I've primarily played mono colored decks since I started playing commander. This is my first real attempt at getting into a multicolored list so I started with OP's build.
I really really like bant because every single card creates so much value. I played last Tuesday against Brago and Selvala. Brago got off to a slow start fortunately, but Selvala exploded on to the board. I Enlightened Tutored for a Cataclysmic Gearhulk to contain their board, but ended up not needing to cast it. I had a Duplicant on board that I was able to Birthing Pod away for a Sphinx of Uthuun which netted me a Time Warp and a Sword of Feast and Famine. A Lightning Greaves on the board let me get in with the Sphinx right away letting me untap from the Sword and cast Time Warp. Next turn I drew Reveillark and was able to blink it with Venser, the Soujerner which brought back an Eternal Witness from the yard to grab Time Warp again. The following turn I blinked Eternal Witness with Venser to grab Time Warp at the end of the turn when she came back in to play. I was able to flash it with Alchemist's Refuge and no opponent took another turn that game.
One card I've been super impressed with is Tragic Arrogance. The fact that you get to pick what everyone keeps is insanely powerful, especially when people start to play cards with multiple types.
After getting a few games under my belt, I feel like I want to tune the list a bit. I've come up with a list of cards I'm interested in fitting in to the deck, but I'd like some feedback from someone who may have more experience with the deck and the cards.
Angel of Finality - I'm not sure if more grave hate is necessary, but if the deck has a way to abuse etb triggers then Angel seems like a good fit. I like that it wipes an entire graveyard and not just single card. It would probably replace Stone Cloaker if I were to slot it in, though I'm not sure hitting an entire yard outweighs the flash of Stone Cloaker, plus the ability to protect a creature or reuse an etb effect including its own.
Scavenging Ooze - Another great piece of grave hate. Recurred by Sun Titan, able to grab it with Green Sun's Zenith, better at eating threats than Stone Cloaker. It doesn't fit in with abusing etb effects, but its utility is so good. I would probably only run one out of the three between Angel, Ooze, and Cloaker. One of these plus a Tormod's Crypt is probably good enough for grave hate.
Austere Command - I like the versatility of this board wipe. I've found that really aggressive decks like Selvala can be quite threatening and this list doesn't have a lot toward board wipes. This one may be on the more expensive side, but its flexibility is what is appealing. It may be a replacement for Cataclysmic Gearhulk. Not entirely sold on this one, but it is attractive.
Supreme Verdict - Another card geared toward slowing down the early game. This one is a little more appealing because of its lower cmc. There has been a time or two where I've wanted to contain the field, but not necessarily lose any of my equipment on the board.
Consecrated Sphinx - Potential replacement for Sphinx of Uthuun. The cards are probably starting to get away from an etb theme, but Consecrated Sphinx's value is insane. It does have to survive your turn, but if it makes it around even one turn cycle it nets up to 6 cards.
Cyclonic Rift - Not too sure what I'd take out for this one, but Cyclonic Rift doesn't need much of an explanation as to why it'd be in the list.
Gilded Drake - A great card to flicker with Eldrazi Displacer or Venser. I really would want him as a generic value card so I'm having a difficult time deciding where he'd fit in.
Heroic Intervention - Just a good utility card to protect your permanents. This one is lower on the priority list of fitting it in, but when this card is good, it's very good.
Mana Drain - This card is definitely going in as soon as I get a hold of a reprint. I've been running both Disallow and Voidslime so it may replace one of those, although it could replace straight up Counterspell.
Mirror Entity - I usually don't go for infinite combos in our playgroup, but sometimes you just need a way to end the game. Mirror Entity would only be in here for the Reveillark combo.
Mystic Confluence - Another good utility card in the same category as Heroic Intervention. Not a card I'm dying to fit in, but it's versatility is hard to overlook.
Oracle of Mul Daya - More value. This deck has several ways to manipulate the top of the library so Oracle seems like a good fit.
Restoration Angel - If I end up maintaining a high enough creature count with etb effects then Restoration Angel seems pretty synergistic. She also carries a sword pretty well.
Rhystic Study - Nothing fancy here, just pure card draw.
Seedborn Muse - After connecting with Sword of Feast and Famine a few times I've decided I prefer my lands untapped. The more of my opponent's turns my lands are untapped, the better. The fact that it untaps your creatures too lets me be a little more aggressive during my turn knowing I'll have blockers back on my next opponent's turn.
Stoneforge Mystic - I'm running 4 pieces of sweet equipment and ways to abuse etb effects. Stoneforge probably deserves a slot.
For some of the cards I'm looking to add I tried to give a reasonable cut from the deck, but as usual cutting cards is the toughest part. Hopefully my reasoning for the cards I've listed without a cut will inspire some conversation. Thank you OP for putting up this primer and inspiring me to keep a multicolored commander deck around.
Also, to Diemer84, if you take a look at the card options list in the main post you'll see that many of the cards you're considering are listed there as things I've either played in the deck in the past or have considered playing. I'd say go ahead and take a look at my reasoning there for a more experienced take on it.
Also also, Mana Drain is definitely already in the list. Been there since pretty much when I first built the deck.
Also also also, just to note, I currently have the deck converted into an Atraxa, Praetor's Voice deck, but have chosen to leave the primer as Jenara, partly because I just don't have a lot of time these days to keep on it. I also haven't really played Commander in about two months, though I'm hoping to change that in the near future.
