Have some questions though: I know that using Cruel Bargain and Infernal Contract sticks so much to suicidal theme of the deck and I LOVE this, but have you considered/tried Syphon Mind or Ambition's Cost as safer options? Is it the just the theme or 4cards for BBB is THAT more important than 3B for 3 cards? What do you think?
i think actually, most likely, in a multiplayer table, they are probably better. probably the same amount of card draw, without the drawback, and with disruption against your opponents is epic. but as i understand it, this is supposed to be a 1v1 list?
by the way, i recently got creamed by a deck called 'spanish inquisition'. its a legacy deck thats like belcher, but uses infernal contract and cruel bargain to kinda 'go off' again after their first one fizzles. those 2 cards are seriously good in a 1v1 setting!
Hi guys! I have been observing the post for many months. Im so happy that the deck idea and implementing changes is still alive in this thread.
The deck is the most flavorous and most demonic-madness-riot-suicidal-fun idea Ive ever seen.
Have some questions though: I know that using Cruel Bargain and Infernal Cortract sticks so much to suicidal theme of the deck and I LOVE this, but have you considered/tried Syphon Mind or Ambition's Cost as safer options? Is it the just the theme or 4cards for BBB is THAT more important than 3B for 3 cards? What do you think?
Do you think that Command Beacon might be good for discard/reanimation combo?
Also, do you have any other experiances in multiplayer games? Is the deck very easy to stop? How does it go if you have no combo in hand?
Syphon Mind and Ambition's Cost are perfectly reasonable alternates to Cruel Bargain and Infernal Contract. My reasoning for using the cards are based on mana efficiency and psychology.
Before elaborating, i currently feel that the amount of card draw in the deck is already at a solid place, and justifications could be made to replace any of them for other effects.
On the note of mana efficiency, being able to draw 4 cards for 3 mana is much more powerful than drawing 3 for 4 mana. Using mana efficient cards open up future turns or frees up mana to be used elsewhere. 3 mana is easier to fit into a turn while playing other spells as well.
Next there is psychology and theme. Players tend to treat someone who is willing to lose 20 life to draw 4 cards, just cause as anything but a threat. They pretty much forum assumptions that you are playing a joke deck or that you'll end up killing yourself without their involvement etc. This form of play sucks them into playing at your pace. You can read through some of the gamelogs in the thread for examples of how this can lead your opponent into playing on tilt and making grave mistakes.
TLDR, they are not THAT more important, but there are significant reasons why the cards are given a spot in the deck.
Command Beacon: I've not though of this. Could potentially help to up the handcount on turn 1/2 to get a discard trigger->reanimation. Late game it could help recast the commander after one too many deaths. I'm not sure if there is any wiggle room to add a colorless land to the deck, but if there is it could potentially work out well. I'll be trying it out soon, thanks.
Have some questions though: I know that using Cruel Bargain and Infernal Contract sticks so much to suicidal theme of the deck and I LOVE this, but have you considered/tried Syphon Mind or Ambition's Cost as safer options? Is it the just the theme or 4cards for BBB is THAT more important than 3B for 3 cards? What do you think?
i think actually, most likely, in a multiplayer table, they are probably better. probably the same amount of card draw, without the drawback, and with disruption against your opponents is epic. but as i understand it, this is supposed to be a 1v1 list?
by the way, i recently got creamed by a deck called 'spanish inquisition'. its a legacy deck thats like belcher, but uses infernal contract and cruel bargain to kinda 'go off' again after their first one fizzles. those 2 cards are seriously good in a 1v1 setting!
any updates on the list/observations?
The deck is made for multiplayer, but most of my play sessions do happen in 1v1 settings. Syphon has an upside and a downside depending on the number of players at the table.
Not sure what you were trying to say about the spanish inquisition deck. Were you unable to prevent it from comboing off for some reason?
Hi guys! I have been observing the post for many months. Im so happy that the deck idea and implementing changes is still alive in this thread.
The deck is the most flavorous and most demonic-madness-riot-suicidal-fun idea Ive ever seen.
Have some questions though: I know that using Cruel Bargain and Infernal Cortract sticks so much to suicidal theme of the deck and I LOVE this, but have you considered/tried Syphon Mind or Ambition's Cost as safer options? Is it the just the theme or 4cards for BBB is THAT more important than 3B for 3 cards? What do you think?
Do you think that Command Beacon might be good for discard/reanimation combo?
Also, do you have any other experiances in multiplayer games? Is the deck very easy to stop? How does it go if you have no combo in hand?
Syphon Mind and Ambition's Cost are perfectly reasonable alternates to Cruel Bargain and Infernal Contract. My reasoning for using the cards are based on mana efficiency and psychology.
Before elaborating, i currently feel that the amount of card draw in the deck is already at a solid place, and justifications could be made to replace any of them for other effects.
On the note of mana efficiency, being able to draw 4 cards for 3 mana is much more powerful than drawing 3 for 4 mana. Using mana efficient cards open up future turns or frees up mana to be used elsewhere. 3 mana is easier to fit into a turn while playing other spells as well.
Next there is psychology and theme. Players tend to treat someone who is willing to lose 20 life to draw 4 cards, just cause as anything but a threat. They pretty much forum assumptions that you are playing a joke deck or that you'll end up killing yourself without their involvement etc. This form of play sucks them into playing at your pace. You can read through some of the gamelogs in the thread for examples of how this can lead your opponent into playing on tilt and making grave mistakes.
TLDR, they are not THAT more important, but there are significant reasons why the cards are given a spot in the deck.
Command Beacon: I've not though of this. Could potentially help to up the handcount on turn 1/2 to get a discard trigger->reanimation. Late game it could help recast the commander after one too many deaths. I'm not sure if there is any wiggle room to add a colorless land to the deck, but if there is it could potentially work out well. I'll be trying it out soon, thanks.
Have some questions though: I know that using Cruel Bargain and Infernal Contract sticks so much to suicidal theme of the deck and I LOVE this, but have you considered/tried Syphon Mind or Ambition's Cost as safer options? Is it the just the theme or 4cards for BBB is THAT more important than 3B for 3 cards? What do you think?
i think actually, most likely, in a multiplayer table, they are probably better. probably the same amount of card draw, without the drawback, and with disruption against your opponents is epic. but as i understand it, this is supposed to be a 1v1 list?
by the way, i recently got creamed by a deck called 'spanish inquisition'. its a legacy deck thats like belcher, but uses infernal contract and cruel bargain to kinda 'go off' again after their first one fizzles. those 2 cards are seriously good in a 1v1 setting!
any updates on the list/observations?
The deck is made for multiplayer, but most of my play sessions do happen in 1v1 settings. Syphon has an upside and a downside depending on the number of players at the table.
Not sure what you were trying to say about the spanish inquisition deck. Were you unable to prevent it from comboing off for some reason?
yea i mean i could stifle the storm when they try to go off, and normally with TES, belcher et al, they're pretty much toast, right, but with spanish inquisition, they just draw for the turn, then draw 4, then go off, again. its not like most decks have the capability to be able to stop another going off moment, or at least no one ever expects a second going off so soon after the first go.. which is why its called spanish inquisition!
i follow this thread quite a bit, and because of the number of 1v1 games, i just assumed that it was a 1v1 list. but obviously, if i'd have read thoroughly, i'd have known that it was a multiplayer list!
back to siphon mind, i'd say if you were playing in a 4 player or more game, there might be a place for it, not just 'cuz it draws you cards, but because it disrupts your opponents as well. having said that, letting them choose which cards to keep basically means you're not always disrupting them, and when players start getting knocked out of the game/late game, it really wouldn't be pulling its weight.
also, if you're looking for more haste enablers after anger and mass hysteria, Urabrask the Hidden might be on the top-end heavy, but hes a body AND slows your opponents down (and stops them from flashing in blockers). not sure if he'd be too slow for ya, but i at least think hes usually quite underrated for what he does.
in terms of burst mana-production, just curious what your thoughts on Treasonous Ogre have been. see my playgroup uses a 30 life rule instead of 40, but the ogre can still help suddenly go from early-mid game to huge burst of mana game over. its no channel, but when its been good, its been really good. kinda like a 4-mana ritual? sort of?
