After making a couple of decklists based on other mono-green general, I found out that Hua Tuo, Honored Physician is what I'd really like to play because it's really different from what I currently play (see my sig), it looks non-threatening for my opponents, it can be built around pretty well while not having to only rely on him to win (he doesn't really win by himself, actually).
Also, since I use both the 1v1 and the multiplayer banlists for all my decks, the announcement of Sensei's Divining Top being now unbanned in 1v1 really encouraged me building this deck, because it's one of the best card to go with Hua Tuo. I was looking for a deck to put a Top in, and my 3 other mono-colored decks didn't have any specific synergy to make Sensei's Divining Top really shine. This deck does.
With that said, here's my current work (still in progress, a lot of work still to do), by card category for now (because it's more important than card types for now):
I think you pretty much get an idea of what I'm trying to do here. Now, I don't know if I'm doing it right, if playing all the sorcery ramps is worth it, it's mostly how I shuffle my deck if my top X cards aren't what I want (after Scroll Rack, S.D.Top, Mirri's Guile, Sylvan Library).
Also, I'm trying to find more consistent ways to win the game. Tooth and Nail and G-Wave will eventually get me to Behemoth+Avenger and I have a couple of other ways to tutor these creatures, but I'd like to be able to win without these 2 (if it gets exiled for example). Timesifter is also a really weird card on its own, not sure it will stick in my list but it's pretty crazy if I can find enough win conditions (since it may exile win conditions, and that's why I need more).
I wouldn't mind Helix Pinnacle if I could get to 100 mana without infinite combos (I don't play any infinite combo, sorry, personal preferences here). Mana doublers can definitely help, I only have one on my list and even though I'm playing snow lands, I'd prefer to pass on Extraplanar Lens because it's really vulnerable and I don't really have any artifact tutor in there anyway, so I prefer to play more consistent spells (Mana Reflection would already be a good start).
Not sure if I want Gaea's Cradle but I would really like to make a green deck that doesn't need/want it. I don't think this deck will be able to put a lot of creatures on the battlefield early game so that's probably a good reason enough to not play it. I also don't want to play all the 1-cmc mana dorks, because spells like Cultivate give me more value (2 for 1, shuffle my deck) and don't go after Toxic Deluge, which tends to happen a lot in multiplayer. Even though Hua Tuo likes having creatures, I feel like Sakura and Yavimaya can get the job done since I also get extra value of these, board wipes or not.
Any thoughts? Can this work? What about my maybeboard? The Verdant Succession + sac outlet + Hua Tuo is certainly interesting. But I need to keep in mind that Hua Tuo also has a timing restriction, although I can activate it during my upkeep or in response to something on the stack, it still has to be before my first declare attackers step (not that I plan to have multiple combat phases but anyway).
My own rules when building a deck: legal in the official US Commander banlist, legal in the French duel 1v1 Commander banlist, no infinite combo possible, no hard lock.
Also: fun to play with, fun to play against, original with cards people don't see too often, tier 2 or tier 3 underrated general, the deck must work without the general but the general also has to be a really good option/complement to the deck.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
could Courser of Kruphix make the cut?
would act as a second Oracle of Mul Daya and a little extra lifegain on a bigger body and a cheaper price
Good suggestion, since I will play with my top deck a lot, anything that can give me card advantage is good.
The only "problem" could be my curve, from 1-cmc to 8 right now, I have 4, 9, 16, 9, 7, 6, 4 and 2. It's a lot of 3-cmc spells and my general is also 3-cmc (but I definitely don't have to play it on turn 3).
Timesifter might not be as good as I would like it to be, even with top deck manipulation I'm not sure I'm playing a big enough density of high casting cost spell to justify the exile part. In 1v1 it's definitely really good but it will be more difficult to make it work against 3 opponents, they won't have lands everytime.
I think I should play the 4 fetch lands. I really don't like fetch lands because it's a waste of time for mono-colored decks but Dryad Arbor is a forest and the more shuffle effects I got, the better Scroll Rack, Top and Mirri's Guile get.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Looks like a nother fun deck from your hand. Been lurking your other ones aswell
Another sac-outlet could be Life's Legacy. Never had any experience with it myself, but it's cheap. A shame it isn't an instant.
Maybe Fecundity could work if you rely on getting your guys in and our of the yard. I like that card alot, but sure, you have to control who gets the most out of it!
I think I would tone down the number of shuffling effects, but Crop Rotation might be one I would add to grab a land I really want.
Looks like a nother fun deck from your hand. Been lurking your other ones aswell
Really nice to hear, thank you! If you have any suggestion for a mono-white general, feel free to PM me, I tried building around Atalya, Samite Master but she's not strong enough (and even with adequate support, she's still doesn't do anything). Yeah, I'm pretty happy with my Hua Tuo right now, I started trading for cards already, got about 30 cards right now so I might be playtesting really soon if I order every card < 5$ quickly. The thing I like about Hua Tuo (and that's what I try to do with every deck I build) is how non-threatening he looks, but how good he can be with adequate support (and I mean more than 2-3 cards like I had when looking for Atalya, there are at least 15-20 cards that are good specifically with Hua Tuo) and finally, the deck can work pretty fine without Hua Tuo: he's just a good option to manipulate my top deck.
Another sac-outlet could be Life's Legacy. Never had any experience with it myself, but it's cheap. A shame it isn't an instant.
I really don't like the sorcery speed and this is why I think Momentous Fall is better. It is however aggressively priced, but I don't think I need too many one-time sacrifice spells. Ashnod's Altar is definitely the best sac outlet I have right now.
Maybe Fecundity could work if you rely on getting your guys in and our of the yard. I like that card alot, but sure, you have to control who gets the most out of it!
Too dangerous without dedicated support, I'm playing mono-green and creatures die a lot in this format.
I tweaked the mana base a little bit. Cradle should be good, even without mana dorks (which are just bad in multiplayer I think, this is why Sakura is so much better).
A couple of interesting notes:
- Kamahl, Fist of Krosa is a good protection against wrath effects, especially if I can cheat him at instant speed with Call of the Wild; the other interesting part is with Ashnod's Altar, as it turns every Forest into 2 mana for a giant Genesis Wave (not that I particularly want to do that, but it can be a game winner.
- Panglacial Wurm is really just something I wanna try: I have a really high density of repeatable shuffle-effects and I can put it back in my library with my general. It works at instant speed, so it's pretty interesting, I can just Worldly Tutor in combat phase to cast it. Looks interesting enough to be worth a try IMO, also pretty good with Greater Good and Momentous Fall.
- Verdant Succession + Hua Tuo: what is more interesting than Craterhoof Behemoth? 2 Craterhoof Behemoths. The same could be said of a lot of creatures in this deck. Just sac it to any sac effect (Greater Good is pretty juicy), in response to Verdant's trigger, put it on top on of the library, then put it in play again, draw cards, attack and win. With Thousand-Year Elixir, if the sac effect is repeatable, we can do this a 3rd time (because 3 Craterhoof Behemoth etb triggers are even better, and I'm not even talking about the fact than you can stack it up with Woodfall Primus to destroy 6 permanents).
- Lost in the Woods: pretty defensive card, works with Dryad Arbor (which can be targetted with Hua Tuo or Worldly Tutor). It is not "you may" though, so if 20 tokens are attacking, we decide the order for the 20 triggers and will reveal 20 cards eventually. Should still be enough to remove a couple of attackers, especially if we have top deck manipulation available. And the good thing about it is that it doesn't target.
- Perilous Forays: another repeatable sac outlet, pretty good with Verdant Succession and Seedguide Ash if I never want to draw a Forest again.
- Fauna Shaman and Survival of the Fittest: as you might have notice, my general does put back creatures on the top of my deck from my graveyard. Repeatable shuffling effect, and did I mention Genesis?
- Birthing Pod: the 7-cmc crowd looks a little bit too big right now but I don't really count Krosan Tusker and Panglacial Wurm. That gives me a pretty nice creature curve, from 0-cmc to 8-cmc: 1, 4, 8, 2, 3, 2, 4, 2. I will need maybe one more 4-cmc creature to make this better.
- Lifeblood Hydra: really not sure on that one, doesn't work really great with Genesis Wave or Call in the Wild. It's a good card but it will probably get cut.
- Swiftfoot Boots: that could be Concordant Crossroads, but the former is safer.
I'm pretty satisfied right now but there is still a little bit of fine tuning to do before I buy everything and start really playtesting, but it looks like it could win some games. Not sure if I should play Regrowth. I probably should. Woodland Guidance might be better than Regrowth in this specific deck though. I could also just play both. Recross the Paths is the only other clash-mechanic card worth considering.
Also note that Krosan Grip is my only response to Torpor Orb (and the white flash flying creature doing the same effect) and Humility right now, which is a problem. I probably need a board wipe tbh, not creature based. Something like Oblivion Stone maybe, since All is Dust doesn't get rid of Torpor Orb and Perilous Vault exiles my creatures in play. Freyalise is another interesting option, altough only for enchantments and artifacts.
Skullclamp also considered, but I'm bored of playing it in every deck... they probably should ban it lol.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
No more sorcery-speed ramp (almost), I'm better with creatures for that, because my deck wants creatures to be on the battlefield and in my deck. Boundless Realms took the place of any mana doubler since it's just a far better card overall (almost unfair).