So I posted awhile back inquiring about a whole list of cards. After reading a little bit of interesting feedback from people posting here, going back and rereading the OP, and most importantly getting some reps in with the deck, I was able to make some changes to tune the deck to my preference.
I'm currently narrowed down to 6 cards I'm considering slotting in to the deck and was looking for a bit more feedback.
Arcane Denial - Should this just replace Counterspell? It's easier to cast and replaces itself, but it does give the opponent two cards. Or should it replace something like Voidslime since I already have Disallow in the deck.
Mana Drain - This is a strict upgrade from Counterspell. One is definitely going in to the deck when I pick it up, the question is do I switch out existing counter magic, or take out something else and add more counter magic. I'm leaning toward replacing existing.
Austere Command - I'm looking at this card as a possible replacement for Cataclysmic Gearhulk. Gearhulk has been good at catching me back up, and I like that it can clear Planeswalkers, but I don't like that the opponents get to choose what they keep. There are times when it can help contain a board, but doesn't actually get rid of the most problematic cards. Austere Command seems like a good replacement since I get to pick what will damage opponent the most and it will clear all of the permanents of my choice.
Teferi's Protection - This card just seems like good value and will add some more resilience to the deck. Not entirely sure where it'd slot in though. Has anyone had some experience with this card?
Buried Ruin - I cut Academy Ruins from the deck, partly because I had another deck that relies a bit more heavily on artifacts to win and I didn't want to pick another one up, but also because I don't think I've ever activated it. Between Sun Titan, Eternal Witness, and Karmic Guide/blink effects I feel like I've been able to get most of the permanents I want out of the graveyard directly in to play. The artifacts in this deck are really powerful tools, but not anything the deck has to rely on to win the game. I also wasn't always excited to put the card back on top of my deck when I could potentially be drawing something like Sphinx's Rev or Primespeaker to overwhelm my opponents in card advantage. Academy Ruins current replacement is Miren, the Moaning Well to be able to leverage my life total a bit more. It's also just a nice way to get some value out of creatures that may be targeted by my opponents. So... why would I run Buried Ruin after never using Academy Ruins? It's not that I never want to recur artifacts, but I'm not interested in the repeatable ability from Academy Ruins so a one time shot is fine with me, and I really like that it puts the artifact in to my hand and not on top of my library. I'm thinking Miren is the utility land I'll be sticking with between the three, but always looking for outside feedback.
@ZenZ have you considered switching Jenara for Ishai and Thrasios as partners? Ishai does what Jenara does without the mana investment, and if beating down with your general doesn't work out then Thrasios is a great value mana sink. I don't run any infinite mana combos in my deck to abuse Thrasios, but if there is nothing else to do, getting a land in to play or drawing a card is always good. It's especially good with a Seedborn Muse in play.
tl;dr: I'm back and a big update is coming soon(ish). Also, Knight of Autumn is awesome.
I've been gone for ages. I know. I've not updated the primer or posted here in a long time.
I was bored of my decks a bit so I tinkered with a lot of other building. Then I swapped Jenara out for Atraxa, Praetors' Voice and turned the deck into 4 colours. That was pretty powerful, but I got over it pretty quickly. There were too many things I wanted to try to put in the deck so I was never completely happy with the list. The deck got to a point where every deck felt the same, so I just sort of stopped playing it. My play sessions got much, much more infrequent, and whenever I did play I used other decks. Then I stopped playing almost entirely.
But now I've gotten back into it again. The drive to tinker and play is back. When it returned, one of the first things I did was strip down this deck and take a fresh look at it. I thought long and hard about it, but I made the decision to make Derevi, Empyrial Tactician the new commander. That's right. As much as I love Jenara, I made the decision, I've been playing it, and I've been loving it.
Don't fret. It's not some mean, anti-fun stax deck now. The concept and plan haven't changed. It's still very nearly the same deck. There have been a few card changes made to take advantage of Derevi's untap ability (like Bloom Tender), but otherwise it's the same idea. Other changes made to the list (which you'll see reflected in the primer in the near future) were things I would've done even with Jenara still at the helm. The list has been slimmed down and tightened up. Much of that was adapting to my playgroup becoming more powerful in general, but also largely just keeping up with the ever changing landscape of commander. In general, decks have gotten better, faster, leaner, etc.
Realistically speaking, Derevi was always very close to taking over. She doesn't have the raw beat stick ability that Jenara has, but the other benefits she offers have proven to be very effective. So much value, and so reliable to have her on the table all the time. These things make it easier to just kill with the rest of the deck, rather than ever needing to rely on the commander as a finisher. That said, stick your Sword of choice on her and she'll still do some heavy work.
So that's pretty much it. It's not ready yet, but an update is coming. A big one.
Welcome back, comrade. Yup, the Commander landscape has definitely adapted and become leaner and meaner. As an example of that, look at the current price of Gilded Drake. I'm pretty sure that card is played only in Commander (maybe as anti-Show & Tell tech in Legacy) and it's above $50 for a played copy. Crazy.
I took some cues from your list as I adjusted my Arcades Wall Ball list. I was trying to make it do something it's not really optimized for (I was trying for a cEDH build, if you can believe it) and have since retooled it and re-adjusted it to come back to earth. It's turned more into a Bant good-stuff/Defender Aggro deck now, and I'm hoping that the changes will be for the better.