I always feel like sneak attack was a wasted draw. yes, it gives the demon haste and puts it into the yard to be reanimated again, but if I could ritual the sneak attack into play, 90% of the time I could just as easily ritual the demon I wanted to play instead. It was a waste for me. Beyond that, in order to be good, it requires red mana. I often have issues keeping more than one red mana alive (folks tend to blow up my red sources for some reason... )
For now I also leave Sneak Attack in the deck. Have to test it though to give some opinion on that.
@Silenciaco, you said that you are dropping Necropotence from the list (it's still there though). I have been thinking to include Disciple of Bolas to sacrifice reanimated demon. This will allow putting it into a grave instead of exiling it. What about more reanimation? Maybe we could squeeze in Necromancy or Animate Dead? You said you included them, but I can't see them on the list.
Maybe we could add a copy of Vampiric Tutor since the deck relies hardly on combo/explosive plays. EOT tutor would surely ease putting all the pieces of the puzzle together.
For now I also leave Sneak Attack in the deck. Have to test it though to give some opinion on that.
@Silenciaco, you said that you are dropping Necropotence from the list (it's still there though). I have been thinking to include Disciple of Bolas to sacrifice reanimated demon. This will allow putting it into a grave instead of exiling it. What about more reanimation? Maybe we could squeeze in Necromancy or Animate Dead? You said you included them, but I can't see them on the list.
Maybe we could add a copy of Vampiric Tutor since the deck relies hardly on combo/explosive plays. EOT tutor would surely ease putting all the pieces of the puzzle together.
Looks like i edited the changelog on the OP, but forgot to change the decklist itself. Thanks for the headsup. Tutors can always be added into the deck for additional consistency. They also tend to make games play out similarly each time if the same cards are always being tutored for. I tend to start on the low side in terms of tutor count and add them in if i am disappointed in the consistency of the deck.
EMN Spoilers:
Succumb to Temptation: could find it's way into the deck as yet another card draw. Blood Mist: Not too sure how i feel about this card yet. On one hand, gaining double strike is a pretty powerful effect, especially so on Rakdos and a couple other demons. On the other hand, 4 mana for a single creature gaining double strike each turn may not be all that mana efficient. It's also an enchantment that might likely be sacced sooner or later. Shred of Sanity: Pretty cool instant/sorcery recursion effect. Hanweir Battlements: Hasety land? Awesome. No colored mana? Sadface.
I'll update the decklist on my next round of changes to the deck. I've got a few cuts and additions in mind.
Like the deck. Working on assembling something similar.
For combos involving Doomsday and Final Fortune cast off of Hellcarver Demon - such as the "Demon Rush" one mentioned in the OP - how do you use the extra turn if you have no cards left to draw? Does it require Necropotence to be in play or is there some other work around?
in terms of burst mana-production, just curious what your thoughts on Treasonous Ogre have been. see my playgroup uses a 30 life rule instead of 40, but the ogre can still help suddenly go from early-mid game to huge burst of mana game over. its no channel, but when its been good, its been really good. kinda like a 4-mana ritual? sort of?
That is a VERY interesting suggestion. I'll definitely add it to my list and will get back to you with the results. If there's one thing I noticed is that while cards like Mana Vault and Mana Crypt are incredibly powerful, this deck is very color intensive. So much so that I have removed both form my list. The Ogre is most definitely worth testing.
Very happy to see that this thread has been updated. I'm currently tweaking my list and will be piloting the deck again tomorrow in a 4-player pod. Unfortunately, I don't yet own Lich which is my go-to Doomsday stack combo in online play so I'm a bit worried about how well the deck will perform without it's strongest win condition. Then again, it will be interesting to see how I will manage without the combo.
In my current version, I have significantly lowered my curve and have added red's excellent assortment of graveyard recursion spells including the awesome Shreds of Sanity. For as little as three mana, it allows us to retrieve combo pieces, reanimation spells, mana generators, in addition to pitching a fatty which we can then reanimate on the spot. It does a great job supplementing cards like Past in Flames and Recoup and I recommend running all three. I find myself aggressively cycling cards while sculpting the perfect hand and, with the deck's ability to retrieve and re-craft from the grave, I'm even considering Goblin Lore.
I also wanted to mention Mindwrack Demon as another cheap demon that fills the yard with reanimation targets when it comes into play. It's downside is negligible and on-theme. What more can we ask for? I've also added Desecration Demon back into the deck along with Abyssal Persecutor. These are all great four drops and we should be running all of them helps us keep the curve as low as possible considering the general high cost of demons. Also, Heartless Summoning is worth testing in here.
Also wanted to second comments on Infernal Contract and company. These have been by far some of the most important spells in the deck and I have found myself playing turn 1 Dark Ritual into Pain's Reward on more than one occasion, bidding between 10 and 25 life, without blinking an eye: Discarding a fatty on turn 1 and reanimating it turn 2 is sick. The explosive card draw is worth every single drop of blood since the deck is filled with powerful effects that will greatly benefit you the faster you can play them.
I have kept Exsanguinate as my mana bomb finisher and unfortunately Pox has been cut. Again, it just pissed the table off and doesn't win me the game on the spot - the deck doesn't run many creatures or sweepers to defend itself against a post-Pox table and there will always be a post-Pox table. I could see how powerful it is in 1v1 play where your opponent may not be able to recover from its crippling effects, but having to defend against the wrath of 3+ other players is not where you want to be with a deck light on creatures and virtually no mass removal.
I know I'm kinda new to the party, but I'd love to get on this Rakdos bandwagon. This deck looks incredibly fun.
Have you all considered running Plunge Into Darkness for its incredible second mode?
i think plunge into darkness' second mode looks good, but its probably not going to be that effective. for 2 mana, wouldn't you rather just have a demonic tutor/vampiric tutor/imperial seal?
my build isn't exactly the same as OP's, but i can tell you that from the experience from my build, i'd much rather have card quantity than card quality. i dont use any tutoring effects outside of lands, and quite a lot of wheel/life-for-cards effects, simply because all the cards in the deck are good, and i usually can cast most of them pretty quickly and burn through my hand regardless.
if i were you, i'd test it out to see how it goes.. maybe im wrong, and my theorycrafting is completely off! you never know in EDH till you give it a go
1) It's an instant, so you can throw it down in response to a problem or at the end of a turn to get the card you need with a little more knowledge and surprise factor.
2) It's a sacrifice outlet, so it's lets you do something like eat your board for 15 life and then play Living Death to take back the board advantage.
3) It's an instant speed sac outlet. Somebody plays a wrath? Get some value. Somebody kicks Rite of Replication at your Rune-scarred Demon? Counter that play. Instant speed sacrifice is huge and should not be underestimated.
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
I came here to say thanks for maintaining this very cool primer. More edh players should try playing this style of deck. I've been playing slightly less crazy builds meant for multiplayer, commanded by first Lord of Riots and now Tsabo Tavoc.
Treasonous Ogre is fantastic. In the past, I've used him to cast turn 2 Myojin of Infinite Rage and other unfair plays. The 2/3 dethrone body is actually a reasonable threat, too.
Heartless Summoning has been a pet card of mine for a long time, and this deck finally seems like a good fit for it. It's a good plan B if you're battling against grave hate.
Greier Reach Sanitarium has been a nice discard outlet for me. I see that you've run Rich Maadi in the past, have you considered the upgraded version?
