Having a Marath and an Elfball player in my meta makes Norn that much better for me, although I think she's generally great in most circumstances other than facing down draw-go.
I noticed you aren't running Stoneforge Mystic and was curious as to why. I run the 3-swords package + Skullclamp and it looks like you swap Lightning Greaves for SoLaS where I prefer the protections and creature recursion (and nominal life gain is cool too, I guess). So you aren't running with any fewer equipments and any of the ones you do have are very impactful. Is it just because our most expensive equipment card is at 3 that her tap ability isn't as great because of that? I think that the tutor alone at her cost where we can abuse creatures justifies her use even still.
I don't remember what initially spurred it, but at some point I was trying to cut a card to test another card, and so I sat for quite a while with the list in front of me, trying to figure out what I'd miss the least. It just kind turned up as Mystic. As it stands, I just haven't missed her. I've got multiple other ways of finding my equipments if I want/need them.
I've decided to cut Jace, the Mind Sculptor for Ephara, God of the Polis. So far, I've been really happy with the swap.
While she doesn't see as many cards at once, and doesn't have the versatility that Jace does, she is significantly more resilient and tends to stick around longer and see more cards overall than Jace.
Plus, every once in a while she's just an indestructible beater, and that's fine.
Yeah, Arrogance has been pretty good for me. I was actually just thinking about asking you how that change was working out for you, but I guess you beat me to it. Actually, right after posting my recommendation for you, I started a SCD on it, to see what other experiences have been on it. A few nay-sayers, but generally positive reception.
I like the Ephara swap as well, she's been pulling some weight for me in my Roon list, to the point that I'm questioning why I hadn't put her in earlier. Resilient draw engines are good. Although, I don't have a Jace to have swapped out for her, so her slot was even more questionable beforehand...
Nice deck. ETB and bant are made for each other. You may want to consider replacing Deadeye Navigator with Eldrazi Displacer or adding it for additional flicker ability. I almost didn't due to the obvious drawbacks, but found I like it more than Deadeye since I can target any creature on the battlefield, giving it both offensive and defensive capabilities.
I've thought a lot about Eldrazi Displacer. I don't think I want it instead of Deadeye Navigator, but I've come very close to playing it in addition a few times.
My primary concern is not just whether or not I'll have the colourless mana to activate it, but rather whether or not I'll have enough colourless to really take advantage of it. Also, I'm not really sure what I'd take out for it.
Unrelated, sorry to everyone that it's been so long since I've updated! Things have been very busy.
Shadows Over Innistrad didn't really hold much that caught my eye for this deck. The only one that comes close, I think, is Altered Ego, and it's mostly for the fact that it can be grabbed by Green Sun's Zenith. Yes, Progenitor Mimic could already do that, but this one doesn't cost 6.
Well, I already own two other Mana Crypts, so putting one in here isn't really a huge deal. I've thought about it a few times.
I don't like the filter lands. I ran them in here before and cut them because they lead to so many awkward mana situations. The pain lands are fine, but there isn't really anything I'd rather have them in over.
I'll probably take some time at some point to test out the Eldrazi Displacer and see how I feel about it for sure.
Yeah, Archangel Avacyn would definitely be worth some consideration if she didn't flip to red.
If the identity rules only counted her day side and she still had the same night side then I'd be even more inclined to play her.
Did you ever try Hardened Scales? I know your deck isn't focused around your commander but for G seems like it would be decent. Also what about Seedborn Muse? Super charges your general, gives all your guys vigilance, makes mana always available for answers, etc.
Did you ever try Hardened Scales? I know your deck isn't focused around your commander but for G seems like it would be decent. Also what about Seedborn Muse? Super charges your general, gives all your guys vigilance, makes mana always available for answers, etc.
Given that there isn't much stuff here that plays with +1/+1 counters, I really don't feel Hardened Scales would be worth the slot. If I want to play more cards intended to make Jenny herself more threatening, I would just add more equipment and the like, things that are beneficial for all/most of my creatures, rather than just her.
As for Seedborn Muse, I've actually considered it a few times. It was on the short list of cards to replace Prophet of Kruphix when she got the ban hammer (the other cards on that short list being Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir and Temporal Manipulation). In the end, I felt like it just didn't do as much here as I would've liked. Unlike Prophet, it doesn't give me something to do with all that extra mana it gives me. It's great when I've already got a mana sink on the table (like Jenny, or Deadeye Navigator) but otherwise I think I'm happier just having the extra Time Warp in the deck.