Amusingly enough, I played around with Arcades, the Strategist too. Threw a deck together just for laughs, played like 5 games with it then moved on. It was basically this list with most of the creatures swapped out for Walls, with a few other minor changes.
As an aside, the primer committee has stated that the preference is for me to leave this thread here as a retired primer and make an entirely new thread for the new version of the deck, despite it being nearly identical (most of the same cards, same play style, etc) with just a different commander.
So, rather than the large update I was planning to do here, I suppose I'll be making a new thread, and I'm just going to make a couple of minor edits in this thread.
Good luck! I'm sure you'll be able to borrow most of the Primer material here as you create a new thread for your Derevi list.
I really like Arcades. He doesn't really draw a ton of attention (or at least, he shouldn't) because people know I'm playing with Defenders. And being able to have a source of Card Advantage in the Command zone, alongside the high number of blink effects I'm playing in my newly iterated list, has been pretty awesome. There are a surprising number of Defender creatures that create mana, are actually relevant beaters (with Arcades in play), or have some good ETB effects, so it's not as durdly or weak as I thought it would be. Blinking a Wall of Blossoms is pretty fun after attacking with it during the combat step.
Anyways, I'll look forward to the new thread for Derevi.
I really like Arcades. He doesn't really draw a ton of attention (or at least, he shouldn't) because people know I'm playing with Defenders.
You and I had very different experiences playing Arcades, my friend. I could never keep him on the table. Playgroup came pretty stacked with removal and wraths.
As for the primer, while I could definitely borrow a lot of it, I might just start from scratch. Be a fun little project, and interesting to compare what I wrote then (over 3 years ago, wow) with what I might write now.
Add me to the list of those curious to see what you come up with I've been playing some split of Jenara/Derevi/Atraxa as my interactive deck of choice for the last two or so years and thoroughly enjoy them. Derevi felt a little stale and monotonous the way I built her, so it eventually reverted back to Jenara and afterwards Atraxa which has been mostly enjoyable, but I'm curious about your plans for Derevi which seems like she has a higher ceiling than Jenara potentially.
You and I had very different experiences playing Arcades, my friend. I could never keep him on the table. Playgroup came pretty stacked with removal and wraths.
I experienced that lately, but I attribute that mostly to the fact that I was playing against other more causal decks (i.e. mono-Black Toshiro, Brion Stoutarm, andRadha, Heir to Keld) and Arcades' threat profile is a little more substantial in that particular playgroup. But if I was to play against the normal group of people I play with, where Kaalia, Brago, and Sliver Queen are more prominent, I don't think that Arcades will draw as much attention as those other generals. I've decided to tweak the deck to try and shore up this Commander-centric dependency by adding in the typical Bant ETB stuff. We'll see how it goes, but I do remain hopeful.
Since you're moving to Derevi, who has some pretty obvious combo potential a la Deadeye Navigator, will you be incorporating formal infinite combos to your Bant deck? My Arcades has a ton of fun with Intruder Alarm combos (I felt it appropriate to include since Walls and Alarms usually go together) since I focus more on an ETB approach to the deck and get more use out of my mana dorks with the Alarm that way.
Add me to the list of those curious to see what you come up with I've been playing some split of Jenara/Derevi/Atraxa as my interactive deck of choice for the last two or so years and thoroughly enjoy them. Derevi felt a little stale and monotonous the way I built her, so it eventually reverted back to Jenara and afterwards Atraxa which has been mostly enjoyable, but I'm curious about your plans for Derevi which seems like she has a higher ceiling than Jenara potentially.
Well, as I've mentioned it's been built as mostly the same deck. The big difference is that Derevi helps to amplify what I already want to be doing in the deck (great value and mana advantage, and can combo off with just a Derevi and a Birthing Pod on the table if I really want to), whereas Jenara was all about being the backup muscle. So there are a few cards added in specifically because they work great with Derevi's ability (like Bloom Tender and Gaea's Cradle, for example).
I've been pretty happy with it so far, but I'm still tweaking it.
I experienced that lately, but I attribute that mostly to the fact that I was playing against other more causal decks (i.e. mono-Black Toshiro, Brion Stoutarm, andRadha, Heir to Keld) and Arcades' threat profile is a little more substantial in that particular playgroup. But if I was to play against the normal group of people I play with, where Kaalia, Brago, and Sliver Queen are more prominent, I don't think that Arcades will draw as much attention as those other generals.
I think you may just be experiencing people underestimating the beats and draw power you get from having him on the table. My play group tends to assume that whatever I'm trying to do is bad for them and I shouldn't be allowed to do it.
Since you're moving to Derevi, who has some pretty obvious combo potential a la Deadeye Navigator, will you be incorporating formal infinite combos to your Bant deck?
Well, every version of this deck has had at least some way to go infinite. At the very least there's always been a few ways to go infinite turns. At various times I've included the Reveillark + Body Double + Mirror Entity loop in my deck, which works super well. I've also had Deadeye Navigator and Palinchron or Perigrine Drake in the deck at times, which opens a lot of combo options. Which ones I happen to be using at a given time are general dependent on my mood and whatever else is going on in my mini-meta.
