Well, you are running a primer and I am literally telling you that there are people, especially in my area, that do not use Partial Paris mulligans. Given that it is the normal MtG mulligan that we're using, I'd say it isn't that outlandish. You can be combative with me if you want and insinuate I'm a liar, but if you are making deck choices based on the fact that you play with Partial Paris mulligans, I think it is reasonable to include how you would run the deck if you don't play with PP. It's kind of the literal job of a primer. It is supposed to teach and instruct and cover just about everything; that is why you get the tag.
Woah woah woah, clam down Riven. I wasn't implying anything, nor being "combative". I meant what I said very literally: I find the whole thing very interesting. I wonder what the catalyst might have been for an entire area to stick to Paris mulligans, rather than Partial Paris. I'm inclined to assume that what you're seeing there is the exception and not the norm, but I could be wrong.
Either way, that doesn't change the fact that playing without Partial Paris mulligans constitutes a variant rule set, and I don't think it's necessary or important to address variant rule sets in a primer thread based on "official" multiplayer EDH. That would be like if I were to add a French variant of the list. It would be interesting information, perhaps, but not at all necessary or important.
Made a couple of formatting changes/fixes in the primer itself, and fixed a couple of typos and whatnot.
Also, relevant to the previous conversation here, I started a poll in the main Commander forum about whether or not people are using Partial Paris mulligans, which itself had some interesting discussion in it. You can find that here.
The results are showing a pretty large majority on Partial Paris mulligans, which is pretty much what I expected to see. It's interesting to read people's comments there about some of the other variant mulligan rules they're using, though.
These were very recently spoiled for Battle for Zendikar, as part of a new cycle of dual lands with basic types. I'm assuming/hoping that the other five, the enemy coloured ones, will be in the second set.
I really like these lands, and I'm already thinking about what I'll be cutting for them. Having another cycle of lands with basic types will be sweet.
What I've been thinking so far:
Cut the core duals (Glacial Fortress, Sunpetal Grove, Hinterland Harbor) - These new duals are probably upgrades over these, but the core duals DO get better with having even more basic typed lands.
Cut the painful or less reliable triple colour lands (City of Brass, Mana Confluence, Reflecting Pool) - I don't think that this swap is either an upgrade or a downgrade, just different. Requires a bit more thought, though.
Potentially cut all of the above, in favour of the new duals and a few more basic lands to make them come in untapped a little more frequently.
Also, I've noticed that the Allies we've seen so far seem to affect more than just other Allies. For example, Hero of Goma Fada gives ALL your creatures indestructible, not just your Allies. I'm really hoping that all the Allies in this set will function this way, and that maybe we'll get some more sweet ETB creatures that synergize super well with clones, the way that Harmonic Sliver does.
I love the new "discount double check" lands as well. I don't think I'd cut the core set duals though. To me, those are some of the best duals available, especially since they come in untapped if you have a basic of the set type, or any of your shocks or original duals. They have a lower threshold to be brought in untapped than those checking for 2 basics, imo, which might be harder in a 3 color deck. I'd look at them as being better than fast lands, bounce lands, pain lands, guild gates, and temples, but not shocks, ABUR duals, core duals, and fetches.
Hero would be better if he had flash. Giving indestructible benefits more if you are an aggro deck and/or care about your creatures living through combat, since it is only on your turn. Generally, with an ETB value list, you don't care so much if your creatures die until late game. So it's a little more situational, albeit cheaper, than OG Avacyn.
I love the new "discount double check" lands as well. I don't think I'd cut the core set duals though. To me, those are some of the best duals available, especially since they come in untapped if you have a basic of the set type, or any of your shocks or original duals. They have a lower threshold to be brought in untapped than those checking for 2 basics, imo, which might be harder in a 3 color deck. I'd look at them as being better than fast lands, bounce lands, pain lands, guild gates, and temples, but not shocks, ABUR duals, core duals, and fetches.
Hero would be better if he had flash. Giving indestructible benefits more if you are an aggro deck and/or care about your creatures living. Generally, with an ETB value list, you don't care so much if your creatures die until late game. So it's a little more situational, albeit cheaper, than OG Avacyn.
I was thinking the exact same thing about Hero of Goma Fada. Flash would make him worth considering, without it he's meh. I was just pointing him out because of the way they seem to be doing the new Allies. All the only ones only ever affected other Allies and themselves, which made them essentially worthless outside of a dedicated Allies deck. This new design bodes well for all ETB decks, though.
I definitely disagree with you about the core duals being better than the BFZ duals, though. Yes, the core duals will probably come in untapped more frequently in a 3 colour deck, especially with my relatively low basics count, but I think they're inherently better purely based on the ability to get them with fetches and Wood Elves/Yavimaya Dryad.
That seems pretty fair. If I were running either of those I'd definitely be cutting them first.
