side to make a switch between games if needed.
That said, there isn't a lot that the loop would actually do either. Adding in Blood Artist and Abzan Ascendancy gives me 2 kill conditions, otherwise it's likely to just be a lot of card draw.
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I could indeed cut a land slot actually. The deck has a cheap enough curve to get the draw engines online quickly, and enough draw to reliably hit land slots. I never missed a land drop in my game last night, and seeing that it was a 3hr game, that's really impressive. I had 23-25 lands out at the end of the game, and Karametra only got 2, and veteran explorer only got 2 before both got exiled. Also I used a strip mine. So... 20-22 turns of game, I guess.
Keep in mind I do still want to slot in that enchantment and artifact hate, so the salvage scout slot is pretty much spoken for already. I like that guy so much, but this deck isn't for him.
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BBB can be tough for Beseech, but Beseech can also be played for 2BB, making it a pseudo Diabolic if need be. Also, last night an opponent dropped an urborg T2, so I was never bounded on black mana, which makes it harder to evaluate. In other news, I'm adding a Savannah and Scrubland to the deck soon, so there's that too.
Dark Prophecy is another BBB cost, but I think it's powerful enough to remain.
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I never drew Pawn of Ulamog in my one game, but I like him from other sac decks I've built - he doubles up the sac triggers, but that may be simply win-more. I also get the feeling that colorless mana isn't going to be highly needed.
I would cut Martyr of Sands for sure. Most of the cards in this deck aren't even white.
Martyr was added due to the ease of getting cards back in hand would allow me to control her. You are right that she was in fact rather lack luster.
Immortal Servitude is sitting on the side at the moment with Return to the Ranks. I opted for the two instant speed options, with Death Denied as a possible alternate. I think 2 slots for those effects is enough, and I'm liking the versatility of the instant speed ones right now, but this is being constantly evaluated. If I need something that doesn't bin my guys at EOT, then Immortal Servitude is the one to come in next.
Weathered Wayfarer was in the initial pack of cards pulled aside, but ended up not making it in. I usually tend to make it a goal to out-ramp my opponents, and there aren't really any key lands that I need to pull out. A case could be made for urborg to black-fix... I also didn't have any issue making lands drops in my playtests or my single game so far. Definitely something to keep in view though, especially since I'm going to cut the explorer in case I need more 1 slots dedicated to ramp/land.
Orzhov Charm is very powerful, and was in the initial build for a long time, but got cut when Isochron Scepter was cut for not having enough instants. That said, it remains a powerful utility spell, especially in this deck where it can get back a naturalize or fog at will, among others.
I tend to not be as huge a fan of the tap effects in multi-player, since I don't want to stop many attacks that are aimed at people not me. That, and I'm running the 2 fogs already. I'd probably run the rattlesnake blockers before the tap guy, unless there's some interaction I'm missing?
Brown Ouphe this is really good against combo/control decks. plus he come back easily.
Orzhov Charm as mentioned, could be quite good. Gives you spot removal, recursion and has synergy with the proc.
Aura Shards good control element, but in your deck, it becomes hell for opponents.
THE OUPHE! You sir have sold me.
And the Aura Shards fixes those nasty artifact/enchantment problems I was having. I can't believe how I so easily overlooked it. Probably my deep-seated hatred of playing against the card.
Dark Prophecy is difficult to cast with Urborg, and I really don't like the fact that the ability is not optional. I'm not too fond of Rings of Brighthearth, consider most of your activated abilities are underwhelming. Ob Nixilis Reignited doesn't fit with the theme, but it's such great utility. Does your playgroup not play Sol Ring? If so I respect it, if not you should run it.
So I wasted 4 hours of searching today. I couldn't find my Gaddock Teeg or any Aura Shards. Teeg I know I had set aside in a hard case, but he's still eluding me. The Aura shards I know I saw earlier last week. I'm really frustrated, as both of those have a rather non-zero value. This is also a problem, since I should have like, thousands of aura shards (or at least 5, 4 old, 1 from commander set). Either way, I know I have them. Super frustrating.
The idea was that with a pack of creatures in the graveyard (because, let's face it, we're cycling a lot of them), he would make a nice pack of spirits. I've been impressed with him in other builds (mainly Athreos and Teysa1.0), but you may be right, and it may open up another slot.
I'm not seeing the synergy, other than the lack of haste on Rally. Rally exiles on your end step though, so if you cast it EOT on an opponent's turn, they won't be sick. The only use for greaves would be to protect Karador, or to protect Shirei. I think there are better options for this deck.
I haven't had any issue activating Emeria yet in playtests, or in my solo game so far. 7 plains is a lot, but it's too powerful an effect to ignore, even in this deck. The ABUR/Shocks/Fetches help a lot with this. I'd run maze of ith before kor haven, and both before mystifying. Buried ruin is another favored card, but again, I don't have enough artifacts to justify it, especially if I'm not going to run salvage scout anymore. Landscape is good, I'll need to re-consider it. Temple is +1 mana, but all colorless. From my playtests, early on with the 1cost dudes, and evolutionary leap/survival/reclamation, I do want that colored mana. High Market was in initial playtests, but got cut, but may come back in. Grim Backwoods is an emergency card draw if I get ganged up on. It did sit in my hand a long time in my game, but it did come down at a clutch moment so I could sac my Karmic Guide for fuel when I was out. (graveyard exiled for the 4th time. That game hurt).
Dark Prophecy is difficult to cast with Urborg, and I really don't like the fact that the ability is not optional. I'm not too fond of Rings of Brighthearth, consider most of your activated abilities are underwhelming. Ob Nixilis Reignited doesn't fit with the theme, but it's such great utility. Does your playgroup not play Sol Ring? If so I respect it, if not you should run it.
