MTG Salvation

Quote from WWWolfe »

Yea, I probably won't run Assasin's Trophy in my Sidisi deck, for the same reasons you mentioned, but my God it's a beautiful card.

I've never used Taigam's second ability either while Underrealm's second ability may be useful in a pinch, and it being a zombie opens up the possibility of cost reduction with Rooftop Storm & Undead Warchief even though the deck produces enough mana where that generally isn't a problem.
Like you said, it will just come down to which of the first abilities people prefer.

What are your thoughts on Lazav, the Multifarious for the Zombie build?

I think Lazav could be good for the Zombie Build since he can pretty much clone whatever creature's in the graveyard; you just won't be able to get any enters the battlefield triggers off of him if he's already in play.

It seems everyone loves Assassin's Trophy. Just looked at the price. Yikes!

Quote from NikToo7304 »

It seems everyone loves Assassin's Trophy. Just looked at the price. Yikes!

Modern always drives up the prices on everything.

Had one of the best starts I've ever had with the deck last night. Parallel Lives & Doubling Season both out with Sidisi on turn 5 (opening hand was 3 lands, Sol Ring, Chromatic Lantern, Parallel Lives, & Doubling Season). Drew into Mesmeric Orb on turn 3. On turn 6 I had around 25 tokens with Undead Warchief giving them +2/+1...then an opponent cast Cyclonic Rift overloaded. After that it was pretty much a game of Archenemy with the other 3 players teaming up on me until they got me out though I did take one of them with me and took another down to 11 life before I went out.

I didn't win but the explosive start was the most fun I've had playing MTG recently.

Quote from WWWolfe »

Had one of the best starts I've ever had with the deck last night. Parallel Lives & Doubling Season both out with Sidisi on turn 5 (opening hand was 3 lands, Sol Ring, Chromatic Lantern, Parallel Lives, & Doubling Season). Drew into Mesmeric Orb on turn 3. On turn 6 I had around 25 tokens with Undead Warchief giving them +2/+1...then an opponent cast Cyclonic Rift overloaded. After that it was pretty much a game of Archenemy with the other 3 players teaming up on me until they got me out though I did take one of them with me and took another down to 11 life before I went out.

I didn't win but the explosive start was the most fun I've had playing MTG recently.

Nice! Yes, this deck can get big out of nowhere. It's a shame you got an overloaded Cyclonic Rift, but your start game just goes to show how unassuming the commander is at first until it starts going.

@DementedKirby I've said it before, but I'll say it again: you should put more interaction in. Right now I only see 5 cards in your list above that interact with your opponents' things in a reasonable way: Opposition, Glen Elendra Archmage, Nullmage Shepherd, Vengeful Pharaoh, and Living Death. And a couple of those are a stretch as Nullmage Shepherd requires a strong board presence and Vengeful Pharoah serves more as a disincentive for people to attack you than a removal card. I wouldn't count things like Grimgrin, Corpse-Born (because he requires you to play him and have him stick around a full turn) or Sheoldred, Whispering One, because at 7 mana she is more of a finisher than an interaction piece. Assassin's Trophy is a catch-all interaction spell, and should 100% be included.

If I were to add more things it would be to protect my board presence. Apart from graveyard hate and pillowforts this deck really has no other deplorable weaknesses. Assassin's Trophy does not deal with Bojuka Bog's trigger, nor Tormod's Crypt style cards as they can be sacrificed in response. As for permanents that can be a nuisance, pillowfort effects can be dealt with in time. Very rarely have I had problems with this deck save for consistent boardwipes. Some combo player can win out of nowhere. Assassin's Trophy doesn't deal with those either. I'd run Force of Will before I run Assassin's Trophy. Don't misunderstand me, though; I'm not dissing on the card, I've just never had to actually fear another player's board presence. My build is very streamlined - just in a chaotic way.