Both creatures return a forest to my hand, which can be Dryad Arbor. Also, weirdly, I got no 1-cmc creature, so I can't start to Pod by saccing Dryad Arbor. But this is EDH, so I can just sac Hua Tuo which is fine, I don't really feel the need to start the curve at 0 and I'm not sure how good it would be to have multiple activations of Hua Tuo in my turn. But being able to sac Dryad for Quirion to have 2 activations of Hua Tuo in the same turn... it can't be bad. I can also untap Dryad Arbor by returning another forest to my hand if I need one extra mana (at the cost of tempo).
Flying can be a problem too in my deck right now, which is an argument for Scryb Ranger. Maybe I should play both.
Any thoughts on this? Let's say I have 12 lands in play with Call of the Wild. Do I want to activate Hua Tuo 3 times? Probably. The only downside is the timing restriction, I need to do Hua Tuo's activations on my turn.
Edit: I think the deck screams for even more creatures, so I made a little list of cards I could remove if I want to add those 2 above or any other utility creature.
Harmonize: it's good, but repeatable effect like Greater Good are obviously better. Momentous Fall: as much as I like this card, Greater Good is probably better, and I'm not sure it's really needed. Tooth and Nail: this one honestly doesn't do much for the gameplan. Yes, it's a good card, it's in every goodstuff deck, but even if I get Primus and Slime, the value isn't that big, and Behemoth with Avenger only wins if I already have a couple of creatures that can attack. Maybe I should add Regal Force, since Avenger+Regal Force is really sweet. Summoning Trap and See the Unwritten: I like what these cards do, but it's 1 time only. Garruk, Primal Hunter: if I add Regal Force, this is pretty much was it should replace. Having 2 Garruks is kind of weird for Genesis Wave. I'm not sure if the tokens are that valuable, Garruk Wildspeaker also produces tokens at 4 mana and can overrun too. Tough choice. Krosan Tusker: I added Solemn Simulacrum in my last version of the deck. Do I still need Krosan Tusker? The only plus is with Fierce Empath or if I don't have a sac outlet. Phyrexian Revoker: really situational. I have tons of way to tutor it or cheat it. It shuts down planeswalkers and a couple of generals like Marath, and it works against Sol Ring too. I love it, but I also need to make some place for what might be better cards...
The more I add creatures, the more Earthcraft gets good too, altought I really don't want to go infinite with Squirrel Nest, it can be a good card by itself.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
I'm replacing Oblivion Stone by Silklash Spider. I want creatures, and this is one. I can deal with artifacts, enchantments and lands just fine with my creature package already. I think I can pretty much fight any creature in this format. I have Brutalizer Exarch for Gods (when they are non-creature, obviously, which is most of the time). Avacyn could be a problem, besides Lost in the Woods, I don't have much against her. I'm thinking of Helm of Possession maybe, it's a good sac outlet.
I also REALLY want to make place for Quirion Ranger right now, as it's something really cheap easily available for my general if I need to. Regal Force is the other creature I'm looking at right now. Not sure what to remove though, I don't know if the 2 Garruks are really good, I'm still a little bit undecided about See the Unwritten and Summoning Trap, I think instant speed is really superior but the sorcery speed one can get 2 creatures and also put cards in my graveyard instead of back into my library (not sure what's better, I still think Summoning Trap is but should I play both?).
Momentous Fall and Life's Legacy is another I'm scratching my head with right now. Harmonize is the other non-permanent draw spell I play actually. I'd definitely prefer to have Regal Force somewhere, just for the interaction with Avenger of Zendikar, having Tooth and Nail and a lot of tutors overall in my deck (and at least, Regal Force should draw me 2-3 cards with my general and Dryad Arbor anyway).
Panglacial Wurm, as much as I like the surprise effect and the 9 power, it's a 7-cmc card vanilla. Yes, if I top deck Greater Good and I have a fetch land in play, it's the nuts. Or with Momentous Fall and Life's Legacy. I still don't know if I want to play all these draw effects though.
Also, Krosan Tusker. The only reason it's there is Fierce Empath, just in case, but I really don't like it.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
I had to make a couple of other decisions to squeeze everything I wanted to try first.
- Phyrexian Revoker
Doesn't work with Green Sun's Zenith, also doesn't really work with Birthing Pod when you look at how many 1-CMC creatures I play (currently 0, but I'm adding one, see below). The fact that it is harder to cheat it into play is kind of a problem, so I will keep this for my future mono-white deck maybe (planning to make some kind of hatebear deck, I'll see)
- Garruk, Primal Hunter
This one doesn't fit the deck as good as Garruk, Caller of the Beasts. The -3 is basically Life's Legacy for 5 mana, without having to sac a creature, which is both a good and bad thing, since the creature could be destroyed in response and I could end up drawing 0 card for 5 mana, which is really bad. The +1 and the -6 aren't really what I'm trying to do either.
- Harmonize
It's sad to see this go, but I had to make a decision between Krosan Tusker and this. It looks weird since both cards are really different, but they accomplish something really similar: draw the card on top of my library. With Hua Tuo, it's something important. The difference is that Tusker is uncounterable, can be put back on top of my library at each upkeep to give me, for 3 mana, the card I would draw otherwise anyway and then a basic land. It can be really good in multiplayer in some more grindy matchup, also the fact that I'm discarding it as part of the activation of its ability means that I can put it back on top in response to the actual draw ability (after the triggered search ability resolved), if I want to thin my deck even more for some reasons.
+ Regal Force
I probably have too many 7-CMC creatures for my tastes, but as I said before, I don't refer to Krosan Tusker and Panglacial Wurm as 7-CMC creatures in my Pod curve. Regal Force is really good with Tooth and Nail and Avenger of Zendikar when I can't kill everybody with Craterhoof Behemoth, it's also, besides Solemn Simulacrum and Krosan Tusker, the only creature in this deck with "draw cards" written on it, which can be useful too. Worst case scenario I should be able to draw 2 cards out of this if I play it wisely. Also, having more high-costed creatures isn't that bad for a deck that plays Call of the Wild and Lurking Predators. Just need to be careful with that last one, since the "may" part only applies when it's not a creature.
+ Quirion Ranger
Already discussed why I want this so bad. So now this is.
+ Helm of Possession
Just a logic choice to be honest, I removed Oblivion Stone and can deal with non-creature permanents the way mono-green does; this is here for creatures, besides something like Uril, the Miststalker, I don't see many things I can't deal with right now (and Uril is just a 5/5 vanilla if I can kill auras, also if it has flying, Silklash Spider will prove itself useful).
+ Life's Legacy
I'm willing to try it instead of Harmonize. It really helps to justify Panglacial Wurm to be honest, since it will draw me 9 cards for 9 mana at worst, which is... good? For mono-green I mean. It's better than Blue Sun's Zenith, isn't it? Well, Momentous Fall has the instant speed obviously, but anyway, I don't think I'm doing anything bad by playing both.
---------------
By removing the 5-cmc Garruk, I don't have any token generation in this deck besides Avenger of Zendikar. I don't know if this is really a bad thing since I'm recurring creature cards easily and can win a lot of life if I manage to set up some kind of Eternal Witness loop with Life's Legacy for example. The little Garruk Wildspeaker could do it but I prefer Kamahl in my deck overall for the overrun effect, and even if it doesn't generate tokens, it's probably even better than that. Kamalh can just transform my lands into creatures in response to Behemoth's trigger for an alpha strike (who needs haste when you can animate lands?).
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Opinions on Lightning Greaves vs Swiftfoot Boots?
Can't really make up my mind. Moving the Greaves (and I obviously need 2 creatures) left what could be my best asset unprotected.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
I'm slowly realizing that I probably don't want Greaves/Boots at all. If I want protection, I have better options, but the deck is already pretty resilient to removal due to my general's own ability. I may just want to play more creatures at some point to justify enchantments like Call of the Wild and Lurking Predators, or even Summoning Trap and See the Unwritten. I probably need over 30 creatures. Big creatures. Worldspine Wurm is something but it can't go in my graveyard (it's a triggered ability though, not a replacement effect like Progenitus, so it can be responded to with Hua Tuo if I'm in my turn). But I need something with a really good ETB trigger, something that has a huge impact besides Avenger, Behemoth and Regal Force.
I also found Putrefax, definitely good with Horobi: play it, attack for 5, sac it, put it back on top during upkeep, draw it again, attack for 5 again. It's not something I want to play but it's something I wanted to list in case someone wants to do something with it.
Also note that I don't run Reliquary Tower, I noticed while playtesting that the only way to put back a card from my hand into my library (like Panglacial Wurm or Dryad Arbor for some Lost in the Woods shenanigans) is by discarding it and activating my general (it has to be a creature obviously).
I started looking at 9-cmc creatures for my curve and... Nullstone Gargoyle. Pretty stupid card, but it could fit. I can sac it when I'm bored. If I'm well setupped (like after saccing Woodfall Primus to Birthing Pod), that could win the game on its own. Blightsteel Colossus is the other creature that I would call an alternate win-condition and a game-ender in some situations that could be worth considering. Besides GSZ, everything else cheats creatures into play with no color restriction. A 11/11 trample infect indestructible creature can definitely be annoying and kill a player on the spot, even the one with the best boardstate. Also, I can sac it to shuffle my deck (it only shuffles itself as a replacement effect and can't be responsed to).
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Really important change although it's only 1 card. Blightsteel Colossus is just the alternate win I was looking for, it's something really huge to cheat into play at instant speed and it can alpha strike someone.
