Thought about it, but given the choice, I'd still stick with Grim Haruspex, which is actually removed in the coming iteration of the list. Has abomination run well for you?
This is actually a really curious version of Karador that I haven't seen before. I've been playing the basic Lark combo version since 2011(?) or so (my first real EDH deck), and most of the versions of the deck I've seen have diverged on whether it's more combo oriented, or combo control. Obviously, yours is much more combo oriented with one of the lowest curves I've seen. That said, if you are having card draw issues, I would evaluate the hate cards that you are running, and add some just straight value creatures and cards (not necessarily card draw cards, although those can be great as well) which may help with the card advantage problem. Stuff like Life from the loam, wood elves, and other cheap ramp cards that pull lands out of your deck which actually can help to improve draws in the later game (especially if they are being recurred multiple times). This deck definitely doesn't seem like a multiplayer deck at all if I'm honest though. It seems like a 1v1 deck (even if it can kill any number of players with its infinite combo).
The live version of the list that I've been testing on Cockatrice is mutated from the list posted on this thread (which I'll update soon, perhaps over the holidays). The CA is in better shape than I originally was thinking (variance). One angle that got beefed up is ramp which actually assists in CA since it allows Karador to come out early if needed.
Your comment about the list looking more like 1v1 than multiplayer is intriguing. What inclusions give you that feeling? The hatebears all provide symmetric effects. If I was to roll this as 1v1, I'd probably be running Mesmeric Fiend, Tidehollow Sculler, Sin Collector, and Brain Maggot.
Multiplayer commander tends to reward doing the biggest thing possible and ramp decks. People also tend to either have light disruption that is symmetrical rystic study/propoganda, type effects, or targeted removal (like STP, PTE, doomblade, beast within, pongify, counter spells). This means that being the fastest person can be dangerous, but also mean that if you run out of gas, or get disrupted, you can be left very far behind. Stuff like peacekeeper, kataki, thalia, can be good against certain decks, but literally stone dead against others. And in multiplayer games, while you may inconvenience 1 player, it may not affect anyone else, and costs you a turn/card doing something that doesn't progress your game plan very much. It's not like you are playing a prison deck here, so those cards may not help you that much.
Also, hushwing gryff turns off most of your own creatures which is a little surprising that you would run it.
Greater good is another sac outlet that will let you tear through your deck and find your pieces faster. Liliana of the veil is a good symmetrical discard spell if that's what you want. Sadistic Hypnotist is a great sac outlet as well as it can empty several players hands pretty quickly (even it its not instant speed, it can still be used to combo).
The design of this deck is with a fairly specific, highly competitive meta in mind. Your characterization of typical multiplayer play with ramp and doing big effects doesn't quite line up with what plays out in that group. The hatebear catalog in this list also reflects specific slots for dealing with that meta. You're right that sometimes the more specific answers, like Peacekeeper, can be a blank, but there is so much tutor capacity in the list that finding 'the right' answers isn't often difficult.
The comment about this not being a prison deck is interesting because the newer version in the works prioritizes shutting down opponent play before assembling the combo. Racing the tier one group isn't always profitable so new additions have been made to move more in a prison direction. The combo isn't any slower, but the game plan has shifted to only pull the trigger when opponents are sufficiently held up. I'm excited to share it once it's fully vetted.
I talk about Hushwing Gryff in the writeup. It will actually be replaced with Containment Priest, which people find even more shocking in a Karador list. The idea is that, in order to go off we need a sac outlet in play, so generally we get hate into place and then sac it when ready to go off.
Greater Good is only ok in this list because most of the creatures have low cmc. Thus it fills the yard nicely, but many times forces us to toss noncreatures that we'd rather have in our hand.
Sadistic Hypnotist was in the original version of the list, but got dropped because it's expensive and we're more interested in keeping hate on the table than recurring value ETBs.
I'm suuuuuuuper surprised to not see the Green Sun's Zenith + Dryad Arbor package. That goes in pretty much every green deck in the format. There's a player in my meta who plays your build and has included that and loves it. GSZ also finds Gaddock Teeg, which is super important in some matchups.
I'm not running Lotus Petal, Glowrider, or Thorn of Amethyst. I'd like to make room for Sylvan Tutor if possible. There's also Cruel Tutor and Grim Tutor, but they seem too expensive to me.
