I love this deck! I will try it as soon as I can and give you my opinions! ("as soon as I can" might be in 2 months, very busy days unfortunately)
I think it will be a really nice deck, I just started assembling it so I will be able to give you a feedback within 2 months for sure.
The challenge of a totally creatureless deck is fun, and I think white is the best color for enchantments (followed by green). Heliod is a good general (although he's really underwhelming in the 99, I think he does well in the Command zone when the deck is built around it. The deck still can work without him, but having him generating enchantments at instant speed is really great.
I added Smokestack, I don't play a whole stax package but I think this card really stands out with Heliod and is oppressive enough by itself without any further support. I will explain the other additions/omissions later tonight.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
I'm interested to see how this decks works out for you. I've done creatureless enchantments before but never in a mono color. I like the idea behind it and I love self-imposing restrictions on deck building to fuel creativity. On initial looks, it seems like the deck might be too passive and durddly to survive. I could be wrong, though, but I think adding in more of the cards in your sideboard might be the way to go. Secure the Wastes, White Sun's Zenith, and Martial Coup can do a lot of work for you especially with your methods of board control. If you find your board control quick and superior, you may look into adding Celestial Convergence as a wincon. I look forward to seeing how it plays.
I'm interested to see how this decks works out for you. I've done creatureless enchantments before but never in a mono color. I like the idea behind it and I love self-imposing restrictions on deck building to fuel creativity. On initial looks, it seems like the deck might be too passive and durddly to survive. I could be wrong, though, but I think adding in more of the cards in your sideboard might be the way to go. Secure the Wastes, White Sun's Zenith, and Martial Coup can do a lot of work for you especially with your methods of board control. If you find your board control quick and superior, you may look into adding Celestial Convergence as a wincon. I look forward to seeing how it plays.
I personally think the deck has some real potential. After this deck, I will have 5 mono-colored EDH deck. I can say I'm well aware of the color pie in Magic after doing that.
Passive? Yeah, this is an enchantment deck, and like every enchantment deck, it has some kind of prison feeling to go with it. That doesn't mean it can't win. I just need what I will call an "Heliod engine" going, whether it's Skybind+Sanctum or just a big Nykthos. Island Sanctuary needs to be dealt with at some point too.
Now, about the instant/sorcery speed token generator, they are all in the sideboard since I don't know if I want them. If I want one, I probably want all of them. Entreat the Angels is probably the better card now that I added Scrollrack (which will be my main early tutor target probably, to get going) and a couple of instant speed draws (Mind's Eye, Seer's Sundial with fetch lands). Crucible of Worlds look interesting too. Ghost Quarter will be here for the land disruption package, because it works really well with Flagstone of Trokair to thin my deck if I have Crucible into play. I also added Helm of Possession, because the card is just really good.
Celestial Convergence: I saw that card, but I don't have a lot of life gain right now. If I had, Test of Endurance would probably be there, but I don't see how it could work right now.
Divine Intervention: yeah, why not... if I can't win, let's draw and start over! I think it gives a different political aspect from what I'm playing in my other decks. Having the possibility to just draw the game in 2 turns is good with me. I can protect it with Greater Auramancy (which protects Heliod's tokens too, BUT shroud also means no Skullclamp, so I need to be careful with that).
Wrath of God is here for flavor reasons right now but I might remove it. Or Austere Command, because I probably don't want to use the enchantment/artifact modes ever. This will need some more thinking.
Leonin Sun Standard could be interesting too, although I don't like the fact that it's not an enchantment and I'm probably better spending my mana every turn to generate more tokens.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
So, RIP and Stony removed to give more room for artifacts. Relic of Progenitus takes place as graveyard hate instead. Opalescence is out because it kills Heliod's tokens. Skullclamp can't equip Heliod's tokens if Greater Auramancy is on the battlefield, but I have a couple of other token generators too that will work.
A lot of land sac effects. I decided on Dust Bowl instead of Ghost Quarter for obvious reasons here. Land sac works great with Crucible of Worlds, and this card works great with fetch lands. Land Tax, Tithe and Gift of Estates all like the fact that I will usually have less lands than my opponents. Oath of Lieges love that too. Scroll Rack loves Land Tax or any form of card advantage, and I play plenty. Since I play fetch lands, Seer's Sundial works great here too.
I don't think Gideon will make the final cut but he's here for now. The 2 Elspeths are good at generating tokens. Wrath of God could also be replaced and Austere Command is ackward considering I'm the one running artifacts/enchantments, so there could be replaced too, meaning that the list can be improved and isn't 100% tight yet. I might want to play more enchantments instead of these.
Only one aura, one of the best IMO: Darksteel Mutation. A couple of enchantments could probably be improved, for example Karmic Justice. Martyr's Bond is obviously better since it does act as a Grave Pact but also triggers with Smokestack. Speaking of Smokestack, if I have any token engine online (+2 tokens per turn), this card is a huge win condition. 2 counters on Smokestack is really oppressive. Oblation is one of the most versatile card in mono-white, and I can target a token if I really need to draw 2 cards quickly. Gauntlet/Cage Sun act as emblem effects and mana doublers. Council's Judgment is close to Oblation, only lacking instant speed, but it's even better since this card doesn't target. Terminus is good with instant speed draw and Scroll Rack (Mind's Eye, Seer's Sundial + fetch land).