Now, on keeping Lightning Greaves but not Thousand-Year Elixir: The only situations where I need haste are: Hua Tuo, Fauna Shaman and Blightsteel Colossus. I didn't see (yet) spot removal used on Hua Tuo, he's not enough of a threat, and I'm mono-green, I just play it again from my commandzone if I need to. So this doesn't even qualify. Thousand-Year Elixir works with 2 cards in my deck, it's really lackluster. Lightning Greaves also protects the creature, and I now have 3 targetting effects in Skullclamp, Quirion Ranger and Yavimaya Hollow, and I think I can just play around that just fine. Spike Weaver and Beast Within don't really qualify as I already said. Giving haste to Dryad Arbor for free is also more relevant than one would think.
Last but not least, let's look at a couple of Tooth and Nail possibilities.
Nullstone Gargoyle is still on my watchlist as a 9-CMC creature for Birthing Pod. Worldspine Wurm is somewhere on the watchlist too, I guess. I will see once I play a couple more games with 99 cards, but I already like how it is right now. I'm not sure if Ashnod's Altar is really needed since I already have a high number of sac effects but the reason I'm keeping it is Verdant Succession with Hua Tuo. The more I have repeatable sac effets, the better it gets and I like the reliability also.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Oh, I didn't notice you chose a green guy. Cool, goodstuff'y deck with a few awesome cards that work with your commander - you don't think Verdant Succession when you think EDH. Is Into the North worth the tap for the ability to hit Ronom/Sheets? I'd just run Nature's Lore if I were you.
Oh, I didn't notice you chose a green guy. Cool, goodstuff'y deck with a few awesome cards that work with your commander - you don't think Verdant Succession when you think EDH. Is Into the North worth the tap for the ability to hit Ronom/Sheets? I'd just run Nature's Lore if I were you.
Yeah, I really really hate reading that I'm running a goodstuff deck though. I try not to run too many goodstuff cards actually but cards that really make the deck work. I hate the fact that I have to run Tooth and Nail, Craterhoof Behemoth and Avenger of Zendikar but it's too strong in mono-green to not run it, especially when you play a general dedicated to creatures. This is also the only deck where this is acceptable in my own standards to run Sensei's Divining Top. While it's a "goodstuff" card, it is not played only as a goodstuff card in this deck, it's played because of the synergy I'm trying to build with top deck manipulation (Lurking Predators, Call of the Wild, Into the Wilds and Lost in the Woods, mostly).
In short, I think my own standards for building a deck are well different than what we mostly see, I like to play different cards and yes, Hua Tuo makes Verdant Succession working with any sac outlet (I play a lot) during my first main phase (also note that this is a repeatable shuffle effect in any case if it's not my turn, and shuffling is really important with this deck). I can't say building this deck is as much a challenge as it would have been to build a Primal Surge deck or a mono-green creatureless deck (maybe something with Sasaya, Orochi Ascendant), but I feel like I still managed to make weird cards working together. Summoning Trap, See the Unwritten or Panglacial Wurm with Greater Good, Momentous Fall and Life's Legacy are good examples (I think) of this. I'm really happy with Blightsteel Colossus right now too, it's not really played in EDH.
About Into the North, I agree that this is a really close call. I playtested Nature's Lore and Three Visits in an earlier version of the deck, with Cultivate and Kodama's Reach but this deck really prefers Farhaven Elf and Wood Elves. For this reason, I removed all of the sorcery ramp and added a couple more creatures like Solemn Simulacrum and Sakura-Tribe Elder instead. Into the North is different though. Yes, the land comes into play tapped. But being able to cheat Ronom/Sheets is actually huge and always really relevant. Scrying Sheets really shines with so many cards dedicated to top deck manipulation. I usually can only go through 3 cards (Top, Mirri's Guile, Sylvan Library), so Scrying Sheets give me a little more depth by drawing an extra card when I really need to go deeper into my deck. From the playtesting last night, I can already say that this deck can put 20 lands on the battlefield quite consistently. Mana is only a problem if I want to play 3 7/8-drops in the same turn (which actually happens). And even then, Gaea's Cradle does an awesome job.
This is the reason why I only kept Into the North. The fact that I don't really have anything to deal with creatures besides Beast Within, Silklash Spider and Mouth of Ronom is also a consideration, since Ronom deals with most problematic creatures/generals in the format. This is also worth something, really. And when played on turn 2, tapped or untapped, the extra land is rarely used anyway.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Quick note:
Worst cards to see from my opponents would definitely be Stranglehold (and other newrly functional reprints), Widespread Panic, Torpor Orb and Humility. I have the tools to deal with those cards, but it still can really hurt the deck.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
I didn't want to offend by calling this goodstuffy, your design philosophy states that the deck needs to function without the commander and goodstuff's the way to accomplish it. Heck, my Patron of the Orochi is grade A jank, but it still runs Tooth and Nail and Craterhoof Behemoth
Point taken about the top-of-library manipulation, you do put the sheets to good use. As for removal, you should find a spot for Song of the Dryads. It's so beautifully disgusting.
I didn't want to offend by calling this goodstuffy, your design philosophy states that the deck needs to function without the commander and goodstuff's the way to accomplish it. Heck, my Patron of the Orochi is grade A jank, but it still runs Tooth and Nail and Craterhoof Behemoth
well, looking at my Norin list, I hardly see any "goodstuff" card to be honest. It really depends on what I play. I have to play Ugin and All is Dust in Ixidor, but that's because I'm playing a nearly colorless decks with artifacts and face-down creatures. I'm playing Invoke Prejudice for the same reasons.
It has to be within the philosophy of the deck, within the theme. I'm not completely prisoner of the theme (at least I hardly try not to be, but I'm also trying really hard to follow my theme or the global philosophy of the deck, this is what makes it work with and without the general after all), I'm playing Imperial Recruiter in Norin even if the creature theme is mostly goblins (which Norin isn't), and I have Trinket Mage and Torpor Orb in the same deck, but I'm still really careful about all these details.
Point taken about the top-of-library manipulation, you do put the sheets to good use. As for removal, you should find a spot for Song of the Dryads. It's so beautifully disgusting.
Thanks, I got no ideas why I forgot about Lignify and Song of the Dryads. That last one is definitely more versatile since it can target any problematic permanent, whatever it is. I could even use some forestwalk creature in conjunction to it.
It's definitely going to be added, it's as good if not better than Beast Within (which doesn't deal with Gods for example). I totally need this. You play Purphoros as a general? Fine, try to sac a forest now...
-- also, isn't Yavimaya Dryad kind of better than Farhaven Elf? Besides the fact that it's 1GG instead of 2G... this has forestwalk too.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Could be removed:
- Farhaven Elf: how many of these do I need?
- Regrowth: Eternal Witness is both tutorable and recurrable, and my general has some built-in recursion; besides creatures, I might want to recur one or two enchantments but I don't think I need to run multiple of this, this is the perfect definition of a goodstuff card.
- Lightning Greaves: it is really necessary? I think it's really good.
- Krosan Grip or Beast Within: with the addition of Song of the Dryads, I have to think about it: do I really need 3 of these? Krosan Grip looks to be the worst, especially with Acidic Slime, Reclamation Sage, Brutalizer Exarch and Woodfall Primus that deals mostly with anything besides creatures.
Since I want more creatures at the end of the day, I'm thinking about removing Krosan Grip and Regrowth. Rumpy5897, do you have any thoughts on this?
It might be worth to say again that this deck looks to be really consistent when I need to find a specific card. I got so many ways to shuffle my deck and a couple of ways to look at the top 2 or 3 cards too. Beating Torpor Orb should still be doable without K-Grip.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
I'm sorry, I don't have your lists memorised I just remember reading your Horobi at some point and seeing you were still TBD on a green and white, and then saw you have a green. I don't remember your Norin at all. I don't think I looked at your Ixidor either. I was just referencing the philosophy you stated in the OP, not meaning to offend or anything
I guess you can upgrade the elf into the dryad. I seemed to recall there being effects that can steal the forest from you (as in shift the target of the ability), but I can't seem to find them for whatever reason.
From my experience with playing green, you usually want your removal to be as cheap as possible and as hit-all as possible. For that reason, Beast Within stays - it's essentially a green Vindicate, and having two of those in your deck is never a bad idea. If anything, I'd suggest cutting Acidic Slime. True, it hits many types of permanents, and leaves behind a rattlesnake body, but it costs 5 mana and doesn't seem to offer much in the way of a functionality increase over Reclamation Sage. That is, unless lands repeatedly harsh your mellow, but somehow the list doesn't seem like something that would have its mellow repeatedly harshed by lands. Krosan Grip may not be hit-all, but it's so hard to interact with that I'd leave it on that alone. Lightning Greaves are nice, Regrowth is nice. Try swapping in the song for the slime and see how it plays out for you?
Slime does 2 different things that make it nearly untouchable. First, it's creature, really easy to tutor and cheat at instant speed with this deck. Easy to recur. It's already better than Song of the Dryads in this deck only for that reason. I can't tutor Songof the Dryads, and it's hard to recur too. Second, deathtouch. Cheated into play at instant speed, it's the only creature I have that will reliably kill another creature no matter what. It's really better than what you give it credit for. Finally, I currently have 4 creatures at 5-CMC for Birthing Pod, and when we look at the 3 other ones, you quickly see that Acidic Slime is the only really interesting one.
I used to play a really competitive Edric deck in the past and Krosan Grip could never make the cut because it wasn't a creature. I'm trying to up the creature count right now, not cutting creatures. At 30 creatures, I feel this is just correct for cards like Lurking Predatora and Call of the Wild to work. I was feeling kinda bad about it wheni was playing 26-27 in an earlier version of the deck. Summoning Trap and See if the Unwritten must hit too. Having creatures like Acidic Slime really helps getting value. I conaider Terastodon to be better than Grip in this specific deck only because of the high density of spells cheating creatures into play. Krosan Grip just goes to the graveyard when revealed through See the Unwritten.