Does anyone have opinions on Chrome Mox, Mox Diamond? They seem less consistent to me with the new mulligan rule.
My mind's not made up on Bloom Tender. I regularly play against Derevi Prison, where it seems good unless they land a good stasis, but maybe Carpet of Flowers is all I need.
I initially wasn't running Sheoldred, but it's been reasonable in the games I've played. In my experience, people don't generally want to waste counterspells / removal on it or crack Tormod's Crypts / Relics if it's just bringing back value creatures. In other words, it generates a lot of value, but I doubt it'll help you combo as much as something like Sylvan Tutor.
So ia this deck still good after mulligan changes? Also cab it play well with Imperial Seal?
It still has it's power, but taking mulligans properly is key. Imperial Seal is a great tutor in a list like this: it solidifies early game plan and has almost no disadvantage when everybody is staxed out or operates under Gaddock Teeg. It's also cheap to play (mana-wise) so non creature spell taxes don't hurt it much.
My mind's not made up on Bloom Tender. I regularly play against Derevi Prison, where it seems good unless they land a good stasis, but maybe Carpet of Flowers is all I need.
Ha! I've yet to test CoF. It can be bonkers but it can also be a dead card.
I initially wasn't running Sheoldred, but it's been reasonable in the games I've played. In my experience, people don't generally want to waste counterspells / removal on it or crack Tormod's Crypts / Relics if it's just bringing back value creatures. In other words, it generates a lot of value, but I doubt it'll help you combo as much as something like Sylvan Tutor.
Well, the thing is the card is pretty bad in an opener, is slow, almost never does what you want (eg. people have fodder to sac or you become a GY removal target) and isn't too good a tutor target, to be honest. It enables effective lines but they're kind of Magical Christmas Land late game type, slow and telegraph your plans. I don't know.
Im testing out keattz list, since it looks like the most up-to-date one. Any suggestions or other lists I can look at or is his pretty standard? Also, I'm not sure I can afford an Imperial Seal at the moment I might try ro pick a Japanese one up for 350-375 sometime, but it wont be for a bit. I will be able to proxy it most of the time, but if I want to play in a tournament what should I put in its place?
Well, the thing is the card is pretty bad in an opener, is slow, almost never does what you want (eg. people have fodder to sac or you become a GY removal target) and isn't too good a tutor target, to be honest. It enables effective lines but they're kind of Magical Christmas Land late game type, slow and telegraph your plans. I don't know.
Eh, you could definitely be right, but I want to keep testing with it just to be sure. I think I'll go ahead and cut Bloom Tender for Sylvan Tutor, though.
Im testing out keattz list, since it looks like the most up-to-date one. Any suggestions or other lists I can look at or is his pretty standard? Also, I'm not sure I can afford an Imperial Seal at the moment I might try ro pick a Japanese one up for 350-375 sometime, but it wont be for a bit. I will be able to proxy it most of the time, but if I want to play in a tournament what should I put in its place?
haha, thanks man... my list is probably off by several cards, but I think most Boonweaver lists are 90% identical anyway so it's probably fine.
How about Heliod's Pilgrim then? Fetches both Pattern and Animate Dead, whatever you need at the moment to start a combo.
Heliod's Pilgrim would be the worst (most expensive + narrowest) tutor in my deck if I added it. I doubt it justifies a spot over any of the cards currently on the chopping block (GSZ, Sheoldred, Moxen).
What can I use in place of Imperial Seal? Dont have the funds for it..
If you're using my list, just run one of the cards in my maybeboard, depending on what you think might be good against what you expect to play against. I'd also give Cobblepott's lists (here and on tappedout) a good look and see if you like any of the differences.
Chances are high that Zulaport Cutthroat will replace Acidic Slime.
Why no replace Blood Artist?
The cutthroat doesn't target so it gets around those few times players have hexproof. Acidic Slime provides an alternate win-con (though I have never needed it... yet).
Also, once you get the combo going you don't need more than one of those 2 guys. The only real bad thing is if you have it in your hand and can't get it out but then you can get the combo off and recur Sidisi to get the 0 CMC rocks to play w/e you want.
I guess it could get exiled... but then anything could get exiled...
Btw if you even need infinite mana cycle 0 CMC rocks, blow them up with Rec sage, recur Eternal Witness, play them again, and so on.
