For reference, I had a conversation with the Nin player after the game about her reasoning for taking to tutor; she wasn't intending to use the mana to win, she just wanted to cast Imperial Recruiter *and* Hammer of Purphorus next turn.
That line of logic is why the card sees success. I think it's only good because everybody in the game thinks that they will get more use out of the value than everyone else. Like playing into a Rhystic Study, it's "blatantly wrong", but so is sandbagging and doing absolutely nothing. Either way, your particular combo was probably my favorite so far, up there with my Codex Shredder combo.
Went up to a local college town Friday - Saturday night, and had a blast. Lots of playtesting, and I'm thoroughly satisfied with the results.
I cut Crucible of Worlds - the card is too slow to be of use, and I was trading it away that day. I added Grisly Salvage because I had one on me, but it's not staying in. Not sure what the best replacement for Crucible of Worlds is - I could play some slotfiller like Life from the Loam or Restore, but I think I just want another piece of utility. I'll update the primer on that once I've made a decision.
Pattern of Rebirth is nutty. Not only is it just Baleful Force or Rune-Scarred Demon half the time, it makes comboing super easy. Goes infinite with Woodfall Primus and a sac outlet (because it finds Mikeaus), which I did a number of times. It's also good with Phyrexian Tower, and the creature is often Dryad Arbor because I can fetch it off my green fetches. The fact that I can get stuff like Reclamation Sage or E Wit at instant speed is just added utility.
Liliana Vess is good - the repeatable tutor is nice, and having something like Baleful Force as a blocker will deter most of my opponents from swinging in. It's also a build-your--own Entomb if I want it to be. Vraska is also playable - not great, and ultimately cuttable, but still earned its spot in the deck fairly. I won a game with Assassin tokens! Really helps my long game.
Went up to a local college town Friday - Saturday night, and had a blast. Lots of playtesting, and I'm thoroughly satisfied with the results.
I cut Crucible of Worlds - the card is too slow to be of use, and I was trading it away that day. I added Grisly Salvage because I had one on me, but it's not staying in. Not sure what the best replacement for Crucible of Worlds is - I could play some slotfiller like Life from the Loam or Restore, but I think I just want another piece of utility. I'll update the primer on that once I've made a decision.
Pattern of Rebirth is nutty. Not only is it just Baleful Force or Rune-Scarred Demon half the time, it makes comboing super easy. Goes infinite with Woodfall Primus and a sac outlet (because it finds Mikeaus), which I did a number of times. It's also good with Phyrexian Tower, and the creature is often Dryad Arbor because I can fetch it off my green fetches. The fact that I can get stuff like Reclamation Sage or E Wit at instant speed is just added utility.
Liliana Vess is good - the repeatable tutor is nice, and having something like Baleful Force as a blocker will deter most of my opponents from swinging in. It's also a build-your--own Entomb if I want it to be. Vraska is also playable - not great, and ultimately cuttable, but still earned its spot in the deck fairly. I won a game with Assassin tokens! Really helps my long game.
Need to cut Rec Sage, I think.
Honestly, I've felt the same about Crucible most times I've drawn it in multiple lists. With reanimator combo, Life from the Loam seems better, but ultimately useless unless your meta is LD heavy, or you're doing something with all those lands.
I run Pattern of Rebirth in my Prossh deck. In combo, I feel that more tutors is invaluable. Especially one like this with multiple sac outlets. Like you said, without a sac outlet, it feels like a "shields up" kind of card, similar to Academy Rector in white.
Vess is good, but feels a bit expensive (I could be wrong, Black and Green can generate some insane mana). Do you find that she lives more than one round of turns?
Honestly, I've felt the same about Crucible most times I've drawn it in multiple lists. With reanimator combo, Life from the Loam seems better, but ultimately useless unless your meta is LD heavy, or you're doing something with all those lands.
I run Pattern of Rebirth in my Prossh deck. In combo, I feel that more tutors is invaluable. Especially one like this with multiple sac outlets. Like you said, without a sac outlet, it feels like a "shields up" kind of card, similar to Academy Rector in white.
