The beauty here is that only the original Combat Celebrant needs to do more than attack for it to work with Twin, and with Kiki-Jiki the original card never needs risk itself in combat.
Ummmm... Slightly confused here... In both combos, you shouldn't be actually attacking with the original Celebrant. You only attack with the copy. Or am I just having a massive brain fart?
... no, I'm just having a dumb.
Ok!!! Just checking... Thought that I might have to start cutting down the amount of booze I but in my system each hour. lol
I know that you aren't a fan of actually attacking.. But there is one card that you might like... Márton Stromgald. Yes, I know that I'm showing my love of some of the older cards (though I wish this was out back when I first started). Another card that works with this (or a lot of other cards in your deck if you so choose) is Break Through the Line... Just a thought. I run both in my Krenko deck and used to run them both in my Wort deck. Just a thought...
I know that you aren't a fan of actually attacking.. But there is one card that you might like... Márton Stromgald. Yes, I know that I'm showing my love of some of the older cards (though I wish this was out back when I first started). Another card that works with this (or a lot of other cards in your deck if you so choose) is Break Through the Line... Just a thought. I run both in my Krenko deck and used to run them both in my Wort deck. Just a thought...
Nah, it's not that I don't attack per se, but it's that I don't need to. I've found I have more than enough aggro support though.
Same here with my Wort deck. I just thought that I'd say something in case one of your followers or someone that likes Krenko tries to build a more aggro version. (I don't see why they would, but hey, some ppl like to just smash face)
Hey Jay, at some point I'm going to take the time to spike the ***** out of this deck. I'm sure it could benefit from some fast mana and other annoyingly-expensive cards that will allow it to combo off around turns 2-3 while under a Blood Moon effect. Once I have a list I'll post it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Proud owner of the EDH 'Infinite Combos and Strong Synergies' thread
Please put the colors of your suggestion in mana symbols prior to your suggestion in color-wheel order. To do this, put any of W, U, B, R, G, and/or C, whatever is applicable, with the word 'mana' inside [square bracets] before and the word '/mana' inside [square bracets] after the mana.
Hey Jay, at some point I'm going to take the time to spike the ***** out of this deck. I'm sure it could benefit from some fast mana and other annoyingly-expensive cards that will allow it to combo off around turns 2-3 while under a Blood Moon effect. Once I have a list I'll post it.
Honestly... Shouldn't all mono red decks be trying to run money hate as much as we can? It's R Most powerful effect but because so many don't run it, red is always considered the least powerful color. Try running U without card draw, or counters and everyone would consider it the weakest color. Same is true with us. Run the money hate. As much as we can. That guts out every single last tier one deck.
Just saying....
So... Izzet Chemister, Curse of Opulence, Kindred Charge, and Disrupt Decorum. I'm consider adding all of them. There's enough untap here that the Chemister essentially becomes a Snapcaster. Curse seems like a great way to overcome the deck's potential mana liability, and it's easy to get the attacker. Kindred Charge is just GOOD, and Disrupt Decorum feels like it's a definitely aggro win. Thoughts?
Okay, here's my thinking: Izzet Chemister is great with all the untap synergy in this deck. Swapping out for Arms Dealer, which is a card I love but can't really justify anymore.
Curse of Opulence just doesn't compete with the other ramp in the deck.
Kindred Charge in for Mogg Infestation. It does essentially the same thing for me, except I don't lose unique creatures (and get copies of them)
Disrupt Decorum is cool, but I don't think I'll need it. I tend to have an overwhelming board state fairly quickly, and Grenzo lets me goad any creatures I really need out of the way.
kindred charge I like a lot. definitely seems great compared to mogg infestation.
question on the chemister though, with the relatively low number of instants/sorceries in the deck is he really worth it? like kindred charge and burn at the stake would be a sick play off of it, but seems like a ridiculously unlikely scenario.
but still! maybe recasting dragon fodder for free wouldn't be too bad either
I would say simply that every single instant or sorcery in the deck is worth casting again, but a second Burn at the Stake or Goblin War Strike could easily mean a win. But thinking about it, Arms Dealer has been really useful for killing utility creatures. I think Kindred Charge is all I'll add for now.
Wily Goblin seems handy. The rare red ramp, helps get to T3 Krenko and otherwise gives some extra mana for later. I'm not sure what I'd swap for it, though. It might just become a budget recommendation.
Wily Goblin seems handy. The rare red ramp, helps get to T3 Krenko and otherwise gives some extra mana for later. I'm not sure what I'd swap for it, though. It might just become a budget recommendation.
Here's what I decided from Ixalan:
In:Vanquisher's BannerOut:Obelisk of Urd
This was a hard decision to make, but the Banner over the Obelisk really helps the deck's long game by ensuring card advantage and keeping my hand more full later in the game.
The deck's biggest weakness is the late game after a board sweep. Vanquisher's Banner is still an anthem effect, but it's that second ability that got it included here. Obelisk of Urd alone won't win me any games unless I get really, really lucky, and Vanquisher's Banner will still help me the same way, getting card draw off cast goblins in the late game is what's key.
