I ordered the few cards I was missing for my version of this list last night I'll let you know how it goes. I am not going to run the stax package because the group I'm using it in doesn't even allow Armageddon effects and the last time First time I played them they really did not enjoy the decks I had on hand. So keep me posted on your updates I'll let you know how it pans out.
Sure, you can post your list and let me know how it's going, I may end up borrowing some of your ideas too since I'm still trying to find 3 cards to add to the deck.
I'm removing: Entomb, Necrotic Ooze, Nezumi Graverobber and Scuttlemutt.
I'm adding: Withered Wretch and 3 TBD cards...
Explanations for Withered Wretch vs Nezumi Graverobber: I will play Withered Wretch instead, I found out that 2 mana for each activations is actually a lot, 1 will be a lot better, also, the flip part is not what I need, I'm never using that 5 mana ability anyway (NEVER!) because people will either hate on it or graveyards are empty, and the fact that I can't exile from graveyards anymore once it's flipped it kinda bad too; Withered Wretch is better for devotion, its ability is only 1 colorless mana and is always available (it doesn't flip or anything), and it represents less a threat for my opponents so it should stay on the battlefield longer (can't be Skullclamped though, but we can't have everything, we pretty much have our own sac engine with Horobi anyway)
Edit: I'm looking at Corrupting Licid right now and what a weird card. A 2/2 creature that can become an aura enchanting TARGET creature, then you can pay to end this effect as a special action. If the ability wasn't a tap ability, that could actually be really well playable (altough, as a creature, it's easy to destroy, and it still gets destroyed even if it gets transformed in response).
You could play Head Games what a fun political card (since you are building a multiplayer-only deck) when you cannot get rid of something specific, just make one of your opponent does it for you by getting what he wants at the same time.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
I'm done looking at every legal card ever printed for this deck, here's what I considered (some more than others):
Dark Deal: sadly not Wheel of Fortune, too much of card disadvantage on that one (-1 for everyone and -2 for me) Barter in Blood: I don't have any true sac effects right now; this is a good one Fated Return: playtested previously and the mana cost was too high, but still, it makes Horobi indestructible and works with any graveyard Endless Cockroaches: another previously tested card, problem is it doesn't work with Buried Alive Disciple of Bolas: doesn't work with Fleshwrither since it's an ETB, so Erebos is prefered here, even for reanimation Diabolic Tutor: it's always an option, now that I have Grim Tutor; it's probably the best 4-cmc tutor in black (there aren't a lot actually) Death Denied: not worth it, I prefer reanimating creatures (see better reanimation spells below) Damnable Pact: didn't like it in my playtesting session, Exsanguinate is a better card and Damnable Pact versatility comes at a price; if it goes in, Skeletal Scrying goes out Withering Boon: just a really surprising card, it's definitely not bad in a deck with such a high density of reanimating spells that can target cards in my opponent's graveyard (currently 8), and it's great by itself Wake the Dead: mostly interesting with ETB triggers or to use Horobi+Hex Parasite; also works well with Mikaeus, so I could say it synergises with maybe 6-7 cards in the whole deck, which isn't enough IMO Victimize: I already heard that this card was unfair. It might just be. Interesting Gatherer ruling: This card can be used to put both parts of the B.F.M. (Big Furry Monster) onto the battlefield at once. Vengeful Pharaoh: it may discourages your opponents from attacking you, if it's on the battlefield, you can sac or destroy it; also works kinda well with Horobi, since it does target an attacking creature, which means that the ability won't resolve and it will stay in the graveyard (which is mainly what I would use this for); also, some tricks with first/double strikers are possible Shrouded Lore: not good enough in my opinion when we have Xiahou-Dun, but this is a budget replacement that could work for you Rescue from the Underworld: the instant counterpart of Victimize, except we return the sacced creature + 1 other creature; both cards are good, tough choice, Recue protects from Wrath effects Life's Finale: never liked this card because it's time consuming to search through a deck you don't know, but if there is a deck you want to play this, it's definitely in the same deck that plays Animate Dead and friends Killing Wave: I prefer Deluge and Mutilate (or even Black Sun's Zenith, that I'm not even considering at this point) Infernal Tutor: the last tutor to hand with cmc < 3 that I don't play, but only works with hellbent, or it can get a Swamp; works well with Mindslicer sac in response but I think it's too narrow, Diabolic Intent is way easier to get working. Genju of the Fens: with Urborg, Horobi and Hex Parasite in play, this basically reads: 2B(P/B): Destroy target land.. Any number of times you want. Isn't that... good? Who needs Sinkhole? It does need too much setup for my tastes though, so I will stick with Dust Bowl for now. Anvil of Bogardan: we like cards in graveyards, generally speaking Ashnod's Altar: infinite combo engine, which I don't want to play Barl's Cage: not a really exciting ability, and 4+3N is a lot to kill creatures Baton of Morale: if you'd like to explain what bending does to every new player you meet, play this card (be sure to read the actual ruling too); 2+2N is fine with Horobi Blasting Station: mostly a combo card, doesn't really work well with my current list but someone could make it work Candelabra of Tawnos: why is this thing legal in 1v1? in any case, I'm not gonna buy this thing, but it works with Coffers and Deserted Temple if you are the type of guy that likes to tap Coffers 4 times in the same turn for a 40 mana Exsanguinate Claws of Gix: if you go for the stax package, you will need this, just sac your stax card at EOT before winning Coercive Portal: I never really liked this card, it's better suited for 1v1 play when you can decide to draw a card every turn and don't have access to Phyrexian Arena Darksteel Garrison: indestructible for Coffers, or just a colorless targetting effect once per turn cycle; it would be great if it was indestructible itself too Distorting Lens: I prefer Liquimetal Coating because of its synergy with Karn Erratic Portal: I don't like this card in this deck, but it has to be considered, especially with ETB triggers Glaring Spotlight: doesn't get around shroud and giving hexproof to my creature is mostly meaningless, indestructible would be good though Jade Monolith: already suggested by Rumpy5897; 4+N is better than 2+2N (Baton of Morale) in nearly any case, and damage redirection is also better than Banding is nearly any case although irrevelant in most cases too Masticore: repeatable creature targetting, can be reanimated and regenerated; sadly, the discarding can be bad sometimes, but it's a really strong choice for any Horobi deck, while 4+2N is also a lot Mirror Universe: Soul Conduit's old brother with timing restriction and sac instead of paying. I prefer the repeatability of Soul Conduit and the versatility of not having a timing restriction, and 6+6 mana shouldn't be a problem for this deck anyway Mycosynth Lattice: combo with Karn (and possibly a lot of other cards not considered here) if you are into this, and good with Preator's Grasp to play colored spells Nullstone Gargoyle: we can cheat this into play, and we can deal with creatures if we already have a targetting effect in play and Horobi Oblivion Stone: when fate counters actually kill permanents... definitely good but I'm not facing enough problematic enchantments to run it (the main use still has to be its second ability, because 3+4N and tap is too much only to kill creatures) Predator, Flagship: 5+2N for repeatable creature targetting with something actually relevant by itself: flying. Also, for 5+2N+5T, we can destroy something without Horobi. I prefer Jade Monolith, but this is an alternative. Scale of Chiss-Gloria and Tooth of Chiss-Gloria: these have been mentionned previously here and are commonly accepted as totally playable cards in Horobi; I, however, disagree with that. The effect is in most cases totally useless, so it's basically a 3-cmc instant speed Liquimetal Coating with no specific synergy in the deck. I definitely prefer repeatable effects when available, and Liquimetal has a specific role in the deck with Karn (dealing with what mono-black can't deal) Solemn Simulacrum: I prefer Burnished Hart for this deck, but it probably comes down to personal preferences Staff of Domination: 3+4N-1 to untap or just target creatures, 3+5N-1 to tap creatures or 3+6N-1 to draw cards; it's versatile, but costs a lot of mana. That Which was Taken: this is actually useful, but it has to stay in play to work, and otherwise it's 5+4T to target a permanent. Could be good with Myojin I guess. Stuffy Doll: indestructible is good with Horobi but this doesn't do much Colossus of Akros: fun to reanimate Myojin of Night's Reach: another spirit but not really good with reanimation spells He Who Hungers: I took a specific attention for the couple of Soulshift 4+ cards since it's a mechanic that works well with Horobi and it's the only one that is playable; it's however not good enough in my current list without further support (Bloodghast and Nether Traitor are the only 2 other spirits right now, both recurrable though so I will keep an eye on that one)
So, here are the changes:
- Entomb: banned
- Necrotic Ooze: too often a vanilla, yes it's good with Karn, Fleshwrither, Geth, Xiahou Dun, Hex Parasite, Erebos and Nezumi Graverobber but see... that's only 7 creatures, I need 1 of them in the graveyard and most of the times, it's not the one I need, also it's a little worse without Entomb, and because I have a high density of tutors, that's never a card I'm tutoring for, I will get what I need or something to reanimate what I need
- Scuttlemutt: really underwhelming tbh, yes it's versatile, but it's either a bad mana rock or a bad targetting effect
- Nezumi Graverobber: I will play Withered Wretch instead, I found out that 2 mana for each activations is actually a lot, 1 will be a lot better, also, the flip part is not what I need, I'm never using that 5 mana ability anyway (NEVER!) because people will either hate on it or graveyards are empty, and the fact that I can't exile from graveyards anymore once it's flipped it kinda bad too; Withered Wretch is better for devotion, its ability is only 1 colorless mana and is always available (it doesn't flip or anything), and it represents less a threat for my opponents so it should stay on the battlefield longer (can't be Skullclamped though, but we can't have everything, we pretty much have our own sac engine with Horobi anyway)
+ Withered Wretch: for the reasons stated above on removing Nezumi Graverobber.