So I had a great game at a new shop the other night. After being screwed by my deck regarding mana (I was on my 9th land before I had a single blue source, which is just a flat out statistical anomaly) I was able to set up a really nice Lark combo with Sun Titan, E-wit, Karmic Guide and a couple other creatures. I didn't really want to go infinite against the two guys I was playing against for the first time which I could have had I wanted to tutor up my Deadeye Navigator with Time Warp in the yard.
I didn't see Survival of the Fittest during the game, which would have been even better because no one had graveyard hate to really stop what I was doing in the game. I did feel a real need to have a sacrifice outlet of some sort in order to trigger the combo myself. Most of what I ended up doing was just taking over the board and out-valuing the other players once they were in top deck mode by accumulating card advantage and flashing in Reveillark with Alchemist's Refuge in response to board wipes. Running Ashnod's Altar would have been quite preferable, my only problem would be finding a spot for it in a list that seems to get tighter all the time.
I took out the Altar because I didn't want to be comboing on people, but sacrificing in response to exile or to activate Lark/re-use an ETB off of Karmic Guide coming into play seem like things that I really should be doing in an effort to end the game. As it stands, general damage, mediocre combat steps, and the corner case where I take infinite turns/kill all the lands/bounce everything off of DEN and EW/Acidic Slime/Venser are the only ways that I reliably win. I think that opening up the win conditions for this list to more than just those options by including more combo interactions with a sac outlet is going to be a good choice to let me more reliably close things out when I'm ahead.
Anyway, just thought I'd share since it had been a while since I had dominated a game as hard as that without the help of PoK.
There are certainly tons of combo options that could be done here. I've purposely cut back on combo options rather than increased them, though. The only combo I can do now is infinite turns (in a couple of ways), and I don't generally aim for it. It's just a way to close out a stale game, generally.
Mostly I just got bored of winning with the same combos, and I've never really found my list to have any difficulty closing out a game. It's so easy to just get way more stuff on the board than the opponents, including several 4+ power flyers. Combine that with an extra turn or two and you can very easily close the game out. I focus a lot of early game on ramping, drawing cards, and answering the more severe threats, then drop a Resolute Archangel to blank any damage I've taken or my own life I've eaten from Birthing Pod, Ancient Tomb, etc., then I take over the game.
I don't necessarily think that another way to sacrifice now and then is a bad thing, though. Something like a High Market could probably be great here. Something like Barrin, Master Wizard could even work. Sacrifice stuff AND bounce things? Seems decent. Very blue heavy, though.
If I'm new to this deck is the build on the first page a current updated list for me to try out or is that one old already?
It's relatively current. The one in my signature is as well. As it is a value deck, outside of the general roles that certain cards fill (such as removal a la Reclamation Sage or a clone effect like Clever Impersonator), you can use any removal/clone card in those slots. The engines like Birthing Pod, Reveillark, Karmic Guide, etc. are less replaceable and very much necessary.
Other than the engines though, the list is very much a plug and play for value creatures so the current-ness doesn't actually change how the deck plays other than running more-optimal lands as they are released or personal preference based on meta. I like Sigarda, Host of Herons, for example, because I see a ton of edict effects and stuff that makes me sac creatures/permanents. Others may not see as much Grixis as I do and would rather have a different card in her slot.
Also, pretty much what Riven said. Like I say in the primer itself, one of the huge benefits of not only this deck but these colours is the huge room for customization. There are so many great ETB creatures. Play the ones that you feel you need/want the most.
If you're just looking for something to carbon copy for now as a place to start, as I said the list is current, and I'm very happy with it right now.
The emblem is strong but I feel like all of the other abilities seem rather questionable. I like the +1 ideally assuming you can connect with two creatures but it seems weak if you draw one or less with it. The -2 ability while cool seems super dependent on what you are facing.
I guess if I were to make a quick assessment its that its probably not good enough to just include. It seems amusing if you want to build with the whole Doubling Season push for ults plan but otherwise I dont really think its good enough.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
The +1 has the potential to draw you as many as 8 cards, in theory (two creatures with Double Strike and Vigilance, both of which attack and block). Obviously that's a high end best case scenario, but it's still theoretically possible. It's also worth noting that they don't have to be YOUR creatures. You can target any two creatures. So, for example, if you target your opponent's creatures then you get cards if/when they attack with them.
It's a little unfortunate that the -2 ability isn't really sustainable, but it's a fine speed bump. Freezing two things is rarely irrelevant.