Hi all! This seems like one of the better threads for a competitive Krenko deck. I read through all the posts, including the changelog, and here are some card ideas I didn't see mentioned by Jay or anyone else:
(this is my first comment on mtgsalvation, so sorry about the formatting if it's bad)
Thermopod -- a five mana Phyrexian Altar. I feel like this deck wants as many as it can get, but it is worse than the other altars Hellraiser Goblin -- global haste enablers that are themselves goblins? This def seems better than Fervor, because it's also a Goblin. There's a drawback, but there are enough sac outlets that I think it's properly mitigated. Also, if anyone has a Propaganda or something out, then you don't have to attack anyone. Akki Drillmaster -- another 3-mana haste enabler that's also a goblin. No drawback here. Aggravated Assault -- another combo enabler for both Krenko and Kiki Emblem of the Warmind, Need for Speed, Bloodlust Inciter, Crimson Wisps -- These are all definitely worse than Ashling's Prerogative, but cheaper than Fervor or Hammer of Purphoros. Would take testing to tell if they're better, but is probably worth taking a look if you haven't. Changeling Berserker -- less good without Moggcatcher, but this also combos with Kiki similar to Lightning Crafter (e.g., Kiki + Berserker + Sledder or Bombardment). You can also use it to untap Krenko if you have a sac outlet and haste enabler. Also decent for protecting against board wipes. Goblin Pyromancer, Goblin Lookout -- a tutorable overrun. It's not better than other aggro effects except for being tutorable. You play Quest for the Goblin Lord and Coat of Arms so it's not like you don't want this effect at all.
Also, if your playgroup is cool with it, there's Mons's Goblin Waiters as a backup Skirk Prospector
Did you test Cloudstone Curio? Haste effect + Curio isn't enough to infinite combo without, but will generate a ton of goblins.
In the primer, all the thornbite staff + sac outlet for mana combos seem to miss the fact that with infinite death triggers and infinite mana, you can ping them to death with Thornbite Staff's first ability -- nothing else necessary.
You also don't mention that with Kiki+Lightning Crafter but no sac outlet, the copies of Crafter can shoot themselves for infinite ETBs and death triggers. And, Kiki+Crafter with no sac outlet is still like 20 targeted damage per turn cycle or something (in a 4-player game, it's 18 the first cycle, 21 each subsequent), just those two cards alone. Various other non sac-outlets increase that. Plus all the other shenanigans you can do with Crafter without Kiki (you actually did mention a couple of them)
I know you tested Mass Hysteria, and you said it's not fun to play it turn 1. What if you just hold it? It's pretty good on turn 3 with a two drop. It also lets you wait till turn five to cast Krenko without losing tempo. Mayb it just requires finesse, until you know what everyone else is playing? Also, dropping it too far in advance of Krenko makes you more of a target and shapes the decisions in turns 1-4 for everyone else. Idk.
I think you might want to give Moggcatcher another shot. It should straight up win you the game like 90% of the time you untap with it with 6 or 7 mana, on the spot. I feel like you must not be playing it right if it's not. My EDH experience with it is a little different, because I'm running it in a BR goblin deck, and have options like Goblin Ringleader, Sensation Gorger, some black goblins, Krenko in the library to fetch, a lot more utility and board control goblins, more cards with "champion", and much more ramp (I try to get to about 9 mana in that deck, as opposed to what looks like 5 or 6 being perfect for Krenko).
The most reliable way on an empty board is to just untap with it and pass. If someone tries to kill it you get Kiki, copy it, then get Changeling Berserker and save it. Otherwise, EoT, get Kiki, copy it, get Goblin Chirurgeon, untap and get Lightning Crafter (using the kiki'd copy from last turn), then win on the spot. If someone has removal, you have Chirurgeon already, but have the original untapped to fetch Changeling Berserker at instant speed to save your Kiki, or just to untap it again for some reason. Alternately, you can EoT Sensation Gorger, (or get Kiki THEN Sensation Gorger), then get Recruiter in response to the upkeep trigger, which allows you to put FIVE goblins from your library into your hand. With enough diversity of options, that lets you really go into a winning position on pretty much any board, even with just 4 or 5 mana available. There's also, as soon as you untap with it, if you think it won't survive, just fetching Recruiter on upkeep and putting Ringleader and four gobbos under it (or 8, if you plan to Kiki). That costs 8 mana (3 to activate, 4 for Ringleader, then 1 for Prospector to keep going), but it's just so powerful...There are so many goblins to fetch, you can almost always find a set of 5 to put you in a winning position, at least for the following turn.
Lastly, did you try out Wily Goblin? In your opening hand, it's better than Hammer of Purphoros, and on par Goblin Warchief (although worse later on)
Turn 2 Wily Goblin
Turn 3 Krenko
Turn 4, make a play, then make at least 2 goblins
Turn 5, make another play, then make at least 4 goblins
Turn 3 Hammer
Turn 4 Krenko, make a goblin
Turn 5, make a play, make 2+ goblins
Wily Goblin is a full turn faster. Plus, you can keep more hands with it, as it lets you go off with 3 lands as opposed to 4.
Also, just to update, Kiki is like $5-$9 these days, possibly thanks to the impending ICA reprinting, and mayb the metagame in the modern format. No longer $20
Anyway, regardless of these suggestions, I love your writeup at the top of this thread! I'm bookmarking it and will be returning a few times at least! Cheers
Kiki + Crafter + nothing else. Assuming 9 lands, zero board, both in hand, no other cards in hand.
Play Kiki first, then Crafter. Works the same if you played Kiki last turn, or very similar if you played Crafter last turn and Kiki this turn, as long has you had something to champion last turn.
champion trigger on stack, copy crafter
3 to face
exile Kiki to the copy's champion trigger
exile the copy to original's champion trigger, Kiki returns (if you played the crafter on a previous turn, you don't get this first 3 damage this way, but you get the 3 from the original for not being summoning sick instead)
each end of combat, or during 2nd main:
-copy crafter, 3 to face, champion Kiki, EOT, sac copy, Kiki returns
repeat on each player's turn (so 4x)
EOT before your turn, copy Crafter, 3 to face, champion the original crafter*
UNTAP (congrats you just dealt 18 damage)
upkeep, 3 to face with copy
combat, 3 more (you can copy the copy)
EoT, order the sac triggers so the second copy dies first, bringing back Kiki, then first copy dies, bringing back the original crafter
copy it, 3 to face, champion kiki, champion the copy, kiki returns.