With Derevi, you get the neat line of: Birthing Pod Derevi into Felidar Guardian, flicker Pod
Pod Felidar into Karmic Guide, return Felidar, flicker Pod
Pod Karmic Guide into Deadeye Navigator paired with Felidar, flicker Felidar, flicker Pod
Pod Felidar into Peregrine Drake, pair with Deadeye, go nuts
This can be done super easily with like "flashing" Derevi in on opponent's EOT, then untapping and casting Pod.
I'm not playing all the cards for that currently, but I very well might end up doing so.
I think the Birthing Pod lines are too good not to include. It makes the Pod a one card combo (kinda) with pieces that are all really good by themselves. The synergy between the pieces plus the potential for combo makes it super attractive to me. That and the fact that the Pod lines you've described costs less than $20 to build.
Sorry about your reputation and getting ganged up on. I used to have that reputation until I started building more "casual" decks to play with. So I rarely play my Teferi Chain Veil, Tasigur Flash Hulk, Edric Turns, or Dralnu Storm lists anymore, and instead play my Nicol Bolas ETB.dec, Zacama Super Ramp, Aminatou Planeswalkers, and Grimgrin Pseudo-Black deck. I don't win as much, but I have more fun with my playgroup. One of those players being my wife... Yeah, happy wife happy life, people. It's a real thing.
I think the Birthing Pod lines are too good not to include. It makes the Pod a one card combo (kinda) with pieces that are all really good by themselves. The synergy between the pieces plus the potential for combo makes it super attractive to me. That and the fact that the Pod lines you've described costs less than $20 to build.
Felidar Guardian is reasonably solid, but feels mostly worse than Restoration Angel for all purposes but comboing. Peregrine Drake is fine but not amazing. Wish it had a bit of a better body attached, but it's still decent for generating value when not using it to combo. As for Deadeye Navigator, it's an undeniably powerful card, but I ended up cutting it a while back for his heavy mana requirements and lightning rodness. That said, with Derevi as the general instead (even with a lower land count) the higher mana cost is a lot easier to swallow, and it's easier to keep mana up on opponents' turns.
Yeah, I'm lucky. My wife is super awesome. I married up in every way possible.
I like the Drake and the Guardian because they're both Larkable. In conjunction with the vast majority of the Defender creatures in my Arcades deck, and it only makes sense to run Lark since I'm ALWAYS going to get a 2-1 out of it dying/LTB. And with the heavier Blink theme I've decided to incorporate in the new iteration, I should get consistent value out of it. I think it's powerful enough to include Birthing Pod and Pod away Arcades to get either it or Karmic Guide every game.
I'm really hopeful that the second Ravnica set will have some awesome Simic and Azorius cards to play with. I'm all about my ETB creatures right now.
My Jenara deck is also slanted towards flickering; it's just so much darned fun. My current, favorite trick is to bounce every permanent every opponent has using Venser, Shaper Savant and the well-known combo with Mirror Entity, Body Double and Reveillark.
My Jenara deck is also slanted towards flickering; it's just so much darned fun. My current, favorite trick is to bounce every permanent every opponent has using Venser, Shaper Savant and the well-known combo with Mirror Entity, Body Double and Reveillark.
Don't forget that the same loop can be performed by replacing Body Double with Karmic Guide.
There are some other halfway decent combos available in these colours. Once upon a time I played Blasting Station combo with Sun Titan and Fiend Hunter. Most of us run the Titan, and if you're one of the runs running Fiend Hunter then it's not a huge deal to include one extra card for the combo. I prefer for all the pieces to be creatures, though, personally.
I probably still wouldn't play it, but if I was going to try to win with Biovisionary I feel like I'd rather play Rite of Replication than Infinite Reflection. It's more mana to win with, but the card would be much more useful on its own.
I see a lot of people playing that, but I dislike also making my own lands vulnerable, as well as never wanting to cast Living Plane unless Norn is already on the table. In another deck I previously played Norn + Kamahl, Fist of Krosa. It was more mana, but I liked it a little better.
I probably still wouldn't play it, but if I was going to try to win with Biovisionary I feel like I'd rather play Rite of Replication than Infinite Reflection. It's more mana to win with, but the card would be much more useful on its own.
I see a lot of people playing that, but I dislike also making my own lands vulnerable, as well as never wanting to cast Living Plane unless Norn is already on the table. In another deck I previously played Norn + Kamahl, Fist of Krosa. It was more mana, but I liked it a little better.
Infinite Reflection and Biovisionary have obvious difficulties: one almost has to play them both the same turn with at least three other creatures but I just didn't think Rite of Replication's cost was practical.
Infinite Reflection and Biovisionary have obvious difficulties: one almost has to play them both the same turn with at least three other creatures but I just didn't think Rite of Replication's cost was practical.
I agree that the cost is high, but it's also the difference between winning on the spot with just the two cards or needing five cards and being easier to deal with in general.
Either way, like I said, I still wouldn't play that as a win condition.
I really really like bant because every single card creates so much value. I played last Tuesday against Brago and Selvala. Brago got off to a slow start fortunately, but Selvala exploded on to the board. I Enlightened Tutored for a Cataclysmic Gearhulk to contain their board, but ended up not needing to cast it. I had a Duplicant on board that I was able to Birthing Pod away for a Sphinx of Uthuun which netted me a Time Warp and a Sword of Feast and Famine. A Lightning Greaves on the board let me get in with the Sphinx right away letting me untap from the Sword and cast Time Warp. Next turn I drew Reveillark and was able to blink it with Venser, the Soujerner which brought back an Eternal Witness from the yard to grab Time Warp again. The following turn I blinked Eternal Witness with Venser to grab Time Warp at the end of the turn when she came back in to play. I was able to flash it with Alchemist's Refuge and no opponent took another turn that game.