Rings is a pet favorite card, and I like doubling up fetches. It's also super good with Evolutionary Leap and especially with Survival of the Fittest to turn them into card advantage. You may be right that the cost outweighs the benefit, but I think I'll keep it for a few more games. I'll keep a close eye on it in this deck.
Sol ring got cut during playtests. I was surprised as well, but I really wanted more colored mana. That said, there's almost always an outlet for colorless mana, so I may slot it back in.
I'm not afraid to lose life to Dark Prophecy, and I've only once decked myself in Commander. Even phyrexian Arena and variants cost you 1life/card. This is just... faster. If I get it in hand, I can use fetches to fix the mana base to be able to cast it. I do think that it is simply too powerful to ignore. Deathreap is a strong effect, and this is even crazier. The soul sisters should offset the lifeloss. If I ever do get to be too low on life, or too low on cards, then I'll just kill it. With my awesome caterpillar.
Have you thought about Dark Confidant as you converted CMC is so low?
I did actually, as I was passing a Dark Tutelage in my rare box. If I hadn't just cut Phyrexian Arena he'd have replaced that... except that I don't actually own a bob (maybe). I need to open this box of MM1 that I have lying around and find out if I got one. Although... I could probably borrow one from my brother... More card draw on creatures is always nice.
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Current planned changes (still finding the cards, so haven't updated OP yet}
That's a surprising amount of changes, but mostly it's just re-organizing some kill conditions/utility.
1 thing I could probably use is more creature kill. Dictate of Erebos did some solid work, but it's just one card. Problem is that gravepact is harder to cast, and butcher of malakir is too expensive. May just use the standard Fleshbag Marauder?
Also now considering Martyr's Bond (expensive) and Earthcraft. With all the little utility guys, Earthcraft has some potential for damage.
Got another few games in last night. Didn't get to try all the new cards, but a few turned up. Smothering Abomination is just as good as expected. I replaced Fecundity with it, which is a bit counter-intuitive due to the higher cost, but having the effect be entirely one-sided is a bit of a worry saver. Not only that, but having an effective flyer was surprisingly useful as well.
Ended up winning with Zulaport Enforcer, regular sacs (no combo), but there was a lot of table attacks that I just cleaned up; that said, I was about to go scary anyways. I didn't find my extra Beastmaster Ascension, so I had snuck in a Cathar's Crusade instead in the mean time, which would have cranked up rather quickly.
Winding Canyons played well and gave good respone value, even despite having my Seedborn Muse instantly removed.
I'll update the OP with the changes later tonight.
Pawn of Ulamog was replaced with another token producer - Abzan Ascendancy. The colorless mana wasn't doing as much, so trying out some better tokens. This may get reversed, as the self sacrificing nature of the tokens may prove better, as well as being on a creature himself makes him easier to recur.
Hallowed Spiritkeeper never really came up, and is a bit too dependent on the graveyard. He was included as a manner to get quick and easy mass flying tokens (as a wincon), but abzan ascendancy combines into this role, and frees up a cardslot. This opened a slot for Gaddock Teeg, which helps shut down a lot of tempo and control in EDH, while most of our effects skate by underneath.
Blade of the Bloodchief, Nim Deathmantle - this is me reorganizing my kill conditions as well. Blade is too slow and requires me to focus a creature to pump, while Zulaport Cutthroat also turns my dying creatures into damage, without the need for combat. Nim Deathmantle, while a powerful card, isn;t as cost-effective with my 1 drops. it's too much mana to keep open for what I want to do. Instead it is to be made into a Beatmaster's Ascension, but since I can't find an extra, it's temporarily a Cathar's Crusade.
Tangle - with the fog frogs, tangle loses a lot of value. Instead Imp's Mischief is a fantastic response that has saved my bacon in other decks time and again.
plains, forest - One is cut for a cardslot, the deck has a low enough curve I can afford it (but still wants lots of mana, so I don't want to drop too far into the 30's), the other is replaced for Winding Canyons - this opens up some off-turn shenaniganry.
Saffi Eriksdotter allows multiple re-use of certain sac effects at cheap cost, plus triggers sac/dies effects as well for more value.
Overall, I can afford to cut some of the one drops, the important part is having a toolbox package, and none of these guys are going to be tutored up at later points in the game.
I don't really have any key creatures for Safekeeper to really protect at this time, and Scute Mob will never be the go-to beater. Farmhand for the Elk is a question of haste, and I haven't been liking the combat idea that Cathars', Beastmaster's, or Craterhoof pushes. Or rather, I like the idea better of that as a win-con, but it really doesn't fit what the deck does. I think I'm going to focus this as one of my upper-tier decks for certain players in my group, and focus other decks that I've enjoyed the playstyle more towards the core group. That makes me happy.
Dark Prophecy for Fecundity is once again just swapping around my engine pieces trying to find what sits best.
Alluren is simply a beast of a card for this deck, even without the Enduring Renewal Combo, and likewise Renewal is very powerful (I'll still get creatures in GY off of the mill effect, and Karador can get them back, among others) alone, and together they do very powerful things.
Crypt Ghast is still a great card in the deck - I maintain that you don't need to double all of your lands for him to be good. Even getting an extra 2-3 mana per turn is highly worth it, and the number of spells cast really lets you punch in the extort values. That said, Blood Artist variants do that bit for free, so until I'm loaded on those, Crypt Ghast is taking a backseat for a bit. As always, an evolving deck.
Gift of Immortality is another way to get a Shirei effect, especially with all the self-sacrificing durdles and sac outlets the deck runs. It can prove to add a large amount of CA or protection at low cost, that I feel the risk of 2-1 is justified.
