Adding wincons shouldn't dilute the deck much, if you want to avoid a long grindy game. It probably wouldn't hurt to have more tutors/recursion, though, since I doubt you're ever getting villainous wealth returned with the commander. You might also try mindslaver since you can use it to force an opponent to return whatever you want (including mindslaver).
Dark Deal is a really bad card. I'm kind of baffled that anyone likes it unless they're playing nekusar. You run the risk of drawing your opponents into better cards, plus it's negative CA for you. It's not good against control either, really, since they'll just use their removal on you before discarding it, or they'll counter dark deal to begin with. If you want to blow out a control deck that's sitting on a good hand, you could try mind twist. It should be pretty easy to convince someone else to give it back to you as well.
Boseiju isn't a bad plan. Colorless lands are at a bit of a premium in 3-color though.
I've played Derevi before, and a guy at my LGS has one, but no one I know personally has one. I'll be testing this deck around a bunch of places, though, so I'll probably run into him sooner or later. Derevi is definitely more powerful imo, but he's also more of a hate magnet for that reason, so the game would really depend a lot on what the other players are doing.
I like your list as a control shell as well, but some others have mentioned I think I will try building him with a different win condition. Namely Storm.
Tendrils of Agony, Minds Desire, and Brain Freeze can be the main win conditions supported by the standard storm enablers like Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, Bubbling Muck, High Tide, Tormods Cript ect.
This makes what cards to return to you and even more risky choice for the opponents because they have to worry about you having a Tendrils in hand and the potential storm count. Any opportunity for my opponent to make a mistake is good in my books.
I also think Monastery Siege is worth testing in the deck. Both of its abilities are very relevant to the deck. mode 1 loots to dig for what you need and fill the library, and the second mode protects anything we have on the board, or at least makes them have to really want to remove it.
I'd be curious to see what you come up with. To me it seems difficult to accomplish a storm wincon since it requires a lot of pieces, and tasigur tends to mean your opponents know what you're up to, but then I haven't really done a storm EDH so I could be wrong.
Monastery Siege I don't think gives us enough. The khan mode is pretty mediocre imo since most of the pieces in the deck are of approximately equal value, and lands are relevant all game, so there's no junk to discard (although it does have synergy with LFTL, but then any given cycling land does the same without being a lousy recursion target for Tasigur). And the dragon mode doesn't do much since there's so few permanents in the deck already, and once the deck is "going off" people will be happy to pay whatever it takes to stop it.
In other words, it fetches everything you'd ever want, so it's still not bad to see in hand, and you can exile it with your general if you don't want to see it returned too often.
Yea, I believe most EDH storm decks are about going infinite with some spell and then casting an infinite Tenrils. In the Sultai colors this is super easy with Aluren + Cavern Harpy for example. But I am generally not a fan of infinite combos so I might just add Tendrils as a big damage spell.
I did a cube draft and got lucky enough to pick the Tasigur there and here are some cards I found worked really well with him:
Waterfront Bouncer - Ditch a spell to bounce a threat then activate Tasigur to potentially get it back
Looter il-Kor - Fills the GY for his Delve and he can potentially get anything you put there back later
Mind Twist - Maybe i got lucky with this one but twice in a row it was the only target in my graveyard. My opponent was not pleased.
Duskmantle Seer - Your deck has a pretty low avg cmc. This guy will punish those big splashy spells people love in EDH so much. Plus you can just counter spell what ever they get later on.
I don't see Tendrils being worth it unless you plan to kill the table, and that takes a lot of spells or a combo. My version, at least, isn't really capable of killing anyone other than commander damage (although it's really good at locking them out of the game and generating CA), so non-commander damage is mostly useless unless someone else does most of the work for me. Also it's tricky to get back to your hand with Tasigur, and you have to dedicate a lot of cards to it even though it may never happen. Give it a try, I don't feel optimistic about it, though.
Cube is pretty different than constructed. Waterfront bouncer + Tasigur is basically just a 1-mana-cheaper creature-only capsize on a body, plus the idea is that you pitch your worst card to bouncer, which means you probably would rather get back something else - if anything, it's a nonbo with Tasigur, although it's decent with LFTL although it still doesn't justify the inclusion imo. Looter il-kor I love in cube (and some other decks) but the damage is meaningless and a looter isn't strong enough imo (see above comment on monastery siege). Mind twist is pretty nasty and could probably replace head games, but head games is hilarious and I want to test it out. Duskmantle I'm definitely against, letting my opponents draw cards is something I avoid at all costs, and the life loss is meaningless to my win condition.
Transmutes are pretty strong and I agree 3 cmc is a sweet spot (although the 3 cmc transmutes themselves are all pretty bad when cast, not that it matters really). As mentioned earlier, I prefer to keep a low number of tutors while I'm testing the deck, though.
I think this list needs a snapcaster mage, and probably some extra redundancy in choices for intuition. As it stands, you can only tutor for board wipes once out of intuition, after that, they might just be nearly all in your yard without a way to find them again. If a game goes long (and it looks like they will), you'll probably need to wrath more than a few times.
I do have a hard time believing you won a couple of games, a 4/5 with zero evasion gets chumped by every single deck I've ever seen--I think you need a sword or filth and urborg, and hatred or something. Considering that a non-zero number of your 1-1 removal spells help your opponents who play creatures chump your only win-con and you have nearly no CA for a control deck, games must have gone for hours.
I think this list needs a snapcaster mage, and probably some extra redundancy in choices for intuition. As it stands, you can only tutor for board wipes once out of intuition, after that, they might just be nearly all in your yard without a way to find them again. If a game goes long (and it looks like they will), you'll probably need to wrath more than a few times.
I do have a hard time believing you won a couple of games, a 4/5 with zero evasion gets chumped by every single deck I've ever seen--I think you need a sword or filth and urborg, and hatred or something. Considering that a non-zero number of your 1-1 removal spells help your opponents who play creatures chump your only win-con and you have nearly no CA for a control deck, games must have gone for hours.
Snappy's fine. The 2/1 body is pretty meaningless though, so it's not really much better than regrowth, and a bit worse since it exiles and can't recur other cards.
I've never used intuition to tutor for board wipes. It's always getting loam engine, or if I already have land recursion then VS + seedborn or something. Eventually the number of tutors will probably increase, increasing the number of virtual wipes, but the plan behind the deck is that, as long as someone else is behind on board they'll be happy to give me back a board wipe with Tasigur.