+ Withering Boon: a black Essence Scatter, which is a decent spell by itself, but that's even better when your opponents don't expect it because you are playing mono-black, and that's even better when you reanimate their creature right after countering it. It must feel so good that I'm already really excited about playing this card...
+ Jade Monolith: it's less vulnerable than Hex Parasite (because of Horobi) and it has multiple activations (Cauldron of Souls doesn't); for these reasons, at 4+N, I give this card the Horobi's Seal of Approval, and in a couple of cases, the damage redirection could be useful, especially with Soul Conduit. It will take the place of Scuttlemutt.
+ Diabolic Tutor: Going to be Diabolic Tutor for now, but if something better is released or is suggested, it should go instead of this 4-cmc tutor.
All is Dust and Oblivion Stone could be useful. I guess. I mean, I don't have any easy way to deal with enchantments, Karn+Liquimetal work but it's not easy. I can rely on my other opponents to deal with enchantments also, and on 1v1 I may just totally ignore any enchantment.
Gods? Nylea and Thassa do mostly nothing and are not played much in the format. Heliod is creature-centric and I'm playing a deck that destroys creatures every turn, so whatever. Erebos and Purphoros? I can get Exsanguinate in both cases and prepare a lot of mana for it, and with the right timing, that should do it. I also have Soul Conduit for Purphoros.
Do I need to play All is Dust? That's the question. Could I afford to play it, actually? It does kill nearly every non-land permanents in my deck. That's questionnable. Also, it doesn't work really well against Commanders because of the Command zone, so I'm still stuck with the same problems if Purphoros is played as a general for example. With the new no-tuck rule, there is no easy way to get rid multiple times of Gods, that's just a new reality and we all have to focus on our gameplan and move on. That's my main argument against playing dedicated hate towards Gods (which I can't, really, anyway).
I already run both O-Stone and AiD and my other decks, I also use Perilous Vault in my red deck and certainly don't like to exile permanents in Horobi anyway. Withered Boon is a response to Gods, if not played as a General. What about Greater Auramancy + Sterling Grove? I think it's long enough for such a deck to set up a win condition properly for me to just completely ignore that kind of situations, there will always be some kind of 2-card lock like Teferi+Knowledge Pool (I can actually manage that one if I can target Teferi) and that's part of the game too. It's definitely a meta call though, but I think I will just accept that I can't deal with every board situation with mono-black and just stay focused on my own gameplan instead, while I do have outs to destroy enchantments and artifacts if I really need it.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
I decided to go for a tutor in the 99th slot for now. I can't really replace Entomb. I thought about Demonic Collusion + Living Death, it's a sweet combo but the problem with Living Death is the nature of my general, creatures tend to pile up in my opponents' graveyards as much as my own graveyard.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Considering a board wipe instead of Diabolic Tutor right now. Not Perilous Vault nor Ugin because I don't want exile, so mostly Oblivion Stone and All is Dust. Both have their advantage, not that easy to pick one. O-Stone doesn't work against Gods but All is Dust leaves artifacts in play. But I can deal with artifacts in a couple of different ways, so All is Dust is probably what I want.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Sorry it's not in any real order I just flipped through the deck and typed it up on my iPhone it's been an absolute blast to play in my casual meta very political very manipulative lots if cool grave chains. Had a game 2 dats ago at a buddy's house where sepulcher primordial took me from almost nothing to watch me cast runescar demon on everyone's turn with that prophet of Kruphix lol. Thanks for the good work on the op I'm loving Horobi as a general in slower creature based metas. I had the highest win % 3 session in a row with much more powerful decks around to to the sheer political power of Horobi.
Sorry it's not in any real order I just flipped through the deck and typed it up on my iPhone it's been an absolute blast to play in my casual meta very political very manipulative lots if cool grave chains. Had a game 2 dats ago at a buddy's house where sepulcher primordial took me from almost nothing to watch me cast runescar demon on everyone's turn with that prophet of Kruphix lol. Thanks for the good work on the op I'm loving Horobi as a general in slower creature based metas. I had the highest win % 3 session in a row with much more powerful decks around to to the sheer political power of Horobi.
No problem, really happy to finally see your list. I'm also happy that you are enjoying the deck!
Yes, Horobi is very political to play, you can decide at anytime that it's time to kill a couple of creatures, and with that land package (since you are also playing Maze of Ith and Desert), it's pretty easy to be able to target 2 or 3 creatures every turn. It's not a deck that wins fast, but in any creature-heavy meta (which is what Commander usually is), Horobi can hold up a really long time until he gets to start doing degenerate things. One of which includes Sepulchral Primordial as you noted. This creature is just amazing, it just opens so many possibilities. Combined with Corpse Dance and your opponent's Diluvian Primordial, you are sure to have a lot of fun (not your opponents though, lol).
I have a couple of questions about your lists. First, how is Grave Betrayal doing for you? I thought it was a little bit a win-more card, but I guess it has its use. But it's still 7 mana. Also, you are playing Ugin. Why exile in a reanimator deck? I don't understand that choice. Since you are already playing Liquimetal Coating, Karn, Silver Golem would be a nice fit to destroy a permanent every turn with Horobi out. Not sure that Karn (the Planeswalker) is really good here, it just sounds like a goodstuff card, but I don't see how he really interacts with the deck (targetting only 1 player or only 1 permanent at a time, and exiling instead of destroying, we can deal with graveyards with Withered Wretch instead when we really need exile and All is Dust can do it against indestructible permanents). Other choice I don't understand is Makeshift Mannequin over either Fated Return or Goryo's Vengence, and since you don't have Dance of the Dead either, that's quite an expansive reanimation spell. Instant speed is good, which is why I play both Goryo's Vengence and Corpe Dance, but mana cost is important, which is why I don't run Fated Return anymore. Makeshift Mannequin? Never really considered it.
You don't run the Eldrazi Monument package, which is totally fine, but I noticed you are running a lot of sac effects (the Fleshbag Marauder kind), how is it doing for you? It is really necessary in your meta with Horobi? Horobi already deals with creatures easily, Arcane Lighthouse gets around hexproof and Toxic Deluge, Mutilate and All is Dust are all good against indestructible creatures, so I'm a little bit surprised about the addition of these 1-shot effects.
The last big change I see is that you use a lot of Sign in Bloods type of card (without Sign in Blood itself), which is totally fine too, only a preference thing. With the high density of tutors, I tend to rely more on Skullclamp when I need to draw a couple of cards, but that's also because I'm running the Eldrazi Monument package with Bloodghast, Skeleton and Champion.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Still switching back and forth with the idea of Damnable Pact instead of Skeletal Scrying. In my review in March, I said that if this goes in, Scrying goes out. I'm on the same page about this. I still think that Exsanguinate is usually a better card. Promise of Power is also something, 5 cards for 5 mana and 5 life. For the same mana cost, I only get 3 with Damnable Pact. I rarely want to draw that many cards. When I topdeck a tutor lategame, I never go for the draw spell, I always go for the win. I'm starting to really think about how necessary it is to play that sorcery/instant drawing spell, I've got Phyrexian Arena, Erebos and Skullclamp but they all need some work (more life, more mana, creatures or time).