Vess is good, but feels a bit expensive (I could be wrong, Black and Green can generate some insane mana). Do you find that she lives more than one round of turns?
I agree with all of that, especially the comment on Pattern of Rebirth. Unless I have no other good plays, I wouldn't cast Vess into a field of creatures. She is a bit expensive but often winds up being a repeatable tutor.
Avvina's had my deck for awhile. Waiting on a comprehensive post on his experiences with it. The short run of it is "Everything's really good except Song of the Dryads." I still want to test the card more myself, but I'll probably cut it.
I think the new green siege could be good? For the ramp option obviousy.
Avvina's had my deck for awhile. Waiting on a comprehensive post on his experiences with it. The short run of it is "Everything's really good except Song of the Dryads." I still want to test the card more myself, but I'll probably cut it.
I think the new green siege could be good? For the ramp option obviousy.
It seems pretty good, but I'm not convinced it's a format staple just yet. I guess it's just as good as Kodama's Reach or something. But doesn't fix your colors.
I think the new green siege could be good? For the ramp option obviousy.
Personally, I think this card is awful, but I guess we'll just have to wait and see. At this point it's not really a card that I'm even interested in trying out.
Play swamp into Dark Ritual (3B) --> Pay 1B for Sol Ring and tap for 2C --> Pay 1B2C for Buried Alive and grab the Devouerer, Triskelion, and Ooze Combo --> Pay 1B for reanimate and reanimate Ooze of course. Turn one win.
There's quite a lot it could do early on. Dark Ritual is just good accelerant.
I can get behind that. All players and groups have a different idea for the perfect meta. Our local meta is pretty competitive especially with the recent addition of Wizard sanctioned EDH FNM. I feel like Dark Ritual is a competitive card and since this deck is competitive, figured I'd suggest it.
Dark Ritual has no place in this deck. We're fast enough without the extra mana, and it's card disadvantage, something we need to desperately avoid. I actually have a turn one win and have pulled it off once. Land for turn, Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Tempt with Discovery into two opponents take it, finding Urborg, Coffers, and Ancient Tomb, Buried Alive, Reanimate. (In my actual game three opponents took it and I had an Exhume.) By the way, convention is to spell mana costs like they appear on the card, so Reanimate costs B, and Exhume costs 1B.
Aside from the siege, are there any other FRF cards you're considering? The siege looks ok to me, but not amazing. I feel like you don't really need any more 4cmc or higher ramp, although it could possibly go in the gilded lotus slot?
Haha. Attacking for combat damage isn't something I want to be doing with this gameplan. I've played P Deed in the past and really it was a bit slow, I also don't need more sweepers / removal right now. I wwill test deed, though.
Haha. Attacking for combat damage isn't something I want to be doing with this gameplan. I've played P Deed in the past and really it was a bit slow, I also don't need more sweepers / removal right now. I wwill test deed, though.
Noted. I have two land slots open right now so I'll test this. Flinging for 20 in a 40-life format seems eh, though.
In a 4 player game it's 60 total (per fling). I just noticed you don't have Life from the Loam, Expedition MapCrop Rotation or Crucible of Worlds. I probably wouldn't bother with the combo without those cards. It's not difficult to do this more than once a game with the right support cards though.
So, I had a few games with this deck over Christmas. I took the actual deck, as in razz's, with me to Arizona to test it out and get a better feel for it, so I could offer some advice. I showed up at a shop when they ran their weekly commander event and man was the meta weird.
One of the guys there had seen his reddit posts, and was deathly afraid of the deck when I said it was the exact one owned by that guy, to the point where he Jesters Cap'd me four times on like turn four or so, despite me mulling down to five and having missed two land drops. He was playing an Arcum deck, but it didn't look too good. There was another guy who had seen the deck and had a really bad copy of it without tutors (it had Necrotic Ooze combo, but he didn't realize that Phyrexian Devourer was a kill on its own and actually had both it AND Jarad on the field for about three turns before someone else won) or a few of the important ramp/draw spells. Other players there included 5c Hermit Druid, a really nasty Prossh, a $5000 Sharuum deck (it was beautiful), a Zur, and a couple others. Those four were the ones that were really good though, and the ones worth talking about.
