MTG Salvation

Cool to see the list. Since it originally started being discussed a while back I also changed to Derevi because I was rather disappointed with the Atraxa list I made, and was also underwhelmed by Jenara the last few times I played her. The list I came up with seems somewhat similar to yours Zen, albeit quite a lot lower in terms of creature count. I've been enjoying it so far though, it's got a lot of resilience which I like. Here's mine for anyone interested or who needs some ideas:



Shalai is definitely a creature I'd like to make space for, since she seems like the best thing to use in lieu of Jenara as they have such similarities, although Shalai's additional upsides seem significant.

Quote from Kitsune_18 »

One land that has actually been great for me is Minamo, School at Water's Edge. Admittedly there are only a few truly useful targets in my list, but sometimes untapping Jenara, Asura of War or Kor Haven can be the difference-maker. Despite the low number of targets, since it taps for U, it's pretty easy to slot in over an Island if you can afford the lower basic count.

I love Minamo. LOVE it. But I sadly had to cut it for the mana consistency I wanted. I suppose I could swap Kor Haven or possibly Cavern of Souls for it, but I just don't have a great many Legends with tap abilities. Azami is about the only one I have other than the two you mentioned.

Quote from Kitsune_18 »

It's nice to finally see the list! Wow, it's much more similar to your Jenara list than I was imagining, which is kind of nice actually. Just skimming over it, a couple cards that intrigue me are Shalai, Voice of Plenty and Archon of Valor's Reach. Have you had good results with them? Are they cards you'd consider adding to Jenara if you still played her?

Quote from benjameenbear »

The list looks solid, ZenN. How has Shalai, Voice of Plenty been for you? I like the board-wide Hexproof she grants a lot and she incidentally becomes an infinite mana outlet as well. Combined with her CMC and her stats, and I think she's a solid card.

Quote from DeadPresident2910 »

Shalai is definitely a creature I'd like to make space for, since she seems like the best thing to use in lieu of Jenara as they have such similarities, although Shalai's additional upsides seem significant.

I've been pretty happy with both of them, and I would definitely consider them for Jenara too. Shalai does get a bit of an edge in Derevi, though, since her ability is another outlet for the potentially massive amounts of mana generated mid-combat with Derevi's untap. Archon has been sweet as a win con. It's a solid beater on its own that is great for completely turning off certain decks (so many dedicated artifact, enchantment, and planeswalker decks out there). I really like using it in conjunction with clones, to shut off multiple card types at once. I one time even managed to have FIVE ON THE TABLE AT ONCE, shutting off everything but creatures and then just closing out the game with 25 flying vigilance trample power in the air. Obviously that's an incredibly rare scenario, but it was hilarious.

As I mentioned before, this is really still the same deck, just with a new general and a few cards added in to take advantage of Derevi's abilities. It's a little leaner and a little more aggressive (to make up for the general herself being less aggressive), but otherwise it's got the same vibe to it.

I'm sure you guys don't need me to point them out, but the primary things that are mostly only in here to take advantage of Derevi's ability are:

• Gaea's Cradle
  
• Bloom Tender
  
• Azami, Lady of Scrolls
  
• Gilded Lotus

I did play with a few others, but those are the ones that stuck. And, sort of indirectly, Kiora's Follower is there because more sweet untap targets makes it a sweeter option.

Blood Tender, of course, is the metalhead sibling of Bloom Tender.

I think that Alchemist's Refuge has a little more play in it than you guys have been giving credit for. It also works excellently with the mid-range-y toolbox creatures that this deck thrives on. For the ones that don't have flash, giving them flash can be a huge edge. I.e. if you are tutoring a creature combo piece a la Mirror Entity with your Recruiter of the Guard you may want to wait until EoT on the opponent before you's turn to not tip off your play. Likewise, this works for Reclamation Sage, Harmonic Sliver, Gilded Drake, and Cataclysmic Gearhulk, giving you additional instant-speed removal in your list. Admittedly, it is a mana dump, and is probably something I could cut without losing a ton in this list, but it does allow for some cute interactions more than just instant speed clones, which can also be disruptive.