Heliod engines: Cathars' Crusade, Skybind, Skullclamp. Also, try to kill me with Martyr's Cause active. Equipoise is a weird card but in a 4 player game, you can target the opponent seated at your right (you don't actually target his pemanents, only the player, read the errated Oracle for more info on this), and he will "lose" a couple of lands, artifacts and creatures until his untap step. So it's not oppressive or anything, the cards come back before untap, no summoning sickness problem here, BUT... it gets rid of blockers and any open mana left by the control player temporarily, and I think this effect is greatly underestimated, especially in a deck where I tend to have less lands and less artifacts than my opponents (and creatures until I get an engine going). This is an old card, it's doing something good, and it's using a keyword that people don't know anymore for the most part. I love it.
Citadel Siege can stop attackers or boost my creatures better than Martial Law for now. Delaying Shield stops Infect, commander damage, Sword of X and Y triggers (or any other combat damage trigger)... and can be destroyed before by next upkeep with Aura of Silence, Seal of Cleansing or Act of Authority if the triggers are correctly stacked during the upkeep (since Delaying Shield wouldn't be here anymore on resolution, no counters are removed though his ability, so no life loss, and we get to keep Act of Authority since IM the controller of Delaying Shield). A good card overall. Parallax Wave, even without Opalescence combos, is good by itself at exiling opponents' Commanders (they will usually command zone it, since 3-4 turns before getting it back can be really long). It gets rid of blockers temporarily too or just exile tokens permanently. Soul Snare is better than Swords to Plowshares in this deck because it dissuades attacking without you having to actually waste the exile effect on anything. It makes opponents attack each others. Myth Realized can be a win condition by itself too, since it can get really big. Endless Horizons is here to exile no more than 4-5 Plains in my opinion. We need to use this as a worse Phyrexian Arena, because if it looks better, it will get destroyed.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
I don't know what to say about Land Tax and friends. I mean, yeah, mana ramp... but still. You don't really have many land sacs(actually 1, perhaps I missed some), so it feels like they'll become dead cards swiftly. Oath of Lieges can be devastating to you if you can't control it. Especially against multicolored decks. In fact, if I were to see it on the battlefield I'd be tempted to skip my next land drop just to fix my colors. Equipoise just wrecks both cards. Perhaps there's something I'm missing.
I'd like to point out that White Sun Zenith does give you a shuffle, which can be useful for your Scroll Rack.
I don't know what to say about Land Tax and friends. I mean, yeah, mana ramp... but still. You don't really have many land sacs(actually 1, perhaps I missed some), so it feels like they'll become dead cards swiftly. Oath of Lieges can be devastating to you if you can't control it. Especially against multicolored decks. In fact, if I were to see it on the battlefield I'd be tempted to skip my next land drop just to fix my colors. Equipoise just wrecks both cards. Perhaps there's something I'm missing.
I'd like to point out that White Sun Zenith does give you a shuffle, which can be useful for your Scroll Rack.
Let's count!
Dust Bowl
Karoo
Kjeldoran Post
Scorched Ruins
Skybind
Smokestack
Tithe also works with the 4 fetch lands since it is instant speed.
Also, I don't know if you ever played Land Tax (seems unlikely) but in multiplayer, players ramp like crazy. Even without all the support I currently play for these cards, it will always be better than playing a land instead. Tithe always works, it gets Mistveil Plains in worst case scenario. I played a mono-white deck before with absolutely no way to actually sac lands, and all these cards were still the best way to get card advantage. Land Tax already works if you are not the starting player, so it works 75% of the time without any help. Mono-W doesn't have Blue Sun's Zenith...
On shuffle effects...
4 fetch lands (+ Crucible)
Land Tax
Tithe
Gift of Estates
Enlightened Tutor
Expedition Map
Idyllic Tutor
Plea for Guidance
Oath of Lieges
Flagstone of Trokair (with some help)
That's 13 cards (I don't count Crucible) out of 99 and since you are talking specifically about when Scroll Rack is out, it's 13 out 98. Scroll Rack is only relevant when I have 4+ cards in my hand (IMO, I wouldn't use it with less than that, and Heliod definitely makes it possible to just sit here, make tokens and not play anything). With 4 cards (worst case scenario IMO), I dig 8 cards deep in the deck. If I can't get one of my 13 shuffle effects, I'm just unlucky at that point.
Some maths... not considering the 7 first cards I've got, outs already drawn, etc... 98 total random cards, 13 outs, 8 cards deep: http://stattrek.com/online-calculator/hypergeometric.aspx
That's 69.24% chances of drawing 1 of 13 outs in a 98 card deck if I go 8 cards deep.
Or if you prefer...