I agree about Greavea and Beast Within, I don't think I can touch these cards right now.
I could certainly remove Farhaven Elf as it's the worse of the 3 (Wood Elves and Yavinaya Dryad). But I'm going down to 29 creatures in doing so.
Krosan Grip is actually really overrated. The only reason to play instant-speed spot removal is cards like Torpor Orb and Humility. Things that Woodfall Primus couldn't get rid of. The question is do I need 3 response to those cards, or is 2 enough. I already explained than this deck is good at digging when I need a specific card. I think 2 is more than enough. For the same reasons, I don't think I need Regrowth. I had it when playing Tueaday and it was a dead card, i never got a situation where I want to use it. It's weird to say but i don't eant this or Witness in my opening hand. What I want is to be able to tutor it up when I need it. Witness wins easily.
Yes, Yavinaya Dryad's ability can be directed, but Dryad Arbor is a Forest, and Homeward Path is something that works with Deyad Arbor or Kamahl. It's pretty much negligible.
I think I will hold on to my ideas for now - but I really appreciate having other opinions too. Song of the Dryada was really a big omission.
Thank you!
For the moment, I won't be playing Krosan Grip and Regrowth. And I will get a little bit further from just playing goodstuff cards that way.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Nearly completed the deck (95 cards out of 99) and went 2-0 playing multiplayer games this afternoon (3 player).
Panglacial Wurm is awesome. I don't plan on making any change at the moment, I really like how the deck is going. I win a game with Blightsteel and the other one with Tooth and Nail for Kamalh+Behemoth, killing one player, the other one managed to wrath my board but I quickly recover again by playing speed the 9/5 Wurm and attacking with it. Always having it in my deck is awesome. As long as I don't draw it, I'm good. I did play Hua Tuo twice in 2 games, not a lot, I just had better things to do. Also, in both games, I managed to hit 20+ lands on the battlefield. Not playing all the cheap 2-cmc ramp and playing instead creatures like Seedguide Ash or a sorcery like Boundless Realms really helps.
Tonight, played a 2-hour 4-player game. I misplayed quite a lot to be honest and this is why I lost the game. The deck is really tricky to play, with Hua Tuo and Survival of the Fittest, I can do a couple of nice tricks, like putting Dryad Arbor on top every turn for Lost in the Woods, or playing around Teferi's Puzzle Box that a Grenzo player had.
Anyway, I noticed a couple of things during that really long rally: Blightsteel is VERY POWERFUL, and very hard to deal with. Especially when your opponent got it from a turn 4 Bribery. Play it at your own risk I guess! This is why I have Homeward Path but I don't have any way to tutor it, I just have to go deep in my decklist, which is impossible by turn 5.
I didn't play Call of the Wild and Lurking Predator, but that's just because I didn't really draw these cards, and when I could, I already had 20+ mana and tried to just draw what I wanted through Crystal Ball and Top. What it does mean, however, is that I can win without Plan A.
In a 4 player game, I really need to go defense. Playing Behemoth or Kamalh too soon is rarely a good play, even if I can kill a player. I'm just getting smashed after that. I'm better off going with Spike Weaver and Lost in the Woods and slowly play a couple of enchantments and grinding the game by playing Acidic Slime than going for a big creature early game. When I go offense, I have to be sure that I will be able to handle what's left of my opponents after it.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Cheap budget alternative win instead of Blighsteel Colossus: Shaman of Forgotten Ways. The 2 conditions (11 mana and 8 power) aren't really a problem. Killing your opponents' creatures could be.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Game 2 I had a pretty good draw with turn 1 Top and I just went from there with a couple of tutors (Survival of the Fittest is insanely good). He had Sylvan Library and took a bunch of damage with it (about 16 damages, maybe 20) while I was just attacking with a couple of value creatures (Reclamation Sage and the likes).
Game 3 I topdecked Craterhoof Behemoth with 6 creatures on the battlefield, that was too much.
Game 4 and 5 my opponent keeps complaining that I'm always drawing the right cards at the right moment, which was definitely the case. The ability to shuffle the deck so many times with Scroll Rack definitely helps. He had Sterling Grove on the battlefield and he played Privileged Position, but I had Chord of Calling to flash Reclamation Sage and destroy Grove in response. A lot of plays like that. I realized after that play that if I couldn't destroy Grove in response to Privileged Position, I was just dead. Bane of Progress is really a card I need to reconsider against that kind of enchantment deck, and it's an awesome card in multiplayer too when it's well timed.
I lost the last game we played to Humility and then a bunch of planeswalkers. I don't have much against Humility, I have Song of the Dryads and Beast Within and that's about it. I shuffled my deck hundreds of times thanks to Verdant Succession and I had Top in play and a lot of enchantments to get more and more cards but I wasn't able to get either of the 2 above cards in time. I don't really want to add Krosan Grip but I definitely need some mix of Bane of Progress and Krosan Grip. Also, I don't have any tutorable sac outlet (creature sac outlet), which would be really useful (probably more than Ashnod's Altar really).
I will need to sleep on this, but I must say that I'm impressed by how good the deck performed, since I really built it from scratch. A couple of changes and it will be even more solid.
If Bane of Progress was written the same way as Ixidron (replacement effect instead of ETB trigger), that would deal with Humility and Torpor Orb and would be just so awesome. Sadly, it doesn't work ;p.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Skullmulcher is an interesting creature that can act as a sac outlet. It's not exactly Regal Force because it doesn't work really well with Tooth and Nail, but this is something I still have to look at because I'm really struggling to find sac outlets for Woodfall Primus when I need it.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Another card that is really underpar right now is Genesis. The thing is... I never tutor it, I never want it in my hand and I never really want it in play either. The only moment where I want it is with Survival of the Fittest. Even Fauna Shaman at one activation per turn is too slow.
Is Survival of the Fittest worth playing Genesis? I don't think so. It's a little bit win-more. Also, my general has the ability to give me a creature to draw every turn by putting one on top on my upkeep (instead of Genesis).
Genesis is still a good card but I don't believe it's doing enough right now. It's as slow as Hua Tuo since I have to wait until my upkeep. I also noticed that my opponents tend to play a lot of graveyard hate against me, so I play a lot around that by not putting more than 2-3 creatures at the same time in the yard, except for really irrevelant ones.
It's like Ashnod's Altar. Great card that could work with the deck but it just doesn't do enough with the rest of the deck.
The more I think about it, the more I like both Bane of Progress and Skullmulcher. Although not being a repeatable sac outlet, it's a tutorable one, which is really all I need. I don't want to sac multiple creatures, usually just one, either Primus for persist or another creature with good ETB trigger with Verdant Succession and Hua Tuo. In both cases, the fact that all my sac outlets are non-creature is a problem right now. Also, any creature with "draw" written on it is pretty good with Hua Tuo, considering he puts cards on top of my library, not in my hand. So it's kind of a more synergyzed Genesis, isn't it? That's a way to see it.
Adding Bane in Progress and Skullmulcher means I have what I wanted: mass removal on a creature (and fits nicely at 6 for the Pod curve, can't always get Slime or Sage or Primus) and a more consistent sac outlet.
Now, 2 things I miss really bad are creature removal (Duplicant?) and mass non-creature removal not based on creatures (something else that gets around Humility/Orb). It could be anything from Krosan Grip to All is Dust, I realize it won't be tutorable either but I will at least have 3 answers instead of 2 to the most problematic cards against my deck, which is 50% more chances to find one everytime I shuffle and look at my top 3.
I will also need to find 2 other spots in my list for those cards. Silklash Spider may need to go if I add both Duplicant and a big boardwipe. My 3-CMC creatures also need to be questioned since I have a lot and with the high density of tutoring in this deck, I never want Courser because I always get Oracle anyway.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
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1 Hua Tuo, Honored Physician
Creatures: 33
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Ulvenwald Tracker
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Farhaven Elf
1 Fierce Empath
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Wood Elves
1 Yavimaya Dryad
1 Yavimaya Elder
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
1 Spike Weaver
1 Acidic Slime
1 Seedguide Ash
1 Skullmulcher
1 Bane of Progress
1 Brutalizer Exarch
1 Duplicant
1 Kamahl, Fist of Krosa
1 Woodland Bellower
1 Avenger of Zendikar
1 Garruk's Horde
1 Hornet Queen
1 Panglacial Wurm
1 Regal Force
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Scroll Rack
1 Crystal Ball
1 Birthing Pod
1 Helm of Possession
Sorceries: 8
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Into the North
1 Life's Legacy
1 Sylvan Scrying
1 Genesis Wave
1 See the Unwritten
1 Boundless Realms
1 Tooth and Nail
Instants: 5
1 Worldly Tutor
1 Beast Within
1 Chord of Calling
1 Momentous Fall
1 Summoning Trap
Enchantments: 11
1 Mirri's Guile
1 Survival of the Fittest
1 Sylvan Library
1 Song of the Dryads
1 Call of the Wild
1 Greater Good
1 Into the Wilds
1 Lost in the Woods
1 Perilous Forays
1 Verdant Succession
1 Lurking Predators
1 Garruk, Caller of Beasts
Lands: 36
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Homeward Path
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Mouth of Ronom
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Scrying Sheets
26 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Yavimaya Hollow
After making a couple of decklists based on other mono-green general, I found out that Hua Tuo, Honored Physician is what I'd really like to play because it's really different from what I currently play (see my sig), it looks non-threatening for my opponents, it can be built around pretty well while not having to only rely on him to win (he doesn't really win by himself, actually).