I don't know... perhaps your meta is just more casual and battlecruiser. It seems silly to assume that our deck is always doing broken stuff while other decks are just playing catch-up. What happens when an opponent has their own Gaea's Cradle? What about that Alesha, Who Smiles at Death player who just flashed in an attacking Master of Cruelties on turn 3 or 4. What about the Brago, King Eternal player that is about to hit for combat damage and essentially win by turn 4 or 5. Broken things happen all the time in commander, and Assassin's Trophy is--aside from countermagic--the single best catch all answer.

Also, I'm all for running Force of Will. I personally haven't added it because I just don't have that many blue cards in my deck that I can consistently pay its alternative cost.

Quote from arcane trouper »

I don't know... perhaps your meta is just more casual and battlecruiser. It seems silly to assume that our deck is always doing broken stuff while other decks are just playing catch-up. What happens when an opponent has their own Gaea's Cradle? What about that Alesha, Who Smiles at Death player who just flashed in an attacking Master of Cruelties on turn 3 or 4. What about the Brago, King Eternal player that is about to hit for combat damage and essentially win by turn 4 or 5. Broken things happen all the time in commander, and Assassin's Trophy is--aside from countermagic--the single best catch all answer.

Also, I'm all for running Force of Will. I personally haven't added it because I just don't have that many blue cards in my deck that I can consistently pay its alternative cost.

That's very true. But you're also assuming that we'd always have such a response against that swift combo player who can win by turn 5. Without tutoring or alternate answers we'd lose such match ups. You're also right in that my meta isn't as fast or as cutthroat. That being said, Sidisi is nowhere near a Tier 1 deck. Again, I'm not disregarding Assassin's Trophy, Force of Will, etc. I might consider in the future add a package for people in your situation. Among all the types this deck can face, I haven't discussed its susceptibility to combo. Then again, combo decks tend to be higher tier than this one. And, in such a pod, someone should have a response to it. And I am aware that combo decks that can win out of nowhere aren't near the scope of what this deck can handle against.

That being said, Sidisi is nowhere near a Tier 1 deck.

I acknowledge this. My current build is not a tier 1 deck either, and it is not intended to be one. I could be running Laboratory Maniac, Necrotic Ooze, and/or Protean Hulk as win-conditions, but I opt for the more casual win-condition of Craterhoof Behemoth and an army of zombies. But there is a lot of room between "optimized casual" and "unfocused battlecruiser." In my opinion, commander is most fun when a deck doesn't consist of 100% threats. You need answers! I have a budget Brago deck. It's a casual deck--not a dedicated combo deck--but with the right draw it can lock out the game and essentially win with one Brago hit. Just having a few additional answers from players makes games so much more interesting! We are in colors that allow us to play Demonic Tutor, Mana Drain, and Assassin's trophy (which will take place of the Abrupt Decay I currently run). These are cheap, broad-reaching cards that allow games to have more of a back-and-forth.

If you choose not to add all of these in, that's fine. It's hard to make cuts, especially when we want to keep our creature count high. But as a primer, you should at least have a section of listing some of the best answers/tutors available to us.

Quote from arcane trouper »

That being said, Sidisi is nowhere near a Tier 1 deck.

I acknowledge this. My current build is not a tier 1 deck either, and it is not intended to be one. I could be running Laboratory Maniac, Necrotic Ooze, and/or Protean Hulk as win-conditions, but I opt for the more casual win-condition of Craterhoof Behemoth and an army of zombies. But there is a lot of room between "optimized casual" and "unfocused battlecruiser." In my opinion, commander is most fun when a deck doesn't consist of 100% threats. You need answers! I have a budget Brago deck. It's a casual deck--not a dedicated combo deck--but with the right draw it can lock out the game and essentially win with one Brago hit. Just having a few additional answers from players makes games so much more interesting! We are in colors that allow us to play Demonic Tutor, Mana Drain, and Assassin's trophy (which will take place of the Abrupt Decay I currently run). These are cheap, broad-reaching cards that allow games to have more of a back-and-forth.