Entomb has been less exciting than I hoped - the plan is to dump something you, and an opponent, want you to have (such as a board wipe) and then that player lets you have it. Also T1 entomb, T2 lftl is nice. There's a good chance it gets cut, though.
increasing ambition fits the deck pretty well except for the whole being an 8 mana sorcery out of the graveyard thing, which I really don't like. Not saying it couldn't happen, but I'd really prefer a deck with more board presence before I considered tapping out for something like that. I really like my curves low and reactive. But as far as expensive tutors go, it's probably one of the best.
VS and academy ruins are my failsafes to prevent decking myself. They're also really nice for setting up intuition packages. It wouldn't be worth it to recur something of lesser importance, but seedborn muse/prophet and crucible are really crucial cards for this deck. Fabricate is a nonland, and it performs a totally different function.
Thus far I have yet to actually officially "win" a game because it always ends when everyone agrees that they can't stop me (usually because I'm strip locking one player and slowly racking up commander damage against the other) and they don't want to play it out. Yes, the wincon is slow, but it doesn't need to be fast when I've got control of the board. This deck is a better boa constrictor than a tiger. Also do notice that I have a few evasion-granting lands to ensure the commander gets through, although thus far I haven't needed them. So far the record is 4-1, although caring about a record is kind of stupid in EDH.
CA-wise, Tasigur has always provided plenty in my experience so far, and thanks to delve it's not hard to keep him on the field. This may vary meta to meta, but at least so far he hasn't garnered too much hate until it's late-game and he's getting absurd CA and locking down the game. The trick is to play him when at least 2 other players have significant threats out, so that any removal that pops up is aimed somewhere else (which was my mistake in the game where he got tucked).
EDIT: btw, worth mentioning that incarnations (filth, genesis, etc) are absolutely awful in Tasigur because they'll never stay in your graveyard.
As for all the transmuting, I'm converting a Wydwen, the Biting Gale deck (once all the cards get here) into Tasigur, and they happened to be all-stars, fetching what I needed to either solve a problem or force a win. The Runechanter's Pike and Empyrial Plate suggestions are from the remnants of that deck, as it would just Flash in the general in order to assassinate a player or put more pressure on the last man or two standing.
This build seems to need to be even more political in its early game than Wydwen was due to abusing his ability.
Right now, as for problematic decks other than Derevi, there's a Rafiq of the Many in the meta, and a new player I've heard about through friends who ran Captain Sisay and now Gaddock Teeg. Rafiq is worrisome due to how hard and fast he swings, and Teeg due to how it sounds like he's running hatebears.dec. The majority of decent removal in this build is 3 or less which helps negate Teeg, and as for Rafiq, he does love swinging into a player with little/no boardstate like Wydwen, and this deck seems to have the same boardstate: just about nothing but lands.
Essentially, what I am saying is: does this do well against something quick like him? Does it tend to pack enough cheap removal to handle him as an early threat? It does appear to have an amazing endgame.
As for all the transmuting, I'm converting a Wydwen, the Biting Gale deck (once all the cards get here) into Tasigur, and they happened to be all-stars, fetching what I needed to either solve a problem or force a win. The Runechanter's Pike and Empyrial Plate suggestions are from the remnants of that deck, as it would just Flash in the general in order to assassinate a player or put more pressure on the last man or two standing.
This build seems to need to be even more political in its early game than Wydwen was due to abusing his ability.
Right now, as for problematic decks other than Derevi, there's a Rafiq of the Many in the meta, and a new player I've heard about through friends who ran Captain Sisay and now Gaddock Teeg. Rafiq is worrisome due to how hard and fast he swings, and Teeg due to how it sounds like he's running hatebears.dec. The majority of decent removal in this build is 3 or less which helps negate Teeg, and as for Rafiq, he does love swinging into a player with little/no boardstate like Wydwen, and this deck seems to have the same boardstate: just about nothing but lands.
Essentially, what I am saying is: does this do well against something quick like him? Does it tend to pack enough cheap removal to handle him as an early threat? It does appear to have an amazing endgame.
Against Rafiq you've got a bunch of removal available, and vs teeg I don't think there's many hatebears that bother us too much, and those that do can be removed. Derevi seems problematic due to evading commander tax + flash, though. That's when you'll want to rely on the other players to give you your silver bullets against him with Tasigur.
A lot of how well this deck performs depends on your meta. Do people tend to go after whoever looks like the easiest target, or do they try to put the hate on whoever is in the lead? This deck's goal is to look dangerous to mess with, while not looking dangerous to let live. It tends to want to do the "if you attack me, you're going to get hurt" maneuver, but some people take that as a challenge and swing anyway. Depending on your meta and your skill at reading the table, this deck might work like gangbusters, or they might just keep attacking you because you're short on blockers and get killed early.
Swinging into the easiest target often happens, which is why the early removal suite is so important.
I'm still going to give this a shot because it looks so fun, but, I've got a backup plan in the form of a creature version of this deck, with constant reanimation/return to hand effects, giving me a board presence via disposable creatures and time to build up to endless CA. Besides, the creature version gives me a terrible excuse to run Perplexing Chimera alongside Homeward Path and Seedborn Muse or Prophet of Kruphix. Repeatable, abusable Commandeer seems like a nice plan to back up DEN and friends with some dumb fatty wincon.
All this I'm doing at the moment is a bunch of guesswork while waiting for the cards to come in while using your experiences to my advantage; creature-light/creatureless control/combo has long been one of my favorite archetypes to the point that the meta has shifted because of my previous deckbuilding.
If that gets too bad, though, I'll just play something else for a bit like Brago, Blink Engine Eternal or Gisa.
Looks like a fun deck. The only real problem I see with it is that Tasigur himself could eventually draw so much hate that you'll perpetually be targeted first by everyone at the table, especially if you play the deck with a somewhat stable playgroup. Tasigur reeks of politics, and nobody trusts a politician.
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EDH: B Chainer, Dementia Master B | UG Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG | WRG Marath, Will of the Wild WRG | UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR | UBG Tasigur, the Golden Fang UBG
Modern: WBG Abzan Company WBG | UBR Grixis Delver and/or Twin UBR | U Merfolk U
WBG Anafenza, the Foremost WBG WUR Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR
WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon WUBRG URG Maelstrom Wanderer URG UBG Damia, Sage of Stone UBG WUG Roon of the Hidden Realm WUG WUG Rafiq of the Many WUG WUG Deveri, Empyrial Tactician WUG BRG Prossh, Skyraider of Kher BRG WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain WBG UBR Nekusar, the Mind Razer UBR WBR Kaalia of the Vast WBR UG Prime Speaker Zegana UG UG Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG WB Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter WB WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV WU
I really like this list, but I can't help but feel like you need more win conditions than just swinging with Tasigur.