Also, since I use both the 1v1 and the multiplayer banlists for all my decks, the announcement of Sensei's Divining Top being now unbanned in 1v1 really encouraged me building this deck, because it's one of the best card to go with Hua Tuo. I was looking for a deck to put a Top in, and my 3 other mono-colored decks didn't have any specific synergy to make Sensei's Divining Top really shine. This deck does.
With that said, here's my current work (still in progress, a lot of work still to do), by card category for now (because it's more important than card types for now):
1x Hua Tuo, Honored Physician
Top deck manipulation:
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sylvan Library
1 Mirri's Guile
1 Worldly Tutor
1 Scroll Rack
1 Crystal Ball
Top deck abuse:
1 Scrying Sheets
1 Lurking Predators
1 Timesifter
1 Lost in the Woods
1 Into the Wilds
1 Call of the Wild
1 Garruk's Horde
1 Summoning Trap
1 Garruk, Caller of Beasts
Sac outlets:
1 High Market
1 Miren, the Moaning Well
1 Perilous Forays
1 Momentous Fall
1 Birthing Pod
1 Ashnod's Altar
Shuffling the deck:
1 Chord of Calling
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Survival of the Fittest
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Farhaven Elf
1 Wood Elves
1 Yavimaya Elder
1 Into the North
1 Nature's Lore
1 Rampant Growth
1 Three Visits
1 Cultivate
1 Kodama's Reach
1 Skyshroud Claim
1 Hunting Wilds
1 Ranger's Path
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Spike Weaver
1 Acidic Slime
1 Terastodon
1 Woodfall Primus
Finishers:
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Avenger of Zendikar
Other lands:
1 Mouth of Ronom
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Winding Canyons
1 Yavimaya Hollow
1 Dryad Arbor
30 Snow-Covered Forest
Other stuff:
1 Tooth and Nail
1 Vernal Bloom
1 Harmonize
1 Thousand-Year Elixir
1 Beast Within
1 Swiftfoot Boots
1 Krosan Grip
1 Genesis Wave
Maybeboard:
1 Descendants' Path
1 Verdant Succession
1 Natural Selection
1 Reclaim
1 Cauldron of Souls
1 Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Panglacial Wurm
1 Yeva, Nature's Herald
1 Vedalken Orrery
1 Greater Good
I think you pretty much get an idea of what I'm trying to do here. Now, I don't know if I'm doing it right, if playing all the sorcery ramps is worth it, it's mostly how I shuffle my deck if my top X cards aren't what I want (after Scroll Rack, S.D.Top, Mirri's Guile, Sylvan Library).
Also, I'm trying to find more consistent ways to win the game. Tooth and Nail and G-Wave will eventually get me to Behemoth+Avenger and I have a couple of other ways to tutor these creatures, but I'd like to be able to win without these 2 (if it gets exiled for example). Timesifter is also a really weird card on its own, not sure it will stick in my list but it's pretty crazy if I can find enough win conditions (since it may exile win conditions, and that's why I need more).
I wouldn't mind Helix Pinnacle if I could get to 100 mana without infinite combos (I don't play any infinite combo, sorry, personal preferences here). Mana doublers can definitely help, I only have one on my list and even though I'm playing snow lands, I'd prefer to pass on Extraplanar Lens because it's really vulnerable and I don't really have any artifact tutor in there anyway, so I prefer to play more consistent spells (Mana Reflection would already be a good start).
Not sure if I want Gaea's Cradle but I would really like to make a green deck that doesn't need/want it. I don't think this deck will be able to put a lot of creatures on the battlefield early game so that's probably a good reason enough to not play it. I also don't want to play all the 1-cmc mana dorks, because spells like Cultivate give me more value (2 for 1, shuffle my deck) and don't go after Toxic Deluge, which tends to happen a lot in multiplayer. Even though Hua Tuo likes having creatures, I feel like Sakura and Yavimaya can get the job done since I also get extra value of these, board wipes or not.
Any thoughts? Can this work? What about my maybeboard? The Verdant Succession + sac outlet + Hua Tuo is certainly interesting. But I need to keep in mind that Hua Tuo also has a timing restriction, although I can activate it during my upkeep or in response to something on the stack, it still has to be before my first declare attackers step (not that I plan to have multiple combat phases but anyway).
My own rules when building a deck: legal in the official US Commander banlist, legal in the French duel 1v1 Commander banlist, no infinite combo possible, no hard lock.
Also: fun to play with, fun to play against, original with cards people don't see too often, tier 2 or tier 3 underrated general, the deck must work without the general but the general also has to be a really good option/complement to the deck.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
would act as a second Oracle of Mul Daya and a little extra lifegain on a bigger body and a cheaper price
[EDH In Development] Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Queen Marchesa | Ruhan of the Fomori | Yahenni, Undying Partisan
[EDH Retired] Ertai, The Corrupted | Sigarda, Host of Herons | Tariel, Reckoner of Souls | Korlash, Heir to Blackblade
[Modern] Stuffy Doll Combo Burn | Demigod of Revenge
Good suggestion, since I will play with my top deck a lot, anything that can give me card advantage is good.
The only "problem" could be my curve, from 1-cmc to 8 right now, I have 4, 9, 16, 9, 7, 6, 4 and 2. It's a lot of 3-cmc spells and my general is also 3-cmc (but I definitely don't have to play it on turn 3).
Timesifter might not be as good as I would like it to be, even with top deck manipulation I'm not sure I'm playing a big enough density of high casting cost spell to justify the exile part. In 1v1 it's definitely really good but it will be more difficult to make it work against 3 opponents, they won't have lands everytime.
I think I should play the 4 fetch lands. I really don't like fetch lands because it's a waste of time for mono-colored decks but Dryad Arbor is a forest and the more shuffle effects I got, the better Scroll Rack, Top and Mirri's Guile get.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Another sac-outlet could be Life's Legacy. Never had any experience with it myself, but it's cheap. A shame it isn't an instant.
Maybe Fecundity could work if you rely on getting your guys in and our of the yard. I like that card alot, but sure, you have to control who gets the most out of it!
I think I would tone down the number of shuffling effects, but Crop Rotation might be one I would add to grab a land I really want.
I really don't like the sorcery speed and this is why I think Momentous Fall is better. It is however aggressively priced, but I don't think I need too many one-time sacrifice spells. Ashnod's Altar is definitely the best sac outlet I have right now.
Too dangerous without dedicated support, I'm playing mono-green and creatures die a lot in this format.
I removed a couple of land searcher actually, you can see a more updated list here: http://decks.deckedbuilder.com/d/58278 Cultivate and Kodama's Reach are gone and besides creatures, I only kept Into the North (definitely the best one as it gets both Scrying Sheets and Mouth of Ronom) and Skyshroud Claim (might cut that one too, I'll see). Added Sylvan Scrying instead (which is better than Crop Rotation in this format, IMO).
I tweaked the mana base a little bit. Cradle should be good, even without mana dorks (which are just bad in multiplayer I think, this is why Sakura is so much better).
A couple of interesting notes:
- Kamahl, Fist of Krosa is a good protection against wrath effects, especially if I can cheat him at instant speed with Call of the Wild; the other interesting part is with Ashnod's Altar, as it turns every Forest into 2 mana for a giant Genesis Wave (not that I particularly want to do that, but it can be a game winner.
- Panglacial Wurm is really just something I wanna try: I have a really high density of repeatable shuffle-effects and I can put it back in my library with my general. It works at instant speed, so it's pretty interesting, I can just Worldly Tutor in combat phase to cast it. Looks interesting enough to be worth a try IMO, also pretty good with Greater Good and Momentous Fall.
- Verdant Succession + Hua Tuo: what is more interesting than Craterhoof Behemoth? 2 Craterhoof Behemoths. The same could be said of a lot of creatures in this deck. Just sac it to any sac effect (Greater Good is pretty juicy), in response to Verdant's trigger, put it on top on of the library, then put it in play again, draw cards, attack and win. With Thousand-Year Elixir, if the sac effect is repeatable, we can do this a 3rd time (because 3 Craterhoof Behemoth etb triggers are even better, and I'm not even talking about the fact than you can stack it up with Woodfall Primus to destroy 6 permanents).
- Lost in the Woods: pretty defensive card, works with Dryad Arbor (which can be targetted with Hua Tuo or Worldly Tutor). It is not "you may" though, so if 20 tokens are attacking, we decide the order for the 20 triggers and will reveal 20 cards eventually. Should still be enough to remove a couple of attackers, especially if we have top deck manipulation available. And the good thing about it is that it doesn't target.
- Perilous Forays: another repeatable sac outlet, pretty good with Verdant Succession and Seedguide Ash if I never want to draw a Forest again.
- Fauna Shaman and Survival of the Fittest: as you might have notice, my general does put back creatures on the top of my deck from my graveyard. Repeatable shuffling effect, and did I mention Genesis?
- Birthing Pod: the 7-cmc crowd looks a little bit too big right now but I don't really count Krosan Tusker and Panglacial Wurm. That gives me a pretty nice creature curve, from 0-cmc to 8-cmc: 1, 4, 8, 2, 3, 2, 4, 2. I will need maybe one more 4-cmc creature to make this better.
- Lifeblood Hydra: really not sure on that one, doesn't work really great with Genesis Wave or Call in the Wild. It's a good card but it will probably get cut.
- Swiftfoot Boots: that could be Concordant Crossroads, but the former is safer.