In this meta, a lot of the kill spells felt really bad, because notably Sharuum, Prossh, and Zur are all must-kill commanders that annoyingly dodge stuff like Snuff Out. I absolutely hated Song of the Dryads and kept wanting it to be Maelstrom Pulse to combat Prossh's tokens, and seriously that deck is good and a matchup that Jarad hates.
As far as the games went, I was something like 5-0 in games that Druid played in, because people would focus a ton of removal on his deck, and I'd quietly Ooze or Living Death loops once they ran out of resources. That guy left, and I started doing worse because they just assumed that I was the fastest deck now, which got me a lot of hate. The game where I got cap'd twice was a doozy, I ended up resolving an Ooze combo where my library was small enough that I couldn't kill everyone, so I had to pass turn with Ooze unbuffed and hope to untap, cast Jarad, pass again, untap, buff, and fling to kill the table. 16. I got killed by a double Windfall from Sharuum, who had 11 cards in hand. The game was extremely unfun for me, but thats what happens! I think I went 3-5 the second half of the night, which ends at something like 8-5. Even 3-5 is insane for a four player game, thats way north of what my win% should be in a table like that. 8-5 though? This deck is good.
There were a few other things, but what I got out of this was that A) Song of the Dryad's is bad, B) Prossh is not a great matchup, due to him having a bunch of things I struggled to deal with AND being as fast as Jarad, and C) Comboless Arcum can tutor up Jester's Cap and Sculpting Steel (he had rings) at instant speed and then exile twelve cards from my deck in response to a Demonic Tutor. Ouch.
A little off topic, but was the Sharuum list you played against an engine build or a speed combo build?
Sounds like you had a bunch of fun. (except for the double cap game) Makes me really want to give this deck a try, but I really like blue. Maybe I'll give Oona a try. If Mimeo/Damia don't work out.
A little off topic, but was the Sharuum list you played against an engine build or a speed combo build?
Sounds like you had a bunch of fun. (except for the double cap game) Makes me really want to give this deck a try, but I really like blue. Maybe I'll give Oona a try. If Mimeo/Damia don't work out.
That Arcum guy was a bit paranoid, hahaha.
Yeah, the games were mostly still me learning his deck, so I didn't get *too* much out of it. Other than a lot of "man, I really freakin' wish this was a Maelstrom Pulse" against Prossh. Repeatedly. A few comments I already made to razz like about how Lili is everything this deck wants, and so on. Nothing particularly special. I finally learned how FUN Tempt with Discovery is; its still a card I hate on paper, but it performs well far more than I feel like it should, so... weird stuff.
So, I had a few games with this deck over Christmas. I took the actual deck, as in razz's, with me to Arizona to test it out and get a better feel for it, so I could offer some advice. I showed up at a shop when they ran their weekly commander event and man was the meta weird.
One of the guys there had seen his reddit posts, and was deathly afraid of the deck when I said it was the exact one owned by that guy, to the point where he Jesters Cap'd me four times on like turn four or so, despite me mulling down to five and having missed two land drops. He was playing an Arcum deck, but it didn't look too good. There was another guy who had seen the deck and had a really bad copy of it without tutors (it had Necrotic Ooze combo, but he didn't realize that Phyrexian Devourer was a kill on its own and actually had both it AND Jarad on the field for about three turns before someone else won) or a few of the important ramp/draw spells. Other players there included 5c Hermit Druid, a really nasty Prossh, a $5000 Sharuum deck (it was beautiful), a Zur, and a couple others. Those four were the ones that were really good though, and the ones worth talking about.