(98!/90! - 85!/77!) / (98!/90!) = 0.69418823713
I will take nearly 70% anytime. Odds are obviously better of drawing a shuffle effect than any of the 6 cards listed above to sac/exile my own lands. Still, I have 36.36% chances of having one of 6 outs in my opening hand (7 cards) not calculating mulligans (with Paris mulligans, you can see on average 10 cards instead of 7 maybe, so that would be 48.14% but it also depends on your decisions at that point). And, another good thing about Land Tax... the BEST way to trigger it in multiplayer if you are the starting player: just skip a land drop on turn 5-6, when you are already able to play one spell per turn anyway. You could also decline to start the game, but I won't do that. I'll still take that 75% of the times where I'm not the starting player, which means at least one opponent has one more land in play on my upkeep if he didn't miss any land drop.
One last note about my opponents skipping land drops and Equipoise: if any opponent skips a land drop, we can play this game for a long time, because Heliod only needs 4 mana and can go forever. But still, in a 4-player game, I highly doubt that my 3 opponents will do that, and if they do, well... mission accomplished Land Tax! About Equipoise it doesn't wreck anything, you are wrong on that: you can stack the triggers in the right order so that Equipoise resolves after Land Tax and you are totally fine. And having 3 opponents will usually make it work, since you can target an opponent with less lands than you anyway if only one opponent has more and you want to main phase Gift of Estates.
So yeah, unless there is something I'm missing about Equipoise, I don't see how it wrecks Land Tax and friends???
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Fair enough, I retract my statement. I haven't gotten my mono white EDH deck built, so I haven't even considered playing any of them. When I was counting land sacs, I was counting reusable ones (and I missed smokestack). But your right, the non reusable ones are more than helpful.
As far as Equipoise I hadn't even considered ordering the triggers, for some reason it never crossed my mine.
Of course White Sun Zenith's shuffle effect doesn't make it the best token generator, but it is something to consider when/if you start adding them.
Depending on how fast Land Tax & Co. do their jobs, you might consider adding land sac effects. It'll help you bring your land count down(Which I now realize isn't really necessary), and get some misc useful effect. Sunstone is great for this. Zuran Orb is quite good too. Solar Tide can make for a more versatile Wrath of God, especially with tokens.
On the other hand, cards like Claws of Gix might be considered better, again especially with tokens.
Fair enough, I retract my statement. I haven't gotten my mono white EDH deck built, so I haven't even considered playing any of them. When I was counting land sacs, I was counting reusable ones (and I missed smokestack). But your right, the non reusable ones are more than helpful.
As far as Equipoise I hadn't even considered ordering the triggers, for some reason it never crossed my mine.
Of course White Sun Zenith's shuffle effect doesn't make it the best token generator, but it is something to consider when/if you start adding them.
Depending on how fast Land Tax & Co. do their jobs, you might consider adding land sac effects. It'll help you bring your land count down(Which I now realize isn't really necessary), and get some misc useful effect. Sunstone is great for this. Zuran Orb is quite good too. Solar Tide can make for a more versatile Wrath of God, especially with tokens.
On the other hand, cards like Claws of Gix might be considered better, again especially with tokens.
White Sun's Zenith isn't a bad card, it's a card I was considering, but the more I think about it, the more I think that Heliod is great at generating tokens. It's repeatable, WSZ isn't (I don't consider shuffling the spell back makes it repeatable). I'm better with Sacred Mesa, Mobilization and the 2 Elspeths, that's my conclusion for now. So no plan for Secure the Wastes either, not right now.
As for land sac, I don't really need more land sac, really. I already have plenty, I have Crucible but it's 1 card out of 99 in the deck, so I don't want to abuse this either. Yes, Sunstone is a great card but I have better cards to protect me right, Martyr's Cause is just an example.
Claws of Gix is an awesome card and I definitely recommend it to people going for a more stax version of Heliod. Right now, the only stax card I'm planning to play is Smokestack, and it's because the card is that good all by itself, it doesn't need any extra support besides Heliod. Heliod can definitely be a good stax general, but I don't want to go the full stax route. Hokori, Dust Drinker would also be a good general for that kind of deck.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Thoughts about Crescendo of War? Works with ALL attacking creatures, but only MY blocking creatures. It's a weird card overall, it works great with trample (which I don't play) and tokens (which I play a ton). It can certainly help accelerate the game a little bit...
Parallax Wave isn't as good without Opalescence, it's not something I want to play on turn 4 for example... that makes me wonder if I should add back Opalescence despite the anti-synergy with Heliod's tokens, or if I should completely remove Parallax Wave. Plea for Guidance gets both cards at the same, which is definitely awesome, and it works as an alternate wincondition if I have enough enchantments already on the battlefield and can attack with everything (just need to be careful with that). I think I need to play Opalescence, I really do.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Oblation vs Unexpectedly Absent: both target nonland permanents, the lattest work for 2 mana if my opponent has to shuffle his deck for some reasons but can be good too for 5-6 mana, knowing which turn he will draw the same threat again.
On Oblation, I fear I will end up using the card more than anything on my own tokens to draw 2 cards. This can be good with Terminus, but I'm not sure it's the point to play such a card.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
I'm so excited right now, seriously. Recursion every turn? Well, no need for Opalescence, this will work, even if it kills Heliod's tokens, it is so strong.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
This and Skybind foil would be awesome, from a mere esthetic point of view!