3 more each combat, etc.
do that same EOT shenanigans where you champion the original crafter
UNTAP (congrats, you've done 39 damage so far. Hopefully someone is dead by now)
repeat
*you can champion another goblin instead here, if you have one, but it's only better if it has an ETB ability, like Matron, in which case you champion that at the end of turn before you untap. A haste enabler only increases this clock by 3 a turn (so, 21 first turn cycle, then 24). Obv a sac outlet lets you go infinite immediately.
Krenko+Aggravated Assault+Skirk Prospector+no other goblins + SEVEN mana = infinite deaths & ETBs, combats, and untaps -- anyone without blockers dies to Prospector attacks. Or with to your Impact Tremors or other enchantments.
Krenko+Aggravated Assault+Skirk Prospector+no other goblins + EIGHT mana = infinite tokens and mana (& triggers etc.)
Krenko+Aggravated Assault+Skirk Prospector+1 other goblins + FOUR mana = infinite triggers, etc.
Krenko+Aggravated Assault+Skirk Prospector+1 other goblins + FIVE mana = infinite tokens and mana (& triggers etc.)
Krenko+Aggravated Assault+Skirk Prospector+2 other goblins + TWO mana = infinite triggers, etc.
Krenko+Aggravated Assault+Skirk Prospector+2 other goblins + THREE mana = infinite tokens and mana (& triggers etc.)
Krenko+Aggravated Assault+Skirk Prospector+3 other goblins + no mana = infinite triggers
obv you can swap Skirk Prospector for Phyrexian Altar or Thermopod + a goblin. Ashnod's Altar does get out of hand with Aggravated Assault, but doesn't go infinite as it requires red mana.
Overall, with or without an Altar effect, this is worse than Sword of the Paruns. Like Paruns, it doubles as an aggro card, but not good on defense like Paruns. But it combos better with Kiki, and is a little different. I'm kinda surprised that you cut Paruns though; I'd imagine you would want more effects like it, not just the two. Although yeah, 10 mana to get Paruns started is a lot.
untap with Kiki + Aggravated Assaulted + Iron Myr + 6 mana to win
Instead of Iron Myr, this also works with
In your experience, how often is Combat Celebrant + Kiki enough to win on its own? If a player has a creature with first strike, indestructible, pro-red (or pro-creatures), or a Ghostly Prison, Fog Bank, Lightning Bolt, Moment's Peace, etc
In my opinion, your idea of competitive might be a little skewed. While I too love the work that Jay has put into Don Krenko there's still so much that can be done. For example, I see one mana rock which isn't a 0-drop; that whole cycle could be added to push out dudes sooner. I see no wheel effects what so ever and those are amazing in if not every deck with red then at least all-in ones like this one. I don't see any fetch lands which help to thin a deck, and the life loss is negligible since we should be winning in a couple turns.
Now again, I don't hate the deck what so ever; you'll even see at least one post of mine in this thread. I've even built this deck and it's sitting about 10 feet from me right now just itching for some NZT. I have a good idea of what I want to do with it but project-wise things like work unfortunately take priority.
As for your suggestions, you may be misguided on some of them. As a rule of thumb you want to lower the average converted mana cost of your cards to improve your deck, not increase it, so something like Thermopod over the altar is not that great. Likewise, Drillmaster is much worse than Hammer because it takes a turn before you can use it and is subject to more common removal found in EDH. We also need to protect our important assets, like all of our solid goblins, so any way we can protect them is great. Need for Speed could actually be good because you only need to give Krenko haste once because after that that we should be winning or have won.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Proud owner of the EDH 'Infinite Combos and Strong Synergies' thread
Please put the colors of your suggestion in mana symbols prior to your suggestion in color-wheel order. To do this, put any of W, U, B, R, G, and/or C, whatever is applicable, with the word 'mana' inside [square bracets] before and the word '/mana' inside [square bracets] after the mana.
Thermopod not instead of Altar, but in addition to it. Altar is so good in that deck, wouldn't you want another, even if it's worse? Or maybe you don't, idk. I haven't played the deck; it's just a card to discuss that I haven't seen mentioned yet. It could be a good as a budget substitute if nothing else, as Phyrexian Altar is like $30, I think. I'm not sure how you got the impression that I was suggesting Thermopod is better than Phyrexian Altar; it's obviously a lot worse.
Drillmaster vs Hammer -- The only downside is that drillmaster won't give all the tokens haste, which is worse if you intend to attack, but Jay has said he doesn't need more aggro support; he even cut Ogre Battledriver. For giving Krenko haste, Drillmaster is just better than Hammer. Yes you can use Hammer the turn in comes into play, but in what scenario are you casting Hammer and Krenko in the same turn, in a deck with zero ramp that tries to win quickly? That takes 7 mana, or 9...there are altars for ramp, but those don't do much if you don't already have Krenko out. In the opening hand, do you want turn 3 Drillmaster or turn 3 Hammer? Drillmaster dies to common creature removal, but if I'm happy if they use their Swords to Plowshares on Drillmaster, instead of saving it for Krenko. But, to be fair, I'd prob be happy if they Nature's Claim my Hammer too, because that clears the way for Staff of Domination or Impact Tremors to live. Drillmaster is worse against board wipes, but so is Goblin Chieftain, and that's not getting cut. Just having an additional goblin during your first activation of Krenko is huge.
Haste enablers are really good with Krenko. There are 7 of them, not including Swiftfoot Boots, Goblin Matron, or Zealous Conscripts (none of those let you activate Krenko on turn 4). How many do you want? I assume you want more, but only if they're good (so, no Mass Hysteria). My instinct would be like 10 or 11, giving you a 55%/59% chance of seeing one by turn 3, if you kept a hand with 3+ lands, as opposed to 42% with 7. But I'm assuming Jay doesn't want any more, either because he thinks the others are bad (as with Mass Hysteria), or redundant. Assuming it's the redundant argument, Hammer is definitely the worst of the ones he IS playing, and I think Akki Drillmaster and Wily Goblin are almost definitely better, and Emblem of the Warmind, Need for Speed, and Bloodlust Inciter might be better, and are worth trying out. And all of these cards are less than 20 cents.