I'm not a fan of the SOM duals in EDH in general, unless you're playing a super aggressive list, and even then it's iffy. The Temples are sweet, but I don't really like them outside of a slower draw-go type of deck.
If you have a deck fully to the teeth with ABU, Shocks, Fetches... I think the Glacial Fortress, Sunpetal Grove, Hinterland Harbor cycle is superior. They trigger off of the other fetchable duels and not just the basics. If you are looking at a list with any sense of a budget landbase I think the BFZ duals are stronger.
The check lands are strong because they come in untapped more frequently. Assuming you have original ABU duals and shocks the new BFZ lands will be a lower priority than both of the other two types of duals. That is low enough in my mind to make it be to the point where you are likely not fetching them with any sort of need for them.
The BFZ cycle is more interesting in my mind in a 2 color deck where there are less duals you can fetch. They are also interesting in Standard and Modern which is likely where their prices will really be based on use.
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If you have a deck fully to the teeth with ABU, Shocks, Fetches... I think the Glacial Fortress, Sunpetal Grove, Hinterland Harbor cycle is superior. They trigger off of the other fetchable duels and not just the basics. If you are looking at a list with any sense of a budget landbase I think the BFZ duals are stronger.
The check lands are strong because they come in untapped more frequently. Assuming you have original ABU duals and shocks the new BFZ lands will be a lower priority than both of the other two types of duals. That is low enough in my mind to make it be to the point where you are likely not fetching them with any sort of need for them.
The BFZ cycle is more interesting in my mind in a 2 color deck where there are less duals you can fetch. They are also interesting in Standard and Modern which is likely where their prices will really be based on use.
See, I definitely disagree. Even if the core duals come in untapped more frequently, basic types on duals is just incredibly powerful. There are so many things that can take advantage of that (not just here, but in general), and they just add more to overall consistency.
They don't though. Shocks and ABU duals are still going to be the target of early game fetches.
In the first 5 turns of the game what are you going to fetch given the option? ABU duals if you need the land untapped. Shocks are also superior in the early game assuming you have ABU duals because a shock can come in tapped or untapped for very little downside in this format where as the BFZ lands don't give you an option on their tapped or untapped status. BFZ are essentially last string dual fetch targets. If you are talking that late in the game then you can be fetching basic lands too just fine. The check lands have the advantage of having a broader base in which they can come into play untapped for.
BFZ are going to be inferior to ABU and Shocklands assuming you have all of them. If you lack ABU lands then they become possibly more powerful than shocks but definitely not if you have an ideal landbase. I am saying that they are low enough string tutor targets that having them be a tutor target is likely not really that much of an asset in an ideal landbase 3 color deck. The checks have more chance to come in untapped than the BFZ duals do and that is why I think they are superior. If I planned to fetch them sooner in the game it would be one thing but they are really only superior in a deck that lacks ABU duals.
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They don't though. Shocks and ABU duals are still going to be the target of early game fetches.
In the first 5 turns of the game what are you going to fetch given the option? ABU duals if you need the land untapped. Shocks are also superior in the early game assuming you have ABU duals because a shock can come in tapped or untapped for very little downside in this format where as the BFZ lands don't give you an option on their tapped or untapped status. BFZ are essentially last string dual fetch targets. If you are talking that late in the game then you can be fetching basic lands too just fine. The check lands have the advantage of having a broader base in which they can come into play untapped for.
BFZ are going to be inferior to ABU and Shocklands assuming you have all of them. If you lack ABU lands then they become possibly more powerful than shocks but definitely not if you have an ideal landbase. I am saying that they are low enough string tutor targets that having them be a tutor target is likely not really that much of an asset in an ideal landbase 3 color deck. The checks have more chance to come in untapped than the BFZ duals do and that is why I think they are superior. If I planned to fetch them sooner in the game it would be one thing but they are really only superior in a deck that lacks ABU duals.
You keep talking about how much better the ABU duals and shocks are than the new BFZ duals. That's not even up for debate. Nobody, at any point, said that these were better than the ABU duals or shocks.
What I AM saying is that they're better than the core duals.
Turn 1, if you don't have a 1 drop, you currently always fetch for a tapped shock. Fetching for a BFZ dual is much better in this case.
Core duals are absolutely worthless when you want to be abusing something like a Wood Elves, or fetch + Crucible of Worlds. You only get a few uses before the usefulness disappears, and that's greatly decreased if you just naturally draw some of your targets.
As has been said by many people several times before, there are many, many times when you are cracking a fetch at the end of an opponent's turn, and just like the turn 1 fetch with no 1 drop, you generally go for the shock in tapped. Once again, the BFZ dual is better for this.
The core duals cannot be fetched at all. You can't easily filter them out of the deck, you can't take advantage of them easily, etc. There are multiple ways in this deck to abuse these basic types duals, and having more of them is way, way better.