Well, foil or not, this thing is completely broken with so many cards in the deck. Who needs Sun Titan? Just bring back Aura of Silence or Soul Snare every turn.
Also, the fact that the Opalescence clause is conditional adds a lot of versatility. With Parallax Wave, it's just amazing, I get to exile everything, but if someone plays Wrath of God, I can just exile a couple of my own enchantments to end the effect. Wow.
One of the best card in the deck. Who knew? It kills Heliod's token if I don't have an emblem, but even if the tokens die as a state-based action, they trigger Skybind and Martyr's Bond.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Seriously, is this real? This is crazy. I must get every card for this deck before they release this in July.
Also, I'm really near getting to the final list, I'm at 102 cards right now (including Opalescence, which will be replaced by this new awesomeness). Couple of cuts and I will post it. Divine Intervention won't make it, I think the deck has (finally) plenty of ways to win.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
DECKLIST UPDATED with what should be the final list.
Some enchantments might be swapped after playtest, I will see. Mostly, I have both Righteous Aura and Martyr's Cause that serve a similar purpose, also I'm not sure how good Citadel Siege is, and if I can manage Crescendo of War. All that fine tuning will be possible when I'm done assembling the deck.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Someone mentionned that Dictate of Heliod is a 7/7 flash creature for 5 with Starfield of Nyx on the field. It's good... but just think of Crescendo of War and 2 full turns of a 4-player game (8 counters). Citadel Siege first mode suddently got better too, a 4/4 for 4 and you put 2 counters on it every turn.
Also, some ruling knowledge is necessary with Opalescence effects and Gods: if any God enters the battlefield BEFORE the Opalescence effect, it will be a creature with P/T=CMC. If the God enters the battlefield after, then the devotion static ability will apply since the timestamp is younger, which means it won't be a creature if devotion criteria isn't met, while it will be a creature if we have devotion (with P/T=CMC though, and it loses the God subtype).
I don't plan on playing Humility since it's banned for 1v1 and my playgroup uses both banlists, but I will also take a look at that interaction just in case I play in another playgroup and someone plays Humility.
It will be important to be really careful when playing Starfield of Nyx anyway. If I can control the number of enchantments, it's perfect. If not, I need to watch for Wrath of God effects.
Some extra notes about cards I thought about not playing: Righteous Aura: Martyr's Cause is often better, but this thing costs 2 and doesn't need Heliod or anything, it just works and doesn't target. Citadel Siege: looks weaker than Cathars' Crusade as far as the 1st mode goes, but we have versatility, better CMC, it should stick longer and it can boost Heliod faster to do 21 damage quickly (exactly 3 swings if 5+7+9). Mystic Barrier: it doesn't work at the end of the game or when I play 1v1, but when it works, it's one of the best protection card we have. Politics is fun too. Exclusion Ritual: expansive Council's Judgment but tutorable and recurrable. Also, it counts as an enchantment, and it will probably be never destroyed. If it is, we get to reuse it, and if not, Sphere of Safety, Serra's Sanctum and Starfield of Nyx are all happy.
If they print better enchantments that don't have a similar function of one I already play, I might remove one of these.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
I think you should play opalescence AND starfield of nix. Because yes, you lose your tokens. But you lose your 2/1 token for 5/5, 4/4 and 3/3! This is your principal wincon. And if you have 2 card that make you win, then play both.
I agree, I think I will play both Opalescence and Starfield.
I did a couple of game yesterday and the deck performed greatly, even if I lost both games. (Avacyn in a Kaalia deck made it unstoppable).
I am doing some changes, mostly due to the meta of my playgroup. Thinking of removing the Cathar's Crusade and put some more protection, since most of my friends' decks are really aggressive and I do not want to be targeted!
I think you should play opalescence AND starfield of nix. Because yes, you lose your tokens. But you lose your 2/1 token for 5/5, 4/4 and 3/3! This is your principal wincon. And if you have 2 card that make you win, then play both.
Yeah well, there is a good density of tutoring involved in the deck (I almost count Scroll Rack in that group since we get to see more and more cards from the deck) so I tend to avoid playing the same functional card (I cut Kismet, because Blind Obedience will do). Also, Starfield of Nyx is a better card to me. There were problems with Opalescence. I wouldn't call it the main win condition. Heliod is the main win condition. Produce tokens, play an enabler, and win. Whether it's Cathars' Crusade or Crescendo of War or just attacking with a bunch of tokens. To win against Avacyn or Khalia, we need to play politics, we don't have Master of Cruelty killing a player on turn 4 (I wouldn't like to play that sort of deck).
What I meant to say is that it's a risky plan. With Starfield to Nyx, you have options. With Opalescence, you don't. You lose your whole board to Toxic Deluge. Mono-black can't deal with enchantments. But with creatures... they have the best EDH spell ever printed for that.
Plan A is to build some sort of defense/prison and win with Heliod. Plan B could involve Starfield to Nyx. Plan C is Smokestack. Plan D is Replenish for the win.
Starfield to Nyx does combo with Parallax Wave, but it only exiles creatures and enchantments and protect our own. It's not an instant win, it's basically a one-sided Final Judgment that works against enchantments too. Then your opponent can proceed to destroy Starfield and the game continues.