I'm pretty satisfied right now but there is still a little bit of fine tuning to do before I buy everything and start really playtesting, but it looks like it could win some games. Not sure if I should play Regrowth. I probably should. Woodland Guidance might be better than Regrowth in this specific deck though. I could also just play both. Recross the Paths is the only other clash-mechanic card worth considering.
Also note that Krosan Grip is my only response to Torpor Orb (and the white flash flying creature doing the same effect) and Humility right now, which is a problem. I probably need a board wipe tbh, not creature based. Something like Oblivion Stone maybe, since All is Dust doesn't get rid of Torpor Orb and Perilous Vault exiles my creatures in play. Freyalise is another interesting option, altough only for enchantments and artifacts.
Skullclamp also considered, but I'm bored of playing it in every deck... they probably should ban it lol.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Considering: Quirion Ranger and Scryb Ranger.
Untapping my general can be good, Thousand-Year Elixir is obviously better.
Both creatures return a forest to my hand, which can be Dryad Arbor. Also, weirdly, I got no 1-cmc creature, so I can't start to Pod by saccing Dryad Arbor. But this is EDH, so I can just sac Hua Tuo which is fine, I don't really feel the need to start the curve at 0 and I'm not sure how good it would be to have multiple activations of Hua Tuo in my turn. But being able to sac Dryad for Quirion to have 2 activations of Hua Tuo in the same turn... it can't be bad. I can also untap Dryad Arbor by returning another forest to my hand if I need one extra mana (at the cost of tempo).
Flying can be a problem too in my deck right now, which is an argument for Scryb Ranger. Maybe I should play both.
Any thoughts on this? Let's say I have 12 lands in play with Call of the Wild. Do I want to activate Hua Tuo 3 times? Probably. The only downside is the timing restriction, I need to do Hua Tuo's activations on my turn.
Edit: I think the deck screams for even more creatures, so I made a little list of cards I could remove if I want to add those 2 above or any other utility creature.
Harmonize: it's good, but repeatable effect like Greater Good are obviously better.
Momentous Fall: as much as I like this card, Greater Good is probably better, and I'm not sure it's really needed.
Tooth and Nail: this one honestly doesn't do much for the gameplan. Yes, it's a good card, it's in every goodstuff deck, but even if I get Primus and Slime, the value isn't that big, and Behemoth with Avenger only wins if I already have a couple of creatures that can attack. Maybe I should add Regal Force, since Avenger+Regal Force is really sweet.
Summoning Trap and See the Unwritten: I like what these cards do, but it's 1 time only.
Garruk, Primal Hunter: if I add Regal Force, this is pretty much was it should replace. Having 2 Garruks is kind of weird for Genesis Wave. I'm not sure if the tokens are that valuable, Garruk Wildspeaker also produces tokens at 4 mana and can overrun too. Tough choice.
Krosan Tusker: I added Solemn Simulacrum in my last version of the deck. Do I still need Krosan Tusker? The only plus is with Fierce Empath or if I don't have a sac outlet.
Phyrexian Revoker: really situational. I have tons of way to tutor it or cheat it. It shuts down planeswalkers and a couple of generals like Marath, and it works against Sol Ring too. I love it, but I also need to make some place for what might be better cards...
Really hard right now. I think I could remove Momentous Fall and Garruk, Primal Hunter if I add Regal Force, I have so many ways to get creatures in play, but Regal Force doesn't draw me as many cards as the 2 other cards except if I have Avenger of Zendikar. Harmonize is probably the worst, but it's consistent, it's a good card.
The more I add creatures, the more Earthcraft gets good too, altought I really don't want to go infinite with Squirrel Nest, it can be a good card by itself.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
I also REALLY want to make place for Quirion Ranger right now, as it's something really cheap easily available for my general if I need to. Regal Force is the other creature I'm looking at right now. Not sure what to remove though, I don't know if the 2 Garruks are really good, I'm still a little bit undecided about See the Unwritten and Summoning Trap, I think instant speed is really superior but the sorcery speed one can get 2 creatures and also put cards in my graveyard instead of back into my library (not sure what's better, I still think Summoning Trap is but should I play both?).
Momentous Fall and Life's Legacy is another I'm scratching my head with right now. Harmonize is the other non-permanent draw spell I play actually. I'd definitely prefer to have Regal Force somewhere, just for the interaction with Avenger of Zendikar, having Tooth and Nail and a lot of tutors overall in my deck (and at least, Regal Force should draw me 2-3 cards with my general and Dryad Arbor anyway).
Panglacial Wurm, as much as I like the surprise effect and the 9 power, it's a 7-cmc card vanilla. Yes, if I top deck Greater Good and I have a fetch land in play, it's the nuts. Or with Momentous Fall and Life's Legacy. I still don't know if I want to play all these draw effects though.
Also, Krosan Tusker. The only reason it's there is Fierce Empath, just in case, but I really don't like it.
Anyway, right now:
+ Silklash Spider
- Oblivion Stone
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
- Phyrexian Revoker
Doesn't work with Green Sun's Zenith, also doesn't really work with Birthing Pod when you look at how many 1-CMC creatures I play (currently 0, but I'm adding one, see below). The fact that it is harder to cheat it into play is kind of a problem, so I will keep this for my future mono-white deck maybe (planning to make some kind of hatebear deck, I'll see)
- Garruk, Primal Hunter
This one doesn't fit the deck as good as Garruk, Caller of the Beasts. The -3 is basically Life's Legacy for 5 mana, without having to sac a creature, which is both a good and bad thing, since the creature could be destroyed in response and I could end up drawing 0 card for 5 mana, which is really bad. The +1 and the -6 aren't really what I'm trying to do either.
- Harmonize
It's sad to see this go, but I had to make a decision between Krosan Tusker and this. It looks weird since both cards are really different, but they accomplish something really similar: draw the card on top of my library. With Hua Tuo, it's something important. The difference is that Tusker is uncounterable, can be put back on top of my library at each upkeep to give me, for 3 mana, the card I would draw otherwise anyway and then a basic land. It can be really good in multiplayer in some more grindy matchup, also the fact that I'm discarding it as part of the activation of its ability means that I can put it back on top in response to the actual draw ability (after the triggered search ability resolved), if I want to thin my deck even more for some reasons.
- Miren, the Moaning Well
I currently have 38 mana-producing lands, but that does count Dryad Arbor (vulnerable) and Gaea's Cradle (there are situations where this doesn't produce mana). In any case, I'm also looking at a lot of cheap spells to get lands: Sensei's Divining Top, Sylvan Library, Mirri's Guile, Courser of Kruphix, Scroll Rack, Oracle of Mul Daya, Into the North, Sylvan Scrying, Yavimaya Elder, Wood Elves, Farhaven Elf, many others and any creature-searcher into Dryad Arbor. I think I have A LOT to go through my deck for lands and this is why I'm going down to 37 lands, the same number of mana-producing lands as I play in every other mono-colored deck.
--------------
+ Regal Force
I probably have too many 7-CMC creatures for my tastes, but as I said before, I don't refer to Krosan Tusker and Panglacial Wurm as 7-CMC creatures in my Pod curve. Regal Force is really good with Tooth and Nail and Avenger of Zendikar when I can't kill everybody with Craterhoof Behemoth, it's also, besides Solemn Simulacrum and Krosan Tusker, the only creature in this deck with "draw cards" written on it, which can be useful too. Worst case scenario I should be able to draw 2 cards out of this if I play it wisely. Also, having more high-costed creatures isn't that bad for a deck that plays Call of the Wild and Lurking Predators. Just need to be careful with that last one, since the "may" part only applies when it's not a creature.
+ Quirion Ranger
Already discussed why I want this so bad. So now this is.
+ Helm of Possession
Just a logic choice to be honest, I removed Oblivion Stone and can deal with non-creature permanents the way mono-green does; this is here for creatures, besides something like Uril, the Miststalker, I don't see many things I can't deal with right now (and Uril is just a 5/5 vanilla if I can kill auras, also if it has flying, Silklash Spider will prove itself useful).
+ Life's Legacy
I'm willing to try it instead of Harmonize. It really helps to justify Panglacial Wurm to be honest, since it will draw me 9 cards for 9 mana at worst, which is... good? For mono-green I mean. It's better than Blue Sun's Zenith, isn't it? Well, Momentous Fall has the instant speed obviously, but anyway, I don't think I'm doing anything bad by playing both.
---------------
By removing the 5-cmc Garruk, I don't have any token generation in this deck besides Avenger of Zendikar. I don't know if this is really a bad thing since I'm recurring creature cards easily and can win a lot of life if I manage to set up some kind of Eternal Witness loop with Life's Legacy for example. The little Garruk Wildspeaker could do it but I prefer Kamahl in my deck overall for the overrun effect, and even if it doesn't generate tokens, it's probably even better than that. Kamalh can just transform my lands into creatures in response to Behemoth's trigger for an alpha strike (who needs haste when you can animate lands?).
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Can't really make up my mind. Moving the Greaves (and I obviously need 2 creatures) left what could be my best asset unprotected.
Targetting cards:
Yavimaya Hollow
Thousand-Year Elixir
Quirion Ranger
Skullclamp
Other targetting cards (not gonna happen):
Spike Weaver
Beast Within
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
I also found Putrefax, definitely good with Horobi: play it, attack for 5, sac it, put it back on top during upkeep, draw it again, attack for 5 again. It's not something I want to play but it's something I wanted to list in case someone wants to do something with it.
Also note that I don't run Reliquary Tower, I noticed while playtesting that the only way to put back a card from my hand into my library (like Panglacial Wurm or Dryad Arbor for some Lost in the Woods shenanigans) is by discarding it and activating my general (it has to be a creature obviously).