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BTW I love your deck man. I have all of it except the duo lands, 2 rocks, and Imperial Seal.
Consistently wins on turn 3 or 4. My store hates it and it feels like playing stax because its always 3v1. I once switched the commander with Anafensa to avoid people targeting me early hahaha it was great!
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Green Sun's Zenith + Dryad Arbor doesn't seem that good in this deck, maybe I'm wrong though. Maybe swap one of them for Necromancy and something else?
Green Sun's Zenith + Dryad Arbor doesn't seem that good in this deck, maybe I'm wrong though. Maybe swap one of them for Necromancy and something else?
GSZ itself is pretty good: looks for DA for ramp and early game sac fodder, searches Gaddock Teeg if you need time, searches Fauna Shaman when you have no access to SotF, or looks up utility creatures (E.Wittness, RecSage etc.). This is a great, flexible card and I'm never sad to see it. DA looks like a throw in, but the ramp and sac fodder it provides aren't irrelevant (e.g. DA can substitute for a creature for Sac + Rector chain). It also makes Karador cheaper, when in GY. All in all these are good cards to run.
Most tutors cost 2 mana and get a creature to your hand (assuming you tutored for a creature). Then if its a 1 CMC creature you pay 1 more mana to play it, 3 mana total. As long as the creature is green, GSZ can do all that for 1 less mana. It is definitely a good include and there is the chance you'll draw it again.
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I've been liking GSZ so far, since it grabs Dryad Arbor (ramp), Birds (fixing), Teeg (hate), Saffi (half of infinite pair), and Qasali Pridemage (only answer to Torpor Orb!)
My friend (who plays Derevi) has been getting better at locking my board down with Torpor Orb + Linvala + Stony Silence. If this becomes too much of a problem I might start running Path to Exile or Nature's Claim or something.
I played a lot of games this weekend and was very impressed by Carpet of Flowers and the moxen. Sheoldred wasn't part of any of my victories, but he was stuck in my hand in several games. As such, I'm going to replace Sheoldred with Hokori. I have my eye on Grim Haruspex, I might cut it for Vryn Wingmare or something else.
Hokori is awesome when you need just a little more time. I'll be testing Carpet of Flowers next Thursday, but really don't know what to cut for it (Mox Diamond probably). I wouldn't cut Grim Haruspex, though, as he works nicely as a second Blood Artist/Zulaport Cutthroat because he can bring your whole deck to your hand and with Moxen and/or Mana Crypt you can follow up with Altar of Dementia and seal the game. I'm running Vryn Wingmare and think it's good to run it as redundancy is key in a deck like this.
Oh wow, I didn't think of that at all, that's awesome. Is your decklist posted somewhere?
Hokori is awesome when you need just a little more time. I'll be testing Carpet of Flowers next Thursday, but really don't know what to cut for it (Mox Diamond probably). I wouldn't cut Grim Haruspex, though, as he works nicely as a second Blood Artist/Zulaport Cutthroat because he can bring your whole deck to your hand and with Moxen and/or Mana Crypt you can follow up with Altar of Dementia and seal the game. I'm running Vryn Wingmare and think it's good to run it as redundancy is key in a deck like this.
Is there any reason you haven't swapped your Blood Artist for Zulaport Cutthroat yet keattz?
Blood Artist shuts down opposing Sharuum + Metamorph combos (and many other sacrifice-based combos). The decks I've been playing against do pack plenty of hate for my deck, but it's usually in the form of graveyard hate or creature hate. I haven't seen anyone give themselves hexproof yet. I assume getting around hexproof is Zulaport's main strength? Not like we're ever gonna get 40 but not infinite sacrifice triggers.
Is there any reason you haven't swapped your Blood Artist for Zulaport Cutthroat yet keattz?
Blood Artist shuts down opposing Sharuum + Metamorph combos (and many other sacrifice-based combos). The decks I've been playing against do pack plenty of hate for my deck, but it's usually in the form of graveyard hate or creature hate. I haven't seen anyone give themselves hexproof yet. I assume getting around hexproof is Zulaport's main strength? Not like we're ever gonna get 40 but not infinite sacrifice triggers.