Having 2 Opalescence on the field makes each others a creature. This is good with Parallax Wave. But it's a pretty dangerous game too. Don't forget that Replenish doesn't give you the choice about what you return.
I will need to play test to really consider both. You guys are fast, I posted a list and you just built it? That's really fun. I have about half the deck done right now, I will need to find the fetch lands and Crucible and should be ready before Origins is released.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Well Friday my deck was full proxy and 23 plains, Now is half proxy with 20 card waiting for me in the mail!
It is growing to be quite different from yours, much more of a pillowfort deck, but your "inspiration" is strong in the deck!
My other main deck is the Lin Sivvi pillowfort, my playgroup hates me now, but I have a lot of fun!
As soon as I define my whole list I will post it, anyway!
Excellent! Do you play any creature?
I always wanted to build a deck with no creature and laugh when entering a new playgroup and getting targetted by Bribery in the hope of finding Avacyn or Elesh Norn and then nothing...
I like different ideas. Academy Rector would be totally solid in this deck. But... I like doing something different.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
My creed when I build a deck is "Flavour over efficiency", I prefer a slightly wekaer deck but that respect the theme of the deck, therefore I will never add creatures to this deck!
Also, I always loved "extreme" decks, with many lands or no land at all, so a Creatureless deck (in white) is amazing to me!
Leonin Sun Standard could be interesting too, although I don't like the fact that it's not an enchantment and I'm probably better spending my mana every turn to generate more tokens.
you also have the option of using gerrard's battle cry it is an enchantment with a similar though overall weaker effect but if you want to multiply the effectiveness of your tokens for an alpha strike with an enchantment this is one way to do it
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I love this deck! I will try it as soon as I can and give you my opinions! ("as soon as I can" might be in 2 months, very busy days unfortunately)
I think it will be a really nice deck, I just started assembling it so I will be able to give you a feedback within 2 months for sure.
The challenge of a totally creatureless deck is fun, and I think white is the best color for enchantments (followed by green). Heliod is a good general (although he's really underwhelming in the 99, I think he does well in the Command zone when the deck is built around it. The deck still can work without him, but having him generating enchantments at instant speed is really great.
I added Smokestack, I don't play a whole stax package but I think this card really stands out with Heliod and is oppressive enough by itself without any further support. I will explain the other additions/omissions later tonight.
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Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
P.S. I fully support anyone that plays Divine Intervention!
I personally think the deck has some real potential. After this deck, I will have 5 mono-colored EDH deck. I can say I'm well aware of the color pie in Magic after doing that.
Passive? Yeah, this is an enchantment deck, and like every enchantment deck, it has some kind of prison feeling to go with it. That doesn't mean it can't win. I just need what I will call an "Heliod engine" going, whether it's Skybind+Sanctum or just a big Nykthos. Island Sanctuary needs to be dealt with at some point too.
Now, about the instant/sorcery speed token generator, they are all in the sideboard since I don't know if I want them. If I want one, I probably want all of them. Entreat the Angels is probably the better card now that I added Scrollrack (which will be my main early tutor target probably, to get going) and a couple of instant speed draws (Mind's Eye, Seer's Sundial with fetch lands). Crucible of Worlds look interesting too. Ghost Quarter will be here for the land disruption package, because it works really well with Flagstone of Trokair to thin my deck if I have Crucible into play. I also added Helm of Possession, because the card is just really good.
Spear of Heliod: is the activated ability worth it over say Honor of the Pure and Divine Sacrament?
Celestial Convergence: I saw that card, but I don't have a lot of life gain right now. If I had, Test of Endurance would probably be there, but I don't see how it could work right now.
Divine Intervention: yeah, why not... if I can't win, let's draw and start over! I think it gives a different political aspect from what I'm playing in my other decks. Having the possibility to just draw the game in 2 turns is good with me. I can protect it with Greater Auramancy (which protects Heliod's tokens too, BUT shroud also means no Skullclamp, so I need to be careful with that).
Wrath of God is here for flavor reasons right now but I might remove it. Or Austere Command, because I probably don't want to use the enchantment/artifact modes ever. This will need some more thinking.
Leonin Sun Standard could be interesting too, although I don't like the fact that it's not an enchantment and I'm probably better spending my mana every turn to generate more tokens.
Petrified Field removed, because you know, Crucible of Worlds got me covered.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Considered: Spear of Heliod, Honor of the Pure, Divine Sacrement, Martial Law, Martial Coup, Entreat the Angels, Secure the Wastes, White Sun's Zenith
So, RIP and Stony removed to give more room for artifacts. Relic of Progenitus takes place as graveyard hate instead. Opalescence is out because it kills Heliod's tokens. Skullclamp can't equip Heliod's tokens if Greater Auramancy is on the battlefield, but I have a couple of other token generators too that will work.
A lot of land sac effects. I decided on Dust Bowl instead of Ghost Quarter for obvious reasons here. Land sac works great with Crucible of Worlds, and this card works great with fetch lands. Land Tax, Tithe and Gift of Estates all like the fact that I will usually have less lands than my opponents. Oath of Lieges love that too. Scroll Rack loves Land Tax or any form of card advantage, and I play plenty. Since I play fetch lands, Seer's Sundial works great here too.