Having two basic lands in play, for a three colour deck, is very far from being unreasonable. Especially since, if absolutely necessary, if you're sitting with a BFZ dual in hand and really need it to come in untapped, you can always use any of the above methods of fetching these to just fetch basics instead.
As I've mentioned, putting basic types on nonbasic lands is inherently very powerful, which is why WotC has talked very many times about how hesitant they are to do it, and do it only very infrequently. That inherent power level applies to EDH just as much as it applies to 60 card formats. Even more so, maybe, given the singleton nature of the format.
I think the BFZ discount double checks do a good job of providing dual land targets for things like fetches, Wood Elves, et al., but I don't know that they just outclass the check lands. If you play a BFZ dual on turn one, you get an untapped check land on turn 2. Hitting your colors on turn 3 with Jenara is important and having a CitP Tapped land can really kill your tempo. These lands have immense value, but their abusability via fetches and creatures only exists if you don't own ABU duals (like me). Since I only have the shocks, these lands are very good for me being able to tutor up land fixing with basic land types, but the fact that they will come in tapped more often than a check land cannot be understated. They check for basic lands, not basic land types, which means that they can slow you down. There are intended to be trade-offs with these kinds of things, but you aren't running most of the cards you mentioned that make the presence of basic land types that much more advantageous, especially if you have ABUs and Shocks already. While I think they probably should be included in the list if possible, cutting a check land for them is probably not the best choice if you can avoid it. Looking at your list, I'd consider anything that comes into play tapped unconditionally, the artifact lands, any utility land that isn't essential (dunno how much Boseiju helps you), and maybe the all-color pain lands.
I think the BFZ discount double checks do a good job of providing dual land targets for things like fetches, Wood Elves, et al., but I don't know that they just outclass the check lands. If you play a BFZ dual on turn one, you get an untapped check land on turn 2. Hitting your colors on turn 3 with Jenara is important and having a CitP Tapped land can really kill your tempo. These lands have immense value, but their abusability via fetches and creatures only exists if you don't own ABU duals (like me). Since I only have the shocks, these lands are very good for me being able to tutor up land fixing with basic land types, but the fact that they will come in tapped more often than a check land cannot be understated. They check for basic lands, not basic land types, which means that they can slow you down. There are intended to be trade-offs with these kinds of things, but you aren't running most of the cards you mentioned that make the presence of basic land types that much more advantageous, especially if you have ABUs and Shocks already. While I think they probably should be included in the list if possible, cutting a check land for them is probably not the best choice if you can avoid it. Looking at your list, I'd consider anything that comes into play tapped unconditionally, the artifact lands, any utility land that isn't essential (dunno how much Boseiju helps you), and maybe the all-color pain lands.
Honestly, I'm more inclined to play both the BFZ duals AND the core duals, purely because the more basic land typed lands you have, the better the core duals get.
I have already said that I've also been considering cutting those painful lands for them, which is an option.
It absolutely baffles me that you're playing both Tezzeret, the Seeker and Trinket Mage, and don't run the artifact lands, and even suggest cutting them.
Also, I've considered cutting Boseiju, Who Shelters All a couple of times. If the density of counterspells in my meta ever decreases I probably will cut it, along with Cavern of Souls, but for now they're not likely going anywhere.
Lol, those artifact lands and Dryad Arbor are poor choices. They'll get destroyed unless your meta plays no wipes. The BFZ lands are fairly limited in usefulness.
I just don't see things being uncounterable in a all value deck as being that important. And I don't run artifact lands because I never find myself ramping with Tezz/Trinket outside of Sol Ring and they will get blown up by a lot of board wipes or any extra "destroy artifact" trigger. They just aren't that worth it for the small niche that I don't ever find myself even wanting them for while risking getting set back significantly.
Also, do you need both Wasteland and Strip Mine? I just run one, personally. Without Crucible, running both doesn't make much difference and takes up a colorless land slot in a 3-color list.
Artifact Lands - they present a lot of liability with mass artifact / enchantment sweepers. Even with the option of Tezzeret fetching them I think they contain too much liability for my likes.
BFZ duals - I think they are good. I am just establishing that I would not cut the check lands for them. I think they fall a little behind the check lands in usability.
As to how many Strip Mine effects, it comes to personal preference as well as what his meta runs. I just ran one myself but I also only ran one creature (Acidic Slime) that could remove lands. It comes down to how many targets and how often you need to use these effects.
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Artifact Lands - they present a lot of liability with mass artifact / enchantment sweepers. Even with the option of Tezzeret fetching them I think they contain too much liability for my likes.
BFZ duals - I think they are good. I am just establishing that I would not cut the check lands for them. I think they fall a little behind the check lands in usability.
As to how many Strip Mine effects, it comes to personal preference as well as what his meta runs. I just ran one myself but I also only ran one creature (Acidic Slime) that could remove lands. It comes down to how many targets and how often you need to use these effects.