Thanks for the great primer!
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Currently Playing...
Modern: Kiki ChordWBRG
TokensWB
EDH: Kuon, Ogre AscendantBBB
I also really like Plunge into Darkness here as both modes are live in this deck. Some other cards I've been playing with: Lion's Eye Diamond - with the number of draw spells/tutors in the deck this has been really strong. I've also liked Infernal Tutor to go with it.
Cathartic Reunion has been great for me, I think it's much better than cards like Night's Whisper or Read the Bones in this deck. I have been playing with Painful Truths as well. The consistency of hitting three colors (requiring something like Mox Diamond or a rainbow land) leaves something to be desired but drawing 3 for 3 makes up for it. If I don't have the mana it's easy to pitch to one of the looting spells.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance may not be completely in line theme-wise with the deck but I think her abilities are really good here. The mana is very useful, we often like to play out our hands/win via combat damage so the draw ability is good here too and her ultimate wins the game in short order.
Rakdos Augermage is one of my favorite cards, but I've found it to be pretty decent in this deck. Thoughtseizing your opponents repeatedly is quite effective and this deck is better than many at playing hellbent. It also plays very well with dropping a beater by providing some pseudo-protection. And it hits lands!
With the heavy black/swamp commitment wouldn't both Bubbling Buck as another ramp spell (or replacing Rain of Filth) and Nythkos, Shrine to Nyx be good here?
Lastly Squee, Goblin Nabob has been quite good for me through its synergy with loot/wheel effects. It also plays nicely with Victimize.
I hope the thread is not dead, there's plenty of new stuff to discover
Do you have any ideas concerning cards from the newest sets?
I am very happy with the deck so far, both in multiplayer and 1v1 games. My playgroup says that I should never break the deck apart.
One of the most explosive plays:
T1: Blood Crypt, Faithless Looting (discard Master of Cruelties)
T2: Lake of the Dead, Shallow Grave - opponent's team on 1 life
T3: Swamp, Death Cloud for 1 ;p
The most ridiculous turns happens when Hellcarver Demon hits - f.eg. World at War, Savage Beating, Doomsday. Next combat Lich and Repay in Kind - obvious
The most important thing is that I do not give a darn if I loose. The deck usually sheds so much blood that winning is not necessary, haha. Many many times I won even though I paid 25-30 out of 40 life (2hg) for Pain's Reward or other Draw Spells on turn 3 to just draw 4 cards. Both opponents and my teammate said: dude, you are crazy.
It is funny that even though they know the deck already, they never know what is going to happen next, for the deck is so crazy-chaotic.
For temporal financial reasons, I am not using Necropotence and Sneak Attack.
Other cards that I am considering to cut are:
Liliana of the Veil - does not provide instant and visible profits imo. Maybe because I could never chain her with other spells into anyexplosive plays.
Songs of the Damned - used it only once. I never want games to last this long so it provides enough value, replaced it with Cabal Ritual.
Replaced Cruel Bargain with Syphon Mind (financial reasons)
Maybeboard:
Shreds of Sanity - excellent addition imo.
Thinking of Temporal Extortion, but I am not sure if it sticks to the theme.
I enjoy my rakdos build greatly. In my original build I heavily tested necropotence and sneak attack. Both tested quite poorly. You aren't missing anything by not running them. I wouldn't remove songs of the damned. That card has won me so many games.
Update after close to 10 months. Havent quite had the luxury to indulge in mtg recently. There are quite alot of cuts i'm looking to replace but havent found too many replacements as of yet. Let's get on with it.
Cards on the cutting board - Liliana of the Veil: Like Spiritmonger has mentioned, it dosent have sufficient impact when it is played, and the main reason it was added to the deck was the ultimate, which to date i've not managed to pull off. Past in Flames: I gave it a fair shake. Overall it feels too clunky considering it's at least 4 mana upfront before you actually pay even more to cast what you wanted to. I feel that Mizzix Mastery is the superior replacement to Past in Flames for the deck and only one of them is needed. Read the Bones/Sign in Blood: While i still like the cards, i would like to try replacing them with the red looters like Cathartic Reunion and Tormenting Voice to see if it synergizes more with rez effects.
The rest of the cards are pretty much Demons which i feel are underperforming in the deck. Not sure if i should pull back from the demon tribal abit or otherwise.
Ob Nixilis, Unshackled
Phyrexian Obliterator
Defiler of Souls
Archfiend of Depravity
Kothoped, Soul Hoarder: It's always either too much or too little.
Reaper from the Abyss
That said, not all the cards are going to be cut right away, and there havent been much from the newer sets that have grasped my interests.
i have a somewhat less effective version of your deck, and after a total of 7 or 8 games, i finally won one on the back of 3 demons, treasonous ogre (whittling my life down to 2), repay in kind and countering an opposing fog effect with final fortune.
man, i hate fog effects while playing this deck.
in field testing, it seems like demonic consultation, rain of filth and treasonous ogre are absolute allstars in the deck. i think every time i had any of them, i was within a turn of killing the table out of nowhere.
I'm thinking of axing songs of the damned. it normally adds b or bb, but usually not more than that. maybe i need more loot effects.
aside from tormenting voice, faithless looting and cathartic reunion, are there any other good loot effects?
Edit: any thoughts on rakdos charm? i get that this is the sort of aggro deck that doesn't need/want removal in the likes of terminate, but at least 2 of the 3 modes are awesome. can't get through a token deck? an opposing spore frog/Meren of Clan Nel Toth recursion soft-lock? an akroma's memorial? rakdos charm! i don't have it in my build, but the more i think about it, the more it feels like this deck really needs it. I'm not sure if it's "on theme", but it sure does win games out of nowhere... and that's a theme that's been really prevalent here!
Been following this thread for a while (...years), and I have converted my own Rakdos, the Defiler deck over to be much closer to this one over time. Here's my current list:
0) Consistency
Obviously this deck is very boom/bust to its very bones. However, I have found that can be really bumpy at times. Sometimes I explode onto the board and win with crazy stuff, other times I sit around with 4 lands, no acceleration, and nothing to cast for turns and turns. What's the best way to help smooth this out? I assume more cards like fathless looting and perhaps more draw power would be key - how are people finding similar cards such as cathartic reunion? What is a good number of draw smoothing cards to shoot for? As of now I'm thinking about putting a few more in and trying it out.
1) Best doomsday/hellcarver stack on a clean slate without using Lich?
There are obviously a lot of stacks that work for both hellcarver and doomsday in different situations. I would like access to a reliable 5 card stack that can win off doomsday without any other setup, and without using Lich. I don't like Lich in this list since it seems so dead outside of combo stacks, and I want to avoid that (also it's expensive). Right now the closest I have is Pain's Reward, rain of filth,(other random ritual), Repay in Kind, wound reflection. This is just too much mana (18) to produce with a few lands and 2 rituals. wound reflection can be replaced by cheaper single target options to finish someone off like sign in blood if there are fewer opponents needing to be finished. Obviously these stacks get a lot easier if I have access to hellcarver demon as well, since then I don't have to pay.
So, any thoughts on a good go-to doomsday stack on an empty board that doesn't involve lich?
2) I feel like I could use more graveyard fillers like faithless looting in this list. I find that IGG and living death and songs of the damned and other reanimation spells are very strong and lead to a lot of the burst action that is so great with this deck, and having access to a larger graveyard would be nice. What are people using to ensure they have a nice GY? This topic is connected to #0.
3) Hatred - I'm really excited to nab some people with this guy, anyone have experience with it? Does it work well in a deck like this?