In this meta, a lot of the kill spells felt really bad, because notably Sharuum, Prossh, and Zur are all must-kill commanders that annoyingly dodge stuff like Snuff Out. I absolutely hated Song of the Dryads and kept wanting it to be Maelstrom Pulse to combat Prossh's tokens, and seriously that deck is good and a matchup that Jarad hates.
As far as the games went, I was something like 5-0 in games that Druid played in, because people would focus a ton of removal on his deck, and I'd quietly Ooze or Living Death loops once they ran out of resources. That guy left, and I started doing worse because they just assumed that I was the fastest deck now, which got me a lot of hate. The game where I got cap'd twice was a doozy, I ended up resolving an Ooze combo where my library was small enough that I couldn't kill everyone, so I had to pass turn with Ooze unbuffed and hope to untap, cast Jarad, pass again, untap, buff, and fling to kill the table. 16. I got killed by a double Windfall from Sharuum, who had 11 cards in hand. The game was extremely unfun for me, but thats what happens! I think I went 3-5 the second half of the night, which ends at something like 8-5. Even 3-5 is insane for a four player game, thats way north of what my win% should be in a table like that. 8-5 though? This deck is good.
There were a few other things, but what I got out of this was that A) Song of the Dryad's is bad, B) Prossh is not a great matchup, due to him having a bunch of things I struggled to deal with AND being as fast as Jarad, and C) Comboless Arcum can tutor up Jester's Cap and Sculpting Steel (he had rings) at instant speed and then exile twelve cards from my deck in response to a Demonic Tutor. Ouch.
Thanks Av. Here's what I think of your analysis.
Ultimately in competitive pods I'm not extraordinarily worried about Arcum, unless it's Arcum control. Basically, unless they play north of 15 counterspells, I have a pretty good matchup due to all the removal I'm packing for their commander and their combo pieces. My split second removal spells are really good here. Also, I find against Arcum an early cycled Decree of Pain before they untap with Arcum can be particularly effective in that it's uncounterable and will kill Arcum and usually one of their artifact dudes too.
Prossh does look like a nasty matchup. Not only do they have a combo as effective and quick as our own, they're also a combat deck - eww. I'll look into some lists and get some discussion going on the Prossh primer about how I can further my gameplan against them. Maelstrom Pulse may just be the answer, but I've been trying to cut removal, not add it.
Song of the Dryads has actually been alright every game I've played it, just another CMC 3 removal spell. I'm still trying to cut it just because I want to get some of the worse removal out of my deck. Time will tell.
Not sure that this deck wants Lili. You mean LotV, right? Like I said, trying to cut removal.
Oh, yeah, Liliana Vess is insane. Typically she's -2 -2 +1 -2 if nobody attacks her. Repeatable tutoring is great.
I tested Dark Depths combo and ultimately decided I can't really play that many more colorless lands, so I cut it. It also never really did what I wanted it to do.
I've also cut Vraska and am testing a load of cards in her place. Currently Harmonize is in her slot but I think I'm gonna add Koko Puffs - the lifegain is pretty relevant.
No Crop Rotation? Instant speed Bojuka Bog, finds the missing piece of Urborg/Coffers, grabs Strip Mine in an emergency, etc. I'm also extremely surprised not to see Expedition Map for similar reasons. I personally think that Faerie Macabre is way too desperate, especially since you're not even running Withered Wretch/Scavenging Ooze.
That line of logic is why the card sees success. I think it's only good because everybody in the game thinks that they will get more use out of the value than everyone else. Like playing into a Rhystic Study, it's "blatantly wrong", but so is sandbagging and doing absolutely nothing. Either way, your particular combo was probably my favorite so far, up there with my Codex Shredder combo.
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I cut Crucible of Worlds - the card is too slow to be of use, and I was trading it away that day. I added Grisly Salvage because I had one on me, but it's not staying in. Not sure what the best replacement for Crucible of Worlds is - I could play some slotfiller like Life from the Loam or Restore, but I think I just want another piece of utility. I'll update the primer on that once I've made a decision.