I won't say that the artifact lands don't come with some amount of risk, because they definitely do. In my experience, though, the benefits easily outweigh the risks. An Austere Command or Bane of Progress may catch them every once in a while, but usually I don't care, as they've frequently already done their job. Stray targeted artifact destruction will very, very rarely hit them, as there's almost always a better target on the table, and most people know better than to waste any one-offs on them just for something to do. The only time it's really an issue is in a scenario like a token deck abusing an Aura Shards, but that's not something I generally ever let happen.
I still disagree with you about your assessment of the BFZ duals, but I guess we'll see in the coming months.
Also, do you need both Wasteland and Strip Mine? I just run one, personally. Without Crucible, running both doesn't make much difference and takes up a colorless land slot in a 3-color list.
There are better, more efficient ways to ramp without the vulnerabilities you're exposed to by using artifact lands.
Whether or not there are better ways to ramp isn't relevant. Part of the deck's insane versatility and resiliency comes from the diversity and redundancy of options, and playing the artifact lands adds to that.
That's ridiculous. Of course it's relevant. Resiliency is not watching half your land base go boom to a Bane or O-stone. I don't know how you can say artifact lands adds to your versatility when you don't even play an artifact theme. It's mindboggling.
That's ridiculous. Of course it's relevant. Resiliency is not watching half your land base go boom to a Bane or O-stone. I don't know how you can say artifact lands adds to your versatility when you don't even play an artifact theme. It's mindboggling.
1) Oblivion Stone does not destroy the artifact lands.
2) You seem to be confused, so let me help you out.
Quote from Dictionary.com »
versatile
[vur-suh-tl or, esp. British, -tahyl]
adjective
1. capable of or adapted for turning easily from one to another of various tasks, fields of endeavor, etc.:
2. having or capable of many uses:
Having the artifact lands increases versatility because it allows my Trinket Mage and Tezzeret the Seeker to go find lands when I need them to. It allows allows me to use Academy Ruins to return a land if I just really need a land drop and there's one in my graveyard. Etc, etc. Whether or not I'm running an artifact theme has absolutely nothing to do with this.
3) No, it's not relevant, because I'm not talking about replacing other "better, more efficient" ramp with artifact lands, I'm talking about running them in addition.
4) If a couple of artifact lands make up "half your land base", you're probably doing something wrong and losing that game anyway.
Call me crazy, but seems like this thread ends up being a veritable shouting match rather than a primer discussion.
I think the artifact lands are a bad idea, as does ISB and Swift. Zen disagrees, and I have doubts about convincing him otherwise. And that's fine. That's his business.
Anyway, what do you guys think about the new artifact that exiles power 5 and above? It avoids most of our creatures and can really hurt big green stompy.deck. Probably not worth it but the idea is interesting.
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Call me crazy, but seems like this thread ends up being a veritable shouting match rather than a primer discussion.
I think the artifact lands are a bad idea, as does ISB and Swift. Zen disagrees, and I have doubts about convincing him otherwise. And that's fine. That's his business.
Anyway, what do you guys think about the new artifact that exiles power 5 and above? It avoids most of our creatures and can really hurt big green stompy.deck. Probably not worth it but the idea is interesting.
You're on point with your observations. I wish this would be more of adiscussion of the merits rather than a defense of personal choices never being wrong.
Personally, I'm not a huge fan of prison effects like that, especially en masse, at least through the lens of this deck. Bant has answers to everything so I think it's a bit outclassed by some of our current board wipes. I do think it has great potential in token lists and artifact decks that can replay it. I don't have enough issues facing down big creatures, but if you see a lot of them, I could see you testing it out. My biggest concern is what the fallout looks like when it gets blown up.
So far BFZ has a couple cards I'm considering for my Jenara build:
Canopy Vista and Prairie Stream are shoe-ins, obviously. Even better for me since I don't have the ABUR duals yet but even if I did I'd probably still put them in.
I'm debating on Kiora, Master of the Depths. Right now in my testing she's replacing Solemn Simulacrum and she's doing very well. Being able to give Jenara or any other creature to protect her pseudo-vigilance is really good, and she untaps a land that you might have used to give Jenara a +1/+1 counter or equip a sword. I've also consistently been able to get 2 cards off of her -2 ability whenever I use it. The major downside to her (like all planeswalkers) is she's harder to search for and recur. But so far I'm pretty impressed.
When I first saw Greenwarden of Murasa, I thought it was pretty much an auto-include, but now I'm not so sure. One of the advantages of Eternal Witness is that because she's so cheap to cast, you often get to use the card you just got back after you play her. She's also able to be recurred by both Reveillark AND Sun Titan, and when you 'clamp her you get to draw 2 cards immediately. None of those criteria fit with the greenwarden. It's still awesome and I'm definitely going to test it more, but I'm on the fence about it as of now.