Have you considered Bribery? Its cheaper than many other typical Commander win conditions and it seems like it would work well here. It won't be good if there aren't good targets in your playgroup, so it depends on that. Another downside is that people probably won't willingly return it to your hand.
Brago is pretty sweet, one of my other favorites. I favor a PW-heavy build.
@Spentbullets
That did happen once to me (2v1 out of the gate) however the store I usually play at has a pretty large crowd so I don't end up in a lot of repeat opponents. The risk is there whenever you play a deck that wins a lot, of course. With some decks you can just win an Xv1 game anyway, but I don't think those decks are as much fun to play or to play against.
@threshold7
It was definitely in consideration, I do have a pretty high concentration of instants already, though. I might try it out at a future point, it would be nice to flash lftl.
@weebos
Ha, no one will give me a break about the lack of wincons. So far it really hasn't mattered. Bribery in particular doesn't seem very strong for this deck. For one thing, it's just one card in the deck, so it's not exactly reliable, especially when most of my deck tends to end up in my graveyard. For a second thing, it only tends to really be a gamewinner when played on the early turns, which is not the game this deck is built for.
There are a few wincons I'm giving consideration: spitting image, worm harvest, laboratory maniac, capture of jingzhou, and Army of the Damned. Spitting image and Worm harvest both clog up Tasigur a bit, but they're reliable and they can give me a powerful wincon with LFTL. Lab man and capture (or your cheaper, off-brand alternative) basically only work when I'm out of library, at which point I can activate tasigur enough to force them to my hand and either take infinite turns or just win the game. Army of the damned is a one-shot, but it's a pretty strong one-shot.
Of those, spitting image and worm harvest are probably my favorites since they can have useful impact before the end of the game by providing blockers or whatever, although worm harvest is somewhat at odds with my plan to play all the lands out of my grave with crucible, so spitting image is my very favorite. Also it gives me a reason to keep running entomb. Capture is in third, since it's still a strong card at any point in the game, and doesn't really dilute the deck much. But on the downside, no one likes infinite turns.
Honestly, thus far I've never felt like I really needed graveyard filtering. All the cards are strong at almost any point in the game. And I just don't think Withered Wretch is a strong enough card on its own, plus it's a creature. Of the suggested creatures I like Psychatog the most, but I still don't think it's worth dedicating a card to filtering the grave if you build the deck well enough.
Deep analysis I don't like. Too expensive on the main cast, sorcery speed, too obvious a target for Tasigur to return to my hand, one shot effect, doesn't really economize well when returned via Tasigur...Nah. Not a fan. If I could reliably stick it in my grave instead of in my hand then maybe, but that's pretty unlikely. We have better draw spells in BUG.
I like spitting image more than worm harvest. Worm harvest seems cool, but this deck is pretty good at getting lands out of the grave with lftl and crucible so I'm not sure if I'll keep enough in the grave to make it worthwhile. Spitting image requires fewer conditions. The risk for both of them, imo, is flipping them over earlier than I'd like and revealing my evil plans before I can really defend them, but I think at least spitting image deserves a slot.
In other news, I think I should put Urborg in here, if for no other reason that to give my fetches something to do after they've fetched all my duals/shocks/basics.
In other other news, I think I'll try putting together some variations on this decklist that more aggressively pursue their own interests early - i.e. phyrexian arena, deathreap ritual, oracle of mul daya, etc and see how it goes. There's a lot of avenues to explore with this guy.
Yeah, this guy just makes my head hurt thinking about it. Do you think there's any merit in a Creeping Renaissance + Manabond Package to just play out all the lands in your 'yard at once - or is that just a bit too janky?
Have you considered Cadaverous Bloom? You get to mill your entire library in combination with Training Grounds (which I think you've said your deck can abuse) and in doing so you get to sculpt the "perfect" hand, but even using it in a "fair" way, you can repeatedly use Tasi's ability at the cost of cards in hand (presumably excess lands off Loam) to force your opponents into getting you the card, or type of card, you need. Additionally, with LftL plus a non-blue cycling land, you can generate an amount of green and/or black mana equal to half the number of lands left in your graveyard and library as long as you keep hitting lands off of the dredge (this combo will also mill you out).
What about Notion Thief as an extra (or replacement?) Chains effect? You have Mystical Teachings to find it, its an instant (so it works with your draw-go style), and you have enough cheap removal that an opposing Consecrated Sphinx causing you to deck is unlikely (and something like that happening will probably cause you to win). Will it draw too much hate perhaps?
I know you don't like Scrabbling Claw effects, but does Bow of Nylea offer enough utility to make it worth it? For one, it's another Volrath's Stranglehold effect to abuse in the endgame. Tucking 4 cards for two mana is a lot more efficient that most other options (and 9/10 times will leave you with the right kind of cards), but if you don't need that effect, the lifegain can put you out of burn range (which you said you lost to once) and the flying ping can shoot annoying tokens that fly over Tasi's head. The counter ability is mostly irrelevant if you say you never win through combat damage, though it does do a couple things like let your general live through a Toxic Deluge for 5 or an opponent Diluvian Primordialing your Dismember.
Treasure Hunt? Maybe it's too cute, but with the high number of lands this deck runs, and the value it gets off Crucible and Loam, this seems like it can set you up well. Also, playing it t2 and discarding a bunch of lands is pretty sweet when your general has delve. Sucks too much to get back off Tasi, I guess?
I've never a played a deck like this so I apologize if my suggestions aren't right for your deck, but I'm trying to make a deck that's similar to yours, and there's a few card choices I want to get your opinion on since you've had experience with Tasi and seem to know him well. (i.e. in my deck, I have Laboratory Maniac, which in combination with Training Grounds and Cadaverous Bloom can win using LftL with cyclelands, and you only need Grounds+Bloom+Tasi to go off, along with an open blue mana and three cards in hand. Do I even need to be doing that?)
Yeah, this deck is such a delightful little puzzle to build. I'm having such fun with it.
Have you ever tried out Door of Fate? It's Hilariously bad, but it's actually quite potent in Tasigur thanks to all the cards you can potentially exile with Tasigur's delve ability. Plus, it's super sweet with Temporal Mastery. There's a way to get that to loop, I just haven't figured it out a way yet that isn't terrible
@stapler: You just reminded me of a build I made for Sidisi a while back. Porting the old Prosperous Bloom deck to EDH, and I think Tasigur will be a far more useful general for it. I think I'll rebuild it with a proxy Tasigur and post a list.