As for the rest of my suggestions, I don't think any of them are better than what he's already playing, at least not with any confidence without testing. But some of them might be, and none were cards I'd seen discussed at all, in a relatively long thread
In:The Immortal SunOut:Armillary Sphere
Both these cards fill a similar role in this deck: namely to keep it going in the long game. The added card draw is a big bonus for this deck, and adding in making things slightly cheaper (which can make a big difference in this deck) and the anthem effect, it felt like an appropriate swap.
I like the idea of a turn 3 The Immortal Sun, which would just be devastating.
If you had to point out 2-5 of the weakest non-land cards in this deck, from your experiences, which would you pick? I run a deck similar to this one in my playgroup and have been experimenting with some meta-hate (Pyroblast, REB, Blood Sun, etc.) and would love to get some input in this regard from a reputable fellow goblin farmer.
If you had to point out 2-5 of the weakest non-land cards in this deck, from your experiences, which would you pick? I run a deck similar to this one in my playgroup and have been experimenting with some meta-hate (Pyroblast, REB, Blood Sun, etc.) and would love to get some input in this regard from a reputable fellow goblin farmer.
Cheers!
I would say any of the combo pieces that don't revolve around Krenko or don't work well without a bit of set-up. Splinter Twin, Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker, Zealous Conscripts, Izzet Chemister, or Lightning Crafter. They're all good cards but they're all 3-4 piece combos. I seriously consider them for removal every time, because I'd like to focus on Krenko-based combos.
I've recently refound my love for Magic and discovered Commander. After buying the vampire precon deck, this is the first deck I'm building. I've always loved goblins and am looking forward to what Dominaria will bring for tinkering around with!
Anyway, not much to add yet, except maybe that you mention Sol Ring as a substitute for Altar but Sol Ring is already in the deck ;-) Thanks for posting this, am having fun building and playing it!
I've recently refound my love for Magic and discovered Commander. After buying the vampire precon deck, this is the first deck I'm building. I've always loved goblins and am looking forward to what Dominaria will bring for tinkering around with!
Anyway, not much to add yet, except maybe that you mention Sol Ring as a substitute for Altar but Sol Ring is already in the deck ;-) Thanks for posting this, am having fun building and playing it!
Helm of the Host and Goblin Chainwhirler are things I'm investigating. The Helm has some major potential, but I'm waiting on the physical cards to play around with it more.
Hey. Forever lurker, first time commenter. Longtime goblin Legacy player. EDH-wise, I've transitioned from Zada to Kiki, and now considering moving to Krenko.
Looking for some inputs from someone with more Krenko experience.
1. Thoughts on Aggravated Assault?
It goes infinite with Skirk Prospector/Phyrexian Altar + Goblin Tokens. It also curves with Krenko by casting at T3 and activating ability at T5 (or earlier if with support). It does similar work to Kindred Charge, but has the potential to go infinite, reach, and recurrability - vs Kindred Charge which doubles the number of unique goblins, and doesn't spend time on the board (less vulnerable to removal).
2. Thoughts on Cloudstone Curio?
With a Skirk Prospector/Phyrexian Altar, can go - Infinite death, Infinite Tokens, Infinite Mana, Infinite ETBs - with Krenko. Also gives Krenko a back-to-hand option for removal/wipe protection. Also an untapping option if you keep bounce-recasting Krenko until you run out of mana.
3. Thoughts on Command Beacon?
Because board wipes.
4. Thoughts on Chandra TOD?
Comparable abilities to The Immortal Sun (card advantage, ramp), but comes down two turns earlier. Chandra TOD also comes with a much-needed option for removal and a win-con.
5. Thoughts on Ruby Medallion?
Helps to cast Krenko a turn earlier and brings down the cost of other combo pieces. Running down your list, it can maybe replace the anthem enchantment Quest for the Goblin Lord? It's basically deciding between rushing to combo vs tap right aggro. Maybe this is more of a meta call. I personally compete against a lot of control/stax decks where aggro plays are not as effective.
6. Thoughts on Sensation Gorger?
A much-needed wheel effect, because mono-red and draw problems. And always a great play to put this card on top of the library after arranging an infinite combo with Goblin Recruiter.
6. Thoughts on Imperial Recruiter?
Basically a second Goblin Matron that can help fetch individual combo pieces. Or fetch Goblin Recruiter to arrange an infinite combo.
7. Thoughts on Shattering Spree?
Personally I just find it more flexible than Vandalblast. But either is good.
Do you have a version of your deck without the Splinter Twin, Combat Celebrant, etc package? Seems like they interact with only a few other pieces outside of their own combo package. Makes me hesitate in adding them. (And as I am typing and back-reading, I see that you've mentioned them as your most cut-able pieces).
1. Thoughts on Aggravated Assault?
It goes infinite with Skirk Prospector/Phyrexian Altar + Goblin Tokens. It also curves with Krenko by casting at T3 and activating ability at T5 (or earlier if with support). It does similar work to Kindred Charge, but has the potential to go infinite, reach, and recurability - vs Kindred Charge which doubles the number of unique goblins, and doesn't spend time on the board (less vulnerable to removal).
2. Thoughts on Cloudstone Curio?
With a Skirk Prospector/Phyrexian Altar, can go - Infinite death, Infinite Tokens, Infinite Mana, Infinite ETBs - with Krenko. Also gives Krenko a back-to-hand option for removal/wipe protection. Also an untapping option if you keep bounce-recasting Krenko until you run out of mana.
4. Thoughts on Chandra TOD?
Comparable abilities to The Immortal Sun (card advantage, ramp), but comes down two turns earlier. Chandra TOD also comes with a much-needed option for removal and a win-con.