Undying evil is a one-shot Saffi effect, and given how much value the deck pull on sacrifice, this could be very powerful to re-use a fog, or just draw many cards, or ramp more. That said, the +1 counter messes with Shirei a bit (whoopedie-do), but then it's also a nice instant speed save effect. Deathrite Shaman made it in the last update for some grave hate, and I'd like a second piece for redundancy, as well as something that can hit artifacts against Glissa decks.Martyr of Bones seems the more likely choice due again to (lack of) haste reasons (Carrion Beetles, etc) Imp's Mischief is just a great save/response/anti-control card. Orzhov Charm is an instant speed reanimation effect for our 1 drops, and likely include in front of Undying Evil, as it does similar, but with more utility. Right now Wake the Dead and Rally the Ancestors are doing that job in a bigger way, but more direct to play instants (and cheaper) always bear watching. Earthcraft is broken levels of powerful, even without any evident infinite combos in the deck, though Enduring Alluren could do it (although that already infinite). Alluren + Mirari's Wake could get there too, possibly. Traproot Kami I simply wanted to keep on my radar in case flying/early aggression ever proved a problem. This innocuous critter can stall attacks very, very well. Of course, the added life-gain wardens/martyr are ever on the radar, as is Children of Korlis, in similar roles. Martyr's Bond - Dictate of Erebos does good work (as always) so a second grave pact seems like a good thing to have. Martyr's Bond, though expensive, provides a stronger effect than just grave pact (which clocks in at triple B as well).
Not a big change here, just a better answer to a mass enchantress player, rather than the pick and choose method of the hex hunter. This decision is likely to flip flop often based on meta differences, and is likely to be a personal choice between the two.
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As always, looking for potential CUTS for the deck more than anything.
Current watch list for cuts: Karmic Guide - most of my stuff is actually lower than it, that it doesn't give any discount options.
A valid question, Necrotic and Harmonic slivers are typically quite good in Karador lists, but I think it might be a bit mana intensive for this one. It may warrant testing. What would you remove for it?
The Elvish Hexhunter/Nova Cleric slot makes the most sense, but I'd like to keep an extra 1 drop option in order to have it be easily tutorable.
This is a big update, and incorporates many major changes - a move away from the combo aspect, and into token beats is by far the biggest upset. While the combo aspect fits the theme of the deck better, it simply wasn't fun to play. Though Cathars' Crusade was in before, and cut (since the +1 counters were simply landing on things that were going to get sacced anyways), I recently had an amusing game with Abzan Ascendancy, and the recent printing of Mazirek really lets this theme fit into the deck far more easily than before, so we're giving it a new green-light. We're not removing all of the combo, but we are going to limit it severely for this meantime, and then perhaps re-add some elements in over time to find that right balance.
RemovalGaddock Teeg - A big addition when it came in, and a big cut now, fueled by two reasons. (1) I made the change based off of one negative experience from the first game ever played - an overreaction if I ever saw one - and he ends up adding a very negative experience to play overall. While a good card in any Karador sac deck, I don't think he's a good card for the playgroup. The addition of incoming higher cost enchantments simply also make him more of a hassle to handle on my side as well. (2) is a practical side of reasoning: I figured I'd have found my copy of him by now, and I haven't, so I should kinda cut him, since I can't prove that I actually own one.
RemovalAura Shards - Purely that I still haven't found my copies. This is an excellent card, that deserves to be in the deck. It really needs another reprinting.
RemovalKarmic Guide - This card really served no purpose outside of combo. Pretty much my entire deck is cheaper than guide, so it's not a discount rez engine in here. Since I'm cutting back on combo, this is one of the first cuts.
RemovalReveillark - Second piece of the combo. While the ability works with much more of the deck, rezzing two Spore Frogs isn't the best value overall. Mainly the combo though.
RemovalSaffi Eriksdotter - Combo cut, will probably be one of the first re-adds. Saffi is excellent in multi-reuse of creatures, allowing us to easily fog multiple turns, among simply granting excellent value.
RemovalChord of Calling - the instant speed and convoke seem very good, but it's rare that I actually want to spend 3 extra mana on a creature, when I could just simply drop that many more cards from my hand, and refill my hand, all at the same time.
RemovalRings of Brighthearth - This one is always painful for me, since this is a pet card of mine. It may need to return. The ability to combo with any value enchantments, like Evolutionary Leap to generate card advantage is great, plus the ability to ramp on fetch lands is never to be underestimated. Cutting it for now, since the 2 cost on each activation is a bit more mana intensive than I'm liking, but perhaps the versatility makes that acceptable.
RemovalShirei, Shizo's Caretaker - With Mazirek and Cathars' Crusade coming in, Shirei loops will be a bit trickier to pull off, plus, Meren is pulling some of his recursion duty, and he's been met with a fair share of groans around the table. As always, his pure power and value in this style of deck will keep him a constant consideration.
SwitchPutrefy for Orzhov Charm - Deck has enough aritfact hate that the extra modes of orzhov charm, especially with our 1 drop package, make it a far better choice.
AdditionMikaeus, the Lunarch - initally on the side as a value '1' drop, we'll need to test and see if he can give the value army boost he promises. Testing.
AdditionKarlov of the Ghost Council - With the soul sisters and zulaport cutthroat, Karlov should gain counters quickly enough to be a threat, and then can also serve as side removal. Testing.
AdditionAyli, Eternal Pilgrim - Ayli adds an extra sac outlet to the deck. It's rare enough to be at high life that her last ability shouldn't be counted on being active, but it it does, it quickly becomes a wind condition on its own.
AdditionCathars' Crusade - making a return, to pair with Mazirek. I think having a secondary effect is what was needed to make this path of win condition viable again.