So far BFZ has a couple cards I'm considering for my Jenara build:
Canopy Vista and Prairie Stream are shoe-ins, obviously. Even better for me since I don't have the ABUR duals yet but even if I did I'd probably still put them in.
I'm debating on Kiora, Master of the Depths. Right now in my testing she's replacing Solemn Simulacrum and she's doing very well. Being able to give Jenara or any other creature to protect her pseudo-vigilance is really good, and she untaps a land that you might have used to give Jenara a +1/+1 counter or equip a sword. I've also consistently been able to get 2 cards off of her -2 ability whenever I use it. The major downside to her (like all planeswalkers) is she's harder to search for and recur. But so far I'm pretty impressed.
When I first saw Greenwarden of Murasa, I thought it was pretty much an auto-include, but now I'm not so sure. One of the advantages of Eternal Witness is that because she's so cheap to cast, you often get to use the card you just got back after you play her. She's also able to be recurred by both Reveillark AND Sun Titan, and when you 'clamp her you get to draw 2 cards immediately. None of those criteria fit with the greenwarden. It's still awesome and I'm definitely going to test it more, but I'm on the fence about it as of now.
Definitely putting the lands in. Basic land types with potential to come in untapped is great and, not having original duals, I have the room.
I think Kiora is good. She provides card advantage or Pseudo-ramp. The creature untap doesn't do much without tap abilities (although it can be nice) and the fight mechanic doesn't do much, although your 3 9/9 tokens get to fight as they enter the battlefield, which is a bit of self-synergy giving you "destroy 3 target creatures and get 3 9/9 tokens, which on its own would be pretty decent. Later in the game when you are playing bombs, the fight could matter, but I'd never count on getting to ult with her. She's the kind of card that I think would flourish in this list as she does most all the things you want: Ramp, Card Advantage, and Card Quality via her creature/land search. I'm hesitant to replace Solemn Simulacrum for her though as he is guaranteed actual ramp, a card draw cantrip, and can be abused via Lark, Sun Titan, Academy Ruins, Birthing Pod, and tutored with Tezzeret, which is sometimes relevant. My biggest issue is while I love Kiora, I don't know what I'd put in for her, making adding her a bit challenging.
I'm pretty much in the same boat with the Warden. His body isn't that great at 6 mana (DEN is better, even), although his effect is great. You can't abuse him too much, so you might as well take the exile trigger when he dies. I'd always tutor E-Wit first and don't think using a 6 mana on a potential double E-Wit effect (with limited sac outlets, it becomes more unreliable) is worth a premium 6 drop slot in the list. He's definitely worth consideration to some degree and is a good card at the top of the curve if anyone was unhappy with what they currently had there. Leaves the battlefield value can be beneficial in letting him get through though, being fair. It's more a personal preference than anything, but I don't think he makes the grade for me.
Great topics though, these were the cards that I was most interested in from the set as well. Lumbering Falls also seems like an include just because manlands are pretty valuable for clutch situations and since I run 3 swords, his hexproof can be pretty relevant for him getting in for a trigger.
Either way, that doesn't change the fact that playing without Partial Paris mulligans constitutes a variant rule set, and I don't think it's necessary or important to address variant rule sets in a primer thread based on "official" multiplayer EDH. That would be like if I were to add a French variant of the list. It would be interesting information, perhaps, but not at all necessary or important.
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Current Commanders: Derevi, Empyrial Tactician (coming soon) | [Primer] Sedris, the Traitor King | Maelstrom Wanderer | Najeela, the Blade Blossom | Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow
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Retired Commanders: [Primer] Jenara, Asura of War | [Primer] Ghave, Guru of Spores | Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury | Saskia the Unyielding | Sydri, Galvanic Genius
Also, relevant to the previous conversation here, I started a poll in the main Commander forum about whether or not people are using Partial Paris mulligans, which itself had some interesting discussion in it. You can find that here.
The results are showing a pretty large majority on Partial Paris mulligans, which is pretty much what I expected to see. It's interesting to read people's comments there about some of the other variant mulligan rules they're using, though.
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Current Commanders: Derevi, Empyrial Tactician (coming soon) | [Primer] Sedris, the Traitor King | Maelstrom Wanderer | Najeela, the Blade Blossom | Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow
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Retired Commanders: [Primer] Jenara, Asura of War | [Primer] Ghave, Guru of Spores | Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury | Saskia the Unyielding | Sydri, Galvanic Genius
These were very recently spoiled for Battle for Zendikar, as part of a new cycle of dual lands with basic types. I'm assuming/hoping that the other five, the enemy coloured ones, will be in the second set.
I really like these lands, and I'm already thinking about what I'll be cutting for them. Having another cycle of lands with basic types will be sweet.