I definitely need to think about it, since I don't really like Skeletal Scrying right now. Also, Moonlight Bargain looks better than Promise of Power to me, especially since Entomb is gone. I don't need to draw 5, but I may need 2 or 3 cards from my top 5, and I may want to put Carrionette, Reassembling Skeleton, Bloodghast, Nether Traitor, Bloodsoaked Champion or Increasing Ambition in my graveyard. If I have any reanimation spell, it could be good to discard a high-cmc creature too. Also, Moonlight Bargain doesn't [b]draw[/c] cards. It makes me look at cards, then put cards in my graveyard or my hand. This is a slight detail, but it's something that makes a difference against a Consecrated Sphinx for example. And I don't have to reveal the cards that I put in my hand. Instant speed is so good.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
I have not landed grave betrayal yet I actualy think it's on the weak side but the idea of touch if darkness with that out makes me smile. I played some meta cards there is a doran voltron ( sac creatures ) zedru enchants and mutiple rest in peace / leyline helm from merike ri berit. I wanted most the reanimate to hit everything since one guys scion of 5 color I play more than 20 dragons. I do want to squeeze in sign in blood I'll add it as I ship out weakest slots. I felt like the monument package was too inconsistent I like clamp but I did not really want the tiny creatures that come with clamping I'll just play some normal filters instead. So far I have win off just the power of Horobi reanimate and honestly the mono black devotion package gray merchant spam is like an auto kill once you get up coffers or nykthos engine but runescar demon and sepulcher primordial are fairly insane as well. I don't care that ugin exiles I even almost like it. he's got a pernicious deed to nab ***** hard for me to kill zedru has some super hoser ***** most us decks pretty tane but enchantment dense , but things like humility need to just die though most times someone else will kill that . But for him Karn all is dust all help me not auto lose to otherwise lame things. Ugin does it and leaves me with a Horobi targeter and can be used again this deck defends PWS quite well. In general I've just sat on phyrexian arena effects slowing the game and manipulating board off Horobi then by late game the large mana engine allows you to start just laying crushing advatage with the sac and reanimate chains. It's very fun to play I could see sliming a couple cards for stuff like sign in blood jet Medalion just for slighty smoother flow.
I have not landed grave betrayal yet I actualy think it's on the weak side but the idea of touch if darkness with that out makes me smile. I played some meta cards there is a doran voltron ( sac creatures ) zedru enchants and mutiple rest in peace / leyline helm from merike ri berit. I wanted most the reanimate to hit everything since one guys scion of 5 color I play more than 20 dragons. I do want to squeeze in sign in blood I'll add it as I ship out weakest slots. I felt like the monument package was too inconsistent I like clamp but I did not really want the tiny creatures that come with clamping I'll just play some normal filters instead. So far I have win off just the power of Horobi reanimate and honestly the mono black devotion package gray merchant spam is like an auto kill once you get up coffers or nykthos engine but runescar demon and sepulcher primordial are fairly insane as well. I don't care that ugin exiles I even almost like it. he's got a pernicious deed to nab ***** hard for me to kill zedru has some super hoser ***** most us decks pretty take but things like humility need to just die though most times someone else will kill that . But for him Karn all is dust all help me not auto lose to otherwise lame things. Ugin does it and leaves me with a Horobi targeter and can be used again this deck defends PWS quite well. In general I've just say on phyreduan arena effects slowing the game and manipulating board off Horobi then by late game the large mana engine allows you to start just laying crushing advatage with the sac and reanimate chains. It's very fun to play I could see sliming a couple cards for stuff like sign in blood jet Medalion just for slighty smoother flow.
I understand now. We play in quite different metas and that's why we end up with different packages. I wouldn't call the Eldrazi Monument inconsistent, not in a deck that runs nearly 10 tutors, especially with your list running even more due to using only the US banlist and all the draw spells you have, but I completely understand how it may not work for you since you need those slots for other cards (it's really taking a couple of slots since I do need the cheap recurrable creatures and Skullclamp kind of goes with it, so that's nearly 10 cards in my deck).
I posted at the same time you responded so just to be sure: what are your thoughts on Moonlight Bargain isntead of Promise of Power, since you are playing the latter? It is written in such a way that you don't actually "draw" the cards, and it also acts as a discard enabler for your reanimation spells. Finally, it is instant speed, which is good with Corpse Dance or any other instant reanimation spell (you play Makeshift Mannequin too right now). I feel like this is a little better in my own list since I run the cheap recurrable creatures, so keep that in mind, but I'm thinking about running it instead of Skeletal Scrying right now.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
I litteraly won a game because of entwined promise of power I had to toxic deluge at 6 whiping a huge board u had but not only dud the 5 cards out me in a commanding postion but the 9/9 helped to close out a very close game. ( had to deluge at 6 to kill a sun titan or lose to combo ) In general I love promise of power. Now the idea if running both seems good I like scrying but I like moonlight bargain even more you can even use tutors to tutor chain if you have a reanimate. So why not both I'm sure im
sure I have weak slots but I'm need to find correct edits for more filter few more tiny mana cards.
I litteraly won a game because of entwined promise of power I had to toxic deluge at 6 whiping a huge board u had but not only dud the 5 cards out me in a commanding postion but the 9/9 helped to close out a very close game. ( had to deluge at 6 to kill a sun titan or lose to combo ) In general I love promise of power. Now the idea if running both seems good I like scrying but I like moonlight bargain even more you can even use tutors to tutor chain if you have a reanimate. So why not both I'm sure im
sure I have weak slots but I'm need to find correct edits for more filter few more tiny mana cards.
I totally forgot about the second ability of Promise of Power, never thought it could be relevant. I do have room for a couple of 5-cmc spells on my curve, but I have to cut cards too. Skeletal Scrying is an easy one. Not sure that I need both Promise of Power and Moonlight Bargain though. I don't expect to have my spells countered a lot in my meta, especially that kind of spell, so I usually only want 1 that I can tutor anyway (assuming I have already an instant-speed reanimation spell in hand).
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
- Skeletal Scrying: per above discussion
- All is Dust: I might be building an 8.5-Tails deck, and I don't want to play AiD in 3 decks
+ Moonlight Bargain: always wanted to try it, so here we go
+ Oblivion Stone: logic replacement for AiD, and it does target any permanent
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
So I made quite a few changes due to this group using the free partial pars mulligan rules I decide I could shave lands for some acceleration and filter so I cut 3 lands for chrome mox dark ritual jet medallion and sign on blood I also swapped in your Liliana for the acorn catapult which seems better with clamp. The voltron player has not been an issue so I tossed both the sac creatures to add in O stone. Grave betrayal never worked so moonlight bargain gets it's slot. Liquimetal coating gets replaced by squee's toy because it's only synergy was gate to phyrexia so 2 drop to a 1 drop with a way more funny art and it's better curve out into sign in blood or nights whisper.
I just edited the note on my iPhone so still in random order
Edit : recounted and I had more lands than I thought initially so
I'm still at 34 lands guess I was playing on 37 before not 35.. But now I'm at 34 and it feels perfect with the added filter / ramp
Yeah with free ramp you can definitely go down, I currently run 37 mana producing lands (38 with Maze).
Liquimetal Coating can target anything so I don't see a big advantage by running Squee's Toy. Yes, it only works with Gate to Phyrexia but artifact hate does exist in the format when you play multiplayer, so you can sometimes help someone using his Krosan Grip on that huge Nicol Bolas.
Anyway, the reason I run it is because I also got Tower of the Magistrate (which can transform auras into artifacts and then unattach the aura if the creature has protection from artifact, and it is also useful to prevent a creature to block or to block when you got both cards) and I also have Karn, so that's 3 cards working with it instead of 1. I know this is still pretty narrow but we play a lot of tutors.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
I feel like I play to much targeting if anything 2 small interactions is not enough for me to not use the targeter with a funny flavor text / picture. On that note I've been trying to squeeze in solemn simulacrum thus would be similar to your burnished hart but I need the body more since I don't play the small dudes. As good as jade monolith looks on paper it's felt like worst target card for me I don't like it's 4 cost or how useless it is without Horobi. The extra draw also finds more targeting cards so I'm fairly certain I'm
Adding solemn for jade monolith.
Jade Monolith saved my Crypt Ghast a couple of times from some ackward situations but I would still call it corner cases, so yeah, it's a lot of mana, but the difference is that you play it on turn 4, it's not a threat, your opponents don't care too much... and late game you get a repeatable targetting effect, which the cheaper artifacts like Coating lack (only 1 time a turn).
I just wanted to have at least one repeatable effect, and I know I have Hex Parasite but it's very vulnerable being a creature itself.
Jade Monolith makes blocking ackward for your opponents (when you don't have Horobi).
I can't say Solemn is bad though, it's a wonderful card. I play Burnished Hart because it ramps more, but it's +2 of card advantage in both cases.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Yea it has insane potential but like I had a game hex parasite ran away with I just think 4 mana is too much when by late game I'm in no short supply of targeting cards and I play quite a few wraths I've been loving life's finale whipe the board buried alive my opponent. I stole a WGD this way and combod off. Also pretty fun with puppateer clique. Solemn just too good and I need another body and he's my perfect choice for sac *****. Also one more good early game ramping card in a deck with lots of colorless lands.
So I made this deck on mtgo and had a blast testing it out won more than my fair share of games . Played 2 more paper sessions and won the most or tied fir most games both times. Now zedru went a little crazy with his prison deck and more than once the high density of colorless lands are an issue aginst this deck big time. On mtgo without partial pars the high density also have me awkward hands where I just wanted more swamps. Now I like all my target lands they are always good I don't feel like strip mine and friends are doing me any real favors.