AdditionAluren - though removing most combo pieces, Aluren is super strong alone for this deck (unlike Karmic Guide, which is generally stronger, but weaker in this deck). Combos with Enduring Renewal for perma fog (perma FROG!).
Awkward situation - I'm replacing the cards in my decklist, and it seems that Cathars' Crusade is already there, despite not seeing it when switching out cards last night. I will need to double check now that I don't suddenly have 2 copies in the deck, as that would be cheating.
Probably return Saffi or Rings into the deck if there are two.
I built this deck to make use of Karador, Ghost Chieftain's and Proclamation of Rebirth's reanimation potential to re-use Spore Frog and other low cost self-sacrificing creatures to a large extent. There are many powerful one-drop creatures available to these colors, so obviously not all of them could be used. Even so, I am running a fairly high count of one-drop creatures. The Proc Drop guide can help a lot to find some good ones, but it is a bit behind the times, and not all inclusive.
There are a lot of extra options for extra reanimation power, extra re-use power, and extra card draw. Finding the balance of these will be key, which is made difficult by my natural assumption that I never have enough card draw.
Strengths
The low cost, coupled with high cycling value, allows us to consistently make land drops, and also utilize most, if not all, of our mana every turn. This leads to high efficiency and consistency.
Weaknesses
Another weakness is this deck's reliance on recursion in order to gain card value, and to maintain mana value. Quite simply, a spore frog has excellent mana-cost to effect value, but will never equal the pure value of a Terrastodon. If we are unable to recur creatures in the later game, then we will also have a lot of mana available that will be harder to make use of. Because of these facts, graveyard exiling is our greatest weakness. Rest in Peace will wreck us. Glissa decks that can recur Nihil Spellbomb effects will also wreck us. The first can be countered a bit by conservative play. While we like to have a stocked graveyard, keep some options in the hand to recover from a GY wipe. The deck has a fair amount of enchantment destruction to be able to remove Leyline of the Voids and Rest in Peaces. For recurring graveyard hate, such as Nihil Spellbomb + Salvaging Station, I suggest your own GY hate in response. Martyr of Bones works excellently, and there are a number of other black 1 drop creatures that handle graveyards well.
This deck also has a reliance on a small number of win conditions, making this deck weak to effects like Sadistic Sacrament.
Creatures 32
1 Caustic Caterpillar
1 Carrion Feeder
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Diligent farmhand
1 Elvish Hexhunter
1 Essence Warden
1 Kami of False Hope
1 Serra Ascendant
1 Soul Warden
1 Spore Frog
1 Tragic Poet
1 Viscera Seer
1x Mikaeus, the Lunarch
2 Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim
2 Fauna Shaman
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Zulaport Cutthroat
3 Burnished Hart
3 Bygone Bishop
3 Eternal Witness
3 Grim haruspex
3 Mentor of the Meek
3 Tireless Tracker
4 False Prophet
4 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
4 Ranger of Eos
4 Smothering Abomination
5 Karametra, God of harvests
5 Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest
5 Seedborn Muse
6 Sun Titan
1 Skullclamp
Enchantment 18
1 Phyrexian Reclamation
1 Vampiric Rites
2 Evolutionary Leap
2 Oversold Cemetery
2 Sterling Grove
2 Survival of the Fittest
3 Abzan Ascendancy
3 Beastmaster Ascention
3 Gift of Immortality
3 Ulvenwald Mysteries
4 Aluren
4 Deathreap Ritual
4 Enduring Renewal
4 Field of Souls
5 Cathars' Crusade
5 Dictate of Erebos
5 Mirari's Wake
6 Martyr's Bond
Instant 5
1 Swords to Plowshares
2 Imp's Mischief
2 Orzhov Charm
2x Rally the Ancestors
2x Wake the Dead
Sorcery 4
2 Demonic Tutor
3 Proclamation of Rebirth
6 Austere Command
6 Beseech the Queen
Lands 39
6 Plains
5 Forest
5 Swamp
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou
1 Canopy Vista
1 Godless Shrine
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Temple Garden
1 Murmuring Bosk
1 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Command Tower
1 Emeria, the Sky Ruin
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Cabal Coffers
1 Vesuva
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Grim Backwoods
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Strip Mine
1 Winding Canyons
Strategy Overview
Win conditions are easily interchangeable. Craterhoof Behemoth, Avenger of Zendikar, Champion of Lambholt, Kessig Cagebreakers and many other typical finishers can work equally well in the deck, and allow you to go for less of a combo approach to the deck. Note that Craterhoof Behemoth has a lot of ground to make up, before it gets ridiculously good in this deck - starting with base 1/1's means it takes a fair amount more work to be effective.
Infinite Combo
With Zulaport Enforcer (or similar variants), it is possible to have infinite dies triggers between certain combinations of Saffi Eriksdotter, Sun Titan, Reveillark, Karmic Guide, and Gift of Immortality.
If you wish to build against infinite combos, I recommend cutting Karmic Guide, Saffi, and Gift. Instead, add more win conditions. The current list favors less combo for win conditions like Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest, though it still runs several notable combos.
Most combos will require a free sac outlet, such as Viscera Seer or Carrion Feeder. Cost based sacrifice outlets (Evolutionary Leap can advance the combos, but only a limited amount per turn cycle (which is still fine). Not all of these combos are currently run, but each of these can be a powerful interaction in the deck should you choose to run the included cards.
Karmic Guide + Reveillark - Karmic Guide brings back Reveillark, sac both, Reveillark brings back Guide, which brings back Lark.
Karmic Guide + Saffi Eriksdotter - Saffi sacs to protect Guide, sac Guide and Saffi's trigger returns it, Guide brings back Saffi.
Reveillark + Saffi, Eriksdotter - Saffi onto Lark, Lark can bring back Saffi.
