MTG Salvation

Quote from ZenN »

Quote from DeadPresident2910 »

Yeah, sadly. I figured it’s possible that as a mid/late game Pod/Vannifar Target she could turn our 1-3 drops into 4/4’s and establish some solid board presence, but really, when the 5 drop slot has stuff like Karmic Guide, Cataclysmic Gearhulk, Seedborn Muse, and Willbreaker as competition Oketra kind of falls flat.

Nothing in this set is absolutely begging to be accommodated IMO, not in the same way cards like Vannifar were.

Speaking of Prime Speaker Vannifar...

On Friday night I finally had a chance to play some games with my usual group with her in the deck. I ended up slotting her in over Mirari's Wake for the time being to try her out.

I didn't cast her once. I never tutored for her. I had several opportunities, I just never wanted to. Every time I could, it felt like a bad play. In many cases, she was just going to die before I'd get a chance to untap with her, and in others I just had to spend my mana doing other things.

I didn't think it would bug me that much that she needs a turn cycle to be useful, but it really did. In 1v1 it would've been much less of an issue, but in a 4 player game, all people who know my shenanigans, there was no way they were ever going to let me untap with her.

I'm going to try one more session with her, but I'm sad to say that I don't think she'll be making the cut.

I've kind of been worried about that potential drawback for Vannifar. Of all the cards in my deck (and probably any green deck) the highest priority for the table is dealing with me getting Birthing Pod online, so Vannifar will undoubtedly catch the same attention and without haste might mean she's a dead card quite often. If the fine print with her is "Have Greaves available or she's useless" that kind of makes her a bit of an awkward card to include, sadly.

I have yet to test her out but I'm pretty sure your and my playing experiences are rather similar, I generally also tend to have the reputation that whatever plans I might have need to be rapidly disrupted. I'll wait to test it out but I suspect I might have a similar experience, which is kind of sad. But, there are a massive amount of creature tutors already available so it's likely not that much of an issue, but it is a bit of a shame.

Finale of Devastation has absolutely caught my eye.

Tutor or reanimate, or late game massive overrun. I like it a lot.

I was really hoping for one of the Finales to be playable for us! Finale of Devastation is indeed really cool (also tutorable with Spellseeker)! What comes out for it? I'm assuming one of our "X" tutors. Between Wargate, Chord of Calling, and Green Sun's Zenith, I'm honestly at a loss as to which to cut. I could see cutting any one of them; they're all unique, but about on par with each other in power/versatility.

I think it's Green Sun's Zenith that gets the boot for this. The shuffle back in clause rarely matters, in my experience, and it only finds green creatures. Wargate has the benefit of finding any permanent, and Chord of Calling is an instant that can be pretty easy to cheat the cost on. The main benefit to Green Sun is just the cheaper cost, but in this case, swapping for Finale of Devastation, you're going up by 1 mana, but you gain the ability to get any creature from your deck, reanimate any creature, or just straight up win the game if you've got a few creatures and 12 mana lying around (which is a way I've won plenty of games already, thanks to Mirror Entity).

Is there any creature that would interact with Finale of Devastation in such a way that it's pretty much game when X=10+? Obviously Craterhoof Behemoth works best with an established board (End-Raze Forerunners might actually be preferable in that scenario), but are there any others that fit the criteria and don't feel out of place in a Jenara/Derevi list?

I’d agree on the cutting GSZ consensus. Chord has just been too valuable in my experience, instant speed shenanigans are just too useful to pass up.

As far as an instant win con with FoD I think Craterhoof , Avenger of Zendikar or Pathbreaker Ibex make the most sense. It’ll have to be a card that gives mass evasion. Something that grants doublestrike could be good for the commander damage route.

Not sure Avenger of Zendikar works. I think the the +/+ and haste resolves before the tokens are created.

Quote from Kitsune_18 »

Not sure Avenger of Zendikar works. I think the the +/+ and haste resolves before the tokens are created.

This is correct. All parts of Finale of Devastation will finish resolving before any triggers.

Craterhoof Behemoth and Pathbreaker Ibex would certainly work. Neither of those are particularly appealing inclusions though, in my opinion.

Given how infrequently casting Finale for 12+ mana is likely to happen, I don't really feel compelled to include any specific cards for fetching in that manner.

Ah yeah, of course - so whatever is on the board beforehand would get the bonus but not the Avenger or tokens. That rules that one out.

