I concur with adding removal based on meta. However, having a deck weak to graveyard removal goes beyond meta. The good thing about counterspells and universal removal like Assassin's Trophy is that they're not dead cards if no one at the table is running graveyard removal. The problem with adding more instants and/or sorceries is that with so much self-milling it's very difficult to recover those card types. So if your answer is in the graveyard when someone plays a Bojuka Bog or casts a Rest in Peace, what're you gonna be able to do?
As for Underrealm Lich, it's not an underwhelming card. It might seem overcosted but 3BG is not that difficult to pull off in this deck. Not only that, but it survives targeted removal and boardwipes. I also run The Gitrog Monster so it remains to be seen if I'm sold on Sylvan Library being good for my deck. I know it's a great card and I use it to much success in my Atraxa deck. I'm always looking for ways to maximize the amount of creature cards in the deck.
Everyone has pretty much been spot on with Prime Speaker Vannifar. As least as far as my build, it's not to difficult to slot her in because I already have most of the cards needed to support her. It would be a very minimal amount of changes to get her to run smoothly here.
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A friend of mine suggested adding Muddle the Mixture, Drift of Phantasms, or Perplex as they'd have more than one function. Drift would be a creature for the creature count or a possible tutor while Muddle & Perplex could be counter magic or tutors.
I'm torn on the idea. I like the multifunctionality of them but at the same time I'm not sold that this deck really needs tutors like that.
A friend of mine suggested adding Muddle the Mixture, Drift of Phantasms, or Perplex as they'd have more than one function. Drift would be a creature for the creature count or a possible tutor while Muddle & Perplex could be counter magic or tutors.
I'm torn on the idea. I like the multifunctionality of them but at the same time I'm not sold that this deck really needs tutors like that.
Yeah, I only run tutors in creature form. Transmute is limited to the casting cost but I can tutor for whatever I want when I exploit Sidisi, Undead Vizier for instance.
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Yea, I don't think they'd be horrible adds, but I can't really think of a game where outside of maybe needing a removal answer a little sooner that I've felt like I needed more than was already in the deck.
Yea, I don't think they'd be horrible adds, but I can't really think of a game where outside of maybe needing a removal answer a little sooner that I've felt like I needed more than was already in the deck.
Either way, transmute can only be done at sorcery speed.
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Yea, I don't think they'd be horrible adds, but I can't really think of a game where outside of maybe needing a removal answer a little sooner that I've felt like I needed more than was already in the deck.
Either way, transmute can only be done at sorcery speed.
Most tutors are at sorcery speed outside of the ones that are triggered or activated abilities on permanents and some of the land tutors. Off the top of my head the only ones that are instant speed are Vampiric, Worldly, Enlightened, and Mystical.
Demonic, Diabolic, Grim, Imperial Seal, Beeech the Queen, etc., are all sorcery speed.
Yea, I don't think they'd be horrible adds, but I can't really think of a game where outside of maybe needing a removal answer a little sooner that I've felt like I needed more than was already in the deck.
Either way, transmute can only be done at sorcery speed.
Most tutors are at sorcery speed outside of the ones that are triggered or activated abilities on permanents and some of the land tutors. Off the top of my head the only ones that are instant speed are Vampiric, Worldly, Enlightened, and Mystical.
Demonic, Diabolic, Grim, Imperial Seal, Beeech the Queen, etc., are all sorcery speed.
And each of those spells is better than transmuting subpar spells instead.
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I'm a bit undecided as to consider Prime Speaker Vannifar as a sort of sub-commander or semi-partner. I'm still including it in the 99 but I don't know if I should add so much attention to it in the primer as I did throughout the thread and the couple of pages or so of discussion on her. I will probably make a subsection of some key plays or at least the best chains with her in the deck. Whatever I end up doing, I'm definitely going to update the main post to reflect these things. So far she's been great in the Main Build of the deck but I haven't tested her out in the Zombie Build.
Speaking of which, here are some cards I might possibly add to the Zombie Build. I still haven't decided on the potential cuts for them.