Sun Titan + Saffi, Eriksdotter - Saffi onto Titan, Titan returns Saffi.
Sun Titan + Gift of Immortality - Gift onto Sun Titan, sac Titan, Titan returns, Titan trigger onto Gift, which re-attaches onto Sun Titan.
Aluren + Enduring Renewal - sac Sporefrog or other 1 drop creature. It returns to hand, and you recast it at instant speed for free.
Starting Hands
The most important pieces in any starting hand is the card draw. The deck has a low enough curve that you don't have to worry too much about lands, and enough low cost creatures to start the card drawing power. The important piece is always getting extra card draw off the deaths, so you typically want to aim to have two card draw effects in play to really gain advantage from the deck. This means that while mulliganing, always look for at least one card draw effect in hand, and then aim for about 2-3 lands and a one drop creature. Don't be afraid to get rid of hands with too many lands. Unlike some other decks to pilot, a hand that's flooded with mana isn't necessarily good here.
Playing Karador
Playing Karador is often a reactionary decision, and comes straight up to the question of value as to whether he is worth the cost of re-casting a creature from the graveyard. Often this boils down to the questions of:
Ranger of Eos
Ranger of Eos is a powerful card in this deck. He allows us to use our one drops as a toolbox to answer any given threat, as well as tutor up our key Spore Frogs. Often times on the first casting of him you will want to get one of the two sacrifice effects (Viscera Seer, Carrion Feeder) as they will allow you to sacrifice him for replaying via Karador, as well as protecting your field from exile effects.
Card Choices
Artifact 1
Enchantment 18
Instant 5
Sorcery 4
Lands 39
Changelog
Linking to posts that contain changes. Explanation of changes within the post, although discussion may range both before and after.
Oct. 02 2015
Jan. 20 2016
4/14/2016
IN: Tireless Tracker
Explanation
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Pre-game thoughts.
Not enough targets for Auriok Salvagers, they're there as a safety, but maybe [c]Eternal Witness is enough.
I don't like the mana payments for Thoughtpicker Witch - might replace with Carrion Feeder.
Wake/Rally has other option on similar cost, like Immortal Servitude. I chose these 2 (out of... 5?) due to instant speed. If the exile on Rally is a problem, I will likely test Death Denied next - possibly with Hana Kami, though that may be too 'cute.'
I kind of want a Blood Artist in here, but don't know what to pull.
NEW STUFF INCOMING
It's great building a deck during spoiler season, look at all this stuff that needs to go in but isn't released yet, I just built this and already get to update it.
Coming in:
Smothering Abomination
Zulaport Cutthroat - instead of that blood artist that isn't there anyways.
Vampiric Rites
Hey, look at that card draw!
NEW PROC DROPS (that probably won't make it)
1 Jaddi Offshoot
1 Cliffside lookout
Those are the only ones that stood out in GWB, there were another in black, but it was some sort of shade thing. Blister is probably the better, allowing for two sac/dies triggers in one card, as well as some mana ramp, but aside from the mana from the eldrazi token, I would rather Centaur Herald for that role, as the token it makes is more relevant for shenaniganry.
Jaddi won't replace a soul sister, but it may have roles in other decks or proc packages with a heavier land theme.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
So. Thoughts.
I was happy that the deck did not fold over and die to a Rest in Peace, though I lost my Caustic Caterpillar (pulled by Ranger of Eos) to do it. I also didn't fold over to a Leyline of the Void, though luckily that got answered by someone else. I also didn't fold to 2 containment priests, to each got at least 1 guy - Dictate of Erebos was the chief helper there. The Bojuka bog on top of all that definitely hurt though, although I still wasn't completely out of it, it was definitely starting to cut some options short.
Shirei seriously pulled his weight, as did Ranger of Eos. The deck had too many visible moving parts (not much to do about that, though), that it pulled too much attention, while the ACTUAL combo player (Oloro) got to draw his entire deck without any disruption at all.
So. More enchantment removal, more artifact removal.
I'm thinking:
- Salvage Scout - not enough artifact targets, he's always a dead draw.
- Veteran Explorer - I don't like giving other people lands. Thought I'd try him as a 'combo' piece, since he gets lands untapped, but even so... Maybe I'll give him another shot... we'll see
- Phyrexian Arena - 1 card a turn seems slow for this deck. I was planning to hold pulling this card for some of the BFZ draw, but I need the slot sooner.
+ Elvish Hexhunter - tutorable
+ Elvish Scrapper/Scavenger Folk
+ Qasali Pridemage
- land
+ Winding Canyons - While I don't want many colorless land slots, the ability to interact on opposing turns will be worthwhile, I believe. It will keep my creatures alive that much longer. It'll also combo with Seedborn Muse to be a Prophet of Kruphix.
- Tangle
+ Imp's Mischief
Tangle was a dead card in hand, partially due to the counterspells, partially due to lack of attacks, but mostly because I already have Spore Frog. What I wanted was so better responses, and I think Imp's Mischief will provide.
-Nim Deathmantle
+Abzan Ascendancy
The dead is a bit too starved for mana to be comboing a revival for 4 mana. Abzan will allow me to make a token swarm for either blockers or a win condition.
-Blade of the Bloodchief
+Blood Artist
Trading one win condition for another. I don't kill enough per turn to really make this guy worth it, but once Zulaport comes out, it'll be an easy swap.
-Thoughtpicker witch
+Carrion Feeder
The mana to sac was indeed an issue.
-Hallowed Burial
+Tragic Arrogance
Replacing wrath options.
Some of the soul sisters/martyr of sands can probably be replaced.
BFZ current planned changes:
-Fecundity
-Soul Sister
-Blood Artist
+Smothering Abomination
+Zulaport Cutthroat
+Vampiric Rites
ALSO
Currently considering additions of False Prophet and Mind Slicer. Recurable wrath/hand disruption will be useful.