I don't think Gideon will make the final cut but he's here for now. The 2 Elspeths are good at generating tokens. Wrath of God could also be replaced and Austere Command is ackward considering I'm the one running artifacts/enchantments, so there could be replaced too, meaning that the list can be improved and isn't 100% tight yet. I might want to play more enchantments instead of these.
Only one aura, one of the best IMO: Darksteel Mutation. A couple of enchantments could probably be improved, for example Karmic Justice. Martyr's Bond is obviously better since it does act as a Grave Pact but also triggers with Smokestack. Speaking of Smokestack, if I have any token engine online (+2 tokens per turn), this card is a huge win condition. 2 counters on Smokestack is really oppressive. Oblation is one of the most versatile card in mono-white, and I can target a token if I really need to draw 2 cards quickly. Gauntlet/Cage Sun act as emblem effects and mana doublers. Council's Judgment is close to Oblation, only lacking instant speed, but it's even better since this card doesn't target. Terminus is good with instant speed draw and Scroll Rack (Mind's Eye, Seer's Sundial + fetch land).
Heliod engines: Cathars' Crusade, Skybind, Skullclamp. Also, try to kill me with Martyr's Cause active. Equipoise is a weird card but in a 4 player game, you can target the opponent seated at your right (you don't actually target his pemanents, only the player, read the errated Oracle for more info on this), and he will "lose" a couple of lands, artifacts and creatures until his untap step. So it's not oppressive or anything, the cards come back before untap, no summoning sickness problem here, BUT... it gets rid of blockers and any open mana left by the control player temporarily, and I think this effect is greatly underestimated, especially in a deck where I tend to have less lands and less artifacts than my opponents (and creatures until I get an engine going). This is an old card, it's doing something good, and it's using a keyword that people don't know anymore for the most part. I love it.
Citadel Siege can stop attackers or boost my creatures better than Martial Law for now. Delaying Shield stops Infect, commander damage, Sword of X and Y triggers (or any other combat damage trigger)... and can be destroyed before by next upkeep with Aura of Silence, Seal of Cleansing or Act of Authority if the triggers are correctly stacked during the upkeep (since Delaying Shield wouldn't be here anymore on resolution, no counters are removed though his ability, so no life loss, and we get to keep Act of Authority since IM the controller of Delaying Shield). A good card overall. Parallax Wave, even without Opalescence combos, is good by itself at exiling opponents' Commanders (they will usually command zone it, since 3-4 turns before getting it back can be really long). It gets rid of blockers temporarily too or just exile tokens permanently. Soul Snare is better than Swords to Plowshares in this deck because it dissuades attacking without you having to actually waste the exile effect on anything. It makes opponents attack each others. Myth Realized can be a win condition by itself too, since it can get really big. Endless Horizons is here to exile no more than 4-5 Plains in my opinion. We need to use this as a worse Phyrexian Arena, because if it looks better, it will get destroyed.
I think it pretty much sum up the list currently.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
I'd like to point out that White Sun Zenith does give you a shuffle, which can be useful for your Scroll Rack.
Let's count!
Dust Bowl
Karoo
Kjeldoran Post
Scorched Ruins
Skybind
Smokestack
Tithe also works with the 4 fetch lands since it is instant speed.
Also, I don't know if you ever played Land Tax (seems unlikely) but in multiplayer, players ramp like crazy. Even without all the support I currently play for these cards, it will always be better than playing a land instead. Tithe always works, it gets Mistveil Plains in worst case scenario. I played a mono-white deck before with absolutely no way to actually sac lands, and all these cards were still the best way to get card advantage. Land Tax already works if you are not the starting player, so it works 75% of the time without any help. Mono-W doesn't have Blue Sun's Zenith...
On shuffle effects...
4 fetch lands (+ Crucible)
Land Tax
Tithe
Gift of Estates
Enlightened Tutor
Expedition Map
Idyllic Tutor
Plea for Guidance
Oath of Lieges
Flagstone of Trokair (with some help)
That's 13 cards (I don't count Crucible) out of 99 and since you are talking specifically about when Scroll Rack is out, it's 13 out 98. Scroll Rack is only relevant when I have 4+ cards in my hand (IMO, I wouldn't use it with less than that, and Heliod definitely makes it possible to just sit here, make tokens and not play anything). With 4 cards (worst case scenario IMO), I dig 8 cards deep in the deck. If I can't get one of my 13 shuffle effects, I'm just unlucky at that point.
Some maths... not considering the 7 first cards I've got, outs already drawn, etc... 98 total random cards, 13 outs, 8 cards deep: http://stattrek.com/online-calculator/hypergeometric.aspx
That's 69.24% chances of drawing 1 of 13 outs in a 98 card deck if I go 8 cards deep.
Or if you prefer...