There are some very useful utility creatures here but I do want to limit the amount of nonZombie creatures in the deck because I want it to be as tribal as possible without being too closely similar to the Main Build. I feel like these potential changes might lead it to close to the Main Build. If I were to add any of those to the deck, it would probably be Path of Discovery, Assassin's Trophy, Voidslime, and Tezzeret the Seeker.
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Have tweaked the deck a little to add some more removal and it's been beautiful. Since those changes the deck has won 17 out of 22 games, and is winning in a ton of different ways. Last night alone it won 3 different ways (combat damage with Craterhoof Behemoth as the catalyst, Plague Belcher + Gravecrawler + Phyrexian Altar pinging everyone to death, and then Mesmeric Orb + Aphetto Alchemist on an opponents endstep for an alpha swing on my next turn).
The deck also has some real interesting little ways to recover/stay the course. In one of the games an opponent cast Ruination and took me down to 1 land, problem for them was I had out Rooftop Storm and Arcane Adaptation. It stopped me from being able to cast Doubling Season and a few other things I had in my hand that would have sped up me winning, but I drew into Craterhoof and that was game.
That's great! I'm glad the deck has been going well for you. Those combos are definitely very strong which is why I try to run the Zombie Build a bit different from the Main Build. Arcane Adaptation being a much easier to cast Conspiracy really made the deck much better. Not only does it provide redundancy but it's also a great T3 drop. Mesmeric Orb is just crazy in this deck. That's why I'm considering adding Tezzeret the Seeker to the Zombie Build. Getting Mesmeric Orb out earlier makes zombies faster and with so many zombie lords things can get out of hand very quickly. I also want to add Prime Speaker Vannifar to the Zombie Build in order to chain into Craterhoof Behemoth and swing with the granddaddy of all alpha strikes.
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One thing I've noticed, is that of my last 6 or so games that I've cast it, Seedborn Muse is such a target, it never sticks a full turn rotation or is countered. I'm starting to feel like it's a somewhat wasted play and possibly something to consider replacing.
It being such a target probably eats up a removal spell that may stop me from casting something else big, but at the same point a 1 for 1 that costs me 5 mana while it only costs my opponent 2-3 mana, not sure how I feel about that.
One thing I've noticed, is that of my last 6 or so games that I've cast it, Seedborn Muse is such a target, it never sticks a full turn rotation or is countered. I'm starting to feel like it's a somewhat wasted play and possibly something to consider replacing.
It being such a target probably eats up a removal spell that may stop me from casting something else big, but at the same point a 1 for 1 that costs me 5 mana while it only costs my opponent 2-3 mana, not sure how I feel about that.
You have ways of dealing with spot removal and/or counterspells with Glen Elendra Archmage and other counters. Having Seedborn Muse eat a counterspell or removal isn't such a big deal and it should be expected.
I'm not of the philosophy of not running great cards in case they get dealt with; I'm aware they're gonna be a target. The thing is to see if they stay around long enough to do what they gotta do. Seedborn Muse isn't entirely essential and I put it in when Prophet of Kruphix got banned. That being said, if it can stick around and Mesmeric Orb is in play, things get crazy. It also helps to untap all attackers in order to have them become blockers, too. It's just a great card. I don't mind spending the 3GG on it because sometimes just tapping Gaea's Cradle or Itlimoc, Cradle of the Sun is enough.
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I've been debating adding Glen Elendra, Archmage, have been carrying it around in the deck box, just haven't decided what to cut for it. Probably will replace Stitcher's Supplier with it.
I've been debating adding Glen Elendra, Archmage, have been carrying it around in the deck box, just haven't decided what to cut for it. Probably will replace Stitcher's Supplier with it.
That's a good call. Glen Elendra Archmage is a counterspell on a body that you can use for just U. Just have an untapped blue source available deters opponents who are aware from casting any kind of noncreature spell. And when an opponent forgets about it, you can counter it. It pulls its weight in the deck way more than Stitcher's Supplier does.
I also run Frilled Mystic and Mystic Snake. As far as being a counterspell goes they're expensive, but they're easier to recur if in the graveyard and if you can reanimate them at instant speed you can counter something. With Havengul Lich you can also reanimate them during any turn at instant speed (it'll cost 1 more though). Havengul Lich + Glen Elendra Archmage is also a nice combo as well.