I guess that make's sense. No one play's sac combos but me, so I didn't even think about it
-Dryad Arbor
-Sylvan Tutor
+Linvala, Keeper of Silence
+Weathered Wayfarer
I'm at 34 lands now. I wanted to cut a land for Weathered Wayfarer, and it was between Dryad Arbor and a checkland (maybe Woodland Cemetery, not sure). Despite running GSZ, I decided to cut Dryad Arbor. Every time I turn 1 GSZ'd for Dryad Arbor I ended up regretting it. The extra green doesn't matter, the ramp isn't even often that relevant, and I'd just rather have Teeg or another way to get Qasali Pridemage to fight through the hate.
I also threw in Linvala as a way to deal with Sisay, Yisan, and Tasigur (sometimes).
Thought about it, but given the choice, I'd still stick with Grim Haruspex, which is actually removed in the coming iteration of the list. Has abomination run well for you?
The live version of the list that I've been testing on Cockatrice is mutated from the list posted on this thread (which I'll update soon, perhaps over the holidays). The CA is in better shape than I originally was thinking (variance). One angle that got beefed up is ramp which actually assists in CA since it allows Karador to come out early if needed.
Your comment about the list looking more like 1v1 than multiplayer is intriguing. What inclusions give you that feeling? The hatebears all provide symmetric effects. If I was to roll this as 1v1, I'd probably be running Mesmeric Fiend, Tidehollow Sculler, Sin Collector, and Brain Maggot.
The design of this deck is with a fairly specific, highly competitive meta in mind. Your characterization of typical multiplayer play with ramp and doing big effects doesn't quite line up with what plays out in that group. The hatebear catalog in this list also reflects specific slots for dealing with that meta. You're right that sometimes the more specific answers, like Peacekeeper, can be a blank, but there is so much tutor capacity in the list that finding 'the right' answers isn't often difficult.
The comment about this not being a prison deck is interesting because the newer version in the works prioritizes shutting down opponent play before assembling the combo. Racing the tier one group isn't always profitable so new additions have been made to move more in a prison direction. The combo isn't any slower, but the game plan has shifted to only pull the trigger when opponents are sufficiently held up. I'm excited to share it once it's fully vetted.
I talk about Hushwing Gryff in the writeup. It will actually be replaced with Containment Priest, which people find even more shocking in a Karador list. The idea is that, in order to go off we need a sac outlet in play, so generally we get hate into place and then sac it when ready to go off.
Greater Good is only ok in this list because most of the creatures have low cmc. Thus it fills the yard nicely, but many times forces us to toss noncreatures that we'd rather have in our hand.
Sadistic Hypnotist was in the original version of the list, but got dropped because it's expensive and we're more interested in keeping hate on the table than recurring value ETBs.
Jarad Graveyard Combo[Primer]!
Sidisi ANT!
Playing Commander to Win - A guide on Competitive, 4-player EDH
LandDestruction.com - An EDH blog
Playtesting | Karador, Ghost Chieftain | Narset, Enlightened Master | Ephara, God of the Polis
Established | Gahiji, Honored One | Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker | Opal-Eye, Konda's Yojimbo | Rubinia Soulsinger
Retired | Medomai the Ageless | Diaochan, Artful Beauty
I'm not running Lotus Petal, Glowrider, or Thorn of Amethyst. I'd like to make room for Sylvan Tutor if possible. There's also Cruel Tutor and Grim Tutor, but they seem too expensive to me.
Does anyone have opinions on Chrome Mox, Mox Diamond? They seem less consistent to me with the new mulligan rule.
Modern
UWGB 4c Snow Control BGWU
I initially wasn't running Sheoldred, but it's been reasonable in the games I've played. In my experience, people don't generally want to waste counterspells / removal on it or crack Tormod's Crypts / Relics if it's just bringing back value creatures. In other words, it generates a lot of value, but I doubt it'll help you combo as much as something like Sylvan Tutor.
Im testing out keattz list, since it looks like the most up-to-date one. Any suggestions or other lists I can look at or is his pretty standard? Also, I'm not sure I can afford an Imperial Seal at the moment I might try ro pick a Japanese one up for 350-375 sometime, but it wont be for a bit. I will be able to proxy it most of the time, but if I want to play in a tournament what should I put in its place?
Modern
UWGB 4c Snow Control BGWU
Eh, you could definitely be right, but I want to keep testing with it just to be sure. I think I'll go ahead and cut Bloom Tender for Sylvan Tutor, though.
haha, thanks man... my list is probably off by several cards, but I think most Boonweaver lists are 90% identical anyway so it's probably fine.
