I have a question about interactions, because it involves Precursor Golem and I ended up doing something else. My opponent had a sizeable board state, I had PG on the board with its two tokens, and I had Mirrorweave and Catch in my hand. What I wanted to do was turn everything into PGs so I could use Catch to steal everything and alpha strike. I didn't have the concentration at the time to quickly figure out whether that would actually work or not. Any help with that would be appreciated.
Absolutely. The only tricky part is that (assuming you only have 1 Precursor Golem) you have to target a golem token with the original Mirrorweave. Then you stack the copies of Mirrorweave so that the one targeting the genuine Precursor Golem resolves first, and everything is evactly what you want it to be. And, for what it's worth, they'd all copy Catch for all of them, so you'd gain control of every creature and untap them all for every creature, which is one of the many times one might wish Zedruu could play Earthcraft.
Ah, thank you, that is simpler than I was thinking. Four-to-five hours into the gaming session will do that.
Rotating things in the last few slots, trying to get comfortable with new cards. Raff is trying out Shimmer Myrs spot cause that seems like an easy trade. Howling Golem is both another golem to go with Precursor and a Howling Mine that you can Mirrorweave, so I have absolute intentions on making that do work, but that needs some more support, so that's an ongoing project. Locust God came out at some point, and I wanted to sneak Swans back in, so that has me testing out various burn based wrath effects. I gave Precognition Field a spin and enjoyed it, but as much as I may justify it as an infinite mana outlet or Mirror of Fate synergy, I probably only enjoy it so much because I like peeking at the top of my deck.
Mostly I've just got gotta play this deck more, because I took a brief hiatus from magic after moving recently, and got a bit out of practice playing the world's most needlessly complicated deck.
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
For another weird wincon, I'm going to test Tunnel Vision, either playing it on myself to dig for a wincon, playing it on myself when Laboratory Maniac is in play and I know what's on the bottom, or playing it on an opponent after having Banishing Stroked something. Especially looking forward to the last option, off course.
Planning on putting my list together partly based on OP in the upcoming week or two and very much excited to start playing it!
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A hobby is by defenition something you're not any good at - otherwise it'd have been your work. Magic is my biggest hobby so I mustn't be very good at it.
Just got back from a Battlebond event where my teammate and I played Bonus Round 4 times in 3 games, and it was unreasonably fun. It was when I redrew the Bonus Round after shuffling it back in with Game Plan that I appreciated that it isn't just a neat spell copying variant, but rather a global Pyromancer's Ascension, and 1 that works in edh.
I don't know if it'll be as silly without the teamwork nonsense of 2 headed giant, but I'm certainly gonna try.
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
Have you considered Sun Titan? I am pretty sure that with Infinite Reflection out you can chain together all the 3 cost or less creatures in your graveyard (also artifacts and enchantments if you have March of the Machines or Opalescence out) since as they enter the become Sun Titan and can then grab another card. Plus it's good regardless, just a thought.
Have you considered Sun Titan? I am pretty sure that with Infinite Reflection out you can chain together all the 3 cost or less creatures in your graveyard (also artifacts and enchantments if you have March of the Machines or Opalescence out) since as they enter the become Sun Titan and can then grab another card. Plus it's good regardless, just a thought.
Rest in Peace halts this, but it halts a lot of things. March of the machines kills moxen and sickens artifacts, mind's desire whiffs on free spells... You can't play a million interactions without whiffing a couple times.
That being said, if this deck could push the graveyard, Sun Titan would be sweet.
Edit: To clarify, Rest in Peace isn't the reason Sun Titan wouldn't combo off like that. I just don't fill my graveyard that fast. If, on the other hand, you are playing Tunnel Vision like recently suggested, that sounds pretty neat.
Finally put Zedruu to the test yesterday and had a blast. Was able to hand someone a Statecraft when he alpha striked with eighteen 12/12 saproling tokens, then copied it with Clever Impersonator and gave it to a second player too once he got out of hand. Unfortunately wasn't able to win the game - a Notion Thief on the other side of the table brought my carddraw to a halt and gave the Lazav player a win eventually.
Great game though, really liked this.
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A hobby is by defenition something you're not any good at - otherwise it'd have been your work. Magic is my biggest hobby so I mustn't be very good at it.
For another weird wincon, I'm going to test Tunnel Vision, either playing it on myself to dig for a wincon, playing it on myself when Laboratory Maniac is in play and I know what's on the bottom, or playing it on an opponent after having Banishing Stroked something. Especially looking forward to the last option, off course.
Planning on putting my list together partly based on OP in the upcoming week or two and very much excited to start playing it!
Oh wow, I didn't even realize that. One of those is probably going to replace Spin into Myth. Also considering Proteus Staff for the same reason.
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A hobby is by defenition something you're not any good at - otherwise it'd have been your work. Magic is my biggest hobby so I mustn't be very good at it.
I begin to understand some of your recent changes. The Locust God becomes sortof an Easy Button when I have card draw going. The other day I used that again for the win (with Jeskai Ascendancy and a couple artifacts this time to make them bigger), though I probably had 1 or 2 combos in hand already.
I'm working on a faster no budget version of your build, I've played a lot of commander and I really agree with a lot of your philosophy. Commander should be fun, degenerate casual is boring at best and adolescent power fantasy at worst.
I haven't gotten to play this build yet as I am still waiting on some cards... So I have a lot of tuning to do still. What do you think?
Cuts:
*Karoos got to go, I feel like they slow the deck down and I prefer a simple high basic + duals manabase is ideal for land tax, and for a deck that is very mana symbol hungry.
*Vanish into memory seems overcosted and there are no hydras in my meta
*Font of Mythos, also seems overcosted, at least howling mine and anvil are 5 mana to play/donate
*Precursor Golem is cool but it takes way too many deck slots for what it does
*Shimmer Myr -- Raff Capashen at 4 with evasion is more useful for the deck
*Sky Hussar -- I made the unbending tine swap because it's a cool mana rock and Hussar belongs in a draft deck
*Locust God -- Following the forum's suggestion to remove an easy button
*Teferi's Puzzle Box -- This was a hard cut, I think mindmoil is way better, and I don't think there is value in having this effect be redundant. I would like to add it back in for disruption, but right now knowledge pool and poss storm are doing that work
*Thought Reflection -- the devotion to blue is nice, but I didn't like the idea of drawing this in my opening hand and then staring at it for 7 turns while I slowly die. Might go in place of archive if rector works out okay.