Drainpipe Vermin, or Mindlash Sliver may be more thematic replacements for Mind Slicer. Problem is if someone manage to draw 60 cards, then mindlash just doesn't have the value power of mind slicer.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
I was just thinking that I needed to re-evaluate Saffi's inclusion. I didn't run her due to not getting much value on the 1 drops, and no return on the Shirei interaction, but then I just realized that I have Sun Titan/Karmic Guide and all that jazz.
What would you pull for those two?
Also, for Gaddock, I probably would bring in the False Prophet - maybe in place of Austere Command or Tragic Arrogance?
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
False Prophet is perfect. Also look into Kagemaro, First to Suffer. He is just brutal. I would still keep Austere Command, it's just to good a catch all card.
I prefer the prophet though due to the exile, I have enough sac outlets with carrion, viscera, leap, (and soon vampiric), that I should be able to control my side of the effects fairly well. Maybe another sac outlet would be nice.
I wonder if I should trade Beseech the queen for Eladamri's Call or Worldly Tutor. Beseech can get my card draw enchantments though...
----
Saffi is quite solid alone, even if to only get double use from one of the sprogs, but I get what you're saying. Karmic/Lark is already in as well though, but again, each card is good on its own. Should I cut one of those to remove that loop? (probably Karmic in that case, it has less solo synergy).
-karmic guide
-pawn of ulamog
+Prophet
+teeg
???
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Beseech is a tough call. It does fetch anything, but the BBB is pretty hard. I would keep it a while, and really test it.
I'm not sure that cutting Karmic Guide is the right way to go. If your up against all that control, she will help a lot. Keep her and see if you like it. If you find that you are always fetching one of the three to loop, and you get bored, then maybe you could cut one. But she is to strong not to play.
I would go:
-Salvage Scout
-Pawn of Ulamog
-Land
+Prophet
+Teeg
+Saffi
?
That said, there isn't a lot that the loop would actually do either. Adding in Blood Artist and Abzan Ascendancy gives me 2 kill conditions, otherwise it's likely to just be a lot of card draw.
---
I could indeed cut a land slot actually. The deck has a cheap enough curve to get the draw engines online quickly, and enough draw to reliably hit land slots. I never missed a land drop in my game last night, and seeing that it was a 3hr game, that's really impressive. I had 23-25 lands out at the end of the game, and Karametra only got 2, and veteran explorer only got 2 before both got exiled. Also I used a strip mine. So... 20-22 turns of game, I guess.
Keep in mind I do still want to slot in that enchantment and artifact hate, so the salvage scout slot is pretty much spoken for already. I like that guy so much, but this deck isn't for him.
---
BBB can be tough for Beseech, but Beseech can also be played for 2BB, making it a pseudo Diabolic if need be. Also, last night an opponent dropped an urborg T2, so I was never bounded on black mana, which makes it harder to evaluate. In other news, I'm adding a Savannah and Scrubland to the deck soon, so there's that too.
Dark Prophecy is another BBB cost, but I think it's powerful enough to remain.
---
I never drew Pawn of Ulamog in my one game, but I like him from other sac decks I've built - he doubles up the sac triggers, but that may be simply win-more. I also get the feeling that colorless mana isn't going to be highly needed.
---
Hah, I just ran into Illumination as an anti-Rest in Peace tech. It's so bad it's hillarious. Although, I could run Presence of the Master.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
I would cut Martyr of Sands for sure. Most of the cards in this deck aren't even white.
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
Brown Ouphe this is really good against combo/control decks. plus he come back easily.
Orzhov Charm as mentioned, could be quite good. Gives you spot removal, recursion and has synergy with the proc.
Aura Shards good control element, but in your deck, it becomes hell for opponents.
Martyr was added due to the ease of getting cards back in hand would allow me to control her. You are right that she was in fact rather lack luster.
Immortal Servitude is sitting on the side at the moment with Return to the Ranks. I opted for the two instant speed options, with Death Denied as a possible alternate. I think 2 slots for those effects is enough, and I'm liking the versatility of the instant speed ones right now, but this is being constantly evaluated. If I need something that doesn't bin my guys at EOT, then Immortal Servitude is the one to come in next.
Weathered Wayfarer was in the initial pack of cards pulled aside, but ended up not making it in. I usually tend to make it a goal to out-ramp my opponents, and there aren't really any key lands that I need to pull out. A case could be made for urborg to black-fix... I also didn't have any issue making lands drops in my playtests or my single game so far. Definitely something to keep in view though, especially since I'm going to cut the explorer in case I need more 1 slots dedicated to ramp/land.
Orzhov Charm is very powerful, and was in the initial build for a long time, but got cut when Isochron Scepter was cut for not having enough instants. That said, it remains a powerful utility spell, especially in this deck where it can get back a naturalize or fog at will, among others.
I tend to not be as huge a fan of the tap effects in multi-player, since I don't want to stop many attacks that are aimed at people not me. That, and I'm running the 2 fogs already. I'd probably run the rattlesnake blockers before the tap guy, unless there's some interaction I'm missing?
THE OUPHE! You sir have sold me.
And the Aura Shards fixes those nasty artifact/enchantment problems I was having. I can't believe how I so easily overlooked it. Probably my deep-seated hatred of playing against the card.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Hallowed Spiritkeeper seems quite mediocre.
Lightning Greaves is really good and has synergy with Rally the Ancestors. Emeria, the Sky Ruin is too hard to turn on with three colors, and you have enough return effects where another utility land seems better here. I believe Mystfying Maze, Kor Haven, Buried Ruin, Myriad Landscape or Temple of the False God would all be better here. High Market is very good and fits on theme with all of the sacrifice engines, it's much better than Grim Backwoods.