One card I've been super impressed with is Tragic Arrogance. The fact that you get to pick what everyone keeps is insanely powerful, especially when people start to play cards with multiple types.
After getting a few games under my belt, I feel like I want to tune the list a bit. I've come up with a list of cards I'm interested in fitting in to the deck, but I'd like some feedback from someone who may have more experience with the deck and the cards.
Angel of Finality - I'm not sure if more grave hate is necessary, but if the deck has a way to abuse etb triggers then Angel seems like a good fit. I like that it wipes an entire graveyard and not just single card. It would probably replace Stone Cloaker if I were to slot it in, though I'm not sure hitting an entire yard outweighs the flash of Stone Cloaker, plus the ability to protect a creature or reuse an etb effect including its own.
Scavenging Ooze - Another great piece of grave hate. Recurred by Sun Titan, able to grab it with Green Sun's Zenith, better at eating threats than Stone Cloaker. It doesn't fit in with abusing etb effects, but its utility is so good. I would probably only run one out of the three between Angel, Ooze, and Cloaker. One of these plus a Tormod's Crypt is probably good enough for grave hate.
Austere Command - I like the versatility of this board wipe. I've found that really aggressive decks like Selvala can be quite threatening and this list doesn't have a lot toward board wipes. This one may be on the more expensive side, but its flexibility is what is appealing. It may be a replacement for Cataclysmic Gearhulk. Not entirely sold on this one, but it is attractive.
Supreme Verdict - Another card geared toward slowing down the early game. This one is a little more appealing because of its lower cmc. There has been a time or two where I've wanted to contain the field, but not necessarily lose any of my equipment on the board.
Consecrated Sphinx - Potential replacement for Sphinx of Uthuun. The cards are probably starting to get away from an etb theme, but Consecrated Sphinx's value is insane. It does have to survive your turn, but if it makes it around even one turn cycle it nets up to 6 cards.
Cyclonic Rift - Not too sure what I'd take out for this one, but Cyclonic Rift doesn't need much of an explanation as to why it'd be in the list.
Gilded Drake - A great card to flicker with Eldrazi Displacer or Venser. I really would want him as a generic value card so I'm having a difficult time deciding where he'd fit in.
Heroic Intervention - Just a good utility card to protect your permanents. This one is lower on the priority list of fitting it in, but when this card is good, it's very good.
Mana Drain - This card is definitely going in as soon as I get a hold of a reprint. I've been running both Disallow and Voidslime so it may replace one of those, although it could replace straight up Counterspell.
Mirror Entity - I usually don't go for infinite combos in our playgroup, but sometimes you just need a way to end the game. Mirror Entity would only be in here for the Reveillark combo.
Mystic Confluence - Another good utility card in the same category as Heroic Intervention. Not a card I'm dying to fit in, but it's versatility is hard to overlook.
Oracle of Mul Daya - More value. This deck has several ways to manipulate the top of the library so Oracle seems like a good fit.
Restoration Angel - If I end up maintaining a high enough creature count with etb effects then Restoration Angel seems pretty synergistic. She also carries a sword pretty well.
Rhystic Study - Nothing fancy here, just pure card draw.
Seedborn Muse - After connecting with Sword of Feast and Famine a few times I've decided I prefer my lands untapped. The more of my opponent's turns my lands are untapped, the better. The fact that it untaps your creatures too lets me be a little more aggressive during my turn knowing I'll have blockers back on my next opponent's turn.
Stoneforge Mystic - I'm running 4 pieces of sweet equipment and ways to abuse etb effects. Stoneforge probably deserves a slot.
For some of the cards I'm looking to add I tried to give a reasonable cut from the deck, but as usual cutting cards is the toughest part. Hopefully my reasoning for the cards I've listed without a cut will inspire some conversation. Thank you OP for putting up this primer and inspiring me to keep a multicolored commander deck around.
BLiliana, Heretical HealerB| |GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
GWBDoom Plane EnchantressBWG
Gilded Drake can be nuts with any sort of flicker ability. One can just steal so many creatures.
I'm not aware of any reprints of Mana Drain.
I play the Mirror Entity-Reveillark-Body Double-value card combo and I have won games with it. Survival of the Fittest is pretty much essential to get it to work. I like to do it with Venser, Shaper Savant and just bounce everything everyone else has.
Oracle of Mul Daya can do some work.
Rhystic Study usually just gets hated out quickly. I actually played it for a while then cut it.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
Also, to Diemer84, if you take a look at the card options list in the main post you'll see that many of the cards you're considering are listed there as things I've either played in the deck in the past or have considered playing. I'd say go ahead and take a look at my reasoning there for a more experienced take on it.
Also also, Mana Drain is definitely already in the list. Been there since pretty much when I first built the deck.
Also also also, just to note, I currently have the deck converted into an Atraxa, Praetor's Voice deck, but have chosen to leave the primer as Jenara, partly because I just don't have a lot of time these days to keep on it. I also haven't really played Commander in about two months, though I'm hoping to change that in the near future.