I managed to get two games in today (admittedly not against the most tuned decks) and used Vannifar in the first and she felt a little awkward. Coincidentally I had Lightning Greaves, but because of the shroud it’s impossible to protect Vannifar and use Derevi’s untap to abuse her ability.

Although she did generate value at the time because nobody could remove her it didn’t feel all that impressive.

In the second game I had the same experience Zen mentioned before of having the opportunity to tutor for her multiple times but it never seemed like that was the optimal play. Useful card for sure but my preliminary feeling is that she might just be a bit slow and clunky.

Slight side note - a card I did try out was Willbreaker and it ended up performing quite well. I often feel like my 5-drops are a little boring and there were a few occasions where finding Willbreaker and using a couple of Derevi triggers to steal problematic creatures was useful.

Quote from DeadPresident2910 »

Ah yeah, of course - so whatever is on the board beforehand would get the bonus but not the Avenger or tokens. That rules that one out.

Whatever you search for will still get the +/+ and haste, I believe, but EtB triggers will not happen until the entire spell resolves.

I also feel like my 5 drops are a bit boring. 3 graveyard recursion cards live at 5 cmc and then a few "silver bullet" type cards, but I find there isn't really a "goodstuff" card to grab if I don't need either of those. I've tried Thalia's Lancers in the past and, although the tutoring is quite nice, the body just isn't as impressive as I'd like. I'd usually rather just have Reveillark.

Quote from Kitsune_18 »

Quote from DeadPresident2910 »

Ah yeah, of course - so whatever is on the board beforehand would get the bonus but not the Avenger or tokens. That rules that one out.

Whatever you search for will still get the +/+ and haste, I believe, but EtB triggers will not happen until the entire spell resolves.

I also feel like my 5 drops are a bit boring. 3 graveyard recursion cards live at 5 cmc and then a few "silver bullet" type cards, but I find there isn't really a "goodstuff" card to grab if I don't need either of those. I've tried Thalia's Lancers in the past and, although the tutoring is quite nice, the body just isn't as impressive as I'd like. I'd usually rather just have Reveillark.

Ah okay, cool.

Yeah, I have to admit whenever I'm tutoring for 4/5 drops I always feel like I want to find an effect I don't have, but most 5cmc creatures in Bant aren't amazing, I'm pretty sure the best options have been discussed in threads like this already. I will say after I started playing Seedborn Muse it became the most common 5 drop I find outside of Karmic Guide. I run about 7 counter spells in my list so I'm usually able to protect the Muse and it's quite a game changer, I'd highly recommend anyone who hasn't given it a few games to see if it potentially works for them. It isn't really good stuff in the traditional sense since it doesn't impact the board when it ETBs, but it usually puts me ahead a decent amount.

Just for reference or interest my current list of 5cmc creatures is:

Karmic Guide
Seedborn Muse
Body Double
Cataclysmic Gearhulk
Willbreaker
Reveillark

The utility four drop I ended up adding was Palace Jailer and I've been reasonably impressed with it, almost always grabs a creature and the card draw is never bad.

I wouldn't mind trying out Seedborn Muse. Our 5 cmc creatures are pretty similar; I have Ixidron over the Gearhulk, and Acidic Slime in place of Willbreaker. I also run Mulldrifter. Are you still running Azami, Lady of Scrolls? I'm not sure where to make cuts for Seedborn Muse. I've been trying out Brago, King Eternal and I suppose that fulfills a similar role in that if it isn't answered quickly, it takes over the game.

Palace Jailer has been in my list for a few months now and I'm not sure what to make of it. I typically find myself tutoring for other things like Gilded Drake or Venser, Shaper Savant when I need removal. I've yet to live the dream of blinking him and exiling multiple things .

I actually think I cut Azami for the Willbreaker. After playing Azami for some time I realized that the likes of Sylvan Libary/Rhystic Study/Edric, Spymaster of Trest covered my card draw fairly well, but I felt like my threats or win conditions were a bit slim so I included Willbreaker to experiment with a bit.

It's funny you mention Ixidron - I flipped past it in my EDH file earlier this week and I kept thinking I need to try it. I've actually noticed now and then that in situations where I would want to tutor up the Cataclysmic Gearhulk I often have multiple enchantments/artifacts out and I decide against the Gearhulk because I don't want to lose them. Ixidron might actually be a really great substitute, I think I'm going to make that swap and test it out! I used to run Venser and I quite liked him, if I can find an appropriate cut I wouldn't mind including him again, but I think at the time I already had Mystic Snake so I felt comfortable letting Venser go.