I did overlook the +1 a little as I had assumed it was your creatures and I had assumed it was combat damage to an opponent. Even then though, it seems more geared for a Rafiq deck than a Jenara deck.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I did overlook the +1 a little as I had assumed it was your creatures and I had assumed it was combat damage to an opponent. Even then though, it seems more geared for a Rafiq deck than a Jenara deck.
totally agree. If you get the emblem out and can't win within the next turn im sure you wont live much longer, at least with Rafiq its generally more feasible to OTK someone by playing out your hand.
I actually like her quite a bit. The -2 could be better, arguably, since OG Tamiyo would let us to that to one permanent for +1, but her +1 is really underrated I think. You can do so many things with a creature that has vigilance on it by swinging first then using it as a blocker. You can also dissuade opponents from swinging as well by making their best creatures give you a card if you go to combat. She's a 4 cost draw 2 at worst that eats 5 damage, which is still pretty good, but I feel like she can get far more value than that. Her ult is really, really strong and almost makes me want to run Doubling Season just for her or turn Jenara into a super friends list (though Derevi is better for Bant superfriends I think and I already have a superfriends list for Narset, though the lack of green hurts me emotionally). I don't usually assess a planeswalker's ult strength as they aren't generally realistic, but I feel like you could get to this one, especially in these colors.
Overall, I really like her and she is on the verge of getting a slot in this list. Probably the best walker that we don't already run.
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Current Commanders: Derevi, Empyrial Tactician (coming soon) | [Primer] Sedris, the Traitor King | Maelstrom Wanderer | Najeela, the Blade Blossom | Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow
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Retired Commanders: [Primer] Jenara, Asura of War | [Primer] Ghave, Guru of Spores | Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury | Saskia the Unyielding | Sydri, Galvanic Genius
While she doesn't see as many cards at once, and doesn't have the versatility that Jace does, she is significantly more resilient and tends to stick around longer and see more cards overall than Jace.
Plus, every once in a while she's just an indestructible beater, and that's fine.
Also, a while back I swapped out Mana Confluence and City of Brass for Prairie Stream and Canopy Vista and I've just realized that I never actually made that update.
I've been happy with the battle duals.
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Current Commanders: Derevi, Empyrial Tactician (coming soon) | [Primer] Sedris, the Traitor King | Maelstrom Wanderer | Najeela, the Blade Blossom | Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow
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Retired Commanders: [Primer] Jenara, Asura of War | [Primer] Ghave, Guru of Spores | Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury | Saskia the Unyielding | Sydri, Galvanic Genius
The battle duals seem really good too. Will check it out.
I've been super happy with Tragic Arrogance, and thanks to bobthefunny for making me take a second look at it.
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Current Commanders: Derevi, Empyrial Tactician (coming soon) | [Primer] Sedris, the Traitor King | Maelstrom Wanderer | Najeela, the Blade Blossom | Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow
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Retired Commanders: [Primer] Jenara, Asura of War | [Primer] Ghave, Guru of Spores | Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury | Saskia the Unyielding | Sydri, Galvanic Genius
I like the Ephara swap as well, she's been pulling some weight for me in my Roon list, to the point that I'm questioning why I hadn't put her in earlier. Resilient draw engines are good. Although, I don't have a Jace to have swapped out for her, so her slot was even more questionable beforehand...
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
My primary concern is not just whether or not I'll have the colourless mana to activate it, but rather whether or not I'll have enough colourless to really take advantage of it. Also, I'm not really sure what I'd take out for it.
Unrelated, sorry to everyone that it's been so long since I've updated! Things have been very busy.
Shadows Over Innistrad didn't really hold much that caught my eye for this deck. The only one that comes close, I think, is Altered Ego, and it's mostly for the fact that it can be grabbed by Green Sun's Zenith. Yes, Progenitor Mimic could already do that, but this one doesn't cost 6.
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Current Commanders: Derevi, Empyrial Tactician (coming soon) | [Primer] Sedris, the Traitor King | Maelstrom Wanderer | Najeela, the Blade Blossom | Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow
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Retired Commanders: [Primer] Jenara, Asura of War | [Primer] Ghave, Guru of Spores | Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury | Saskia the Unyielding | Sydri, Galvanic Genius
G Azusa, Wherever I May Roam
UG Rashmi Simic Power
WB Kambal Life Gain Kills
URG Maelstrom Wanderer Howdy
I don't like the filter lands. I ran them in here before and cut them because they lead to so many awkward mana situations. The pain lands are fine, but there isn't really anything I'd rather have them in over.