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For Lists, Click Here EDH: GW: Selvala, Let us help YOU. UB: Mirko Vosk, when outmatched cheat BW: Vish Kal, The Arbiter of Reanimation UG: Prime Speaker Zegana, the science of sorcery RB: Malfegor, Traitor's Haven UW: Daxos, Control-Fort-Tron BG: Pharika, Goddess of Stax RW: Gisela, Boros Control RG: Ruric Thar, a Primal Surge deck RU: Niv-Mizzet the Firemind, Spellslinger?!?! B:(Pauper) Mikaeus the Unhallowed R: Kurkesh, Onakke Ancient: The Power of Engineering
I love Umezawa; he did a lot of work in my Wydwen, the Biting Gale build. However, in this, the general serves a similar purpose as him, and we don't want to be exiling too many kill spells, but rather grinding them out by using them over and over again.
Speaking of kill spells, what about Krosan Grip? It's a green staple that shuts down things like Mind over Matter combo (among others), but it only hits artifacts and enchantments. Is it prone to being a dead card to be returned again to waste his ability?
Reckless Spite seems like it wouldn't be too terrible here either. The nonblack clause is a big pain in EDH, which is almost enough to make it not worth it, but instant speed, 3 CMC for Transmute, and a two-for-one would quickly get out of hand if you're able to keep recurring it. Life loss is a problem, but I think the impact of using Tasigur's ability while an opponent is being attacked by another opponent could make it worth it.
Otherwise I like your build. It's definitely something I'd run if I wanted to have those deliciously long, drawn out control games, but I try to make my decks fast so people don't tire of the match quickly. Have you considered Spellskite? Recurring that has always been a favorite/maligned play in my group.
I had a few interesting games last night. I played at my usual haunt (but not against anyone I knew) and ended up getting there kind of late, so I had to settle for a few 3-player games against Glissa and Maelstrom Wanderer.
Things went rather badly game 1. I had an ok hand, quickly went for the intuition package to set up lftl, with a bit of removal and constant mists in my hand, so I felt reasonably confident. As usual, I avoided playing my commander early to bait removal, and let my opponents get out of control to the degree that I figured I could still step in and restore balance, which meant MW had godo equipped with the 2 good swords, while Glissa had prototype portal with scuttling doom engine on it, and staff of nin, and a sol ring, by turn 6 or 7 (yes, it seemed like a very slow MW deck, he rarely cast MW). With this going on, I figured for sure they would fight each other and I could stabilize and build up my CA, but godo takes a swing at me anyway. Annoyed, I use my buyback fog, neutralizing all his sword triggers and figuring, especially with lftl getting used, that that'll be the last time he attacks me in the near future considering i have nothing on the board and prevent all his triggers, but Godo continues to swing at me even while Glissa is making doom engine tokens, and Glissa is pinging me with staff of nin (and the resulting token death's damage) as well. All of this when I have nothing but 6 lands on the field, mind you, and they're each sitting at around 10 mana and a ton of dangerous-ish crap. Finally I asked MW why he was attacking me, and he said because he didn't know what I was up to, so I laid out my hand of a few removal spells, lands, and the fog. He finally attacked glissa a bit, but still both players were directing a lot of incidental damage at me. Ultimately MW landed a T&N for purphoros + avenger of zendikar and killed me and glissa simultaneously.
Game 2 I got a fair amount of incidental hate too, but I figured I was better off just being the real threat they wanted me to be and tutored + landed a protected seedborn muse pretty quickly, tucked MW, generated a lot of CA with Tasigur and managed to get control of the game and win despite playing 2v1 for most of it.
I'm not sure what to chalk the hate up to, exactly. I got there late, so they might have played each other already and knew what was in each others' decks, or might even have known each other before, and just wanted to gang up on the new, unknown quantity. I'm guessing my expensive manabase could also tip people off to the fact that I've got some dangerous stuff, although I'm far from the only person running around with duals in this shop. I think playing a 3-player game is not what this deck wants to do, frankly, since it tends to be pretty tight quarters and it's a lot harder to be ignored, plus the other 2 players don't need to play defense as hard since only one other person can mess with them, so if they figure they can take down that other person, then all they have to do is kill you. And once they've killed the other player, they know they have to handle all your removal alone. So that's definitely part of the issue. One of the fun things about this deck is that it relies on your ability to coerce the table to ignore you in order to win reliably - either by stuff you actually say, or more commonly by sandbagging threats and threatening removal with untapped mana. Which is all well and good until you find yourself sandbagging everything, threatening everything, and still getting 2v1ed. At which point, my inner spike wants to flip the table and come back with Child of Alara or some control deck that's more than capable of playing Xv1 and still coming out ahead - but that's sort of exactly what I'm trying to avoid with this style of deck and this style of play (as satisfying as it is to watch everyone groan when I wipe the board for the ninth turn in a row). So I think I have to just accept that sometimes it's just not going to work. I'm curious if other people assess threats like these guys, though, or if they think they made the right call. Were they savvy, or just paranoid?
Anyway, I still came out ahead winning 1/2 in a 3-man game, but it didn't exactly work the way I wanted it to, or the way it usually does with other, similarly-styled decks. Hopefully I can get there earlier next week and get into a 4-man.
Anyway, suggestions:
@BurntGerbil
Manabond, definitely not. Creeping renaissance is probably cool if you have a more creature-based deck, but here I'll take lftl every time.
@Stapler
Cadaverous Bloom combo is cute, I'm not really in the combo business though (also it's kind of complex if you really want to build a strong combo).
Notion thief is really strong, and would be good here. I've tried to go with a more political, less likely to draw hate sort of build, where I figure chains will annoy people a lot less, and also it's harder to protect creatures. I can see a build where I would play him (probably with other draw engines too) but I'm not planning on it for the political version.
Bow of Nylea seems too situational. I only really need one deck-replacement effect to avoid decking myself, and lands don't really count as a spot, plus they're easier to recur. The other modes are all cute but I don't think it adds up to enough for me.
Treasure hunt is just way too weak. Plus I only have 43 lands, it's not like I'd be likely to hit more than 1-2 cards, and it's awful for Tasigur.
I considered lab man as a wincon for this deck, and it's a direction you could go but I think you'll need a lot more recursion and/or tutor to reliably get the bloom. Ultimately I don't want to run combos because I don't want people to freak out and feel they have to kill me quickly in case I spontaneously win in subsequent games. Plus I don't want them to all end the same way.