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Current Commanders: Derevi, Empyrial Tactician (coming soon) | [Primer] Sedris, the Traitor King | Maelstrom Wanderer | Najeela, the Blade Blossom | Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow
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Retired Commanders: [Primer] Jenara, Asura of War | [Primer] Ghave, Guru of Spores | Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury | Saskia the Unyielding | Sydri, Galvanic Genius
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
1x Jenara, Asura of War
Creature
1x Acidic Slime
1x Bane of Progress
1x Body Double
1x Cataclysmic Gearhulk
1x Clever Impersonator
1x Consecrated Sphinx
1x Eldrazi Displacer
1x Ephara, God of the Polis
1x Eternal Witness
1x Gilded Drake
1x Glen Elendra Archmage
1x Harmonic Sliver
1x Karmic Guide
1x Mirror Entity
1x Mulldrifter
1x Mystic Snake
1x Nissa, Vastwood Seer Flip
1x Noble Hierarch
1x Phantasmal Image
1x Phyrexian Metamorph
1x Prime Speaker Zegana
1x Recruiter of the Guard
1x Resolute Archangel
1x Restoration Angel
1x Reveillark
1x Sakura-Tribe Elder
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Seedborn Muse
1x Snapcaster Mage
1x Solemn Simulacrum
1x Stonecloaker
1x Sun Titan
1x Venser, Shaper Savant
1x Wood Elves
1x Adarkar Wastes
1x Alchemist's Refuge
1x Ancient Tomb
1x Breeding Pool
1x Brushland
1x Canopy Vista
1x Celestial Colonnade
1x Command Tower
1x Flooded Strand
4x Forest
1x Glacial Fortress
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Hinterland Harbor
3x Island
1x Miren, the Moaning Well
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Mystic Gate
3x Plains
1x Prairie Stream
1x Reflecting Pool
1x Reliquary Tower
1x Seaside Citadel
1x Strip Mine
1x Sunpetal Grove
1x Temple Garden
1x Wasteland
1x Windswept Heath
1x Yavimaya Coast
Sorcery
1x Eldritch Evolution
1x Supreme Verdict
1x Temporal Manipulation
1x Time Warp
1x Tragic Arrogance
1x Wargate
1x Beast Within
1x Chord of Calling
1x Counterspell
1x Cryptic Command
1x Cyclonic Rift
1x Disallow
1x Eladamri's Call
1x Enlightened Tutor
1x Fact or Fiction
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Path to Exile
1x Sphinx's Revelation
1x Swords to Plowshares
1x Voidslime
Artifact
1x Chromatic Lantern
1x Coalition Relic
1x Lightning Greaves
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Sol Ring
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
Enchantment
1x Survival of the Fittest
1x Sylvan Library
Planeswalker
1x Venser, the Sojourner
Maybeboard
1x Arcane Denial
1x Mana Drain
1x Teferi's Protection
1x Austere Command
1x Buried Ruin
1x Oracle of Mul Daya
I'm currently narrowed down to 6 cards I'm considering slotting in to the deck and was looking for a bit more feedback.
Arcane Denial - Should this just replace Counterspell? It's easier to cast and replaces itself, but it does give the opponent two cards. Or should it replace something like Voidslime since I already have Disallow in the deck.
Mana Drain - This is a strict upgrade from Counterspell. One is definitely going in to the deck when I pick it up, the question is do I switch out existing counter magic, or take out something else and add more counter magic. I'm leaning toward replacing existing.
Austere Command - I'm looking at this card as a possible replacement for Cataclysmic Gearhulk. Gearhulk has been good at catching me back up, and I like that it can clear Planeswalkers, but I don't like that the opponents get to choose what they keep. There are times when it can help contain a board, but doesn't actually get rid of the most problematic cards. Austere Command seems like a good replacement since I get to pick what will damage opponent the most and it will clear all of the permanents of my choice.
Teferi's Protection - This card just seems like good value and will add some more resilience to the deck. Not entirely sure where it'd slot in though. Has anyone had some experience with this card?
Buried Ruin - I cut Academy Ruins from the deck, partly because I had another deck that relies a bit more heavily on artifacts to win and I didn't want to pick another one up, but also because I don't think I've ever activated it. Between Sun Titan, Eternal Witness, and Karmic Guide/blink effects I feel like I've been able to get most of the permanents I want out of the graveyard directly in to play. The artifacts in this deck are really powerful tools, but not anything the deck has to rely on to win the game. I also wasn't always excited to put the card back on top of my deck when I could potentially be drawing something like Sphinx's Rev or Primespeaker to overwhelm my opponents in card advantage. Academy Ruins current replacement is Miren, the Moaning Well to be able to leverage my life total a bit more. It's also just a nice way to get some value out of creatures that may be targeted by my opponents. So... why would I run Buried Ruin after never using Academy Ruins? It's not that I never want to recur artifacts, but I'm not interested in the repeatable ability from Academy Ruins so a one time shot is fine with me, and I really like that it puts the artifact in to my hand and not on top of my library. I'm thinking Miren is the utility land I'll be sticking with between the three, but always looking for outside feedback.
BLiliana, Heretical HealerB| |GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
GWBDoom Plane EnchantressBWG
BLiliana, Heretical HealerB| |GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
GWBDoom Plane EnchantressBWG
tl;dr: I'm back and a big update is coming soon(ish). Also, Knight of Autumn is awesome.
I've been gone for ages. I know. I've not updated the primer or posted here in a long time.