4) red mana. I have 16 sources of red (counting Nykthos and treasonous ogre), and I'm a little concerened about having access to 2 red for the key cards that require it. Any thoughts/experience on this? I usually reference Frank Karsten's article here:
when it comes to determining colored mana sources, and he says I should be shooting for 33 (!!!) red sources to have 2 red by turn 6. That just isn't possible while maintaining a high Swamp count for Lake of the dead and Bubbling Muck. Any insights on the right balance here? I removed Cabal Coffers and Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth because like others on this thread found I usually don't have enough lands in play for them to be worth it.
5) Haste enablers, how worth it, what numbers?
Right now I'm just using flamekin village and hall of the bandit lord because they have very low inclusion cost as lands and they are one sided for me. How worth it are the mass haste enablers? I'm looking at fervor and mass hysteria and anger primarily, but also thinking about lightning greaves or dragon tempest. I find that haste is really great in this deck, but I don't like diluting my action too much with cards that are just haste enablers. What's the consensus on the right balance here?
6) Death Wish?
Card seems really cool, is it worth dealing with a sideboard? (I lean towards no)
Finally, I know that a lot of these questions are things that are best answered by just playtesting and seeing how things feel. Unfortunately I don't get the opportunity to play very often, so my ability to do that is limited. This is why I'm coming to the forum to ask for others' experience. I understand if some of my questions are not answerable without just playing it out with my particular list, but I appreciate any contribution from your personal experiences that might help!
Also, I recognize I listed a lot of stuff to talk about, I don't expect all of my questions to be addressed, it's just a comprehensive list of the things I am dealing with for the deck.
And finally, thank you to everyone who has contributed to this thread, especially its creator, for all of the help you have given to my Rakdos deck over the years!!
My point of view:
0) Drawing cards is crucial for this deck IMO. More draws = more lands, more crazy stuff, especially that we are also losing permanentnts because of Rakdos. I'm going to test Cathartic Reunion and Tormenting Voice for sure. Those two are also grave fillers for further reanimation spells. Gotta test them out.
1) As it comes to Lich, it is a dead card indeed if you draw it somewhere during the match. Many, many times I have killed opponents by Lich//Repay in Kind combo, either from Doomsday or Insidious Dreams, but it's a bit sad when we loose Lich at some point (exile). For Doomsday five alone, depending on the boardstate, my picks would be:
*Few flying fatties on the battlefield:
1- draw engine (Cruel Bargain f.eg.)
2- World at War/Savage Beating
3- mana acceleration (like Mana Geyser, Burnt Offering) to be able to cast other cards
4- Final Fortune
5- any finisher: Whatever is left from pt no. 2, Wound Reflecrion,
Be creative ;p
For Hellcarver it looks similar. You can stack the cards so you can buy Rakdos (mana accel.) plus additional combats/turns and kill at least two players by commander dmg. In case of big grave, just Fervor and Living Death them to death. Never be worry to attack with your big stuff. It is always worth trying!
Comboing without Lich is a bit difficult with the cards we have in the deck. You spoke about Treasonous Ogre. You could use him to loose as much life as you can, then Repay in Kind into Wound Reflection? Dunno. Maybe some player dmg spell is needed here. Sizzle? (You may go as low as 1-3 life points with Ogre anyways) Haha! We gotta figure out something!
2) Reanimation in this deck is OP. My playgroup already knows that, so most of the time I'm the first one loosing his graveyard, even having only 2-4 cards in it (Hellcarver or It That Betrays is enough). Anyways, Draw/Discard spells are awesome, as is reanimation, but what to cut from the deck to find some room?
3) Hatered... Hatered... I love this spell. "Ye, He has 12power demons on board, I have 26 life, I should be fine".. and then, out of nowhere... Boom! Headshot!
I think Hatered might be actuall cool with Rakdos... Dying to 1 attack seems nice, also if you have enough mana to play additional combat spell, you may actually kill two opponents during one turn. Not bad at all!
4) I think cutting Urborg was a mistake. It is always nice to have. Btw you mentioned, that high swamp count is crucial for Bubbling Muck and Lake. On the other hand you use lands like Haunted Fengraf, Terminal Moraine and Warped Landscape, which, in my opinion (no offence ) are all terrible choices for such a colored-mana-hungry deck. As for me Urborg has to be in! Anyways, the problem of red mana is also bothering me from time to time. The only way I see is to put all dual land possible. I'd go for Canyon Slough and Badlands (can't see them on your list), and any other, scry land, checklands maybe, even uncommon taplands! For me, reliable manabase is much more important than returning random creature from a graveyard, or playing a land, than pay 2 mana, sac the land and fetch a basic. This is just my suggestion
5) I reckon that 5 haste enablers (Fervor, Hall, Flamekin V., Hysteria and Anger) is enough. I mostly treat them as surprises. One mana for "all gain haste" then Living Death? I'm in!
Turn 1 Blood Crypt, Turn 2 Swamp, Faithless Looting (discarding Anger and Master of Cruelties) into Reanimate? A bit OP I suppose.
I would use more haste enablers If I had more creatures in the deck, but that's just my feeling.
6) Death Wish is a really cool card. It depends on your playgroup if they accept Wishes. It is just a tutor, but allows you to carry with you the whole arsenal against your opponents. My playgroup does not allow Wishes so far, so I can't say much about them.
7) From the cards you have listed I would pick:
+ Crypt Ghast (good card, if not a mana doubler than surely a lightning rod for removal. Letting this to stay alive in this deck is risky)
+ Balthor (nice to have your team back to your hand). Have to test it though.
+ Mindslicer (top deck game is always nice cuz its not nice for opponents the clock is ticking with Rakdos on board). Wouldnt expect too much though.
+ Firebombers... Hmm, If you'd be able to play the Bombers then connect with Rakdos? Sounds like fun, we do not care anyways, do we? ];-> some cheap reanimation or Burnt Offering/Sacrifice later on would be sooo nice. I think I is worth giving a try on this one!
the way how i see it, if keldon firebombers nukes a bunch of lands, most other decks have already puked half their deck out, and its become quite difficult to win as is. I'm not sure if it passes the rakdos test. if i had more time, i'd give it a test though, but my suspicions are that it's too little too late by then.
crypt ghast is also gonna be a 4-mana do-nothing. its too slow/expensive when you need its effect, and just a win-more when its already out. not a believer, but am willing to be wrong. I'm more certain that its not going to work in this deck than the firebombers though.
and with mr balthor, i'm sort of thinking i left it off my list for a reason, though I'm not sure what that reason actually was in the first place. maybe he deserves another look. maybe i thought he didn't fit the demonic theme well enough. Maybe i think a 7-mana recursion effect isn't worth it (and bear in mind it doesn't help it that betrays)
mindslicer is definitely intriguing though. i'd say by far the most glaring exclusion that deserves a place. I've also found that my list is a tad too creature-light, and this could be be a fix for it. a 4-mana hand disruption effect or counter spell-magnet seems like a good idea.
Also, i've no idea why hatred isn't in my list. seems promising, though i'd wager in my build, it'd be too ineffective, as i have way too many life-loss effects as is. but we'll see.
had a game day a short while ago, and it was disastrous... i run a 36 land deck, and mulled to 5 with 1 land in hand, then spent the whole game with the 1 land in play. didn't find a demonic consultation, vampiric tutor, sol ring, mana vault.. not a single other land, not even a ritual!
then second game, i managed to demonic consultation naming sol ring, then exiled it in the top 6. Insta-suicide turn 2.
Then on a third game, i was actually quite close to winning, by stealing my opponent's dinosaur general, but fell short by like 10 life.
I'm really bad at playing this deck, but its seriously hilarious to play. my opponents loved watching it struggle to keep up with the table, and then suddenly turn the table and become the scariest dude on the table. its one of those musket decks.. takes forever to reload, but once i get it cocked, its ultra-deadly.
In my opinion, you were just unlucky and kept a bad hand.