So not very exciting but the voltron decks never been an issue lighthouse was nice but auto losing to magus of the moon / back to basics + humility is worse.
So I made this deck on mtgo and had a blast testing it out won more than my fair share of games . Played 2 more paper sessions and won the most or tied fir most games both times. Now zedru went a little crazy with his prison deck and more than once the high density of colorless lands are an issue aginst this deck big time. On mtgo without partial pars the high density also have me awkward hands where I just wanted more swamps. Now I like all my target lands they are always good I don't feel like strip mine and friends are doing me any real favors.
So not very exciting but the voltron decks never been an issue lighthouse was nice but auto losing to magus of the moon / back to basics + humility is worse.
The only cards I'm playing in what you removed is Dust Bowl and Arcane Lighthouse, so I already had a higher Swamp count than you and I still do even after you added 8 Swamps, so I definitely agree with you saying you weren't playing enough.
Lighthouse does the job for me but I'm playing against a couple of hexproof generals (Lazav mostly) in my meta and have a higher land count. Dust Bowl is a different case, I always try to have at least one way to destroy lands. In mono-black, it's either through a really narrow sorcery like Sinkhole (which can't destroy anything else than lands) or with a land (Wasteland in the likes). The reason to play Dust Bowl in this deck in particular is that I do get a lot of Swamps with Liliana and Thawing Glaciers, and I also run Deserted Temple which does synergyze a little bit with it (trading 2 lands a turn at the end of a game when it's 1v1 can definitely do a difference, and we have Coffers). It could be good in my mono-green deck but I have so much ways of destroying lands in mono-green that I don't need to run a land to destroy lands, so this is why it ended up in my mono-black deck.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Yea I had not enough swamps the shuffle effect from
Fetches was rarely relevant and I simply had too many colorless lands. Lighthouse was a great card it's just that deck is not that scary to me and the other guy spamming non basic land hate is. Top was also very underwhelming and in a slower deck diabolic tutor costing 4 didn't seem to matter nearly as much as it does in my faster combo decks in more difficult metas so that has been a good swap as well. I will say if there is one card I think you should try it's ugin it might just be my meta but that cards been incredible for me the gane I won last night I ulted him and it was over. His - abilty is wounderful for mono black leaving you with a targeting PW that quickly pumps to his win or anther whipe for problematic enchantments.
Yea I had not enough swamps the shuffle effect from
Fetches was rarely relevant and I simply had too many colorless lands. Lighthouse was a great card it's just that deck is not that scary to me and the other guy spamming non basic land hate is. Top was also very underwhelming and in a slower deck diabolic tutor costing 4 didn't seem to matter nearly as much as it does in my faster combo decks in more difficult metas so that has been a good swap as well. I will say if there is one card I think you should try it's ugin it might just be my meta but that cards been incredible for me the gane I won last night I ulted him and it was over. His - abilty is wounderful for mono black leaving you with a targeting PW that quickly pumps to his win or anther whipe for problematic enchantments.
Problem part with Ugin is exile and this is why I prefer All is Dust and Oblivion Stone by a huge margin, especially that last one since it has built-in targetting effect, and AiD is one less mana (usually more effective too, Ugin can't get 8-CMC+ permanents like Woodfall Primus), but it's really a meta-dependant anyway.
Diabolic Tutor is fine but since you are playing Entomb, I'd probably play Increasing Ambition over it just for the synergy between the 2 cards and because you can do more with Increasing when you have a lot of mana lategame.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
I really love the idea of this deck. Horobi's a very interesting creature that, as you've said, completely warps how our opponents play the game. I love how you've built the deck so far. Did notice a couple things though.
How has Soul Conduit been working out for you? It seems like an overly large mana investment for a card that could very well be dead in a lot of stages of the game. I certainly wouldn't want to play it unless I new I could outright kill someone with it. Is the life loss really enough for you that you would play that over something that might help you gain back the life?
Army of the Damned seems super win-more. You get lots of zombies, sure, but it's really slow and your opponents will have plenty of time to wipe the board before your next turn comes around. Also, that mana cost seems a bit steep for being that slow.
Moonlight Bargain seems...iffy. I have a hard time believing that there are really no cards that would be better in that slot, unless it's been an absolute blockbuster with you when you've played it.
Have you considered running more Wasteland-type effects? Nothing sucks more than having to waste a reanimation spell on your Horobi every turn because your opponent has something like a Skarrg, the Rage Pits that he keeps pointing at you in response to you doing things. The one Horobi deck I've played against got hosed by that exact same synergy.
Other than that, like I said, love the list. Just some things I thought about on taking a cursory glance.
I really love the idea of this deck. Horobi's a very interesting creature that, as you've said, completely warps how our opponents play the game. I love how you've built the deck so far. Did notice a couple things though.
Thank you for joining the conversation, I'm happy you like the idea of the deck!
How has Soul Conduit been working out for you? It seems like an overly large mana investment for a card that could very well be dead in a lot of stages of the game. I certainly wouldn't want to play it unless I new I could outright kill someone with it. Is the life loss really enough for you that you would play that over something that might help you gain back the life?
Soul Conduit has been awesome. The mana is not a problem at all, I always get to more than 12 mana in every game, I'm not playing against combo decks, so I usually have plenty of time. Currently, both Toxic Deluge and Hex Parasite can put an opponent to 1 or 2 life in conjunction with Soul Conduit. Also, looking at ways to gain life, I currently run Exsanguinate, Crypt Ghast (does that even count?) and Soul Conduit. I lose life with the aforedmentionned spells but also Moonlight Bargain, Erebos, Reanimate, Grim Tutor and Withering Boon. I usually lose 15-20 life by myself every game, sometimes. Other ways to gain life in mono-black includeKokusho, the Evening Star mostly, and things like Wurmcoil Engine. Wurmcoil isn't really good since it has to attack. Kokusho, I used to play, but it doesn't do enough overall fir 6 mana (same as Soul Conduit which replaces him). I always have something better to reanimate.
Army of the Damned seems super win-more. You get lots of zombies, sure, but it's really slow and your opponents will have plenty of time to wipe the board before your next turn comes around. Also, that mana cost seems a bit steep for being that slow.
Well, my opponents have 1 turn to wipe. And then, the turn after, they need to wipe again. I rarely lose a game when I cast Army of the Damned. It's a card I sometimes tutor since I don't really have any finisher. How is it a win-more? Can you elaborate on this? Let's say I have 20 mana with no cards in hand, I draw Demonic Tutor. What do I get? Playing Horobi doesn't do anything to win. Mikaeus and Sepulchral doesn't win either, it's just vulnerable creature that can be targetted. 13 2/2s? Now we are talking. But if you have any other idea, I'm definitely open to suggestions, especially after losing yesterday to Purphoros + Memory Plunder targetting... Army of the Damned. But I really don't see how it is a win-more since I wouldn't have won the games I won with it if I hadn't had it.
Moonlight Bargain seems...iffy. I have a hard time believing that there are really no cards that would be better in that slot, unless it's been an absolute blockbuster with you when you've played it.
Just started to play it, I actually got to cast it yesterday when facing lethal flying damage and I already had Corpse Dance in my hand, saw 4 lands and Rune-Scarred Demon (putting everything in the graveyard). I flashed Corpse Dance to get Rune-Scarred, tutored Soul Conduit, was able to block the flyer, Rune-Scarred died, I reanimated it again at EOT with Corpse Dance (no buyback this time) getting Puppeteer Clique, untap, cast Soul Conduit on my main phase, trade life with one of my opponent that I was now able to kill with Rune-Scarred and killed the other opponent with Clique reanimating one of his creature and attacking with it.
It's just 1 game and it's the only sample I have so far since it's the first time I play it. It did save me and even got me to win the game, I don't expect it to be that good everytime, but this is better than Read the Bones in every ways since it puts things in my graveyard and gets to dig 5 cards deep. It's definitely better than Skeletal Scrying, and it's the only card with Buried Alive that can put creatures from my deck into my graveyard (now that they banned Entomb), and it's instant speed. Hopefully it's always as good as I want it to be. Over Promise of Power, when I have total garbage on top of my library, I can opt to not lose any life, and it's instant speed, so for me it's already better (I don't actually need to draw 5 cards, I just need a tutor or the right card in my hand or in the graveyard). I play a lot of creatures that I want in the yard too.
Have you considered running more Wasteland-type effects? Nothing sucks more than having to waste a reanimation spell on your Horobi every turn because your opponent has something like a Skarrg, the Rage Pits that he keeps pointing at you in response to you doing things. The one Horobi deck I've played against got hosed by that exact same synergy.