I was bored of my decks a bit so I tinkered with a lot of other building. Then I swapped Jenara out for Atraxa, Praetors' Voice and turned the deck into 4 colours. That was pretty powerful, but I got over it pretty quickly. There were too many things I wanted to try to put in the deck so I was never completely happy with the list. The deck got to a point where every deck felt the same, so I just sort of stopped playing it. My play sessions got much, much more infrequent, and whenever I did play I used other decks. Then I stopped playing almost entirely.
But now I've gotten back into it again. The drive to tinker and play is back. When it returned, one of the first things I did was strip down this deck and take a fresh look at it. I thought long and hard about it, but I made the decision to make Derevi, Empyrial Tactician the new commander. That's right. As much as I love Jenara, I made the decision, I've been playing it, and I've been loving it.
Don't fret. It's not some mean, anti-fun stax deck now. The concept and plan haven't changed. It's still very nearly the same deck. There have been a few card changes made to take advantage of Derevi's untap ability (like Bloom Tender), but otherwise it's the same idea. Other changes made to the list (which you'll see reflected in the primer in the near future) were things I would've done even with Jenara still at the helm. The list has been slimmed down and tightened up. Much of that was adapting to my playgroup becoming more powerful in general, but also largely just keeping up with the ever changing landscape of commander. In general, decks have gotten better, faster, leaner, etc.
Realistically speaking, Derevi was always very close to taking over. She doesn't have the raw beat stick ability that Jenara has, but the other benefits she offers have proven to be very effective. So much value, and so reliable to have her on the table all the time. These things make it easier to just kill with the rest of the deck, rather than ever needing to rely on the commander as a finisher. That said, stick your Sword of choice on her and she'll still do some heavy work.
So that's pretty much it. It's not ready yet, but an update is coming. A big one.
---
Current Commanders: Derevi, Empyrial Tactician (coming soon) | [Primer] Sedris, the Traitor King | Maelstrom Wanderer | Najeela, the Blade Blossom | Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow
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Retired Commanders: [Primer] Jenara, Asura of War | [Primer] Ghave, Guru of Spores | Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury | Saskia the Unyielding | Sydri, Galvanic Genius
I took some cues from your list as I adjusted my Arcades Wall Ball list. I was trying to make it do something it's not really optimized for (I was trying for a cEDH build, if you can believe it) and have since retooled it and re-adjusted it to come back to earth. It's turned more into a Bant good-stuff/Defender Aggro deck now, and I'm hoping that the changes will be for the better.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
As an aside, the primer committee has stated that the preference is for me to leave this thread here as a retired primer and make an entirely new thread for the new version of the deck, despite it being nearly identical (most of the same cards, same play style, etc) with just a different commander.
So, rather than the large update I was planning to do here, I suppose I'll be making a new thread, and I'm just going to make a couple of minor edits in this thread.
---
Current Commanders: Derevi, Empyrial Tactician (coming soon) | [Primer] Sedris, the Traitor King | Maelstrom Wanderer | Najeela, the Blade Blossom | Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow
---
Retired Commanders: [Primer] Jenara, Asura of War | [Primer] Ghave, Guru of Spores | Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury | Saskia the Unyielding | Sydri, Galvanic Genius
I really like Arcades. He doesn't really draw a ton of attention (or at least, he shouldn't) because people know I'm playing with Defenders. And being able to have a source of Card Advantage in the Command zone, alongside the high number of blink effects I'm playing in my newly iterated list, has been pretty awesome. There are a surprising number of Defender creatures that create mana, are actually relevant beaters (with Arcades in play), or have some good ETB effects, so it's not as durdly or weak as I thought it would be. Blinking a Wall of Blossoms is pretty fun after attacking with it during the combat step.
Anyways, I'll look forward to the new thread for Derevi.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
As for the primer, while I could definitely borrow a lot of it, I might just start from scratch. Be a fun little project, and interesting to compare what I wrote then (over 3 years ago, wow) with what I might write now.
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Current Commanders: Derevi, Empyrial Tactician (coming soon) | [Primer] Sedris, the Traitor King | Maelstrom Wanderer | Najeela, the Blade Blossom | Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow
---
Retired Commanders: [Primer] Jenara, Asura of War | [Primer] Ghave, Guru of Spores | Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury | Saskia the Unyielding | Sydri, Galvanic Genius
I experienced that lately, but I attribute that mostly to the fact that I was playing against other more causal decks (i.e. mono-Black Toshiro, Brion Stoutarm, andRadha, Heir to Keld) and Arcades' threat profile is a little more substantial in that particular playgroup. But if I was to play against the normal group of people I play with, where Kaalia, Brago, and Sliver Queen are more prominent, I don't think that Arcades will draw as much attention as those other generals. I've decided to tweak the deck to try and shore up this Commander-centric dependency by adding in the typical Bant ETB stuff. We'll see how it goes, but I do remain hopeful.
Since you're moving to Derevi, who has some pretty obvious combo potential a la Deadeye Navigator, will you be incorporating formal infinite combos to your Bant deck? My Arcades has a ton of fun with Intruder Alarm combos (I felt it appropriate to include since Walls and Alarms usually go together) since I focus more on an ETB approach to the deck and get more use out of my mana dorks with the Alarm that way.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
I've been pretty happy with it so far, but I'm still tweaking it.