*catch\\release -- I like threaten effects, but this went out with precursor golem
*nahiri's wrath -- If I am able to discard my hand I should be winning anyways, I think only 1 of these effects is needed and I like the awkwardness of firestorm more
*Temporal Mastery -- I think the miracle is really nice, but playing a 3UU time walk is a lot more useful for those situations where you want to take a quick extra turn to play out some cards.
Really not liking eye of the storm at all, not enough spells to trigger it.
I'm working on a faster no budget version of your build, I've played a lot of commander and I really agree with a lot of your philosophy. Commander should be fun, degenerate casual is boring at best and adolescent power fantasy at worst.
I haven't gotten to play this build yet as I am still waiting on some cards... So I have a lot of tuning to do still. What do you think?
Cuts:
*Karoos got to go, I feel like they slow the deck down and I prefer a simple high basic + duals manabase is ideal for land tax, and for a deck that is very mana symbol hungry.
*Vanish into memory seems overcosted and there are no hydras in my meta
*Font of Mythos, also seems overcosted, at least howling mine and anvil are 5 mana to play/donate
*Precursor Golem is cool but it takes way too many deck slots for what it does
*Shimmer Myr -- Raff Capashen at 4 with evasion is more useful for the deck
*Sky Hussar -- I made the unbending tine swap because it's a cool mana rock and Hussar belongs in a draft deck
*Locust God -- Following the forum's suggestion to remove an easy button
*Teferi's Puzzle Box -- This was a hard cut, I think mindmoil is way better, and I don't think there is value in having this effect be redundant. I would like to add it back in for disruption, but right now knowledge pool and poss storm are doing that work
*Thought Reflection -- the devotion to blue is nice, but I didn't like the idea of drawing this in my opening hand and then staring at it for 7 turns while I slowly die. Might go in place of archive if rector works out okay.
*catch\\release -- I like threaten effects, but this went out with precursor golem
*nahiri's wrath -- If I am able to discard my hand I should be winning anyways, I think only 1 of these effects is needed and I like the awkwardness of firestorm more
*Temporal Mastery -- I think the miracle is really nice, but playing a 3UU time walk is a lot more useful for those situations where you want to take a quick extra turn to play out some cards.
Really not liking eye of the storm at all, not enough spells to trigger it.
I had to dig apart my deck to figure out where all the differences are. I kept looking for what aspect of the deck was lost and not finding much missing and feeling jealous you found so much space. A lot of it is because I've tried to wedge in even more nonsense, but that's on me, it looks pretty good.
Starting on the things you added:
Brainstorm is a good card, and you have the shuffling to use it like a legacy deck. Sol Ring is a great turn 1 Howling Mine for anyone not protesting its existence. Talisman of Progress is signet #4. Those are all completely sensible.
Mana Drain as the single counterspell is interesting. I've advocated to people in the past that in multiplayer, you should have something like 0, 1, 5, or infinite counterspells: 0 says don't worry, 1 says I'm unlikely to counter but respect my mana, 5 says I just need you to not win for a turn, and infinity is if you actually want to control the game. I play Zedruu as 0 counterspells as sort of a broad deck concept, but playing 1 just to keep people honest is probably certainly correct, and Mana Drain presents the opportunity for Turnabout-esque big mana turns.
Shimmer Myr for Raff Capashen I've done myself as well. He is much more difficult to cast, but I'm trying to use more legends now, and you've already got 6 more things that gain flash, and faster mana to play it with.
The Locust God isn't just gone for being an easy button. It's also pretty darn undesirable a lot of the time. I know it's weird for me to complain about a dead card in my deck of do nothings, but The Locust God's floor is less doing nothing and more drawing out board wipes, and I didn't enjoy holding it in hand out of fear it's too good to ever last a round.
Teferi's Puzzle Box is also on my sidelines right now, competing with Forced Fruition to sneak back into the deck sometime.
I love my bounce lands and wouldn't cut them ever, but I also am perfectly content to just be slow sometimes, and you said yourself you wanted faster, so you got it.
You've already said exactly what I was going to say about Archive vs Thought Reflection. Academy Rector into double draw is a nice option.
I love Font of Mythos. You can certainly cut it if you want, it's got a big downside in its tendency to give your opponents cards and then eat a Naturalize, but I'd almost argue it's insane how efficient it is. Games with Font of Mythos are usually the games I don't need to play Zedruu, the draw power is that profound. You're right to say that Howling Mine and donating it is as much draw for only 1 more mana, but there is a danger in counting on Zedruu to stay on the field, and Font is a good hedge on that.
Vanish Into Memory and particularly Precurosr Golem are here because I personally adore those two cards. Vanish is always a thought of things to cut just for never being a combo piece, but I still play it just cause I like it. No qualms there. And no argument against cutting the Golem, but...
I'm curious about the performance of some of the other cards you have without Precursor Golem in. Precursor lets Goblin Welder slowly dig back all your artifacts, and does silly things with Stolen Identity. I'm sure they're fine, but if I was cutting cards because I cut Precursor, I would go to Stolen Identity before Catch // Release. Then again, I also use Catch a lot with my bouncelands to mess with people, so you've pulled out multiples of the synergies there. That might be right. I'd just be looking at Stolen Identity as a somewhat questionable 6 mana card at this point, and if you do cut Eye of the Storm, I'd call that the final straw. For the record on Eye of the Storm, for a while now I've been playing ~15 instant/sorceries on the theory that a draw 7 will draw me on average 1 more spell to trigger Eye with. I'm aware that means going off is sort of a coin flip by that math.