Dust Bowl with 6 tutors proved to be enough at the moment. That's 7 outs to kill lands, which is more than enough. Also, Asceticism is a lot worse than Skarrg, the Rage Pits. I can't deal with Asceticism if I don't have Oblivion Stone (5 tutors, since we remove Expedition Map for that one). So only 6 outs. But you know what? I don't care. I just don't play Horobi. And when I do, I kill the whole board. They kill Horobi. No problem, I cast him again whenever I need it. In fact, I would call repeatable targetting effects annoying, but not a problem (when my opponent have it). Skarrg, the Rage Pits can hardly deal with Army of the Damned (I won't have Horobi in play usually in that case). Don't forget about Eldrazi Monument too.
In short, Horobi is situational, I play him when I need it. If I don't need him, he stays in the command zone.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Thanks for considering my questions. I'm still pretty new to the whole "deck critiquing" thing, but I figured it may help me now that I've started trying to come up with my own lists.
Glad to hear that Conduit's been putting in work. I figured it might given the life loss black tends to have in general, but I wasn't sure to what extent it would go to.
My point about Army being win-more is more in my own experience. My playgroup is chock full of wraths and counter effects, and the tokens would almost never survive a full go round. Plus, it doesn't seem to synergize too well with what the rest of your deck wants to do, and it kind of seemed like it was a random inclusion on first glance. However, all playgroups are different, and I recognize that you're not looking to run infinites. I certainly don't know of too many "I win" buttons in mono-black that don't involve some sort of infinite loop. I suppose that's why I don't really have a problem with combos in general, but to each their own.
Your other two points certainly seem solid to me. In regards to Entomb, I thought it was only banned in Duel Commander, but I suppose I could be wrong. Best of luck with the deck, and I'm looking forward to hopefully joining in on the conversation as it continues.
Thanks for considering my questions. I'm still pretty new to the whole "deck critiquing" thing, but I figured it may help me now that I've started trying to come up with my own lists.
Glad to hear that Conduit's been putting in work. I figured it might given the life loss black tends to have in general, but I wasn't sure to what extent it would go to.
My point about Army being win-more is more in my own experience. My playgroup is chock full of wraths and counter effects, and the tokens would almost never survive a full go round. Plus, it doesn't seem to synergize too well with what the rest of your deck wants to do, and it kind of seemed like it was a random inclusion on first glance. However, all playgroups are different, and I recognize that you're not looking to run infinites. I certainly don't know of too many "I win" buttons in mono-black that don't involve some sort of infinite loop. I suppose that's why I don't really have a problem with combos in general, but to each their own.
Your other two points certainly seem solid to me. In regards to Entomb, I thought it was only banned in Duel Commander, but I suppose I could be wrong. Best of luck with the deck, and I'm looking forward to hopefully joining in on the conversation as it continues.
The thing with Conduit is really Hexmage Parasite and Toxic Deluge, it works really well with these 2 cards since I can get at 1-2 life and I have a lot of tutors so it's pretty easy to achieve.
It's kind of hidden in my sig but, here we go for Entomb (and Sol Ring): My own rules when building a Commander deck: legal in both banlists, underrated general that I can build around while the deck can work without him/her, no infinite combo and try really hard not to play goodstuff cards.
About Army, I'm open to suggestions as I said, but I don't have really anything else right now that does what that thing does: win games out of nowhere with nothing else on the battlefield.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
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Sure, you can post your list and let me know how it's going, I may end up borrowing some of your ideas too since I'm still trying to find 3 cards to add to the deck.
I'm removing: Entomb, Necrotic Ooze, Nezumi Graverobber and Scuttlemutt.
I'm adding: Withered Wretch and 3 TBD cards...
Explanations for Withered Wretch vs Nezumi Graverobber: I will play Withered Wretch instead, I found out that 2 mana for each activations is actually a lot, 1 will be a lot better, also, the flip part is not what I need, I'm never using that 5 mana ability anyway (NEVER!) because people will either hate on it or graveyards are empty, and the fact that I can't exile from graveyards anymore once it's flipped it kinda bad too; Withered Wretch is better for devotion, its ability is only 1 colorless mana and is always available (it doesn't flip or anything), and it represents less a threat for my opponents so it should stay on the battlefield longer (can't be Skullclamped though, but we can't have everything, we pretty much have our own sac engine with Horobi anyway)
Edit: I'm looking at Corrupting Licid right now and what a weird card. A 2/2 creature that can become an aura enchanting TARGET creature, then you can pay to end this effect as a special action. If the ability wasn't a tap ability, that could actually be really well playable (altough, as a creature, it's easy to destroy, and it still gets destroyed even if it gets transformed in response).
You could play Head Games what a fun political card (since you are building a multiplayer-only deck) when you cannot get rid of something specific, just make one of your opponent does it for you by getting what he wants at the same time.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Dark Deal: sadly not Wheel of Fortune, too much of card disadvantage on that one (-1 for everyone and -2 for me)
Barter in Blood: I don't have any true sac effects right now; this is a good one
Fated Return: playtested previously and the mana cost was too high, but still, it makes Horobi indestructible and works with any graveyard
Endless Cockroaches: another previously tested card, problem is it doesn't work with Buried Alive
Disciple of Bolas: doesn't work with Fleshwrither since it's an ETB, so Erebos is prefered here, even for reanimation
Diabolic Tutor: it's always an option, now that I have Grim Tutor; it's probably the best 4-cmc tutor in black (there aren't a lot actually)
Death Denied: not worth it, I prefer reanimating creatures (see better reanimation spells below)
Damnable Pact: didn't like it in my playtesting session, Exsanguinate is a better card and Damnable Pact versatility comes at a price; if it goes in, Skeletal Scrying goes out
Withering Boon: just a really surprising card, it's definitely not bad in a deck with such a high density of reanimating spells that can target cards in my opponent's graveyard (currently 8), and it's great by itself
Wake the Dead: mostly interesting with ETB triggers or to use Horobi+Hex Parasite; also works well with Mikaeus, so I could say it synergises with maybe 6-7 cards in the whole deck, which isn't enough IMO
Victimize: I already heard that this card was unfair. It might just be. Interesting Gatherer ruling: This card can be used to put both parts of the B.F.M. (Big Furry Monster) onto the battlefield at once.
Vengeful Pharaoh: it may discourages your opponents from attacking you, if it's on the battlefield, you can sac or destroy it; also works kinda well with Horobi, since it does target an attacking creature, which means that the ability won't resolve and it will stay in the graveyard (which is mainly what I would use this for); also, some tricks with first/double strikers are possible
Shrouded Lore: not good enough in my opinion when we have Xiahou-Dun, but this is a budget replacement that could work for you
Rescue from the Underworld: the instant counterpart of Victimize, except we return the sacced creature + 1 other creature; both cards are good, tough choice, Recue protects from Wrath effects
Life's Finale: never liked this card because it's time consuming to search through a deck you don't know, but if there is a deck you want to play this, it's definitely in the same deck that plays Animate Dead and friends
Killing Wave: I prefer Deluge and Mutilate (or even Black Sun's Zenith, that I'm not even considering at this point)
Infernal Tutor: the last tutor to hand with cmc < 3 that I don't play, but only works with hellbent, or it can get a Swamp; works well with Mindslicer sac in response but I think it's too narrow, Diabolic Intent is way easier to get working.
Genju of the Fens: with Urborg, Horobi and Hex Parasite in play, this basically reads: 2B(P/B): Destroy target land.. Any number of times you want. Isn't that... good? Who needs Sinkhole? It does need too much setup for my tastes though, so I will stick with Dust Bowl for now.
Anvil of Bogardan: we like cards in graveyards, generally speaking
Ashnod's Altar: infinite combo engine, which I don't want to play
Barl's Cage: not a really exciting ability, and 4+3N is a lot to kill creatures
Baton of Morale: if you'd like to explain what bending does to every new player you meet, play this card (be sure to read the actual ruling too); 2+2N is fine with Horobi
Blasting Station: mostly a combo card, doesn't really work well with my current list but someone could make it work
Candelabra of Tawnos: why is this thing legal in 1v1? in any case, I'm not gonna buy this thing, but it works with Coffers and Deserted Temple if you are the type of guy that likes to tap Coffers 4 times in the same turn for a 40 mana Exsanguinate
Claws of Gix: if you go for the stax package, you will need this, just sac your stax card at EOT before winning
Coercive Portal: I never really liked this card, it's better suited for 1v1 play when you can decide to draw a card every turn and don't have access to Phyrexian Arena
Darksteel Garrison: indestructible for Coffers, or just a colorless targetting effect once per turn cycle; it would be great if it was indestructible itself too
Distorting Lens: I prefer Liquimetal Coating because of its synergy with Karn
Erratic Portal: I don't like this card in this deck, but it has to be considered, especially with ETB triggers
Glaring Spotlight: doesn't get around shroud and giving hexproof to my creature is mostly meaningless, indestructible would be good though
Jade Monolith: already suggested by Rumpy5897; 4+N is better than 2+2N (Baton of Morale) in nearly any case, and damage redirection is also better than Banding is nearly any case although irrevelant in most cases too
Masticore: repeatable creature targetting, can be reanimated and regenerated; sadly, the discarding can be bad sometimes, but it's a really strong choice for any Horobi deck, while 4+2N is also a lot
Mirror Universe: Soul Conduit's old brother with timing restriction and sac instead of paying. I prefer the repeatability of Soul Conduit and the versatility of not having a timing restriction, and 6+6 mana shouldn't be a problem for this deck anyway
Mycosynth Lattice: combo with Karn (and possibly a lot of other cards not considered here) if you are into this, and good with Preator's Grasp to play colored spells
Nullstone Gargoyle: we can cheat this into play, and we can deal with creatures if we already have a targetting effect in play and Horobi
Oblivion Stone: when fate counters actually kill permanents... definitely good but I'm not facing enough problematic enchantments to run it (the main use still has to be its second ability, because 3+4N and tap is too much only to kill creatures)
Predator, Flagship: 5+2N for repeatable creature targetting with something actually relevant by itself: flying. Also, for 5+2N+5T, we can destroy something without Horobi. I prefer Jade Monolith, but this is an alternative.