Pattern of Rebirth is nutty. Not only is it just Baleful Force or Rune-Scarred Demon half the time, it makes comboing super easy. Goes infinite with Woodfall Primus and a sac outlet (because it finds Mikeaus), which I did a number of times. It's also good with Phyrexian Tower, and the creature is often Dryad Arbor because I can fetch it off my green fetches. The fact that I can get stuff like Reclamation Sage or E Wit at instant speed is just added utility.
Liliana Vess is good - the repeatable tutor is nice, and having something like Baleful Force as a blocker will deter most of my opponents from swinging in. It's also a build-your--own Entomb if I want it to be. Vraska is also playable - not great, and ultimately cuttable, but still earned its spot in the deck fairly. I won a game with Assassin tokens! Really helps my long game.
Need to cut Rec Sage, I think.
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Honestly, I've felt the same about Crucible most times I've drawn it in multiple lists. With reanimator combo, Life from the Loam seems better, but ultimately useless unless your meta is LD heavy, or you're doing something with all those lands.
I run Pattern of Rebirth in my Prossh deck. In combo, I feel that more tutors is invaluable. Especially one like this with multiple sac outlets. Like you said, without a sac outlet, it feels like a "shields up" kind of card, similar to Academy Rector in white.
Vess is good, but feels a bit expensive (I could be wrong, Black and Green can generate some insane mana). Do you find that she lives more than one round of turns?
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I agree with all of that, especially the comment on Pattern of Rebirth. Unless I have no other good plays, I wouldn't cast Vess into a field of creatures. She is a bit expensive but often winds up being a repeatable tutor.
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Avvina's had my deck for awhile. Waiting on a comprehensive post on his experiences with it. The short run of it is "Everything's really good except Song of the Dryads." I still want to test the card more myself, but I'll probably cut it.
I think the new green siege could be good? For the ramp option obviousy.
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It seems pretty good, but I'm not convinced it's a format staple just yet. I guess it's just as good as Kodama's Reach or something. But doesn't fix your colors.
Interesting to hear Avvina's take on your Jarad.
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Opening hand needs four cards and a swamp (or another comes in untapped land that produces black).
- Dark Ritual
- Sol Ring or Mana Crypt
- Buried Alive
- Reanimate
Play swamp into Dark Ritual (3B) --> Pay 1B for Sol Ring and tap for 2C --> Pay 1B2C for Buried Alive and grab the Devouerer, Triskelion, and Ooze Combo --> Pay 1B for reanimate and reanimate Ooze of course. Turn one win.
There's quite a lot it could do early on. Dark Ritual is just good accelerant.
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Just looking at the deck list; a few of the other turn one plays with Dark Ritual are game changing. Turn one Phyrexian Arena or Necropotence. Cast and tap Scroll Rack. Vampiric Tutor into Sensei's Divining Top and a left over black to activate it. Gas into gas.
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Check out my competitive Momir Vig Toolbox Combo Deck
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I am very confused by your response. I was recommending Dark Depths/Thespian's Stage/Vampire Hexmage as part of a combo to churn out a 20/20 to sac to Jarad, sometimes more than once a turn with Oracle of Mul Daya/Crucible of Worlds.
Very rarely do I attack with Marit Lage.
Noted. I have two land slots open right now so I'll test this. Flinging for 20 in a 40-life format seems eh, though.
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In a 4 player game it's 60 total (per fling). I just noticed you don't have Life from the Loam, Expedition Map Crop Rotation or Crucible of Worlds. I probably wouldn't bother with the combo without those cards. It's not difficult to do this more than once a game with the right support cards though.
One of the guys there had seen his reddit posts, and was deathly afraid of the deck when I said it was the exact one owned by that guy, to the point where he Jesters Cap'd me four times on like turn four or so, despite me mulling down to five and having missed two land drops. He was playing an Arcum deck, but it didn't look too good. There was another guy who had seen the deck and had a really bad copy of it without tutors (it had Necrotic Ooze combo, but he didn't realize that Phyrexian Devourer was a kill on its own and actually had both it AND Jarad on the field for about three turns before someone else won) or a few of the important ramp/draw spells. Other players there included 5c Hermit Druid, a really nasty Prossh, a $5000 Sharuum deck (it was beautiful), a Zur, and a couple others. Those four were the ones that were really good though, and the ones worth talking about.