I'll probably take some time at some point to test out the Eldrazi Displacer and see how I feel about it for sure.
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Current Commanders: Derevi, Empyrial Tactician (coming soon) | [Primer] Sedris, the Traitor King | Maelstrom Wanderer | Najeela, the Blade Blossom | Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow
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Retired Commanders: [Primer] Jenara, Asura of War | [Primer] Ghave, Guru of Spores | Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury | Saskia the Unyielding | Sydri, Galvanic Genius
If the identity rules only counted her day side and she still had the same night side then I'd be even more inclined to play her.
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Current Commanders: Derevi, Empyrial Tactician (coming soon) | [Primer] Sedris, the Traitor King | Maelstrom Wanderer | Najeela, the Blade Blossom | Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow
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Retired Commanders: [Primer] Jenara, Asura of War | [Primer] Ghave, Guru of Spores | Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury | Saskia the Unyielding | Sydri, Galvanic Genius
Retired Lists: Ghave - Hanna - Thrun - Zur
Pauper: Crypt Rats
As for Seedborn Muse, I've actually considered it a few times. It was on the short list of cards to replace Prophet of Kruphix when she got the ban hammer (the other cards on that short list being Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir and Temporal Manipulation). In the end, I felt like it just didn't do as much here as I would've liked. Unlike Prophet, it doesn't give me something to do with all that extra mana it gives me. It's great when I've already got a mana sink on the table (like Jenny, or Deadeye Navigator) but otherwise I think I'm happier just having the extra Time Warp in the deck.
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Current Commanders: Derevi, Empyrial Tactician (coming soon) | [Primer] Sedris, the Traitor King | Maelstrom Wanderer | Najeela, the Blade Blossom | Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow
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Retired Commanders: [Primer] Jenara, Asura of War | [Primer] Ghave, Guru of Spores | Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury | Saskia the Unyielding | Sydri, Galvanic Genius
I didn't see Survival of the Fittest during the game, which would have been even better because no one had graveyard hate to really stop what I was doing in the game. I did feel a real need to have a sacrifice outlet of some sort in order to trigger the combo myself. Most of what I ended up doing was just taking over the board and out-valuing the other players once they were in top deck mode by accumulating card advantage and flashing in Reveillark with Alchemist's Refuge in response to board wipes. Running Ashnod's Altar would have been quite preferable, my only problem would be finding a spot for it in a list that seems to get tighter all the time.
I took out the Altar because I didn't want to be comboing on people, but sacrificing in response to exile or to activate Lark/re-use an ETB off of Karmic Guide coming into play seem like things that I really should be doing in an effort to end the game. As it stands, general damage, mediocre combat steps, and the corner case where I take infinite turns/kill all the lands/bounce everything off of DEN and EW/Acidic Slime/Venser are the only ways that I reliably win. I think that opening up the win conditions for this list to more than just those options by including more combo interactions with a sac outlet is going to be a good choice to let me more reliably close things out when I'm ahead.
Anyway, just thought I'd share since it had been a while since I had dominated a game as hard as that without the help of PoK.
EDH:
G[cEDH] Selvala, Heart of the StormG
URW[cEDH] Narset, the Last AirmericanURW
GWUSt. Jenara, the ArchangelGWU
UBGrimgrin, Chaos MarineUB
GOmnath, Mana BaronG
URWNarset, Justice League AmericaURW
GWUBAtraxa, Countess of CountersGWUB
GWUEstrid, Enbantress PrimeGWU
Mostly I just got bored of winning with the same combos, and I've never really found my list to have any difficulty closing out a game. It's so easy to just get way more stuff on the board than the opponents, including several 4+ power flyers. Combine that with an extra turn or two and you can very easily close the game out. I focus a lot of early game on ramping, drawing cards, and answering the more severe threats, then drop a Resolute Archangel to blank any damage I've taken or my own life I've eaten from Birthing Pod, Ancient Tomb, etc., then I take over the game.
I don't necessarily think that another way to sacrifice now and then is a bad thing, though. Something like a High Market could probably be great here. Something like Barrin, Master Wizard could even work. Sacrifice stuff AND bounce things? Seems decent. Very blue heavy, though.