Scale of Chiss-Gloria and Tooth of Chiss-Gloria: these have been mentionned previously here and are commonly accepted as totally playable cards in Horobi; I, however, disagree with that. The effect is in most cases totally useless, so it's basically a 3-cmc instant speed Liquimetal Coating with no specific synergy in the deck. I definitely prefer repeatable effects when available, and Liquimetal has a specific role in the deck with Karn (dealing with what mono-black can't deal)
Solemn Simulacrum: I prefer Burnished Hart for this deck, but it probably comes down to personal preferences
Staff of Domination: 3+4N-1 to untap or just target creatures, 3+5N-1 to tap creatures or 3+6N-1 to draw cards; it's versatile, but costs a lot of mana.
That Which was Taken: this is actually useful, but it has to stay in play to work, and otherwise it's 5+4T to target a permanent. Could be good with Myojin I guess.
Stuffy Doll: indestructible is good with Horobi but this doesn't do much
Colossus of Akros: fun to reanimate
Myojin of Night's Reach: another spirit but not really good with reanimation spells
He Who Hungers: I took a specific attention for the couple of Soulshift 4+ cards since it's a mechanic that works well with Horobi and it's the only one that is playable; it's however not good enough in my current list without further support (Bloodghast and Nether Traitor are the only 2 other spirits right now, both recurrable though so I will keep an eye on that one)
So, here are the changes:
- Entomb: banned
- Necrotic Ooze: too often a vanilla, yes it's good with Karn, Fleshwrither, Geth, Xiahou Dun, Hex Parasite, Erebos and Nezumi Graverobber but see... that's only 7 creatures, I need 1 of them in the graveyard and most of the times, it's not the one I need, also it's a little worse without Entomb, and because I have a high density of tutors, that's never a card I'm tutoring for, I will get what I need or something to reanimate what I need
- Scuttlemutt: really underwhelming tbh, yes it's versatile, but it's either a bad mana rock or a bad targetting effect
- Nezumi Graverobber: I will play Withered Wretch instead, I found out that 2 mana for each activations is actually a lot, 1 will be a lot better, also, the flip part is not what I need, I'm never using that 5 mana ability anyway (NEVER!) because people will either hate on it or graveyards are empty, and the fact that I can't exile from graveyards anymore once it's flipped it kinda bad too; Withered Wretch is better for devotion, its ability is only 1 colorless mana and is always available (it doesn't flip or anything), and it represents less a threat for my opponents so it should stay on the battlefield longer (can't be Skullclamped though, but we can't have everything, we pretty much have our own sac engine with Horobi anyway)
+ Withered Wretch: for the reasons stated above on removing Nezumi Graverobber.
+ Withering Boon: a black Essence Scatter, which is a decent spell by itself, but that's even better when your opponents don't expect it because you are playing mono-black, and that's even better when you reanimate their creature right after countering it. It must feel so good that I'm already really excited about playing this card...
+ Jade Monolith: it's less vulnerable than Hex Parasite (because of Horobi) and it has multiple activations (Cauldron of Souls doesn't); for these reasons, at 4+N, I give this card the Horobi's Seal of Approval, and in a couple of cases, the damage redirection could be useful, especially with Soul Conduit. It will take the place of Scuttlemutt.
+ Diabolic Tutor: Going to be Diabolic Tutor for now, but if something better is released or is suggested, it should go instead of this 4-cmc tutor.
All is Dust and Oblivion Stone could be useful. I guess. I mean, I don't have any easy way to deal with enchantments, Karn+Liquimetal work but it's not easy. I can rely on my other opponents to deal with enchantments also, and on 1v1 I may just totally ignore any enchantment.
Gods? Nylea and Thassa do mostly nothing and are not played much in the format. Heliod is creature-centric and I'm playing a deck that destroys creatures every turn, so whatever. Erebos and Purphoros? I can get Exsanguinate in both cases and prepare a lot of mana for it, and with the right timing, that should do it. I also have Soul Conduit for Purphoros.
Do I need to play All is Dust? That's the question. Could I afford to play it, actually? It does kill nearly every non-land permanents in my deck. That's questionnable. Also, it doesn't work really well against Commanders because of the Command zone, so I'm still stuck with the same problems if Purphoros is played as a general for example. With the new no-tuck rule, there is no easy way to get rid multiple times of Gods, that's just a new reality and we all have to focus on our gameplan and move on. That's my main argument against playing dedicated hate towards Gods (which I can't, really, anyway).
I already run both O-Stone and AiD and my other decks, I also use Perilous Vault in my red deck and certainly don't like to exile permanents in Horobi anyway. Withered Boon is a response to Gods, if not played as a General. What about Greater Auramancy + Sterling Grove? I think it's long enough for such a deck to set up a win condition properly for me to just completely ignore that kind of situations, there will always be some kind of 2-card lock like Teferi+Knowledge Pool (I can actually manage that one if I can target Teferi) and that's part of the game too. It's definitely a meta call though, but I think I will just accept that I can't deal with every board situation with mono-black and just stay focused on my own gameplan instead, while I do have outs to destroy enchantments and artifacts if I really need it.
That doesn't solve the 99th card problem though.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
So for now, Diabolic Tutor is really back, I looked at the tutor primer here: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/198657-the-comprehensive-guide-to-black-tutors-primer
And I don't really see anything better, Cruel Tutor is a really bad Vampiric tutor, Infernal Tutor needs to be built around, Tainted Pact definitely doesn't work here and all the 1-cmc suicide tutors (ex. Demonic Consultation) aren't what I want, it's more for combo builds ala Doomsday. The only other interesting option is Corpse Connoisseur, and that would kind of an Entomb replacement, but limited to creatures, sorcery speed and 4-5 mana. Not what I want, I'll stick with Buried Alive and tutor Buried Alive with Diabolic Tutor if I really need to put creatures in my graveyard...
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
I will try it now.
- Diabolic Tutor
+ All is Dust
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
2 Mana crypt
3 glided lotus
4 necropotence
5 hex parasite
6 crypt Ghast
7 Sensei's divining top
8 night's whisper
9 bitter blossom
10 jade monolith
11 imperial seal
12 Sidisi undead visier
13 grave titan
14 sheoldred whispering one
15 phyrexian arena
16 staff of nin
17 acorn catapult
18 touch of darkness
19 cauldron of souls
20 toxic deluge
21 Grave pact
22 Erebos god of the dead
23 Karn liberated
24 ugin the spirit dragon
25 phyrexian reclamation
26 vampiric tutor
27 demonic tutor
28 diabolic intent
29 Grim tutor
30 All is dust
31 Yawgmoth 's Will
33 Sepulcher Primordial
34 gate to phyrexia
35 disciple of bolas
36 grave born muse
37 mimic vat
38 Promise of power
39 expidition map
41 candelabra of Tawnos
42 fleshbag marauder
43 kokusho the evening star
44 Buried alive
45 entomb
46 makeshift manaquin
47 Corpse dance
48 Profane command
49 Mindslicer
50 liquimetal coating
51 animate dead
52 necromancy
53 reanimate
54 Exsanguinate
55 Life's Finale
56 mikaius the unhallowed
57 read the bones
58 Drana kalastria bloodchief
59 puppeteer clique
60 Xiao Dun the one eyed
61 gray merchant of asphodel
62 Grave betrayal
63 rune scar demon
64 merciless executioner
65 Horobi Deaths wail
35 lands
65 Ancient tomb
66 strip mine
67 wasteland
68 dust bowl
69 arcane lighthouse
70 reliquary tower
71 tower of the magistrate
72 maze of ith
73 urborg
74 Shizo deaths storehouse
75 desert
76 Volraths stronghold
77 phyrexian tower
78 cabal coffers
79 urborg tomb of yawgmoth
80 Nykthos shrine to nyx
81 deserted temple
82 verdant catacombs
83 marsh flats
84 bloodstained mire
85 polluted delta
14 swamps
Sorry it's not in any real order I just flipped through the deck and typed it up on my iPhone it's been an absolute blast to play in my casual meta very political very manipulative lots if cool grave chains. Had a game 2 dats ago at a buddy's house where sepulcher primordial took me from almost nothing to watch me cast runescar demon on everyone's turn with that prophet of Kruphix lol. Thanks for the good work on the op I'm loving Horobi as a general in slower creature based metas. I had the highest win % 3 session in a row with much more powerful decks around to to the sheer political power of Horobi.