Some of these choices are limited by the cards I have, so my TOD is in a different list. I AM looking to revamp my list in the near future, so I'll take a serious look at this.
5. Thoughts on Ruby Medallion?
Helps to cast Krenko a turn earlier and brings down the cost of other combo pieces. Running down your list, it can maybe replace the anthem enchantment Quest for the Goblin Lord? It's basically deciding between rushing to combo vs tap right aggro. Maybe this is more of a meta call. I personally compete against a lot of control/stax decks where aggro plays are not as effective.
If anything, I would swap it for Armillary Sphere. Quest for the Goblin Lord is a really strong card in this deck. It turns on very quickly, frequently in the same turn it comes down.
6. Thoughts on Sensation Gorger?
A much-needed wheel effect, because mono-red and draw problems. And always a great play to put this card on top of the library after arranging an infinite combo with Goblin Recruiter.
I could see this card replacing something to get more goblins on the board.
6. Thoughts on Imperial Recruiter?
Basically a second Goblin Matron that can help fetch individual combo pieces. Or fetch Goblin Recruiter to arrange an infinite combo.
You can definitely do it, but I'm not sure it's worth it in this deck. In the games I play, missing some piece I would want is rarely an issue except late game.
Do you have a version of your deck without the Splinter Twin, Combat Celebrant, etc package? Seems like they interact with only a few other pieces outside of their own combo package. Makes me hesitate in adding them. (And as I am typing and back-reading, I see that you've mentioned them as your most cut-able pieces).
I'm actually looking to get rid of them. The non-Krenko infinite combos have only ever come together once.
So, I've been thinking about this for a while, and I'm finally pulling the trigger. The more I diluted the essence of this deck, the less fun it was becoming to play. I've been adding things for the sake of combos, not because they necessarily work with the goblin theme or not.
So today's edits take Dominaria, Battlebond, and Core 2019's wealth of great cards and replaces some combo pieces that were taking up space, were essentially win-more, or were not that helpful and went against the core philosophy of the deck.
Additions: Cheering Fanatic is a fantastic curve card. Attacking with a Cheering Fanatic on Turn 3 means I can also cast Krenko. Dark-Dweller Oracle is insane for this deck. I have no shortage of creatures to sacrifice and 'Impulse Drawing' helps filter through the deck. Because I keep my CMC relatively low, I should be able to cast almost anything I exile this way. Goblin Instigator is just another Mogg War Marshal/Dragon Fodder. That's not a bad thing, as it lowers my curve again and provide two bodies. Goblin Trashmaster is a repeatable Smelt. That's good. Helm of the Host is just a great commander card, but being able to make non-legendary copies of Krenko, Kiki-Jiki, or Purphoros has obvious advantages.
Subtractions: Zealous Conscripts and Splinter Twin are infinite combo pieces, but much harder to set-up than the ones that already exist for Krenko. The only reason I haven't cut Kiki-Jiki is that he's still very useful in this deck outside of infinite combos. These two are not, and sit dead in my hand unless I have one of the other pieces. That's obviously bad for a deck that emphasizes the early game.
Combat Celebrant is strong, it's true, and I would recommend including him in just about any aggro deck with red. In this case, though, I'm looking to cut out the non-goblin creatures for my 'back to basics' efforts.
Izzet Chemister doesn't really add the value I'd wanted from it in this deck. I might give it another go if I bring my number of instants and sorceries up.
The Immortal Sun was in her for late-game card draw, but Goblin Dark-Dweller is just so much better in this deck, and on curve, that I decided to replace it.
Note: I'm working on updating the Primer so you may not see these changes reflected for a few hours. 'Back to Basics' doesn't stop here, I'm going to be looking at moving back to a more goblin-centric deck overall, and hopefully getting the number of goblin creatures back up to 30ish.
Ok!!! Just checking... Thought that I might have to start cutting down the amount of booze I but in my system each hour. lol
Goblin Green Acres
Goblin Green Acres
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
Goblin Green Acres
Please put the colors of your suggestion in mana symbols prior to your suggestion in color-wheel order. To do this, put any of W, U, B, R, G, and/or C, whatever is applicable, with the word 'mana' inside [square bracets] before and the word '/mana' inside [square bracets] after the mana.
Freezing Point EDH series #1 (click through the other articles too!)
Honestly... Shouldn't all mono red decks be trying to run money hate as much as we can? It's R Most powerful effect but because so many don't run it, red is always considered the least powerful color. Try running U without card draw, or counters and everyone would consider it the weakest color. Same is true with us. Run the money hate. As much as we can. That guts out every single last tier one deck.
Just saying....
Goblin Green Acres
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
Curse of Opulence just doesn't compete with the other ramp in the deck.
Kindred Charge in for Mogg Infestation. It does essentially the same thing for me, except I don't lose unique creatures (and get copies of them)
Disrupt Decorum is cool, but I don't think I'll need it. I tend to have an overwhelming board state fairly quickly, and Grenzo lets me goad any creatures I really need out of the way.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
In: Vanquisher's Banner Out: Obelisk of Urd
This was a hard decision to make, but the Banner over the Obelisk really helps the deck's long game by ensuring card advantage and keeping my hand more full later in the game.
The deck's biggest weakness is the late game after a board sweep. Vanquisher's Banner is still an anthem effect, but it's that second ability that got it included here. Obelisk of Urd alone won't win me any games unless I get really, really lucky, and Vanquisher's Banner will still help me the same way, getting card draw off cast goblins in the late game is what's key.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
(this is my first comment on mtgsalvation, so sorry about the formatting if it's bad)
Thermopod -- a five mana Phyrexian Altar. I feel like this deck wants as many as it can get, but it is worse than the other altars
Hellraiser Goblin -- global haste enablers that are themselves goblins? This def seems better than Fervor, because it's also a Goblin. There's a drawback, but there are enough sac outlets that I think it's properly mitigated. Also, if anyone has a Propaganda or something out, then you don't have to attack anyone.