Secondly, whole fun playing this deck is high risk high reward plan, risking the consultation with a demon, and he tricks you sometimes , sacrificing half of your lifetotal to draw four drawing either four lands or a combo piece, that's the way it goes.
A week ago I played a ffa game vs Vona, Omnath, Locus of Mana and that new artifact dragon. My opponents went wide, sparing my life, attacking each other more than me, I barely had anything on board because one of my friends knew the deck, and was destroying mine manarocks and Vindicating lands all the time. Then after waiting for the right moment of my opponents tapping out, I played Hellcarver with haste by playing Bubbling Muck! This card is soooo good in the deck. Hellcarver connected and holy shoot: additional combat, Cruel Bargain, Cabal Ritual, Insidious Dreams and some lands. I just could not find the way to get my life low enough to kill all my opponents with Repay in Kind. Lich and Pains Reward (I bid 18 life with it) were already in my graveyard. Was also thinking of how to kill everyone with another combat and Death Cloud, Pox or smth. I managed to get my opps to 4 life or so, and omnath player won just after that.
Bubbling Muck is perfect to this deck.
Have to think of some other wincons though.
by the way, how has death cloud been for you? it's been so-so for me... i usually have the highest quality of stuff on the board, and my opponents usually have a lot of extra lands lying about.
I truly hope the thread is not dead yet!
I have built few other cEDH decks recently and now my mind is free and wallet is empty, so I'm back to
building the Defiler! I have not played the deck for quite a long time, sadly. Time to make it up!
Death Cloud has been so-so for me, but I won few times because of the card. I was thinking of swapping it for Crucible of Worlds, or any other card.
Maybe you are right about the lack of lifegain, @shweinefett. Gray Merchant of Asphodel and reanimating him one or two times should do the job. You may also try Whip of Erebos. It may work. I do not think there is a spell sufficient enough to heal us up after paying half of lifetotal or so. But any card impactful enough to be included is kindly welcome. Any ideas?
Second of all, (I think I mentioned that before) I am concerned about the "only" way of killing opponents in this deck (Lich+Repay in Kind). I feel the deck needs something else. The "Ritual into big scary Demon" plan is not always good enough, even though it is fast. Creatures are dying. Opponents are ramping, playing powerhouses, our creatures are almost always 2for1 when killed. Can you think of any other way of killing opponents, or insta-kill them? Some plan that will be "consistent enough" to incorporate it into the deck as a plan B not destroying the whole idea of the deck (I know that "consistent" sounds funny here, but.. )
Can you think of some newly released cards to add to the deck??
Doom Whisperer from GRN?
i think actually, most likely, in a multiplayer table, they are probably better. probably the same amount of card draw, without the drawback, and with disruption against your opponents is epic. but as i understand it, this is supposed to be a 1v1 list?
by the way, i recently got creamed by a deck called 'spanish inquisition'. its a legacy deck thats like belcher, but uses infernal contract and cruel bargain to kinda 'go off' again after their first one fizzles. those 2 cards are seriously good in a 1v1 setting!
any updates on the list/observations?
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
Syphon Mind and Ambition's Cost are perfectly reasonable alternates to Cruel Bargain and Infernal Contract. My reasoning for using the cards are based on mana efficiency and psychology.
Before elaborating, i currently feel that the amount of card draw in the deck is already at a solid place, and justifications could be made to replace any of them for other effects.
On the note of mana efficiency, being able to draw 4 cards for 3 mana is much more powerful than drawing 3 for 4 mana. Using mana efficient cards open up future turns or frees up mana to be used elsewhere. 3 mana is easier to fit into a turn while playing other spells as well.
Next there is psychology and theme. Players tend to treat someone who is willing to lose 20 life to draw 4 cards, just cause as anything but a threat. They pretty much forum assumptions that you are playing a joke deck or that you'll end up killing yourself without their involvement etc. This form of play sucks them into playing at your pace. You can read through some of the gamelogs in the thread for examples of how this can lead your opponent into playing on tilt and making grave mistakes.
TLDR, they are not THAT more important, but there are significant reasons why the cards are given a spot in the deck.
Command Beacon: I've not though of this. Could potentially help to up the handcount on turn 1/2 to get a discard trigger->reanimation. Late game it could help recast the commander after one too many deaths. I'm not sure if there is any wiggle room to add a colorless land to the deck, but if there is it could potentially work out well. I'll be trying it out soon, thanks.
The deck is made for multiplayer, but most of my play sessions do happen in 1v1 settings. Syphon has an upside and a downside depending on the number of players at the table.
Not sure what you were trying to say about the spanish inquisition deck. Were you unable to prevent it from comboing off for some reason?
Norin the Wary (BRB) R
Blind Seer (Hose Everything) U
Mishra, Artificer Prodigy (Double Dipping) UBR
Borborygmos Enraged (Crush Mountains, Eat Forests) GR
Kresh the Bloodbraided (Get Wild) GRB
Derevi, Empyrial Tactician (Test Your Math) WUR
Toshiro Umezawa (Instant Reanimation) B
Dralnu, Lich Lord (Mill then Will) UB
Rakdos the Defiler (Death at any Cost) BR
Iwamori of the Open Fist (Wheel and Deal) G
Crovax, Ascendant Hero (Balancing Eggs) W
yea i mean i could stifle the storm when they try to go off, and normally with TES, belcher et al, they're pretty much toast, right, but with spanish inquisition, they just draw for the turn, then draw 4, then go off, again. its not like most decks have the capability to be able to stop another going off moment, or at least no one ever expects a second going off so soon after the first go.. which is why its called spanish inquisition!
i follow this thread quite a bit, and because of the number of 1v1 games, i just assumed that it was a 1v1 list. but obviously, if i'd have read thoroughly, i'd have known that it was a multiplayer list!
back to siphon mind, i'd say if you were playing in a 4 player or more game, there might be a place for it, not just 'cuz it draws you cards, but because it disrupts your opponents as well. having said that, letting them choose which cards to keep basically means you're not always disrupting them, and when players start getting knocked out of the game/late game, it really wouldn't be pulling its weight.
also, if you're looking for more haste enablers after anger and mass hysteria, Urabrask the Hidden might be on the top-end heavy, but hes a body AND slows your opponents down (and stops them from flashing in blockers). not sure if he'd be too slow for ya, but i at least think hes usually quite underrated for what he does.
in terms of burst mana-production, just curious what your thoughts on Treasonous Ogre have been. see my playgroup uses a 30 life rule instead of 40, but the ogre can still help suddenly go from early-mid game to huge burst of mana game over. its no channel, but when its been good, its been really good. kinda like a 4-mana ritual? sort of?
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
@Silenciaco, you said that you are dropping Necropotence from the list (it's still there though). I have been thinking to include Disciple of Bolas to sacrifice reanimated demon. This will allow putting it into a grave instead of exiling it. What about more reanimation? Maybe we could squeeze in Necromancy or Animate Dead? You said you included them, but I can't see them on the list.
Maybe we could add a copy of Vampiric Tutor since the deck relies hardly on combo/explosive plays. EOT tutor would surely ease putting all the pieces of the puzzle together.
Looks like i edited the changelog on the OP, but forgot to change the decklist itself. Thanks for the headsup. Tutors can always be added into the deck for additional consistency. They also tend to make games play out similarly each time if the same cards are always being tutored for. I tend to start on the low side in terms of tutor count and add them in if i am disappointed in the consistency of the deck.
EMN Spoilers:
Succumb to Temptation: could find it's way into the deck as yet another card draw.
Blood Mist: Not too sure how i feel about this card yet. On one hand, gaining double strike is a pretty powerful effect, especially so on Rakdos and a couple other demons. On the other hand, 4 mana for a single creature gaining double strike each turn may not be all that mana efficient. It's also an enchantment that might likely be sacced sooner or later.