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
No problem, really happy to finally see your list. I'm also happy that you are enjoying the deck!
Yes, Horobi is very political to play, you can decide at anytime that it's time to kill a couple of creatures, and with that land package (since you are also playing Maze of Ith and Desert), it's pretty easy to be able to target 2 or 3 creatures every turn. It's not a deck that wins fast, but in any creature-heavy meta (which is what Commander usually is), Horobi can hold up a really long time until he gets to start doing degenerate things. One of which includes Sepulchral Primordial as you noted. This creature is just amazing, it just opens so many possibilities. Combined with Corpse Dance and your opponent's Diluvian Primordial, you are sure to have a lot of fun (not your opponents though, lol).
I have a couple of questions about your lists. First, how is Grave Betrayal doing for you? I thought it was a little bit a win-more card, but I guess it has its use. But it's still 7 mana. Also, you are playing Ugin. Why exile in a reanimator deck? I don't understand that choice. Since you are already playing Liquimetal Coating, Karn, Silver Golem would be a nice fit to destroy a permanent every turn with Horobi out. Not sure that Karn (the Planeswalker) is really good here, it just sounds like a goodstuff card, but I don't see how he really interacts with the deck (targetting only 1 player or only 1 permanent at a time, and exiling instead of destroying, we can deal with graveyards with Withered Wretch instead when we really need exile and All is Dust can do it against indestructible permanents). Other choice I don't understand is Makeshift Mannequin over either Fated Return or Goryo's Vengence, and since you don't have Dance of the Dead either, that's quite an expansive reanimation spell. Instant speed is good, which is why I play both Goryo's Vengence and Corpe Dance, but mana cost is important, which is why I don't run Fated Return anymore. Makeshift Mannequin? Never really considered it.
You don't run the Eldrazi Monument package, which is totally fine, but I noticed you are running a lot of sac effects (the Fleshbag Marauder kind), how is it doing for you? It is really necessary in your meta with Horobi? Horobi already deals with creatures easily, Arcane Lighthouse gets around hexproof and Toxic Deluge, Mutilate and All is Dust are all good against indestructible creatures, so I'm a little bit surprised about the addition of these 1-shot effects.
The last big change I see is that you use a lot of Sign in Bloods type of card (without Sign in Blood itself), which is totally fine too, only a preference thing. With the high density of tutors, I tend to rely more on Skullclamp when I need to draw a couple of cards, but that's also because I'm running the Eldrazi Monument package with Bloodghast, Skeleton and Champion.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
I definitely need to think about it, since I don't really like Skeletal Scrying right now. Also, Moonlight Bargain looks better than Promise of Power to me, especially since Entomb is gone. I don't need to draw 5, but I may need 2 or 3 cards from my top 5, and I may want to put Carrionette, Reassembling Skeleton, Bloodghast, Nether Traitor, Bloodsoaked Champion or Increasing Ambition in my graveyard. If I have any reanimation spell, it could be good to discard a high-cmc creature too. Also, Moonlight Bargain doesn't [b]draw[/c] cards. It makes me look at cards, then put cards in my graveyard or my hand. This is a slight detail, but it's something that makes a difference against a Consecrated Sphinx for example. And I don't have to reveal the cards that I put in my hand. Instant speed is so good.
What do you think Moxnix, since you are playing Promise of Power? Instant speed look at 5 with Moonlight Bargain, see Corpse Dance and Sepulchral Primordial... really good, isn't it?
Finally, Yawgmoth's Bargain is also something.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
I understand now. We play in quite different metas and that's why we end up with different packages. I wouldn't call the Eldrazi Monument inconsistent, not in a deck that runs nearly 10 tutors, especially with your list running even more due to using only the US banlist and all the draw spells you have, but I completely understand how it may not work for you since you need those slots for other cards (it's really taking a couple of slots since I do need the cheap recurrable creatures and Skullclamp kind of goes with it, so that's nearly 10 cards in my deck).
I posted at the same time you responded so just to be sure: what are your thoughts on Moonlight Bargain isntead of Promise of Power, since you are playing the latter? It is written in such a way that you don't actually "draw" the cards, and it also acts as a discard enabler for your reanimation spells. Finally, it is instant speed, which is good with Corpse Dance or any other instant reanimation spell (you play Makeshift Mannequin too right now). I feel like this is a little better in my own list since I run the cheap recurrable creatures, so keep that in mind, but I'm thinking about running it instead of Skeletal Scrying right now.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
sure I have weak slots but I'm need to find correct edits for more filter few more tiny mana cards.
Ps I <3 desert.
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
I totally forgot about the second ability of Promise of Power, never thought it could be relevant. I do have room for a couple of 5-cmc spells on my curve, but I have to cut cards too. Skeletal Scrying is an easy one. Not sure that I need both Promise of Power and Moonlight Bargain though. I don't expect to have my spells countered a lot in my meta, especially that kind of spell, so I usually only want 1 that I can tutor anyway (assuming I have already an instant-speed reanimation spell in hand).
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
- Skeletal Scrying: per above discussion
- All is Dust: I might be building an 8.5-Tails deck, and I don't want to play AiD in 3 decks
+ Moonlight Bargain: always wanted to try it, so here we go
+ Oblivion Stone: logic replacement for AiD, and it does target any permanent
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
2 Mana crypt
3 glided lotus
4 necropotence
5 hex parasite
6 crypt Ghast
7 Sensei's divining top
8 night's whisper
9 bitter blossom
10 jade monolith
11 imperial seal
12 Sidisi undead visier
13 grave titan
14 sheoldred whispering one
15 phyrexian arena
16 staff of nin
17 sign in blood
18 touch of darkness
19 cauldron of souls
20 toxic deluge
21 Grave pact
22 Erebos god of the dead
23 Karn liberated
24 ugin the spirit dragon
25 phyrexian reclamation
26 vampiric tutor
27 demonic tutor
28 diabolic intent
29 Grim tutor
30 All is dust
31 Yawgmoth 's Will
32 Sepulcher Primordial
33 gate to phyrexia
34 disciple of bolas
35 grave born muse
36 mimic vat
37 Promise of power
38 expidition map
39 candelabra of Tawnos
40 moonlight bargain
41 kokusho the evening star
42 Jet medallion
43 entomb
44 makeshift manaquin
45 Corpse dance
46 Profane command
47 Mindslicer
48 squee's toy
49 animate dead
50 necromancy
51 reanimate
52 Exsanguinate
53 Life's Finale
54 mikaius the unhallowed
55 read the bones
56 Drana kalastria bloodchief
57 puppeteer clique
58 Xiao Dun the one eyed
59 gray merchant of asphodel
60 Chrome mox
61 rune scar demon
62 buried alive
63 dark ritual
64 Liliana of dark realms
65 oblivion stone
66 Horobi Deaths wail
34 lands
68 Ancient tomb
69 strip mine
70 wasteland
71 dust bowl
72 arcane lighthouse
73 tower of the magistrate
74 maze of ith
75 urborg
76 Shizo deaths storehouse
77 desert
78 Volraths stronghold
79 phyrexian tower
80 cabal coffers
81 urborg tomb of yawgmoth
82 Nykthos shrine to nyx
83 deserted temple
4 fetch lands
14 swamps
I just edited the note on my iPhone so still in random order
Edit : recounted and I had more lands than I thought initially so
I'm still at 34 lands guess I was playing on 37 before not 35.. But now I'm at 34 and it feels perfect with the added filter / ramp
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
Liquimetal Coating can target anything so I don't see a big advantage by running Squee's Toy. Yes, it only works with Gate to Phyrexia but artifact hate does exist in the format when you play multiplayer, so you can sometimes help someone using his Krosan Grip on that huge Nicol Bolas.
Anyway, the reason I run it is because I also got Tower of the Magistrate (which can transform auras into artifacts and then unattach the aura if the creature has protection from artifact, and it is also useful to prevent a creature to block or to block when you got both cards) and I also have Karn, so that's 3 cards working with it instead of 1. I know this is still pretty narrow but we play a lot of tutors.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Adding solemn for jade monolith.