If you choose not to add all of these in, that's fine. It's hard to make cuts, especially when we want to keep our creature count high. But as a primer, you should at least have a section of listing some of the best answers/tutors available to us.

Yeah, I'm working on an answers package where the self-milling/recovery spells (the ones that do both motions simultaneously) are replaced with just answers. However, having the answers in the graveyard requires much more graveyard interaction with instant and sorcery type spells versus just creatures.

Curious as to your thoughts on Phyrexian Delver for the zombie build?

A friend suggested it but personally I think Lazav fits a better purpose and is more versatile.

Quote from WWWolfe »

Curious as to your thoughts on Phyrexian Delver for the zombie build?

A friend suggested it but personally I think Lazav fits a better purpose and is more versatile.

It could definitely be added to the Zombie Build. For the moment I've been working closer with the Main Build but it's definitely in the realm of possibility since I did find a slot for it in the Main Build.

Getting myself Underrealm Lich, Lazav, The Multifarious and Necrotic Ooze, that's about all I can afford at the moment and they look fun.

Am I right in assuming that you can change Lazav on the fly whenever? So you could change types in response or in the opponent's end step?

Quote from NikToo7304 »

Am I right in assuming that you can change Lazav on the fly whenever? So you could change types in response or in the opponent's end step?

Yes, it's an activated ability; therefore, you can use it at instant speed.

Quote from DementedKirby »

Quote from NikToo7304 »

Am I right in assuming that you can change Lazav on the fly whenever? So you could change types in response or in the opponent's end step?

Yes, it's an activated ability; therefore, you can use it at instant speed.

It'd be funny to use it to copy Lazav, the Multifarious and then use the ability of that to copy another card.

And if one did that, wouldn't Embalmer's Tools work as well? So the Necrotic Ooze has the ability of Lazav to pay X to become a creature in the graveyard but the Tools makes it X-1?

I'm probably going to dump Reclamation Sage, Gravecrawler and Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet for the Lich, Lazav and Ooze. Just a final question though: doesn't Taigam, Sidisi's Hand cancel out the Lich? Taigam says you "skip your draw step" and "put one into your hand", and the Lich says "If you would draw a card".

Since the ability you're using is on the Necrotic Ooze and not on Lazav per se, you don't get the bonus from Embalmer's Tools. It would have to be of a creature card in the graveyard, like Genesis. Since the creature activating the ability isn't in the graveyard (although Necrotic Ooze is copying the ability of a creature in the graveyard) it doesn't get the bonus. At least that's what I'm concluding.

Yes, Taigam, Sidisi's Hand nonbos with Underrealm Lich, which is why I made the swap. I have to check and see if I updated the OP to reflect the latest changes to the deck.

Quote from dzen_ »

Thanks so much for putting together this fantastic primer. I’m brand new to EDH, but after debating which commander to start out with you’ve persuaded me that Sidisi is the one to go for.

I had a couple of questions though, please.

1. Do you have an up-to-date list? I see you’ve been thinking about including some cards from GRN, but I’m not confident about where to make those substitutions.

2. A few people, especially arcane_trouper, have been discussing changes to the deck like more ramp, more answers. What are the cons of doing this, and how would it change the way the deck plays?

Thanks very much for the input!

Thanks! Welcome to the forums!

I haven't had much time to update the OP. I want to add a section on how to face combo by suggestion some changes that would include more cards that interrupt ("answers"). Hopefully I'll be able to get on it whether tonight or during this weekend.

@dzen_

Quote from dzen_ »

2. A few people, especially arcane_trouper, have been discussing changes to the deck like more ramp, more answers. What are the cons of doing this, and how would it change the way the deck plays?

Thought I would give a more in depth answer on my opinions on ramp and answers. I will highlight the one's I run and give explanations when they add something. For reference, my current decklist.