What I've been thinking so far:
Also, I've noticed that the Allies we've seen so far seem to affect more than just other Allies. For example, Hero of Goma Fada gives ALL your creatures indestructible, not just your Allies. I'm really hoping that all the Allies in this set will function this way, and that maybe we'll get some more sweet ETB creatures that synergize super well with clones, the way that Harmonic Sliver does.
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Current Commanders: Derevi, Empyrial Tactician (coming soon) | [Primer] Sedris, the Traitor King | Maelstrom Wanderer | Najeela, the Blade Blossom | Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow
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Retired Commanders: [Primer] Jenara, Asura of War | [Primer] Ghave, Guru of Spores | Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury | Saskia the Unyielding | Sydri, Galvanic Genius
Hero would be better if he had flash. Giving indestructible benefits more if you are an aggro deck and/or care about your creatures living through combat, since it is only on your turn. Generally, with an ETB value list, you don't care so much if your creatures die until late game. So it's a little more situational, albeit cheaper, than OG Avacyn.
EDH:
G[cEDH] Selvala, Heart of the StormG
URW[cEDH] Narset, the Last AirmericanURW
GWUSt. Jenara, the ArchangelGWU
UBGrimgrin, Chaos MarineUB
GOmnath, Mana BaronG
URWNarset, Justice League AmericaURW
GWUBAtraxa, Countess of CountersGWUB
GWUEstrid, Enbantress PrimeGWU
I definitely disagree with you about the core duals being better than the BFZ duals, though. Yes, the core duals will probably come in untapped more frequently in a 3 colour deck, especially with my relatively low basics count, but I think they're inherently better purely based on the ability to get them with fetches and Wood Elves/Yavimaya Dryad.
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Current Commanders: Derevi, Empyrial Tactician (coming soon) | [Primer] Sedris, the Traitor King | Maelstrom Wanderer | Najeela, the Blade Blossom | Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow
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Retired Commanders: [Primer] Jenara, Asura of War | [Primer] Ghave, Guru of Spores | Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury | Saskia the Unyielding | Sydri, Galvanic Genius
In my list, for example, I'm cutting Razorverge Thicket and Temple of Enlightenment for them.
EDH:
G[cEDH] Selvala, Heart of the StormG
URW[cEDH] Narset, the Last AirmericanURW
GWUSt. Jenara, the ArchangelGWU
UBGrimgrin, Chaos MarineUB
GOmnath, Mana BaronG
URWNarset, Justice League AmericaURW
GWUBAtraxa, Countess of CountersGWUB
GWUEstrid, Enbantress PrimeGWU
I'm not a fan of the SOM duals in EDH in general, unless you're playing a super aggressive list, and even then it's iffy. The Temples are sweet, but I don't really like them outside of a slower draw-go type of deck.
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Current Commanders: Derevi, Empyrial Tactician (coming soon) | [Primer] Sedris, the Traitor King | Maelstrom Wanderer | Najeela, the Blade Blossom | Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow
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Retired Commanders: [Primer] Jenara, Asura of War | [Primer] Ghave, Guru of Spores | Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury | Saskia the Unyielding | Sydri, Galvanic Genius
The check lands are strong because they come in untapped more frequently. Assuming you have original ABU duals and shocks the new BFZ lands will be a lower priority than both of the other two types of duals. That is low enough in my mind to make it be to the point where you are likely not fetching them with any sort of need for them.
The BFZ cycle is more interesting in my mind in a 2 color deck where there are less duals you can fetch. They are also interesting in Standard and Modern which is likely where their prices will really be based on use.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
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Current Commanders: Derevi, Empyrial Tactician (coming soon) | [Primer] Sedris, the Traitor King | Maelstrom Wanderer | Najeela, the Blade Blossom | Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow
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Retired Commanders: [Primer] Jenara, Asura of War | [Primer] Ghave, Guru of Spores | Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury | Saskia the Unyielding | Sydri, Galvanic Genius
In the first 5 turns of the game what are you going to fetch given the option? ABU duals if you need the land untapped. Shocks are also superior in the early game assuming you have ABU duals because a shock can come in tapped or untapped for very little downside in this format where as the BFZ lands don't give you an option on their tapped or untapped status. BFZ are essentially last string dual fetch targets. If you are talking that late in the game then you can be fetching basic lands too just fine. The check lands have the advantage of having a broader base in which they can come into play untapped for.
BFZ are going to be inferior to ABU and Shocklands assuming you have all of them. If you lack ABU lands then they become possibly more powerful than shocks but definitely not if you have an ideal landbase. I am saying that they are low enough string tutor targets that having them be a tutor target is likely not really that much of an asset in an ideal landbase 3 color deck. The checks have more chance to come in untapped than the BFZ duals do and that is why I think they are superior. If I planned to fetch them sooner in the game it would be one thing but they are really only superior in a deck that lacks ABU duals.