I think the only change I'd really argue strongly against is Temporal Manipulation. Since the singular method of recurring the extra turn is Mirror of Fate, the exile is sort of a bonus, especially if you can put yourself in the position to set up Mirror of Fate with Goblin Welder and need a couple cycles to pull out Rest in Peace. And there certainly are times where Temporal Mastery doesn't cost 7, especially if you combo, and especially with brainstorm. Temporal Trespass can also be a cheaper than 7 extra turn with possible Mirror of Fate upside. I just can't not try to maximize Mirror of Fate opportunities. Your reason to switch is a valid argument, but that self-exile is a golden calf to me.
And the last thing I'd comment on is Land Tax. Most of my time with Land Tax, I was also playing Seismic Assault, Mind Over Matter, and Teferi's Puzzle Box. You've still got Mindmoil and the couple looting effects, but you're very close to actually just using Land Tax as intended. I'm not suggesting that card has ever needed to be better than face value, but if you do make further cuts, I'd consider things that maximize the value of just having a big hand of cards.
To end back on how I started, I hope this works for you. You've managed to sneak some gas into this deck without losing many of the possible lines of nonsense. You're probably not just faster but more consistent than me with the added mana sources (don't judge me too hard on the games you stumble and think "this is more consistent? Dear God..."). Good luck and have fun!
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
Thanks for the feedback, I am working on revisions to incorporate your feedback, especially the Temporal Manipulation/Mastey change. I just let my fear of willbender/ricochet blind me to the objectively correct card for the deck.
I agree welder could go, I thought he would be good to toggle knowledge pool and enable mirror of fate, but it might be fun to pop in mother of runes for the jeskai ascendency synergy instead Gilded Drake would be nice too... or free up the slot for another flavor of jank.
I wanted the Font back in, it didn't feel right to not having both feet in symmetrical draw land. Dack's Duplicant was very quickly nixed from the deck -- maybe if there were more tap abilities I wanted to copy It'd be in.
I am trying to mash that precursor package back in, It's always in the back of my mind as I flick through the cards and start fantasizing about having a magical precursor christmas play to make. Rite of Replication was my introduction to "big edh plays" so I like the idea of paying tribute with some janky precursor stolen identity play.
Current build:
+Font of Mythos
+Temporal Mastery
+Thought Reflection
-Alhammarrett's Archive
-Dack's Duplicant
-Temporal Manipulation
Thanks for the feedback, I am working on revisions to incorporate your feedback, especially the Temporal Manipulation/Mastey change. I just let my fear of willbender/ricochet blind me to the objectively correct card for the deck.
I agree welder could go, I thought he would be good to toggle knowledge pool and enable mirror of fate, but it might be fun to pop in mother of runes for the jeskai ascendency synergy instead Gilded Drake would be nice too... or free up the slot for another flavor of jank.
I wanted the Font back in, it didn't feel right to not having both feet in symmetrical draw land. Dack's Duplicant was very quickly nixed from the deck -- maybe if there were more tap abilities I wanted to copy It'd be in.
I am trying to mash that precursor package back in, It's always in the back of my mind as I flick through the cards and start fantasizing about having a magical precursor christmas play to make. Rite of Replication was my introduction to "big edh plays" so I like the idea of paying tribute with some janky precursor stolen identity play.
Current build:
+Font of Mythos
+Temporal Mastery
+Thought Reflection
-Alhammarrett's Archive
-Dack's Duplicant
-Temporal Manipulation
The urge to shove more packages in working to my detriment at the moment. I've wanted for a while to pick a strategy to throw out, but they're so intertwined its hard to cut more than a card when I have a half dozen waiting their turn to sneak in.
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
Thanks for the feedback, I am working on revisions to incorporate your feedback, especially the Temporal Manipulation/Mastey change. I just let my fear of willbender/ricochet blind me to the objectively correct card for the deck.
I agree welder could go, I thought he would be good to toggle knowledge pool and enable mirror of fate, but it might be fun to pop in mother of runes for the jeskai ascendency synergy instead Gilded Drake would be nice too... or free up the slot for another flavor of jank.
I wanted the Font back in, it didn't feel right to not having both feet in symmetrical draw land. Dack's Duplicant was very quickly nixed from the deck -- maybe if there were more tap abilities I wanted to copy It'd be in.
I am trying to mash that precursor package back in, It's always in the back of my mind as I flick through the cards and start fantasizing about having a magical precursor christmas play to make. Rite of Replication was my introduction to "big edh plays" so I like the idea of paying tribute with some janky precursor stolen identity play.
Current build:
+Font of Mythos
+Temporal Mastery
+Thought Reflection
-Alhammarrett's Archive
-Dack's Duplicant
-Temporal Manipulation
The urge to shove more packages in working to my detriment at the moment. I've wanted for a while to pick a strategy to throw out, but they're so intertwined its hard to cut more than a card when I have a half dozen waiting their turn to sneak in.
You've already made some very brave cuts, like dream halls
I think with continued tuning and iterating the deck could be broken out into customizable "packages" of cards that players could rotate in and out neatly.
I feel the same way about Goblin welder that you do about precursor. I have a lot of swords and blightsteel colussus in my meta, so being able to welder an attacker into a pentad prism is really amusing to me. I want to reincorporate precursor to better support my favorite goblin. Welder loves jeskai ascendency, which loves spells, which love precursor golem, which love feeding welder! It's the circle of jank!
I can already see myself mashing in more janky welder support cards like Liquimetal Coating (now phyrexian metamorph is a copy enchantment too!).
I could see capricious efreet coming out to make room for spells that would support noyan dar, precursor golem, and eye of the storm better. It's not an amazing use of 6 mana without cowardice in play. Cowardice absolutely has to stay though that card is one of the pillars of this deck.
I think vedalken orrery may be cuttable as well. For as much draw that the deck has, having this much redundant flash might be a bit of a crutch.
The last one I have my eye on is Infinite Reflection... it's kind of challenging to get into play, and I've wrecked myself by possibility storming it out on accident once, I haven't made the cut yet because torpor orb isn't playable in this deck and like 50% of all commander players are playing the same stupid etb+blink deck.