(98!/90! - 85!/77!) / (98!/90!) = 0.69418823713
I will take nearly 70% anytime. Odds are obviously better of drawing a shuffle effect than any of the 6 cards listed above to sac/exile my own lands. Still, I have 36.36% chances of having one of 6 outs in my opening hand (7 cards) not calculating mulligans (with Paris mulligans, you can see on average 10 cards instead of 7 maybe, so that would be 48.14% but it also depends on your decisions at that point). And, another good thing about Land Tax... the BEST way to trigger it in multiplayer if you are the starting player: just skip a land drop on turn 5-6, when you are already able to play one spell per turn anyway. You could also decline to start the game, but I won't do that. I'll still take that 75% of the times where I'm not the starting player, which means at least one opponent has one more land in play on my upkeep if he didn't miss any land drop.
One last note about my opponents skipping land drops and Equipoise: if any opponent skips a land drop, we can play this game for a long time, because Heliod only needs 4 mana and can go forever. But still, in a 4-player game, I highly doubt that my 3 opponents will do that, and if they do, well... mission accomplished Land Tax! About Equipoise it doesn't wreck anything, you are wrong on that: you can stack the triggers in the right order so that Equipoise resolves after Land Tax and you are totally fine. And having 3 opponents will usually make it work, since you can target an opponent with less lands than you anyway if only one opponent has more and you want to main phase Gift of Estates.
So yeah, unless there is something I'm missing about Equipoise, I don't see how it wrecks Land Tax and friends???
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
As far as Equipoise I hadn't even considered ordering the triggers, for some reason it never crossed my mine.
Of course White Sun Zenith's shuffle effect doesn't make it the best token generator, but it is something to consider when/if you start adding them.
Depending on how fast Land Tax & Co. do their jobs, you might consider adding land sac effects. It'll help you bring your land count down(Which I now realize isn't really necessary), and get some misc useful effect. Sunstone is great for this. Zuran Orb is quite good too. Solar Tide can make for a more versatile Wrath of God, especially with tokens.
On the other hand, cards like Claws of Gix might be considered better, again especially with tokens.
White Sun's Zenith isn't a bad card, it's a card I was considering, but the more I think about it, the more I think that Heliod is great at generating tokens. It's repeatable, WSZ isn't (I don't consider shuffling the spell back makes it repeatable). I'm better with Sacred Mesa, Mobilization and the 2 Elspeths, that's my conclusion for now. So no plan for Secure the Wastes either, not right now.
As for land sac, I don't really need more land sac, really. I already have plenty, I have Crucible but it's 1 card out of 99 in the deck, so I don't want to abuse this either. Yes, Sunstone is a great card but I have better cards to protect me right, Martyr's Cause is just an example.
Claws of Gix is an awesome card and I definitely recommend it to people going for a more stax version of Heliod. Right now, the only stax card I'm planning to play is Smokestack, and it's because the card is that good all by itself, it doesn't need any extra support besides Heliod. Heliod can definitely be a good stax general, but I don't want to go the full stax route. Hokori, Dust Drinker would also be a good general for that kind of deck.
I don't think Wrath of God will make the final cuts, I just need to look at every enchantments again. Planar Collapse is definitely an option, easy to trigger with Heliod although it will only work during my (next) upkeep). I want to play even more enchantments if I can, that's for sure. Also, I don't think I will play Gideon. Exclusion Ritual would be interesting, it exiles anything permanently for 6 mana with some imprint bonus. Pursuit of Knowledge, Prison Term, Solitary Confinement, Crescendo of War, Dictate of Heliod, True Conviction, Righteous Aura, Porphyry Nodes and Divine Presence are all considered right now for the last 2-3 spots in the list. Catastrophe could work too.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
I decided to add Mystic Barrier and Exclusion Ritual. I'm not sure about Citadel Siege, the first mode looks like a worse Cathars' Crusade, while the second mode is... quite good at defense I guess, but it does target.
Parallax Wave isn't as good without Opalescence, it's not something I want to play on turn 4 for example... that makes me wonder if I should add back Opalescence despite the anti-synergy with Heliod's tokens, or if I should completely remove Parallax Wave. Plea for Guidance gets both cards at the same, which is definitely awesome, and it works as an alternate wincondition if I have enough enchantments already on the battlefield and can attack with everything (just need to be careful with that). I think I need to play Opalescence, I really do.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
On Oblation, I fear I will end up using the card more than anything on my own tokens to draw 2 cards. This can be good with Terminus, but I'm not sure it's the point to play such a card.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Well,let's say hello to the new card for this deck.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
This and Skybind foil would be awesome, from a mere esthetic point of view!
Well, foil or not, this thing is completely broken with so many cards in the deck. Who needs Sun Titan? Just bring back Aura of Silence or Soul Snare every turn.
Also, the fact that the Opalescence clause is conditional adds a lot of versatility. With Parallax Wave, it's just amazing, I get to exile everything, but if someone plays Wrath of God, I can just exile a couple of my own enchantments to end the effect. Wow.
One of the best card in the deck. Who knew? It kills Heliod's token if I don't have an emblem, but even if the tokens die as a state-based action, they trigger Skybind and Martyr's Bond.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Also, I'm really near getting to the final list, I'm at 102 cards right now (including Opalescence, which will be replaced by this new awesomeness). Couple of cuts and I will post it. Divine Intervention won't make it, I think the deck has (finally) plenty of ways to win.