Quote from RivenEsq »

Blood Tender, of course, is the metalhead sibling of Bloom Tender.

Hahahahah, whoops. Fixed that.

Quote from RivenEsq »

I think that Alchemist's Refuge has a little more play in it than you guys have been giving credit for. It also works excellently with the mid-range-y toolbox creatures that this deck thrives on. For the ones that don't have flash, giving them flash can be a huge edge. I.e. if you are tutoring a creature combo piece a la Mirror Entity with your Recruiter of the Guard you may want to wait until EoT on the opponent before you's turn to not tip off your play. Likewise, this works for Reclamation Sage, Harmonic Sliver, Gilded Drake, and Cataclysmic Gearhulk, giving you additional instant-speed removal in your list. Admittedly, it is a mana dump, and is probably something I could cut without losing a ton in this list, but it does allow for some cute interactions more than just instant speed clones, which can also be disruptive.

Agree with all this. It was also a little added value when I was playing Ephara, God of the Polis, which I'm sure some people still do.

Quote from benjameenbear »

On the topic of utility lands:
Since Tri-Color decks are VERY color-hungry by nature, it's absolutely essential that if you ARE running nonbasics that don't add colors to your mana pool they need to be seriously amazing. Like, Volrath's Stronghold kind of amazing. And, unfortunately, I don't see many options in Bant colors that are stunning to me. Maaaaybe Ancient Tomb, but even that's a stretch. Kor Haven is probably the only one I might consider for the deck. My problem with Alchemist's Refuge is that it requires a signficant amount of mana to take advantage of, which often leaves you unable to protect your spell from a Counterspell effect. This can be a pro, since you might be able to force the Blue player to tap out during their turn and cast your REAL spell uncontested. Or it can be a con, since it does require that you commit a significant amount of mana to casting the spell.

Academy Ruins is more important to me than Alchemist's Refuge. I'll admit that might be psychological, as it is very difficult to get one's Top put into the graveyard. I do have other artifacts that I dig. Pod is one means of assembling one of my wincon-combos.

I do also run Kor Haven and a Wasteland (yes, Strip Mine is better) but I do not currently run Ancient Tomb. I've cut all of the others although I do have a good number of lands capable of producing colorless, such as pain-lands and color-washers. These are partly for Eldrazi Displacer.

@ZenN
Those 4 cards are absolutely awesome with Derevi's ability and still really good by themselves, so I don't think that the decklist has lost any power by including those cards exclusively based on Derevi's triggered ability.

Huh, I forgot about Archon of Valor's Reach. Pretty awesome card.

@RivenEsq
My playgroup learned, quite some time ago, to play around the Refuge. So my experiences were that the Refuge was more of a meh, do-nothing card than actually useful. I don't think anyone disputes your points for the Refuge when it works, though, and I suppose that having that option is better than NOT having it. As econommics states, more is always better than less.

On the topic of non-basic lands discussion, I was kind of narrow in my approach, looking only at lands that generated colorless mana WITH a utility ability. Academy Ruins and Kor Haven are the best ones for Bant, and the brokenness of Gaea's Cradle is historical at this point. For my own Tasigur list, I find that running anywhere between 2-4 non-basics that generate colorless mana hasn't been too detrimental to the deck's performance. Granted, I heavily subscribe to the philosophy of mana dorks and mana rocks, so that certainly influences my opinion.

The more I think about Shalai, the more I like what she does for the deck. I'll be trying to squeeze space into my Arcades list for her because the Hexproof is so valuable.

Does anyone have experience running Willbreaker? I remember using it very briefly when I initially made a Derevi wizard-focused list and it seemed to be quite useful, but I'm not sure how its power level stacks up objectively. I was very impressed with Cataclysmic Gearhulk when I first started running it, but more recently I've noticed I never tutor for it and almost always wish it was something else when I have it in hand, so I'm thinking of potential replacements for it.