Shred of Sanity: Pretty cool instant/sorcery recursion effect.
Hanweir Battlements: Hasety land? Awesome. No colored mana? Sadface.
I'll update the decklist on my next round of changes to the deck. I've got a few cuts and additions in mind.
Norin the Wary (BRB) R
Blind Seer (Hose Everything) U
Mishra, Artificer Prodigy (Double Dipping) UBR
Borborygmos Enraged (Crush Mountains, Eat Forests) GR
Kresh the Bloodbraided (Get Wild) GRB
Derevi, Empyrial Tactician (Test Your Math) WUR
Toshiro Umezawa (Instant Reanimation) B
Dralnu, Lich Lord (Mill then Will) UB
Rakdos the Defiler (Death at any Cost) BR
Iwamori of the Open Fist (Wheel and Deal) G
Crovax, Ascendant Hero (Balancing Eggs) W
For combos involving Doomsday and Final Fortune cast off of Hellcarver Demon - such as the "Demon Rush" one mentioned in the OP - how do you use the extra turn if you have no cards left to draw? Does it require Necropotence to be in play or is there some other work around?
That is a VERY interesting suggestion. I'll definitely add it to my list and will get back to you with the results. If there's one thing I noticed is that while cards like Mana Vault and Mana Crypt are incredibly powerful, this deck is very color intensive. So much so that I have removed both form my list. The Ogre is most definitely worth testing.
Very happy to see that this thread has been updated. I'm currently tweaking my list and will be piloting the deck again tomorrow in a 4-player pod. Unfortunately, I don't yet own Lich which is my go-to Doomsday stack combo in online play so I'm a bit worried about how well the deck will perform without it's strongest win condition. Then again, it will be interesting to see how I will manage without the combo.
In my current version, I have significantly lowered my curve and have added red's excellent assortment of graveyard recursion spells including the awesome Shreds of Sanity. For as little as three mana, it allows us to retrieve combo pieces, reanimation spells, mana generators, in addition to pitching a fatty which we can then reanimate on the spot. It does a great job supplementing cards like Past in Flames and Recoup and I recommend running all three. I find myself aggressively cycling cards while sculpting the perfect hand and, with the deck's ability to retrieve and re-craft from the grave, I'm even considering Goblin Lore.
I also wanted to mention Mindwrack Demon as another cheap demon that fills the yard with reanimation targets when it comes into play. It's downside is negligible and on-theme. What more can we ask for? I've also added Desecration Demon back into the deck along with Abyssal Persecutor. These are all great four drops and we should be running all of them helps us keep the curve as low as possible considering the general high cost of demons. Also, Heartless Summoning is worth testing in here.
I've had players scoop to Omen of Fire.
Also wanted to second comments on Infernal Contract and company. These have been by far some of the most important spells in the deck and I have found myself playing turn 1 Dark Ritual into Pain's Reward on more than one occasion, bidding between 10 and 25 life, without blinking an eye: Discarding a fatty on turn 1 and reanimating it turn 2 is sick. The explosive card draw is worth every single drop of blood since the deck is filled with powerful effects that will greatly benefit you the faster you can play them.
I have kept Exsanguinate as my mana bomb finisher and unfortunately Pox has been cut. Again, it just pissed the table off and doesn't win me the game on the spot - the deck doesn't run many creatures or sweepers to defend itself against a post-Pox table and there will always be a post-Pox table. I could see how powerful it is in 1v1 play where your opponent may not be able to recover from its crippling effects, but having to defend against the wrath of 3+ other players is not where you want to be with a deck light on creatures and virtually no mass removal.
With that in mind, thoughts on Mob Rule as a cheaper Insurrection?
Have you all considered running Plunge Into Darkness for its incredible second mode?
my build isn't exactly the same as OP's, but i can tell you that from the experience from my build, i'd much rather have card quantity than card quality. i dont use any tutoring effects outside of lands, and quite a lot of wheel/life-for-cards effects, simply because all the cards in the deck are good, and i usually can cast most of them pretty quickly and burn through my hand regardless.
if i were you, i'd test it out to see how it goes.. maybe im wrong, and my theorycrafting is completely off! you never know in EDH till you give it a go
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
1) It's an instant, so you can throw it down in response to a problem or at the end of a turn to get the card you need with a little more knowledge and surprise factor.
2) It's a sacrifice outlet, so it's lets you do something like eat your board for 15 life and then play Living Death to take back the board advantage.
3) It's an instant speed sac outlet. Somebody plays a wrath? Get some value. Somebody kicks Rite of Replication at your Rune-scarred Demon? Counter that play. Instant speed sacrifice is huge and should not be underestimated.
Treasonous Ogre is fantastic. In the past, I've used him to cast turn 2 Myojin of Infinite Rage and other unfair plays. The 2/3 dethrone body is actually a reasonable threat, too.
Demonic Collusion is ideal for setting up a big Living Death.
Heartless Summoning has been a pet card of mine for a long time, and this deck finally seems like a good fit for it. It's a good plan B if you're battling against grave hate.
Greier Reach Sanitarium has been a nice discard outlet for me. I see that you've run Rich Maadi in the past, have you considered the upgraded version?
Thanks for the great primer!
Modern: Kiki ChordWBRG
TokensWB
EDH: Kuon, Ogre AscendantBBB
#FreeContractfromBelow
Lion's Eye Diamond - with the number of draw spells/tutors in the deck this has been really strong. I've also liked Infernal Tutor to go with it.
Cathartic Reunion has been great for me, I think it's much better than cards like Night's Whisper or Read the Bones in this deck. I have been playing with Painful Truths as well. The consistency of hitting three colors (requiring something like Mox Diamond or a rainbow land) leaves something to be desired but drawing 3 for 3 makes up for it. If I don't have the mana it's easy to pitch to one of the looting spells.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance may not be completely in line theme-wise with the deck but I think her abilities are really good here. The mana is very useful, we often like to play out our hands/win via combat damage so the draw ability is good here too and her ultimate wins the game in short order.
Rakdos Augermage is one of my favorite cards, but I've found it to be pretty decent in this deck. Thoughtseizing your opponents repeatedly is quite effective and this deck is better than many at playing hellbent. It also plays very well with dropping a beater by providing some pseudo-protection. And it hits lands!
With the heavy black/swamp commitment wouldn't both Bubbling Buck as another ramp spell (or replacing Rain of Filth) and Nythkos, Shrine to Nyx be good here?
Lastly Squee, Goblin Nabob has been quite good for me through its synergy with loot/wheel effects. It also plays nicely with Victimize.
BRWC Mardu Shops - Tymna and Akiri Artifacts BRWC
Do you have any ideas concerning cards from the newest sets?
I am very happy with the deck so far, both in multiplayer and 1v1 games. My playgroup says that I should never break the deck apart.
One of the most explosive plays:
T1: Blood Crypt, Faithless Looting (discard Master of Cruelties)
T2: Lake of the Dead, Shallow Grave - opponent's team on 1 life
T3: Swamp, Death Cloud for 1 ;p
The most ridiculous turns happens when Hellcarver Demon hits - f.eg. World at War, Savage Beating, Doomsday. Next combat Lich and Repay in Kind - obvious
The most important thing is that I do not give a darn if I loose. The deck usually sheds so much blood that winning is not necessary, haha. Many many times I won even though I paid 25-30 out of 40 life (2hg) for Pain's Reward or other Draw Spells on turn 3 to just draw 4 cards. Both opponents and my teammate said: dude, you are crazy.
It is funny that even though they know the deck already, they never know what is going to happen next, for the deck is so crazy-chaotic.
For temporal financial reasons, I am not using Necropotence and Sneak Attack.
Other cards that I am considering to cut are:
Liliana of the Veil - does not provide instant and visible profits imo. Maybe because I could never chain her with other spells into anyexplosive plays.