Thanks for the feedback, I am working on revisions to incorporate your feedback, especially the Temporal Manipulation/Mastey change. I just let my fear of willbender/ricochet blind me to the objectively correct card for the deck.
I agree welder could go, I thought he would be good to toggle knowledge pool and enable mirror of fate, but it might be fun to pop in mother of runes for the jeskai ascendency synergy instead Gilded Drake would be nice too... or free up the slot for another flavor of jank.
I wanted the Font back in, it didn't feel right to not having both feet in symmetrical draw land. Dack's Duplicant was very quickly nixed from the deck -- maybe if there were more tap abilities I wanted to copy It'd be in.
I am trying to mash that precursor package back in, It's always in the back of my mind as I flick through the cards and start fantasizing about having a magical precursor christmas play to make. Rite of Replication was my introduction to "big edh plays" so I like the idea of paying tribute with some janky precursor stolen identity play.
Current build:
+Font of Mythos
+Temporal Mastery
+Thought Reflection
-Alhammarrett's Archive
-Dack's Duplicant
-Temporal Manipulation
The urge to shove more packages in working to my detriment at the moment. I've wanted for a while to pick a strategy to throw out, but they're so intertwined its hard to cut more than a card when I have a half dozen waiting their turn to sneak in.
You've already made some very brave cuts, like dream halls
I think with continued tuning and iterating the deck could be broken out into customizable "packages" of cards that players could rotate in and out neatly.
Hoping to do anything neatly is... well, hopeful. Lol. When I look through this deck, I typically make neat little 4 card combo piles, but that doesn't mean I can pull whole piles.
For example, Goblin Welder isn't a card I cherish, And theoretically, cutting it takes Metamorph and Unbender Tine out of the combo pile, but I still really love those cards. I've just about convinced myself to cut Morphy cause that puts me Beck down to 4 clone effects and I can use that card elsewhere easily, but that's a tough cut.
And 3 flash cards might be a lot, but they're all different. Leyline is free, raff has flash, orrery let's you stretch raff out to everything having flash.
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
I played a fun game the other day. Started off with the good old Chrome Mox into Howling Mine. Instant speed board wiped with Firestorm. Instant speed board wiped with Arcbond (trying out fun nonsense with this one, primarily to get wonky with Precursor Golem or Bonus Round). Took my time for a few turns just keeping people in line, then drew said Bonus Round into Time Spiral into Venser, the Sojourner and Temporal Mastery. Unfortunately didn't manage to combo in the 2 extra turns because I discarded Cowardice to hand size at some point, but since my opponents spent their last effort not letting my Venser emblem, I was in the clear to drop Infinite Reflection on Warstorm Surge to close out the game. For style points, the "creature" I cast last to kill the table was Barren Glory.
Arcbond was cause I wanted another novel sweeper, and it lets be attempt to actually use Precursor's copy trigger for infinite if I also have spells for indestructible and lifelink.
I'm also really determined with Raff Capashen, Ship's Mage being printed to get a legend of each color pair in the deck, so sometime soon I'll make the call on who gets those roles. Adding a boros legend to this deck is super forced, but that just makes me want it more!
So currently, my deck is sprawled out on the table. 34 cards are land, 32 cards are stacked nicely into distinct combo piles, and the other 33 are the mana rocks, draw emgines, and interaction that let the deck be functional. Lands and combos aren't on the table for cuts currently, and I feel pretty strongly committed to 31 of the 33 remaining. The short list of cards currently on the sidelines competing for the last 2 slots:
I know I haven't given context of exactly what else I'm playing around these cards, but some of those slots are fixed in their role but flexible enough to work around these last 2, I'm curious about people's takes on any or all of these cards.
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
Glad you are trying out Arcbond. No joke, I put it in just about any deck sporting red. The amount of flexibility it provides is awesome. Board wipe, game-winning (or, in one instance, game-drawing) card, can do silly stuff if your creature has lifelink. Lots of potential.
Story
I know I haven't given context of exactly what else I'm playing around these cards, but some of those slots are fixed in their role but flexible enough to work around these last 2, I'm curious about people's takes on any or all of these cards.
Anvil of Bogardan - strictly better than howling mine; however other players can theoretically do more with the discards than you can, I don't really care about their reanimator tricks if im already feeding them free cards anyways.
Mirage Mirror -- never played it, seems worse than sakashima and metamorph
Nahiri, the Harbinger -- I want to cut this card as well, I was thinking of playing one of the Chandras or baby jace in her place. I'm not blown away by teferi enough to try him.
Teferi's Puzzle Box -- good card but mindmoil exists. I'm currently playing it because I like Land Tax
Swans of Bryn Argoll -- good card, but they are lacking in an important "x-factor" for cards in this deck: surprise value. Swans are a well known quantity among magic players.
Dream Halls -- playing many games without dreamhalls really illuminates that they are kind of a win more card; however having dream halls in the deck makes your turns shorter.
Alhammarret's Archive -- I actually think the life gain and low mana cost are so relevant for this deck which seems completely defenseless for so many early turns when I play it that I'll probably be slotting archive back in over thought reflection despite playing academy rector
Anvil of Bogardan - strictly better than howling mine; however other players can theoretically do more with the discards than you can, I don't really care about their reanimator tricks if im already feeding them free cards anyways.
Mirage Mirror -- never played it, seems worse than sakashima and metamorph
Swans of Bryn Argoll -- good card, but they are lacking in an important "x-factor" for cards in this deck: surprise value. Swans are a well known quantity among magic players.
Though maybe in the end, I only get 1 of all these cards cause I'm heavily considering making the jump from no counterspells to one counterspells. For some reason, no matter how many times I tell them I can't counter their things, the table keeps looking at me to see if their spells resolve, so I'm not feeling the benefits of excluding Captain Boomerang
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
Not really on your level on playing this deck yet, but it's one of few decks I've come to instantly like (props!) so I'd really love to join the discussion and learn more about the way to play it. One thing to note is: I really don't want to go the infinite way: my playgroup hates that, and I probably do so most of all :). What I do like for my build is janky win cons. I'm still working on a way to use Approach of the Second Sun reliantly, and pulled my first win of of the Hive Mind / Pact of the Titan vs a mono white deck last week. That felt good.
On topic: I actually cut Anvil of Bogardan myself because it lets everybody else skip their discard phase as well. This way, I should be the one able to keep my hands with more than seven cards, while everybody else is flooded with cards and has to discard a lot. I do combine this with some extra graveyard hate. This suits my meta because there are some quite graveyard-heavy decks anyway.
Am I overlooking something; is this bad reasoning?
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A hobby is by defenition something you're not any good at - otherwise it'd have been your work. Magic is my biggest hobby so I mustn't be very good at it.
On topic: I actually cut Anvil of Bogardan myself because it lets everybody else skip their discard phase as well. This way, I should be the one able to keep my hands with more than seven cards, while everybody else is flooded with cards and has to discard a lot. I do combine this with some extra graveyard hate. This suits my meta because there are some quite graveyard-heavy decks anyway.
Am I overlooking something; is this bad reasoning?
The balance of draw and discard has some relation to your playgroup's styles of play, decks, and psychology, I think. Eliminating discard (mostly) has the potential to bottleneck graveyard decks that don't have a discard outlet by keeping in their hand almost all the things they want elsewhere. Probably more so for casual players than advanced players, but it also depends on psychology. I have one friend I play EDH with who is very, very casual. All it takes to hinder his progress is the card draw itself. He becomes hesitant and indecisive from all the possibilities and his lines of play become haphazard. That's sortof a small-scale example of the deck's paradigm: go crazier than your opponents are capable of handling. Overload their brains.
By the way, from the main list Rest in Peace is good graveyard hate, and Infinite Reflection is one possible tool against reanimation.
Helping your opponents "too much" is a concession you have to make to play this list. I've tested zedruu with no symmetrical draw effects a few times over the years because I think group hug effects make commander games too similar; but I think knowledge pool and possibility storm sow enough discord to offset that.
Not really on your level on playing this deck yet, but it's one of few decks I've come to instantly like (props!) so I'd really love to join the discussion and learn more about the way to play it. One thing to note is: I really don't want to go the infinite way: my playgroup hates that, and I probably do so most of all :). What I do like for my build is janky win cons. I'm still working on a way to use Approach of the Second Sun reliantly, and pulled my first win of of the Hive Mind / Pact of the Titan vs a mono white deck last week. That felt good.
On topic: I actually cut Anvil of Bogardan myself because it lets everybody else skip their discard phase as well. This way, I should be the one able to keep my hands with more than seven cards, while everybody else is flooded with cards and has to discard a lot. I do combine this with some extra graveyard hate. This suits my meta because there are some quite graveyard-heavy decks anyway.
Am I overlooking something; is this bad reasoning?
Realistically speaking, even with this pile of nonsensical junk, most of my wins are non-infinite. It might be a bunch of Warstorm Surges, or a bunch of Inferno Titans, or I pumped my creatures +20 and made them unblockable, or Barren Glory. And some days you just hold down the fort until the fort starts killing people. Chances are if you played exactly my list and just declined to go infinite, the average player wouldn't even notice that you could go infinite.
As far as Anvil giving no maximum hand sizes, I don't think that's much of a downside. If that's the draw engine of the game, people's hands aren't exploding with cards anyway. I think overall Anvil of Bargardan is roughly equal in value to Howling Mine but with the quality of life downside that explaining how many cards you draw a turn is twice the effort when reminding them to discard 1. And then you get the opponent who insists you should make them discard to Anvil before drawing from other mine effect for optimization but man it just matters so much less than the brainpower spent maintaining that sequencing, and that feels like reason enough to not like it.
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
Tnx for the answers. I might start running Anvil again in a while then, since I really, really like the card.
For now, I don't see myself jumping throught all the Barren Glory hoops, but might start working on that later. For now, my wincons are Laboratory Maniac, Hive Mind and the pacts, an occasional Illusions of Grandeur (yes, I'm running that: my meta tends to be a bit political, and I like to punish the player who's on top and teeming up with the rest of the table), Aetherflux Reservoir and Approach of the Second Sun (working on ways to make that one reliable).
I'll see if I can post my list anytime soon.
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A hobby is by defenition something you're not any good at - otherwise it'd have been your work. Magic is my biggest hobby so I mustn't be very good at it.
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Ended up using Zedruu's trigger, Alhammarret's Archive, The Locust God and a copy via Sakashima, then with 12 insect-creating triggers on the stack I used Mirrorweave on his Gray Merchant followed by flashing in Infinite Reflection on his Merchant then letting the triggers resolve.
What are you experimenting with these days?
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
Rotating things in the last few slots, trying to get comfortable with new cards. Raff is trying out Shimmer Myrs spot cause that seems like an easy trade. Howling Golem is both another golem to go with Precursor and a Howling Mine that you can Mirrorweave, so I have absolute intentions on making that do work, but that needs some more support, so that's an ongoing project. Locust God came out at some point, and I wanted to sneak Swans back in, so that has me testing out various burn based wrath effects. I gave Precognition Field a spin and enjoyed it, but as much as I may justify it as an infinite mana outlet or Mirror of Fate synergy, I probably only enjoy it so much because I like peeking at the top of my deck.
Mostly I've just got gotta play this deck more, because I took a brief hiatus from magic after moving recently, and got a bit out of practice playing the world's most needlessly complicated deck.
Planning on putting my list together partly based on OP in the upcoming week or two and very much excited to start playing it!
I don't know if it'll be as silly without the teamwork nonsense of 2 headed giant, but I'm certainly gonna try.
Edit: just realized Rest in Peace kinda halts this
Rest in Peace halts this, but it halts a lot of things. March of the machines kills moxen and sickens artifacts, mind's desire whiffs on free spells... You can't play a million interactions without whiffing a couple times.
That being said, if this deck could push the graveyard, Sun Titan would be sweet.
Edit: To clarify, Rest in Peace isn't the reason Sun Titan wouldn't combo off like that. I just don't fill my graveyard that fast. If, on the other hand, you are playing Tunnel Vision like recently suggested, that sounds pretty neat.
Great game though, really liked this.
Hinder and Spell Crumple also interact favorably with Tunnel Vision.
RBGLiving EndRBG
EDH
UFblthpU
BRXantchaRB
BGVarolzGB
URWZedruuWRU
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
I haven't gotten to play this build yet as I am still waiting on some cards... So I have a lot of tuning to do still. What do you think?
1 Zedruu the Greathearted
Creature
1 Dack's Duplicate
1 Academy Rector
1 Vedalken Plotter
1 Goblin Welder
1 Kami of the Crescent Moon
1 Sakashima the Impostor
1 Raff Capashen, Ship's Mage
1 Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper
1 Capricious Efreet
1 Inferno Titan
Enchantment
1 Opalescence
1 Cowardice
1 Eye of the Storm
1 Mindmoil
1 Barren Glory
1 March of the Machines
1 Leyline of Anticipation
1 Dissipation Field
1 Detention Sphere
1 Possibility Storm
1 Jeskai Ascendancy
1 Infinite Reflection
1 Dictate of Kruphix
1 Warstorm Surge
1 Cathars' Crusade
1 Rest in Peace
1 Land Tax
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Steam Vents
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Prairie Stream
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Flooded Strand
1 Mystic Gate
1 Arid Mesa
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Command Tower
1 Plateau
1 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1 Cascade Bluffs
4 Plains
11 Island
5 Mountain
1 Reliquary Tower
Artifact
1 Anvil of Bogardan
1 Talisman of Progress
1 Mirror of Fate
1 Pentad Prism
1 Unbender Tine
1 Mox Diamond
1 Knowledge Pool
1 Vedalken Orrery
1 Alhammarret's Archive
1 Chrome Mox
1 Izzet Signet
1 Howling Mine
1 Temple Bell
1 Thought Vessel
1 Sol Ring
1 Strionic Resonator
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Walking Archive
1 Memnite
1 Crystalline Crawler
1 Firestorm
1 Shifting Borders
1 Leave // Chance
1 Turnabout
1 Mirrorweave
1 Mana Drain
1 Brainstorm
Sorcery
1 Political Trickery
1 Time Spiral
1 Temporal Cascade
1 Stolen Identity
1 Mind's Desire
1 Temporal Manipulation
Planeswalker
1 Venser, the Sojourner
1 Nahiri, the Harbinger
Cuts:
*Karoos got to go, I feel like they slow the deck down and I prefer a simple high basic + duals manabase is ideal for land tax, and for a deck that is very mana symbol hungry.
*Vanish into memory seems overcosted and there are no hydras in my meta
*Font of Mythos, also seems overcosted, at least howling mine and anvil are 5 mana to play/donate
*Precursor Golem is cool but it takes way too many deck slots for what it does
*Shimmer Myr -- Raff Capashen at 4 with evasion is more useful for the deck
*Sky Hussar -- I made the unbending tine swap because it's a cool mana rock and Hussar belongs in a draft deck
*Locust God -- Following the forum's suggestion to remove an easy button
*Teferi's Puzzle Box -- This was a hard cut, I think mindmoil is way better, and I don't think there is value in having this effect be redundant. I would like to add it back in for disruption, but right now knowledge pool and poss storm are doing that work
*Thought Reflection -- the devotion to blue is nice, but I didn't like the idea of drawing this in my opening hand and then staring at it for 7 turns while I slowly die. Might go in place of archive if rector works out okay.
*catch\\release -- I like threaten effects, but this went out with precursor golem
*nahiri's wrath -- If I am able to discard my hand I should be winning anyways, I think only 1 of these effects is needed and I like the awkwardness of firestorm more
*Temporal Mastery -- I think the miracle is really nice, but playing a 3UU time walk is a lot more useful for those situations where you want to take a quick extra turn to play out some cards.
Really not liking eye of the storm at all, not enough spells to trigger it.
I had to dig apart my deck to figure out where all the differences are. I kept looking for what aspect of the deck was lost and not finding much missing and feeling jealous you found so much space. A lot of it is because I've tried to wedge in even more nonsense, but that's on me, it looks pretty good.
Starting on the things you added:
Brainstorm is a good card, and you have the shuffling to use it like a legacy deck. Sol Ring is a great turn 1 Howling Mine for anyone not protesting its existence. Talisman of Progress is signet #4. Those are all completely sensible.
Mana Drain as the single counterspell is interesting. I've advocated to people in the past that in multiplayer, you should have something like 0, 1, 5, or infinite counterspells: 0 says don't worry, 1 says I'm unlikely to counter but respect my mana, 5 says I just need you to not win for a turn, and infinity is if you actually want to control the game. I play Zedruu as 0 counterspells as sort of a broad deck concept, but playing 1 just to keep people honest is probably certainly correct, and Mana Drain presents the opportunity for Turnabout-esque big mana turns.
Shimmer Myr for Raff Capashen I've done myself as well. He is much more difficult to cast, but I'm trying to use more legends now, and you've already got 6 more things that gain flash, and faster mana to play it with.
The Locust God isn't just gone for being an easy button. It's also pretty darn undesirable a lot of the time. I know it's weird for me to complain about a dead card in my deck of do nothings, but The Locust God's floor is less doing nothing and more drawing out board wipes, and I didn't enjoy holding it in hand out of fear it's too good to ever last a round.
Teferi's Puzzle Box is also on my sidelines right now, competing with Forced Fruition to sneak back into the deck sometime.
I love my bounce lands and wouldn't cut them ever, but I also am perfectly content to just be slow sometimes, and you said yourself you wanted faster, so you got it.
You've already said exactly what I was going to say about Archive vs Thought Reflection. Academy Rector into double draw is a nice option.
I love Font of Mythos. You can certainly cut it if you want, it's got a big downside in its tendency to give your opponents cards and then eat a Naturalize, but I'd almost argue it's insane how efficient it is. Games with Font of Mythos are usually the games I don't need to play Zedruu, the draw power is that profound. You're right to say that Howling Mine and donating it is as much draw for only 1 more mana, but there is a danger in counting on Zedruu to stay on the field, and Font is a good hedge on that.
Vanish Into Memory and particularly Precurosr Golem are here because I personally adore those two cards. Vanish is always a thought of things to cut just for never being a combo piece, but I still play it just cause I like it. No qualms there. And no argument against cutting the Golem, but...
I'm curious about the performance of some of the other cards you have without Precursor Golem in. Precursor lets Goblin Welder slowly dig back all your artifacts, and does silly things with Stolen Identity. I'm sure they're fine, but if I was cutting cards because I cut Precursor, I would go to Stolen Identity before Catch // Release. Then again, I also use Catch a lot with my bouncelands to mess with people, so you've pulled out multiples of the synergies there. That might be right. I'd just be looking at Stolen Identity as a somewhat questionable 6 mana card at this point, and if you do cut Eye of the Storm, I'd call that the final straw. For the record on Eye of the Storm, for a while now I've been playing ~15 instant/sorceries on the theory that a draw 7 will draw me on average 1 more spell to trigger Eye with. I'm aware that means going off is sort of a coin flip by that math.
I think the only change I'd really argue strongly against is Temporal Manipulation. Since the singular method of recurring the extra turn is Mirror of Fate, the exile is sort of a bonus, especially if you can put yourself in the position to set up Mirror of Fate with Goblin Welder and need a couple cycles to pull out Rest in Peace. And there certainly are times where Temporal Mastery doesn't cost 7, especially if you combo, and especially with brainstorm. Temporal Trespass can also be a cheaper than 7 extra turn with possible Mirror of Fate upside. I just can't not try to maximize Mirror of Fate opportunities. Your reason to switch is a valid argument, but that self-exile is a golden calf to me.
And the last thing I'd comment on is Land Tax. Most of my time with Land Tax, I was also playing Seismic Assault, Mind Over Matter, and Teferi's Puzzle Box. You've still got Mindmoil and the couple looting effects, but you're very close to actually just using Land Tax as intended. I'm not suggesting that card has ever needed to be better than face value, but if you do make further cuts, I'd consider things that maximize the value of just having a big hand of cards.
To end back on how I started, I hope this works for you. You've managed to sneak some gas into this deck without losing many of the possible lines of nonsense. You're probably not just faster but more consistent than me with the added mana sources (don't judge me too hard on the games you stumble and think "this is more consistent? Dear God..."). Good luck and have fun!
I agree welder could go, I thought he would be good to toggle knowledge pool and enable mirror of fate, but it might be fun to pop in mother of runes for the jeskai ascendency synergy instead Gilded Drake would be nice too... or free up the slot for another flavor of jank.
I wanted the Font back in, it didn't feel right to not having both feet in symmetrical draw land. Dack's Duplicant was very quickly nixed from the deck -- maybe if there were more tap abilities I wanted to copy It'd be in.
I am trying to mash that precursor package back in, It's always in the back of my mind as I flick through the cards and start fantasizing about having a magical precursor christmas play to make. Rite of Replication was my introduction to "big edh plays" so I like the idea of paying tribute with some janky precursor stolen identity play.
Current build:
+Font of Mythos
+Temporal Mastery
+Thought Reflection
-Alhammarrett's Archive
-Dack's Duplicant
-Temporal Manipulation
Beta Testing
+Precursor Golem
+Catch//Release
-Academy Rector
-Land Tax
The urge to shove more packages in working to my detriment at the moment. I've wanted for a while to pick a strategy to throw out, but they're so intertwined its hard to cut more than a card when I have a half dozen waiting their turn to sneak in.
You've already made some very brave cuts, like dream halls
I think with continued tuning and iterating the deck could be broken out into customizable "packages" of cards that players could rotate in and out neatly.
I feel the same way about Goblin welder that you do about precursor. I have a lot of swords and blightsteel colussus in my meta, so being able to welder an attacker into a pentad prism is really amusing to me. I want to reincorporate precursor to better support my favorite goblin. Welder loves jeskai ascendency, which loves spells, which love precursor golem, which love feeding welder! It's the circle of jank!
I can already see myself mashing in more janky welder support cards like Liquimetal Coating (now phyrexian metamorph is a copy enchantment too!).
I could see capricious efreet coming out to make room for spells that would support noyan dar, precursor golem, and eye of the storm better. It's not an amazing use of 6 mana without cowardice in play. Cowardice absolutely has to stay though that card is one of the pillars of this deck.
I think vedalken orrery may be cuttable as well. For as much draw that the deck has, having this much redundant flash might be a bit of a crutch.
The last one I have my eye on is Infinite Reflection... it's kind of challenging to get into play, and I've wrecked myself by possibility storming it out on accident once, I haven't made the cut yet because torpor orb isn't playable in this deck and like 50% of all commander players are playing the same stupid etb+blink deck.
Hoping to do anything neatly is... well, hopeful. Lol. When I look through this deck, I typically make neat little 4 card combo piles, but that doesn't mean I can pull whole piles.
For example, Goblin Welder isn't a card I cherish, And theoretically, cutting it takes Metamorph and Unbender Tine out of the combo pile, but I still really love those cards. I've just about convinced myself to cut Morphy cause that puts me Beck down to 4 clone effects and I can use that card elsewhere easily, but that's a tough cut.
And 3 flash cards might be a lot, but they're all different. Leyline is free, raff has flash, orrery let's you stretch raff out to everything having flash.
I played a fun game the other day. Started off with the good old Chrome Mox into Howling Mine. Instant speed board wiped with Firestorm. Instant speed board wiped with Arcbond (trying out fun nonsense with this one, primarily to get wonky with Precursor Golem or Bonus Round). Took my time for a few turns just keeping people in line, then drew said Bonus Round into Time Spiral into Venser, the Sojourner and Temporal Mastery. Unfortunately didn't manage to combo in the 2 extra turns because I discarded Cowardice to hand size at some point, but since my opponents spent their last effort not letting my Venser emblem, I was in the clear to drop Infinite Reflection on Warstorm Surge to close out the game. For style points, the "creature" I cast last to kill the table was Barren Glory.