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Yea, I was thinking about those two as well but it's so hard to decide on cuts atm. I've also been debating adding Birds of Paradise, debating what to cut for it, leaning towards Fatestitcher (I run it instead of Krosan Restorer since it's a zombie and has Unearth- mine is a zombie build) but with also running both Aphetto Alchemist and Kiora's Follower I may can afford to cut it.
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Yea, I usually end up just Unearthing it at a time that I can use it for Gaea's Cradle or Cabal Coffers.
What I don't like about Fatestitcher being unearthed is that it just becomes a glorified sorcery-speed Twiddle that gets exiled afterwards. Sure, that's the price to pay to use it from the graveyard, but how powerful is that effect as a one-time only simply because it's a zombie?
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That's one of the reasons I'm likely cutting him from the deck. I'd much rather have the other untappers, even if I were to add Krosan Restorer back in it's place, I feel that would be an upgrade. Fatestitcher is too situational, and there's times it just sits in the GY even with Unearth.
IN Birds of Paradise (ramp that keeps the creature count up) Glen Elendra Archmage (a little more counter-magic) Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet (play-test situation, there's so much targeted removal & board wipes in my meta I'm curious how this will play) Krosan Restorer (returning to the deck, clearly an upgrade over Fatestitcher)
OUT Clever Impersonator (will return to the deck shortly once I find my other copy- traded this one for 3 cards for my Varina deck) Fatestitcher (see Krosan Restorer) Liliana, Untouched by Death (were too many times I had it in my hand and had other things I'd rather cast) Stitcher's Supplier (not worth the slot honestly)
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Played four games tonight...and naturally I didn't draw a single one of the changed cards. At least I won 3 of the 4 games. *shrug*
Lol, 75% isn't really anything to shrug at
I see you're building Varina, Lich Queen. Are you going to continue using Sidisi, Brood Tyrant as a zombie general or are you going to shift that focus on Varina? Or are you going to have two zombie tribal generals that share 67% of their colors? If so, are you going to recycle some mechanics and cards or are you going to do the zombie tribal with two different foci and/or directions?
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The Varina I'm building is helping my daughter as her first commander deck (she's been playing MTG since she was 7, has played commander with me and her brother but this will be the first deck that's "hers"). It's going to be zombie tribal but we're trying to overlap as few cards as possible. ATM we have 11 cards that overlap. Hers has a higher focus on making tokens through cards like Army of the Damned, Ghoulcaller Gisa, Endless Ranks of the Dead, etc. as that was the direction she wanted to go. I'm trying to let her build it and see what she wants to change as she goes.
As for Underrealm Lich, it's not an underwhelming card. It might seem overcosted but 3BG is not that difficult to pull off in this deck. Not only that, but it survives targeted removal and boardwipes. I also run The Gitrog Monster so it remains to be seen if I'm sold on Sylvan Library being good for my deck. I know it's a great card and I use it to much success in my Atraxa deck. I'm always looking for ways to maximize the amount of creature cards in the deck.
Everyone has pretty much been spot on with Prime Speaker Vannifar. As least as far as my build, it's not to difficult to slot her in because I already have most of the cards needed to support her. It would be a very minimal amount of changes to get her to run smoothly here.
0 Pact of Negation
3 Wood Elves
2 Assassin's Trophy
3 Voidslime
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
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I'm torn on the idea. I like the multifunctionality of them but at the same time I'm not sold that this deck really needs tutors like that.
Building: Varina
Yeah, I only run tutors in creature form. Transmute is limited to the casting cost but I can tutor for whatever I want when I exploit Sidisi, Undead Vizier for instance.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
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Building: Varina
Either way, transmute can only be done at sorcery speed.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
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Most tutors are at sorcery speed outside of the ones that are triggered or activated abilities on permanents and some of the land tutors. Off the top of my head the only ones that are instant speed are Vampiric, Worldly, Enlightened, and Mystical.