---
Current Commanders: Derevi, Empyrial Tactician (coming soon) | [Primer] Sedris, the Traitor King | Maelstrom Wanderer | Najeela, the Blade Blossom | Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow
---
Retired Commanders: [Primer] Jenara, Asura of War | [Primer] Ghave, Guru of Spores | Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury | Saskia the Unyielding | Sydri, Galvanic Genius
Well, every version of this deck has had at least some way to go infinite. At the very least there's always been a few ways to go infinite turns. At various times I've included the Reveillark + Body Double + Mirror Entity loop in my deck, which works super well. I've also had Deadeye Navigator and Palinchron or Perigrine Drake in the deck at times, which opens a lot of combo options. Which ones I happen to be using at a given time are general dependent on my mood and whatever else is going on in my mini-meta.
With Derevi, you get the neat line of:
Birthing Pod Derevi into Felidar Guardian, flicker Pod
Pod Felidar into Karmic Guide, return Felidar, flicker Pod
Pod Karmic Guide into Deadeye Navigator paired with Felidar, flicker Felidar, flicker Pod
Pod Felidar into Peregrine Drake, pair with Deadeye, go nuts
This can be done super easily with like "flashing" Derevi in on opponent's EOT, then untapping and casting Pod.
I'm not playing all the cards for that currently, but I very well might end up doing so.
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Current Commanders: Derevi, Empyrial Tactician (coming soon) | [Primer] Sedris, the Traitor King | Maelstrom Wanderer | Najeela, the Blade Blossom | Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow
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Retired Commanders: [Primer] Jenara, Asura of War | [Primer] Ghave, Guru of Spores | Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury | Saskia the Unyielding | Sydri, Galvanic Genius
Sorry about your reputation and getting ganged up on. I used to have that reputation until I started building more "casual" decks to play with. So I rarely play my Teferi Chain Veil, Tasigur Flash Hulk, Edric Turns, or Dralnu Storm lists anymore, and instead play my Nicol Bolas ETB.dec, Zacama Super Ramp, Aminatou Planeswalkers, and Grimgrin Pseudo-Black deck. I don't win as much, but I have more fun with my playgroup. One of those players being my wife... Yeah, happy wife happy life, people. It's a real thing.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
I was about to say I wish I could get mine to play, but... nope. Not really.
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Current Commanders: Derevi, Empyrial Tactician (coming soon) | [Primer] Sedris, the Traitor King | Maelstrom Wanderer | Najeela, the Blade Blossom | Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow
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Retired Commanders: [Primer] Jenara, Asura of War | [Primer] Ghave, Guru of Spores | Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury | Saskia the Unyielding | Sydri, Galvanic Genius
I like the Drake and the Guardian because they're both Larkable. In conjunction with the vast majority of the Defender creatures in my Arcades deck, and it only makes sense to run Lark since I'm ALWAYS going to get a 2-1 out of it dying/LTB. And with the heavier Blink theme I've decided to incorporate in the new iteration, I should get consistent value out of it. I think it's powerful enough to include Birthing Pod and Pod away Arcades to get either it or Karmic Guide every game.
I'm really hopeful that the second Ravnica set will have some awesome Simic and Azorius cards to play with. I'm all about my ETB creatures right now.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
There are some other halfway decent combos available in these colours. Once upon a time I played Blasting Station combo with Sun Titan and Fiend Hunter. Most of us run the Titan, and if you're one of the runs running Fiend Hunter then it's not a huge deal to include one extra card for the combo. I prefer for all the pieces to be creatures, though, personally.
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Current Commanders: Derevi, Empyrial Tactician (coming soon) | [Primer] Sedris, the Traitor King | Maelstrom Wanderer | Najeela, the Blade Blossom | Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow
---
Retired Commanders: [Primer] Jenara, Asura of War | [Primer] Ghave, Guru of Spores | Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury | Saskia the Unyielding | Sydri, Galvanic Genius
I have won a few games with Biovisionary and Infinite Reflection but I've since retired both cards.
I played Blasting Station with Kitchen Finks and Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit and Melira, Sylvok Outcast a few times in Modern. Silly fun. It's something I might try in a GW Commander deck I have.
Living Plane and Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite is something I've also considered.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
I see a lot of people playing that, but I dislike also making my own lands vulnerable, as well as never wanting to cast Living Plane unless Norn is already on the table. In another deck I previously played Norn + Kamahl, Fist of Krosa. It was more mana, but I liked it a little better.
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Current Commanders: Derevi, Empyrial Tactician (coming soon) | [Primer] Sedris, the Traitor King | Maelstrom Wanderer | Najeela, the Blade Blossom | Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow
---
Retired Commanders: [Primer] Jenara, Asura of War | [Primer] Ghave, Guru of Spores | Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury | Saskia the Unyielding | Sydri, Galvanic Genius
Infinite Reflection and Biovisionary have obvious difficulties: one almost has to play them both the same turn with at least three other creatures but I just didn't think Rite of Replication's cost was practical.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
Either way, like I said, I still wouldn't play that as a win condition.
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Current Commanders: Derevi, Empyrial Tactician (coming soon) | [Primer] Sedris, the Traitor King | Maelstrom Wanderer | Najeela, the Blade Blossom | Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow
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Retired Commanders: [Primer] Jenara, Asura of War | [Primer] Ghave, Guru of Spores | Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury | Saskia the Unyielding | Sydri, Galvanic Genius