Songs of the Damned - used it only once. I never want games to last this long so it provides enough value, replaced it with Cabal Ritual.
Replaced Cruel Bargain with Syphon Mind (financial reasons)
Maybeboard:
Shreds of Sanity - excellent addition imo.
Thinking of Temporal Extortion, but I am not sure if it sticks to the theme.
Regards!!!
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
Cards on the cutting board -
Liliana of the Veil: Like Spiritmonger has mentioned, it dosent have sufficient impact when it is played, and the main reason it was added to the deck was the ultimate, which to date i've not managed to pull off.
Past in Flames: I gave it a fair shake. Overall it feels too clunky considering it's at least 4 mana upfront before you actually pay even more to cast what you wanted to. I feel that Mizzix Mastery is the superior replacement to Past in Flames for the deck and only one of them is needed.
Read the Bones/Sign in Blood: While i still like the cards, i would like to try replacing them with the red looters like Cathartic Reunion and Tormenting Voice to see if it synergizes more with rez effects.
The rest of the cards are pretty much Demons which i feel are underperforming in the deck. Not sure if i should pull back from the demon tribal abit or otherwise.
Ob Nixilis, Unshackled
Phyrexian Obliterator
Defiler of Souls
Archfiend of Depravity
Kothoped, Soul Hoarder: It's always either too much or too little.
Reaper from the Abyss
That said, not all the cards are going to be cut right away, and there havent been much from the newer sets that have grasped my interests.
Changelog:
-Liliana of the Veil +Geier Reach Sanitarium
-Read the Bones + Cathartic Reunion
-Sign in Blood + Tormenting Voice
-Past in Flames + Razaketh, the Foulblooded
-Sneak Attack + Torment of Hailfire
Let me know if i missed out anything. I'll update the OP sometime tomorrow.
Norin the Wary (BRB) R
Blind Seer (Hose Everything) U
Mishra, Artificer Prodigy (Double Dipping) UBR
Borborygmos Enraged (Crush Mountains, Eat Forests) GR
Kresh the Bloodbraided (Get Wild) GRB
Derevi, Empyrial Tactician (Test Your Math) WUR
Toshiro Umezawa (Instant Reanimation) B
Dralnu, Lich Lord (Mill then Will) UB
Rakdos the Defiler (Death at any Cost) BR
Iwamori of the Open Fist (Wheel and Deal) G
Crovax, Ascendant Hero (Balancing Eggs) W
man, i hate fog effects while playing this deck.
in field testing, it seems like demonic consultation, rain of filth and treasonous ogre are absolute allstars in the deck. i think every time i had any of them, i was within a turn of killing the table out of nowhere.
I'm thinking of axing songs of the damned. it normally adds b or bb, but usually not more than that. maybe i need more loot effects.
aside from tormenting voice, faithless looting and cathartic reunion, are there any other good loot effects?
Edit: any thoughts on rakdos charm? i get that this is the sort of aggro deck that doesn't need/want removal in the likes of terminate, but at least 2 of the 3 modes are awesome. can't get through a token deck? an opposing spore frog/Meren of Clan Nel Toth recursion soft-lock? an akroma's memorial? rakdos charm! i don't have it in my build, but the more i think about it, the more it feels like this deck really needs it. I'm not sure if it's "on theme", but it sure does win games out of nowhere... and that's a theme that's been really prevalent here!
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
Things I wanted to discuss:
0) Consistency
Obviously this deck is very boom/bust to its very bones. However, I have found that can be really bumpy at times. Sometimes I explode onto the board and win with crazy stuff, other times I sit around with 4 lands, no acceleration, and nothing to cast for turns and turns. What's the best way to help smooth this out? I assume more cards like fathless looting and perhaps more draw power would be key - how are people finding similar cards such as cathartic reunion? What is a good number of draw smoothing cards to shoot for? As of now I'm thinking about putting a few more in and trying it out.
1) Best doomsday/hellcarver stack on a clean slate without using Lich?
There are obviously a lot of stacks that work for both hellcarver and doomsday in different situations. I would like access to a reliable 5 card stack that can win off doomsday without any other setup, and without using Lich. I don't like Lich in this list since it seems so dead outside of combo stacks, and I want to avoid that (also it's expensive). Right now the closest I have is Pain's Reward, rain of filth,(other random ritual), Repay in Kind, wound reflection. This is just too much mana (18) to produce with a few lands and 2 rituals. wound reflection can be replaced by cheaper single target options to finish someone off like sign in blood if there are fewer opponents needing to be finished. Obviously these stacks get a lot easier if I have access to hellcarver demon as well, since then I don't have to pay.
So, any thoughts on a good go-to doomsday stack on an empty board that doesn't involve lich?
2) I feel like I could use more graveyard fillers like faithless looting in this list. I find that IGG and living death and songs of the damned and other reanimation spells are very strong and lead to a lot of the burst action that is so great with this deck, and having access to a larger graveyard would be nice. What are people using to ensure they have a nice GY? This topic is connected to #0.
3) Hatred - I'm really excited to nab some people with this guy, anyone have experience with it? Does it work well in a deck like this?
4) red mana. I have 16 sources of red (counting Nykthos and treasonous ogre), and I'm a little concerened about having access to 2 red for the key cards that require it. Any thoughts/experience on this? I usually reference Frank Karsten's article here:
https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/frank-analysis-how-many-colored-mana-sources-do-you-need-to-consistently-cast-your-spells/
when it comes to determining colored mana sources, and he says I should be shooting for 33 (!!!) red sources to have 2 red by turn 6. That just isn't possible while maintaining a high Swamp count for Lake of the dead and Bubbling Muck. Any insights on the right balance here? I removed Cabal Coffers and Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth because like others on this thread found I usually don't have enough lands in play for them to be worth it.
5) Haste enablers, how worth it, what numbers?
Right now I'm just using flamekin village and hall of the bandit lord because they have very low inclusion cost as lands and they are one sided for me. How worth it are the mass haste enablers? I'm looking at fervor and mass hysteria and anger primarily, but also thinking about lightning greaves or dragon tempest. I find that haste is really great in this deck, but I don't like diluting my action too much with cards that are just haste enablers. What's the consensus on the right balance here?
6) Death Wish?
Card seems really cool, is it worth dealing with a sideboard? (I lean towards no)
7) Random list of cards I'm thinking about. Please comment on any experience with these and if they seem promising:
keldon firebombers, balthor the defiled, underworld cerberus, ob nixilis, the fallen, neheb, the eternal, malignus, cryptborn horror, tree of perdition, inverter of truth, mindslicer, soulflayer, overseer of the damned, necrologia, winds of change, crypt ghast.
Finally, I know that a lot of these questions are things that are best answered by just playtesting and seeing how things feel. Unfortunately I don't get the opportunity to play very often, so my ability to do that is limited. This is why I'm coming to the forum to ask for others' experience. I understand if some of my questions are not answerable without just playing it out with my particular list, but I appreciate any contribution from your personal experiences that might help!
Also, I recognize I listed a lot of stuff to talk about, I don't expect all of my questions to be addressed, it's just a comprehensive list of the things I am dealing with for the deck.
And finally, thank you to everyone who has contributed to this thread, especially its creator, for all of the help you have given to my Rakdos deck over the years!!
My point of view:
0) Drawing cards is crucial for this deck IMO. More draws = more lands, more crazy stuff, especially that we are also losing permanentnts because of Rakdos. I'm going to test Cathartic Reunion and Tormenting Voice for sure. Those two are also grave fillers for further reanimation spells. Gotta test them out.