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[Modern] Allies
What I AM saying is that they're better than the core duals.
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Current Commanders: Derevi, Empyrial Tactician (coming soon) | [Primer] Sedris, the Traitor King | Maelstrom Wanderer | Najeela, the Blade Blossom | Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow
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Retired Commanders: [Primer] Jenara, Asura of War | [Primer] Ghave, Guru of Spores | Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury | Saskia the Unyielding | Sydri, Galvanic Genius
EDH:
G[cEDH] Selvala, Heart of the StormG
URW[cEDH] Narset, the Last AirmericanURW
GWUSt. Jenara, the ArchangelGWU
UBGrimgrin, Chaos MarineUB
GOmnath, Mana BaronG
URWNarset, Justice League AmericaURW
GWUBAtraxa, Countess of CountersGWUB
GWUEstrid, Enbantress PrimeGWU
I have already said that I've also been considering cutting those painful lands for them, which is an option.
It absolutely baffles me that you're playing both Tezzeret, the Seeker and Trinket Mage, and don't run the artifact lands, and even suggest cutting them.
Also, I've considered cutting Boseiju, Who Shelters All a couple of times. If the density of counterspells in my meta ever decreases I probably will cut it, along with Cavern of Souls, but for now they're not likely going anywhere.
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Current Commanders: Derevi, Empyrial Tactician (coming soon) | [Primer] Sedris, the Traitor King | Maelstrom Wanderer | Najeela, the Blade Blossom | Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow
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Retired Commanders: [Primer] Jenara, Asura of War | [Primer] Ghave, Guru of Spores | Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury | Saskia the Unyielding | Sydri, Galvanic Genius
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
Also, do you need both Wasteland and Strip Mine? I just run one, personally. Without Crucible, running both doesn't make much difference and takes up a colorless land slot in a 3-color list.
EDH:
G[cEDH] Selvala, Heart of the StormG
URW[cEDH] Narset, the Last AirmericanURW
GWUSt. Jenara, the ArchangelGWU
UBGrimgrin, Chaos MarineUB
GOmnath, Mana BaronG
URWNarset, Justice League AmericaURW
GWUBAtraxa, Countess of CountersGWUB
GWUEstrid, Enbantress PrimeGWU
Artifact Lands - they present a lot of liability with mass artifact / enchantment sweepers. Even with the option of Tezzeret fetching them I think they contain too much liability for my likes.
BFZ duals - I think they are good. I am just establishing that I would not cut the check lands for them. I think they fall a little behind the check lands in usability.
As to how many Strip Mine effects, it comes to personal preference as well as what his meta runs. I just ran one myself but I also only ran one creature (Acidic Slime) that could remove lands. It comes down to how many targets and how often you need to use these effects.
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[Modern] Allies
I still disagree with you about your assessment of the BFZ duals, but I guess we'll see in the coming months.
Sun Titan is capable of doing an awfully good Crucible of Worlds impression when you want him to. And yes, I need both Strip Mine and Wasteland.
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Current Commanders: Derevi, Empyrial Tactician (coming soon) | [Primer] Sedris, the Traitor King | Maelstrom Wanderer | Najeela, the Blade Blossom | Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow
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Retired Commanders: [Primer] Jenara, Asura of War | [Primer] Ghave, Guru of Spores | Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury | Saskia the Unyielding | Sydri, Galvanic Genius
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
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Current Commanders: Derevi, Empyrial Tactician (coming soon) | [Primer] Sedris, the Traitor King | Maelstrom Wanderer | Najeela, the Blade Blossom | Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow
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Retired Commanders: [Primer] Jenara, Asura of War | [Primer] Ghave, Guru of Spores | Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury | Saskia the Unyielding | Sydri, Galvanic Genius
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
2) You seem to be confused, so let me help you out.
Having the artifact lands increases versatility because it allows my Trinket Mage and Tezzeret the Seeker to go find lands when I need them to. It allows allows me to use Academy Ruins to return a land if I just really need a land drop and there's one in my graveyard. Etc, etc. Whether or not I'm running an artifact theme has absolutely nothing to do with this.
3) No, it's not relevant, because I'm not talking about replacing other "better, more efficient" ramp with artifact lands, I'm talking about running them in addition.
4) If a couple of artifact lands make up "half your land base", you're probably doing something wrong and losing that game anyway.
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Current Commanders: Derevi, Empyrial Tactician (coming soon) | [Primer] Sedris, the Traitor King | Maelstrom Wanderer | Najeela, the Blade Blossom | Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow
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Retired Commanders: [Primer] Jenara, Asura of War | [Primer] Ghave, Guru of Spores | Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury | Saskia the Unyielding | Sydri, Galvanic Genius
I think the artifact lands are a bad idea, as does ISB and Swift. Zen disagrees, and I have doubts about convincing him otherwise. And that's fine. That's his business.