I started looking at 9-cmc creatures for my curve and... Nullstone Gargoyle. Pretty stupid card, but it could fit. I can sac it when I'm bored. If I'm well setupped (like after saccing Woodfall Primus to Birthing Pod), that could win the game on its own. Blightsteel Colossus is the other creature that I would call an alternate win-condition and a game-ender in some situations that could be worth considering. Besides GSZ, everything else cheats creatures into play with no color restriction. A 11/11 trample infect indestructible creature can definitely be annoying and kill a player on the spot, even the one with the best boardstate. Also, I can sac it to shuffle my deck (it only shuffles itself as a replacement effect and can't be responsed to).
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
And... I won.
From my list above, I'm making 1 change:
- Thousand-Year Elixir
+ Blightsteel Colossus
Really important change although it's only 1 card. Blightsteel Colossus is just the alternate win I was looking for, it's something really huge to cheat into play at instant speed and it can alpha strike someone.
Now, on keeping Lightning Greaves but not Thousand-Year Elixir: The only situations where I need haste are: Hua Tuo, Fauna Shaman and Blightsteel Colossus. I didn't see (yet) spot removal used on Hua Tuo, he's not enough of a threat, and I'm mono-green, I just play it again from my commandzone if I need to. So this doesn't even qualify. Thousand-Year Elixir works with 2 cards in my deck, it's really lackluster. Lightning Greaves also protects the creature, and I now have 3 targetting effects in Skullclamp, Quirion Ranger and Yavimaya Hollow, and I think I can just play around that just fine. Spike Weaver and Beast Within don't really qualify as I already said. Giving haste to Dryad Arbor for free is also more relevant than one would think.
Last but not least, let's look at a couple of Tooth and Nail possibilities.
1) Kamalh, Fist of Kosa + Craterhoof Behemoth: assuming I have the mana, I just transform a couple of lands into 1/1s before Behemoth's triggered ability resolves and I win, attacking with my lands.
2) Blightsteel Colossus + Craterhoof Behemoth: if I have Lightning Greaves, it's as good as Concordant Crossroads in that situation.
3) Avenger of Zendikar + Craterhoof Behemoth: the old cheap way, here Concordant Crossroads would be better BUT I will try to go for plan 1 or 2 if I have Greaves instead; I plan to get Avenger for more defensive situations.
4) Any utility creatures like Silklash Spider and Brutalizer Exarch, because I need to deal with things.
5) Avenger of Zendikar + Regal Force: drawing 10+ cards is always nice.
6) Woodfall Primus + Garruk's Horde: this is the value package, isn't it?
7) Eternal Witness + something else: what's better than Tooth and Nail? Tooth and Nail + Tooth and Nail. With Gaea's Cradle on the battlefield and Avenger of Zendikar out of the first TnN, it's easier than it looks.
Nullstone Gargoyle is still on my watchlist as a 9-CMC creature for Birthing Pod. Worldspine Wurm is somewhere on the watchlist too, I guess. I will see once I play a couple more games with 99 cards, but I already like how it is right now. I'm not sure if Ashnod's Altar is really needed since I already have a high number of sac effects but the reason I'm keeping it is Verdant Succession with Hua Tuo. The more I have repeatable sac effets, the better it gets and I like the reliability also.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Yeah, I really really hate reading that I'm running a goodstuff deck though. I try not to run too many goodstuff cards actually but cards that really make the deck work. I hate the fact that I have to run Tooth and Nail, Craterhoof Behemoth and Avenger of Zendikar but it's too strong in mono-green to not run it, especially when you play a general dedicated to creatures. This is also the only deck where this is acceptable in my own standards to run Sensei's Divining Top. While it's a "goodstuff" card, it is not played only as a goodstuff card in this deck, it's played because of the synergy I'm trying to build with top deck manipulation (Lurking Predators, Call of the Wild, Into the Wilds and Lost in the Woods, mostly).
In short, I think my own standards for building a deck are well different than what we mostly see, I like to play different cards and yes, Hua Tuo makes Verdant Succession working with any sac outlet (I play a lot) during my first main phase (also note that this is a repeatable shuffle effect in any case if it's not my turn, and shuffling is really important with this deck). I can't say building this deck is as much a challenge as it would have been to build a Primal Surge deck or a mono-green creatureless deck (maybe something with Sasaya, Orochi Ascendant), but I feel like I still managed to make weird cards working together. Summoning Trap, See the Unwritten or Panglacial Wurm with Greater Good, Momentous Fall and Life's Legacy are good examples (I think) of this. I'm really happy with Blightsteel Colossus right now too, it's not really played in EDH.
About Into the North, I agree that this is a really close call. I playtested Nature's Lore and Three Visits in an earlier version of the deck, with Cultivate and Kodama's Reach but this deck really prefers Farhaven Elf and Wood Elves. For this reason, I removed all of the sorcery ramp and added a couple more creatures like Solemn Simulacrum and Sakura-Tribe Elder instead. Into the North is different though. Yes, the land comes into play tapped. But being able to cheat Ronom/Sheets is actually huge and always really relevant. Scrying Sheets really shines with so many cards dedicated to top deck manipulation. I usually can only go through 3 cards (Top, Mirri's Guile, Sylvan Library), so Scrying Sheets give me a little more depth by drawing an extra card when I really need to go deeper into my deck. From the playtesting last night, I can already say that this deck can put 20 lands on the battlefield quite consistently. Mana is only a problem if I want to play 3 7/8-drops in the same turn (which actually happens). And even then, Gaea's Cradle does an awesome job.
This is the reason why I only kept Into the North. The fact that I don't really have anything to deal with creatures besides Beast Within, Silklash Spider and Mouth of Ronom is also a consideration, since Ronom deals with most problematic creatures/generals in the format. This is also worth something, really. And when played on turn 2, tapped or untapped, the extra land is rarely used anyway.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Worst cards to see from my opponents would definitely be Stranglehold (and other newrly functional reprints), Widespread Panic, Torpor Orb and Humility. I have the tools to deal with those cards, but it still can really hurt the deck.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Point taken about the top-of-library manipulation, you do put the sheets to good use. As for removal, you should find a spot for Song of the Dryads. It's so beautifully disgusting.
well, looking at my Norin list, I hardly see any "goodstuff" card to be honest. It really depends on what I play. I have to play Ugin and All is Dust in Ixidor, but that's because I'm playing a nearly colorless decks with artifacts and face-down creatures. I'm playing Invoke Prejudice for the same reasons.
It has to be within the philosophy of the deck, within the theme. I'm not completely prisoner of the theme (at least I hardly try not to be, but I'm also trying really hard to follow my theme or the global philosophy of the deck, this is what makes it work with and without the general after all), I'm playing Imperial Recruiter in Norin even if the creature theme is mostly goblins (which Norin isn't), and I have Trinket Mage and Torpor Orb in the same deck, but I'm still really careful about all these details.
Thanks, I got no ideas why I forgot about Lignify and Song of the Dryads. That last one is definitely more versatile since it can target any problematic permanent, whatever it is. I could even use some forestwalk creature in conjunction to it.
It's definitely going to be added, it's as good if not better than Beast Within (which doesn't deal with Gods for example). I totally need this. You play Purphoros as a general? Fine, try to sac a forest now...
-- also, isn't Yavimaya Dryad kind of better than Farhaven Elf? Besides the fact that it's 1GG instead of 2G... this has forestwalk too.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Could be removed:
- Farhaven Elf: how many of these do I need?
- Regrowth: Eternal Witness is both tutorable and recurrable, and my general has some built-in recursion; besides creatures, I might want to recur one or two enchantments but I don't think I need to run multiple of this, this is the perfect definition of a goodstuff card.
- Lightning Greaves: it is really necessary? I think it's really good.
- Krosan Grip or Beast Within: with the addition of Song of the Dryads, I have to think about it: do I really need 3 of these? Krosan Grip looks to be the worst, especially with Acidic Slime, Reclamation Sage, Brutalizer Exarch and Woodfall Primus that deals mostly with anything besides creatures.
Since I want more creatures at the end of the day, I'm thinking about removing Krosan Grip and Regrowth. Rumpy5897, do you have any thoughts on this?
It might be worth to say again that this deck looks to be really consistent when I need to find a specific card. I got so many ways to shuffle my deck and a couple of ways to look at the top 2 or 3 cards too. Beating Torpor Orb should still be doable without K-Grip.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
I guess you can upgrade the elf into the dryad. I seemed to recall there being effects that can steal the forest from you (as in shift the target of the ability), but I can't seem to find them for whatever reason.
From my experience with playing green, you usually want your removal to be as cheap as possible and as hit-all as possible. For that reason, Beast Within stays - it's essentially a green Vindicate, and having two of those in your deck is never a bad idea. If anything, I'd suggest cutting Acidic Slime. True, it hits many types of permanents, and leaves behind a rattlesnake body, but it costs 5 mana and doesn't seem to offer much in the way of a functionality increase over Reclamation Sage. That is, unless lands repeatedly harsh your mellow, but somehow the list doesn't seem like something that would have its mellow repeatedly harshed by lands. Krosan Grip may not be hit-all, but it's so hard to interact with that I'd leave it on that alone. Lightning Greaves are nice, Regrowth is nice. Try swapping in the song for the slime and see how it plays out for you?