Akki Drillmaster -- another 3-mana haste enabler that's also a goblin. No drawback here.
Aggravated Assault -- another combo enabler for both Krenko and Kiki
Emblem of the Warmind, Need for Speed, Bloodlust Inciter, Crimson Wisps -- These are all definitely worse than Ashling's Prerogative, but cheaper than Fervor or Hammer of Purphoros. Would take testing to tell if they're better, but is probably worth taking a look if you haven't.
Changeling Berserker -- less good without Moggcatcher, but this also combos with Kiki similar to Lightning Crafter (e.g., Kiki + Berserker + Sledder or Bombardment). You can also use it to untap Krenko if you have a sac outlet and haste enabler. Also decent for protecting against board wipes.
Goblin Pyromancer, Goblin Lookout -- a tutorable overrun. It's not better than other aggro effects except for being tutorable. You play Quest for the Goblin Lord and Coat of Arms so it's not like you don't want this effect at all.
Also, if your playgroup is cool with it, there's Mons's Goblin Waiters as a backup Skirk Prospector
I'm having trouble understanding Armillary Sphere. I'd go with Ruby Medallion, Hazoret's Monument/Herald's Horn (which also give card advantage), Sword of the Animist, Pyramid of the Pantheon, or just Iron Myr even. Esp bc Iron Myr gives you more combo options with Kiki and your untap effects
Did you test Cloudstone Curio? Haste effect + Curio isn't enough to infinite combo without, but will generate a ton of goblins.
In the primer, all the thornbite staff + sac outlet for mana combos seem to miss the fact that with infinite death triggers and infinite mana, you can ping them to death with Thornbite Staff's first ability -- nothing else necessary.
You also don't mention that with Kiki+Lightning Crafter but no sac outlet, the copies of Crafter can shoot themselves for infinite ETBs and death triggers. And, Kiki+Crafter with no sac outlet is still like 20 targeted damage per turn cycle or something (in a 4-player game, it's 18 the first cycle, 21 each subsequent), just those two cards alone. Various other non sac-outlets increase that. Plus all the other shenanigans you can do with Crafter without Kiki (you actually did mention a couple of them)
I know you tested Mass Hysteria, and you said it's not fun to play it turn 1. What if you just hold it? It's pretty good on turn 3 with a two drop. It also lets you wait till turn five to cast Krenko without losing tempo. Mayb it just requires finesse, until you know what everyone else is playing? Also, dropping it too far in advance of Krenko makes you more of a target and shapes the decisions in turns 1-4 for everyone else. Idk.
I think you might want to give Moggcatcher another shot. It should straight up win you the game like 90% of the time you untap with it with 6 or 7 mana, on the spot. I feel like you must not be playing it right if it's not. My EDH experience with it is a little different, because I'm running it in a BR goblin deck, and have options like Goblin Ringleader, Sensation Gorger, some black goblins, Krenko in the library to fetch, a lot more utility and board control goblins, more cards with "champion", and much more ramp (I try to get to about 9 mana in that deck, as opposed to what looks like 5 or 6 being perfect for Krenko).
Lastly, did you try out Wily Goblin? In your opening hand, it's better than Hammer of Purphoros, and on par Goblin Warchief (although worse later on)
Turn 3 Krenko
Turn 4, make a play, then make at least 2 goblins
Turn 5, make another play, then make at least 4 goblins
Turn 4 Krenko, make a goblin
Turn 5, make a play, make 2+ goblins
Also, just to update, Kiki is like $5-$9 these days, possibly thanks to the impending ICA reprinting, and mayb the metagame in the modern format. No longer $20
Anyway, regardless of these suggestions, I love your writeup at the top of this thread! I'm bookmarking it and will be returning a few times at least! Cheers
Play Kiki first, then Crafter. Works the same if you played Kiki last turn, or very similar if you played Crafter last turn and Kiki this turn, as long has you had something to champion last turn.
champion trigger on stack, copy crafter
3 to face
exile Kiki to the copy's champion trigger
exile the copy to original's champion trigger, Kiki returns (if you played the crafter on a previous turn, you don't get this first 3 damage this way, but you get the 3 from the original for not being summoning sick instead)
each end of combat, or during 2nd main:
-copy crafter, 3 to face, champion Kiki, EOT, sac copy, Kiki returns
repeat on each player's turn (so 4x)
EOT before your turn, copy Crafter, 3 to face, champion the original crafter*
UNTAP (congrats you just dealt 18 damage)
upkeep, 3 to face with copy
combat, 3 more (you can copy the copy)
EoT, order the sac triggers so the second copy dies first, bringing back Kiki, then first copy dies, bringing back the original crafter
copy it, 3 to face, champion kiki, champion the copy, kiki returns.
3 more each combat, etc.
do that same EOT shenanigans where you champion the original crafter
UNTAP (congrats, you've done 39 damage so far. Hopefully someone is dead by now)
repeat
*you can champion another goblin instead here, if you have one, but it's only better if it has an ETB ability, like Matron, in which case you champion that at the end of turn before you untap. A haste enabler only increases this clock by 3 a turn (so, 21 first turn cycle, then 24). Obv a sac outlet lets you go infinite immediately.
Krenko+Aggravated Assault+Skirk Prospector+no other goblins + EIGHT mana = infinite tokens and mana (& triggers etc.)
Krenko+Aggravated Assault+Skirk Prospector+1 other goblins + FOUR mana = infinite triggers, etc.
Krenko+Aggravated Assault+Skirk Prospector+1 other goblins + FIVE mana = infinite tokens and mana (& triggers etc.)
Krenko+Aggravated Assault+Skirk Prospector+2 other goblins + TWO mana = infinite triggers, etc.