Dark Prophecy is difficult to cast with Urborg, and I really don't like the fact that the ability is not optional. I'm not too fond of Rings of Brighthearth, consider most of your activated abilities are underwhelming. Ob Nixilis Reignited doesn't fit with the theme, but it's such great utility. Does your playgroup not play Sol Ring? If so I respect it, if not you should run it.
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
The idea was that with a pack of creatures in the graveyard (because, let's face it, we're cycling a lot of them), he would make a nice pack of spirits. I've been impressed with him in other builds (mainly Athreos and Teysa1.0), but you may be right, and it may open up another slot.
I'm not seeing the synergy, other than the lack of haste on Rally. Rally exiles on your end step though, so if you cast it EOT on an opponent's turn, they won't be sick. The only use for greaves would be to protect Karador, or to protect Shirei. I think there are better options for this deck.
I haven't had any issue activating Emeria yet in playtests, or in my solo game so far. 7 plains is a lot, but it's too powerful an effect to ignore, even in this deck. The ABUR/Shocks/Fetches help a lot with this. I'd run maze of ith before kor haven, and both before mystifying. Buried ruin is another favored card, but again, I don't have enough artifacts to justify it, especially if I'm not going to run salvage scout anymore. Landscape is good, I'll need to re-consider it. Temple is +1 mana, but all colorless. From my playtests, early on with the 1cost dudes, and evolutionary leap/survival/reclamation, I do want that colored mana. High Market was in initial playtests, but got cut, but may come back in. Grim Backwoods is an emergency card draw if I get ganged up on. It did sit in my hand a long time in my game, but it did come down at a clutch moment so I could sac my Karmic Guide for fuel when I was out. (graveyard exiled for the 4th time. That game hurt).
Rings is a pet favorite card, and I like doubling up fetches. It's also super good with Evolutionary Leap and especially with Survival of the Fittest to turn them into card advantage. You may be right that the cost outweighs the benefit, but I think I'll keep it for a few more games. I'll keep a close eye on it in this deck.
Sol ring got cut during playtests. I was surprised as well, but I really wanted more colored mana. That said, there's almost always an outlet for colorless mana, so I may slot it back in.
I'm not afraid to lose life to Dark Prophecy, and I've only once decked myself in Commander. Even phyrexian Arena and variants cost you 1life/card. This is just... faster. If I get it in hand, I can use fetches to fix the mana base to be able to cast it. I do think that it is simply too powerful to ignore. Deathreap is a strong effect, and this is even crazier. The soul sisters should offset the lifeloss. If I ever do get to be too low on life, or too low on cards, then I'll just kill it. With my awesome caterpillar.
I did actually, as I was passing a Dark Tutelage in my rare box. If I hadn't just cut Phyrexian Arena he'd have replaced that... except that I don't actually own a bob (maybe). I need to open this box of MM1 that I have lying around and find out if I got one. Although... I could probably borrow one from my brother... More card draw on creatures is always nice.
====
Current planned changes (still finding the cards, so haven't updated OP yet}
1 Salvage Scout
1 Veteran Explorer
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Tangle
1 Nim Deathmantle
1 Blade of the Bloodchief
1 Thoughtpicker witch
1 Hallowed Burial
1 Martyr of Sands
1 Pawn of Ulamog
1 Hallowed Spiritkeeper
1 plains
1 forest
1 fecudity
1 Soul's Attendant
1 Elvish Hexhunter - **
1 Scavenger Folk - *
1 Qasali Pridemage - *
1 Imp's Mischief - *
1 Abzan Ascendancy - *
1 Zulaport Cutthroat
1 Carrion Feeder
1 False Prophet - *
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Saffi Eriksdotter - *
1 Aura shards
1 Brown Ouphe
1 Winding Canyons - *
1 Smothering Abomination
1 Vampiric Rites
That's a surprising amount of changes, but mostly it's just re-organizing some kill conditions/utility.
1 thing I could probably use is more creature kill. Dictate of Erebos did some solid work, but it's just one card. Problem is that gravepact is harder to cast, and butcher of malakir is too expensive. May just use the standard Fleshbag Marauder?
Also now considering Martyr's Bond (expensive) and Earthcraft. With all the little utility guys, Earthcraft has some potential for damage.
I also wonder if I'm being too cutesy with the win conditions, and wondering if I should just go kill them using a Beastmaster's Ascension or Craterhoof Behemoth.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Ended up winning with Zulaport Enforcer, regular sacs (no combo), but there was a lot of table attacks that I just cleaned up; that said, I was about to go scary anyways. I didn't find my extra Beastmaster Ascension, so I had snuck in a Cathar's Crusade instead in the mean time, which would have cranked up rather quickly.
Winding Canyons played well and gave good respone value, even despite having my Seedborn Muse instantly removed.
I'll update the OP with the changes later tonight.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Also, the deck may wants some gravehate, meaning that Deathrite Shaman or Martyr of Bones may make it in. (or both!)
Also, OP Updated.
Actual replacements were:
1 Salvage Scout
1 Soul's Attendant
1 Thoughtpicker witch
1 Veteran Explorer
1 Martyr of Sands
3 Pawn of Ulamog
3 Hallowed Spiritkeeper
1 Blade of the Bloodchief
2 Nim Deathmantle
3 Phyrexian Arena
3 fecudity
2 Tangle
5 Hallowed Burial
0 plains
0 forest
1 Elvish Hexhunter
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Carrion Feeder
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Saffi Eriksdotter - *
2 Qasali Pridemage - *
2 Zulaport Cutthroat
4 False Prophet - *
4 Smothering Abomination
2 Imp's Mischief - *
1 Vampiric Rites
3 Abzan Ascendancy - *
3 Aura shards
5 Cathar's Crusade
0 Winding Canyons - *
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Scute Mob
1 Diligent farmhand
5 Cathars' Crusade
3 Dark Prophecy
4 Crypt Ghast
3 Gift of Immortality
4 Enduring Renewal
2 Dawntreader Elk
4 Alluren
3 Fecundity
2 Blood Artist
Overall, I can afford to cut some of the one drops, the important part is having a toolbox package, and none of these guys are going to be tutored up at later points in the game.