@TheGreyKing1
Do you mean Mirror of Fate? In which case, no, haha. I'm sure there's some funny combo you could build around it, but as above posts indicate I'm not really looking for a combo win, or to have dead cards in my hand/grave.
@Kolmogorov
Toshiro is awesome, I love that guy, and admittedly he's pretty solid here. My biggest concern is mostly that I don't like jumping through hoops too much with this deck, or presenting targets for removal, but I could definitely see trying him out.
@KissMyAssassin
I did feel like the deck is a bit weak to artifacts/enchantments, although I think I'd tend towards deglamer over grip for the lower cost and ability to tuck gods (maybe just because Purphoros did 30 damage or so over 2 games last night, my view might be biased). The removal package is really fluid, though, you could definitely try it out without really changing how the deck works.
@SoddenPine
Reckless spite is in the maybe board. Removal is pretty interchangeable so try it out. Spellskite I don't think makes the cut, my goal is always to play Tasigur at the time when he won't be the biggest threat on the board.
Since you either revealed your heavy control strategy or failed to develop significant board presence, judging by your expensive mana base as well, they probably had the gut feeling that they were dealing with a tuned combo deck. At least in my meta, the threat of being comboed out by a solitaire player raises more eyebrows than even ridiculous value plays. Though, you can just ask the players you played with for feedback and their thoughts - sounds to me like you are antagonizing them a bit. Don't forget that live opponents can be as good as or better than you are. Thus, some will be able to discern your strategy and be able to prepare countermeasures against your plays. I personally feel that you are overhyping Tasigur a little and am skeptical of your analysis as a result, so take my biased advice with a grain of salt.
Since you either revealed your heavy control strategy or failed to develop significant board presence, judging by your expensive mana base as well, they probably had the gut feeling that they were dealing with a tuned combo deck. At least in my meta, the threat of being comboed out by a solitaire player raises more eyebrows than even ridiculous value plays. Though, you can just ask the players you played with for feedback and their thoughts - sounds to me like you are antagonizing them a bit. Don't forget that live opponents can be as good as or better than you are. Thus, some will be able to discern your strategy and be able to prepare countermeasures against your plays. I personally feel that you are overhyping Tasigur a little and am skeptical of your analysis as a result, so take my biased advice with a grain of salt.
The reason I'm hyped for Tasigur is not because I think he's some sort of insane CA-machine or especially powerful as a card in a 1v1-situation, I mean realistically his ability isn't much better than azure mage unless you're going to a lot of trouble to control what's in your grave, and even then a bad topdeck can throw him off. The reason I'm hyped for him is because I think his ability gets a lot better if you can team up with players against common enemies to control what you get back off his ability, and basically play your opponents off each other until you're in a position to fight the table and win. Of course, if both your opponents are committed to an Xv1 game out of the starting gate, then that's never going to work and he's going to be mediocre at best. So yes, he has potential, but (at least with this version of the deck) he's dependent on being able to control his threat level to avoid getting into an Xv1 game too early. From a pure power-level, 1v1 standpoint, mimeoplasm or Damia is probably head and shoulders above him, but the goal is to play a commander that relies on the multiplayer environment, which can bite you in the ass from time to time.
I did actually talk to them a bit. Neither of them had any idea what my deck was doing (to be fair, it's not a very usual deck) they just felt weird about it. Which I feel like, fair enough if the other player wasn't much of a threat, but both of them had a lot more mana and a lot more pretty dangerous stuff on the field. And fair enough if I was generating CA, but I wasn't. And fair enough if it doesn't cost you anything to keep pressure on, but one guy was missing 4 sword triggers per turn just to force me to sac one land to my fog. I think part of the problem is that, if I WERE playing a combo deck, neither of their decks had any instant-speed answers to stop me if I dropped palinchron + DEN or something, so if they're worried that I have that, then they sort of have to attack me because they have no other way to deal with it. And I think the existing bug commanders have people assuming that some sort of combo shenanigans is afoot.
I really do think a big part of it is being a 3-player game, though. I'm not a fan of 3-player, it turns into 2v1 way too easily.
Adding wincons shouldn't dilute the deck much, if you want to avoid a long grindy game. It probably wouldn't hurt to have more tutors/recursion, though, since I doubt you're ever getting villainous wealth returned with the commander. You might also try mindslaver since you can use it to force an opponent to return whatever you want (including mindslaver).
Dark Deal is a really bad card. I'm kind of baffled that anyone likes it unless they're playing nekusar. You run the risk of drawing your opponents into better cards, plus it's negative CA for you. It's not good against control either, really, since they'll just use their removal on you before discarding it, or they'll counter dark deal to begin with. If you want to blow out a control deck that's sitting on a good hand, you could try mind twist. It should be pretty easy to convince someone else to give it back to you as well.
Boseiju isn't a bad plan. Colorless lands are at a bit of a premium in 3-color though.
I've played Derevi before, and a guy at my LGS has one, but no one I know personally has one. I'll be testing this deck around a bunch of places, though, so I'll probably run into him sooner or later. Derevi is definitely more powerful imo, but he's also more of a hate magnet for that reason, so the game would really depend a lot on what the other players are doing.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Tendrils of Agony, Minds Desire, and Brain Freeze can be the main win conditions supported by the standard storm enablers like Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, Bubbling Muck, High Tide, Tormods Cript ect.
This makes what cards to return to you and even more risky choice for the opponents because they have to worry about you having a Tendrils in hand and the potential storm count. Any opportunity for my opponent to make a mistake is good in my books.
I also think Monastery Siege is worth testing in the deck. Both of its abilities are very relevant to the deck. mode 1 loots to dig for what you need and fill the library, and the second mode protects anything we have on the board, or at least makes them have to really want to remove it.
Monastery Siege I don't think gives us enough. The khan mode is pretty mediocre imo since most of the pieces in the deck are of approximately equal value, and lands are relevant all game, so there's no junk to discard (although it does have synergy with LFTL, but then any given cycling land does the same without being a lousy recursion target for Tasigur). And the dragon mode doesn't do much since there's so few permanents in the deck already, and once the deck is "going off" people will be happy to pay whatever it takes to stop it.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
The best part about it is that it transmutes for Toxic Deluge, Hero's Downfall, Wipe Away, Capsize, Beast Within, Putrefy, Sultai Charm, Dismember, Oblivion Stone, Pernicious Deed, Hinder, Spell Crumple, Voidslime, Intuition, and Crucible of Worlds.