Thanks WotC. Awesome set so far.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Some enchantments might be swapped after playtest, I will see. Mostly, I have both Righteous Aura and Martyr's Cause that serve a similar purpose, also I'm not sure how good Citadel Siege is, and if I can manage Crescendo of War. All that fine tuning will be possible when I'm done assembling the deck.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Also, some ruling knowledge is necessary with Opalescence effects and Gods: if any God enters the battlefield BEFORE the Opalescence effect, it will be a creature with P/T=CMC. If the God enters the battlefield after, then the devotion static ability will apply since the timestamp is younger, which means it won't be a creature if devotion criteria isn't met, while it will be a creature if we have devotion (with P/T=CMC though, and it loses the God subtype).
I don't plan on playing Humility since it's banned for 1v1 and my playgroup uses both banlists, but I will also take a look at that interaction just in case I play in another playgroup and someone plays Humility.
It will be important to be really careful when playing Starfield of Nyx anyway. If I can control the number of enchantments, it's perfect. If not, I need to watch for Wrath of God effects.
Some extra notes about cards I thought about not playing:
Righteous Aura: Martyr's Cause is often better, but this thing costs 2 and doesn't need Heliod or anything, it just works and doesn't target.
Citadel Siege: looks weaker than Cathars' Crusade as far as the 1st mode goes, but we have versatility, better CMC, it should stick longer and it can boost Heliod faster to do 21 damage quickly (exactly 3 swings if 5+7+9).
Mystic Barrier: it doesn't work at the end of the game or when I play 1v1, but when it works, it's one of the best protection card we have. Politics is fun too.
Exclusion Ritual: expansive Council's Judgment but tutorable and recurrable. Also, it counts as an enchantment, and it will probably be never destroyed. If it is, we get to reuse it, and if not, Sphere of Safety, Serra's Sanctum and Starfield of Nyx are all happy.
If they print better enchantments that don't have a similar function of one I already play, I might remove one of these.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
I agree, I think I will play both Opalescence and Starfield.
I did a couple of game yesterday and the deck performed greatly, even if I lost both games. (Avacyn in a Kaalia deck made it unstoppable).
I am doing some changes, mostly due to the meta of my playgroup. Thinking of removing the Cathar's Crusade and put some more protection, since most of my friends' decks are really aggressive and I do not want to be targeted!
Yeah well, there is a good density of tutoring involved in the deck (I almost count Scroll Rack in that group since we get to see more and more cards from the deck) so I tend to avoid playing the same functional card (I cut Kismet, because Blind Obedience will do). Also, Starfield of Nyx is a better card to me. There were problems with Opalescence. I wouldn't call it the main win condition. Heliod is the main win condition. Produce tokens, play an enabler, and win. Whether it's Cathars' Crusade or Crescendo of War or just attacking with a bunch of tokens. To win against Avacyn or Khalia, we need to play politics, we don't have Master of Cruelty killing a player on turn 4 (I wouldn't like to play that sort of deck).
What I meant to say is that it's a risky plan. With Starfield to Nyx, you have options. With Opalescence, you don't. You lose your whole board to Toxic Deluge. Mono-black can't deal with enchantments. But with creatures... they have the best EDH spell ever printed for that.
Plan A is to build some sort of defense/prison and win with Heliod. Plan B could involve Starfield to Nyx. Plan C is Smokestack. Plan D is Replenish for the win.
Starfield to Nyx does combo with Parallax Wave, but it only exiles creatures and enchantments and protect our own. It's not an instant win, it's basically a one-sided Final Judgment that works against enchantments too. Then your opponent can proceed to destroy Starfield and the game continues.
Having 2 Opalescence on the field makes each others a creature. This is good with Parallax Wave. But it's a pretty dangerous game too. Don't forget that Replenish doesn't give you the choice about what you return.
I will need to play test to really consider both. You guys are fast, I posted a list and you just built it? That's really fun. I have about half the deck done right now, I will need to find the fetch lands and Crucible and should be ready before Origins is released.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Well Friday my deck was full proxy and 23 plains, Now is half proxy with 20 card waiting for me in the mail!
It is growing to be quite different from yours, much more of a pillowfort deck, but your "inspiration" is strong in the deck!
My other main deck is the Lin Sivvi pillowfort, my playgroup hates me now, but I have a lot of fun!
As soon as I define my whole list I will post it, anyway!
Excellent! Do you play any creature?
I always wanted to build a deck with no creature and laugh when entering a new playgroup and getting targetted by Bribery in the hope of finding Avacyn or Elesh Norn and then nothing...
I like different ideas. Academy Rector would be totally solid in this deck. But... I like doing something different.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
My creed when I build a deck is "Flavour over efficiency", I prefer a slightly wekaer deck but that respect the theme of the deck, therefore I will never add creatures to this deck!
Also, I always loved "extreme" decks, with many lands or no land at all, so a Creatureless deck (in white) is amazing to me!
you also have the option of using gerrard's battle cry it is an enchantment with a similar though overall weaker effect but if you want to multiply the effectiveness of your tokens for an alpha strike with an enchantment this is one way to do it