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
I just wanted to have at least one repeatable effect, and I know I have Hex Parasite but it's very vulnerable being a creature itself.
Jade Monolith makes blocking ackward for your opponents (when you don't have Horobi).
I can't say Solemn is bad though, it's a wonderful card. I play Burnished Hart because it ramps more, but it's +2 of card advantage in both cases.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
- Sensei's divining top
- 4 fetch lands
- wasteland
- dustbowl
- strip mine
- arcane lighthouse
+ diabolic tutor
+ 8 swamps
So not very exciting but the voltron decks never been an issue lighthouse was nice but auto losing to magus of the moon / back to basics + humility is worse.
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
The only cards I'm playing in what you removed is Dust Bowl and Arcane Lighthouse, so I already had a higher Swamp count than you and I still do even after you added 8 Swamps, so I definitely agree with you saying you weren't playing enough.
Lighthouse does the job for me but I'm playing against a couple of hexproof generals (Lazav mostly) in my meta and have a higher land count. Dust Bowl is a different case, I always try to have at least one way to destroy lands. In mono-black, it's either through a really narrow sorcery like Sinkhole (which can't destroy anything else than lands) or with a land (Wasteland in the likes). The reason to play Dust Bowl in this deck in particular is that I do get a lot of Swamps with Liliana and Thawing Glaciers, and I also run Deserted Temple which does synergyze a little bit with it (trading 2 lands a turn at the end of a game when it's 1v1 can definitely do a difference, and we have Coffers). It could be good in my mono-green deck but I have so much ways of destroying lands in mono-green that I don't need to run a land to destroy lands, so this is why it ended up in my mono-black deck.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Fetches was rarely relevant and I simply had too many colorless lands. Lighthouse was a great card it's just that deck is not that scary to me and the other guy spamming non basic land hate is. Top was also very underwhelming and in a slower deck diabolic tutor costing 4 didn't seem to matter nearly as much as it does in my faster combo decks in more difficult metas so that has been a good swap as well. I will say if there is one card I think you should try it's ugin it might just be my meta but that cards been incredible for me the gane I won last night I ulted him and it was over. His - abilty is wounderful for mono black leaving you with a targeting PW that quickly pumps to his win or anther whipe for problematic enchantments.
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
Problem part with Ugin is exile and this is why I prefer All is Dust and Oblivion Stone by a huge margin, especially that last one since it has built-in targetting effect, and AiD is one less mana (usually more effective too, Ugin can't get 8-CMC+ permanents like Woodfall Primus), but it's really a meta-dependant anyway.
Diabolic Tutor is fine but since you are playing Entomb, I'd probably play Increasing Ambition over it just for the synergy between the 2 cards and because you can do more with Increasing when you have a lot of mana lategame.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
How has Soul Conduit been working out for you? It seems like an overly large mana investment for a card that could very well be dead in a lot of stages of the game. I certainly wouldn't want to play it unless I new I could outright kill someone with it. Is the life loss really enough for you that you would play that over something that might help you gain back the life?
Army of the Damned seems super win-more. You get lots of zombies, sure, but it's really slow and your opponents will have plenty of time to wipe the board before your next turn comes around. Also, that mana cost seems a bit steep for being that slow.
Moonlight Bargain seems...iffy. I have a hard time believing that there are really no cards that would be better in that slot, unless it's been an absolute blockbuster with you when you've played it.
Have you considered running more Wasteland-type effects? Nothing sucks more than having to waste a reanimation spell on your Horobi every turn because your opponent has something like a Skarrg, the Rage Pits that he keeps pointing at you in response to you doing things. The one Horobi deck I've played against got hosed by that exact same synergy.
Other than that, like I said, love the list. Just some things I thought about on taking a cursory glance.
IRL: Patron of the Moon
Soul Conduit has been awesome. The mana is not a problem at all, I always get to more than 12 mana in every game, I'm not playing against combo decks, so I usually have plenty of time. Currently, both Toxic Deluge and Hex Parasite can put an opponent to 1 or 2 life in conjunction with Soul Conduit. Also, looking at ways to gain life, I currently run Exsanguinate, Crypt Ghast (does that even count?) and Soul Conduit. I lose life with the aforedmentionned spells but also Moonlight Bargain, Erebos, Reanimate, Grim Tutor and Withering Boon. I usually lose 15-20 life by myself every game, sometimes. Other ways to gain life in mono-black includeKokusho, the Evening Star mostly, and things like Wurmcoil Engine. Wurmcoil isn't really good since it has to attack. Kokusho, I used to play, but it doesn't do enough overall fir 6 mana (same as Soul Conduit which replaces him). I always have something better to reanimate.
Well, my opponents have 1 turn to wipe. And then, the turn after, they need to wipe again. I rarely lose a game when I cast Army of the Damned. It's a card I sometimes tutor since I don't really have any finisher. How is it a win-more? Can you elaborate on this? Let's say I have 20 mana with no cards in hand, I draw Demonic Tutor. What do I get? Playing Horobi doesn't do anything to win. Mikaeus and Sepulchral doesn't win either, it's just vulnerable creature that can be targetted. 13 2/2s? Now we are talking. But if you have any other idea, I'm definitely open to suggestions, especially after losing yesterday to Purphoros + Memory Plunder targetting... Army of the Damned. But I really don't see how it is a win-more since I wouldn't have won the games I won with it if I hadn't had it.
Just started to play it, I actually got to cast it yesterday when facing lethal flying damage and I already had Corpse Dance in my hand, saw 4 lands and Rune-Scarred Demon (putting everything in the graveyard). I flashed Corpse Dance to get Rune-Scarred, tutored Soul Conduit, was able to block the flyer, Rune-Scarred died, I reanimated it again at EOT with Corpse Dance (no buyback this time) getting Puppeteer Clique, untap, cast Soul Conduit on my main phase, trade life with one of my opponent that I was now able to kill with Rune-Scarred and killed the other opponent with Clique reanimating one of his creature and attacking with it.
It's just 1 game and it's the only sample I have so far since it's the first time I play it. It did save me and even got me to win the game, I don't expect it to be that good everytime, but this is better than Read the Bones in every ways since it puts things in my graveyard and gets to dig 5 cards deep. It's definitely better than Skeletal Scrying, and it's the only card with Buried Alive that can put creatures from my deck into my graveyard (now that they banned Entomb), and it's instant speed. Hopefully it's always as good as I want it to be. Over Promise of Power, when I have total garbage on top of my library, I can opt to not lose any life, and it's instant speed, so for me it's already better (I don't actually need to draw 5 cards, I just need a tutor or the right card in my hand or in the graveyard). I play a lot of creatures that I want in the yard too.
Dust Bowl with 6 tutors proved to be enough at the moment. That's 7 outs to kill lands, which is more than enough. Also, Asceticism is a lot worse than Skarrg, the Rage Pits. I can't deal with Asceticism if I don't have Oblivion Stone (5 tutors, since we remove Expedition Map for that one). So only 6 outs. But you know what? I don't care. I just don't play Horobi. And when I do, I kill the whole board. They kill Horobi. No problem, I cast him again whenever I need it. In fact, I would call repeatable targetting effects annoying, but not a problem (when my opponent have it). Skarrg, the Rage Pits can hardly deal with Army of the Damned (I won't have Horobi in play usually in that case). Don't forget about Eldrazi Monument too.
In short, Horobi is situational, I play him when I need it. If I don't need him, he stays in the command zone.
Let me know what you think about my answers!
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Glad to hear that Conduit's been putting in work. I figured it might given the life loss black tends to have in general, but I wasn't sure to what extent it would go to.
My point about Army being win-more is more in my own experience. My playgroup is chock full of wraths and counter effects, and the tokens would almost never survive a full go round. Plus, it doesn't seem to synergize too well with what the rest of your deck wants to do, and it kind of seemed like it was a random inclusion on first glance. However, all playgroups are different, and I recognize that you're not looking to run infinites. I certainly don't know of too many "I win" buttons in mono-black that don't involve some sort of infinite loop. I suppose that's why I don't really have a problem with combos in general, but to each their own.
Your other two points certainly seem solid to me. In regards to Entomb, I thought it was only banned in Duel Commander, but I suppose I could be wrong. Best of luck with the deck, and I'm looking forward to hopefully joining in on the conversation as it continues.
IRL: Patron of the Moon
The thing with Conduit is really Hexmage Parasite and Toxic Deluge, it works really well with these 2 cards since I can get at 1-2 life and I have a lot of tutors so it's pretty easy to achieve.
It's kind of hidden in my sig but, here we go for Entomb (and Sol Ring):
My own rules when building a Commander deck: legal in both banlists, underrated general that I can build around while the deck can work without him/her, no infinite combo and try really hard not to play goodstuff cards.
About Army, I'm open to suggestions as I said, but I don't have really anything else right now that does what that thing does: win games out of nowhere with nothing else on the battlefield.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.