In other words, it fetches everything you'd ever want, so it's still not bad to see in hand, and you can exile it with your general if you don't want to see it returned too often.
Beating Face with Bane
Beatrice, the Golden Witch
I did a cube draft and got lucky enough to pick the Tasigur there and here are some cards I found worked really well with him:
Cube is pretty different than constructed. Waterfront bouncer + Tasigur is basically just a 1-mana-cheaper creature-only capsize on a body, plus the idea is that you pitch your worst card to bouncer, which means you probably would rather get back something else - if anything, it's a nonbo with Tasigur, although it's decent with LFTL although it still doesn't justify the inclusion imo. Looter il-kor I love in cube (and some other decks) but the damage is meaningless and a looter isn't strong enough imo (see above comment on monastery siege). Mind twist is pretty nasty and could probably replace head games, but head games is hilarious and I want to test it out. Duskmantle I'm definitely against, letting my opponents draw cards is something I avoid at all costs, and the life loss is meaningless to my win condition.
Transmutes are pretty strong and I agree 3 cmc is a sweet spot (although the 3 cmc transmutes themselves are all pretty bad when cast, not that it matters really). As mentioned earlier, I prefer to keep a low number of tutors while I'm testing the deck, though.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
You can't entomb anything except life from the loam or mystical teachings(not exactly the picture of efficient), and are missing increasing ambition and get anything back, which seems like a waste of both slots, Volrath's stronghold only finds two creatures, and academy ruins only finds 5 artifacts. You'd be better off with fabricate.
I do have a hard time believing you won a couple of games, a 4/5 with zero evasion gets chumped by every single deck I've ever seen--I think you need a sword or filth and urborg, and hatred or something. Considering that a non-zero number of your 1-1 removal spells help your opponents who play creatures chump your only win-con and you have nearly no CA for a control deck, games must have gone for hours.
I've never used intuition to tutor for board wipes. It's always getting loam engine, or if I already have land recursion then VS + seedborn or something. Eventually the number of tutors will probably increase, increasing the number of virtual wipes, but the plan behind the deck is that, as long as someone else is behind on board they'll be happy to give me back a board wipe with Tasigur.
Entomb has been less exciting than I hoped - the plan is to dump something you, and an opponent, want you to have (such as a board wipe) and then that player lets you have it. Also T1 entomb, T2 lftl is nice. There's a good chance it gets cut, though.
increasing ambition fits the deck pretty well except for the whole being an 8 mana sorcery out of the graveyard thing, which I really don't like. Not saying it couldn't happen, but I'd really prefer a deck with more board presence before I considered tapping out for something like that. I really like my curves low and reactive. But as far as expensive tutors go, it's probably one of the best.
VS and academy ruins are my failsafes to prevent decking myself. They're also really nice for setting up intuition packages. It wouldn't be worth it to recur something of lesser importance, but seedborn muse/prophet and crucible are really crucial cards for this deck. Fabricate is a nonland, and it performs a totally different function.
Thus far I have yet to actually officially "win" a game because it always ends when everyone agrees that they can't stop me (usually because I'm strip locking one player and slowly racking up commander damage against the other) and they don't want to play it out. Yes, the wincon is slow, but it doesn't need to be fast when I've got control of the board. This deck is a better boa constrictor than a tiger. Also do notice that I have a few evasion-granting lands to ensure the commander gets through, although thus far I haven't needed them. So far the record is 4-1, although caring about a record is kind of stupid in EDH.
CA-wise, Tasigur has always provided plenty in my experience so far, and thanks to delve it's not hard to keep him on the field. This may vary meta to meta, but at least so far he hasn't garnered too much hate until it's late-game and he's getting absurd CA and locking down the game. The trick is to play him when at least 2 other players have significant threats out, so that any removal that pops up is aimed somewhere else (which was my mistake in the game where he got tucked).
EDIT: btw, worth mentioning that incarnations (filth, genesis, etc) are absolutely awful in Tasigur because they'll never stay in your graveyard.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
This build seems to need to be even more political in its early game than Wydwen was due to abusing his ability.
Right now, as for problematic decks other than Derevi, there's a Rafiq of the Many in the meta, and a new player I've heard about through friends who ran Captain Sisay and now Gaddock Teeg. Rafiq is worrisome due to how hard and fast he swings, and Teeg due to how it sounds like he's running hatebears.dec. The majority of decent removal in this build is 3 or less which helps negate Teeg, and as for Rafiq, he does love swinging into a player with little/no boardstate like Wydwen, and this deck seems to have the same boardstate: just about nothing but lands.
Essentially, what I am saying is: does this do well against something quick like him? Does it tend to pack enough cheap removal to handle him as an early threat? It does appear to have an amazing endgame.
Beating Face with Bane
Beatrice, the Golden Witch
A lot of how well this deck performs depends on your meta. Do people tend to go after whoever looks like the easiest target, or do they try to put the hate on whoever is in the lead? This deck's goal is to look dangerous to mess with, while not looking dangerous to let live. It tends to want to do the "if you attack me, you're going to get hurt" maneuver, but some people take that as a challenge and swing anyway. Depending on your meta and your skill at reading the table, this deck might work like gangbusters, or they might just keep attacking you because you're short on blockers and get killed early.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I'm still going to give this a shot because it looks so fun, but, I've got a backup plan in the form of a creature version of this deck, with constant reanimation/return to hand effects, giving me a board presence via disposable creatures and time to build up to endless CA. Besides, the creature version gives me a terrible excuse to run Perplexing Chimera alongside Homeward Path and Seedborn Muse or Prophet of Kruphix. Repeatable, abusable Commandeer seems like a nice plan to back up DEN and friends with some dumb fatty wincon.
All this I'm doing at the moment is a bunch of guesswork while waiting for the cards to come in while using your experiences to my advantage; creature-light/creatureless control/combo has long been one of my favorite archetypes to the point that the meta has shifted because of my previous deckbuilding.
If that gets too bad, though, I'll just play something else for a bit like Brago, Blink Engine Eternal or Gisa.