I think I might try out Shalai, Voice of Plenty as well. I have a few flex slots that I play around with so it shouldn't be too difficult to find room. However, I'm a bit more hesitant to try Archon of Valor's Reach just yet. I'm currently testing out Regal Behemoth in place of Consecrated Sphinx, but I've yet to play it. If the Behemoth doesn't work out, maybe I could try the Archon in it's place.

@DeadPresident
Willbreaker is very powerful with Derevi's ability since you can attack an open opponent and gain control of someone else's creatures. It then becomes a matter of how well you can protect the 'Breaker in order to keep control of the creatures that you stole. While I haven't personally played with the 'Breaker, I think it's a fine choice for the deck since it synergizes so well with Derevi's ability. It's also easily recurred with the primary recursion cards in the deck. It's CMC is a little unattractive but the effect is quite powerful. the 'Breaker also depends on how many times you can consistently trigger Derevi, which leads me to want to evaluate how many creatures I'm running that have some sort of evasion. Derevi herself is worth it, but having at least 2 evasive creatures on the board at any given time will make the 'Breaker shine.

Thanks for the feedback. Yeah it seems quite powerful, and if the deck has other potential targeting effects (I just checked and I have Kiora's Follower and Saffi Eriksdotter that I think would also trigger Willbreaker) but I'm not sure if that's sufficient for something cute like Willbreaker. Perhaps another higher CMC threat would be a better choice, or even a high utility creature like Shalai. I really like the flexibility and range of options for this deck.

Resolute Archangel is, and has been, one of my favorites for this list. It can have issues with aggro sometimes, and a reliably tutorable, and not that unattainable at 7 mana reset button is a pretty nice thing to have, especially once you start blinking or reanimating it. It allows you to play around with your life total a lot more for things like Sylvan Library and a tuned mana base (fetches/shocks).

Quote from RivenEsq »

Resolute Archangel is, and has been, one of my favorites for this list. It can have issues with aggro sometimes, and a reliably tutorable, and not that unattainable at 7 mana reset button is a pretty nice thing to have, especially once you start blinking or reanimating it. It allows you to play around with your life total a lot more for things like Sylvan Library and a tuned mana base (fetches/shocks).

Absolutely. I had cut it from the list for a while, and I missed it dearly. I win so many more games with it.

I HAVE been a little sad to not have the other two 7 drops I was playing before (Angel of Serenity and Sphinx of Uthuun), but I'm pretty solidly happy with Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite and Resolute Archangel as my two 7s.

Those are the only two 7 drops I run. I ran Uthuun in a past life, but Consecrated can just be so good. They just bring so much to the table that I can't really see myself running anything else, even though I've had other curve toppers I've wanted to use.

You might have finally convinced me to try out Resolute Archangel. Currently I run Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite and Angel of Serenity as my two 7 drops and, like both of you, have run Sphinx of Uthuun in the past. Lately I've been lazily trying to find a replacement for Angel of Serenity as I've been a little unimpressed by it. In my opinion Resolute Archangel isn't super exciting on paper either, but if you've both had such good results with it, it must be better than it seems.

About Consecrated Sphinx: How has that card been for you? I've just recently taken it out of my list because it has been so hit or miss for me (mostly miss). In my playgroup it is either dealt with very quickly or sticks around only to be copied by one or more of my opponents. I understand that when it's good it's GREAT, just was curious on how everyone here assesses the card. Regal Behemoth is the card I'm trying in its place at the moment.

Believe it or not, my curve tops-out at six. No seven-drops at all. And I'm still not sure the curve isn't too fat for my liking.

Perhaps I've become too reliant on my combos but mostly I just what to stay alive long enough to do something. Too many fatties can slow the play.

Consecrated Sphinx is the sort of card that should get one hated out of a game.

Just out of curiosity, how does everyone mostly end up winning their games? Almost always combo - or sometimes just managing to grind out the table because of the impressive recursion and resilience these lists tend to have?