I don't really have any key creatures for Safekeeper to really protect at this time, and Scute Mob will never be the go-to beater. Farmhand for the Elk is a question of haste, and I haven't been liking the combat idea that Cathars', Beastmaster's, or Craterhoof pushes. Or rather, I like the idea better of that as a win-con, but it really doesn't fit what the deck does. I think I'm going to focus this as one of my upper-tier decks for certain players in my group, and focus other decks that I've enjoyed the playstyle more towards the core group. That makes me happy.
Dark Prophecy for Fecundity is once again just swapping around my engine pieces trying to find what sits best.
Alluren is simply a beast of a card for this deck, even without the Enduring Renewal Combo, and likewise Renewal is very powerful (I'll still get creatures in GY off of the mill effect, and Karador can get them back, among others) alone, and together they do very powerful things.
Crypt Ghast is still a great card in the deck - I maintain that you don't need to double all of your lands for him to be good. Even getting an extra 2-3 mana per turn is highly worth it, and the number of spells cast really lets you punch in the extort values. That said, Blood Artist variants do that bit for free, so until I'm loaded on those, Crypt Ghast is taking a backseat for a bit. As always, an evolving deck.
Gift of Immortality is another way to get a Shirei effect, especially with all the self-sacrificing durdles and sac outlets the deck runs. It can prove to add a large amount of CA or protection at low cost, that I feel the risk of 2-1 is justified.
Looking for space
1 Martyr of Bones
2 Orzhov Charm
2 Imp's Mischief
2 Earthcraft
6 Martyr's Bond
1 Traproot Kami
Undying evil is a one-shot Saffi effect, and given how much value the deck pull on sacrifice, this could be very powerful to re-use a fog, or just draw many cards, or ramp more. That said, the +1 counter messes with Shirei a bit (whoopedie-do), but then it's also a nice instant speed save effect.
Deathrite Shaman made it in the last update for some grave hate, and I'd like a second piece for redundancy, as well as something that can hit artifacts against Glissa decks.Martyr of Bones seems the more likely choice due again to (lack of) haste reasons (Carrion Beetles, etc)
Imp's Mischief is just a great save/response/anti-control card.
Orzhov Charm is an instant speed reanimation effect for our 1 drops, and likely include in front of Undying Evil, as it does similar, but with more utility. Right now Wake the Dead and Rally the Ancestors are doing that job in a bigger way, but more direct to play instants (and cheaper) always bear watching.
Earthcraft is broken levels of powerful, even without any evident infinite combos in the deck, though Enduring Alluren could do it (although that already infinite). Alluren + Mirari's Wake could get there too, possibly.
Traproot Kami I simply wanted to keep on my radar in case flying/early aggression ever proved a problem. This innocuous critter can stall attacks very, very well. Of course, the added life-gain wardens/martyr are ever on the radar, as is Children of Korlis, in similar roles.
Martyr's Bond - Dictate of Erebos does good work (as always) so a second grave pact seems like a good thing to have. Martyr's Bond, though expensive, provides a stronger effect than just grave pact (which clocks in at triple B as well).
Other potential
1 Elvish Hexhunter
1 Nova Cleric
Not a big change here, just a better answer to a mass enchantress player, rather than the pick and choose method of the hex hunter. This decision is likely to flip flop often based on meta differences, and is likely to be a personal choice between the two.
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As always, looking for potential CUTS for the deck more than anything.
Current watch list for cuts: Karmic Guide - most of my stuff is actually lower than it, that it doesn't give any discount options.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
The Elvish Hexhunter/Nova Cleric slot makes the most sense, but I'd like to keep an extra 1 drop option in order to have it be easily tutorable.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Aura Shards
5 Karmic Guide
6 Reveillark
2 Saffi Eriksdotter
3x Chord of calling
3 Rings of Brighthearth
5 Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker
3 Putrify
1x Mikaeus, the Lunarch
6 Martyr's Bond
4 Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest
4 Field of Souls
2 Karlov of the ghost Council
2 Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim
5 Cathars' Crusade
4 Aluren
2 Orzhov Charm
This is a big update, and incorporates many major changes - a move away from the combo aspect, and into token beats is by far the biggest upset. While the combo aspect fits the theme of the deck better, it simply wasn't fun to play. Though Cathars' Crusade was in before, and cut (since the +1 counters were simply landing on things that were going to get sacced anyways), I recently had an amusing game with Abzan Ascendancy, and the recent printing of Mazirek really lets this theme fit into the deck far more easily than before, so we're giving it a new green-light. We're not removing all of the combo, but we are going to limit it severely for this meantime, and then perhaps re-add some elements in over time to find that right balance.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Probably return Saffi or Rings into the deck if there are two.
Other options include
4 gravepact - for 3rd effect. BBB hurts.
2 No rest for the Wicked - Actually seems good.
1 Weathered Wayfarer - tutor urborg
4 Corpse Augur - solid card draw. Do I need more?
3 Second Sunrise - Seems good
4 Sifter of Skulls - another token engine.
3 Xathrid Necromancer - there are 10 humans.
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Edit: Pretty sure Scute Mob isn't in the current deck either... looks like I'll need to fix things...
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek