Thank you for the immediate and really well thought out reply!
Unfortunately, I only very rarely get to actually play magic, so this list is all theorycrafted and unplayed at the moment - hence a lot of the questions around playability issues that could be resolved with a little bit of experience (numbers of lands and whatnot).
I think your commentary is mostly spot on, and I'm going to incorporate a lot of your suggested changes.
Beacon of immortality - I had it included for its synergy with wild research and the possibility of looping for double life every turn. It is a big splashy effect, and one that is great with eye of the storm as well, but given its complete lack of synergy with the entire rest of the deck, I think it's a safe cut.
Dictate of kruphix and sylvan library - great catch on the draw step clause. I forgot to check this one, and I think that it's a good cut given my 3 (!!!) cards that skip the draw step. I had checked most of the cards for this interaction, but not these two, and I think they are good cuts. If I want a replacement for them, I could use mystic remora, rhystic study, mind's eye, etc...
unifying theory - this was a speculative inclusion as a possible group hug card draw, but if you say it costs too much then I believe you and I'll cut it for something better.
rites of flourishing - I am trying to keep my group hug cards limited to only providing cards to my opponents (and therefore triggering psychic possession), and not ever giving them extra mana to actually cast those cards with! I love the card, but I don't want to include it for that reason.
Enduring ideal win conditions - you're right that I might be low on actual wins. I have good defense/disruption in possibility storm and solitary confinement. I wanted to avoid the old dovescape, humility, meishin stuff, because I think P-storm is enough, plus it's more fun. and I like that it's not an actual lock without arcane laboratory - if someone P-storms into a disenchant, good for them, I'll let them back in the game at that point. opalescence + parallax wave are always available via enduring ideal if necessary to board wipe and attack with enchantments, but I think I might want one more win condition for enduring ideal. Maybe form of the dragon or dragon roost or vicious shadows or luminarch ascension or zendikar's roil or something.
I may put swans back in, with or without blasphemous act and/or pyrohemia. maybe even volcano hellion and stuffy doll and boros reckoner.
On the vein of combos you have that I cut, I may include the lifegain package too.
I may also include memory jar and/or teferi's puzzle box.
I like your thoughts on tidespout tyrant and I agree not really worth it based on the synergy with the deck, even though it is an objectively powerful and fun card on its own.
right now, I do have oblation and beast within as well as opalescence + firestorm/seismic assault to deal with my self mill problem if necessary, I'm not sure if I need more...I may include greater good and/or perilous forays and/or claws of gix as sac outlets - good with reins of power too!
I want to keep the artifact count low so that I can play fun cards like rebuild, and maybe energy flux, and to dodge vandalblast, and to maximize my use of wild research by using the right card types, and because it's cool to have no artifacts! I really want my artifact hate to work with my themes (be instants or enchantments) and be the most fun version possible. I think bouncing all artifacts or taxing them is more interesting than just blowing them up.
Thanks again for the reply. I love the deck, and I appreciate your great contributions to my take on it!
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Updates:
-dictate of kruphix
-sylvan library
-unifying theory
-beacon of immortality
-replenish
-commandeer
+mystic remora
+swans of bryn argoll
+form of the dragon
+pyrohemia
+leyline of anticipation
+starfield of nyx
New question - how bad is the 5 enchantment restriction on starfield of nyx? Is it ever active?
I am considering putting in holistic wisdom
or seasons past for some juicy graveyard recycling. Still looking for room for library of leng as well.
Updates:
-dictate of kruphix
-sylvan library
-unifying theory
-beacon of immortality
-replenish
-commandeer
+mystic remora
+swans of bryn argoll
+form of the dragon
+pyrohemia
+leyline of anticipation
+starfield of nyx
New question - how bad is the 5 enchantment restriction on starfield of nyx? Is it ever active?
I am considering putting in holistic wisdom
or seasons past for some juicy graveyard recycling. Still looking for room for library of leng as well.
The 5 enchantment restriction isn't bad at all in a deck with like 25 enchantments, especially with Enduring Ideal going. It's actually kind of neat to play with, as the opportunity to spot remove your own enchantment creature to turn off starfield and dodge a boardwipe is a thing that can happen. I'm actually pretty ok with it being that high a number since the biggest reason to make your things creatures is to attack with them and you sort of want a big swing then anyway. It is harder to use than Opalescence for doing things like kicking Rite of Replication on Fevered Visions, but it's literally 100% more effective at giving free Eye of the Storm on your upkeep. And never forget you can Mirrorweave an animated enchantment like a Thought Reflection to make all your things 7/7s and all your opponent's things non-creatures. I give Starfield a "really complicated to use optimally out of 10", but that's a positive in my mind. I cut mine because having two of that effect made it too consistent a game plan for my tastes, and without much graveyard synergy (and often the inability to even discard to hand size), Starfield was worse for me than Opalescence, but it definitely works.
My favorite graveyard recursion card in my big mana green deck is Praetor's Counsel, but that is a deck with like 7 mana doublers, so 8 mana is like a 2 drop by the time I need it.
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
I finally played my first game with the deck last night!
2 lands + bounceland --> knight of the reliquary fetching lotus vale
Mind over matter, discard all cards in hand but one to untap lotus vale and make 11 mana --> minds aglow both draw 14, (game is basically over at this point)
Noyan dar + jeskai ascendancy appear, lotus vale and bounceland become creatures, start running through all the cards in the deck, eye of the storm hits, some more spells happen, and I wind up winning with a cyclonic rift to clear the way for a handful of 10/10 lands and beast within tokens.
So much fun!!!
Even after my first game, I totally get what you're saying about Mind over matter being too powerful. After I played that enchantment, it felt like there was basically no restriction on what I could do, as long as I kept having ways to draw cards. I might try to replace it with telekinetic bonds and make sure I have enough discard outlets to keep it working.
I've got this rolling about in my head. It would do oh so very much, particularly with the artifacts I've been bouncing around as possibilities: Doubling Cube, Temple Bell, and Strionic Resonator. With Strionic Resonator and Gilded Lotus, it would make infinite mana, the spout of which could be the reintroduction of Barren Glory without the need for Mind Over Matter. But then Paradox Engine and Temple Bell could just be too good, and I may be forced, yet again, to forgo Temple Bell entirely. It's hard to tell if the card is too much and will break things or not enough and needs support to run. It's quite the paradox engine.
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
So, I finally managed to cement a 100 card list with Zedruu at the helm. I've had other projects going that I've been closer to finishing, and the guy who said he could help me track down some of the esoterica needed for this guy kind of got really distracted. Which I have to admit is frustrating, as the color fixing and ramp is super crucial, I find having played my first game last night. There's a few sub par donate effects I've tracked down but I'm going to have to track down Pentad Prism, Shifting Borders, Vedalken Plotter and such like.
Anyway, first game was 1v1 vs Atraxa, Praetor's Voice superfriends build. Not an easy matchup. Long story short, got overwhelmed by planeswalkers, ended up with an Ob Nixilis Reignited emblem, Elspeth, Sun's Champion emblem against me, several other PW's of various kinds staring me down, and nothing really donated. My wife did not like looking after Zedruu's things. She did end up owning my
Last turn, last gambit to win, played Zedruu with Jeskai Ascendancy, Strionic Resonator, Temple Bell in play. No EOTS, Pool or P Storm. Donated the emblem. Temple Belled, cast Molten Psyche, and my wife discarded 18 to draw 18, shedding 36 life. Untapped with JA, Temple belled again, Stried, leaving her on something like 10 life, and just a bridge too far to make the win. Nonetheless, I had fun, she had no idea what was going on, and I came damn close. It really made me want to pay a little more attention to fine tuning the build, as it was a lot of fun to pilot.
It's been a long time without posting because I just hadn't been playing much magic, but not playing has never stopped me from fiddling around with decks anyway, so there are a bunch of changes that I just never posted on here and now I have to try and remember my thought processes from the last few months and unravel the mysteries.
The first thing was the death of Aetherflux Reservoir and Drogskol Reaver with it. The Reservoir got a bad reputation with some other decks I played against, and while I didn't mind getting zapped for 50, it made it less exciting when I did it back.
The second set of cuts was Mind Over Matter and Barren Glory with it. I've expressed my determination to cut Mind Over Matter, and then I also cut Barren Glory because it no longer had any chance of success outside of Eye of the Storm Combo.
Since all this was based on wanting to cut things rather than wanting to add things, what I tried in place changed plenty and I'm not quite sure what exactly will be here when the dust settles. I tried 3 different splitsecondspells out just cause I like the mechanic. Conflagrate got in after Mind Over Matter was cut in a last ditch attempt to make emptying my hand for Barren Glory plausible, and it wasn't a bad inclusion necessarily but it got cut out eventually. All that experimentation convinced me that those cards weren't perfect but I did want more instants and sorceries for Eye of the Storm and Noyan Dar. I also tried out a few different top-end creatures, but the only one that sticks in my head is Mirror-Sigil Sergeant, and that just convinced me to build a bant tokens deck (again).
The things that have stuck as of now: Day's Undoing has been in the longest. I got a Crystalline Crawler from the newest commander decks and that has been really solid for me. Temple Bell and Strionic Resonator went in when Mind Over Matter came out and I've not been displeased with them. Chaos Warp snuck after I didn't like the split second option and I don't think I've used it on an opponent's permanent yet. Infinite Reflection snuck back in when the Clones got cut. And then very recently, they printed a card I knew that I wanted to play because of its special 3 word sentence, and when I decided to try it in Zedruu, I brought along the third instant or sorcery with that particular 3 word sentence: "End the turn". So now Zedruu has Glorious End and Time Stop.
I think the deck is more exciting now. I take more risks and do a lower, more acceptable amount of solo-durdle festivals. The things I'm currently uncertain about, I can't help but feel like Copy Enchantment is lonely being the only direct clone left, and it feels weird putting Infinite Reflection back in after so long without it. I only feel like I'm missing one thing though, and that's one big beefy creature to work in conjunction with Mirrorweave/Infinite Reflection/Nahiri ultimate/Venser minus/Vanish Into Memory mega-draw, and preferably it would be one with a trigger to resonate, so if anyone with the patience to read through this rambling has ideas, I'm open to suggestions.
Also, an Ash Barrens snuck in there in place of a land, but I'm not sure which yet. I'll figure that out before I edit the first post, which wont be for a bit because I'd like to get some more games in first.
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
Big changes. I have to admit, I like this thread because you're not simply trying to make this deck undefeatable - you're always trying to keep it interesting for yourself while still being competitive. It's rare and commendable.
...Also, the less top end pieces you have here, the closer I come to having a comparable, competitive Zedruu deck
Hello! Very interesting changes to your deck, I approve! I've been meaning to get rid of mind over matter for a while now, too, although it is still in my current version. I was looking at telekinetic bonds for a while as a replacement, but my current thinking is it is probably just too bad of a magic card. Who knows. Dream halls is also on my short list to cut. Both of those enchantments allow the deck to go the craziest, but they also make it too easy and games become similar, and there's also the problem of solitaire turns once you have a grip full of cards and a dream halls going.
My deck has also undergone big changes, so here they are.
I took a look at what I wanted to do with the deck (enchantments that care about lands), and I looked at something I had wanted to do for a while, which was play with an "illegal" commander - genju of the realm. To tell the truth, black doesn't bring much to the deck - last stand, maelstrom nexus, conflux, the gitrog monster....but I love the thematic flavor of running a general who is an enchant land. I look forward to arguing with people pre-game about whether it is allowed or not.
I also already have a jeleva deck that is my "instants and sorceries matter" deck, so I moved all of the mind's desire and eye of the storm stuff to her deck. I replaced it with some more enchantments and the five color fun stuff.
This deck feels very much in flux right now, with drastic changes to my list every week. I am uncertain about the five color version, I may drop black and go back to kynaios and tiros of meletis, I may even drop green and go back to zedruu the greathearted. I've even been considering going straight izzet for Arjun, the shifting flame as a mindmoil in the command zone. In my mind, this deck style does two things - 1: draw a ton of cards, 2: go crazy. The way that you go crazy can be very different, and there may be enough crazy in just izzet to support it. Having Arjun at commander would make part 1 - draw cards - very consistent and easily accessed, and I think that making the card drawing consistent is what allows the craziness to be different every game.
So for now, I'm going to play with the five color genju iteration for a while and see how it feels. It's a tough balance between trying to do too much in one deck so that nothing works vs being too consistent so it's the same kind of draw to combo game every time. Right now I'm pretty far over towards the doing too much side. Also playing a mana base with many basics for cards that care about basic land types is scary in a 5 color deck.
I may wind up making some more big changes soon, who knows, I'm indecisive!
Big changes. I have to admit, I like this thread because you're not simply trying to make this deck undefeatable - you're always trying to keep it interesting for yourself while still being competitive. It's rare and commendable.
It's also part of why I put as much effort as I have into this thread but I don't aim to be a primer. Primers teach you how to build a deck towards an objective, and when all I'm thinking is "I'm gonna put Glorious End in Eye of the Storm and it's going to be glorious!" it's really more about the journey than the destination.
...Also, the less top end pieces you have here, the closer I come to having a comparable, competitive Zedruu deck
Knollspine Dragon is a card I like (and have a foil of), but it has less synergy points than I want. It goes well with Warstorm Surge, but that's pretty much it. That's ok, I have it in a deck with a Hellcarver Demon and that's a rollercoaster everyone should experience at some point. Chancellor of the Forge is some interesting exponential growth with Infinite Reflection, so I might give that a shot. Ixidron is a funny card, but I'm permanently boycotting it until Wizards fixes the ruling on flipping down double-faced cards. That might be the dumbest rules decision in the game.
In the same vein as Combustible Gearhulk, today I was thinking about good ol' Inferno Titan. It can be resonated, Mirrorweaved, sneak attacked, unblockabled, and vanished into memory (build your own Blue Sun) to pretty good effect, and also points for hitting Swans and Rectors, so it checks all my desired synergy boxes, but it feels so darn tame. The other thing I was thinking about today was Sphinx Ambassador, which with Infinite Reflection becomes an excellent game of "guess which Sphinx Ambassador I picked!" But it's also a depressing card, cause usually it's 7 mana to eat removal, and the rest of the time it's 7 mana to lava axe and then eat a board wipe and then my heart breaks.
Hello! Very interesting changes to your deck, I approve! I've been meaning to get rid of mind over matter for a while now, too, although it is still in my current version. I was looking at telekinetic bonds for a while as a replacement, but my current thinking is it is probably just too bad of a magic card. Who knows. Dream halls is also on my short list to cut. Both of those enchantments allow the deck to go the craziest, but they also make it too easy and games become similar, and there's also the problem of solitaire turns once you have a grip full of cards and a dream halls going.
The thing about Dream Halls is that being a global effect makes it a high risk, high reward situation. I love a double edged sword. Mind Over Matter isn't a double edged sword or even a sword at all. It's more like the P.R.L. 412 from Resident Evil 4 that sends an individual instant death laser at every enemy in the area simultaneously. No risk, infinitely overpowered.
My deck has also undergone big changes, so here they are.
I took a look at what I wanted to do with the deck (enchantments that care about lands), and I looked at something I had wanted to do for a while, which was play with an "illegal" commander - genju of the realm. To tell the truth, black doesn't bring much to the deck - last stand, maelstrom nexus, conflux, the gitrog monster....but I love the thematic flavor of running a general who is an enchant land. I look forward to arguing with people pre-game about whether it is allowed or not.
I also already have a jeleva deck that is my "instants and sorceries matter" deck, so I moved all of the mind's desire and eye of the storm stuff to her deck. I replaced it with some more enchantments and the five color fun stuff.
This deck feels very much in flux right now, with drastic changes to my list every week. I am uncertain about the five color version, I may drop black and go back to kynaios and tiros of meletis, I may even drop green and go back to zedruu the greathearted. I've even been considering going straight izzet for Arjun, the shifting flame as a mindmoil in the command zone. In my mind, this deck style does two things - 1: draw a ton of cards, 2: go crazy. The way that you go crazy can be very different, and there may be enough crazy in just izzet to support it. Having Arjun at commander would make part 1 - draw cards - very consistent and easily accessed, and I think that making the card drawing consistent is what allows the craziness to be different every game.
So for now, I'm going to play with the five color genju iteration for a while and see how it feels. It's a tough balance between trying to do too much in one deck so that nothing works vs being too consistent so it's the same kind of draw to combo game every time. Right now I'm pretty far over towards the doing too much side. Also playing a mana base with many basics for cards that care about basic land types is scary in a 5 color deck.
I may wind up making some more big changes soon, who knows, I'm indecisive!
Oh yeah, it's all about the card draw. Much noise is made over the impact of card advantage, not enough about the fun of card draw. My opponent having 50 cards in hand doesn't do much to diminish the fun of having 49 cards in hand. Drawing cards is fun!
I will say that I support the viability of all possible color combinations. 5 color land-stuffs Genju looks pretty interesting, but it's also absolutely true that you can do crazy things in just izzet. My friend plays Jori En, Ruin Diver with a lot of the izzet elements zedruu likes that just murders people with Sphinx-Bone Wand, and we had an agreement last time we played not to use the two decks at the same table so that we wouldn't make other people watch us spend 20 minutes building a stack of spells trying to be the first one to get Turnabout out of Eye of the Storm.
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
...today I was thinking about good ol' Inferno Titan. It can be resonated, Mirrorweaved, sneak attacked, unblockabled, and vanished into memory (build your own Blue Sun) to pretty good effect, and also points for hitting Swans and Rectors, so it checks all my desired synergy boxes, but it feels so darn tame.
The way your deck is configured, with March of the Machines and Opalescence, it can also mow down miscellaneous artifacts and enchantments. It's a testament to how insane this deck is that "Mirrorweave my Inferno Titan" is considered a tame play.
Edit: What do you think of Amonkhet? There's a pair of cards that just seem generically powerful in any Zedruu deck: Cast Out and Trial of Knowledge.
Edit: What do you think of Amonkhet? There's a pair of cards that just seem generically powerful in any Zedruu deck: Cast Out and Trial of Knowledge.
Amonkhet is sweet. I feel like most magic sets have the issue where most of the cards are boring and weak and a select few are interesting because they're strong, where this set does a good job of having the straight-forward cards be solid like Cast Out and the interesting cards be "bet you didn't see that coming" like Glorious End. Trial of Knowledge is sort of both, cause potentially reusable Sift is a solid card already, but the trial and cartouche mechanic is weird and interesting. If I ever build a deck made of 5 color enchantment cycles, I'm gonna need all the trials and cartouches (and reflections and hondens and those songs from Urza's Saga). Cycling and embalm are good mechanics to have on things and I expect those cards to show up here and there in this format, but the weird stuff is what gets my attention. Approach of the Second Sun is weird (but I think it'd be too easy here), As Foretold is a card that could really do things in a deck with the flash enablers, New Perspectives just begs to be built around, Glorious End is glorious, Harvest Season is thought provoking, Temet, Vizier of Naktamun asks "what can you get under a mimic vat," and all those aftermath cards would be fun if they weren't so darn ugly. Amonkhet gets a thumbs up from me.
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
Oh, the cartouches aren't edh caliber, and only Trial of Knowledge and maybe Trial of Ambition are worthwhile from the trials, but my love of durdling is attracted to the notion of picking things up and putting them down over and over again. When I think of the pros of Trial of Knowledge and say reusable, I'm more often thinking something like +2 Venser every turn. You do have a way with finding all the do-nothing permanents though.
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
I have to admit to looking for a way to returning enchantments to my hand or blinking for ETB triggers. Easy enough in this deck to some degree, and mostly I agree regarding the cartouches. Cartouche of Strength I am trialling in Sigarda, Host of Herons, simply because Sigarda enchantress fighting will take down a big creature almost guaranteed. The more I can do that the better. Unfortunately there's not much that does it in selesnya colours.
Green is the color of fight, so there are many options to make Sigarda fight, unless of course you specifically want the effect on an enchantment and then I guess the cartouche is exactly what you want.
On a different topic, I did some quick bookkeeping on the monetary value of this deck, and the value reduction from the recent changes was slightly less than the natural rise in prices of everything else over time. I guess I can never call this a budget deck.
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
So, I generally think of this deck as stronger in multiplayer than against a single opponent, but over the last week or two, I'm like 1-5 at multiplayer tables and like 6-2 in duels. Most of those wins were tonight, after I got a better feel for my own changes.
I like what I've got, so I'm gonna update the first post to be current, but I wanna do a major revision while I'm swapping 9 cards and an entire combo out, so that'll be tomorrow at the soonest (after I've slept for a few thousand years) and then I'll probably edit this rambling out.
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
Quick update on the update I haven't updated yet: I've gone way overboard here. I've had a line in the first post here claiming I can't account for every unique interaction in this deck, but now I've convinced myself to account for every unique interaction in this deck, and it's a TON of busy work. I've had a text document open for 2 weeks straight as I catalog all the points of intersection (with plenty of goldfishing in the mean time) which amounts to probably the world's most thorough audit of a casual magic deck, and that lead to a few more adjustments to the list which then makes me go back and edit those in. So I'm not quite finished typing it up and once I am I'll have to make sure the forum formatting checks out. But it's a labor of love, so it'll be done soon.
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
Thank you tStorm. You made me want to build a deck revolved around Mirrorweave. What a fun card! Just played a game where it won me the game. It was a crazy board for sure, but everything got stalled, though everyone was about to go off. Eot I flash in Dictate of the Twin Gods, then proceed to play Starfield of Nyx and Wild Research which tutors for Mirrorweave. I make Zedruu and Thassa, God of the Sea unblockable and attack, Mirrorweave targets Dictate of the Twin Gods with 29 creatures on board... This card is just stupid!
I couldn't even do the math But am I right about the doubling damage stacking, so the damage dealt would have been 5^29?
Edit: You seem to have indepth knowlegde about Mirrorweave - do you know of any artifacts that it would do some wanky interactions with? Right now I really only have Thought Reflection and Dictate of the Twin Gods. Noyan Dar and Contested War Zone also. Thinking about adding Drooling Ogre too, though it's not as fun stealing their creatures as it is making a blowout out of onewhere!
I couldn't even do the math But am I right about the doubling damage stacking, so the damage dealt would have been 5^29?
You're right about the doubling effects stacking with each other but doubling corresponds to multiplication by 2, not to multiplication by 5. So the damage would be (Zedruu's power + Thassa's power)*2^29 = 3,758,096,384. Or, if you prefer, 375-809-6384. As someone who regularly beats face with Zedruu I'm absurdly envious right now. Well done.
I couldn't even do the math But am I right about the doubling damage stacking, so the damage dealt would have been 5^29?
You're right about the doubling effects stacking with each other but doubling corresponds to multiplication by 2, not to multiplication by 5. So the damage would be (Zedruu's power + Thassa's power)*2^29 = 3,758,096,384. Or, if you prefer, 375-809-6384. As someone who regularly beats face with Zedruu I'm absurdly envious right now. Well done.
Even more than that, Zedruu and Thassa are animated Dictates, so they actually have 5 power each, so 5,368,709,120.
I couldn't even do the math But am I right about the doubling damage stacking, so the damage dealt would have been 5^29?
Edit: You seem to have indepth knowlegde about Mirrorweave - do you know of any artifacts that it would do some wanky interactions with? Right now I really only have Thought Reflection and Dictate of the Twin Gods. Noyan Dar and Contested War Zone also. Thinking about adding Drooling Ogre too, though it's not as fun stealing their creatures as it is making a blowout out of onewhere!
I'm less an expert on Mirrorweave than I am an enthusiast, so I can mostly just speak to my experiences. Like getting someone to mill out by drawing 30 cards from their 15 Drogskol Reavers, or going into combat with like 8 Goblin Rabblemasters, or pumping all my Jeskai Ascendancies with all my Jeskai Ascendancies. As far as artifacts go, part of my writing project here is a treatise on what happens if you turn permanents into Knowledge Pool, but that's pretty much the opposite of making a blowout out of nowhere. Obviously you can't Mirrorweave Time Vault in this format, but if you could, it'd be pretty clever. I've also thought about Doubling Cube or Blinkmoth Urn, but those require good mana sinks to do anything special. In the end, most of my artifact Mirrorweaving has been Font of Mythos on upkeep to draw like 30 cards and then worry about actually winning.
The only other artifact thought I have comes from an entirely different deck idea I've tooled around with, but never with blue so never with Mirrorweave. That deck is "give people creatures" the deck, where things like Forbidden Orchard and Varchild's War-Riders feed people creatures, and then stuff like Repercussion and Rakdos Charm punish them, and one of my punishment cards is Angel's Trumpet, and thinking about it, you may not need much support to get that working. With March of the Machines, there should be 10+ creatures in play pretty regularly, and someone might have 4 things they'd rather be hurt by than risk in combat thinking 4 damage is no big deal, and then kablammo 40! To note, Angel's Trumpet is not something I can play in this deck because then everyone would just attack me and I'd be murdered dead in a pass or 2 around the table, but if you're building deliberately for Mirrorweave, you're probably playing some creatures than can block for you a little better than a Memnite.
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
You're right about the doubling effects stacking with each other but doubling corresponds to multiplication by 2, not to multiplication by 5. So the damage would be (Zedruu's power + Thassa's power)*2^29 = 3,758,096,384. Or, if you prefer, 375-809-6384. As someone who regularly beats face with Zedruu I'm absurdly envious right now. Well done.
Yeah, of cause. The 5^29 came from Zedruu and Thassa being 5/5's, but im just not that good at math. And thank you - maybe you should add Mirrorweave to your list
I'm less an expert on Mirrorweave than I am an enthusiast, so I can mostly just speak to my experiences. Like getting someone to mill out by drawing 30 cards from their 15 Drogskol Reavers, or going into combat with like 8 Goblin Rabblemasters, or pumping all my Jeskai Ascendancies with all my Jeskai Ascendancies. As far as artifacts go, part of my writing project here is a treatise on what happens if you turn permanents into Knowledge Pool, but that's pretty much the opposite of making a blowout out of nowhere. Obviously you can't Mirrorweave Time Vault in this format, but if you could, it'd be pretty clever. I've also thought about Doubling Cube or Blinkmoth Urn, but those require good mana sinks to do anything special. In the end, most of my artifact Mirrorweaving has been Font of Mythos on upkeep to draw like 30 cards and then worry about actually winning.
The only other artifact thought I have comes from an entirely different deck idea I've tooled around with, but never with blue so never with Mirrorweave. That deck is "give people creatures" the deck, where things like Forbidden Orchard and Varchild's War-Riders feed people creatures, and then stuff like Repercussion and Rakdos Charm punish them, and one of my punishment cards is Angel's Trumpet, and thinking about it, you may not need much support to get that working. With March of the Machines, there should be 10+ creatures in play pretty regularly, and someone might have 4 things they'd rather be hurt by than risk in combat thinking 4 damage is no big deal, and then kablammo 40! To note, Angel's Trumpet is not something I can play in this deck because then everyone would just attack me and I'd be murdered dead in a pass or 2 around the table, but if you're building deliberately for Mirrorweave, you're probably playing some creatures than can block for you a little better than a Memnite.
I think I saw you mention that "give peopler creatures" deck somewhere. Sounds like a pretty awesome idea! I might consider the Trumpet for my deck, I could see it being a blowout, and I do already have Forbidden Orchard in my deck. I also run some pillowfort pieces, though I'm not sure which of them I'm settled for. The "pay x to attack" have been mediocre, so now I'm testing Meekstone and Crackdown. If I were to add some "give people creatures"-strategy, maybe Smoke might be a good card to add, or even Crawlspace. I don't have many blockers, but the Morphling (which is a old favorite of mine) and Aetherling is indeed better blockers then Memnite, and they have pretty good evasion.
Unfortunately, I only very rarely get to actually play magic, so this list is all theorycrafted and unplayed at the moment - hence a lot of the questions around playability issues that could be resolved with a little bit of experience (numbers of lands and whatnot).
I think your commentary is mostly spot on, and I'm going to incorporate a lot of your suggested changes.
Beacon of immortality - I had it included for its synergy with wild research and the possibility of looping for double life every turn. It is a big splashy effect, and one that is great with eye of the storm as well, but given its complete lack of synergy with the entire rest of the deck, I think it's a safe cut.
Dictate of kruphix and sylvan library - great catch on the draw step clause. I forgot to check this one, and I think that it's a good cut given my 3 (!!!) cards that skip the draw step. I had checked most of the cards for this interaction, but not these two, and I think they are good cuts. If I want a replacement for them, I could use mystic remora, rhystic study, mind's eye, etc...
unifying theory - this was a speculative inclusion as a possible group hug card draw, but if you say it costs too much then I believe you and I'll cut it for something better.
rites of flourishing - I am trying to keep my group hug cards limited to only providing cards to my opponents (and therefore triggering psychic possession), and not ever giving them extra mana to actually cast those cards with! I love the card, but I don't want to include it for that reason.
Enduring ideal win conditions - you're right that I might be low on actual wins. I have good defense/disruption in possibility storm and solitary confinement. I wanted to avoid the old dovescape, humility, meishin stuff, because I think P-storm is enough, plus it's more fun. and I like that it's not an actual lock without arcane laboratory - if someone P-storms into a disenchant, good for them, I'll let them back in the game at that point. opalescence + parallax wave are always available via enduring ideal if necessary to board wipe and attack with enchantments, but I think I might want one more win condition for enduring ideal. Maybe form of the dragon or dragon roost or vicious shadows or luminarch ascension or zendikar's roil or something.
I may put swans back in, with or without blasphemous act and/or pyrohemia. maybe even volcano hellion and stuffy doll and boros reckoner.
On the vein of combos you have that I cut, I may include the lifegain package too.
I may also include memory jar and/or teferi's puzzle box.
I like your thoughts on tidespout tyrant and I agree not really worth it based on the synergy with the deck, even though it is an objectively powerful and fun card on its own.
right now, I do have oblation and beast within as well as opalescence + firestorm/seismic assault to deal with my self mill problem if necessary, I'm not sure if I need more...I may include greater good and/or perilous forays and/or claws of gix as sac outlets - good with reins of power too!
I want to keep the artifact count low so that I can play fun cards like rebuild, and maybe energy flux, and to dodge vandalblast, and to maximize my use of wild research by using the right card types, and because it's cool to have no artifacts! I really want my artifact hate to work with my themes (be instants or enchantments) and be the most fun version possible. I think bouncing all artifacts or taxing them is more interesting than just blowing them up.
Thanks again for the reply. I love the deck, and I appreciate your great contributions to my take on it!
--------
Updates:
-dictate of kruphix
-sylvan library
-unifying theory
-beacon of immortality
-replenish
-commandeer
+mystic remora
+swans of bryn argoll
+form of the dragon
+pyrohemia
+leyline of anticipation
+starfield of nyx
New question - how bad is the 5 enchantment restriction on starfield of nyx? Is it ever active?
I am considering putting in holistic wisdom
or seasons past for some juicy graveyard recycling. Still looking for room for library of leng as well.
The 5 enchantment restriction isn't bad at all in a deck with like 25 enchantments, especially with Enduring Ideal going. It's actually kind of neat to play with, as the opportunity to spot remove your own enchantment creature to turn off starfield and dodge a boardwipe is a thing that can happen. I'm actually pretty ok with it being that high a number since the biggest reason to make your things creatures is to attack with them and you sort of want a big swing then anyway. It is harder to use than Opalescence for doing things like kicking Rite of Replication on Fevered Visions, but it's literally 100% more effective at giving free Eye of the Storm on your upkeep. And never forget you can Mirrorweave an animated enchantment like a Thought Reflection to make all your things 7/7s and all your opponent's things non-creatures. I give Starfield a "really complicated to use optimally out of 10", but that's a positive in my mind. I cut mine because having two of that effect made it too consistent a game plan for my tastes, and without much graveyard synergy (and often the inability to even discard to hand size), Starfield was worse for me than Opalescence, but it definitely works.
My favorite graveyard recursion card in my big mana green deck is Praetor's Counsel, but that is a deck with like 7 mana doublers, so 8 mana is like a 2 drop by the time I need it.
2 lands + bounceland --> knight of the reliquary fetching lotus vale
Mind over matter, discard all cards in hand but one to untap lotus vale and make 11 mana --> minds aglow both draw 14, (game is basically over at this point)
Noyan dar + jeskai ascendancy appear, lotus vale and bounceland become creatures, start running through all the cards in the deck, eye of the storm hits, some more spells happen, and I wind up winning with a cyclonic rift to clear the way for a handful of 10/10 lands and beast within tokens.
So much fun!!!
Even after my first game, I totally get what you're saying about Mind over matter being too powerful. After I played that enchantment, it felt like there was basically no restriction on what I could do, as long as I kept having ways to draw cards. I might try to replace it with telekinetic bonds and make sure I have enough discard outlets to keep it working.
I've got this rolling about in my head. It would do oh so very much, particularly with the artifacts I've been bouncing around as possibilities: Doubling Cube, Temple Bell, and Strionic Resonator. With Strionic Resonator and Gilded Lotus, it would make infinite mana, the spout of which could be the reintroduction of Barren Glory without the need for Mind Over Matter. But then Paradox Engine and Temple Bell could just be too good, and I may be forced, yet again, to forgo Temple Bell entirely. It's hard to tell if the card is too much and will break things or not enough and needs support to run. It's quite the paradox engine.
Anyway, first game was 1v1 vs Atraxa, Praetor's Voice superfriends build. Not an easy matchup. Long story short, got overwhelmed by planeswalkers, ended up with an Ob Nixilis Reignited emblem, Elspeth, Sun's Champion emblem against me, several other PW's of various kinds staring me down, and nothing really donated. My wife did not like looking after Zedruu's things. She did end up owning my
Last turn, last gambit to win, played Zedruu with Jeskai Ascendancy, Strionic Resonator, Temple Bell in play. No EOTS, Pool or P Storm. Donated the emblem. Temple Belled, cast Molten Psyche, and my wife discarded 18 to draw 18, shedding 36 life. Untapped with JA, Temple belled again, Stried, leaving her on something like 10 life, and just a bridge too far to make the win. Nonetheless, I had fun, she had no idea what was going on, and I came damn close. It really made me want to pay a little more attention to fine tuning the build, as it was a lot of fun to pilot.
The first thing was the death of Aetherflux Reservoir and Drogskol Reaver with it. The Reservoir got a bad reputation with some other decks I played against, and while I didn't mind getting zapped for 50, it made it less exciting when I did it back.
The second set of cuts was Mind Over Matter and Barren Glory with it. I've expressed my determination to cut Mind Over Matter, and then I also cut Barren Glory because it no longer had any chance of success outside of Eye of the Storm Combo.
That eventually lead to the third, final, and biggest set of cuts, which was building Myojin of Seeing Winds its own deck, which is effectively mono-U clones and bounces, so that deck now owns my Clever Impersonator and Phyrexian Metamorph and Sakashima the Impostor and Myojin of Seeing Winds.
Since all this was based on wanting to cut things rather than wanting to add things, what I tried in place changed plenty and I'm not quite sure what exactly will be here when the dust settles. I tried 3 different split second spells out just cause I like the mechanic. Conflagrate got in after Mind Over Matter was cut in a last ditch attempt to make emptying my hand for Barren Glory plausible, and it wasn't a bad inclusion necessarily but it got cut out eventually. All that experimentation convinced me that those cards weren't perfect but I did want more instants and sorceries for Eye of the Storm and Noyan Dar. I also tried out a few different top-end creatures, but the only one that sticks in my head is Mirror-Sigil Sergeant, and that just convinced me to build a bant tokens deck (again).
The things that have stuck as of now: Day's Undoing has been in the longest. I got a Crystalline Crawler from the newest commander decks and that has been really solid for me. Temple Bell and Strionic Resonator went in when Mind Over Matter came out and I've not been displeased with them. Chaos Warp snuck after I didn't like the split second option and I don't think I've used it on an opponent's permanent yet. Infinite Reflection snuck back in when the Clones got cut. And then very recently, they printed a card I knew that I wanted to play because of its special 3 word sentence, and when I decided to try it in Zedruu, I brought along the third instant or sorcery with that particular 3 word sentence: "End the turn". So now Zedruu has Glorious End and Time Stop.
I think the deck is more exciting now. I take more risks and do a lower, more acceptable amount of solo-durdle festivals. The things I'm currently uncertain about, I can't help but feel like Copy Enchantment is lonely being the only direct clone left, and it feels weird putting Infinite Reflection back in after so long without it. I only feel like I'm missing one thing though, and that's one big beefy creature to work in conjunction with Mirrorweave/Infinite Reflection/Nahiri ultimate/Venser minus/Vanish Into Memory mega-draw, and preferably it would be one with a trigger to resonate, so if anyone with the patience to read through this rambling has ideas, I'm open to suggestions.
Also, an Ash Barrens snuck in there in place of a land, but I'm not sure which yet. I'll figure that out before I edit the first post, which wont be for a bit because I'd like to get some more games in first.
...Also, the less top end pieces you have here, the closer I come to having a comparable, competitive Zedruu deck
Suggestions for beefy creatures:
Knollspine Dragon feels like a fun fit.
Angel of Sanctions is O-ring on a good-sized body.
Chancellor of the Forge would go nuts here once you've cast Opalescence, March of the Machines or Noyan Dar, Roil-Shaper. Also, crazy good effect to StriRes or Infinitely Reflect.
Tyrant of Discord is a weird random effect on a 7/7.
Combustible Gearhulk could be really fun.
Ixidron is a crazy effect. I keep cutting it from my decks, but it could be viable here.
My deck has also undergone big changes, so here they are.
I took a look at what I wanted to do with the deck (enchantments that care about lands), and I looked at something I had wanted to do for a while, which was play with an "illegal" commander - genju of the realm. To tell the truth, black doesn't bring much to the deck - last stand, maelstrom nexus, conflux, the gitrog monster....but I love the thematic flavor of running a general who is an enchant land. I look forward to arguing with people pre-game about whether it is allowed or not.
I also already have a jeleva deck that is my "instants and sorceries matter" deck, so I moved all of the mind's desire and eye of the storm stuff to her deck. I replaced it with some more enchantments and the five color fun stuff.
This deck feels very much in flux right now, with drastic changes to my list every week. I am uncertain about the five color version, I may drop black and go back to
kynaios and tiros of meletis, I may even drop green and go back to zedruu the greathearted. I've even been considering going straight izzet for Arjun, the shifting flame as a mindmoil in the command zone. In my mind, this deck style does two things - 1: draw a ton of cards, 2: go crazy. The way that you go crazy can be very different, and there may be enough crazy in just izzet to support it. Having Arjun at commander would make part 1 - draw cards - very consistent and easily accessed, and I think that making the card drawing consistent is what allows the craziness to be different every game.
So for now, I'm going to play with the five color genju iteration for a while and see how it feels. It's a tough balance between trying to do too much in one deck so that nothing works vs being too consistent so it's the same kind of draw to combo game every time. Right now I'm pretty far over towards the doing too much side. Also playing a mana base with many basics for cards that care about basic land types is scary in a 5 color deck.
I may wind up making some more big changes soon, who knows, I'm indecisive!
1 Command Tower
1 Contested War Zone
1 Evolving Wilds
7 Forest
6 Island
1 Lotus Vale
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
3 Mountain
1 Myriad Landscape
5 Plains
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Riftstone Portal
1 Rupture Spire
3 Swamp
1 Terminal Moraine
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Thawing Glaciers
1 Transguild Promenade
1 Warped Landscape
1 Abundance
1 Archmage Ascension
1 Bloom Tender
1 Boundless Realms
1 Ceta Sanctuary
1 Conflux
1 Copy Enchantment
1 Cultivate
1 Dance of Many
1 Day of the Dragons
1 Dispersing Orb
1 Dream Halls
1 Elfhame Sanctuary
1 Enchantress's Presence
1 Energy Flux
1 Far Wanderings
1 Fateful Showdown
1 Fevered Visions
1 Genju of the Realm
1 Guided Passage
1 Harrow
1 Jace Beleren
1 Jeskai Ascendancy
1 Khalni Heart Expedition
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Kodama's Reach
1 Land Tax
1 Last Stand
1 Leyline of Anticipation
1 Life from the Loam
1 Lotus Cobra
1 Maelstrom Nexus
1 Mana Reflection
1 Mind Over Matter
1 Mindmoil
1 Minds Aglow
1 Mirari's Wake
1 Mirrorweave
1 Nature's Revolt
1 Pandemonium
1 Patron of the Moon
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Planar Birth
1 Praetor's Counsel
1 Prismatic Omen
1 Psychic Possession
1 Pyrohemia
1 Recycle
1 Reins of Power
1 Replenish
1 Retreat to Coralhelm
1 Rite of Replication
1 Seismic Assault
1 Starfield of Nyx
1 Swans of Bryn Argoll
1 The Gitrog Monster
1 Thought Reflection
1 Trade Routes
1 Verdant Confluence
1 Worm Harvest
1 Zendikar's Roil
It's also part of why I put as much effort as I have into this thread but I don't aim to be a primer. Primers teach you how to build a deck towards an objective, and when all I'm thinking is "I'm gonna put Glorious End in Eye of the Storm and it's going to be glorious!" it's really more about the journey than the destination.
Knollspine Dragon is a card I like (and have a foil of), but it has less synergy points than I want. It goes well with Warstorm Surge, but that's pretty much it. That's ok, I have it in a deck with a Hellcarver Demon and that's a rollercoaster everyone should experience at some point. Chancellor of the Forge is some interesting exponential growth with Infinite Reflection, so I might give that a shot. Ixidron is a funny card, but I'm permanently boycotting it until Wizards fixes the ruling on flipping down double-faced cards. That might be the dumbest rules decision in the game.
In the same vein as Combustible Gearhulk, today I was thinking about good ol' Inferno Titan. It can be resonated, Mirrorweaved, sneak attacked, unblockabled, and vanished into memory (build your own Blue Sun) to pretty good effect, and also points for hitting Swans and Rectors, so it checks all my desired synergy boxes, but it feels so darn tame. The other thing I was thinking about today was Sphinx Ambassador, which with Infinite Reflection becomes an excellent game of "guess which Sphinx Ambassador I picked!" But it's also a depressing card, cause usually it's 7 mana to eat removal, and the rest of the time it's 7 mana to lava axe and then eat a board wipe and then my heart breaks.
The thing about Dream Halls is that being a global effect makes it a high risk, high reward situation. I love a double edged sword. Mind Over Matter isn't a double edged sword or even a sword at all. It's more like the P.R.L. 412 from Resident Evil 4 that sends an individual instant death laser at every enemy in the area simultaneously. No risk, infinitely overpowered.
Oh yeah, it's all about the card draw. Much noise is made over the impact of card advantage, not enough about the fun of card draw. My opponent having 50 cards in hand doesn't do much to diminish the fun of having 49 cards in hand. Drawing cards is fun!
I will say that I support the viability of all possible color combinations. 5 color land-stuffs Genju looks pretty interesting, but it's also absolutely true that you can do crazy things in just izzet. My friend plays Jori En, Ruin Diver with a lot of the izzet elements zedruu likes that just murders people with Sphinx-Bone Wand, and we had an agreement last time we played not to use the two decks at the same table so that we wouldn't make other people watch us spend 20 minutes building a stack of spells trying to be the first one to get Turnabout out of Eye of the Storm.
Edit: What do you think of Amonkhet? There's a pair of cards that just seem generically powerful in any Zedruu deck: Cast Out and Trial of Knowledge.
Amonkhet is sweet. I feel like most magic sets have the issue where most of the cards are boring and weak and a select few are interesting because they're strong, where this set does a good job of having the straight-forward cards be solid like Cast Out and the interesting cards be "bet you didn't see that coming" like Glorious End. Trial of Knowledge is sort of both, cause potentially reusable Sift is a solid card already, but the trial and cartouche mechanic is weird and interesting. If I ever build a deck made of 5 color enchantment cycles, I'm gonna need all the trials and cartouches (and reflections and hondens and those songs from Urza's Saga). Cycling and embalm are good mechanics to have on things and I expect those cards to show up here and there in this format, but the weird stuff is what gets my attention. Approach of the Second Sun is weird (but I think it'd be too easy here), As Foretold is a card that could really do things in a deck with the flash enablers, New Perspectives just begs to be built around, Glorious End is glorious, Harvest Season is thought provoking, Temet, Vizier of Naktamun asks "what can you get under a mimic vat," and all those aftermath cards would be fun if they weren't so darn ugly. Amonkhet gets a thumbs up from me.
On a different topic, I did some quick bookkeeping on the monetary value of this deck, and the value reduction from the recent changes was slightly less than the natural rise in prices of everything else over time. I guess I can never call this a budget deck.
I've now Strionic Resonator'd Zedruu, Kami, Howling Mine, Paradox Haze, Knowledge Pool, Eye of the Storm, Mind's Desire, Jeskai Ascendancy, Oath of Lieges, Land Tax, and Inferno Titan. I have killed by Mirrorweaving Inferno Titan as well as knocking of some Swiftfoot Boots with March of the Machines before killing them with Inferno Titan. (Side note: that same game a player cast army of the damned, another player rakdos charmed, and I responded with flash Dissipation Field and donate to the guy with tokens.) I've cast Glorious End in 3 separate games, won 2 of them, and the loss wasn't to the Glorious End trigger. Crystalline Crawler with Jeskai Ascendancy got two of the wins, one with Mirrorweave and one with Knowledge Pool nonsense. It was Copy Enchantment that got left out to play with Inferno Titan, and I like that for now so I'm keeping it.
I like what I've got, so I'm gonna update the first post to be current, but I wanna do a major revision while I'm swapping 9 cards and an entire combo out, so that'll be tomorrow at the soonest (after I've slept for a few thousand years) and then I'll probably edit this rambling out.
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
Edit: You seem to have indepth knowlegde about Mirrorweave - do you know of any artifacts that it would do some wanky interactions with? Right now I really only have Thought Reflection and Dictate of the Twin Gods. Noyan Dar and Contested War Zone also. Thinking about adding Drooling Ogre too, though it's not as fun stealing their creatures as it is making a blowout out of onewhere!
Combat would be the most complicated thing of all time if every permanent were an artifact and every creature were Arcbound Ravager.
Even more than that, Zedruu and Thassa are animated Dictates, so they actually have 5 power each, so 5,368,709,120.
I'm less an expert on Mirrorweave than I am an enthusiast, so I can mostly just speak to my experiences. Like getting someone to mill out by drawing 30 cards from their 15 Drogskol Reavers, or going into combat with like 8 Goblin Rabblemasters, or pumping all my Jeskai Ascendancies with all my Jeskai Ascendancies. As far as artifacts go, part of my writing project here is a treatise on what happens if you turn permanents into Knowledge Pool, but that's pretty much the opposite of making a blowout out of nowhere. Obviously you can't Mirrorweave Time Vault in this format, but if you could, it'd be pretty clever. I've also thought about Doubling Cube or Blinkmoth Urn, but those require good mana sinks to do anything special. In the end, most of my artifact Mirrorweaving has been Font of Mythos on upkeep to draw like 30 cards and then worry about actually winning.
The only other artifact thought I have comes from an entirely different deck idea I've tooled around with, but never with blue so never with Mirrorweave. That deck is "give people creatures" the deck, where things like Forbidden Orchard and Varchild's War-Riders feed people creatures, and then stuff like Repercussion and Rakdos Charm punish them, and one of my punishment cards is Angel's Trumpet, and thinking about it, you may not need much support to get that working. With March of the Machines, there should be 10+ creatures in play pretty regularly, and someone might have 4 things they'd rather be hurt by than risk in combat thinking 4 damage is no big deal, and then kablammo 40! To note, Angel's Trumpet is not something I can play in this deck because then everyone would just attack me and I'd be murdered dead in a pass or 2 around the table, but if you're building deliberately for Mirrorweave, you're probably playing some creatures than can block for you a little better than a Memnite.
This is hilarious.
I think I saw you mention that "give peopler creatures" deck somewhere. Sounds like a pretty awesome idea! I might consider the Trumpet for my deck, I could see it being a blowout, and I do already have Forbidden Orchard in my deck. I also run some pillowfort pieces, though I'm not sure which of them I'm settled for. The "pay x to attack" have been mediocre, so now I'm testing Meekstone and Crackdown. If I were to add some "give people creatures"-strategy, maybe Smoke might be a good card to add, or even Crawlspace. I don't have many blockers, but the Morphling (which is a old favorite of mine) and Aetherling is indeed better blockers then Memnite, and they have pretty good evasion.