1) As it comes to Lich, it is a dead card indeed if you draw it somewhere during the match. Many, many times I have killed opponents by Lich//Repay in Kind combo, either from Doomsday or Insidious Dreams, but it's a bit sad when we loose Lich at some point (exile). For Doomsday five alone, depending on the boardstate, my picks would be:
*Few flying fatties on the battlefield:
1- draw engine (Cruel Bargain f.eg.)
2- World at War/Savage Beating
3- mana acceleration (like Mana Geyser, Burnt Offering) to be able to cast other cards
4- Final Fortune
5- any finisher: Whatever is left from pt no. 2, Wound Reflecrion,
Be creative ;p
For Hellcarver it looks similar. You can stack the cards so you can buy Rakdos (mana accel.) plus additional combats/turns and kill at least two players by commander dmg. In case of big grave, just Fervor and Living Death them to death. Never be worry to attack with your big stuff. It is always worth trying!
Comboing without Lich is a bit difficult with the cards we have in the deck. You spoke about Treasonous Ogre. You could use him to loose as much life as you can, then Repay in Kind into Wound Reflection? Dunno. Maybe some player dmg spell is needed here. Sizzle? (You may go as low as 1-3 life points with Ogre anyways) Haha! We gotta figure out something!
2) Reanimation in this deck is OP. My playgroup already knows that, so most of the time I'm the first one loosing his graveyard, even having only 2-4 cards in it (Hellcarver or It That Betrays is enough). Anyways, Draw/Discard spells are awesome, as is reanimation, but what to cut from the deck to find some room?
3) Hatered... Hatered... I love this spell. "Ye, He has 12power demons on board, I have 26 life, I should be fine".. and then, out of nowhere... Boom! Headshot!
I think Hatered might be actuall cool with Rakdos... Dying to 1 attack seems nice, also if you have enough mana to play additional combat spell, you may actually kill two opponents during one turn. Not bad at all!
4) I think cutting Urborg was a mistake. It is always nice to have. Btw you mentioned, that high swamp count is crucial for Bubbling Muck and Lake. On the other hand you use lands like Haunted Fengraf, Terminal Moraine and Warped Landscape, which, in my opinion (no offence
5) I reckon that 5 haste enablers (Fervor, Hall, Flamekin V., Hysteria and Anger) is enough. I mostly treat them as surprises. One mana for "all gain haste" then Living Death? I'm in!
Turn 1 Blood Crypt, Turn 2 Swamp, Faithless Looting (discarding Anger and Master of Cruelties) into Reanimate? A bit OP I suppose.
I would use more haste enablers If I had more creatures in the deck, but that's just my feeling.
6) Death Wish is a really cool card. It depends on your playgroup if they accept Wishes. It is just a tutor, but allows you to carry with you the whole arsenal against your opponents. My playgroup does not allow Wishes so far, so I can't say much about them.
7) From the cards you have listed I would pick:
+ Crypt Ghast (good card, if not a mana doubler than surely a lightning rod for removal. Letting this to stay alive in this deck is risky)
+ Balthor (nice to have your team back to your hand). Have to test it though.
+ Mindslicer (top deck game is always nice cuz its not nice for opponents
+ Firebombers... Hmm, If you'd be able to play the Bombers then connect with Rakdos? Sounds like fun, we do not care anyways, do we? ];-> some cheap reanimation or Burnt Offering/Sacrifice later on would be sooo nice. I think I is worth giving a try on this one!
crypt ghast is also gonna be a 4-mana do-nothing. its too slow/expensive when you need its effect, and just a win-more when its already out. not a believer, but am willing to be wrong. I'm more certain that its not going to work in this deck than the firebombers though.
and with mr balthor, i'm sort of thinking i left it off my list for a reason, though I'm not sure what that reason actually was in the first place. maybe he deserves another look. maybe i thought he didn't fit the demonic theme well enough. Maybe i think a 7-mana recursion effect isn't worth it (and bear in mind it doesn't help it that betrays)
mindslicer is definitely intriguing though. i'd say by far the most glaring exclusion that deserves a place. I've also found that my list is a tad too creature-light, and this could be be a fix for it. a 4-mana hand disruption effect or counter spell-magnet seems like a good idea.
Also, i've no idea why hatred isn't in my list. seems promising, though i'd wager in my build, it'd be too ineffective, as i have way too many life-loss effects as is. but we'll see.
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
then second game, i managed to demonic consultation naming sol ring, then exiled it in the top 6. Insta-suicide turn 2.
Then on a third game, i was actually quite close to winning, by stealing my opponent's dinosaur general, but fell short by like 10 life.
I think the closest i got to winning in the game was when i cruel bargain into some rituals and Treasonous Ogre that gave me scourge of the throne, abhorrent overlord, rakdos the defiler and a entwined Savage Beating with anger in the graveyard. i think i went from 40 to like 1 life, and everyone else went from 40 down to single digits. almost killed the table, but then i died due to a tapped trigger on mana vault
I'm really bad at playing this deck, but its seriously hilarious to play. my opponents loved watching it struggle to keep up with the table, and then suddenly turn the table and become the scariest dude on the table. its one of those musket decks.. takes forever to reload, but once i get it cocked, its ultra-deadly.
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
Secondly, whole fun playing this deck is high risk high reward plan, risking the consultation with a demon, and he tricks you sometimes , sacrificing half of your lifetotal to draw four drawing either four lands or a combo piece, that's the way it goes.
A week ago I played a ffa game vs Vona, Omnath, Locus of Mana and that new artifact dragon. My opponents went wide, sparing my life, attacking each other more than me, I barely had anything on board because one of my friends knew the deck, and was destroying mine manarocks and Vindicating lands all the time. Then after waiting for the right moment of my opponents tapping out, I played Hellcarver with haste by playing Bubbling Muck! This card is soooo good in the deck. Hellcarver connected and holy shoot: additional combat, Cruel Bargain, Cabal Ritual, Insidious Dreams and some lands. I just could not find the way to get my life low enough to kill all my opponents with Repay in Kind. Lich and Pains Reward (I bid 18 life with it) were already in my graveyard. Was also thinking of how to kill everyone with another combat and Death Cloud, Pox or smth. I managed to get my opps to 4 life or so, and omnath player won just after that.
Bubbling Muck is perfect to this deck.
Have to think of some other wincons though.
i feel like sometimes, i need some form of life-gain. even something as potentially minor as exsanguinate or tendrils of agony, 'cuz paying life is all good and fun till you're stuck on 1 life with pain lands in play, a tapped mana vault and things like cruel bargain, andvampiric tutor in hand.
by the way, how has death cloud been for you? it's been so-so for me... i usually have the highest quality of stuff on the board, and my opponents usually have a lot of extra lands lying about.
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
I have built few other cEDH decks recently and now my mind is free and wallet is empty, so I'm back to
building the Defiler! I have not played the deck for quite a long time, sadly. Time to make it up!
Death Cloud has been so-so for me, but I won few times because of the card. I was thinking of swapping it for Crucible of Worlds, or any other card.
Maybe you are right about the lack of lifegain, @shweinefett. Gray Merchant of Asphodel and reanimating him one or two times should do the job. You may also try Whip of Erebos. It may work. I do not think there is a spell sufficient enough to heal us up after paying half of lifetotal or so. But any card impactful enough to be included is kindly welcome. Any ideas?
Second of all, (I think I mentioned that before) I am concerned about the "only" way of killing opponents in this deck (Lich+Repay in Kind). I feel the deck needs something else. The "Ritual into big scary Demon" plan is not always good enough, even though it is fast. Creatures are dying. Opponents are ramping, playing powerhouses, our creatures are almost always 2for1 when killed. Can you think of any other way of killing opponents, or insta-kill them? Some plan that will be "consistent enough" to incorporate it into the deck as a plan B not destroying the whole idea of the deck (I know that "consistent" sounds funny here, but..
Can you think of some newly released cards to add to the deck??
Doom Whisperer from GRN?