From my own experience when I originally began running Jenara without an infinite combo I almost always survived until I only had one opponent but struggled to close out games, and then I added a Palinchron combo and now more recently I've added Craterhoof as an additional win-con.

I'd say it's about a 3:2 ratio for how I typically win - for every 3 games I win by combo, I win 2 by grinding incremental advantage/recursion. However I don't run any cards that are solely for combo i.e. Palinchron, Mirror Entity, Craterhoof Behemoth, etc.. When I do combo, it's almost always extra turns (not always infinite, as often 2-3 extra turns is enough) with some combination of Eternal Witness/Snapcaster Mage, Venser, the Sojourner/Eldrazi Displacer, or a bounce/clone/reanimate effect and Temporal Manipulation/Time Warp.

If I win, it's almost always combo. Either I bounce everyone else's permanents back to hand or just go infinite on turns. I have in the past won with an overloaded Cyclonic Rift - sometimes by recurring it every turn.

With Survival of the Fittest, it's almost too easy to set up the Mirror Entity/Body Double/Venser, Shaper Savant/Reveilark combo.

I agree that it's very easy to set up the Mirror Entity, Reveillark and friends combo. I've run it in the past and it can be very hard to stop. In fact I took the combo out of my list because it was so easy to find. I wouldn't say having the combo in my deck warped the list exactly (other than Mirror Entity the only other card I cut was Enlightened Tutor), but it definitely felt different playing the deck knowing it was there.

When I combo for the win it usually happens late in the game and I typically don't go looking for the combo pieces. When I ran Mirror Entity it wasn't uncommon to set up the combo within the first 5 or 6 turns and win before the game even got going. Needless to say, that wasn't exactly enjoyable for my playgroup. After winning that way a few times, I found I enjoyed longer/grindier games and winning out of nowhere on turn 5 wasn't really my thing.

As my playgroup got more competitive, I've considered putting Mirror Entity back in, but I've yet to pull the trigger.

I've never run the Mirror entity combo but I kind of reached a similar spot as you did @Kitsune when I run DEN, Image and Palinchron that it ended up happening quite frequently. I think it was as a result of the playgroup getting more optimized as well as me gaining a reputation of winning frequently and people needing to keep resources around to keep me in check.

I think that's the primary reason I looked into diversifying into multiple reliable win-cons because my first or second attempts to end the game are often scuppered because my playgroup knows to prevent it.

If I played more, I'd experiment with the WINCONs more. I used to use Biovisionary and Infinite Reflection and I actually won with it a few times. Needless to say, it's a more difficult thing to do. I have a Wizard sub-theme but the Wizards have tended to get replaced by better cards over time. I still have several.

Someday, I want to try Mind Over Matter and Laboratory Maniac with Azami, Lady of Scrolls as the card draw. That seems like a fun way to win but it's probably going to be tough without some other changes due to MOM's mana requirement.

I win more often than not with my current list (the Derevi version), and it's very rarely via combo. I never go looking for the combos unless it seems to be my only out, though I occasionally happen upon them organically.

I've seen a few of you refer to Mirror Entity as just being a combo card, but I think those among you are severely underestimating that card.
I've won a number of games purely by turning my team of little value creatures into 5/5s and alpha striking.
Not only that, but now that I'm playing Azami, Lady of Scrolls, there have been a few times I've activated for 1 so I could turn my entire team into wizards and draw a bunch of cards.

I rarely have much of a team to make use of. I should see about shoehorning a Mirror Entity into my Sigarda, Host of Herons deck; it has token-makers.

The synergy with Azami, Lady of Scrolls is interesting.

I'll definitely echo the sentiment for Mirror Entity. My brother has killed me often enough by suddenly turning his army of value creatures into 6/6's or 7/7's and killing me when I thought I had drained him of all card advantage. I view the Entity as a variable Anthem effect, honestly. The fact that it's instant speed and has such good synergy with Azami just makes it that much better.