Demonic, Diabolic, Grim, Imperial Seal, Beeech the Queen, etc., are all sorcery speed.
Building: Varina
And each of those spells is better than transmuting subpar spells instead.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
Building: Varina
Speaking of which, here are some cards I might possibly add to the Zombie Build. I still haven't decided on the potential cuts for them.
There are some very useful utility creatures here but I do want to limit the amount of nonZombie creatures in the deck because I want it to be as tribal as possible without being too closely similar to the Main Build. I feel like these potential changes might lead it to close to the Main Build. If I were to add any of those to the deck, it would probably be Path of Discovery, Assassin's Trophy, Voidslime, and Tezzeret the Seeker.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
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The deck also has some real interesting little ways to recover/stay the course. In one of the games an opponent cast Ruination and took me down to 1 land, problem for them was I had out Rooftop Storm and Arcane Adaptation. It stopped me from being able to cast Doubling Season and a few other things I had in my hand that would have sped up me winning, but I drew into Craterhoof and that was game.
Building: Varina
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
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It being such a target probably eats up a removal spell that may stop me from casting something else big, but at the same point a 1 for 1 that costs me 5 mana while it only costs my opponent 2-3 mana, not sure how I feel about that.
Building: Varina
You have ways of dealing with spot removal and/or counterspells with Glen Elendra Archmage and other counters. Having Seedborn Muse eat a counterspell or removal isn't such a big deal and it should be expected.
I'm not of the philosophy of not running great cards in case they get dealt with; I'm aware they're gonna be a target. The thing is to see if they stay around long enough to do what they gotta do. Seedborn Muse isn't entirely essential and I put it in when Prophet of Kruphix got banned. That being said, if it can stick around and Mesmeric Orb is in play, things get crazy. It also helps to untap all attackers in order to have them become blockers, too. It's just a great card. I don't mind spending the 3GG on it because sometimes just tapping Gaea's Cradle or Itlimoc, Cradle of the Sun is enough.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
Building: Varina
That's a good call. Glen Elendra Archmage is a counterspell on a body that you can use for just U. Just have an untapped blue source available deters opponents who are aware from casting any kind of noncreature spell. And when an opponent forgets about it, you can counter it. It pulls its weight in the deck way more than Stitcher's Supplier does.
I also run Frilled Mystic and Mystic Snake. As far as being a counterspell goes they're expensive, but they're easier to recur if in the graveyard and if you can reanimate them at instant speed you can counter something. With Havengul Lich you can also reanimate them during any turn at instant speed (it'll cost 1 more though). Havengul Lich + Glen Elendra Archmage is also a nice combo as well.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
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Building: Varina
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
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Yea, I usually end up just Unearthing it at a time that I can use it for Gaea's Cradle or Cabal Coffers.
Building: Varina
What I don't like about Fatestitcher being unearthed is that it just becomes a glorified sorcery-speed Twiddle that gets exiled afterwards. Sure, that's the price to pay to use it from the graveyard, but how powerful is that effect as a one-time only simply because it's a zombie?
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
Building: Varina
IN
Birds of Paradise (ramp that keeps the creature count up)
Glen Elendra Archmage (a little more counter-magic)
Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet (play-test situation, there's so much targeted removal & board wipes in my meta I'm curious how this will play)
Krosan Restorer (returning to the deck, clearly an upgrade over Fatestitcher)
OUT
Clever Impersonator (will return to the deck shortly once I find my other copy- traded this one for 3 cards for my Varina deck)
Fatestitcher (see Krosan Restorer)
Liliana, Untouched by Death (were too many times I had it in my hand and had other things I'd rather cast)
Stitcher's Supplier (not worth the slot honestly)
Building: Varina
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
Building: Varina
Lol, 75% isn't really anything to shrug at
I see you're building Varina, Lich Queen. Are you going to continue using Sidisi, Brood Tyrant as a zombie general or are you going to shift that focus on Varina? Or are you going to have two zombie tribal generals that share 67% of their colors? If so, are you going to recycle some mechanics and cards or are you going to do the zombie tribal with two different foci and/or directions?
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
Building: Varina