Krenko+Aggravated Assault+Skirk Prospector+2 other goblins + THREE mana = infinite tokens and mana (& triggers etc.)
Krenko+Aggravated Assault+Skirk Prospector+3 other goblins + no mana = infinite triggers
obv you can swap Skirk Prospector for Phyrexian Altar or Thermopod + a goblin. Ashnod's Altar does get out of hand with Aggravated Assault, but doesn't go infinite as it requires red mana.
Overall, with or without an Altar effect, this is worse than Sword of the Paruns. Like Paruns, it doubles as an aggro card, but not good on defense like Paruns. But it combos better with Kiki, and is a little different. I'm kinda surprised that you cut Paruns though; I'd imagine you would want more effects like it, not just the two. Although yeah, 10 mana to get Paruns started is a lot.
Instead of Iron Myr, this also works with
- Scuttlemutt
- Alloy Myr
- Opaline Unicorn
- Sisters of the Flame
- Conduit of Storms
- Captain Lannery Storm
- Cultivator's Caravan
(+Hill Giant+1 extra mana)Ghitu Encampment(+10 extra mana, but is kinda free to include)
Lotus Guardian
Priest of Urabrask+Mutavault also lets you do it.
That's a complete list of creatures that tap for red that you can play in a mono-red commander deck, as far as I know. These all combo well with Paradox Engine as well. Although the only one that really works with Combat Celebrant is Captain Lannery Storm, because you lose the mana between phases, otherwise.
In your experience, how often is Combat Celebrant + Kiki enough to win on its own? If a player has a creature with first strike, indestructible, pro-red (or pro-creatures), or a Ghostly Prison, Fog Bank, Lightning Bolt, Moment's Peace, etc
Now again, I don't hate the deck what so ever; you'll even see at least one post of mine in this thread. I've even built this deck and it's sitting about 10 feet from me right now just itching for some NZT. I have a good idea of what I want to do with it but project-wise things like work unfortunately take priority.
As for your suggestions, you may be misguided on some of them. As a rule of thumb you want to lower the average converted mana cost of your cards to improve your deck, not increase it, so something like Thermopod over the altar is not that great. Likewise, Drillmaster is much worse than Hammer because it takes a turn before you can use it and is subject to more common removal found in EDH. We also need to protect our important assets, like all of our solid goblins, so any way we can protect them is great. Need for Speed could actually be good because you only need to give Krenko haste once because after that that we should be winning or have won.
Please put the colors of your suggestion in mana symbols prior to your suggestion in color-wheel order. To do this, put any of W, U, B, R, G, and/or C, whatever is applicable, with the word 'mana' inside [square bracets] before and the word '/mana' inside [square bracets] after the mana.
Freezing Point EDH series #1 (click through the other articles too!)
Drillmaster vs Hammer -- The only downside is that drillmaster won't give all the tokens haste, which is worse if you intend to attack, but Jay has said he doesn't need more aggro support; he even cut Ogre Battledriver. For giving Krenko haste, Drillmaster is just better than Hammer. Yes you can use Hammer the turn in comes into play, but in what scenario are you casting Hammer and Krenko in the same turn, in a deck with zero ramp that tries to win quickly? That takes 7 mana, or 9...there are altars for ramp, but those don't do much if you don't already have Krenko out. In the opening hand, do you want turn 3 Drillmaster or turn 3 Hammer? Drillmaster dies to common creature removal, but if I'm happy if they use their Swords to Plowshares on Drillmaster, instead of saving it for Krenko. But, to be fair, I'd prob be happy if they Nature's Claim my Hammer too, because that clears the way for Staff of Domination or Impact Tremors to live. Drillmaster is worse against board wipes, but so is Goblin Chieftain, and that's not getting cut. Just having an additional goblin during your first activation of Krenko is huge.
Haste enablers are really good with Krenko. There are 7 of them, not including Swiftfoot Boots, Goblin Matron, or Zealous Conscripts (none of those let you activate Krenko on turn 4). How many do you want? I assume you want more, but only if they're good (so, no Mass Hysteria). My instinct would be like 10 or 11, giving you a 55%/59% chance of seeing one by turn 3, if you kept a hand with 3+ lands, as opposed to 42% with 7. But I'm assuming Jay doesn't want any more, either because he thinks the others are bad (as with Mass Hysteria), or redundant. Assuming it's the redundant argument, Hammer is definitely the worst of the ones he IS playing, and I think Akki Drillmaster and Wily Goblin are almost definitely better, and Emblem of the Warmind, Need for Speed, and Bloodlust Inciter might be better, and are worth trying out. And all of these cards are less than 20 cents.
As for the rest of my suggestions, I don't think any of them are better than what he's already playing, at least not with any confidence without testing. But some of them might be, and none were cards I'd seen discussed at all, in a relatively long thread
In: The Immortal Sun Out: Armillary Sphere
Both these cards fill a similar role in this deck: namely to keep it going in the long game. The added card draw is a big bonus for this deck, and adding in making things slightly cheaper (which can make a big difference in this deck) and the anthem effect, it felt like an appropriate swap.
I like the idea of a turn 3 The Immortal Sun, which would just be devastating.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
If you had to point out 2-5 of the weakest non-land cards in this deck, from your experiences, which would you pick? I run a deck similar to this one in my playgroup and have been experimenting with some meta-hate (Pyroblast, REB, Blood Sun, etc.) and would love to get some input in this regard from a reputable fellow goblin farmer.
Cheers!
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
Anyway, not much to add yet, except maybe that you mention Sol Ring as a substitute for Altar but Sol Ring is already in the deck ;-) Thanks for posting this, am having fun building and playing it!
Helm of the Host and Goblin Chainwhirler are things I'm investigating. The Helm has some major potential, but I'm waiting on the physical cards to play around with it more.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
Looking for some inputs from someone with more Krenko experience.