Slime does 2 different things that make it nearly untouchable. First, it's creature, really easy to tutor and cheat at instant speed with this deck. Easy to recur. It's already better than Song of the Dryads in this deck only for that reason. I can't tutor Songof the Dryads, and it's hard to recur too. Second, deathtouch. Cheated into play at instant speed, it's the only creature I have that will reliably kill another creature no matter what. It's really better than what you give it credit for. Finally, I currently have 4 creatures at 5-CMC for Birthing Pod, and when we look at the 3 other ones, you quickly see that Acidic Slime is the only really interesting one.
I used to play a really competitive Edric deck in the past and Krosan Grip could never make the cut because it wasn't a creature. I'm trying to up the creature count right now, not cutting creatures. At 30 creatures, I feel this is just correct for cards like Lurking Predatora and Call of the Wild to work. I was feeling kinda bad about it wheni was playing 26-27 in an earlier version of the deck. Summoning Trap and See if the Unwritten must hit too. Having creatures like Acidic Slime really helps getting value. I conaider Terastodon to be better than Grip in this specific deck only because of the high density of spells cheating creatures into play. Krosan Grip just goes to the graveyard when revealed through See the Unwritten.
I agree about Greavea and Beast Within, I don't think I can touch these cards right now.
I could certainly remove Farhaven Elf as it's the worse of the 3 (Wood Elves and Yavinaya Dryad). But I'm going down to 29 creatures in doing so.
Krosan Grip is actually really overrated. The only reason to play instant-speed spot removal is cards like Torpor Orb and Humility. Things that Woodfall Primus couldn't get rid of. The question is do I need 3 response to those cards, or is 2 enough. I already explained than this deck is good at digging when I need a specific card. I think 2 is more than enough. For the same reasons, I don't think I need Regrowth. I had it when playing Tueaday and it was a dead card, i never got a situation where I want to use it. It's weird to say but i don't eant this or Witness in my opening hand. What I want is to be able to tutor it up when I need it. Witness wins easily.
Yes, Yavinaya Dryad's ability can be directed, but Dryad Arbor is a Forest, and Homeward Path is something that works with Deyad Arbor or Kamahl. It's pretty much negligible.
I think I will hold on to my ideas for now - but I really appreciate having other opinions too. Song of the Dryada was really a big omission.
Thank you!
For the moment, I won't be playing Krosan Grip and Regrowth. And I will get a little bit further from just playing goodstuff cards that way.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Here are the 25 reasons:
Hua Tuo, Worldly Tutor, GSZ, COC, Call of the Wild, Lurking Predators, Birthing Pod, Summoning Trap, See the Unwritten, Brutalizer Exarch, Fauna Shaman, Survival of the Fittest, Fierce Empath, Garruk's Horde, Regal Force, Helm of Possession, Life's Legacy, Greater Good, Momentous Fall, Ashnod's Altar, Perilous Forays, Garruk Caller of Beasts, Tooth and Nail, Genesis Wave and Skullclamp.
I'm probably forgetting other cards. I think I can pretty much say that I want as many creatures as possible.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Panglacial Wurm is awesome. I don't plan on making any change at the moment, I really like how the deck is going. I win a game with Blightsteel and the other one with Tooth and Nail for Kamalh+Behemoth, killing one player, the other one managed to wrath my board but I quickly recover again by playing speed the 9/5 Wurm and attacking with it. Always having it in my deck is awesome. As long as I don't draw it, I'm good. I did play Hua Tuo twice in 2 games, not a lot, I just had better things to do. Also, in both games, I managed to hit 20+ lands on the battlefield. Not playing all the cheap 2-cmc ramp and playing instead creatures like Seedguide Ash or a sorcery like Boundless Realms really helps.
Tonight, played a 2-hour 4-player game. I misplayed quite a lot to be honest and this is why I lost the game. The deck is really tricky to play, with Hua Tuo and Survival of the Fittest, I can do a couple of nice tricks, like putting Dryad Arbor on top every turn for Lost in the Woods, or playing around Teferi's Puzzle Box that a Grenzo player had.
Anyway, I noticed a couple of things during that really long rally: Blightsteel is VERY POWERFUL, and very hard to deal with. Especially when your opponent got it from a turn 4 Bribery. Play it at your own risk I guess! This is why I have Homeward Path but I don't have any way to tutor it, I just have to go deep in my decklist, which is impossible by turn 5.
I didn't play Call of the Wild and Lurking Predator, but that's just because I didn't really draw these cards, and when I could, I already had 20+ mana and tried to just draw what I wanted through Crystal Ball and Top. What it does mean, however, is that I can win without Plan A.
In a 4 player game, I really need to go defense. Playing Behemoth or Kamalh too soon is rarely a good play, even if I can kill a player. I'm just getting smashed after that. I'm better off going with Spike Weaver and Lost in the Woods and slowly play a couple of enchantments and grinding the game by playing Acidic Slime than going for a big creature early game. When I go offense, I have to be sure that I will be able to handle what's left of my opponents after it.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
First game was a little bit harder because he had Ajani Vengeant and Elspeth, Knight-Errant early on followed by Peacekeeper. I had Garruk's Horde in play and managed to shuffle enough times to get Brutalizer Exarch to get rid of Ajani the turn before its ult, then I shuffled a couple of times again and got Beast Within for Elspeth. It was pretty much GG after that because I had a Spike Weaver and a big board presence (he managed to ult Garruk, Primal Hunter but Spike Weaver kept the Wurms at bay.
Game 2 I had a pretty good draw with turn 1 Top and I just went from there with a couple of tutors (Survival of the Fittest is insanely good). He had Sylvan Library and took a bunch of damage with it (about 16 damages, maybe 20) while I was just attacking with a couple of value creatures (Reclamation Sage and the likes).
Game 3 I topdecked Craterhoof Behemoth with 6 creatures on the battlefield, that was too much.
Game 4 and 5 my opponent keeps complaining that I'm always drawing the right cards at the right moment, which was definitely the case. The ability to shuffle the deck so many times with Scroll Rack definitely helps. He had Sterling Grove on the battlefield and he played Privileged Position, but I had Chord of Calling to flash Reclamation Sage and destroy Grove in response. A lot of plays like that. I realized after that play that if I couldn't destroy Grove in response to Privileged Position, I was just dead. Bane of Progress is really a card I need to reconsider against that kind of enchantment deck, and it's an awesome card in multiplayer too when it's well timed.
I lost the last game we played to Humility and then a bunch of planeswalkers. I don't have much against Humility, I have Song of the Dryads and Beast Within and that's about it. I shuffled my deck hundreds of times thanks to Verdant Succession and I had Top in play and a lot of enchantments to get more and more cards but I wasn't able to get either of the 2 above cards in time. I don't really want to add Krosan Grip but I definitely need some mix of Bane of Progress and Krosan Grip. Also, I don't have any tutorable sac outlet (creature sac outlet), which would be really useful (probably more than Ashnod's Altar really).
I will need to sleep on this, but I must say that I'm impressed by how good the deck performed, since I really built it from scratch. A couple of changes and it will be even more solid.
If Bane of Progress was written the same way as Ixidron (replacement effect instead of ETB trigger), that would deal with Humility and Torpor Orb and would be just so awesome. Sadly, it doesn't work ;p.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
I looked a little bit more at devour:
Still pretty limited, although flash is nice on that first one. Thoughts?
Besides the devour mechanic, there are weird things like Plaguemaw Beast, Gobbling Ooze, Elvish Skysweeper, Starved Rusalka and Changeling Titan. That's about it if I want to have a creature to sac other creatures. I think Gluttonous Slime and Skullmulcher are the best ones, although token generation with Mycoloth isn't that bad either (and devour 2 instead of 1, bigger butt for Greater Good and friends). It's not a repeatable sac outlet though (compared to Starved Rusalka), so I don't know.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Is Survival of the Fittest worth playing Genesis? I don't think so. It's a little bit win-more. Also, my general has the ability to give me a creature to draw every turn by putting one on top on my upkeep (instead of Genesis).
Genesis is still a good card but I don't believe it's doing enough right now. It's as slow as Hua Tuo since I have to wait until my upkeep. I also noticed that my opponents tend to play a lot of graveyard hate against me, so I play a lot around that by not putting more than 2-3 creatures at the same time in the yard, except for really irrevelant ones.
It's like Ashnod's Altar. Great card that could work with the deck but it just doesn't do enough with the rest of the deck.
The more I think about it, the more I like both Bane of Progress and Skullmulcher. Although not being a repeatable sac outlet, it's a tutorable one, which is really all I need. I don't want to sac multiple creatures, usually just one, either Primus for persist or another creature with good ETB trigger with Verdant Succession and Hua Tuo. In both cases, the fact that all my sac outlets are non-creature is a problem right now. Also, any creature with "draw" written on it is pretty good with Hua Tuo, considering he puts cards on top of my library, not in my hand. So it's kind of a more synergyzed Genesis, isn't it? That's a way to see it.
Adding Bane in Progress and Skullmulcher means I have what I wanted: mass removal on a creature (and fits nicely at 6 for the Pod curve, can't always get Slime or Sage or Primus) and a more consistent sac outlet.
Now, 2 things I miss really bad are creature removal (Duplicant?) and mass non-creature removal not based on creatures (something else that gets around Humility/Orb). It could be anything from Krosan Grip to All is Dust, I realize it won't be tutorable either but I will at least have 3 answers instead of 2 to the most problematic cards against my deck, which is 50% more chances to find one everytime I shuffle and look at my top 3.
I will also need to find 2 other spots in my list for those cards. Silklash Spider may need to go if I add both Duplicant and a big boardwipe. My 3-CMC creatures also need to be questioned since I have a lot and with the high density of tutoring in this deck, I never want Courser because I always get Oracle anyway.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.