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Current Commanders: Derevi, Empyrial Tactician (coming soon) | [Primer] Sedris, the Traitor King | Maelstrom Wanderer | Najeela, the Blade Blossom | Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow
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Retired Commanders: [Primer] Jenara, Asura of War | [Primer] Ghave, Guru of Spores | Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury | Saskia the Unyielding | Sydri, Galvanic Genius
It's relatively current. The one in my signature is as well. As it is a value deck, outside of the general roles that certain cards fill (such as removal a la Reclamation Sage or a clone effect like Clever Impersonator), you can use any removal/clone card in those slots. The engines like Birthing Pod, Reveillark, Karmic Guide, etc. are less replaceable and very much necessary.
Other than the engines though, the list is very much a plug and play for value creatures so the current-ness doesn't actually change how the deck plays other than running more-optimal lands as they are released or personal preference based on meta. I like Sigarda, Host of Herons, for example, because I see a ton of edict effects and stuff that makes me sac creatures/permanents. Others may not see as much Grixis as I do and would rather have a different card in her slot.
EDH:
G[cEDH] Selvala, Heart of the StormG
URW[cEDH] Narset, the Last AirmericanURW
GWUSt. Jenara, the ArchangelGWU
UBGrimgrin, Chaos MarineUB
GOmnath, Mana BaronG
URWNarset, Justice League AmericaURW
GWUBAtraxa, Countess of CountersGWUB
GWUEstrid, Enbantress PrimeGWU
Also, pretty much what Riven said. Like I say in the primer itself, one of the huge benefits of not only this deck but these colours is the huge room for customization. There are so many great ETB creatures. Play the ones that you feel you need/want the most.
If you're just looking for something to carbon copy for now as a place to start, as I said the list is current, and I'm very happy with it right now.
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Current Commanders: Derevi, Empyrial Tactician (coming soon) | [Primer] Sedris, the Traitor King | Maelstrom Wanderer | Najeela, the Blade Blossom | Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow
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Retired Commanders: [Primer] Jenara, Asura of War | [Primer] Ghave, Guru of Spores | Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury | Saskia the Unyielding | Sydri, Galvanic Genius
Hello, new friend!
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Current Commanders: Derevi, Empyrial Tactician (coming soon) | [Primer] Sedris, the Traitor King | Maelstrom Wanderer | Najeela, the Blade Blossom | Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow
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Retired Commanders: [Primer] Jenara, Asura of War | [Primer] Ghave, Guru of Spores | Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury | Saskia the Unyielding | Sydri, Galvanic Genius
Tamiyo, Field Researcher
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Current Commanders: Derevi, Empyrial Tactician (coming soon) | [Primer] Sedris, the Traitor King | Maelstrom Wanderer | Najeela, the Blade Blossom | Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow
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Retired Commanders: [Primer] Jenara, Asura of War | [Primer] Ghave, Guru of Spores | Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury | Saskia the Unyielding | Sydri, Galvanic Genius
I guess if I were to make a quick assessment its that its probably not good enough to just include. It seems amusing if you want to build with the whole Doubling Season push for ults plan but otherwise I dont really think its good enough.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
It's a little unfortunate that the -2 ability isn't really sustainable, but it's a fine speed bump. Freezing two things is rarely irrelevant.
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Current Commanders: Derevi, Empyrial Tactician (coming soon) | [Primer] Sedris, the Traitor King | Maelstrom Wanderer | Najeela, the Blade Blossom | Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow
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Retired Commanders: [Primer] Jenara, Asura of War | [Primer] Ghave, Guru of Spores | Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury | Saskia the Unyielding | Sydri, Galvanic Genius
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
totally agree. If you get the emblem out and can't win within the next turn im sure you wont live much longer, at least with Rafiq its generally more feasible to OTK someone by playing out your hand.
[EDH In Development] Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Queen Marchesa | Ruhan of the Fomori | Yahenni, Undying Partisan
[EDH Retired] Ertai, The Corrupted | Sigarda, Host of Herons | Tariel, Reckoner of Souls | Korlash, Heir to Blackblade
[Modern] Stuffy Doll Combo Burn | Demigod of Revenge
Overall, I really like her and she is on the verge of getting a slot in this list. Probably the best walker that we don't already run.
EDH:
G[cEDH] Selvala, Heart of the StormG
URW[cEDH] Narset, the Last AirmericanURW
GWUSt. Jenara, the ArchangelGWU
UBGrimgrin, Chaos MarineUB
GOmnath, Mana BaronG
URWNarset, Justice League AmericaURW
GWUBAtraxa, Countess of CountersGWUB
GWUEstrid, Enbantress PrimeGWU