Beating Face with Bane
Beatrice, the Golden Witch
B Chainer, Dementia Master B | UG Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG | WRG Marath, Will of the Wild WRG | UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR | UBG Tasigur, the Golden Fang UBG
Modern:
WBG Abzan Company WBG | UBR Grixis Delver and/or Twin UBR | U Merfolk U
WBG Anafenza, the Foremost WBG
WUR Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR
WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon WUBRG
URG Maelstrom Wanderer URG
UBG Damia, Sage of Stone UBG
WUG Roon of the Hidden Realm WUG
WUG Rafiq of the Many WUG
WUG Deveri, Empyrial Tactician WUG
BRG Prossh, Skyraider of Kher BRG
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain WBG
UBR Nekusar, the Mind Razer UBR
WBR Kaalia of the Vast WBR
UG Prime Speaker Zegana UG
UG Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG
WB Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter WB
WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV WU
Have you considered Bribery? Its cheaper than many other typical Commander win conditions and it seems like it would work well here. It won't be good if there aren't good targets in your playgroup, so it depends on that. Another downside is that people probably won't willingly return it to your hand.
Brago is pretty sweet, one of my other favorites. I favor a PW-heavy build.
@Spentbullets
That did happen once to me (2v1 out of the gate) however the store I usually play at has a pretty large crowd so I don't end up in a lot of repeat opponents. The risk is there whenever you play a deck that wins a lot, of course. With some decks you can just win an Xv1 game anyway, but I don't think those decks are as much fun to play or to play against.
@threshold7
It was definitely in consideration, I do have a pretty high concentration of instants already, though. I might try it out at a future point, it would be nice to flash lftl.
@weebos
Ha, no one will give me a break about the lack of wincons. So far it really hasn't mattered. Bribery in particular doesn't seem very strong for this deck. For one thing, it's just one card in the deck, so it's not exactly reliable, especially when most of my deck tends to end up in my graveyard. For a second thing, it only tends to really be a gamewinner when played on the early turns, which is not the game this deck is built for.
There are a few wincons I'm giving consideration: spitting image, worm harvest, laboratory maniac, capture of jingzhou, and Army of the Damned. Spitting image and Worm harvest both clog up Tasigur a bit, but they're reliable and they can give me a powerful wincon with LFTL. Lab man and capture (or your cheaper, off-brand alternative) basically only work when I'm out of library, at which point I can activate tasigur enough to force them to my hand and either take infinite turns or just win the game. Army of the damned is a one-shot, but it's a pretty strong one-shot.
Of those, spitting image and worm harvest are probably my favorites since they can have useful impact before the end of the game by providing blockers or whatever, although worm harvest is somewhat at odds with my plan to play all the lands out of my grave with crucible, so spitting image is my very favorite. Also it gives me a reason to keep running entomb. Capture is in third, since it's still a strong card at any point in the game, and doesn't really dilute the deck much. But on the downside, no one likes infinite turns.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Deep analysis I don't like. Too expensive on the main cast, sorcery speed, too obvious a target for Tasigur to return to my hand, one shot effect, doesn't really economize well when returned via Tasigur...Nah. Not a fan. If I could reliably stick it in my grave instead of in my hand then maybe, but that's pretty unlikely. We have better draw spells in BUG.
I like spitting image more than worm harvest. Worm harvest seems cool, but this deck is pretty good at getting lands out of the grave with lftl and crucible so I'm not sure if I'll keep enough in the grave to make it worthwhile. Spitting image requires fewer conditions. The risk for both of them, imo, is flipping them over earlier than I'd like and revealing my evil plans before I can really defend them, but I think at least spitting image deserves a slot.
In other news, I think I should put Urborg in here, if for no other reason that to give my fetches something to do after they've fetched all my duals/shocks/basics.
In other other news, I think I'll try putting together some variations on this decklist that more aggressively pursue their own interests early - i.e. phyrexian arena, deathreap ritual, oracle of mul daya, etc and see how it goes. There's a lot of avenues to explore with this guy.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
What about Notion Thief as an extra (or replacement?) Chains effect? You have Mystical Teachings to find it, its an instant (so it works with your draw-go style), and you have enough cheap removal that an opposing Consecrated Sphinx causing you to deck is unlikely (and something like that happening will probably cause you to win). Will it draw too much hate perhaps?
I know you don't like Scrabbling Claw effects, but does Bow of Nylea offer enough utility to make it worth it? For one, it's another Volrath's Stranglehold effect to abuse in the endgame. Tucking 4 cards for two mana is a lot more efficient that most other options (and 9/10 times will leave you with the right kind of cards), but if you don't need that effect, the lifegain can put you out of burn range (which you said you lost to once) and the flying ping can shoot annoying tokens that fly over Tasi's head. The counter ability is mostly irrelevant if you say you never win through combat damage, though it does do a couple things like let your general live through a Toxic Deluge for 5 or an opponent Diluvian Primordialing your Dismember.
Treasure Hunt? Maybe it's too cute, but with the high number of lands this deck runs, and the value it gets off Crucible and Loam, this seems like it can set you up well. Also, playing it t2 and discarding a bunch of lands is pretty sweet when your general has delve. Sucks too much to get back off Tasi, I guess?
I've never a played a deck like this so I apologize if my suggestions aren't right for your deck, but I'm trying to make a deck that's similar to yours, and there's a few card choices I want to get your opinion on since you've had experience with Tasi and seem to know him well. (i.e. in my deck, I have Laboratory Maniac, which in combination with Training Grounds and Cadaverous Bloom can win using LftL with cyclelands, and you only need Grounds+Bloom+Tasi to go off, along with an open blue mana and three cards in hand. Do I even need to be doing that?)
Have you ever tried out Door of Fate? It's Hilariously bad, but it's actually quite potent in Tasigur thanks to all the cards you can potentially exile with Tasigur's delve ability. Plus, it's super sweet with Temporal Mastery. There's a way to get that to loop, I just haven't figured it out a way yet that isn't terrible
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EDH:
GW: Selvala, Let us help YOU.
UB: Mirko Vosk, when outmatched cheat
BW: Vish Kal, The Arbiter of Reanimation
UG: Prime Speaker Zegana, the science of sorcery
RB: Malfegor, Traitor's Haven
UW: Daxos, Control-Fort-Tron
BG: Pharika, Goddess of Stax
RW: Gisela, Boros Control
RG: Ruric Thar, a Primal Surge deck
RU: Niv-Mizzet the Firemind, Spellslinger?!?!
B:(Pauper) Mikaeus the Unhallowed
R: Kurkesh, Onakke Ancient: The Power of Engineering
Speaking of kill spells, what about Krosan Grip? It's a green staple that shuts down things like Mind over Matter combo (among others), but it only hits artifacts and enchantments. Is it prone to being a dead card to be returned again to waste his ability?
Beating Face with Bane
Beatrice, the Golden Witch
Otherwise I like your build. It's definitely something I'd run if I wanted to have those deliciously long, drawn out control games, but I try to make my decks fast so people don't tire of the match quickly. Have you considered Spellskite? Recurring that has always been a favorite/maligned play in my group.