In this meta, a lot of the kill spells felt really bad, because notably Sharuum, Prossh, and Zur are all must-kill commanders that annoyingly dodge stuff like Snuff Out. I absolutely hated Song of the Dryads and kept wanting it to be Maelstrom Pulse to combat Prossh's tokens, and seriously that deck is good and a matchup that Jarad hates.
As far as the games went, I was something like 5-0 in games that Druid played in, because people would focus a ton of removal on his deck, and I'd quietly Ooze or Living Death loops once they ran out of resources. That guy left, and I started doing worse because they just assumed that I was the fastest deck now, which got me a lot of hate. The game where I got cap'd twice was a doozy, I ended up resolving an Ooze combo where my library was small enough that I couldn't kill everyone, so I had to pass turn with Ooze unbuffed and hope to untap, cast Jarad, pass again, untap, buff, and fling to kill the table. 16. I got killed by a double Windfall from Sharuum, who had 11 cards in hand. The game was extremely unfun for me, but thats what happens! I think I went 3-5 the second half of the night, which ends at something like 8-5. Even 3-5 is insane for a four player game, thats way north of what my win% should be in a table like that. 8-5 though? This deck is good.
There were a few other things, but what I got out of this was that A) Song of the Dryad's is bad, B) Prossh is not a great matchup, due to him having a bunch of things I struggled to deal with AND being as fast as Jarad, and C) Comboless Arcum can tutor up Jester's Cap and Sculpting Steel (he had rings) at instant speed and then exile twelve cards from my deck in response to a Demonic Tutor. Ouch.
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Sounds like you had a bunch of fun. (except for the double cap game) Makes me really want to give this deck a try, but I really like blue. Maybe I'll give Oona a try. If Mimeo/Damia don't work out.
That Arcum guy was a bit paranoid, hahaha.
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Yeah, the games were mostly still me learning his deck, so I didn't get *too* much out of it. Other than a lot of "man, I really freakin' wish this was a Maelstrom Pulse" against Prossh. Repeatedly. A few comments I already made to razz like about how Lili is everything this deck wants, and so on. Nothing particularly special. I finally learned how FUN Tempt with Discovery is; its still a card I hate on paper, but it performs well far more than I feel like it should, so... weird stuff.
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Thanks Av. Here's what I think of your analysis.
Ultimately in competitive pods I'm not extraordinarily worried about Arcum, unless it's Arcum control. Basically, unless they play north of 15 counterspells, I have a pretty good matchup due to all the removal I'm packing for their commander and their combo pieces. My split second removal spells are really good here. Also, I find against Arcum an early cycled Decree of Pain before they untap with Arcum can be particularly effective in that it's uncounterable and will kill Arcum and usually one of their artifact dudes too.
Prossh does look like a nasty matchup. Not only do they have a combo as effective and quick as our own, they're also a combat deck - eww. I'll look into some lists and get some discussion going on the Prossh primer about how I can further my gameplan against them. Maelstrom Pulse may just be the answer, but I've been trying to cut removal, not add it.
Song of the Dryads has actually been alright every game I've played it, just another CMC 3 removal spell. I'm still trying to cut it just because I want to get some of the worse removal out of my deck. Time will tell.
Not sure that this deck wants Lili. You mean LotV, right? Like I said, trying to cut removal.
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I tested Dark Depths combo and ultimately decided I can't really play that many more colorless lands, so I cut it. It also never really did what I wanted it to do.
I've also cut Vraska and am testing a load of cards in her place. Currently Harmonize is in her slot but I think I'm gonna add Koko Puffs - the lifegain is pretty relevant.
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