I'd highly recommend the Muse if you do feel like you need something that fulfills that function to test out a bit, if I manage to get to my end step with the Muse and a single counter spell in hand games tend to go well for me. I also run Wilderness Reclamation as a similar card, I'm really fond of that type of effect because I tend towards high amounts of instant speed interaction in my list.

I've tried Ixidron in the past, but I was never overly impressed with it. Generally much happier with Cataclysmic Gearhulk.

I've been running Azami, Lady of Scrolls for a while now, and I have to say I'm incredibly happy with her. Almost every time I've had her on the table I've drawn 3 or so cards per turn for 2-4 turns before someone takes her out, as a minimum, and that's pretty fantastic. Then there are the odd times when I have Azami and Mirror Entity together on the table and I turn my entire team into 1/1 wizards until end of turn and draw a ton...

I've considered, off and on, running Willbreaker. I'm a little concerned with its fragility, but I'll probably try it out sooner or later.

Quote from Kitsune_18 »

I wouldn't mind trying out Seedborn Muse. Our 5 cmc creatures are pretty similar; I have Ixidron over the Gearhulk, and Acidic Slime in place of Willbreaker. I also run Mulldrifter. Are you still running Azami, Lady of Scrolls? I'm not sure where to make cuts for Seedborn Muse. I've been trying out Brago, King Eternal and I suppose that fulfills a similar role in that if it isn't answered quickly, it takes over the game.

Palace Jailer has been in my list for a few months now and I'm not sure what to make of it. I typically find myself tutoring for other things like Gilded Drake or Venser, Shaper Savant when I need removal. I've yet to live the dream of blinking him and exiling multiple things .

I've used Venser, Shaper Savant with the Reveillark - Mirror Entity - Body Double combo several times. People don't seem to like it. I've also gotten Gilded Drake going once with a repeatable flicker effect (I don't remember which one, I run four or five). My opponents scooped en masse.

I tested Prime Speaker Vannifar in my Derevi list. I was satisfied with her inclusion. While I don't think I'd ever tutor for her or Captain Sisay, she represents a solid value engine and is one of those cards opponents must answer or face a quick gg. Being able to put down a Glen Elendra and Spark Double or a tandem/trifecta of GAIV and Sakashima/Spark Double in one turn is a strong play. There is also a double Archon line. She's less efficient than Birthing Pod, and summoning sickness is a serious liability, but she's still a great card.

Has anyone tried out Neoform in their lists yet and managed to cast it a few times?

For anybody wondering, with the recent announcement of the closure of MTG Salvation, I am planning to make sure to get the Derevi version of this primer up on whatever the new incarnation of these forums is coming down the pipe.

It's probably unlikely that actual thread history will get carried over, but as the announcement says that the plan is to keep these posts available in a "read only" mode, the new thread on the new site will link back to this one for reference sake.

That's cool cuz I definitely plan to post my Derevi list that I've been working on for while and would love to hear your feedback on it.

Hey all, it's been awhile and we've had a lot of new sets hit since WAR. I'd love to discuss some of the cards in Modern Horizons and M20! One thing I'll try to avoid is passing judgment on cards; I'd much rather have a discussion as a group than to approve or dismiss cards.

But first I want to bring up a card from WAR that I might not have given enough credit on my first look through the set.

Narset's Reversal: This card was definitely not on my radar and, personally, I have no experience playing with or against it. However, I have heard a lot of anecdotal evidence to suggest it can be quite powerful.

Okay. On to the new stuff!

Springbloom Druid: for anyone playing Farhaven Elf over Yavimaya Dryad (me), this is probably an upgrade (can fix 2 colors). For those that don't mind the slightly more restrictive cost of the Dryad, the Druid is probably nothing exciting. Two considerations in the Druids favor: in rare cases, such as having only green and colorless mana sources in the first 3 turns, the Druid is better fixing than the Dryad. Second, if you don't run the maximum number of fetches, the sacrificed land gives another target for Sun Titan.

Speaking of Fetches! Prismatic Vista: I'd like to say this is a budget fetch land, but as of this post it's pretty much on par with the on-color fetches we play. If you need more fetch lands and you're running basic land type dual lands in any quantity, the off-color fetches will probably be better.

Waterlogged Grove: Great land for us! Acts as an additional Horizon Canopy but in arguably more important colors.

Force of Negation and Force of Vigor: I personally feel these are the best of the cycle. Negation interests me slightly more in this deck as a way to protect key targets. Vigor is great removal, but we already have that in abundance.