But first, it should be noted that I have trimmed down and cut some of DementedKirby's deck. Notable exclusions are:

• Filth Making our creatures unblockable is great, but I found there were enough other ways to "pump the horde" via Death Baron, Diregraf Captain, Akroma's Memorial, and Craterhoof Behemoth. I ended up cutting Filth as it required finding Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth to function.
• Phyrexian Reclamation A cute combo with Survival of the Fittest that allows you to repeatably tutor. However, by itself it doesn't do much of anything.
• Planeswalkers. I found they just didn't add enough. If you aren't happy with getting a single activation out of them before they are killed, they probably don't make the cut. You could argue for Tezzeret the Seeker as a way to find Mesmeric Orb, but why not just have Muddle the Mixture, which is a more flexible option. As I don't have planeswalkers in my list, I substituted Parallel Lives for Doubling Season. Parallel Lives is 1 mana cheaper and doesn't have the anti-synergy with Glen Elendra Archmage that Doubling Season does.
• Cabal Coffers Again, doesn't do anything unless I find Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth. In general, I found Gaea's Cradle produces more mana, faster, and functions without finding an additional land. If I'm tutoring for a land, I'm probably finding Gaea's Cradle.
• Gempalm Polluter The card is fine. But with the addition of The Scarab God, we already have a backup way to win in case winning through combat isn't an option.

Now the main card choices for Ramp and Removal:
Ramp: Mana dorks are great for Sidisi, Brood Tyrant because they are ramp that allow us to get zombie triggers when we mill them.

• Birds of Paradise
• Bloom Tender At least taps for 1, and once Sidisi, Brood Tyrantis out taps for 3.
• Deathrite Shaman In my opinion, if your commander allows you to play this, you should. Ramp and graveyard hate for your opponents' shenanigans.
• Kiora's Follower
• Krosan Restorer
• Voyaging Satyr
• Chromatic Lantern Probably the worst ramp I run, and you would be fine to find something better. However, it does ensure that are utility lands always tap for something and makes our manabase less painful.
• Mox Diamond Fast mana, and we can return the land back into our hand with Life from the Loam.
• Sol Ring
• Aphetto Alchemist Not ramp by itself, but allows us to untap our mana dorks/rocks.
• Dryad Arbor Not ramp by itself, but the inclusion of Green Sun's Zenith allows us to use it as ramp. Dryad Arbor also has the benefit of keeping our creature count high, and provides an additional target for Aphetto Alchemist. Green Sun's Zenith is a fantastic card that allows us to tutor for a mana dork early game, and then also can grab Craterhoof Behemoth when we are swinging in for the win.
• Phyrexian Tower More of a sac outlet than ramp, but can occasionally be used as ramp.

Removal: Removal should have a low cmc, and should function even if we don't already have a well established board presence. For these reasons, I don't consider Sheoldred, Whispering One removal, and there are better options than Nullmage Shepherd.

• Caustic Caterpillar
• Glen Elendra Archmage
• Manglehorn
• Reclamation Sage
• Abrupt Decay Probably should replace with Assassin's Trophy, but I haven't played with the potential change yet.
• Cyclonic Rift
• Mana Drain
• Muddle the Mixture Counter magic or a tutor. Many good targets to tutor for. Need removal? Abrupt Decay. Clear the board? Cyclonic Rift. Don't have Mesmeric Orb? Find Mesmeric Orb. Already have Mesmeric Orb? Find Aphetto Alchemist. Gaea's Cradle in the graveyard? Life from the Loam. Want to grab a card from exile? Riftsweeper. The list goes on.
• Nature's Claim
• Opposition
• Maze of Ith Look how many ways our deck can untap lands! The becomes repeatable removal, and also lets us still swing with Sidisi, Brood Tyrant if the board is clogged.
• Wasteland.

Hope this helps! Despite the number of changes, I still consider this the same core deck, as (1) it's clearly not a cEDH deck as the traditional win-condition combos of Laboratory Maniac, Food Chain, and Protean Hulk are missing, (2) the main win-condition is to amass a giant horde of zombies, with slight sub-themes of reanimation and using our graveyard as card selection, and (3) has the unconventional inclusion of the Eldrazi Titans to facilitate infinite zombies with the Aphetto Alchemist combo, as well as using those Eldrazi Titans as potential protection against one-shot graveyard hate effects.