Heliod's Pilgrim would be the worst (most expensive + narrowest) tutor in my deck if I added it. I doubt it justifies a spot over any of the cards currently on the chopping block (GSZ, Sheoldred, Moxen).
Modern
UWGB 4c Snow Control BGWU
If you're using my list, just run one of the cards in my maybeboard, depending on what you think might be good against what you expect to play against. I'd also give Cobblepott's lists (here and on tappedout) a good look and see if you like any of the differences.
Why no replace Blood Artist?
The cutthroat doesn't target so it gets around those few times players have hexproof. Acidic Slime provides an alternate win-con (though I have never needed it... yet).
Also, once you get the combo going you don't need more than one of those 2 guys. The only real bad thing is if you have it in your hand and can't get it out but then you can get the combo off and recur Sidisi to get the 0 CMC rocks to play w/e you want.
I guess it could get exiled... but then anything could get exiled...
Btw if you even need infinite mana cycle 0 CMC rocks, blow them up with Rec sage, recur Eternal Witness, play them again, and so on.
GWUDerevi, Empyrial TaPticianGWU
BGWKarador, Ghost ChieftainBGW
UGMomir Vig, Simic VisionaryUG
Consistently wins on turn 3 or 4. My store hates it and it feels like playing stax because its always 3v1. I once switched the commander with Anafensa to avoid people targeting me early hahaha it was great!
GWUDerevi, Empyrial TaPticianGWU
BGWKarador, Ghost ChieftainBGW
UGMomir Vig, Simic VisionaryUG
Modern
UWGB 4c Snow Control BGWU
Most tutors cost 2 mana and get a creature to your hand (assuming you tutored for a creature). Then if its a 1 CMC creature you pay 1 more mana to play it, 3 mana total. As long as the creature is green, GSZ can do all that for 1 less mana. It is definitely a good include and there is the chance you'll draw it again.
GWUDerevi, Empyrial TaPticianGWU
BGWKarador, Ghost ChieftainBGW
UGMomir Vig, Simic VisionaryUG
My friend (who plays Derevi) has been getting better at locking my board down with Torpor Orb + Linvala + Stony Silence. If this becomes too much of a problem I might start running Path to Exile or Nature's Claim or something.
I played a lot of games this weekend and was very impressed by Carpet of Flowers and the moxen. Sheoldred wasn't part of any of my victories, but he was stuck in my hand in several games. As such, I'm going to replace Sheoldred with Hokori. I have my eye on Grim Haruspex, I might cut it for Vryn Wingmare or something else.
Oh wow, I didn't think of that at all, that's awesome. Is your decklist posted somewhere?
Link or reference?
GWUDerevi, Empyrial TaPticianGWU
BGWKarador, Ghost ChieftainBGW
UGMomir Vig, Simic VisionaryUG
I would also like to see your decklist.
Modern
UWGB 4c Snow Control BGWU
Pretty similar. Just a few different lands and what not.
Is there any reason you haven't swapped your Blood Artist for Zulaport Cutthroat yet keattz?
Modern
UWGB 4c Snow Control BGWU
Blood Artist shuts down opposing Sharuum + Metamorph combos (and many other sacrifice-based combos). The decks I've been playing against do pack plenty of hate for my deck, but it's usually in the form of graveyard hate or creature hate. I haven't seen anyone give themselves hexproof yet. I assume getting around hexproof is Zulaport's main strength? Not like we're ever gonna get 40 but not infinite sacrifice triggers.
I guess that make's sense. No one play's sac combos but me, so I didn't even think about it
Modern
UWGB 4c Snow Control BGWU
I'm at 34 lands now. I wanted to cut a land for Weathered Wayfarer, and it was between Dryad Arbor and a checkland (maybe Woodland Cemetery, not sure). Despite running GSZ, I decided to cut Dryad Arbor. Every time I turn 1 GSZ'd for Dryad Arbor I ended up regretting it. The extra green doesn't matter, the ramp isn't even often that relevant, and I'd just rather have Teeg or another way to get Qasali Pridemage to fight through the hate.
I also threw in Linvala as a way to deal with Sisay, Yisan, and Tasigur (sometimes).