Arcbond was cause I wanted another novel sweeper, and it lets be attempt to actually use Precursor's copy trigger for infinite if I also have spells for indestructible and lifelink.
I'm also really determined with Raff Capashen, Ship's Mage being printed to get a legend of each color pair in the deck, so sometime soon I'll make the call on who gets those roles. Adding a boros legend to this deck is super forced, but that just makes me want it more!
So currently, my deck is sprawled out on the table. 34 cards are land, 32 cards are stacked nicely into distinct combo piles, and the other 33 are the mana rocks, draw emgines, and interaction that let the deck be functional. Lands and combos aren't on the table for cuts currently, and I feel pretty strongly committed to 31 of the 33 remaining. The short list of cards currently on the sidelines competing for the last 2 slots:
Anvil of Bogardan
Mirage Mirror
Nahiri, the Harbinger (I got a Teferi, Hero of Dominaria in for her, I might play 3 planeswalkers since they're all panic buttons)
Teferi's Puzzle Box
Phyrexian Metamorph
Swans of Bryn Argoll
Dream Halls
Alhammarret's Archive
Capricious Efreet
Forced Fruition
I know I haven't given context of exactly what else I'm playing around these cards, but some of those slots are fixed in their role but flexible enough to work around these last 2, I'm curious about people's takes on any or all of these cards.
Anvil of Bogardan - strictly better than howling mine; however other players can theoretically do more with the discards than you can, I don't really care about their reanimator tricks if im already feeding them free cards anyways.
Mirage Mirror -- never played it, seems worse than sakashima and metamorph
Nahiri, the Harbinger -- I want to cut this card as well, I was thinking of playing one of the Chandras or baby jace in her place. I'm not blown away by teferi enough to try him.
Teferi's Puzzle Box -- good card but mindmoil exists. I'm currently playing it because I like Land Tax
Phyrexian Metamorph -- the best clone in all of magic
Swans of Bryn Argoll -- good card, but they are lacking in an important "x-factor" for cards in this deck: surprise value. Swans are a well known quantity among magic players.
Dream Halls -- playing many games without dreamhalls really illuminates that they are kind of a win more card; however having dream halls in the deck makes your turns shorter.
Alhammarret's Archive -- I actually think the life gain and low mana cost are so relevant for this deck which seems completely defenseless for so many early turns when I play it that I'll probably be slotting archive back in over thought reflection despite playing academy rector
Phyrexian Metamorph is the better artifact clone, but Mirage Mirror is grosser with Knowledge Pool. At the same time, I don't think I've ever lost with 2 Knowledge Pools, whether or not the second one had cards in it. Either way, 1 of the 2 needs to make it or I can't clone Mirror of Fate without March of the Machines
I don't think Anvil is better than Howling Mine. There's definitely a cost in discarding cards, even if it drops as your hand gets bigger.
Swans of Bryn Argoll is a known quantity, but so are things like Jeskai Ascendancy and Time Spiral. I need the right amount of explosive draw to keep that quote in my signature accurate.
Though maybe in the end, I only get 1 of all these cards cause I'm heavily considering making the jump from no counterspells to one counterspells. For some reason, no matter how many times I tell them I can't counter their things, the table keeps looking at me to see if their spells resolve, so I'm not feeling the benefits of excluding Captain Boomerang
On topic: I actually cut Anvil of Bogardan myself because it lets everybody else skip their discard phase as well. This way, I should be the one able to keep my hands with more than seven cards, while everybody else is flooded with cards and has to discard a lot. I do combine this with some extra graveyard hate. This suits my meta because there are some quite graveyard-heavy decks anyway.
Am I overlooking something; is this bad reasoning?
The balance of draw and discard has some relation to your playgroup's styles of play, decks, and psychology, I think. Eliminating discard (mostly) has the potential to bottleneck graveyard decks that don't have a discard outlet by keeping in their hand almost all the things they want elsewhere. Probably more so for casual players than advanced players, but it also depends on psychology. I have one friend I play EDH with who is very, very casual. All it takes to hinder his progress is the card draw itself. He becomes hesitant and indecisive from all the possibilities and his lines of play become haphazard. That's sortof a small-scale example of the deck's paradigm: go crazier than your opponents are capable of handling. Overload their brains.
By the way, from the main list Rest in Peace is good graveyard hate, and Infinite Reflection is one possible tool against reanimation.
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
And here I thought we were overloading our own brains.
Realistically speaking, even with this pile of nonsensical junk, most of my wins are non-infinite. It might be a bunch of Warstorm Surges, or a bunch of Inferno Titans, or I pumped my creatures +20 and made them unblockable, or Barren Glory. And some days you just hold down the fort until the fort starts killing people. Chances are if you played exactly my list and just declined to go infinite, the average player wouldn't even notice that you could go infinite.
As far as Anvil giving no maximum hand sizes, I don't think that's much of a downside. If that's the draw engine of the game, people's hands aren't exploding with cards anyway. I think overall Anvil of Bargardan is roughly equal in value to Howling Mine but with the quality of life downside that explaining how many cards you draw a turn is twice the effort when reminding them to discard 1. And then you get the opponent who insists you should make them discard to Anvil before drawing from other mine effect for optimization but man it just matters so much less than the brainpower spent maintaining that sequencing, and that feels like reason enough to not like it.
For now, I don't see myself jumping throught all the Barren Glory hoops, but might start working on that later. For now, my wincons are Laboratory Maniac, Hive Mind and the pacts, an occasional Illusions of Grandeur (yes, I'm running that: my meta tends to be a bit political, and I like to punish the player who's on top and teeming up with the rest of the table), Aetherflux Reservoir and Approach of the Second Sun (working on ways to make that one reliable).
I'll see if I can post my list anytime soon.