@ arcane trouper:

Thanks for explaining the tweaks you've made to your deck compared to mine! I've been really swamped recently with a lot of work but hopefully by next weekend I'll be able to take a breather. By then I should be able to update the OP with what I've had in mind doing.

Love the build/primer.
It's making me think I should abuse the mill/Sidisi triggers more then I do in my build. I've got more of a Reanimator theme going with mine.

My current build is here - https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/sidisi-reanimator-tyrant-2/
Thinking of changing to this - http://decks.deckedbuilder.com/d/2018-10-28/6OGpI5b-XEaI575HdwpCLA==

EDIT: Here's the finally build I went with - https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/sidisi-reanimator-tyrant-20-with-more-zombies/

My Sidisi deck relies on her and dredge abilities to search my library for a combination of Necrotic Ooze, Phyrexian Devourer, Triskelion, Walking Ballista, or Mikaeus, The Unhallowed to combo off. The rest of the deck is pretty much creature tutors to dump bodies in the yeard, re-animate spells, and mass sacrifice effects to lock down my opponents and discourage them from killing my stuff. If you get the sac lock down, you pretty much don't need targeted removal since you can sac your own stuff to cause them to sac their board or you can force awkward situations (block the 2/2 zombie with your 5/5 and lose your 5/5). Elesh Norn is necessarily a problem either for the same reason (zombie dies, sac elesh norn). The back up win conditions involve attacking with zombies or 2/2 wolves. Wonder is a great card and makes unblockable effects largely redundant. Life from the Loam combined with Cephalid Coliseum makes for a practically unstoppable dredge, draw, and search scenario.

Finally got to take my deck out for a spin last night, and I won! Survived a couple of boardwipes before dropping an x=18 Empty the Pits and using the -3 ability on Liliana, Untouched By Death to cast things like Zombie Master, Diregraf Captain and Cemetery Reaper. At that point everyone scooped. Second game I got rolled by a massive Hydra on turn 5 and that was it...

Thank you all for your input and insight in making the deck better, your testing (both of your own takes and my builds), and your patience for my recent inactivity. I was finally able to update the OP with the most recent decklists as well as mentioning the combo archetype and how to somewhat deal with it. All three decklists were updated due to them having had changes since the last update - whether a massive change of cards (Main Build) or some subtle changes (Budget Build and Zombie Build). Please let me know if I overlooked anything! I did it a bit hastily but I have been planning this update for some time so hopefully it wasn't sloppy. Hopefully I can maintain the usefully of this thread for all those curious and/or interested. Once again, thanks!

Here's a summary of the changes:

Not sure if Mortuary is worth running if you take out Narcomoeba. (For what it's worth, I took out both in my build.)

Why are you cutting Voyaging Satyr? Your build is lite on ramp anyhow, and this is a mana dork that works well with Cabal Coffers, Gaea's Cradle, and Mesmeric Orb.

Also, regarding your take on interaction, it seems you view it as an all-or-nothing approach: either play the best, instant speed counterspells and removal to take on combo, or play little to no interaction at all. But there is middle ground! Caustic Caterpillar, Manglehorn, and Reclamation Sage provide ways to interact with your opponents. And being creatures, they follow our gameplan of keeping our creature count high. It's perplexing that you mention the likes of Leyline of the Void multiple times in your primer, but then only have Nullmage Shepherd to deal with it. And if Leyline of the Void makes an early appearance, we may never establish enough of a board presence to even activate Nullmage Shepherd.

As you mentioned tutors (specifically Demonic Tutor), a few others that I think deserve mention are Vampiric Tutor, Worldly Tutor, Diabolic Intent, and Muddle the Mixture.

Finally, as you added The Gitrog Monster, I have found Hedron Crab and Fetid Pools work well with the frog. Fetid Pools also just works well with Life from the Loam, and Hedron Crab works well with the high amount of fetch lands in the deck.