Anyway, what do you guys think about the new artifact that exiles power 5 and above? It avoids most of our creatures and can really hurt big green stompy.deck. Probably not worth it but the idea is interesting.
Regular 450 unpowered cube (with some custom cards) - 450 Unpowered
You're on point with your observations. I wish this would be more of adiscussion of the merits rather than a defense of personal choices never being wrong.
Personally, I'm not a huge fan of prison effects like that, especially en masse, at least through the lens of this deck. Bant has answers to everything so I think it's a bit outclassed by some of our current board wipes. I do think it has great potential in token lists and artifact decks that can replay it. I don't have enough issues facing down big creatures, but if you see a lot of them, I could see you testing it out. My biggest concern is what the fallout looks like when it gets blown up.
EDH:
G[cEDH] Selvala, Heart of the StormG
URW[cEDH] Narset, the Last AirmericanURW
GWUSt. Jenara, the ArchangelGWU
UBGrimgrin, Chaos MarineUB
GOmnath, Mana BaronG
URWNarset, Justice League AmericaURW
GWUBAtraxa, Countess of CountersGWUB
GWUEstrid, Enbantress PrimeGWU
Canopy Vista and Prairie Stream are shoe-ins, obviously. Even better for me since I don't have the ABUR duals yet but even if I did I'd probably still put them in.
I'm debating on Kiora, Master of the Depths. Right now in my testing she's replacing Solemn Simulacrum and she's doing very well. Being able to give Jenara or any other creature to protect her pseudo-vigilance is really good, and she untaps a land that you might have used to give Jenara a +1/+1 counter or equip a sword. I've also consistently been able to get 2 cards off of her -2 ability whenever I use it. The major downside to her (like all planeswalkers) is she's harder to search for and recur. But so far I'm pretty impressed.
When I first saw Greenwarden of Murasa, I thought it was pretty much an auto-include, but now I'm not so sure. One of the advantages of Eternal Witness is that because she's so cheap to cast, you often get to use the card you just got back after you play her. She's also able to be recurred by both Reveillark AND Sun Titan, and when you 'clamp her you get to draw 2 cards immediately. None of those criteria fit with the greenwarden. It's still awesome and I'm definitely going to test it more, but I'm on the fence about it as of now.
UWU/W BlinkUW
BMono-Black ControlB
Commander:
GWUJenaraGWU
BGeth MBCB
RGXenagosRG
WUBSharuumWUB (retired)
Modern:
xAffinityx (starting)
Standard:
Ha! That's a good one.
Definitely putting the lands in. Basic land types with potential to come in untapped is great and, not having original duals, I have the room.
I think Kiora is good. She provides card advantage or Pseudo-ramp. The creature untap doesn't do much without tap abilities (although it can be nice) and the fight mechanic doesn't do much, although your 3 9/9 tokens get to fight as they enter the battlefield, which is a bit of self-synergy giving you "destroy 3 target creatures and get 3 9/9 tokens, which on its own would be pretty decent. Later in the game when you are playing bombs, the fight could matter, but I'd never count on getting to ult with her. She's the kind of card that I think would flourish in this list as she does most all the things you want: Ramp, Card Advantage, and Card Quality via her creature/land search. I'm hesitant to replace Solemn Simulacrum for her though as he is guaranteed actual ramp, a card draw cantrip, and can be abused via Lark, Sun Titan, Academy Ruins, Birthing Pod, and tutored with Tezzeret, which is sometimes relevant. My biggest issue is while I love Kiora, I don't know what I'd put in for her, making adding her a bit challenging.
I'm pretty much in the same boat with the Warden. His body isn't that great at 6 mana (DEN is better, even), although his effect is great. You can't abuse him too much, so you might as well take the exile trigger when he dies. I'd always tutor E-Wit first and don't think using a 6 mana on a potential double E-Wit effect (with limited sac outlets, it becomes more unreliable) is worth a premium 6 drop slot in the list. He's definitely worth consideration to some degree and is a good card at the top of the curve if anyone was unhappy with what they currently had there. Leaves the battlefield value can be beneficial in letting him get through though, being fair. It's more a personal preference than anything, but I don't think he makes the grade for me.
Great topics though, these were the cards that I was most interested in from the set as well. Lumbering Falls also seems like an include just because manlands are pretty valuable for clutch situations and since I run 3 swords, his hexproof can be pretty relevant for him getting in for a trigger.
EDH:
G[cEDH] Selvala, Heart of the StormG
URW[cEDH] Narset, the Last AirmericanURW
GWUSt. Jenara, the ArchangelGWU
UBGrimgrin, Chaos MarineUB
GOmnath, Mana BaronG
URWNarset, Justice League AmericaURW
GWUBAtraxa, Countess of CountersGWUB
GWUEstrid, Enbantress PrimeGWU