Speaking of removal! Generous Gift: Beast Within for white. I still play Bant Charm in addition to Beast Within as a versatile answer, but we already know this effect is good!

Sword of Sinew and Steel: Protection from relevant colors and an additional source of removal. Notably you do not have to destroy a target controlled by the player you hit.

Archmage's Charm: If the mana cost doesn't scare you away, you probably still won't be playing this over Cryptic Command. But it is fairly versatile.

Echo of Eons: Seems like a very powerful effect, but does it fit the deck?

Alright this post is getting much longer than I anticipated so I'll hold off bringing up any M20, Commander 2019, or Throne of Eldrane cards.

Edit: Almost forgot a couple!
Soulherder: A tutorable, recurable, Conjurer's Closet on legs!
Collector Ouphe: Artifact hate! This also shuts down our own artifacts, so this is totally a meta call.

Hey!!! So I litterally just made an account to post and be apart of the conversation!!! I love this deck! Although my deck is more focused around an Angel creature based theme, I’m curious as to your thoughts over [Relic of Progenitus] and/or [Rest in peace]!! I do though understand why you run the Claws! Cause I feel that the ALL GRAVEYARD effect is really a bummer for us white mages who want to recure our graveyard, since we can really easily, I’m going to 100% but a couple copies and slot them instead of Relic and Rest In Peace

Welcome! I love hearing new perspectives on the deck and EDH in general!

In regard to your question, yes it can be bad for us to hate out all graveyards with cards like Relic of Progenitus and Rest in Peace. As you've mentioned, some people opt to run Scrabbling Claws. I personally really like Tormod's Crypt. It won't draw you a card like Claws or Relic, but it wipes out an entire graveyard and is just as easy to tutor up.

Other great options for graveyard hate are effects attached to creatures since it is much easier for Bant to tutor, recur, and otherwise abuse effects on creatures. You'll see a lot of people run things like Scavenging Ooze and Stonecloaker, or even Angel of Finality. I'm getting on a rant here, but I want to mention one last card: Scavenger Grounds. It hits our own graveyard, but it won't take up a spell slot in the deck and is a good option if you play against a lot of decks that rely on the graveyard.

I know we haven't been very active here lately, but I'm going to put up an M20 (and eventually an Eldraine) set review. I'll try to avoid reviewing cards that have no real chance of being included.

The Cavalier Cycle: Cavalier of Gales Cavalier of Dawn Cavalier of Thorns These are pretty color intensive and the green one is a throw away, but the white and blue cavaliers could potentially be decent, specifically in a Birthing Pod chain as they all have EtB and dies triggers. They are competing for slots with cards like Mulldrifter and Duplicant that are just easier to cast and more flexible.

Agent of Treachery: I actually really like this card. I tend to think of him in similar terms as Duplicant: removal stapled to a creature. Agent has the advantage of not only removing ANY permanent, but actually stealing it for yourself. It also has the added benefit of occasionally drawing you a bunch of cards which is a real possibility in a deck with blink effects and cards like Gilded Drake and Bribery. I will be trying this over Duplicant.

Risen Reef: I really considered not discussing this card, but here I go. This seems like a worse (better?) Coiling Oracle which, I believe, is a card some here play. It has the advantage of not revealing the top card and it also plays nicely with clones and other elementals. Currently I'm playing 2 clones and 3 elementals (Mulldrifter, Reveillark, Bane of Progress) Technically the only disadvantage it has compared with the Oracle is that it costs 1 more mana. It has a lot of POTENTIAL upside but is that enough to make the deck?

Shared Summons: This card is great for setting up 2 card creature combos and has the added benefit of being an instant. There is a lot of competition in the creature tutor department but, if you have a combo that just wins the game, this might edge out some of those.

Tale's End: A cheaper Disallow that trades a little flexibility for mana efficiency while still being able to counter commanders. I think I will actually give this card a try over Disallow as the difference between holding up 2 mana and 3 mana can be huge.

Veil of Summer: Efficient meta-dependent sort-of hate effect. Probably playable depending on what decks you regularly face.

Flood of Tears: Less mean Cyclonic Rift. There are still probably better alternatives if, for whatever reason, you are averse to playing Cyclonic Rift.

Lotus Field: unless you are running a lot of ways to recur lands from the graveyard, you are probably better off running the bounce lands.

M20 gave us a few things to think about. What are your thoughts? Did I completely miss some sweet tech? Any of these cards spark your interest?