Things went rather badly game 1. I had an ok hand, quickly went for the intuition package to set up lftl, with a bit of removal and constant mists in my hand, so I felt reasonably confident. As usual, I avoided playing my commander early to bait removal, and let my opponents get out of control to the degree that I figured I could still step in and restore balance, which meant MW had godo equipped with the 2 good swords, while Glissa had prototype portal with scuttling doom engine on it, and staff of nin, and a sol ring, by turn 6 or 7 (yes, it seemed like a very slow MW deck, he rarely cast MW). With this going on, I figured for sure they would fight each other and I could stabilize and build up my CA, but godo takes a swing at me anyway. Annoyed, I use my buyback fog, neutralizing all his sword triggers and figuring, especially with lftl getting used, that that'll be the last time he attacks me in the near future considering i have nothing on the board and prevent all his triggers, but Godo continues to swing at me even while Glissa is making doom engine tokens, and Glissa is pinging me with staff of nin (and the resulting token death's damage) as well. All of this when I have nothing but 6 lands on the field, mind you, and they're each sitting at around 10 mana and a ton of dangerous-ish crap. Finally I asked MW why he was attacking me, and he said because he didn't know what I was up to, so I laid out my hand of a few removal spells, lands, and the fog. He finally attacked glissa a bit, but still both players were directing a lot of incidental damage at me. Ultimately MW landed a T&N for purphoros + avenger of zendikar and killed me and glissa simultaneously.
Game 2 I got a fair amount of incidental hate too, but I figured I was better off just being the real threat they wanted me to be and tutored + landed a protected seedborn muse pretty quickly, tucked MW, generated a lot of CA with Tasigur and managed to get control of the game and win despite playing 2v1 for most of it.
I'm not sure what to chalk the hate up to, exactly. I got there late, so they might have played each other already and knew what was in each others' decks, or might even have known each other before, and just wanted to gang up on the new, unknown quantity. I'm guessing my expensive manabase could also tip people off to the fact that I've got some dangerous stuff, although I'm far from the only person running around with duals in this shop. I think playing a 3-player game is not what this deck wants to do, frankly, since it tends to be pretty tight quarters and it's a lot harder to be ignored, plus the other 2 players don't need to play defense as hard since only one other person can mess with them, so if they figure they can take down that other person, then all they have to do is kill you. And once they've killed the other player, they know they have to handle all your removal alone. So that's definitely part of the issue. One of the fun things about this deck is that it relies on your ability to coerce the table to ignore you in order to win reliably - either by stuff you actually say, or more commonly by sandbagging threats and threatening removal with untapped mana. Which is all well and good until you find yourself sandbagging everything, threatening everything, and still getting 2v1ed. At which point, my inner spike wants to flip the table and come back with Child of Alara or some control deck that's more than capable of playing Xv1 and still coming out ahead - but that's sort of exactly what I'm trying to avoid with this style of deck and this style of play (as satisfying as it is to watch everyone groan when I wipe the board for the ninth turn in a row). So I think I have to just accept that sometimes it's just not going to work. I'm curious if other people assess threats like these guys, though, or if they think they made the right call. Were they savvy, or just paranoid?
Anyway, I still came out ahead winning 1/2 in a 3-man game, but it didn't exactly work the way I wanted it to, or the way it usually does with other, similarly-styled decks. Hopefully I can get there earlier next week and get into a 4-man.
Anyway, suggestions:
@BurntGerbil
Manabond, definitely not. Creeping renaissance is probably cool if you have a more creature-based deck, but here I'll take lftl every time.
@Stapler
Cadaverous Bloom combo is cute, I'm not really in the combo business though (also it's kind of complex if you really want to build a strong combo).
Notion thief is really strong, and would be good here. I've tried to go with a more political, less likely to draw hate sort of build, where I figure chains will annoy people a lot less, and also it's harder to protect creatures. I can see a build where I would play him (probably with other draw engines too) but I'm not planning on it for the political version.
Bow of Nylea seems too situational. I only really need one deck-replacement effect to avoid decking myself, and lands don't really count as a spot, plus they're easier to recur. The other modes are all cute but I don't think it adds up to enough for me.
Treasure hunt is just way too weak. Plus I only have 43 lands, it's not like I'd be likely to hit more than 1-2 cards, and it's awful for Tasigur.
I considered lab man as a wincon for this deck, and it's a direction you could go but I think you'll need a lot more recursion and/or tutor to reliably get the bloom. Ultimately I don't want to run combos because I don't want people to freak out and feel they have to kill me quickly in case I spontaneously win in subsequent games. Plus I don't want them to all end the same way.
@TheGreyKing1
Do you mean Mirror of Fate? In which case, no, haha. I'm sure there's some funny combo you could build around it, but as above posts indicate I'm not really looking for a combo win, or to have dead cards in my hand/grave.
@Kolmogorov
Toshiro is awesome, I love that guy, and admittedly he's pretty solid here. My biggest concern is mostly that I don't like jumping through hoops too much with this deck, or presenting targets for removal, but I could definitely see trying him out.
@KissMyAssassin
I did feel like the deck is a bit weak to artifacts/enchantments, although I think I'd tend towards deglamer over grip for the lower cost and ability to tuck gods (maybe just because Purphoros did 30 damage or so over 2 games last night, my view might be biased). The removal package is really fluid, though, you could definitely try it out without really changing how the deck works.
@SoddenPine
Reckless spite is in the maybe board. Removal is pretty interchangeable so try it out. Spellskite I don't think makes the cut, my goal is always to play Tasigur at the time when he won't be the biggest threat on the board.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I did actually talk to them a bit. Neither of them had any idea what my deck was doing (to be fair, it's not a very usual deck) they just felt weird about it. Which I feel like, fair enough if the other player wasn't much of a threat, but both of them had a lot more mana and a lot more pretty dangerous stuff on the field. And fair enough if I was generating CA, but I wasn't. And fair enough if it doesn't cost you anything to keep pressure on, but one guy was missing 4 sword triggers per turn just to force me to sac one land to my fog. I think part of the problem is that, if I WERE playing a combo deck, neither of their decks had any instant-speed answers to stop me if I dropped palinchron + DEN or something, so if they're worried that I have that, then they sort of have to attack me because they have no other way to deal with it. And I think the existing bug commanders have people assuming that some sort of combo shenanigans is afoot.
I really do think a big part of it is being a 3-player game, though. I'm not a fan of 3-player, it turns into 2v1 way too easily.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6