--------------------------------------------------------------
1. Thoughts on Aggravated Assault?
It goes infinite with Skirk Prospector/Phyrexian Altar + Goblin Tokens. It also curves with Krenko by casting at T3 and activating ability at T5 (or earlier if with support). It does similar work to Kindred Charge, but has the potential to go infinite, reach, and recurrability - vs Kindred Charge which doubles the number of unique goblins, and doesn't spend time on the board (less vulnerable to removal).
2. Thoughts on Cloudstone Curio?
With a Skirk Prospector/Phyrexian Altar, can go - Infinite death, Infinite Tokens, Infinite Mana, Infinite ETBs - with Krenko. Also gives Krenko a back-to-hand option for removal/wipe protection. Also an untapping option if you keep bounce-recasting Krenko until you run out of mana.
3. Thoughts on Command Beacon?
Because board wipes.
4. Thoughts on Chandra TOD?
Comparable abilities to The Immortal Sun (card advantage, ramp), but comes down two turns earlier. Chandra TOD also comes with a much-needed option for removal and a win-con.
5. Thoughts on Ruby Medallion?
Helps to cast Krenko a turn earlier and brings down the cost of other combo pieces. Running down your list, it can maybe replace the anthem enchantment Quest for the Goblin Lord? It's basically deciding between rushing to combo vs tap right aggro. Maybe this is more of a meta call. I personally compete against a lot of control/stax decks where aggro plays are not as effective.
6. Thoughts on Sensation Gorger?
A much-needed wheel effect, because mono-red and draw problems. And always a great play to put this card on top of the library after arranging an infinite combo with Goblin Recruiter.
6. Thoughts on Imperial Recruiter?
Basically a second Goblin Matron that can help fetch individual combo pieces. Or fetch Goblin Recruiter to arrange an infinite combo.
7. Thoughts on Shattering Spree?
Personally I just find it more flexible than Vandalblast. But either is good.
--------------------------------------------------------------
And an additional question:
Do you have a version of your deck without the Splinter Twin, Combat Celebrant, etc package? Seems like they interact with only a few other pieces outside of their own combo package. Makes me hesitate in adding them. (And as I am typing and back-reading, I see that you've mentioned them as your most cut-able pieces).
--------------------------------------------------------------
Anyway, enjoyed your primer. It has a great flow, and plenty of informative discussion points.
Wheel of Fortune
Mox Diamond
Mox Opal
Mana Crypt
Ancient Tomb
Anything that can get Krenko out T2/T3 then finishing the game ahead of other combo-rush decks.
Aggravated Assault is a great piece for this deck.
Can you explain the infinite piece, there?
Also good.
Some of these choices are limited by the cards I have, so my TOD is in a different list. I AM looking to revamp my list in the near future, so I'll take a serious look at this.
If anything, I would swap it for Armillary Sphere. Quest for the Goblin Lord is a really strong card in this deck. It turns on very quickly, frequently in the same turn it comes down.
I could see this card replacing something to get more goblins on the board.
You can definitely do it, but I'm not sure it's worth it in this deck. In the games I play, missing some piece I would want is rarely an issue except late game.
I typically play large multiplayer games with lots of artifacts, so Vandalblast just works better for me. It's a meta call.
I'm actually looking to get rid of them. The non-Krenko infinite combos have only ever come together once.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
Seems like it could offer some fun utility too with Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker as a potential wincon.
So, I've been thinking about this for a while, and I'm finally pulling the trigger. The more I diluted the essence of this deck, the less fun it was becoming to play. I've been adding things for the sake of combos, not because they necessarily work with the goblin theme or not.
So today's edits take Dominaria, Battlebond, and Core 2019's wealth of great cards and replaces some combo pieces that were taking up space, were essentially win-more, or were not that helpful and went against the core philosophy of the deck.
IN:Cheering Fanatic, Dark-Dweller Oracle, Goblin Instigator, Goblin Trashmaster, Helm of the Host
OUT: Combat Celebrant, Izzet Chemister, Zealous Conscripts, Splinter Twin, The Immortal Sun
Additions:
Cheering Fanatic is a fantastic curve card. Attacking with a Cheering Fanatic on Turn 3 means I can also cast Krenko.
Dark-Dweller Oracle is insane for this deck. I have no shortage of creatures to sacrifice and 'Impulse Drawing' helps filter through the deck. Because I keep my CMC relatively low, I should be able to cast almost anything I exile this way.
Goblin Instigator is just another Mogg War Marshal/Dragon Fodder. That's not a bad thing, as it lowers my curve again and provide two bodies.
Goblin Trashmaster is a repeatable Smelt. That's good.
Helm of the Host is just a great commander card, but being able to make non-legendary copies of Krenko, Kiki-Jiki, or Purphoros has obvious advantages.
Subtractions:
Zealous Conscripts and Splinter Twin are infinite combo pieces, but much harder to set-up than the ones that already exist for Krenko. The only reason I haven't cut Kiki-Jiki is that he's still very useful in this deck outside of infinite combos. These two are not, and sit dead in my hand unless I have one of the other pieces. That's obviously bad for a deck that emphasizes the early game.
Combat Celebrant is strong, it's true, and I would recommend including him in just about any aggro deck with red. In this case, though, I'm looking to cut out the non-goblin creatures for my 'back to basics' efforts.
Izzet Chemister doesn't really add the value I'd wanted from it in this deck. I might give it another go if I bring my number of instants and sorceries up.
The Immortal Sun was in her for late-game card draw, but Goblin Dark-Dweller is just so much better in this deck, and on curve, that I decided to replace it.
Note: I'm working on updating the Primer so you may not see these changes reflected for a few hours. 'Back to Basics' doesn't stop here, I'm going to be looking at moving back to a more goblin-centric deck overall, and hopefully getting the number of goblin creatures back up to 30ish.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath